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Interview by Wan Shuyuan 2022

2022-04-23T16:54:23Z

Bebery: /* 7. 近现代东西方文学有何交流与相互影响？ */

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Links to other interviews as background information: [[2021_Interview_with_Duan_Yuanyuan]], [[Longer_interview_version_dated_March_3_2021]], [[Interview_Univerlag_2022]].

Aim: Give guidance for the field, make some provocative but true statements. Reflect current discussions both in China and internationally. Refer to Web literature work by Chen Dingjia (CASS) and to "Intellectual History" by Chen Zhongyi.

'''汉学家吴漠汀：我为何翻译中国现当代文学?'''

近年来,随着中国作家屡在国际获奖，越来越多中国现当代作家的作品开始受到世界关注。德国汉学家吴漠汀翻译了鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国作家的众多作品。

中新社记者拟以“我为何翻译中国现当代文学?”为题，采访德国汉学家吴漠汀教授。

采访问题如下：

==1. 你不仅翻译了《红楼梦》德文版本，还先后翻译了鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国近现代作家的作品。你为何钟情于中国近现代文学？==

The main reason is, that from the perspective of world literature, Chinese literature is underrepresented in the world. Regarding the quality, the Qing Red Chamber Dreams in guanhua and Lu Xun's "The True Story of Ah Q" in early baihua were among the globally best pieces of literature of their time. In general, we can say that many works of Chinese literature of the 1920s was of a world leading high quality, also because the Chinese writers were in close exchange with the national literatures of the world.

Since 1930, when the League of Left Wing Writers was founded, Chinese authors changed from writing high quality literature for literature's sake to writing literature for political purpose, they voluntarily gave up quality and international compatibility. However, even under this environment, some excellent authors emerged like the ones I translated. So we still have a few works of excellent Chinese literature today. These works are worth to be translated and to made known to the world.

This is the more the case, since we have many more e.g. English, French, Spanish and German literature translated into Chinese than the other way round. One of the reasons why not much Chinese literature is translated into foreign languages is that China as a country ranks among the countries with the lowest popularity all around the world. A major reason for that is her corruption and autocratic system. If China can reform and open up more, also its culture will naturally become more popular all around the world.

Another reason why modern Chinese literature appeals to me is the local characteristics embedded in these works. For example, Mr. Jia Pingwa's works contain a large number of dialects, local traditions unique to his hometown, etc. His works are wonderful, but the amount of his works translated is much lower than the quality of his works deserves, because these parts are difficult to be translated into foreign languages. I think these distinctive cultures are also worth spreading, and I would be happy to translate such Chinese vernacular stories and bring them to the world.

Top Chinese literature of modern and contemporary times is extremely rich. Lu Xun has shaped the new vernacular. His whole life he was torn between the need he saw for political reform and his doubts, if literature can be effective in this respect. Among all international great writers, Lu Xun was the one who even stood above the Nobel Prize of Literature, when he declined to be listed as candidate for it. With Ah Q, Kong Yiji, The Madman's Diary, he wrote the internationally most advanced and modern literature of his time. Until today it is a desideratum to publish his Complete Works in English. I translated for example his essays on the book burning in Germany.

I also translated Yu Qiuyu's History of Calligraphy, which gives foreigners an in-depth inside into this important art and its role and position in Chinese cultural history, considering it the basis of all arts and as important as music, painting and literature.

Wang Meng has not only won the hearts of Chinese readers with his nostalgic revolution love story "Long live the Youth", but has also contributed a lot to the experimental development of the stream-of-consciousness style in literature. I have translated his short story "Hard Porridge" and his autobiographical book "China - Deciphered".

I very much enjoyed to translate Han Shaogong's works "Verblassender Mond über dem verlassenen Innenhof" (空院残月), which shows a dense atmosphere of 1930s China under Japanese occupation, and "Der Zorn des Buddha" (怒目金刚), which shows the stubborness of a rule breaker and also contains some supernatural elements.

Because of the life experience I share with Xu Zechen as student at Peking University, and therefore I felt very much at home when translating his "Ah Peking!".

Zhang Wei delivers both, on the one hand very intense descriptions of the struggle of men in nature and local sceneries with "Baummoos pflücken", "Meerwind", "Auf ins Maisfeld", "Fuchs und Wein", "Herbstzorn" und "Weintrauben im Herbstregen" and on the other hand the world of cadres between good intentions and the temptations of bribery with "Rette bitte den Künstler".

Although Han Han is better known as race driver and film regisseur, e.g. for the blockbuster "Four Seas", he is a successful and skilfull writer too, so I have translated his works "Three Gates", "Glorious Days", and "His Land". Compared to Guo Jingming, who is more celebrity than author, Han Han produces high quality literature, especially with his road novel "1988: I want to talk with the world", translated by Howard Goldblatt.

I also chose to translate Mian Mian's novel "Panda Sex" because I wanted to check, if it was really "rubbish literature" as it was once claimed by a critic. I visited her in Shanghai and discovered that her works are so authentic, because he mostly described her own life experience. The novel Panda Sex was composed with an experimental writing style: Only at the end of the novel, the reader understands that the recurring quotes in the novel are actual recordings, which Mian Mian took from philosophical talks at various parties in Shanghai.

In general, to support cultural attractiveness, the so-called "soft power" with "hard power" means, e.g. financial support, can backfire. The United States was long seen as a country where poor or criminal European immigrated to. It was a country of slavery and its racism was severe even until the 1970s. Since then, the United States have reformed and earned the trust of many other countries in the world. So without investing into soft power, it naturally became a soft superpower. People all over the world eat the unhealthy American fast food, simply because the United States has an attractiveness and people feel to be part of the "land of the free" or the "American dream" when they eat the food.

As I understand it, in 2000, the Chinese National People's Congress initially proposed a "go global" strategy. The Chinese government supports the export of Chinese culture financially especially since 2007. It also supports the translation of Chinese literature and propaganda books into foreign languages. In the beginning, the policy was not applied properly. The most funding was offered for propaganda books, and not from the perspective which works of literature and which fact books can be successful abroad. This practise has become better now. However, the sales figures of Chinese books abroad are still lowered because the partnering Chinese publishing houses make the final edit of the translations and have the final say how to design the covers. They often change the colors, take away the illustrations and eye-catching cover texts.

In this way, while many Chinese literary works have great potential for worldwide success, restrictions on how books look or are presented abroad sometimes undermine that potential. China still has a way to go in enhancing its own cultural appeal, and I hope that my translations will add to the effort to bring Chinese culture to the world.
主要是因为，从世界文学的角度来看，中国文学一直保持着良好的水平。《红楼梦》和《阿Q正传》从质量上讲是当时全球最好的文学作品中的代表作。总而言之，1920年代出现了许多在世界文学领域也称得上高质量的中国文学作品，其中缘由也是因为中国作家与世界各国的文学作品进行了密切交流。

自1930年中国左翼作家联盟成立以来，中国作家从为文学而文学变成了创作政治导向的文学，他们主动放弃了质量和国际化。然而，即使在这种环境下，也还是出现了一批优秀作家作品，比如我翻译的那些作品。所以今天仍然有一些优秀的中国文学作品。这些作品值得被翻译，让世界看见。

特别是当文学作品的引进多于译出时更是如此。中国文学作品被译介到国外的数量不多，原因之一是中国作为一个国家在全世界范围内的知名度最低。一个主要原因是中国的腐败和专制制度。如果中国能够实施改革开放政策，其文化也会自然而然在世界范围内变得更受欢迎。

中国现代文学吸引我的另一个原因是这些作品中蕴含的地方特色。例如，贾平凹先生的作品中包含了大量的方言、他家乡特有的地方传统等。他的作品很精彩，但其作品的翻译量却难以反映其作品应有的质量，因为这些部分很难被翻译成外语。我认为这些独特的文化也是值得传播的，我很愿意翻译这样的中国乡土故事，把它们带到世界上。

中国现当代的顶级文学是极其丰富的。鲁迅塑造了新的白话文。他的一生都在关注所看到的政治改革的需要和他的怀疑，即文学是否能在这方面发挥作用。在所有的国际大作家中，虽然当时鲁迅拒绝被列为诺贝尔文学奖的候选人，但其实他的作品甚至上高于诺贝尔文学奖的评奖标准的。他以《阿Q正传》《孔乙己》《狂人日记》几部作品写出了当时国际上最先进的现代文学。直到今天，用英文出版他的全集仍是一个宏愿。而我就翻译了他关于德国焚书的文章。

我还翻译了余秋雨的《书法史》，让外国人深入了解这一重要艺术及其在中国文化史上的作用和地位。书法是所有艺术的基础，与音乐、绘画和文学一样重要。
王蒙不仅以其怀旧的革命爱情故事《青春万岁》赢得了中国读者的心，而且对文学中意识流风格的实验性发展做出了很大贡献。我曾翻译过他的短篇小说《坚硬的稀粥》和他的自传书《中国-解密》。
我非常喜欢翻译韩少功的作品《空院残月》和《怒目金刚》，前者展示了一个规则破坏者的顽强精神，包含了一些超自然的元素。
因为我和徐则臣有共同的生活经历，都是北京大学的学生，所以我在翻译他的《啊，北京！》时感到非常自在。

张伟的书中阐述了两种情况，一种是如《采树鳔》《海的风》《钻玉米地》《狐狸和酒》《秋天的愤怒》以及《秋雨洗葡萄》这样的作品，情感强烈地描述了人类在自然和当地风景中的斗争，另一种则是如《请挽救艺术家》这样的作品，写出了干部的世界在善意和贿赂的诱惑之间的挣扎。

虽然韩寒更多的是以赛车手和电影评论家的身份为人所知，例如，以大片《四海》而闻名，但他也是一位成功而娴熟的作家，所以我翻译了他的作品《三道门》《光辉岁月》和《他的土地》。跟与其说是作家不如说是名人的郭敬明相比，韩寒的文学作品质量很高，特别是他的公路小说《1988：我想和这个世界谈谈》，由葛浩文翻译。

而我之所以选择翻译棉棉的小说《熊猫》，也是因为我想确认一下，它是否真的如一位评论家所说的那样是“垃圾文学”。于是我在上海拜访了她，一番了解后发现，她的作品是如此的真实，因为书中主要描述的是她自己的生活经历。小说《熊猫》使用的一种实验性的写作风格：直到小说结尾，读者才会发现小说中反复出现的引用其实是真实的录音，是棉棉在上海各种聚会上录下来的哲学谈话。

一般来说，为了支持文化的吸引力，所谓的“软实力”加上“硬实力”的手段，如财政支持，会适得其反。长期以来，美国被视为贫穷或接收难民的国家。它是一个奴隶制国家，其种族主义甚至在20世纪70年代之前都很严重。从那时起，美国已经进行了改革，并赢得了世界上许多其他国家的信任。因此，在没有对软实力进行投资的情况下，它自然成为了一个软性的超级大国。世界各地的人都在吃不健康的美国快餐，只是因为美国有一种吸引力，人们在吃这些食物时感到“自由之土”或是“美国梦”的一部分。

据我所知，在2000年，中国全国人民代表大会最初提出了中国文化“走出去”的战略。中国政府在财政上支持中国文化的出口，特别是2007年以来。中国还支持将中国文学和宣传书籍翻译成外国语言。一开始，这项政策并没有得到适当的应用。大部分资金是提供给宣传书籍的，而没有从传播效果的角度来考虑。现在这种做法已经有所改善。然而，中国图书在国外的销售额仍然很低，因为合作的中国出版社对译本进行了最后的编辑，并对如何设计封面有最终决定权。他们经常改变颜色，去掉插图和醒目的封面文字。

这样一来，虽然许多中国文学作品具有被成功译介的巨大潜力，但对书籍外观或在国外展示的限制有时会影响译介进程。中国在提高自己的文化吸引力方面还有一段路要走，我希望我的翻译能够为中国文化走向世界的努力添砖加瓦。

==2. 中国近现代文学的魅力何在？翻译近现代文学如何加深了你对中国的了解？==

Modern and contemporary literature is one of the best ways to understand a country and a culture. Authors have the ability to drag readers into their thoughts, to let them participate in their line of thoughts and let them look at China through Chinese eyes.

In modern Chinese literature one can see the sparks of ancient literature colliding with foreign literature. Lu Xun, for example, is not only a famous Chinese writer, thinker and revolutionary; in the process of translating Lu Xun's works, take ''Call to the Arms'' (Nahan) as an example, this work truly depicts the social life from the Xinhai Revolution to the May Fourth period, revealing the deep-seated contradictions, profoundly analyzing and attacking the old Chinese system and stereotypes, which provides readers with a new perspective to This provides readers with a new perspective to better understand the culture and characteristics of modern China. On the other hand, with the passage of time, new generations of authors have emerged in the literary world, such as the "post-80s" literature, describing the authors born after 1980. Especially after 2000, the "post-80s" writing, mainly youth literature, has achieved a brilliant success in the literary market.

Han Han is one of the more famous post-80s literary writers. In translating Han Han's "Triple Door", I learned that Han Han is full of wisdom, he uses his own unique narrative to express his understanding of the world, and when he finds himself in tension with the world, he is able to give a clever way to solve it. Han Han uses a humoristic critical surrealism to describe phenomena of contemporary Chinese society. Difficult for the translator is, that Han Han often uses traditional proverbs and then interpretes them not by their allegoric, but by their true meaning and creates a twist in the story line. Since the proverbs have different meanings in the target culture, it takes a long time to find solutions for these frequent turning points in Han Han's stories.

The works of Han Han and Lu Xun both reflect to a certain extent their different understanding of the times, and they have their own different views on different times, and when they reflect their thoughts on the times in their books, this in itself is a way to show their charm. The views of the authors of different eras have the characteristics of the people of different eras, and in understanding their thoughts and works is also the way one can understand China step by step.

中国近现代文学是理解中国及其中国文化本身最好的方式。作家能够让读者明白他们的想法，并且让读者们参与到他们的想法中来，让他们以中国的视野来观看中国。中国近现代文学中能够看到古代文学与外国文学碰撞产生的火花。比如鲁迅，他不仅是中国著名的文学家、思想家、革命家；在对鲁迅的作品进行翻译的过程中，拿《呐喊》为例，这部作品真实描绘了从辛亥革命到五四时期的社会生活，揭示了种种深层次矛盾，对中国旧有制度以及陈腐的传统观念进行了深刻的剖析与抨击，这给读者提供了一个新的角度来更好的了解中国近现代的文化与时代特点。另一方面，随着时间的流逝，一些新兴文学登上了文学界，比如“80后”文学。“80后”写作是新世纪之初中国最重要的文化现象。2000年以后，以青春文学为主体的“80后”写作在文学市场取得了辉煌的胜利。而韩寒则是“80后”文学写作中较有名气的一位。在对韩寒《三重门》进行翻译时，我了解到韩寒充满了智慧，他用自己独特的叙述方式将他对世界的理解表达出来，另外，当他发现自己与世界的紧张关系时，他能够给予一种巧妙的方法进行解决。韩寒与鲁迅的作品都在一定程度上能够反应他们对于时代不同的理解，对于不同的时代，他们有着自己不同的看法，而当他们将自己对时代的思考在书中体现出来时，这本身就是一种魅力展现的方式。不同时代作者的看法都具备了不同时代人的特性，在了解他们的思想和作品的过程中，也可以一步步了解中国。

==3. 很多文学作品在跨文化的翻译过程中，会让作品失去原本的魅力。那么，你在翻译中国近现代文学作品时，是如何克服翻译瓶颈的？和翻译中国古典文学有何不同之处？==

It is not true, that works of literature lose their original attraction when translated into a different language. That is a prejudice. Almost all literature we read today is translated literature. If you do not translate, you only have national literatures read by local people. If you want to win the nobel prize of literature, you need to be translated at least into English, and best also into Swedish.

Every original has its specific attraction. It can be low or high. If it may be of high attraction to foreign readers - which is not always the same as to be attractive to local readers - then it is worth to be translated. When you translate, you can either make it more attractive or less attractive. This depends on a lot of factors. One is, that you need to understand and appreciate the original fully. Many Chinese readers also cannot understand and appreciate a work fully. So the ideal translator is a foreigner, who has lived in China for several years. There are almost only native speakers of the target language, who produce successful translations in the literary field. The same is true for foreign literature: If it wants to be successful in the Chinese literary market, it needs to be translated by a Chinese translator. An even more ideal translator would be an author by her or himself. So the best poetry translation is done by poets who translated into their own language.

In the education process of translators, they are told that they should master the foreign language as well as their own language. But this is not possible except for people who grew up truly bilingual. Therefore, one should translate into one's own language in order to achieve the best success.

我认为这是一种偏见，实际上文学作品在跨文化的翻译过程中，并不会失去其原本的魅力。今天我们阅读的文学作品几乎全部都是译作。如果我们不把文学作品翻译成其他文字，那么我们国家的文学作品只会拥有本土读者；如果我们想要让作品走出去，最好获得诺贝尔文学奖，那就至少得把文学作品翻译成英文，当然最好还要译成瑞典语。

每一部文学作品都拥有或多或少的独特魅力。倘若一部文学作品在外国读者看来是极具魅力的，而本国读者却意见相左，我们把它译成外国文字则是一件很有意义的事情。但是我们在翻译文学作品的时候切忌改变其原本的魅力，既不能增加一分，也不能减少一分。要做到这一点需要考虑许多因素，一个就是我们必须对该文学作品有充分的理解和鉴赏。倘若本土读者对某些国内作品也无法充分地理解和鉴赏，那么翻译该作品的最佳译者可以是那些旅居该国多年的外国译者。通常成功的文学作品翻译大多是由译作语言为母语的译者来完成的，外国文学作品的翻译也同样如此。如果一部外国文学作品想要在中国文学市场取得成功，有必要请一位中国译者来翻译该作品。如果这位译者本人还是一位作者，那是最理想的情况了。这就不难理解为什么最好的诗歌翻译都是由那些译语为母语的诗人完成的。在译者学习翻译的过程中，往往要求他们必须熟练掌握一门外语，其熟练程度等同于其母语。这一点除了那些从小在双语环境里成长的并列双语者可能实现，对于其他人几乎是不切实际的。因此，译者往往是将外国作品翻译成自己的母语时才能取得更大的成就。

==4. 过去很长一段时期，西方对中国古典文学研究较多，而对现当代文学的翻译和研究较少。曾有外国翻译家直言：“中国当代文学在西方的处境如同沙漠。”这一现象背后的原因是什么？==

Of course the world is a desert, when it comes to Chinese literature. And this is unfair, because there are actually works of literature with a high quality in China.

In Germany, non-German literature accounts for 12,5% of literature, but Chinese literature only for 0,3% of literature. However, before I engaged in translation, we had 11 Chinese literary books per year being translated into German. With my engagement, this figure has roughly doubled. How did I achieve this? I gathered a group of young sinologists in Germany, who all joined into a translators workshop. In this workshop, we now translate about 10 books from Chinese into German, most of it works of literature. With this output, we have doubled the number of books translated from Chinese into German since more than a decade now.

The reason behind the desert phenomenon is, that Chinese literature is only as popular as the country is seen by the international community. The worldwide market for Russian literature broke down since end of February 2022, and at the same time the worldwide market for Ukrainian literature has skyrocketed. Since there was no change in quality, we can see from that that there are foreign perceptions and the image of a country, which plays into it. The easiest way for Chinese literature to become celebrated around the world would be to become a country, which is even more clean and even more free than today.

当然，说到中国文学，世界的确是一片荒漠。但其实中国文学受到了不公待遇，因为中国确实有高质量的文学作品。

在德国，非德国文学占文学总量的12.5%，但中国文学只占文学的0.3%。在我从事翻译工作之前，我们每年有11本中国文学作品被翻译成德语。随着我的参与，这个数字大约翻了一番。我是如何做到这一点的呢？我在德国召集一群年轻的汉学家加入了一个翻译工作坊。我们现在将大约10本书从中文译成德文，其中大部分是文学作品。有了这个成果，十多年来，我们从中文翻译成德文的书籍数量增加了一倍。

沙漠现象背后的原因是，中国文学只有在中国进入国际社会舞台才会受到欢迎。自2022年2月底以来,俄罗斯文学的全球市场已经崩溃,而与此同时,乌克兰文学的全球市场却急剧上升。由于质量没有变化，我们可以从中看出，国家形象在其中起作用。中国文学要想在世界范围内受到赞誉，最简单的方法就是成为一个更廉洁、自由的国家

==5. 近年来，中国近现代文学在西方“遇冷”的现象有所改变吗？目前的接受程度如何？哪些类型的中国近现代文学更容易吸引欧洲读者？==

There is the underlying problem of the popularity of China as a country in general in the eyes of people in America, Europe, and Africa. Especially in the United States we have seen a drop in popularity of China from 42% pro and 38% contra in 2008 to 22% pro and 73% contra in 2020 according to the Pew Research Center. Of course this drop in popularity is partly home made. So there are concrete measures to enhance the image of China in the world, e.g. reduction of corruption, enhancement of the rule of law, reliability, trust, power control, self-criticism regarding own problems and mistakes and the taking over of as much responsibility for peace and stability in the world as much China represents one fourth of the world population and is among the two largest economies in the world.

Literature itself can contribute its share by delivering high quality literature. Although most of Chinese literature is below world literature quality since the 1930s, there are still a few works worth translating. Some contemporary writers, such as Mo Yan, Liu Cixin, Yan Lianke, Su Tong, and Yu Hua, have already gained some influence among Western readers, but many more writers are still obscure. On the whole, Chinese literature has not yet developed a stable profile with its own characteristics among Western readers.

Chinese authors could also enhance the quality of their literature by learning several languages and reading the literature of other countries in their original languages. In 1920's China, Chinese writers naturally spoke different languages and also participated in the cultural exchange and translated literature. Through this intense cultural exchange, also Lu Xun's short story "The True Story of Ah Q" was translated into French and supported by the French author Romand Rollain.

Among the literary categories, science fiction, children's literature and online literature are more popular among Western readers, including European readers, while works with strong political content are less popular. According to a study by Ariadne Consulting, the scale of overseas users of Chinese online literature has reached more than 80 million in 2020, which has a very strong appeal to Western readers.

在美国、欧洲和非洲，中国作为一个国家本身的受欢迎度不高，这也影响了中国近现代文学在全球的传播。尤其是在美国，根据皮尤研究中心(Pew Research Center)的数据，可以看到中国的受欢迎程度从2008年的42%欢迎和38%不欢迎下降到2020年的22%欢迎和73%不欢迎。这使中国近现代文学在西方的传播仍不容乐观。
中国国家在西方受欢迎程度的下降，除国际原因之外也有一部分国内原因。对此，也有一些具体的措施，例如持续减少腐败、加强法治、可信度和自我批评，提升对权力机制的监管，以及继续为世界和平稳定作出应有的贡献。
文坛自身也可以多多产出高质量文学作品。自20世纪30年代以来，中国文学有时受政治因素影响，但高质量作品仍然较为丰富。像莫言、刘慈欣、阎连科、苏童、余华等一些当代作家已经在西方读者中具有一定的影响力，但更多的作家则依旧面目模糊。从整体上来说，中国文学尚未在西方读者中形成具有自身特色的稳定形象。中国作家可以多阅读其他国家的文学作品，达到取长补短、兼收并蓄的效果。例如在20世纪20年代的中国，中国作家如鲁迅就积极参与文化交流和翻译。通过这种激烈的文化交流，鲁迅的短篇小说《阿Q正传》被翻译成法文，并得到了法国作家罗曼•罗兰的支持。
在文学类别中，科幻小说、儿童文学以及网络文学是西方读者包括欧洲读者较为欢迎的，而政治性强的作品则不太受欢迎。据艾瑞咨询研究显示，2020年中国网络文学海外用户规模已达到八千万以上，对西方读者有非常强的吸引力。

==6. 你扎实的语言基本功和翻译水平使你的作品在欧美汉学界引起了广泛关注。你认为翻译中国近现代文学能为中西文化交流做出怎样的贡献？==

If we want to better the situation of cultural exchange and mutual understanding, we may reform the country to make it more popular. We also need to bring people together. To get to know someone from the other country often changes the attitude towards the country. This can start with school partnerships and end with city partnerships. Of course there also needs to be found a long term solution between China's self-chosen isolation due to the Zero-Covid strategy and the open world around China.

We can also catch the attention of foreign readers with other cultural phenomena, which are received favorably. For example, the blockbuster movies of the 5th generation Chinese film directors has extremely pushed the reception of Chinese works of literature. Red Sorghum, Ju Dou, Life etc. are all works of literature adapted to films.

Another way is to introduce Chinese food culture with films like "The Wedding Banquet" or "Eat, drink, man, women" or Chinese martial arts with "Crouching Tiger, hidden dragon".

Moreover, the best way to understand a people a country a culture is by reading its modern literature. Through the text, the author can lead the reader into his mind and engage the reader in the trajectory of his thoughts, so that the reader can understand China through the eyes of the Chinese and break down prejudices. For example, An Lezhe and Luo Siwen's attempt to find a way out from a comparative philosophical perspective in their interpretation of the ''Analects'' successfully transmits ancient Chinese philosophical thought to the English-speaking world. Also Yu Dan's ''Confucius from the Heart'' has helped to export Confucian ideas internationally.

如果我们想要改善文化交流和相互理解的状况，除了上面罗列的方法之外，我们还需要让人们团结起来。通常来说，当人们真正了解了来自一个国家的人，他们常常会改变对这个国家的态度。因此我们可以多多与其他国家内部建立学校伙伴关系和城市伙伴关系等。当然，由于中国现在采取“清零”战略，选择自我隔离，而中国周边世界已经开放，我们需要找到一个行之有效的解决方案。
也可以用其他文化方式来吸引外国读者的注意，这个方法很受欢迎。例如，中国第五代电影导演拍摄的大片极大地推动了西方对中国文学作品的接受，比如《红高粱》《菊豆》《人生》等都是改编成电影的文学作品。
另外还通过电影《婚宴》《饮食男女》等来介绍中国的饮食文化，或者通过电影《卧虎藏龙》来介绍中国的武术。
此外，了解一个民族一个国家一种文化的最好方式就是通过阅读现代文学。通过文字，作者可以带领读者进入他的思想，让读者参与他的思想轨迹，使读者能够通过中国人的眼睛了解中国，打破偏见。比如安乐哲和罗思文对《论语》进行阐释时尝试从比较哲学角度寻找出路，成功地把中国古代哲学思想传到英语世界。于丹的《论语心得》也有助于在国际上传播儒学。

==7. 近现代东西方文学有何交流与相互影响？==

China and the West in modern times has been the Western missionaries who came to China, the foreign students, and the overseas Chinese who emigrated. Western missionaries introduced classical Chinese literature to the West, such as James Legge who was one of the first to publish the Chinese Classics in English, whose purpose was to introduce Eastern culture, philosophical thought and customs to Western readers.

Chinese scholars, such as Zhu Shenghao, were among the first Chinese translators of Shakespeare's works, Guo Moruo of Goethe's works, and the quality and style of their translations are recognized by Shakespearean researchers at home and abroad. The mutual exchange of Eastern and Western literature in modern times has not only promoted the development of Chinese literature, but also enriched world literature. The rich variety of Western literature provides more choices for Chinese reading, not only ''Romeo and Juliet'' love stories, but also anti-utopian literature like ''Animal Farm''. Chinese literature also brings something different to the West in terms of vision and experience. Based on his international readings, Mo Yan has created his vernacular works, which give Western readers a sense of the Chinese vernacular.

The exchange of literature is rising. Currently, we have a peak in German children literature licences going to China.

Also, more Chinese literature is translated into foreign languages, also due to the sponsorship program by the government.

However, printing books with money does not replace a missing market demand. Only if the market itself asks for Chinese books, Chinese literature will increase its worldwide presence. And if that happens, sponsorship is also not needed any more and could be reduced to the much smaller budgets of translation sponsorship we see in other countries.

近代以来中西文化交流的主力是来华的西方传教士、留学生和移民海外的华侨华人。西方传教士把中国古典文学介绍到了西方，比如理雅各出版了《中国经典》的第一卷，其目的就是为了向西方读者介绍东方的文化、哲学思想和风土人情。
还有中国的有识之士如朱生豪是中国翻译莎士比亚作品较早的人之一，郭沫若是歌德作品最早翻译家之一，其译文质量和风格卓具特色，为国内外莎士比亚研究者所公认。
近现代东西方文学相互交流，不仅促进了中国文学的发展，而且还丰富了世界文学。西方文学种类丰富，为中国人阅读提供了更多选择，不仅有《罗密欧与朱丽叶》这样的爱情故事，也有《动物农场》之类的反乌托邦文学。中国文学也会给西方带来一些不一样的视野和体验。莫言在读获得诺贝尔文学奖的全球文学作品的基础上写了乡土作品，让西方读者真切感受到中国的乡土人情。
文学的交流正在增强。目前，德国儿童文学在中传播正处于高峰。
此外，更多的中国文学作品被翻译成外语，这也是由于政府的赞助计划。
然而，资本的力量并不能取代缺失的市场需求。只有当市场本身需要中国书籍时，中国文学才会增加其在全世界的影响力。如果这样，就同其他国家一样，赞助也就几乎不再需要了。

=受访者简介：=

吴漠汀(Martin Woesler)，男，生于1969年，德国著名汉学家、欧洲科学院院士、欧盟让•莫内讲席教授，德国维藤大学研究院、曾任德国慕尼黑应用语言大学中文系主任、罗马第三大学讲席教授、美国由他谷大学副教授。2019年9月受聘湖南师范大学潇湘学者特聘教授。主要研究领域为《红楼梦》、比较文学、翻译、跨文化交流、中国现当代文学。他通晓德语、汉语、英语，先后翻译鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国作家的作品。他同史华慈（Rainer Schwarz)先生共同翻译完成的《红楼梦》,是《红楼梦》首部完整德文译本。荣获2020年度中国政府友谊奖。

参考资料

https://www.sohu.com/a/442142_106055

外国翻译家：中国当代文学在西方的处境如同沙漠
2014-10-30 12:13

在昨天举行的一场“汉学与当代中国”座谈会上，面对采访的几位国外翻译家表示对中国当代文学作品在国外的翻译出版很不乐观，他们毫不留情地用“太差了”、“沙漠”、“怪怪的”等来形容中国当代文学在西方的处境，令记者感到意外。

怎么了

俄罗斯曾经三年没出版一本中国当代文学书籍

俄罗斯圣彼得堡国立大学东方系常务副主任罗季奥诺夫很形象的控诉中国当代文学在俄罗斯的“惨状”：“与政治经济的热相比，中国文学在俄罗斯不能说是冷的，但至少是凉的。”罗季奥诺夫介绍，“翻译逆差明显，达到了20倍，俄罗斯的80后和90后根本就不知道当代中国文学是什么，他们只了解西方文学。”

据他统计，1990年到2005年这15年间，中国当代文学在俄罗斯一共只出版了8本书，平均两年一本，“简直是沙漠”，2005年到2008年因为有合作项目，出版了几本书，2008年金融危机后到2010年的3年间，一本书也没有，2011年出版了1本，才卖出去1000册，2012年好一点，出版了2本，一共卖出去8300册。

加拿大西门菲莎大学教授、汉学家Jan Walls痴迷中国文化，不但给自己起了个地道的中文名字王健，还会表演数来宝。“我注意到，2013年我们的作家门罗得了诺贝尔文学奖后，中国的出版社出版了9本她的小说，而2012年莫言得了诺奖后，却没有同等的待遇，加拿大并没有因为莫言得奖就多出版他的书。”王健说，加拿大的汉学家和翻译家不少，但有个共同的“毛病”，就是重视中国古典文学，轻视中国当代文学，包括他自己，作为叶嘉莹的学生，也更喜欢翻译古诗词。

西班牙马德里自治大学东亚研究中心主任、翻译家达西安娜·菲萨克，在上世纪80年代就翻译了大量的巴金、钱钟书等名家的作品到西班牙。她也直言中国当代文学在西班牙的境况不乐观。

为什么

中国当代作品的翻译连资深汉学家都发憷

对于中国当代文学作品不被国外接受的另外一个原因，是跨文化的翻译过程让作品失去了其魅力。土耳其安卡拉大学中文系主任欧凯带着几个中文流利的博士生来中国交流，他指了指自己的学生，“土耳其目前中国文学的大部分译者都是我的学生，我不应该这样直接批评我的学生，但我必须要说，翻译得太差了，很多错误。”

欧凯的手机里面存着许多张图书的图片，每一张里都有用红色笔圈出来的字句。欧凯向《北京晚报》记者展示这些他随时翻看的翻译作品，其中有铁凝的《永远有多远》，欧凯很喜欢铁凝的文字，“可是你看，这本书的名字就翻译错了，还有王刚的作品《英格力士》，书名直接翻译成《英语》了，这怎么能一样呢。”欧凯又翻到一本莫言的作品，其中的“八路”翻译成了“第八大道”：“他们不了解中国文化，不了解创作背后的含义，如果我是普通读者，到书店里拿起这样一本书翻一下，根本不会去买。”

这种翻译的困难有时也并不只是年轻的译者中文水平有限所致，而是中西文化差异过大。菲萨克告诉记者，尽管已经有三十年的翻译经验，但是在翻译当代作品时还是发憷：“翻译当代的文学作品有些困难，大部分都是通过英文和法文的译本再翻译成西班牙文。”这样就造成了二次转述中和原文更大的误差。她还提到，中国曾经组织了一批西班牙语好的外语人才，将中国作品翻译到西班牙。“我不认为这种做法可行，因为我看了书以后，觉得语言都是怪怪的，读者看过之后可能更觉得中国是个距离遥远的文化了。”

怎么办

这事儿需要政府牵引靠个人力量肯定不行

欧凯的建议很直接，希望土耳其政府和中国政府共同为翻译作品的质量把关。“政府必须介入，之前的翻译都是很个人的事情，喜欢哪本书，跟出版社说，就开始翻译，根本无法保证翻译的质量。”欧凯认为，可以成立一个委员会，监督和审查翻译的质量，为作品严格把关，“这件事情肯定要政府去做，靠个人的力量是不行的。”

罗季奥诺夫则提出了具体的建议，希望俄罗斯的孔子学院和中国作家协会合作推出翻译项目，“不但要翻译，更要推广，不是把书出版就行了，还要大力推广，比如莫言和余华这样一批有名气的中国作家，完全可以走商业宣传的方式。”罗季奥诺夫也敏感地提出，在翻译作品时要特别注意本土读者的接受程度：“我发现很多在中国特别受欢迎的作品，俄罗斯人很不喜欢，甚至还会反感，引起对于中国人的误解，挑选什么样的文学作品很关键。”

菲萨克一直以来担心的西班牙“缺少真正懂中文的人”的人才不足问题，随着2008年西班牙大学开始招收本科汉语专业的学生有了很大改变，可以寄希望于后辈：“目前已经培养了一批年轻的汉学家，真正在搞翻译，真正因为喜欢中国文学才会做这件事。”

同样为人才担心的加拿大学者王健也说，别看加拿大面积大，但是人口还不及云南省的人口，翻译人才就更少了。“现在有一个现象，是中国移民到加拿大，在大学继续学习中国文学的学者们，有这样一批中青年学者在从事翻译工作，都是自发的。”王健说。本报记者陈梦溪返回搜狐，查看更多

Interview by Wan Shuyuan 2022

2022-04-23T16:45:03Z

Bebery: /* 6. 你扎实的语言基本功和翻译水平使你的作品在欧美汉学界引起了广泛关注。你认为翻译中国近现代文学能为中西文化交流做出怎样的贡献？ */

Back to [[JM]] page

Links to other interviews as background information: [[2021_Interview_with_Duan_Yuanyuan]], [[Longer_interview_version_dated_March_3_2021]], [[Interview_Univerlag_2022]].

Aim: Give guidance for the field, make some provocative but true statements. Reflect current discussions both in China and internationally. Refer to Web literature work by Chen Dingjia (CASS) and to "Intellectual History" by Chen Zhongyi.

'''汉学家吴漠汀：我为何翻译中国现当代文学?'''

近年来,随着中国作家屡在国际获奖，越来越多中国现当代作家的作品开始受到世界关注。德国汉学家吴漠汀翻译了鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国作家的众多作品。

中新社记者拟以“我为何翻译中国现当代文学?”为题，采访德国汉学家吴漠汀教授。

采访问题如下：

==1. 你不仅翻译了《红楼梦》德文版本，还先后翻译了鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国近现代作家的作品。你为何钟情于中国近现代文学？==

The main reason is, that from the perspective of world literature, Chinese literature is underrepresented in the world. Regarding the quality, the Qing Red Chamber Dreams in guanhua and Lu Xun's "The True Story of Ah Q" in early baihua were among the globally best pieces of literature of their time. In general, we can say that many works of Chinese literature of the 1920s was of a world leading high quality, also because the Chinese writers were in close exchange with the national literatures of the world.

Since 1930, when the League of Left Wing Writers was founded, Chinese authors changed from writing high quality literature for literature's sake to writing literature for political purpose, they voluntarily gave up quality and international compatibility. However, even under this environment, some excellent authors emerged like the ones I translated. So we still have a few works of excellent Chinese literature today. These works are worth to be translated and to made known to the world.

This is the more the case, since we have many more e.g. English, French, Spanish and German literature translated into Chinese than the other way round. One of the reasons why not much Chinese literature is translated into foreign languages is that China as a country ranks among the countries with the lowest popularity all around the world. A major reason for that is her corruption and autocratic system. If China can reform and open up more, also its culture will naturally become more popular all around the world.

Another reason why modern Chinese literature appeals to me is the local characteristics embedded in these works. For example, Mr. Jia Pingwa's works contain a large number of dialects, local traditions unique to his hometown, etc. His works are wonderful, but the amount of his works translated is much lower than the quality of his works deserves, because these parts are difficult to be translated into foreign languages. I think these distinctive cultures are also worth spreading, and I would be happy to translate such Chinese vernacular stories and bring them to the world.

Top Chinese literature of modern and contemporary times is extremely rich. Lu Xun has shaped the new vernacular. His whole life he was torn between the need he saw for political reform and his doubts, if literature can be effective in this respect. Among all international great writers, Lu Xun was the one who even stood above the Nobel Prize of Literature, when he declined to be listed as candidate for it. With Ah Q, Kong Yiji, The Madman's Diary, he wrote the internationally most advanced and modern literature of his time. Until today it is a desideratum to publish his Complete Works in English. I translated for example his essays on the book burning in Germany.

I also translated Yu Qiuyu's History of Calligraphy, which gives foreigners an in-depth inside into this important art and its role and position in Chinese cultural history, considering it the basis of all arts and as important as music, painting and literature.

Wang Meng has not only won the hearts of Chinese readers with his nostalgic revolution love story "Long live the Youth", but has also contributed a lot to the experimental development of the stream-of-consciousness style in literature. I have translated his short story "Hard Porridge" and his autobiographical book "China - Deciphered".

I very much enjoyed to translate Han Shaogong's works "Verblassender Mond über dem verlassenen Innenhof" (空院残月), which shows a dense atmosphere of 1930s China under Japanese occupation, and "Der Zorn des Buddha" (怒目金刚), which shows the stubborness of a rule breaker and also contains some supernatural elements.

Because of the life experience I share with Xu Zechen as student at Peking University, and therefore I felt very much at home when translating his "Ah Peking!".

Zhang Wei delivers both, on the one hand very intense descriptions of the struggle of men in nature and local sceneries with "Baummoos pflücken", "Meerwind", "Auf ins Maisfeld", "Fuchs und Wein", "Herbstzorn" und "Weintrauben im Herbstregen" and on the other hand the world of cadres between good intentions and the temptations of bribery with "Rette bitte den Künstler".

Although Han Han is better known as race driver and film regisseur, e.g. for the blockbuster "Four Seas", he is a successful and skilfull writer too, so I have translated his works "Three Gates", "Glorious Days", and "His Land". Compared to Guo Jingming, who is more celebrity than author, Han Han produces high quality literature, especially with his road novel "1988: I want to talk with the world", translated by Howard Goldblatt.

I also chose to translate Mian Mian's novel "Panda Sex" because I wanted to check, if it was really "rubbish literature" as it was once claimed by a critic. I visited her in Shanghai and discovered that her works are so authentic, because he mostly described her own life experience. The novel Panda Sex was composed with an experimental writing style: Only at the end of the novel, the reader understands that the recurring quotes in the novel are actual recordings, which Mian Mian took from philosophical talks at various parties in Shanghai.

In general, to support cultural attractiveness, the so-called "soft power" with "hard power" means, e.g. financial support, can backfire. The United States was long seen as a country where poor or criminal European immigrated to. It was a country of slavery and its racism was severe even until the 1970s. Since then, the United States have reformed and earned the trust of many other countries in the world. So without investing into soft power, it naturally became a soft superpower. People all over the world eat the unhealthy American fast food, simply because the United States has an attractiveness and people feel to be part of the "land of the free" or the "American dream" when they eat the food.

As I understand it, in 2000, the Chinese National People's Congress initially proposed a "go global" strategy. The Chinese government supports the export of Chinese culture financially especially since 2007. It also supports the translation of Chinese literature and propaganda books into foreign languages. In the beginning, the policy was not applied properly. The most funding was offered for propaganda books, and not from the perspective which works of literature and which fact books can be successful abroad. This practise has become better now. However, the sales figures of Chinese books abroad are still lowered because the partnering Chinese publishing houses make the final edit of the translations and have the final say how to design the covers. They often change the colors, take away the illustrations and eye-catching cover texts.

In this way, while many Chinese literary works have great potential for worldwide success, restrictions on how books look or are presented abroad sometimes undermine that potential. China still has a way to go in enhancing its own cultural appeal, and I hope that my translations will add to the effort to bring Chinese culture to the world.
主要是因为，从世界文学的角度来看，中国文学一直保持着良好的水平。《红楼梦》和《阿Q正传》从质量上讲是当时全球最好的文学作品中的代表作。总而言之，1920年代出现了许多在世界文学领域也称得上高质量的中国文学作品，其中缘由也是因为中国作家与世界各国的文学作品进行了密切交流。

自1930年中国左翼作家联盟成立以来，中国作家从为文学而文学变成了创作政治导向的文学，他们主动放弃了质量和国际化。然而，即使在这种环境下，也还是出现了一批优秀作家作品，比如我翻译的那些作品。所以今天仍然有一些优秀的中国文学作品。这些作品值得被翻译，让世界看见。

特别是当文学作品的引进多于译出时更是如此。中国文学作品被译介到国外的数量不多，原因之一是中国作为一个国家在全世界范围内的知名度最低。一个主要原因是中国的腐败和专制制度。如果中国能够实施改革开放政策，其文化也会自然而然在世界范围内变得更受欢迎。

中国现代文学吸引我的另一个原因是这些作品中蕴含的地方特色。例如，贾平凹先生的作品中包含了大量的方言、他家乡特有的地方传统等。他的作品很精彩，但其作品的翻译量却难以反映其作品应有的质量，因为这些部分很难被翻译成外语。我认为这些独特的文化也是值得传播的，我很愿意翻译这样的中国乡土故事，把它们带到世界上。

中国现当代的顶级文学是极其丰富的。鲁迅塑造了新的白话文。他的一生都在关注所看到的政治改革的需要和他的怀疑，即文学是否能在这方面发挥作用。在所有的国际大作家中，虽然当时鲁迅拒绝被列为诺贝尔文学奖的候选人，但其实他的作品甚至上高于诺贝尔文学奖的评奖标准的。他以《阿Q正传》《孔乙己》《狂人日记》几部作品写出了当时国际上最先进的现代文学。直到今天，用英文出版他的全集仍是一个宏愿。而我就翻译了他关于德国焚书的文章。

我还翻译了余秋雨的《书法史》，让外国人深入了解这一重要艺术及其在中国文化史上的作用和地位。书法是所有艺术的基础，与音乐、绘画和文学一样重要。
王蒙不仅以其怀旧的革命爱情故事《青春万岁》赢得了中国读者的心，而且对文学中意识流风格的实验性发展做出了很大贡献。我曾翻译过他的短篇小说《坚硬的稀粥》和他的自传书《中国-解密》。
我非常喜欢翻译韩少功的作品《空院残月》和《怒目金刚》，前者展示了一个规则破坏者的顽强精神，包含了一些超自然的元素。
因为我和徐则臣有共同的生活经历，都是北京大学的学生，所以我在翻译他的《啊，北京！》时感到非常自在。

张伟的书中阐述了两种情况，一种是如《采树鳔》《海的风》《钻玉米地》《狐狸和酒》《秋天的愤怒》以及《秋雨洗葡萄》这样的作品，情感强烈地描述了人类在自然和当地风景中的斗争，另一种则是如《请挽救艺术家》这样的作品，写出了干部的世界在善意和贿赂的诱惑之间的挣扎。

虽然韩寒更多的是以赛车手和电影评论家的身份为人所知，例如，以大片《四海》而闻名，但他也是一位成功而娴熟的作家，所以我翻译了他的作品《三道门》《光辉岁月》和《他的土地》。跟与其说是作家不如说是名人的郭敬明相比，韩寒的文学作品质量很高，特别是他的公路小说《1988：我想和这个世界谈谈》，由葛浩文翻译。

而我之所以选择翻译棉棉的小说《熊猫》，也是因为我想确认一下，它是否真的如一位评论家所说的那样是“垃圾文学”。于是我在上海拜访了她，一番了解后发现，她的作品是如此的真实，因为书中主要描述的是她自己的生活经历。小说《熊猫》使用的一种实验性的写作风格：直到小说结尾，读者才会发现小说中反复出现的引用其实是真实的录音，是棉棉在上海各种聚会上录下来的哲学谈话。

一般来说，为了支持文化的吸引力，所谓的“软实力”加上“硬实力”的手段，如财政支持，会适得其反。长期以来，美国被视为贫穷或接收难民的国家。它是一个奴隶制国家，其种族主义甚至在20世纪70年代之前都很严重。从那时起，美国已经进行了改革，并赢得了世界上许多其他国家的信任。因此，在没有对软实力进行投资的情况下，它自然成为了一个软性的超级大国。世界各地的人都在吃不健康的美国快餐，只是因为美国有一种吸引力，人们在吃这些食物时感到“自由之土”或是“美国梦”的一部分。

据我所知，在2000年，中国全国人民代表大会最初提出了中国文化“走出去”的战略。中国政府在财政上支持中国文化的出口，特别是2007年以来。中国还支持将中国文学和宣传书籍翻译成外国语言。一开始，这项政策并没有得到适当的应用。大部分资金是提供给宣传书籍的，而没有从传播效果的角度来考虑。现在这种做法已经有所改善。然而，中国图书在国外的销售额仍然很低，因为合作的中国出版社对译本进行了最后的编辑，并对如何设计封面有最终决定权。他们经常改变颜色，去掉插图和醒目的封面文字。

这样一来，虽然许多中国文学作品具有被成功译介的巨大潜力，但对书籍外观或在国外展示的限制有时会影响译介进程。中国在提高自己的文化吸引力方面还有一段路要走，我希望我的翻译能够为中国文化走向世界的努力添砖加瓦。

==2. 中国近现代文学的魅力何在？翻译近现代文学如何加深了你对中国的了解？==

Modern and contemporary literature is one of the best ways to understand a country and a culture. Authors have the ability to drag readers into their thoughts, to let them participate in their line of thoughts and let them look at China through Chinese eyes.

In modern Chinese literature one can see the sparks of ancient literature colliding with foreign literature. Lu Xun, for example, is not only a famous Chinese writer, thinker and revolutionary; in the process of translating Lu Xun's works, take ''Call to the Arms'' (Nahan) as an example, this work truly depicts the social life from the Xinhai Revolution to the May Fourth period, revealing the deep-seated contradictions, profoundly analyzing and attacking the old Chinese system and stereotypes, which provides readers with a new perspective to This provides readers with a new perspective to better understand the culture and characteristics of modern China. On the other hand, with the passage of time, new generations of authors have emerged in the literary world, such as the "post-80s" literature, describing the authors born after 1980. Especially after 2000, the "post-80s" writing, mainly youth literature, has achieved a brilliant success in the literary market.

Han Han is one of the more famous post-80s literary writers. In translating Han Han's "Triple Door", I learned that Han Han is full of wisdom, he uses his own unique narrative to express his understanding of the world, and when he finds himself in tension with the world, he is able to give a clever way to solve it. Han Han uses a humoristic critical surrealism to describe phenomena of contemporary Chinese society. Difficult for the translator is, that Han Han often uses traditional proverbs and then interpretes them not by their allegoric, but by their true meaning and creates a twist in the story line. Since the proverbs have different meanings in the target culture, it takes a long time to find solutions for these frequent turning points in Han Han's stories.

The works of Han Han and Lu Xun both reflect to a certain extent their different understanding of the times, and they have their own different views on different times, and when they reflect their thoughts on the times in their books, this in itself is a way to show their charm. The views of the authors of different eras have the characteristics of the people of different eras, and in understanding their thoughts and works is also the way one can understand China step by step.

中国近现代文学是理解中国及其中国文化本身最好的方式。作家能够让读者明白他们的想法，并且让读者们参与到他们的想法中来，让他们以中国的视野来观看中国。中国近现代文学中能够看到古代文学与外国文学碰撞产生的火花。比如鲁迅，他不仅是中国著名的文学家、思想家、革命家；在对鲁迅的作品进行翻译的过程中，拿《呐喊》为例，这部作品真实描绘了从辛亥革命到五四时期的社会生活，揭示了种种深层次矛盾，对中国旧有制度以及陈腐的传统观念进行了深刻的剖析与抨击，这给读者提供了一个新的角度来更好的了解中国近现代的文化与时代特点。另一方面，随着时间的流逝，一些新兴文学登上了文学界，比如“80后”文学。“80后”写作是新世纪之初中国最重要的文化现象。2000年以后，以青春文学为主体的“80后”写作在文学市场取得了辉煌的胜利。而韩寒则是“80后”文学写作中较有名气的一位。在对韩寒《三重门》进行翻译时，我了解到韩寒充满了智慧，他用自己独特的叙述方式将他对世界的理解表达出来，另外，当他发现自己与世界的紧张关系时，他能够给予一种巧妙的方法进行解决。韩寒与鲁迅的作品都在一定程度上能够反应他们对于时代不同的理解，对于不同的时代，他们有着自己不同的看法，而当他们将自己对时代的思考在书中体现出来时，这本身就是一种魅力展现的方式。不同时代作者的看法都具备了不同时代人的特性，在了解他们的思想和作品的过程中，也可以一步步了解中国。

==3. 很多文学作品在跨文化的翻译过程中，会让作品失去原本的魅力。那么，你在翻译中国近现代文学作品时，是如何克服翻译瓶颈的？和翻译中国古典文学有何不同之处？==

It is not true, that works of literature lose their original attraction when translated into a different language. That is a prejudice. Almost all literature we read today is translated literature. If you do not translate, you only have national literatures read by local people. If you want to win the nobel prize of literature, you need to be translated at least into English, and best also into Swedish.

Every original has its specific attraction. It can be low or high. If it may be of high attraction to foreign readers - which is not always the same as to be attractive to local readers - then it is worth to be translated. When you translate, you can either make it more attractive or less attractive. This depends on a lot of factors. One is, that you need to understand and appreciate the original fully. Many Chinese readers also cannot understand and appreciate a work fully. So the ideal translator is a foreigner, who has lived in China for several years. There are almost only native speakers of the target language, who produce successful translations in the literary field. The same is true for foreign literature: If it wants to be successful in the Chinese literary market, it needs to be translated by a Chinese translator. An even more ideal translator would be an author by her or himself. So the best poetry translation is done by poets who translated into their own language.

In the education process of translators, they are told that they should master the foreign language as well as their own language. But this is not possible except for people who grew up truly bilingual. Therefore, one should translate into one's own language in order to achieve the best success.

我认为这是一种偏见，实际上文学作品在跨文化的翻译过程中，并不会失去其原本的魅力。今天我们阅读的文学作品几乎全部都是译作。如果我们不把文学作品翻译成其他文字，那么我们国家的文学作品只会拥有本土读者；如果我们想要让作品走出去，最好获得诺贝尔文学奖，那就至少得把文学作品翻译成英文，当然最好还要译成瑞典语。

每一部文学作品都拥有或多或少的独特魅力。倘若一部文学作品在外国读者看来是极具魅力的，而本国读者却意见相左，我们把它译成外国文字则是一件很有意义的事情。但是我们在翻译文学作品的时候切忌改变其原本的魅力，既不能增加一分，也不能减少一分。要做到这一点需要考虑许多因素，一个就是我们必须对该文学作品有充分的理解和鉴赏。倘若本土读者对某些国内作品也无法充分地理解和鉴赏，那么翻译该作品的最佳译者可以是那些旅居该国多年的外国译者。通常成功的文学作品翻译大多是由译作语言为母语的译者来完成的，外国文学作品的翻译也同样如此。如果一部外国文学作品想要在中国文学市场取得成功，有必要请一位中国译者来翻译该作品。如果这位译者本人还是一位作者，那是最理想的情况了。这就不难理解为什么最好的诗歌翻译都是由那些译语为母语的诗人完成的。在译者学习翻译的过程中，往往要求他们必须熟练掌握一门外语，其熟练程度等同于其母语。这一点除了那些从小在双语环境里成长的并列双语者可能实现，对于其他人几乎是不切实际的。因此，译者往往是将外国作品翻译成自己的母语时才能取得更大的成就。

==4. 过去很长一段时期，西方对中国古典文学研究较多，而对现当代文学的翻译和研究较少。曾有外国翻译家直言：“中国当代文学在西方的处境如同沙漠。”这一现象背后的原因是什么？==

Of course the world is a desert, when it comes to Chinese literature. And this is unfair, because there are actually works of literature with a high quality in China.

In Germany, non-German literature accounts for 12,5% of literature, but Chinese literature only for 0,3% of literature. However, before I engaged in translation, we had 11 Chinese literary books per year being translated into German. With my engagement, this figure has roughly doubled. How did I achieve this? I gathered a group of young sinologists in Germany, who all joined into a translators workshop. In this workshop, we now translate about 10 books from Chinese into German, most of it works of literature. With this output, we have doubled the number of books translated from Chinese into German since more than a decade now.

The reason behind the desert phenomenon is, that Chinese literature is only as popular as the country is seen by the international community. The worldwide market for Russian literature broke down since end of February 2022, and at the same time the worldwide market for Ukrainian literature has skyrocketed. Since there was no change in quality, we can see from that that there are foreign perceptions and the image of a country, which plays into it. The easiest way for Chinese literature to become celebrated around the world would be to become a country, which is even more clean and even more free than today.

当然，说到中国文学，世界的确是一片荒漠。但其实中国文学受到了不公待遇，因为中国确实有高质量的文学作品。

在德国，非德国文学占文学总量的12.5%，但中国文学只占文学的0.3%。在我从事翻译工作之前，我们每年有11本中国文学作品被翻译成德语。随着我的参与，这个数字大约翻了一番。我是如何做到这一点的呢？我在德国召集一群年轻的汉学家加入了一个翻译工作坊。我们现在将大约10本书从中文译成德文，其中大部分是文学作品。有了这个成果，十多年来，我们从中文翻译成德文的书籍数量增加了一倍。

沙漠现象背后的原因是，中国文学只有在中国进入国际社会舞台才会受到欢迎。自2022年2月底以来,俄罗斯文学的全球市场已经崩溃,而与此同时,乌克兰文学的全球市场却急剧上升。由于质量没有变化，我们可以从中看出，国家形象在其中起作用。中国文学要想在世界范围内受到赞誉，最简单的方法就是成为一个更廉洁、自由的国家

==5. 近年来，中国近现代文学在西方“遇冷”的现象有所改变吗？目前的接受程度如何？哪些类型的中国近现代文学更容易吸引欧洲读者？==

There is the underlying problem of the popularity of China as a country in general in the eyes of people in America, Europe, and Africa. Especially in the United States we have seen a drop in popularity of China from 42% pro and 38% contra in 2008 to 22% pro and 73% contra in 2020 according to the Pew Research Center. Of course this drop in popularity is partly home made. So there are concrete measures to enhance the image of China in the world, e.g. reduction of corruption, enhancement of the rule of law, reliability, trust, power control, self-criticism regarding own problems and mistakes and the taking over of as much responsibility for peace and stability in the world as much China represents one fourth of the world population and is among the two largest economies in the world.

Literature itself can contribute its share by delivering high quality literature. Although most of Chinese literature is below world literature quality since the 1930s, there are still a few works worth translating. Some contemporary writers, such as Mo Yan, Liu Cixin, Yan Lianke, Su Tong, and Yu Hua, have already gained some influence among Western readers, but many more writers are still obscure. On the whole, Chinese literature has not yet developed a stable profile with its own characteristics among Western readers.

Chinese authors could also enhance the quality of their literature by learning several languages and reading the literature of other countries in their original languages. In 1920's China, Chinese writers naturally spoke different languages and also participated in the cultural exchange and translated literature. Through this intense cultural exchange, also Lu Xun's short story "The True Story of Ah Q" was translated into French and supported by the French author Romand Rollain.

Among the literary categories, science fiction, children's literature and online literature are more popular among Western readers, including European readers, while works with strong political content are less popular. According to a study by Ariadne Consulting, the scale of overseas users of Chinese online literature has reached more than 80 million in 2020, which has a very strong appeal to Western readers.

在美国、欧洲和非洲，中国作为一个国家本身的受欢迎度不高，这也影响了中国近现代文学在全球的传播。尤其是在美国，根据皮尤研究中心(Pew Research Center)的数据，可以看到中国的受欢迎程度从2008年的42%欢迎和38%不欢迎下降到2020年的22%欢迎和73%不欢迎。这使中国近现代文学在西方的传播仍不容乐观。
中国国家在西方受欢迎程度的下降，除国际原因之外也有一部分国内原因。对此，也有一些具体的措施，例如持续减少腐败、加强法治、可信度和自我批评，提升对权力机制的监管，以及继续为世界和平稳定作出应有的贡献。
文坛自身也可以多多产出高质量文学作品。自20世纪30年代以来，中国文学有时受政治因素影响，但高质量作品仍然较为丰富。像莫言、刘慈欣、阎连科、苏童、余华等一些当代作家已经在西方读者中具有一定的影响力，但更多的作家则依旧面目模糊。从整体上来说，中国文学尚未在西方读者中形成具有自身特色的稳定形象。中国作家可以多阅读其他国家的文学作品，达到取长补短、兼收并蓄的效果。例如在20世纪20年代的中国，中国作家如鲁迅就积极参与文化交流和翻译。通过这种激烈的文化交流，鲁迅的短篇小说《阿Q正传》被翻译成法文，并得到了法国作家罗曼•罗兰的支持。
在文学类别中，科幻小说、儿童文学以及网络文学是西方读者包括欧洲读者较为欢迎的，而政治性强的作品则不太受欢迎。据艾瑞咨询研究显示，2020年中国网络文学海外用户规模已达到八千万以上，对西方读者有非常强的吸引力。

==6. 你扎实的语言基本功和翻译水平使你的作品在欧美汉学界引起了广泛关注。你认为翻译中国近现代文学能为中西文化交流做出怎样的贡献？==

If we want to better the situation of cultural exchange and mutual understanding, we may reform the country to make it more popular. We also need to bring people together. To get to know someone from the other country often changes the attitude towards the country. This can start with school partnerships and end with city partnerships. Of course there also needs to be found a long term solution between China's self-chosen isolation due to the Zero-Covid strategy and the open world around China.

We can also catch the attention of foreign readers with other cultural phenomena, which are received favorably. For example, the blockbuster movies of the 5th generation Chinese film directors has extremely pushed the reception of Chinese works of literature. Red Sorghum, Ju Dou, Life etc. are all works of literature adapted to films.

Another way is to introduce Chinese food culture with films like "The Wedding Banquet" or "Eat, drink, man, women" or Chinese martial arts with "Crouching Tiger, hidden dragon".

Moreover, the best way to understand a people a country a culture is by reading its modern literature. Through the text, the author can lead the reader into his mind and engage the reader in the trajectory of his thoughts, so that the reader can understand China through the eyes of the Chinese and break down prejudices. For example, An Lezhe and Luo Siwen's attempt to find a way out from a comparative philosophical perspective in their interpretation of the ''Analects'' successfully transmits ancient Chinese philosophical thought to the English-speaking world. Also Yu Dan's ''Confucius from the Heart'' has helped to export Confucian ideas internationally.

如果我们想要改善文化交流和相互理解的状况，除了上面罗列的方法之外，我们还需要让人们团结起来。通常来说，当人们真正了解了来自一个国家的人，他们常常会改变对这个国家的态度。因此我们可以多多与其他国家内部建立学校伙伴关系和城市伙伴关系等。当然，由于中国现在采取“清零”战略，选择自我隔离，而中国周边世界已经开放，我们需要找到一个行之有效的解决方案。
也可以用其他文化方式来吸引外国读者的注意，这个方法很受欢迎。例如，中国第五代电影导演拍摄的大片极大地推动了西方对中国文学作品的接受，比如《红高粱》《菊豆》《人生》等都是改编成电影的文学作品。
另外还通过电影《婚宴》《饮食男女》等来介绍中国的饮食文化，或者通过电影《卧虎藏龙》来介绍中国的武术。
此外，了解一个民族一个国家一种文化的最好方式就是通过阅读现代文学。通过文字，作者可以带领读者进入他的思想，让读者参与他的思想轨迹，使读者能够通过中国人的眼睛了解中国，打破偏见。比如安乐哲和罗思文对《论语》进行阐释时尝试从比较哲学角度寻找出路，成功地把中国古代哲学思想传到英语世界。于丹的《论语心得》也有助于在国际上传播儒学。

==7. 近现代东西方文学有何交流与相互影响？==

China and the West in modern times has been the Western missionaries who came to China, the foreign students, and the overseas Chinese who emigrated. Western missionaries introduced classical Chinese literature to the West, such as James Legge who was one of the first to publish the Chinese Classics in English, whose purpose was to introduce Eastern culture, philosophical thought and customs to Western readers.

Chinese scholars, such as Zhu Shenghao, were among the first Chinese translators of Shakespeare's works, Guo Moruo of Goethe's works, and the quality and style of their translations are recognized by Shakespearean researchers at home and abroad. The mutual exchange of Eastern and Western literature in modern times has not only promoted the development of Chinese literature, but also enriched world literature. The rich variety of Western literature provides more choices for Chinese reading, not only ''Romeo and Juliet'' love stories, but also anti-utopian literature like ''Animal Farm''. Chinese literature also brings something different to the West in terms of vision and experience. Based on his international readings, Mo Yan has created his vernacular works, which give Western readers a sense of the Chinese vernacular.

The exchange of literature is rising. Currently, we have a peak in German children literature licences going to China.

Also, more Chinese literature is translated into foreign languages, also due to the sponsorship program by the government.

However, printing books with money does not replace a missing market demand. Only if the market itself asks for Chinese books, Chinese literature will increase its worldwide presence. And if that happens, sponsorship is also not needed any more and could be reduced to the much smaller budgets of translation sponsorship we see in other countries.

近代以来中西文化交流的主力是来华的西方传教士、留学生和移民海外的华侨华人。
西方传教士把中国古典文学介绍到了西方，比如理雅各出版了《中国经典》的第一卷，其目的就是为了向西方读者介绍东方的文化、哲学思想和风土人情。

还有中国的有识之士如朱生豪是中国翻译莎士比亚作品较早的人之一，郭沫若是歌德作品最早翻译家之一，其译文质量和风格卓具特色，为国内外莎士比亚研究者所公认。

近现代东西方文学相互交流，不仅促进了中国文学的发展，而且还丰富了世界文学。西方文学种类丰富，为中国人阅读提供了更多选择，不仅有《罗密欧与朱丽叶》这样的爱情故事，也有《动物农场》之类的反乌托邦文学。中国文学也会给西方带来一些不一样的视野和体验。莫言在读获得诺贝尔文学奖的全球文学作品的基础上写了乡土作品，让西方读者真切感受到中国的乡土人情。

文学的交流正在上升。目前，我们有一个德国儿童文学许可证前往中国的高峰。

此外，更多的中国文学作品被翻译成外语，这也是由于政府的赞助计划。

然而，用钱印书并不能取代缺失的市场需求。只有当市场本身需要中国书籍时，中国文学才会增加其在全世界的影响力。如果这样，赞助也就不再需要了，可以减少到我们在其他国家看到的小得多的翻译赞助的预算。

=受访者简介：=

吴漠汀(Martin Woesler)，男，生于1969年，德国著名汉学家、欧洲科学院院士、欧盟让•莫内讲席教授，德国维藤大学研究院、曾任德国慕尼黑应用语言大学中文系主任、罗马第三大学讲席教授、美国由他谷大学副教授。2019年9月受聘湖南师范大学潇湘学者特聘教授。主要研究领域为《红楼梦》、比较文学、翻译、跨文化交流、中国现当代文学。他通晓德语、汉语、英语，先后翻译鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国作家的作品。他同史华慈（Rainer Schwarz)先生共同翻译完成的《红楼梦》,是《红楼梦》首部完整德文译本。荣获2020年度中国政府友谊奖。

参考资料

https://www.sohu.com/a/442142_106055

外国翻译家：中国当代文学在西方的处境如同沙漠
2014-10-30 12:13

在昨天举行的一场“汉学与当代中国”座谈会上，面对采访的几位国外翻译家表示对中国当代文学作品在国外的翻译出版很不乐观，他们毫不留情地用“太差了”、“沙漠”、“怪怪的”等来形容中国当代文学在西方的处境，令记者感到意外。

怎么了

俄罗斯曾经三年没出版一本中国当代文学书籍

俄罗斯圣彼得堡国立大学东方系常务副主任罗季奥诺夫很形象的控诉中国当代文学在俄罗斯的“惨状”：“与政治经济的热相比，中国文学在俄罗斯不能说是冷的，但至少是凉的。”罗季奥诺夫介绍，“翻译逆差明显，达到了20倍，俄罗斯的80后和90后根本就不知道当代中国文学是什么，他们只了解西方文学。”

据他统计，1990年到2005年这15年间，中国当代文学在俄罗斯一共只出版了8本书，平均两年一本，“简直是沙漠”，2005年到2008年因为有合作项目，出版了几本书，2008年金融危机后到2010年的3年间，一本书也没有，2011年出版了1本，才卖出去1000册，2012年好一点，出版了2本，一共卖出去8300册。

加拿大西门菲莎大学教授、汉学家Jan Walls痴迷中国文化，不但给自己起了个地道的中文名字王健，还会表演数来宝。“我注意到，2013年我们的作家门罗得了诺贝尔文学奖后，中国的出版社出版了9本她的小说，而2012年莫言得了诺奖后，却没有同等的待遇，加拿大并没有因为莫言得奖就多出版他的书。”王健说，加拿大的汉学家和翻译家不少，但有个共同的“毛病”，就是重视中国古典文学，轻视中国当代文学，包括他自己，作为叶嘉莹的学生，也更喜欢翻译古诗词。

西班牙马德里自治大学东亚研究中心主任、翻译家达西安娜·菲萨克，在上世纪80年代就翻译了大量的巴金、钱钟书等名家的作品到西班牙。她也直言中国当代文学在西班牙的境况不乐观。

为什么

中国当代作品的翻译连资深汉学家都发憷

对于中国当代文学作品不被国外接受的另外一个原因，是跨文化的翻译过程让作品失去了其魅力。土耳其安卡拉大学中文系主任欧凯带着几个中文流利的博士生来中国交流，他指了指自己的学生，“土耳其目前中国文学的大部分译者都是我的学生，我不应该这样直接批评我的学生，但我必须要说，翻译得太差了，很多错误。”

欧凯的手机里面存着许多张图书的图片，每一张里都有用红色笔圈出来的字句。欧凯向《北京晚报》记者展示这些他随时翻看的翻译作品，其中有铁凝的《永远有多远》，欧凯很喜欢铁凝的文字，“可是你看，这本书的名字就翻译错了，还有王刚的作品《英格力士》，书名直接翻译成《英语》了，这怎么能一样呢。”欧凯又翻到一本莫言的作品，其中的“八路”翻译成了“第八大道”：“他们不了解中国文化，不了解创作背后的含义，如果我是普通读者，到书店里拿起这样一本书翻一下，根本不会去买。”

这种翻译的困难有时也并不只是年轻的译者中文水平有限所致，而是中西文化差异过大。菲萨克告诉记者，尽管已经有三十年的翻译经验，但是在翻译当代作品时还是发憷：“翻译当代的文学作品有些困难，大部分都是通过英文和法文的译本再翻译成西班牙文。”这样就造成了二次转述中和原文更大的误差。她还提到，中国曾经组织了一批西班牙语好的外语人才，将中国作品翻译到西班牙。“我不认为这种做法可行，因为我看了书以后，觉得语言都是怪怪的，读者看过之后可能更觉得中国是个距离遥远的文化了。”

怎么办

这事儿需要政府牵引靠个人力量肯定不行

欧凯的建议很直接，希望土耳其政府和中国政府共同为翻译作品的质量把关。“政府必须介入，之前的翻译都是很个人的事情，喜欢哪本书，跟出版社说，就开始翻译，根本无法保证翻译的质量。”欧凯认为，可以成立一个委员会，监督和审查翻译的质量，为作品严格把关，“这件事情肯定要政府去做，靠个人的力量是不行的。”

罗季奥诺夫则提出了具体的建议，希望俄罗斯的孔子学院和中国作家协会合作推出翻译项目，“不但要翻译，更要推广，不是把书出版就行了，还要大力推广，比如莫言和余华这样一批有名气的中国作家，完全可以走商业宣传的方式。”罗季奥诺夫也敏感地提出，在翻译作品时要特别注意本土读者的接受程度：“我发现很多在中国特别受欢迎的作品，俄罗斯人很不喜欢，甚至还会反感，引起对于中国人的误解，挑选什么样的文学作品很关键。”

菲萨克一直以来担心的西班牙“缺少真正懂中文的人”的人才不足问题，随着2008年西班牙大学开始招收本科汉语专业的学生有了很大改变，可以寄希望于后辈：“目前已经培养了一批年轻的汉学家，真正在搞翻译，真正因为喜欢中国文学才会做这件事。”

同样为人才担心的加拿大学者王健也说，别看加拿大面积大，但是人口还不及云南省的人口，翻译人才就更少了。“现在有一个现象，是中国移民到加拿大，在大学继续学习中国文学的学者们，有这样一批中青年学者在从事翻译工作，都是自发的。”王健说。本报记者陈梦溪返回搜狐，查看更多

Interview by Wan Shuyuan 2022

2022-04-23T16:39:11Z

Bebery: /* 5. 近年来，中国近现代文学在西方“遇冷”的现象有所改变吗？目前的接受程度如何？哪些类型的中国近现代文学更容易吸引欧洲读者？ */

Back to [[JM]] page

Links to other interviews as background information: [[2021_Interview_with_Duan_Yuanyuan]], [[Longer_interview_version_dated_March_3_2021]], [[Interview_Univerlag_2022]].

Aim: Give guidance for the field, make some provocative but true statements. Reflect current discussions both in China and internationally. Refer to Web literature work by Chen Dingjia (CASS) and to "Intellectual History" by Chen Zhongyi.

'''汉学家吴漠汀：我为何翻译中国现当代文学?'''

近年来,随着中国作家屡在国际获奖，越来越多中国现当代作家的作品开始受到世界关注。德国汉学家吴漠汀翻译了鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国作家的众多作品。

中新社记者拟以“我为何翻译中国现当代文学?”为题，采访德国汉学家吴漠汀教授。

采访问题如下：

==1. 你不仅翻译了《红楼梦》德文版本，还先后翻译了鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国近现代作家的作品。你为何钟情于中国近现代文学？==

The main reason is, that from the perspective of world literature, Chinese literature is underrepresented in the world. Regarding the quality, the Qing Red Chamber Dreams in guanhua and Lu Xun's "The True Story of Ah Q" in early baihua were among the globally best pieces of literature of their time. In general, we can say that many works of Chinese literature of the 1920s was of a world leading high quality, also because the Chinese writers were in close exchange with the national literatures of the world.

Since 1930, when the League of Left Wing Writers was founded, Chinese authors changed from writing high quality literature for literature's sake to writing literature for political purpose, they voluntarily gave up quality and international compatibility. However, even under this environment, some excellent authors emerged like the ones I translated. So we still have a few works of excellent Chinese literature today. These works are worth to be translated and to made known to the world.

This is the more the case, since we have many more e.g. English, French, Spanish and German literature translated into Chinese than the other way round. One of the reasons why not much Chinese literature is translated into foreign languages is that China as a country ranks among the countries with the lowest popularity all around the world. A major reason for that is her corruption and autocratic system. If China can reform and open up more, also its culture will naturally become more popular all around the world.

Another reason why modern Chinese literature appeals to me is the local characteristics embedded in these works. For example, Mr. Jia Pingwa's works contain a large number of dialects, local traditions unique to his hometown, etc. His works are wonderful, but the amount of his works translated is much lower than the quality of his works deserves, because these parts are difficult to be translated into foreign languages. I think these distinctive cultures are also worth spreading, and I would be happy to translate such Chinese vernacular stories and bring them to the world.

Top Chinese literature of modern and contemporary times is extremely rich. Lu Xun has shaped the new vernacular. His whole life he was torn between the need he saw for political reform and his doubts, if literature can be effective in this respect. Among all international great writers, Lu Xun was the one who even stood above the Nobel Prize of Literature, when he declined to be listed as candidate for it. With Ah Q, Kong Yiji, The Madman's Diary, he wrote the internationally most advanced and modern literature of his time. Until today it is a desideratum to publish his Complete Works in English. I translated for example his essays on the book burning in Germany.

I also translated Yu Qiuyu's History of Calligraphy, which gives foreigners an in-depth inside into this important art and its role and position in Chinese cultural history, considering it the basis of all arts and as important as music, painting and literature.

Wang Meng has not only won the hearts of Chinese readers with his nostalgic revolution love story "Long live the Youth", but has also contributed a lot to the experimental development of the stream-of-consciousness style in literature. I have translated his short story "Hard Porridge" and his autobiographical book "China - Deciphered".

I very much enjoyed to translate Han Shaogong's works "Verblassender Mond über dem verlassenen Innenhof" (空院残月), which shows a dense atmosphere of 1930s China under Japanese occupation, and "Der Zorn des Buddha" (怒目金刚), which shows the stubborness of a rule breaker and also contains some supernatural elements.

Because of the life experience I share with Xu Zechen as student at Peking University, and therefore I felt very much at home when translating his "Ah Peking!".

Zhang Wei delivers both, on the one hand very intense descriptions of the struggle of men in nature and local sceneries with "Baummoos pflücken", "Meerwind", "Auf ins Maisfeld", "Fuchs und Wein", "Herbstzorn" und "Weintrauben im Herbstregen" and on the other hand the world of cadres between good intentions and the temptations of bribery with "Rette bitte den Künstler".

Although Han Han is better known as race driver and film regisseur, e.g. for the blockbuster "Four Seas", he is a successful and skilfull writer too, so I have translated his works "Three Gates", "Glorious Days", and "His Land". Compared to Guo Jingming, who is more celebrity than author, Han Han produces high quality literature, especially with his road novel "1988: I want to talk with the world", translated by Howard Goldblatt.

I also chose to translate Mian Mian's novel "Panda Sex" because I wanted to check, if it was really "rubbish literature" as it was once claimed by a critic. I visited her in Shanghai and discovered that her works are so authentic, because he mostly described her own life experience. The novel Panda Sex was composed with an experimental writing style: Only at the end of the novel, the reader understands that the recurring quotes in the novel are actual recordings, which Mian Mian took from philosophical talks at various parties in Shanghai.

In general, to support cultural attractiveness, the so-called "soft power" with "hard power" means, e.g. financial support, can backfire. The United States was long seen as a country where poor or criminal European immigrated to. It was a country of slavery and its racism was severe even until the 1970s. Since then, the United States have reformed and earned the trust of many other countries in the world. So without investing into soft power, it naturally became a soft superpower. People all over the world eat the unhealthy American fast food, simply because the United States has an attractiveness and people feel to be part of the "land of the free" or the "American dream" when they eat the food.

As I understand it, in 2000, the Chinese National People's Congress initially proposed a "go global" strategy. The Chinese government supports the export of Chinese culture financially especially since 2007. It also supports the translation of Chinese literature and propaganda books into foreign languages. In the beginning, the policy was not applied properly. The most funding was offered for propaganda books, and not from the perspective which works of literature and which fact books can be successful abroad. This practise has become better now. However, the sales figures of Chinese books abroad are still lowered because the partnering Chinese publishing houses make the final edit of the translations and have the final say how to design the covers. They often change the colors, take away the illustrations and eye-catching cover texts.

In this way, while many Chinese literary works have great potential for worldwide success, restrictions on how books look or are presented abroad sometimes undermine that potential. China still has a way to go in enhancing its own cultural appeal, and I hope that my translations will add to the effort to bring Chinese culture to the world.
主要是因为，从世界文学的角度来看，中国文学一直保持着良好的水平。《红楼梦》和《阿Q正传》从质量上讲是当时全球最好的文学作品中的代表作。总而言之，1920年代出现了许多在世界文学领域也称得上高质量的中国文学作品，其中缘由也是因为中国作家与世界各国的文学作品进行了密切交流。

自1930年中国左翼作家联盟成立以来，中国作家从为文学而文学变成了创作政治导向的文学，他们主动放弃了质量和国际化。然而，即使在这种环境下，也还是出现了一批优秀作家作品，比如我翻译的那些作品。所以今天仍然有一些优秀的中国文学作品。这些作品值得被翻译，让世界看见。

特别是当文学作品的引进多于译出时更是如此。中国文学作品被译介到国外的数量不多，原因之一是中国作为一个国家在全世界范围内的知名度最低。一个主要原因是中国的腐败和专制制度。如果中国能够实施改革开放政策，其文化也会自然而然在世界范围内变得更受欢迎。

中国现代文学吸引我的另一个原因是这些作品中蕴含的地方特色。例如，贾平凹先生的作品中包含了大量的方言、他家乡特有的地方传统等。他的作品很精彩，但其作品的翻译量却难以反映其作品应有的质量，因为这些部分很难被翻译成外语。我认为这些独特的文化也是值得传播的，我很愿意翻译这样的中国乡土故事，把它们带到世界上。

中国现当代的顶级文学是极其丰富的。鲁迅塑造了新的白话文。他的一生都在关注所看到的政治改革的需要和他的怀疑，即文学是否能在这方面发挥作用。在所有的国际大作家中，虽然当时鲁迅拒绝被列为诺贝尔文学奖的候选人，但其实他的作品甚至上高于诺贝尔文学奖的评奖标准的。他以《阿Q正传》《孔乙己》《狂人日记》几部作品写出了当时国际上最先进的现代文学。直到今天，用英文出版他的全集仍是一个宏愿。而我就翻译了他关于德国焚书的文章。

我还翻译了余秋雨的《书法史》，让外国人深入了解这一重要艺术及其在中国文化史上的作用和地位。书法是所有艺术的基础，与音乐、绘画和文学一样重要。
王蒙不仅以其怀旧的革命爱情故事《青春万岁》赢得了中国读者的心，而且对文学中意识流风格的实验性发展做出了很大贡献。我曾翻译过他的短篇小说《坚硬的稀粥》和他的自传书《中国-解密》。
我非常喜欢翻译韩少功的作品《空院残月》和《怒目金刚》，前者展示了一个规则破坏者的顽强精神，包含了一些超自然的元素。
因为我和徐则臣有共同的生活经历，都是北京大学的学生，所以我在翻译他的《啊，北京！》时感到非常自在。

张伟的书中阐述了两种情况，一种是如《采树鳔》《海的风》《钻玉米地》《狐狸和酒》《秋天的愤怒》以及《秋雨洗葡萄》这样的作品，情感强烈地描述了人类在自然和当地风景中的斗争，另一种则是如《请挽救艺术家》这样的作品，写出了干部的世界在善意和贿赂的诱惑之间的挣扎。

虽然韩寒更多的是以赛车手和电影评论家的身份为人所知，例如，以大片《四海》而闻名，但他也是一位成功而娴熟的作家，所以我翻译了他的作品《三道门》《光辉岁月》和《他的土地》。跟与其说是作家不如说是名人的郭敬明相比，韩寒的文学作品质量很高，特别是他的公路小说《1988：我想和这个世界谈谈》，由葛浩文翻译。

而我之所以选择翻译棉棉的小说《熊猫》，也是因为我想确认一下，它是否真的如一位评论家所说的那样是“垃圾文学”。于是我在上海拜访了她，一番了解后发现，她的作品是如此的真实，因为书中主要描述的是她自己的生活经历。小说《熊猫》使用的一种实验性的写作风格：直到小说结尾，读者才会发现小说中反复出现的引用其实是真实的录音，是棉棉在上海各种聚会上录下来的哲学谈话。

一般来说，为了支持文化的吸引力，所谓的“软实力”加上“硬实力”的手段，如财政支持，会适得其反。长期以来，美国被视为贫穷或接收难民的国家。它是一个奴隶制国家，其种族主义甚至在20世纪70年代之前都很严重。从那时起，美国已经进行了改革，并赢得了世界上许多其他国家的信任。因此，在没有对软实力进行投资的情况下，它自然成为了一个软性的超级大国。世界各地的人都在吃不健康的美国快餐，只是因为美国有一种吸引力，人们在吃这些食物时感到“自由之土”或是“美国梦”的一部分。

据我所知，在2000年，中国全国人民代表大会最初提出了中国文化“走出去”的战略。中国政府在财政上支持中国文化的出口，特别是2007年以来。中国还支持将中国文学和宣传书籍翻译成外国语言。一开始，这项政策并没有得到适当的应用。大部分资金是提供给宣传书籍的，而没有从传播效果的角度来考虑。现在这种做法已经有所改善。然而，中国图书在国外的销售额仍然很低，因为合作的中国出版社对译本进行了最后的编辑，并对如何设计封面有最终决定权。他们经常改变颜色，去掉插图和醒目的封面文字。

这样一来，虽然许多中国文学作品具有被成功译介的巨大潜力，但对书籍外观或在国外展示的限制有时会影响译介进程。中国在提高自己的文化吸引力方面还有一段路要走，我希望我的翻译能够为中国文化走向世界的努力添砖加瓦。

==2. 中国近现代文学的魅力何在？翻译近现代文学如何加深了你对中国的了解？==

Modern and contemporary literature is one of the best ways to understand a country and a culture. Authors have the ability to drag readers into their thoughts, to let them participate in their line of thoughts and let them look at China through Chinese eyes.

In modern Chinese literature one can see the sparks of ancient literature colliding with foreign literature. Lu Xun, for example, is not only a famous Chinese writer, thinker and revolutionary; in the process of translating Lu Xun's works, take ''Call to the Arms'' (Nahan) as an example, this work truly depicts the social life from the Xinhai Revolution to the May Fourth period, revealing the deep-seated contradictions, profoundly analyzing and attacking the old Chinese system and stereotypes, which provides readers with a new perspective to This provides readers with a new perspective to better understand the culture and characteristics of modern China. On the other hand, with the passage of time, new generations of authors have emerged in the literary world, such as the "post-80s" literature, describing the authors born after 1980. Especially after 2000, the "post-80s" writing, mainly youth literature, has achieved a brilliant success in the literary market.

Han Han is one of the more famous post-80s literary writers. In translating Han Han's "Triple Door", I learned that Han Han is full of wisdom, he uses his own unique narrative to express his understanding of the world, and when he finds himself in tension with the world, he is able to give a clever way to solve it. Han Han uses a humoristic critical surrealism to describe phenomena of contemporary Chinese society. Difficult for the translator is, that Han Han often uses traditional proverbs and then interpretes them not by their allegoric, but by their true meaning and creates a twist in the story line. Since the proverbs have different meanings in the target culture, it takes a long time to find solutions for these frequent turning points in Han Han's stories.

The works of Han Han and Lu Xun both reflect to a certain extent their different understanding of the times, and they have their own different views on different times, and when they reflect their thoughts on the times in their books, this in itself is a way to show their charm. The views of the authors of different eras have the characteristics of the people of different eras, and in understanding their thoughts and works is also the way one can understand China step by step.

中国近现代文学是理解中国及其中国文化本身最好的方式。作家能够让读者明白他们的想法，并且让读者们参与到他们的想法中来，让他们以中国的视野来观看中国。中国近现代文学中能够看到古代文学与外国文学碰撞产生的火花。比如鲁迅，他不仅是中国著名的文学家、思想家、革命家；在对鲁迅的作品进行翻译的过程中，拿《呐喊》为例，这部作品真实描绘了从辛亥革命到五四时期的社会生活，揭示了种种深层次矛盾，对中国旧有制度以及陈腐的传统观念进行了深刻的剖析与抨击，这给读者提供了一个新的角度来更好的了解中国近现代的文化与时代特点。另一方面，随着时间的流逝，一些新兴文学登上了文学界，比如“80后”文学。“80后”写作是新世纪之初中国最重要的文化现象。2000年以后，以青春文学为主体的“80后”写作在文学市场取得了辉煌的胜利。而韩寒则是“80后”文学写作中较有名气的一位。在对韩寒《三重门》进行翻译时，我了解到韩寒充满了智慧，他用自己独特的叙述方式将他对世界的理解表达出来，另外，当他发现自己与世界的紧张关系时，他能够给予一种巧妙的方法进行解决。韩寒与鲁迅的作品都在一定程度上能够反应他们对于时代不同的理解，对于不同的时代，他们有着自己不同的看法，而当他们将自己对时代的思考在书中体现出来时，这本身就是一种魅力展现的方式。不同时代作者的看法都具备了不同时代人的特性，在了解他们的思想和作品的过程中，也可以一步步了解中国。

==3. 很多文学作品在跨文化的翻译过程中，会让作品失去原本的魅力。那么，你在翻译中国近现代文学作品时，是如何克服翻译瓶颈的？和翻译中国古典文学有何不同之处？==

It is not true, that works of literature lose their original attraction when translated into a different language. That is a prejudice. Almost all literature we read today is translated literature. If you do not translate, you only have national literatures read by local people. If you want to win the nobel prize of literature, you need to be translated at least into English, and best also into Swedish.

Every original has its specific attraction. It can be low or high. If it may be of high attraction to foreign readers - which is not always the same as to be attractive to local readers - then it is worth to be translated. When you translate, you can either make it more attractive or less attractive. This depends on a lot of factors. One is, that you need to understand and appreciate the original fully. Many Chinese readers also cannot understand and appreciate a work fully. So the ideal translator is a foreigner, who has lived in China for several years. There are almost only native speakers of the target language, who produce successful translations in the literary field. The same is true for foreign literature: If it wants to be successful in the Chinese literary market, it needs to be translated by a Chinese translator. An even more ideal translator would be an author by her or himself. So the best poetry translation is done by poets who translated into their own language.

In the education process of translators, they are told that they should master the foreign language as well as their own language. But this is not possible except for people who grew up truly bilingual. Therefore, one should translate into one's own language in order to achieve the best success.

我认为这是一种偏见，实际上文学作品在跨文化的翻译过程中，并不会失去其原本的魅力。今天我们阅读的文学作品几乎全部都是译作。如果我们不把文学作品翻译成其他文字，那么我们国家的文学作品只会拥有本土读者；如果我们想要让作品走出去，最好获得诺贝尔文学奖，那就至少得把文学作品翻译成英文，当然最好还要译成瑞典语。

每一部文学作品都拥有或多或少的独特魅力。倘若一部文学作品在外国读者看来是极具魅力的，而本国读者却意见相左，我们把它译成外国文字则是一件很有意义的事情。但是我们在翻译文学作品的时候切忌改变其原本的魅力，既不能增加一分，也不能减少一分。要做到这一点需要考虑许多因素，一个就是我们必须对该文学作品有充分的理解和鉴赏。倘若本土读者对某些国内作品也无法充分地理解和鉴赏，那么翻译该作品的最佳译者可以是那些旅居该国多年的外国译者。通常成功的文学作品翻译大多是由译作语言为母语的译者来完成的，外国文学作品的翻译也同样如此。如果一部外国文学作品想要在中国文学市场取得成功，有必要请一位中国译者来翻译该作品。如果这位译者本人还是一位作者，那是最理想的情况了。这就不难理解为什么最好的诗歌翻译都是由那些译语为母语的诗人完成的。在译者学习翻译的过程中，往往要求他们必须熟练掌握一门外语，其熟练程度等同于其母语。这一点除了那些从小在双语环境里成长的并列双语者可能实现，对于其他人几乎是不切实际的。因此，译者往往是将外国作品翻译成自己的母语时才能取得更大的成就。

==4. 过去很长一段时期，西方对中国古典文学研究较多，而对现当代文学的翻译和研究较少。曾有外国翻译家直言：“中国当代文学在西方的处境如同沙漠。”这一现象背后的原因是什么？==

Of course the world is a desert, when it comes to Chinese literature. And this is unfair, because there are actually works of literature with a high quality in China.

In Germany, non-German literature accounts for 12,5% of literature, but Chinese literature only for 0,3% of literature. However, before I engaged in translation, we had 11 Chinese literary books per year being translated into German. With my engagement, this figure has roughly doubled. How did I achieve this? I gathered a group of young sinologists in Germany, who all joined into a translators workshop. In this workshop, we now translate about 10 books from Chinese into German, most of it works of literature. With this output, we have doubled the number of books translated from Chinese into German since more than a decade now.

The reason behind the desert phenomenon is, that Chinese literature is only as popular as the country is seen by the international community. The worldwide market for Russian literature broke down since end of February 2022, and at the same time the worldwide market for Ukrainian literature has skyrocketed. Since there was no change in quality, we can see from that that there are foreign perceptions and the image of a country, which plays into it. The easiest way for Chinese literature to become celebrated around the world would be to become a country, which is even more clean and even more free than today.

当然，说到中国文学，世界的确是一片荒漠。但其实中国文学受到了不公待遇，因为中国确实有高质量的文学作品。

在德国，非德国文学占文学总量的12.5%，但中国文学只占文学的0.3%。在我从事翻译工作之前，我们每年有11本中国文学作品被翻译成德语。随着我的参与，这个数字大约翻了一番。我是如何做到这一点的呢？我在德国召集一群年轻的汉学家加入了一个翻译工作坊。我们现在将大约10本书从中文译成德文，其中大部分是文学作品。有了这个成果，十多年来，我们从中文翻译成德文的书籍数量增加了一倍。

沙漠现象背后的原因是，中国文学只有在中国进入国际社会舞台才会受到欢迎。自2022年2月底以来,俄罗斯文学的全球市场已经崩溃,而与此同时,乌克兰文学的全球市场却急剧上升。由于质量没有变化，我们可以从中看出，国家形象在其中起作用。中国文学要想在世界范围内受到赞誉，最简单的方法就是成为一个更廉洁、自由的国家

==5. 近年来，中国近现代文学在西方“遇冷”的现象有所改变吗？目前的接受程度如何？哪些类型的中国近现代文学更容易吸引欧洲读者？==

There is the underlying problem of the popularity of China as a country in general in the eyes of people in America, Europe, and Africa. Especially in the United States we have seen a drop in popularity of China from 42% pro and 38% contra in 2008 to 22% pro and 73% contra in 2020 according to the Pew Research Center. Of course this drop in popularity is partly home made. So there are concrete measures to enhance the image of China in the world, e.g. reduction of corruption, enhancement of the rule of law, reliability, trust, power control, self-criticism regarding own problems and mistakes and the taking over of as much responsibility for peace and stability in the world as much China represents one fourth of the world population and is among the two largest economies in the world.

Literature itself can contribute its share by delivering high quality literature. Although most of Chinese literature is below world literature quality since the 1930s, there are still a few works worth translating. Some contemporary writers, such as Mo Yan, Liu Cixin, Yan Lianke, Su Tong, and Yu Hua, have already gained some influence among Western readers, but many more writers are still obscure. On the whole, Chinese literature has not yet developed a stable profile with its own characteristics among Western readers.

Chinese authors could also enhance the quality of their literature by learning several languages and reading the literature of other countries in their original languages. In 1920's China, Chinese writers naturally spoke different languages and also participated in the cultural exchange and translated literature. Through this intense cultural exchange, also Lu Xun's short story "The True Story of Ah Q" was translated into French and supported by the French author Romand Rollain.

Among the literary categories, science fiction, children's literature and online literature are more popular among Western readers, including European readers, while works with strong political content are less popular. According to a study by Ariadne Consulting, the scale of overseas users of Chinese online literature has reached more than 80 million in 2020, which has a very strong appeal to Western readers.

在美国、欧洲和非洲，中国作为一个国家本身的受欢迎度不高，这也影响了中国近现代文学在全球的传播。尤其是在美国，根据皮尤研究中心(Pew Research Center)的数据，可以看到中国的受欢迎程度从2008年的42%欢迎和38%不欢迎下降到2020年的22%欢迎和73%不欢迎。这使中国近现代文学在西方的传播仍不容乐观。
中国国家在西方受欢迎程度的下降，除国际原因之外也有一部分国内原因。对此，也有一些具体的措施，例如持续减少腐败、加强法治、可信度和自我批评，提升对权力机制的监管，以及继续为世界和平稳定作出应有的贡献。
文坛自身也可以多多产出高质量文学作品。自20世纪30年代以来，中国文学有时受政治因素影响，但高质量作品仍然较为丰富。像莫言、刘慈欣、阎连科、苏童、余华等一些当代作家已经在西方读者中具有一定的影响力，但更多的作家则依旧面目模糊。从整体上来说，中国文学尚未在西方读者中形成具有自身特色的稳定形象。中国作家可以多阅读其他国家的文学作品，达到取长补短、兼收并蓄的效果。例如在20世纪20年代的中国，中国作家如鲁迅就积极参与文化交流和翻译。通过这种激烈的文化交流，鲁迅的短篇小说《阿Q正传》被翻译成法文，并得到了法国作家罗曼•罗兰的支持。
在文学类别中，科幻小说、儿童文学以及网络文学是西方读者包括欧洲读者较为欢迎的，而政治性强的作品则不太受欢迎。据艾瑞咨询研究显示，2020年中国网络文学海外用户规模已达到八千万以上，对西方读者有非常强的吸引力。

==6. 你扎实的语言基本功和翻译水平使你的作品在欧美汉学界引起了广泛关注。你认为翻译中国近现代文学能为中西文化交流做出怎样的贡献？==

If we want to better the situation of cultural exchange and mutual understanding, we may reform the country to make it more popular. We also need to bring people together. To get to know someone from the other country often changes the attitude towards the country. This can start with school partnerships and end with city partnerships. Of course there also needs to be found a long term solution between China's self-chosen isolation due to the Zero-Covid strategy and the open world around China.

We can also catch the attention of foreign readers with other cultural phenomena, which are received favorably. For example, the blockbuster movies of the 5th generation Chinese film directors has extremely pushed the reception of Chinese works of literature. Red Sorghum, Ju Dou, Life etc. are all works of literature adapted to films.

Another way is to introduce Chinese food culture with films like "The Wedding Banquet" or "Eat, drink, man, women" or Chinese martial arts with "Crouching Tiger, hidden dragon".

Moreover, the best way to understand a people a country a culture is by reading its modern literature. Through the text, the author can lead the reader into his mind and engage the reader in the trajectory of his thoughts, so that the reader can understand China through the eyes of the Chinese and break down prejudices. For example, An Lezhe and Luo Siwen's attempt to find a way out from a comparative philosophical perspective in their interpretation of the ''Analects'' successfully transmits ancient Chinese philosophical thought to the English-speaking world. Also Yu Dan's ''Confucius from the Heart'' has helped to export Confucian ideas internationally.

如果我们想要改善文化交流和相互理解的状况，除了上面罗列的方法之外，我们还需要让人们团结起来。通常来说，当人们真正了解了来自一个国家的人，他们常常会改变对这个国家的态度。因此我们可以多多与其他国家内部建立学校伙伴关系和城市伙伴关系等。当然，由于中国现在采取“清零”战略，选择自我隔离，而中国周边世界已经开放，我们需要找到一个行之有效的解决方案。

我们也可以用其他文化方式来吸引外国读者的注意，这个方法很受欢迎。例如，中国第五代电影导演拍摄的大片极大地推动了西方对中国文学作品的接受，《红高粱》、《菊豆》、《人生》等都是改编成电影的文学作品。

我们还通过电影《婚宴》、《饮食男女》等来介绍中国的饮食文化，或者通过电影《卧虎藏龙》来介绍中国的武术。

翻译中国近现代文学能够丰富世界文学，中国近现代文学中有许多优秀作品。这些作品值得被世界人民所看到。

此外，了解一个民族一个国家一种文化的最好方式就是通过阅读它的近现代文学。通过文字，作者可以带领读者进入他的思想，让读者参与他的思想轨迹，使读者能够通过中国人的眼睛了解中国，打破偏见。比如安乐哲和罗思文对《论语》进行阐释时尝试从比较哲学角度寻找出路，成功地把中国古代哲学思想传到英语世界。于丹的《论语心得》也帮助了全球传播儒学的道理。

==7. 近现代东西方文学有何交流与相互影响？==

China and the West in modern times has been the Western missionaries who came to China, the foreign students, and the overseas Chinese who emigrated. Western missionaries introduced classical Chinese literature to the West, such as James Legge who was one of the first to publish the Chinese Classics in English, whose purpose was to introduce Eastern culture, philosophical thought and customs to Western readers.

Chinese scholars, such as Zhu Shenghao, were among the first Chinese translators of Shakespeare's works, Guo Moruo of Goethe's works, and the quality and style of their translations are recognized by Shakespearean researchers at home and abroad. The mutual exchange of Eastern and Western literature in modern times has not only promoted the development of Chinese literature, but also enriched world literature. The rich variety of Western literature provides more choices for Chinese reading, not only ''Romeo and Juliet'' love stories, but also anti-utopian literature like ''Animal Farm''. Chinese literature also brings something different to the West in terms of vision and experience. Based on his international readings, Mo Yan has created his vernacular works, which give Western readers a sense of the Chinese vernacular.

The exchange of literature is rising. Currently, we have a peak in German children literature licences going to China.

Also, more Chinese literature is translated into foreign languages, also due to the sponsorship program by the government.

However, printing books with money does not replace a missing market demand. Only if the market itself asks for Chinese books, Chinese literature will increase its worldwide presence. And if that happens, sponsorship is also not needed any more and could be reduced to the much smaller budgets of translation sponsorship we see in other countries.

近代以来中西文化交流的主力是来华的西方传教士、留学生和移民海外的华侨华人。
西方传教士把中国古典文学介绍到了西方，比如理雅各出版了《中国经典》的第一卷，其目的就是为了向西方读者介绍东方的文化、哲学思想和风土人情。

还有中国的有识之士如朱生豪是中国翻译莎士比亚作品较早的人之一，郭沫若是歌德作品最早翻译家之一，其译文质量和风格卓具特色，为国内外莎士比亚研究者所公认。

近现代东西方文学相互交流，不仅促进了中国文学的发展，而且还丰富了世界文学。西方文学种类丰富，为中国人阅读提供了更多选择，不仅有《罗密欧与朱丽叶》这样的爱情故事，也有《动物农场》之类的反乌托邦文学。中国文学也会给西方带来一些不一样的视野和体验。莫言在读获得诺贝尔文学奖的全球文学作品的基础上写了乡土作品，让西方读者真切感受到中国的乡土人情。

文学的交流正在上升。目前，我们有一个德国儿童文学许可证前往中国的高峰。

此外，更多的中国文学作品被翻译成外语，这也是由于政府的赞助计划。

然而，用钱印书并不能取代缺失的市场需求。只有当市场本身需要中国书籍时，中国文学才会增加其在全世界的影响力。如果这样，赞助也就不再需要了，可以减少到我们在其他国家看到的小得多的翻译赞助的预算。

=受访者简介：=

吴漠汀(Martin Woesler)，男，生于1969年，德国著名汉学家、欧洲科学院院士、欧盟让•莫内讲席教授，德国维藤大学研究院、曾任德国慕尼黑应用语言大学中文系主任、罗马第三大学讲席教授、美国由他谷大学副教授。2019年9月受聘湖南师范大学潇湘学者特聘教授。主要研究领域为《红楼梦》、比较文学、翻译、跨文化交流、中国现当代文学。他通晓德语、汉语、英语，先后翻译鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国作家的作品。他同史华慈（Rainer Schwarz)先生共同翻译完成的《红楼梦》,是《红楼梦》首部完整德文译本。荣获2020年度中国政府友谊奖。

参考资料

https://www.sohu.com/a/442142_106055

外国翻译家：中国当代文学在西方的处境如同沙漠
2014-10-30 12:13

在昨天举行的一场“汉学与当代中国”座谈会上，面对采访的几位国外翻译家表示对中国当代文学作品在国外的翻译出版很不乐观，他们毫不留情地用“太差了”、“沙漠”、“怪怪的”等来形容中国当代文学在西方的处境，令记者感到意外。

怎么了

俄罗斯曾经三年没出版一本中国当代文学书籍

俄罗斯圣彼得堡国立大学东方系常务副主任罗季奥诺夫很形象的控诉中国当代文学在俄罗斯的“惨状”：“与政治经济的热相比，中国文学在俄罗斯不能说是冷的，但至少是凉的。”罗季奥诺夫介绍，“翻译逆差明显，达到了20倍，俄罗斯的80后和90后根本就不知道当代中国文学是什么，他们只了解西方文学。”

据他统计，1990年到2005年这15年间，中国当代文学在俄罗斯一共只出版了8本书，平均两年一本，“简直是沙漠”，2005年到2008年因为有合作项目，出版了几本书，2008年金融危机后到2010年的3年间，一本书也没有，2011年出版了1本，才卖出去1000册，2012年好一点，出版了2本，一共卖出去8300册。

加拿大西门菲莎大学教授、汉学家Jan Walls痴迷中国文化，不但给自己起了个地道的中文名字王健，还会表演数来宝。“我注意到，2013年我们的作家门罗得了诺贝尔文学奖后，中国的出版社出版了9本她的小说，而2012年莫言得了诺奖后，却没有同等的待遇，加拿大并没有因为莫言得奖就多出版他的书。”王健说，加拿大的汉学家和翻译家不少，但有个共同的“毛病”，就是重视中国古典文学，轻视中国当代文学，包括他自己，作为叶嘉莹的学生，也更喜欢翻译古诗词。

西班牙马德里自治大学东亚研究中心主任、翻译家达西安娜·菲萨克，在上世纪80年代就翻译了大量的巴金、钱钟书等名家的作品到西班牙。她也直言中国当代文学在西班牙的境况不乐观。

为什么

中国当代作品的翻译连资深汉学家都发憷

对于中国当代文学作品不被国外接受的另外一个原因，是跨文化的翻译过程让作品失去了其魅力。土耳其安卡拉大学中文系主任欧凯带着几个中文流利的博士生来中国交流，他指了指自己的学生，“土耳其目前中国文学的大部分译者都是我的学生，我不应该这样直接批评我的学生，但我必须要说，翻译得太差了，很多错误。”

欧凯的手机里面存着许多张图书的图片，每一张里都有用红色笔圈出来的字句。欧凯向《北京晚报》记者展示这些他随时翻看的翻译作品，其中有铁凝的《永远有多远》，欧凯很喜欢铁凝的文字，“可是你看，这本书的名字就翻译错了，还有王刚的作品《英格力士》，书名直接翻译成《英语》了，这怎么能一样呢。”欧凯又翻到一本莫言的作品，其中的“八路”翻译成了“第八大道”：“他们不了解中国文化，不了解创作背后的含义，如果我是普通读者，到书店里拿起这样一本书翻一下，根本不会去买。”

这种翻译的困难有时也并不只是年轻的译者中文水平有限所致，而是中西文化差异过大。菲萨克告诉记者，尽管已经有三十年的翻译经验，但是在翻译当代作品时还是发憷：“翻译当代的文学作品有些困难，大部分都是通过英文和法文的译本再翻译成西班牙文。”这样就造成了二次转述中和原文更大的误差。她还提到，中国曾经组织了一批西班牙语好的外语人才，将中国作品翻译到西班牙。“我不认为这种做法可行，因为我看了书以后，觉得语言都是怪怪的，读者看过之后可能更觉得中国是个距离遥远的文化了。”

怎么办

这事儿需要政府牵引靠个人力量肯定不行

欧凯的建议很直接，希望土耳其政府和中国政府共同为翻译作品的质量把关。“政府必须介入，之前的翻译都是很个人的事情，喜欢哪本书，跟出版社说，就开始翻译，根本无法保证翻译的质量。”欧凯认为，可以成立一个委员会，监督和审查翻译的质量，为作品严格把关，“这件事情肯定要政府去做，靠个人的力量是不行的。”

罗季奥诺夫则提出了具体的建议，希望俄罗斯的孔子学院和中国作家协会合作推出翻译项目，“不但要翻译，更要推广，不是把书出版就行了，还要大力推广，比如莫言和余华这样一批有名气的中国作家，完全可以走商业宣传的方式。”罗季奥诺夫也敏感地提出，在翻译作品时要特别注意本土读者的接受程度：“我发现很多在中国特别受欢迎的作品，俄罗斯人很不喜欢，甚至还会反感，引起对于中国人的误解，挑选什么样的文学作品很关键。”

菲萨克一直以来担心的西班牙“缺少真正懂中文的人”的人才不足问题，随着2008年西班牙大学开始招收本科汉语专业的学生有了很大改变，可以寄希望于后辈：“目前已经培养了一批年轻的汉学家，真正在搞翻译，真正因为喜欢中国文学才会做这件事。”

同样为人才担心的加拿大学者王健也说，别看加拿大面积大，但是人口还不及云南省的人口，翻译人才就更少了。“现在有一个现象，是中国移民到加拿大，在大学继续学习中国文学的学者们，有这样一批中青年学者在从事翻译工作，都是自发的。”王健说。本报记者陈梦溪返回搜狐，查看更多

Interview by Wan Shuyuan 2022

2022-04-23T16:33:08Z

Bebery: /* 4. 过去很长一段时期，西方对中国古典文学研究较多，而对现当代文学的翻译和研究较少。曾有外国翻译家直言：“中国当代文学在西方的处境如同沙漠。”这一现象背后的原因是什么？ */

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Links to other interviews as background information: [[2021_Interview_with_Duan_Yuanyuan]], [[Longer_interview_version_dated_March_3_2021]], [[Interview_Univerlag_2022]].

Aim: Give guidance for the field, make some provocative but true statements. Reflect current discussions both in China and internationally. Refer to Web literature work by Chen Dingjia (CASS) and to "Intellectual History" by Chen Zhongyi.

'''汉学家吴漠汀：我为何翻译中国现当代文学?'''

近年来,随着中国作家屡在国际获奖，越来越多中国现当代作家的作品开始受到世界关注。德国汉学家吴漠汀翻译了鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国作家的众多作品。

中新社记者拟以“我为何翻译中国现当代文学?”为题，采访德国汉学家吴漠汀教授。

采访问题如下：

==1. 你不仅翻译了《红楼梦》德文版本，还先后翻译了鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国近现代作家的作品。你为何钟情于中国近现代文学？==

The main reason is, that from the perspective of world literature, Chinese literature is underrepresented in the world. Regarding the quality, the Qing Red Chamber Dreams in guanhua and Lu Xun's "The True Story of Ah Q" in early baihua were among the globally best pieces of literature of their time. In general, we can say that many works of Chinese literature of the 1920s was of a world leading high quality, also because the Chinese writers were in close exchange with the national literatures of the world.

Since 1930, when the League of Left Wing Writers was founded, Chinese authors changed from writing high quality literature for literature's sake to writing literature for political purpose, they voluntarily gave up quality and international compatibility. However, even under this environment, some excellent authors emerged like the ones I translated. So we still have a few works of excellent Chinese literature today. These works are worth to be translated and to made known to the world.

This is the more the case, since we have many more e.g. English, French, Spanish and German literature translated into Chinese than the other way round. One of the reasons why not much Chinese literature is translated into foreign languages is that China as a country ranks among the countries with the lowest popularity all around the world. A major reason for that is her corruption and autocratic system. If China can reform and open up more, also its culture will naturally become more popular all around the world.

Another reason why modern Chinese literature appeals to me is the local characteristics embedded in these works. For example, Mr. Jia Pingwa's works contain a large number of dialects, local traditions unique to his hometown, etc. His works are wonderful, but the amount of his works translated is much lower than the quality of his works deserves, because these parts are difficult to be translated into foreign languages. I think these distinctive cultures are also worth spreading, and I would be happy to translate such Chinese vernacular stories and bring them to the world.

Top Chinese literature of modern and contemporary times is extremely rich. Lu Xun has shaped the new vernacular. His whole life he was torn between the need he saw for political reform and his doubts, if literature can be effective in this respect. Among all international great writers, Lu Xun was the one who even stood above the Nobel Prize of Literature, when he declined to be listed as candidate for it. With Ah Q, Kong Yiji, The Madman's Diary, he wrote the internationally most advanced and modern literature of his time. Until today it is a desideratum to publish his Complete Works in English. I translated for example his essays on the book burning in Germany.

I also translated Yu Qiuyu's History of Calligraphy, which gives foreigners an in-depth inside into this important art and its role and position in Chinese cultural history, considering it the basis of all arts and as important as music, painting and literature.

Wang Meng has not only won the hearts of Chinese readers with his nostalgic revolution love story "Long live the Youth", but has also contributed a lot to the experimental development of the stream-of-consciousness style in literature. I have translated his short story "Hard Porridge" and his autobiographical book "China - Deciphered".

I very much enjoyed to translate Han Shaogong's works "Verblassender Mond über dem verlassenen Innenhof" (空院残月), which shows a dense atmosphere of 1930s China under Japanese occupation, and "Der Zorn des Buddha" (怒目金刚), which shows the stubborness of a rule breaker and also contains some supernatural elements.

Because of the life experience I share with Xu Zechen as student at Peking University, and therefore I felt very much at home when translating his "Ah Peking!".

Zhang Wei delivers both, on the one hand very intense descriptions of the struggle of men in nature and local sceneries with "Baummoos pflücken", "Meerwind", "Auf ins Maisfeld", "Fuchs und Wein", "Herbstzorn" und "Weintrauben im Herbstregen" and on the other hand the world of cadres between good intentions and the temptations of bribery with "Rette bitte den Künstler".

Although Han Han is better known as race driver and film regisseur, e.g. for the blockbuster "Four Seas", he is a successful and skilfull writer too, so I have translated his works "Three Gates", "Glorious Days", and "His Land". Compared to Guo Jingming, who is more celebrity than author, Han Han produces high quality literature, especially with his road novel "1988: I want to talk with the world", translated by Howard Goldblatt.

I also chose to translate Mian Mian's novel "Panda Sex" because I wanted to check, if it was really "rubbish literature" as it was once claimed by a critic. I visited her in Shanghai and discovered that her works are so authentic, because he mostly described her own life experience. The novel Panda Sex was composed with an experimental writing style: Only at the end of the novel, the reader understands that the recurring quotes in the novel are actual recordings, which Mian Mian took from philosophical talks at various parties in Shanghai.

In general, to support cultural attractiveness, the so-called "soft power" with "hard power" means, e.g. financial support, can backfire. The United States was long seen as a country where poor or criminal European immigrated to. It was a country of slavery and its racism was severe even until the 1970s. Since then, the United States have reformed and earned the trust of many other countries in the world. So without investing into soft power, it naturally became a soft superpower. People all over the world eat the unhealthy American fast food, simply because the United States has an attractiveness and people feel to be part of the "land of the free" or the "American dream" when they eat the food.

As I understand it, in 2000, the Chinese National People's Congress initially proposed a "go global" strategy. The Chinese government supports the export of Chinese culture financially especially since 2007. It also supports the translation of Chinese literature and propaganda books into foreign languages. In the beginning, the policy was not applied properly. The most funding was offered for propaganda books, and not from the perspective which works of literature and which fact books can be successful abroad. This practise has become better now. However, the sales figures of Chinese books abroad are still lowered because the partnering Chinese publishing houses make the final edit of the translations and have the final say how to design the covers. They often change the colors, take away the illustrations and eye-catching cover texts.

In this way, while many Chinese literary works have great potential for worldwide success, restrictions on how books look or are presented abroad sometimes undermine that potential. China still has a way to go in enhancing its own cultural appeal, and I hope that my translations will add to the effort to bring Chinese culture to the world.
主要是因为，从世界文学的角度来看，中国文学一直保持着良好的水平。《红楼梦》和《阿Q正传》从质量上讲是当时全球最好的文学作品中的代表作。总而言之，1920年代出现了许多在世界文学领域也称得上高质量的中国文学作品，其中缘由也是因为中国作家与世界各国的文学作品进行了密切交流。

自1930年中国左翼作家联盟成立以来，中国作家从为文学而文学变成了创作政治导向的文学，他们主动放弃了质量和国际化。然而，即使在这种环境下，也还是出现了一批优秀作家作品，比如我翻译的那些作品。所以今天仍然有一些优秀的中国文学作品。这些作品值得被翻译，让世界看见。

特别是当文学作品的引进多于译出时更是如此。中国文学作品被译介到国外的数量不多，原因之一是中国作为一个国家在全世界范围内的知名度最低。一个主要原因是中国的腐败和专制制度。如果中国能够实施改革开放政策，其文化也会自然而然在世界范围内变得更受欢迎。

中国现代文学吸引我的另一个原因是这些作品中蕴含的地方特色。例如，贾平凹先生的作品中包含了大量的方言、他家乡特有的地方传统等。他的作品很精彩，但其作品的翻译量却难以反映其作品应有的质量，因为这些部分很难被翻译成外语。我认为这些独特的文化也是值得传播的，我很愿意翻译这样的中国乡土故事，把它们带到世界上。

中国现当代的顶级文学是极其丰富的。鲁迅塑造了新的白话文。他的一生都在关注所看到的政治改革的需要和他的怀疑，即文学是否能在这方面发挥作用。在所有的国际大作家中，虽然当时鲁迅拒绝被列为诺贝尔文学奖的候选人，但其实他的作品甚至上高于诺贝尔文学奖的评奖标准的。他以《阿Q正传》《孔乙己》《狂人日记》几部作品写出了当时国际上最先进的现代文学。直到今天，用英文出版他的全集仍是一个宏愿。而我就翻译了他关于德国焚书的文章。

我还翻译了余秋雨的《书法史》，让外国人深入了解这一重要艺术及其在中国文化史上的作用和地位。书法是所有艺术的基础，与音乐、绘画和文学一样重要。
王蒙不仅以其怀旧的革命爱情故事《青春万岁》赢得了中国读者的心，而且对文学中意识流风格的实验性发展做出了很大贡献。我曾翻译过他的短篇小说《坚硬的稀粥》和他的自传书《中国-解密》。
我非常喜欢翻译韩少功的作品《空院残月》和《怒目金刚》，前者展示了一个规则破坏者的顽强精神，包含了一些超自然的元素。
因为我和徐则臣有共同的生活经历，都是北京大学的学生，所以我在翻译他的《啊，北京！》时感到非常自在。

张伟的书中阐述了两种情况，一种是如《采树鳔》《海的风》《钻玉米地》《狐狸和酒》《秋天的愤怒》以及《秋雨洗葡萄》这样的作品，情感强烈地描述了人类在自然和当地风景中的斗争，另一种则是如《请挽救艺术家》这样的作品，写出了干部的世界在善意和贿赂的诱惑之间的挣扎。

虽然韩寒更多的是以赛车手和电影评论家的身份为人所知，例如，以大片《四海》而闻名，但他也是一位成功而娴熟的作家，所以我翻译了他的作品《三道门》《光辉岁月》和《他的土地》。跟与其说是作家不如说是名人的郭敬明相比，韩寒的文学作品质量很高，特别是他的公路小说《1988：我想和这个世界谈谈》，由葛浩文翻译。

而我之所以选择翻译棉棉的小说《熊猫》，也是因为我想确认一下，它是否真的如一位评论家所说的那样是“垃圾文学”。于是我在上海拜访了她，一番了解后发现，她的作品是如此的真实，因为书中主要描述的是她自己的生活经历。小说《熊猫》使用的一种实验性的写作风格：直到小说结尾，读者才会发现小说中反复出现的引用其实是真实的录音，是棉棉在上海各种聚会上录下来的哲学谈话。

一般来说，为了支持文化的吸引力，所谓的“软实力”加上“硬实力”的手段，如财政支持，会适得其反。长期以来，美国被视为贫穷或接收难民的国家。它是一个奴隶制国家，其种族主义甚至在20世纪70年代之前都很严重。从那时起，美国已经进行了改革，并赢得了世界上许多其他国家的信任。因此，在没有对软实力进行投资的情况下，它自然成为了一个软性的超级大国。世界各地的人都在吃不健康的美国快餐，只是因为美国有一种吸引力，人们在吃这些食物时感到“自由之土”或是“美国梦”的一部分。

据我所知，在2000年，中国全国人民代表大会最初提出了中国文化“走出去”的战略。中国政府在财政上支持中国文化的出口，特别是2007年以来。中国还支持将中国文学和宣传书籍翻译成外国语言。一开始，这项政策并没有得到适当的应用。大部分资金是提供给宣传书籍的，而没有从传播效果的角度来考虑。现在这种做法已经有所改善。然而，中国图书在国外的销售额仍然很低，因为合作的中国出版社对译本进行了最后的编辑，并对如何设计封面有最终决定权。他们经常改变颜色，去掉插图和醒目的封面文字。

这样一来，虽然许多中国文学作品具有被成功译介的巨大潜力，但对书籍外观或在国外展示的限制有时会影响译介进程。中国在提高自己的文化吸引力方面还有一段路要走，我希望我的翻译能够为中国文化走向世界的努力添砖加瓦。

==2. 中国近现代文学的魅力何在？翻译近现代文学如何加深了你对中国的了解？==

Modern and contemporary literature is one of the best ways to understand a country and a culture. Authors have the ability to drag readers into their thoughts, to let them participate in their line of thoughts and let them look at China through Chinese eyes.

In modern Chinese literature one can see the sparks of ancient literature colliding with foreign literature. Lu Xun, for example, is not only a famous Chinese writer, thinker and revolutionary; in the process of translating Lu Xun's works, take ''Call to the Arms'' (Nahan) as an example, this work truly depicts the social life from the Xinhai Revolution to the May Fourth period, revealing the deep-seated contradictions, profoundly analyzing and attacking the old Chinese system and stereotypes, which provides readers with a new perspective to This provides readers with a new perspective to better understand the culture and characteristics of modern China. On the other hand, with the passage of time, new generations of authors have emerged in the literary world, such as the "post-80s" literature, describing the authors born after 1980. Especially after 2000, the "post-80s" writing, mainly youth literature, has achieved a brilliant success in the literary market.

Han Han is one of the more famous post-80s literary writers. In translating Han Han's "Triple Door", I learned that Han Han is full of wisdom, he uses his own unique narrative to express his understanding of the world, and when he finds himself in tension with the world, he is able to give a clever way to solve it. Han Han uses a humoristic critical surrealism to describe phenomena of contemporary Chinese society. Difficult for the translator is, that Han Han often uses traditional proverbs and then interpretes them not by their allegoric, but by their true meaning and creates a twist in the story line. Since the proverbs have different meanings in the target culture, it takes a long time to find solutions for these frequent turning points in Han Han's stories.

The works of Han Han and Lu Xun both reflect to a certain extent their different understanding of the times, and they have their own different views on different times, and when they reflect their thoughts on the times in their books, this in itself is a way to show their charm. The views of the authors of different eras have the characteristics of the people of different eras, and in understanding their thoughts and works is also the way one can understand China step by step.

中国近现代文学是理解中国及其中国文化本身最好的方式。作家能够让读者明白他们的想法，并且让读者们参与到他们的想法中来，让他们以中国的视野来观看中国。中国近现代文学中能够看到古代文学与外国文学碰撞产生的火花。比如鲁迅，他不仅是中国著名的文学家、思想家、革命家；在对鲁迅的作品进行翻译的过程中，拿《呐喊》为例，这部作品真实描绘了从辛亥革命到五四时期的社会生活，揭示了种种深层次矛盾，对中国旧有制度以及陈腐的传统观念进行了深刻的剖析与抨击，这给读者提供了一个新的角度来更好的了解中国近现代的文化与时代特点。另一方面，随着时间的流逝，一些新兴文学登上了文学界，比如“80后”文学。“80后”写作是新世纪之初中国最重要的文化现象。2000年以后，以青春文学为主体的“80后”写作在文学市场取得了辉煌的胜利。而韩寒则是“80后”文学写作中较有名气的一位。在对韩寒《三重门》进行翻译时，我了解到韩寒充满了智慧，他用自己独特的叙述方式将他对世界的理解表达出来，另外，当他发现自己与世界的紧张关系时，他能够给予一种巧妙的方法进行解决。韩寒与鲁迅的作品都在一定程度上能够反应他们对于时代不同的理解，对于不同的时代，他们有着自己不同的看法，而当他们将自己对时代的思考在书中体现出来时，这本身就是一种魅力展现的方式。不同时代作者的看法都具备了不同时代人的特性，在了解他们的思想和作品的过程中，也可以一步步了解中国。

==3. 很多文学作品在跨文化的翻译过程中，会让作品失去原本的魅力。那么，你在翻译中国近现代文学作品时，是如何克服翻译瓶颈的？和翻译中国古典文学有何不同之处？==

It is not true, that works of literature lose their original attraction when translated into a different language. That is a prejudice. Almost all literature we read today is translated literature. If you do not translate, you only have national literatures read by local people. If you want to win the nobel prize of literature, you need to be translated at least into English, and best also into Swedish.

Every original has its specific attraction. It can be low or high. If it may be of high attraction to foreign readers - which is not always the same as to be attractive to local readers - then it is worth to be translated. When you translate, you can either make it more attractive or less attractive. This depends on a lot of factors. One is, that you need to understand and appreciate the original fully. Many Chinese readers also cannot understand and appreciate a work fully. So the ideal translator is a foreigner, who has lived in China for several years. There are almost only native speakers of the target language, who produce successful translations in the literary field. The same is true for foreign literature: If it wants to be successful in the Chinese literary market, it needs to be translated by a Chinese translator. An even more ideal translator would be an author by her or himself. So the best poetry translation is done by poets who translated into their own language.

In the education process of translators, they are told that they should master the foreign language as well as their own language. But this is not possible except for people who grew up truly bilingual. Therefore, one should translate into one's own language in order to achieve the best success.

我认为这是一种偏见，实际上文学作品在跨文化的翻译过程中，并不会失去其原本的魅力。今天我们阅读的文学作品几乎全部都是译作。如果我们不把文学作品翻译成其他文字，那么我们国家的文学作品只会拥有本土读者；如果我们想要让作品走出去，最好获得诺贝尔文学奖，那就至少得把文学作品翻译成英文，当然最好还要译成瑞典语。

每一部文学作品都拥有或多或少的独特魅力。倘若一部文学作品在外国读者看来是极具魅力的，而本国读者却意见相左，我们把它译成外国文字则是一件很有意义的事情。但是我们在翻译文学作品的时候切忌改变其原本的魅力，既不能增加一分，也不能减少一分。要做到这一点需要考虑许多因素，一个就是我们必须对该文学作品有充分的理解和鉴赏。倘若本土读者对某些国内作品也无法充分地理解和鉴赏，那么翻译该作品的最佳译者可以是那些旅居该国多年的外国译者。通常成功的文学作品翻译大多是由译作语言为母语的译者来完成的，外国文学作品的翻译也同样如此。如果一部外国文学作品想要在中国文学市场取得成功，有必要请一位中国译者来翻译该作品。如果这位译者本人还是一位作者，那是最理想的情况了。这就不难理解为什么最好的诗歌翻译都是由那些译语为母语的诗人完成的。在译者学习翻译的过程中，往往要求他们必须熟练掌握一门外语，其熟练程度等同于其母语。这一点除了那些从小在双语环境里成长的并列双语者可能实现，对于其他人几乎是不切实际的。因此，译者往往是将外国作品翻译成自己的母语时才能取得更大的成就。

==4. 过去很长一段时期，西方对中国古典文学研究较多，而对现当代文学的翻译和研究较少。曾有外国翻译家直言：“中国当代文学在西方的处境如同沙漠。”这一现象背后的原因是什么？==

Of course the world is a desert, when it comes to Chinese literature. And this is unfair, because there are actually works of literature with a high quality in China.

In Germany, non-German literature accounts for 12,5% of literature, but Chinese literature only for 0,3% of literature. However, before I engaged in translation, we had 11 Chinese literary books per year being translated into German. With my engagement, this figure has roughly doubled. How did I achieve this? I gathered a group of young sinologists in Germany, who all joined into a translators workshop. In this workshop, we now translate about 10 books from Chinese into German, most of it works of literature. With this output, we have doubled the number of books translated from Chinese into German since more than a decade now.

The reason behind the desert phenomenon is, that Chinese literature is only as popular as the country is seen by the international community. The worldwide market for Russian literature broke down since end of February 2022, and at the same time the worldwide market for Ukrainian literature has skyrocketed. Since there was no change in quality, we can see from that that there are foreign perceptions and the image of a country, which plays into it. The easiest way for Chinese literature to become celebrated around the world would be to become a country, which is even more clean and even more free than today.

当然，说到中国文学，世界的确是一片荒漠。但其实中国文学受到了不公待遇，因为中国确实有高质量的文学作品。

在德国，非德国文学占文学总量的12.5%，但中国文学只占文学的0.3%。在我从事翻译工作之前，我们每年有11本中国文学作品被翻译成德语。随着我的参与，这个数字大约翻了一番。我是如何做到这一点的呢？我在德国召集一群年轻的汉学家加入了一个翻译工作坊。我们现在将大约10本书从中文译成德文，其中大部分是文学作品。有了这个成果，十多年来，我们从中文翻译成德文的书籍数量增加了一倍。

沙漠现象背后的原因是，中国文学只有在中国进入国际社会舞台才会受到欢迎。自2022年2月底以来,俄罗斯文学的全球市场已经崩溃,而与此同时,乌克兰文学的全球市场却急剧上升。由于质量没有变化，我们可以从中看出，国家形象在其中起作用。中国文学要想在世界范围内受到赞誉，最简单的方法就是成为一个更廉洁、自由的国家

==5. 近年来，中国近现代文学在西方“遇冷”的现象有所改变吗？目前的接受程度如何？哪些类型的中国近现代文学更容易吸引欧洲读者？==

There is the underlying problem of the popularity of China as a country in general in the eyes of people in America, Europe, and Africa. Especially in the United States we have seen a drop in popularity of China from 42% pro and 38% contra in 2008 to 22% pro and 73% contra in 2020 according to the Pew Research Center. Of course this drop in popularity is partly home made. So there are concrete measures to enhance the image of China in the world, e.g. reduction of corruption, enhancement of the rule of law, reliability, trust, power control, self-criticism regarding own problems and mistakes and the taking over of as much responsibility for peace and stability in the world as much China represents one fourth of the world population and is among the two largest economies in the world.

Literature itself can contribute its share by delivering high quality literature. Although most of Chinese literature is below world literature quality since the 1930s, there are still a few works worth translating. Some contemporary writers, such as Mo Yan, Liu Cixin, Yan Lianke, Su Tong, and Yu Hua, have already gained some influence among Western readers, but many more writers are still obscure. On the whole, Chinese literature has not yet developed a stable profile with its own characteristics among Western readers.

Chinese authors could also enhance the quality of their literature by learning several languages and reading the literature of other countries in their original languages. In 1920's China, Chinese writers naturally spoke different languages and also participated in the cultural exchange and translated literature. Through this intense cultural exchange, also Lu Xun's short story "The True Story of Ah Q" was translated into French and supported by the French author Romand Rollain.

Among the literary categories, science fiction, children's literature and online literature are more popular among Western readers, including European readers, while works with strong political content are less popular. According to a study by Ariadne Consulting, the scale of overseas users of Chinese online literature has reached more than 80 million in 2020, which has a very strong appeal to Western readers.

在美国、欧洲和非洲，中国作为一个国家本身的受欢迎度不高，这也影响了中国近现代文学在全球的传播。尤其是在美国，根据皮尤研究中心(Pew Research Center)的数据，可以看到中国的受欢迎程度从2008年的42%欢迎和38%不欢迎下降到2020年的22%欢迎和73%不欢迎。这使中国近现代文学在西方的传播仍不容乐观。

中国国家在西方受欢迎程度的下降，除国际原因之外也有一部分国内原因。对此，也有一些具体的措施，例如持续减少腐败、加强法治、可信度和自我批评，提升对权力机制的监管，以及继续为世界和平稳定作出应有的贡献。

文坛自身也可以多多产出高质量文学作品。自20世纪30年代以来，中国文学有时受政治因素影响，但高质量作品仍然较为丰富。像莫言、刘慈欣、阎连科、苏童、余华等一些当代作家已经在西方读者中具有一定的影响力，但更多的作家则依旧面目模糊。从整体上来说，中国文学尚未在西方读者中形成具有自身特色的稳定面貌。中国作家可以多阅读其他国家的文学作品，达到取长补短、兼收并蓄的效果。例如在20世纪20年代的中国，中国作家如鲁迅就积极参与文化交流和翻译。通过这种激烈的文化交流，鲁迅的短篇小说《阿Q正传》被翻译成法文，并得到了法国作家罗曼•罗兰的支持。

在文学类别中，科幻小说、儿童文学以及网络文学是西方读者包括欧洲读者较为欢迎的，而政治性强的作品则不太受欢迎。据艾瑞咨询研究显示，2020年中国网络文学海外用户规模已达到八千万以上，对西方读者有非常强的吸引力。

==6. 你扎实的语言基本功和翻译水平使你的作品在欧美汉学界引起了广泛关注。你认为翻译中国近现代文学能为中西文化交流做出怎样的贡献？==

If we want to better the situation of cultural exchange and mutual understanding, we may reform the country to make it more popular. We also need to bring people together. To get to know someone from the other country often changes the attitude towards the country. This can start with school partnerships and end with city partnerships. Of course there also needs to be found a long term solution between China's self-chosen isolation due to the Zero-Covid strategy and the open world around China.

We can also catch the attention of foreign readers with other cultural phenomena, which are received favorably. For example, the blockbuster movies of the 5th generation Chinese film directors has extremely pushed the reception of Chinese works of literature. Red Sorghum, Ju Dou, Life etc. are all works of literature adapted to films.

Another way is to introduce Chinese food culture with films like "The Wedding Banquet" or "Eat, drink, man, women" or Chinese martial arts with "Crouching Tiger, hidden dragon".

Moreover, the best way to understand a people a country a culture is by reading its modern literature. Through the text, the author can lead the reader into his mind and engage the reader in the trajectory of his thoughts, so that the reader can understand China through the eyes of the Chinese and break down prejudices. For example, An Lezhe and Luo Siwen's attempt to find a way out from a comparative philosophical perspective in their interpretation of the ''Analects'' successfully transmits ancient Chinese philosophical thought to the English-speaking world. Also Yu Dan's ''Confucius from the Heart'' has helped to export Confucian ideas internationally.

如果我们想要改善文化交流和相互理解的状况，除了上面罗列的方法之外，我们还需要让人们团结起来。通常来说，当人们真正了解了来自一个国家的人，他们常常会改变对这个国家的态度。因此我们可以多多与其他国家内部建立学校伙伴关系和城市伙伴关系等。当然，由于中国现在采取“清零”战略，选择自我隔离，而中国周边世界已经开放，我们需要找到一个行之有效的解决方案。

我们也可以用其他文化方式来吸引外国读者的注意，这个方法很受欢迎。例如，中国第五代电影导演拍摄的大片极大地推动了西方对中国文学作品的接受，《红高粱》、《菊豆》、《人生》等都是改编成电影的文学作品。

我们还通过电影《婚宴》、《饮食男女》等来介绍中国的饮食文化，或者通过电影《卧虎藏龙》来介绍中国的武术。

翻译中国近现代文学能够丰富世界文学，中国近现代文学中有许多优秀作品。这些作品值得被世界人民所看到。

此外，了解一个民族一个国家一种文化的最好方式就是通过阅读它的近现代文学。通过文字，作者可以带领读者进入他的思想，让读者参与他的思想轨迹，使读者能够通过中国人的眼睛了解中国，打破偏见。比如安乐哲和罗思文对《论语》进行阐释时尝试从比较哲学角度寻找出路，成功地把中国古代哲学思想传到英语世界。于丹的《论语心得》也帮助了全球传播儒学的道理。

==7. 近现代东西方文学有何交流与相互影响？==

China and the West in modern times has been the Western missionaries who came to China, the foreign students, and the overseas Chinese who emigrated. Western missionaries introduced classical Chinese literature to the West, such as James Legge who was one of the first to publish the Chinese Classics in English, whose purpose was to introduce Eastern culture, philosophical thought and customs to Western readers.

Chinese scholars, such as Zhu Shenghao, were among the first Chinese translators of Shakespeare's works, Guo Moruo of Goethe's works, and the quality and style of their translations are recognized by Shakespearean researchers at home and abroad. The mutual exchange of Eastern and Western literature in modern times has not only promoted the development of Chinese literature, but also enriched world literature. The rich variety of Western literature provides more choices for Chinese reading, not only ''Romeo and Juliet'' love stories, but also anti-utopian literature like ''Animal Farm''. Chinese literature also brings something different to the West in terms of vision and experience. Based on his international readings, Mo Yan has created his vernacular works, which give Western readers a sense of the Chinese vernacular.

The exchange of literature is rising. Currently, we have a peak in German children literature licences going to China.

Also, more Chinese literature is translated into foreign languages, also due to the sponsorship program by the government.

However, printing books with money does not replace a missing market demand. Only if the market itself asks for Chinese books, Chinese literature will increase its worldwide presence. And if that happens, sponsorship is also not needed any more and could be reduced to the much smaller budgets of translation sponsorship we see in other countries.

近代以来中西文化交流的主力是来华的西方传教士、留学生和移民海外的华侨华人。
西方传教士把中国古典文学介绍到了西方，比如理雅各出版了《中国经典》的第一卷，其目的就是为了向西方读者介绍东方的文化、哲学思想和风土人情。

还有中国的有识之士如朱生豪是中国翻译莎士比亚作品较早的人之一，郭沫若是歌德作品最早翻译家之一，其译文质量和风格卓具特色，为国内外莎士比亚研究者所公认。

近现代东西方文学相互交流，不仅促进了中国文学的发展，而且还丰富了世界文学。西方文学种类丰富，为中国人阅读提供了更多选择，不仅有《罗密欧与朱丽叶》这样的爱情故事，也有《动物农场》之类的反乌托邦文学。中国文学也会给西方带来一些不一样的视野和体验。莫言在读获得诺贝尔文学奖的全球文学作品的基础上写了乡土作品，让西方读者真切感受到中国的乡土人情。

文学的交流正在上升。目前，我们有一个德国儿童文学许可证前往中国的高峰。

此外，更多的中国文学作品被翻译成外语，这也是由于政府的赞助计划。

然而，用钱印书并不能取代缺失的市场需求。只有当市场本身需要中国书籍时，中国文学才会增加其在全世界的影响力。如果这样，赞助也就不再需要了，可以减少到我们在其他国家看到的小得多的翻译赞助的预算。

=受访者简介：=

吴漠汀(Martin Woesler)，男，生于1969年，德国著名汉学家、欧洲科学院院士、欧盟让•莫内讲席教授，德国维藤大学研究院、曾任德国慕尼黑应用语言大学中文系主任、罗马第三大学讲席教授、美国由他谷大学副教授。2019年9月受聘湖南师范大学潇湘学者特聘教授。主要研究领域为《红楼梦》、比较文学、翻译、跨文化交流、中国现当代文学。他通晓德语、汉语、英语，先后翻译鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国作家的作品。他同史华慈（Rainer Schwarz)先生共同翻译完成的《红楼梦》,是《红楼梦》首部完整德文译本。荣获2020年度中国政府友谊奖。

参考资料

https://www.sohu.com/a/442142_106055

外国翻译家：中国当代文学在西方的处境如同沙漠
2014-10-30 12:13

在昨天举行的一场“汉学与当代中国”座谈会上，面对采访的几位国外翻译家表示对中国当代文学作品在国外的翻译出版很不乐观，他们毫不留情地用“太差了”、“沙漠”、“怪怪的”等来形容中国当代文学在西方的处境，令记者感到意外。

怎么了

俄罗斯曾经三年没出版一本中国当代文学书籍

俄罗斯圣彼得堡国立大学东方系常务副主任罗季奥诺夫很形象的控诉中国当代文学在俄罗斯的“惨状”：“与政治经济的热相比，中国文学在俄罗斯不能说是冷的，但至少是凉的。”罗季奥诺夫介绍，“翻译逆差明显，达到了20倍，俄罗斯的80后和90后根本就不知道当代中国文学是什么，他们只了解西方文学。”

据他统计，1990年到2005年这15年间，中国当代文学在俄罗斯一共只出版了8本书，平均两年一本，“简直是沙漠”，2005年到2008年因为有合作项目，出版了几本书，2008年金融危机后到2010年的3年间，一本书也没有，2011年出版了1本，才卖出去1000册，2012年好一点，出版了2本，一共卖出去8300册。

加拿大西门菲莎大学教授、汉学家Jan Walls痴迷中国文化，不但给自己起了个地道的中文名字王健，还会表演数来宝。“我注意到，2013年我们的作家门罗得了诺贝尔文学奖后，中国的出版社出版了9本她的小说，而2012年莫言得了诺奖后，却没有同等的待遇，加拿大并没有因为莫言得奖就多出版他的书。”王健说，加拿大的汉学家和翻译家不少，但有个共同的“毛病”，就是重视中国古典文学，轻视中国当代文学，包括他自己，作为叶嘉莹的学生，也更喜欢翻译古诗词。

西班牙马德里自治大学东亚研究中心主任、翻译家达西安娜·菲萨克，在上世纪80年代就翻译了大量的巴金、钱钟书等名家的作品到西班牙。她也直言中国当代文学在西班牙的境况不乐观。

为什么

中国当代作品的翻译连资深汉学家都发憷

对于中国当代文学作品不被国外接受的另外一个原因，是跨文化的翻译过程让作品失去了其魅力。土耳其安卡拉大学中文系主任欧凯带着几个中文流利的博士生来中国交流，他指了指自己的学生，“土耳其目前中国文学的大部分译者都是我的学生，我不应该这样直接批评我的学生，但我必须要说，翻译得太差了，很多错误。”

欧凯的手机里面存着许多张图书的图片，每一张里都有用红色笔圈出来的字句。欧凯向《北京晚报》记者展示这些他随时翻看的翻译作品，其中有铁凝的《永远有多远》，欧凯很喜欢铁凝的文字，“可是你看，这本书的名字就翻译错了，还有王刚的作品《英格力士》，书名直接翻译成《英语》了，这怎么能一样呢。”欧凯又翻到一本莫言的作品，其中的“八路”翻译成了“第八大道”：“他们不了解中国文化，不了解创作背后的含义，如果我是普通读者，到书店里拿起这样一本书翻一下，根本不会去买。”

这种翻译的困难有时也并不只是年轻的译者中文水平有限所致，而是中西文化差异过大。菲萨克告诉记者，尽管已经有三十年的翻译经验，但是在翻译当代作品时还是发憷：“翻译当代的文学作品有些困难，大部分都是通过英文和法文的译本再翻译成西班牙文。”这样就造成了二次转述中和原文更大的误差。她还提到，中国曾经组织了一批西班牙语好的外语人才，将中国作品翻译到西班牙。“我不认为这种做法可行，因为我看了书以后，觉得语言都是怪怪的，读者看过之后可能更觉得中国是个距离遥远的文化了。”

怎么办

这事儿需要政府牵引靠个人力量肯定不行

欧凯的建议很直接，希望土耳其政府和中国政府共同为翻译作品的质量把关。“政府必须介入，之前的翻译都是很个人的事情，喜欢哪本书，跟出版社说，就开始翻译，根本无法保证翻译的质量。”欧凯认为，可以成立一个委员会，监督和审查翻译的质量，为作品严格把关，“这件事情肯定要政府去做，靠个人的力量是不行的。”

罗季奥诺夫则提出了具体的建议，希望俄罗斯的孔子学院和中国作家协会合作推出翻译项目，“不但要翻译，更要推广，不是把书出版就行了，还要大力推广，比如莫言和余华这样一批有名气的中国作家，完全可以走商业宣传的方式。”罗季奥诺夫也敏感地提出，在翻译作品时要特别注意本土读者的接受程度：“我发现很多在中国特别受欢迎的作品，俄罗斯人很不喜欢，甚至还会反感，引起对于中国人的误解，挑选什么样的文学作品很关键。”

菲萨克一直以来担心的西班牙“缺少真正懂中文的人”的人才不足问题，随着2008年西班牙大学开始招收本科汉语专业的学生有了很大改变，可以寄希望于后辈：“目前已经培养了一批年轻的汉学家，真正在搞翻译，真正因为喜欢中国文学才会做这件事。”

同样为人才担心的加拿大学者王健也说，别看加拿大面积大，但是人口还不及云南省的人口，翻译人才就更少了。“现在有一个现象，是中国移民到加拿大，在大学继续学习中国文学的学者们，有这样一批中青年学者在从事翻译工作，都是自发的。”王健说。本报记者陈梦溪返回搜狐，查看更多

Interview by Wan Shuyuan 2022

2022-04-23T16:23:17Z

Bebery: /* 3. 很多文学作品在跨文化的翻译过程中，会让作品失去原本的魅力。那么，你在翻译中国近现代文学作品时，是如何克服翻译瓶颈的？和翻译中国古典文学有何不同之处？ */

Back to [[JM]] page

Links to other interviews as background information: [[2021_Interview_with_Duan_Yuanyuan]], [[Longer_interview_version_dated_March_3_2021]], [[Interview_Univerlag_2022]].

Aim: Give guidance for the field, make some provocative but true statements. Reflect current discussions both in China and internationally. Refer to Web literature work by Chen Dingjia (CASS) and to "Intellectual History" by Chen Zhongyi.

'''汉学家吴漠汀：我为何翻译中国现当代文学?'''

近年来,随着中国作家屡在国际获奖，越来越多中国现当代作家的作品开始受到世界关注。德国汉学家吴漠汀翻译了鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国作家的众多作品。

中新社记者拟以“我为何翻译中国现当代文学?”为题，采访德国汉学家吴漠汀教授。

采访问题如下：

==1. 你不仅翻译了《红楼梦》德文版本，还先后翻译了鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国近现代作家的作品。你为何钟情于中国近现代文学？==

The main reason is, that from the perspective of world literature, Chinese literature is underrepresented in the world. Regarding the quality, the Qing Red Chamber Dreams in guanhua and Lu Xun's "The True Story of Ah Q" in early baihua were among the globally best pieces of literature of their time. In general, we can say that many works of Chinese literature of the 1920s was of a world leading high quality, also because the Chinese writers were in close exchange with the national literatures of the world.

Since 1930, when the League of Left Wing Writers was founded, Chinese authors changed from writing high quality literature for literature's sake to writing literature for political purpose, they voluntarily gave up quality and international compatibility. However, even under this environment, some excellent authors emerged like the ones I translated. So we still have a few works of excellent Chinese literature today. These works are worth to be translated and to made known to the world.

This is the more the case, since we have many more e.g. English, French, Spanish and German literature translated into Chinese than the other way round. One of the reasons why not much Chinese literature is translated into foreign languages is that China as a country ranks among the countries with the lowest popularity all around the world. A major reason for that is her corruption and autocratic system. If China can reform and open up more, also its culture will naturally become more popular all around the world.

Another reason why modern Chinese literature appeals to me is the local characteristics embedded in these works. For example, Mr. Jia Pingwa's works contain a large number of dialects, local traditions unique to his hometown, etc. His works are wonderful, but the amount of his works translated is much lower than the quality of his works deserves, because these parts are difficult to be translated into foreign languages. I think these distinctive cultures are also worth spreading, and I would be happy to translate such Chinese vernacular stories and bring them to the world.

Top Chinese literature of modern and contemporary times is extremely rich. Lu Xun has shaped the new vernacular. His whole life he was torn between the need he saw for political reform and his doubts, if literature can be effective in this respect. Among all international great writers, Lu Xun was the one who even stood above the Nobel Prize of Literature, when he declined to be listed as candidate for it. With Ah Q, Kong Yiji, The Madman's Diary, he wrote the internationally most advanced and modern literature of his time. Until today it is a desideratum to publish his Complete Works in English. I translated for example his essays on the book burning in Germany.

I also translated Yu Qiuyu's History of Calligraphy, which gives foreigners an in-depth inside into this important art and its role and position in Chinese cultural history, considering it the basis of all arts and as important as music, painting and literature.

Wang Meng has not only won the hearts of Chinese readers with his nostalgic revolution love story "Long live the Youth", but has also contributed a lot to the experimental development of the stream-of-consciousness style in literature. I have translated his short story "Hard Porridge" and his autobiographical book "China - Deciphered".

I very much enjoyed to translate Han Shaogong's works "Verblassender Mond über dem verlassenen Innenhof" (空院残月), which shows a dense atmosphere of 1930s China under Japanese occupation, and "Der Zorn des Buddha" (怒目金刚), which shows the stubborness of a rule breaker and also contains some supernatural elements.

Because of the life experience I share with Xu Zechen as student at Peking University, and therefore I felt very much at home when translating his "Ah Peking!".

Zhang Wei delivers both, on the one hand very intense descriptions of the struggle of men in nature and local sceneries with "Baummoos pflücken", "Meerwind", "Auf ins Maisfeld", "Fuchs und Wein", "Herbstzorn" und "Weintrauben im Herbstregen" and on the other hand the world of cadres between good intentions and the temptations of bribery with "Rette bitte den Künstler".

Although Han Han is better known as race driver and film regisseur, e.g. for the blockbuster "Four Seas", he is a successful and skilfull writer too, so I have translated his works "Three Gates", "Glorious Days", and "His Land". Compared to Guo Jingming, who is more celebrity than author, Han Han produces high quality literature, especially with his road novel "1988: I want to talk with the world", translated by Howard Goldblatt.

I also chose to translate Mian Mian's novel "Panda Sex" because I wanted to check, if it was really "rubbish literature" as it was once claimed by a critic. I visited her in Shanghai and discovered that her works are so authentic, because he mostly described her own life experience. The novel Panda Sex was composed with an experimental writing style: Only at the end of the novel, the reader understands that the recurring quotes in the novel are actual recordings, which Mian Mian took from philosophical talks at various parties in Shanghai.

In general, to support cultural attractiveness, the so-called "soft power" with "hard power" means, e.g. financial support, can backfire. The United States was long seen as a country where poor or criminal European immigrated to. It was a country of slavery and its racism was severe even until the 1970s. Since then, the United States have reformed and earned the trust of many other countries in the world. So without investing into soft power, it naturally became a soft superpower. People all over the world eat the unhealthy American fast food, simply because the United States has an attractiveness and people feel to be part of the "land of the free" or the "American dream" when they eat the food.

As I understand it, in 2000, the Chinese National People's Congress initially proposed a "go global" strategy. The Chinese government supports the export of Chinese culture financially especially since 2007. It also supports the translation of Chinese literature and propaganda books into foreign languages. In the beginning, the policy was not applied properly. The most funding was offered for propaganda books, and not from the perspective which works of literature and which fact books can be successful abroad. This practise has become better now. However, the sales figures of Chinese books abroad are still lowered because the partnering Chinese publishing houses make the final edit of the translations and have the final say how to design the covers. They often change the colors, take away the illustrations and eye-catching cover texts.

In this way, while many Chinese literary works have great potential for worldwide success, restrictions on how books look or are presented abroad sometimes undermine that potential. China still has a way to go in enhancing its own cultural appeal, and I hope that my translations will add to the effort to bring Chinese culture to the world.
主要是因为，从世界文学的角度来看，中国文学一直保持着良好的水平。《红楼梦》和《阿Q正传》从质量上讲是当时全球最好的文学作品中的代表作。总而言之，1920年代出现了许多在世界文学领域也称得上高质量的中国文学作品，其中缘由也是因为中国作家与世界各国的文学作品进行了密切交流。

自1930年中国左翼作家联盟成立以来，中国作家从为文学而文学变成了创作政治导向的文学，他们主动放弃了质量和国际化。然而，即使在这种环境下，也还是出现了一批优秀作家作品，比如我翻译的那些作品。所以今天仍然有一些优秀的中国文学作品。这些作品值得被翻译，让世界看见。

特别是当文学作品的引进多于译出时更是如此。中国文学作品被译介到国外的数量不多，原因之一是中国作为一个国家在全世界范围内的知名度最低。一个主要原因是中国的腐败和专制制度。如果中国能够实施改革开放政策，其文化也会自然而然在世界范围内变得更受欢迎。

中国现代文学吸引我的另一个原因是这些作品中蕴含的地方特色。例如，贾平凹先生的作品中包含了大量的方言、他家乡特有的地方传统等。他的作品很精彩，但其作品的翻译量却难以反映其作品应有的质量，因为这些部分很难被翻译成外语。我认为这些独特的文化也是值得传播的，我很愿意翻译这样的中国乡土故事，把它们带到世界上。

中国现当代的顶级文学是极其丰富的。鲁迅塑造了新的白话文。他的一生都在关注所看到的政治改革的需要和他的怀疑，即文学是否能在这方面发挥作用。在所有的国际大作家中，虽然当时鲁迅拒绝被列为诺贝尔文学奖的候选人，但其实他的作品甚至上高于诺贝尔文学奖的评奖标准的。他以《阿Q正传》《孔乙己》《狂人日记》几部作品写出了当时国际上最先进的现代文学。直到今天，用英文出版他的全集仍是一个宏愿。而我就翻译了他关于德国焚书的文章。

我还翻译了余秋雨的《书法史》，让外国人深入了解这一重要艺术及其在中国文化史上的作用和地位。书法是所有艺术的基础，与音乐、绘画和文学一样重要。
王蒙不仅以其怀旧的革命爱情故事《青春万岁》赢得了中国读者的心，而且对文学中意识流风格的实验性发展做出了很大贡献。我曾翻译过他的短篇小说《坚硬的稀粥》和他的自传书《中国-解密》。
我非常喜欢翻译韩少功的作品《空院残月》和《怒目金刚》，前者展示了一个规则破坏者的顽强精神，包含了一些超自然的元素。
因为我和徐则臣有共同的生活经历，都是北京大学的学生，所以我在翻译他的《啊，北京！》时感到非常自在。

张伟的书中阐述了两种情况，一种是如《采树鳔》《海的风》《钻玉米地》《狐狸和酒》《秋天的愤怒》以及《秋雨洗葡萄》这样的作品，情感强烈地描述了人类在自然和当地风景中的斗争，另一种则是如《请挽救艺术家》这样的作品，写出了干部的世界在善意和贿赂的诱惑之间的挣扎。

虽然韩寒更多的是以赛车手和电影评论家的身份为人所知，例如，以大片《四海》而闻名，但他也是一位成功而娴熟的作家，所以我翻译了他的作品《三道门》《光辉岁月》和《他的土地》。跟与其说是作家不如说是名人的郭敬明相比，韩寒的文学作品质量很高，特别是他的公路小说《1988：我想和这个世界谈谈》，由葛浩文翻译。

而我之所以选择翻译棉棉的小说《熊猫》，也是因为我想确认一下，它是否真的如一位评论家所说的那样是“垃圾文学”。于是我在上海拜访了她，一番了解后发现，她的作品是如此的真实，因为书中主要描述的是她自己的生活经历。小说《熊猫》使用的一种实验性的写作风格：直到小说结尾，读者才会发现小说中反复出现的引用其实是真实的录音，是棉棉在上海各种聚会上录下来的哲学谈话。

一般来说，为了支持文化的吸引力，所谓的“软实力”加上“硬实力”的手段，如财政支持，会适得其反。长期以来，美国被视为贫穷或接收难民的国家。它是一个奴隶制国家，其种族主义甚至在20世纪70年代之前都很严重。从那时起，美国已经进行了改革，并赢得了世界上许多其他国家的信任。因此，在没有对软实力进行投资的情况下，它自然成为了一个软性的超级大国。世界各地的人都在吃不健康的美国快餐，只是因为美国有一种吸引力，人们在吃这些食物时感到“自由之土”或是“美国梦”的一部分。

据我所知，在2000年，中国全国人民代表大会最初提出了中国文化“走出去”的战略。中国政府在财政上支持中国文化的出口，特别是2007年以来。中国还支持将中国文学和宣传书籍翻译成外国语言。一开始，这项政策并没有得到适当的应用。大部分资金是提供给宣传书籍的，而没有从传播效果的角度来考虑。现在这种做法已经有所改善。然而，中国图书在国外的销售额仍然很低，因为合作的中国出版社对译本进行了最后的编辑，并对如何设计封面有最终决定权。他们经常改变颜色，去掉插图和醒目的封面文字。

这样一来，虽然许多中国文学作品具有被成功译介的巨大潜力，但对书籍外观或在国外展示的限制有时会影响译介进程。中国在提高自己的文化吸引力方面还有一段路要走，我希望我的翻译能够为中国文化走向世界的努力添砖加瓦。

==2. 中国近现代文学的魅力何在？翻译近现代文学如何加深了你对中国的了解？==

Modern and contemporary literature is one of the best ways to understand a country and a culture. Authors have the ability to drag readers into their thoughts, to let them participate in their line of thoughts and let them look at China through Chinese eyes.

In modern Chinese literature one can see the sparks of ancient literature colliding with foreign literature. Lu Xun, for example, is not only a famous Chinese writer, thinker and revolutionary; in the process of translating Lu Xun's works, take ''Call to the Arms'' (Nahan) as an example, this work truly depicts the social life from the Xinhai Revolution to the May Fourth period, revealing the deep-seated contradictions, profoundly analyzing and attacking the old Chinese system and stereotypes, which provides readers with a new perspective to This provides readers with a new perspective to better understand the culture and characteristics of modern China. On the other hand, with the passage of time, new generations of authors have emerged in the literary world, such as the "post-80s" literature, describing the authors born after 1980. Especially after 2000, the "post-80s" writing, mainly youth literature, has achieved a brilliant success in the literary market.

Han Han is one of the more famous post-80s literary writers. In translating Han Han's "Triple Door", I learned that Han Han is full of wisdom, he uses his own unique narrative to express his understanding of the world, and when he finds himself in tension with the world, he is able to give a clever way to solve it. Han Han uses a humoristic critical surrealism to describe phenomena of contemporary Chinese society. Difficult for the translator is, that Han Han often uses traditional proverbs and then interpretes them not by their allegoric, but by their true meaning and creates a twist in the story line. Since the proverbs have different meanings in the target culture, it takes a long time to find solutions for these frequent turning points in Han Han's stories.

The works of Han Han and Lu Xun both reflect to a certain extent their different understanding of the times, and they have their own different views on different times, and when they reflect their thoughts on the times in their books, this in itself is a way to show their charm. The views of the authors of different eras have the characteristics of the people of different eras, and in understanding their thoughts and works is also the way one can understand China step by step.

中国近现代文学是理解中国及其中国文化本身最好的方式。作家能够让读者明白他们的想法，并且让读者们参与到他们的想法中来，让他们以中国的视野来观看中国。中国近现代文学中能够看到古代文学与外国文学碰撞产生的火花。比如鲁迅，他不仅是中国著名的文学家、思想家、革命家；在对鲁迅的作品进行翻译的过程中，拿《呐喊》为例，这部作品真实描绘了从辛亥革命到五四时期的社会生活，揭示了种种深层次矛盾，对中国旧有制度以及陈腐的传统观念进行了深刻的剖析与抨击，这给读者提供了一个新的角度来更好的了解中国近现代的文化与时代特点。另一方面，随着时间的流逝，一些新兴文学登上了文学界，比如“80后”文学。“80后”写作是新世纪之初中国最重要的文化现象。2000年以后，以青春文学为主体的“80后”写作在文学市场取得了辉煌的胜利。而韩寒则是“80后”文学写作中较有名气的一位。在对韩寒《三重门》进行翻译时，我了解到韩寒充满了智慧，他用自己独特的叙述方式将他对世界的理解表达出来，另外，当他发现自己与世界的紧张关系时，他能够给予一种巧妙的方法进行解决。韩寒与鲁迅的作品都在一定程度上能够反应他们对于时代不同的理解，对于不同的时代，他们有着自己不同的看法，而当他们将自己对时代的思考在书中体现出来时，这本身就是一种魅力展现的方式。不同时代作者的看法都具备了不同时代人的特性，在了解他们的思想和作品的过程中，也可以一步步了解中国。

==3. 很多文学作品在跨文化的翻译过程中，会让作品失去原本的魅力。那么，你在翻译中国近现代文学作品时，是如何克服翻译瓶颈的？和翻译中国古典文学有何不同之处？==

It is not true, that works of literature lose their original attraction when translated into a different language. That is a prejudice. Almost all literature we read today is translated literature. If you do not translate, you only have national literatures read by local people. If you want to win the nobel prize of literature, you need to be translated at least into English, and best also into Swedish.

Every original has its specific attraction. It can be low or high. If it may be of high attraction to foreign readers - which is not always the same as to be attractive to local readers - then it is worth to be translated. When you translate, you can either make it more attractive or less attractive. This depends on a lot of factors. One is, that you need to understand and appreciate the original fully. Many Chinese readers also cannot understand and appreciate a work fully. So the ideal translator is a foreigner, who has lived in China for several years. There are almost only native speakers of the target language, who produce successful translations in the literary field. The same is true for foreign literature: If it wants to be successful in the Chinese literary market, it needs to be translated by a Chinese translator. An even more ideal translator would be an author by her or himself. So the best poetry translation is done by poets who translated into their own language.

In the education process of translators, they are told that they should master the foreign language as well as their own language. But this is not possible except for people who grew up truly bilingual. Therefore, one should translate into one's own language in order to achieve the best success.

我认为这是一种偏见，实际上文学作品在跨文化的翻译过程中，并不会失去其原本的魅力。今天我们阅读的文学作品几乎全部都是译作。如果我们不把文学作品翻译成其他文字，那么我们国家的文学作品只会拥有本土读者；如果我们想要让作品走出去，最好获得诺贝尔文学奖，那就至少得把文学作品翻译成英文，当然最好还要译成瑞典语。

每一部文学作品都拥有或多或少的独特魅力。倘若一部文学作品在外国读者看来是极具魅力的，而本国读者却意见相左，我们把它译成外国文字则是一件很有意义的事情。但是我们在翻译文学作品的时候切忌改变其原本的魅力，既不能增加一分，也不能减少一分。要做到这一点需要考虑许多因素，一个就是我们必须对该文学作品有充分的理解和鉴赏。倘若本土读者对某些国内作品也无法充分地理解和鉴赏，那么翻译该作品的最佳译者可以是那些旅居该国多年的外国译者。通常成功的文学作品翻译大多是由译作语言为母语的译者来完成的，外国文学作品的翻译也同样如此。如果一部外国文学作品想要在中国文学市场取得成功，有必要请一位中国译者来翻译该作品。如果这位译者本人还是一位作者，那是最理想的情况了。这就不难理解为什么最好的诗歌翻译都是由那些译语为母语的诗人完成的。在译者学习翻译的过程中，往往要求他们必须熟练掌握一门外语，其熟练程度等同于其母语。这一点除了那些从小在双语环境里成长的并列双语者可能实现，对于其他人几乎是不切实际的。因此，译者往往是将外国作品翻译成自己的母语时才能取得更大的成就。

==4. 过去很长一段时期，西方对中国古典文学研究较多，而对现当代文学的翻译和研究较少。曾有外国翻译家直言：“中国当代文学在西方的处境如同沙漠。”这一现象背后的原因是什么？==

Of course the world is a desert, when it comes to Chinese literature. And this is unfair, because there are actually works of literature with a high quality in China.

In Germany, non-German literature accounts for 12,5% of literature, but Chinese literature only for 0,3% of literature. However, before I engaged in translation, we had 11 Chinese literary books per year being translated into German. With my engagement, this figure has roughly doubled. How did I achieve this? I gathered a group of young sinologists in Germany, who all joined into a translators workshop. In this workshop, we now translate about 10 books from Chinese into German, most of it works of literature. With this output, we have doubled the number of books translated from Chinese into German since more than a decade now.

The reason behind the desert phenomenon is, that Chinese literature is only as popular as the country is seen by the international community. The worldwide market for Russian literature broke down since end of February 2022, and at the same time the worldwide market for Ukrainian literature has skyrocketed. Since there was no change in quality, we can see from that that there are foreign perceptions and the image of a country, which plays into it. The easiest way for Chinese literature to become celebrated around the world would be to become a country, which is even more clean and even more free than today.

因此我给自己定了一个目标：将更多的中国文学作品翻译成我的母语——德语。我在德国召集了一些年轻的汉学家加入到一个翻译工作室，一起从事翻译工作。我们目前已经完成了10本中文作品的德语翻译，其中大部分是文学作品。因为我们的努力使中国书籍德译数量同十年前比翻了一番。
造成文学“沙漠化现象”的原因则是：文学作品的受欢迎程度与该国在世界的受欢迎程度相关。从2022年2月底开始，俄罗斯文学的全球市场已经崩溃，而与此同时我们发现乌克兰文学的全球市场却迅猛增长。我们可以看到两国文学作品的质量并没有发生任何变化，是外国对于两国的看法以及国家自身的形象左右了其文学作品的受欢迎度。让中国文学作品誉满全球的最简单的办法就是中国政府进一步加强环境保护和人权保障工作。
其次因为各个国家的意识形态不同，难免会使中国当代文学在国外出现接受难或者认知偏差的情况。我想指出的是无论是哪国的文学作品，如果遭遇过度意识形态化、过度政治化的解读、阐释与译介，其文学性与诗学价值很可能会大打折扣甚至完全被遮蔽。
文化心态与接受心态因素：文化输入和文化输出国地位的对比会影响目标文化的输入意愿从而左右文化输出的成效。文化接受的不均衡性必然导致文化接受语境以及读者接受心态的不均衡现象，而文化层面的“傲慢”与“偏见”会影响翻译作品和翻译策略的选择，进一步影响到作品的传播。因而中国文学作品倘若需要走出去，首先参加这个交流的人必须充分准确地认识自己的文化，同时也充分了解接收国的文化。
翻译副文本因素：副文本即解读文本，是文本的重要构建形态，译作前言是构成副文本的重要组成部分。译者通过前言介绍作品的创作者、评价其作品、指导读者了解作品艺术特色及解读作品。中国出版商往往会将我译作的前言部分略去，这样会影响外国读者对该作品的了解，使中国文学作品在海外传播出现接受障碍。
五是对国外目标读者群体的研究不够深入会影响其对于中国当代文学作品的认知和接受程度。

==5. 近年来，中国近现代文学在西方“遇冷”的现象有所改变吗？目前的接受程度如何？哪些类型的中国近现代文学更容易吸引欧洲读者？==

There is the underlying problem of the popularity of China as a country in general in the eyes of people in America, Europe, and Africa. Especially in the United States we have seen a drop in popularity of China from 42% pro and 38% contra in 2008 to 22% pro and 73% contra in 2020 according to the Pew Research Center. Of course this drop in popularity is partly home made. So there are concrete measures to enhance the image of China in the world, e.g. reduction of corruption, enhancement of the rule of law, reliability, trust, power control, self-criticism regarding own problems and mistakes and the taking over of as much responsibility for peace and stability in the world as much China represents one fourth of the world population and is among the two largest economies in the world.

Literature itself can contribute its share by delivering high quality literature. Although most of Chinese literature is below world literature quality since the 1930s, there are still a few works worth translating. Some contemporary writers, such as Mo Yan, Liu Cixin, Yan Lianke, Su Tong, and Yu Hua, have already gained some influence among Western readers, but many more writers are still obscure. On the whole, Chinese literature has not yet developed a stable profile with its own characteristics among Western readers.

Chinese authors could also enhance the quality of their literature by learning several languages and reading the literature of other countries in their original languages. In 1920's China, Chinese writers naturally spoke different languages and also participated in the cultural exchange and translated literature. Through this intense cultural exchange, also Lu Xun's short story "The True Story of Ah Q" was translated into French and supported by the French author Romand Rollain.

Among the literary categories, science fiction, children's literature and online literature are more popular among Western readers, including European readers, while works with strong political content are less popular. According to a study by Ariadne Consulting, the scale of overseas users of Chinese online literature has reached more than 80 million in 2020, which has a very strong appeal to Western readers.

在美国、欧洲和非洲，中国作为一个国家本身的受欢迎度不高，这也影响了中国近现代文学在全球的传播。尤其是在美国，根据皮尤研究中心(Pew Research Center)的数据，可以看到中国的受欢迎程度从2008年的42%欢迎和38%不欢迎下降到2020年的22%欢迎和73%不欢迎。这使中国近现代文学在西方的传播仍不容乐观。

中国国家在西方受欢迎程度的下降，除国际原因之外也有一部分国内原因。对此，也有一些具体的措施，例如持续减少腐败、加强法治、可信度和自我批评，提升对权力机制的监管，以及继续为世界和平稳定作出应有的贡献。

文坛自身也可以多多产出高质量文学作品。自20世纪30年代以来，中国文学有时受政治因素影响，但高质量作品仍然较为丰富。像莫言、刘慈欣、阎连科、苏童、余华等一些当代作家已经在西方读者中具有一定的影响力，但更多的作家则依旧面目模糊。从整体上来说，中国文学尚未在西方读者中形成具有自身特色的稳定面貌。中国作家可以多阅读其他国家的文学作品，达到取长补短、兼收并蓄的效果。例如在20世纪20年代的中国，中国作家如鲁迅就积极参与文化交流和翻译。通过这种激烈的文化交流，鲁迅的短篇小说《阿Q正传》被翻译成法文，并得到了法国作家罗曼•罗兰的支持。

在文学类别中，科幻小说、儿童文学以及网络文学是西方读者包括欧洲读者较为欢迎的，而政治性强的作品则不太受欢迎。据艾瑞咨询研究显示，2020年中国网络文学海外用户规模已达到八千万以上，对西方读者有非常强的吸引力。

==6. 你扎实的语言基本功和翻译水平使你的作品在欧美汉学界引起了广泛关注。你认为翻译中国近现代文学能为中西文化交流做出怎样的贡献？==

If we want to better the situation of cultural exchange and mutual understanding, we may reform the country to make it more popular. We also need to bring people together. To get to know someone from the other country often changes the attitude towards the country. This can start with school partnerships and end with city partnerships. Of course there also needs to be found a long term solution between China's self-chosen isolation due to the Zero-Covid strategy and the open world around China.

We can also catch the attention of foreign readers with other cultural phenomena, which are received favorably. For example, the blockbuster movies of the 5th generation Chinese film directors has extremely pushed the reception of Chinese works of literature. Red Sorghum, Ju Dou, Life etc. are all works of literature adapted to films.

Another way is to introduce Chinese food culture with films like "The Wedding Banquet" or "Eat, drink, man, women" or Chinese martial arts with "Crouching Tiger, hidden dragon".

Moreover, the best way to understand a people a country a culture is by reading its modern literature. Through the text, the author can lead the reader into his mind and engage the reader in the trajectory of his thoughts, so that the reader can understand China through the eyes of the Chinese and break down prejudices. For example, An Lezhe and Luo Siwen's attempt to find a way out from a comparative philosophical perspective in their interpretation of the ''Analects'' successfully transmits ancient Chinese philosophical thought to the English-speaking world. Also Yu Dan's ''Confucius from the Heart'' has helped to export Confucian ideas internationally.

如果我们想要改善文化交流和相互理解的状况，除了上面罗列的方法之外，我们还需要让人们团结起来。通常来说，当人们真正了解了来自一个国家的人，他们常常会改变对这个国家的态度。因此我们可以多多与其他国家内部建立学校伙伴关系和城市伙伴关系等。当然，由于中国现在采取“清零”战略，选择自我隔离，而中国周边世界已经开放，我们需要找到一个行之有效的解决方案。

我们也可以用其他文化方式来吸引外国读者的注意，这个方法很受欢迎。例如，中国第五代电影导演拍摄的大片极大地推动了西方对中国文学作品的接受，《红高粱》、《菊豆》、《人生》等都是改编成电影的文学作品。

我们还通过电影《婚宴》、《饮食男女》等来介绍中国的饮食文化，或者通过电影《卧虎藏龙》来介绍中国的武术。

翻译中国近现代文学能够丰富世界文学，中国近现代文学中有许多优秀作品。这些作品值得被世界人民所看到。

此外，了解一个民族一个国家一种文化的最好方式就是通过阅读它的近现代文学。通过文字，作者可以带领读者进入他的思想，让读者参与他的思想轨迹，使读者能够通过中国人的眼睛了解中国，打破偏见。比如安乐哲和罗思文对《论语》进行阐释时尝试从比较哲学角度寻找出路，成功地把中国古代哲学思想传到英语世界。于丹的《论语心得》也帮助了全球传播儒学的道理。

==7. 近现代东西方文学有何交流与相互影响？==

China and the West in modern times has been the Western missionaries who came to China, the foreign students, and the overseas Chinese who emigrated. Western missionaries introduced classical Chinese literature to the West, such as James Legge who was one of the first to publish the Chinese Classics in English, whose purpose was to introduce Eastern culture, philosophical thought and customs to Western readers.

Chinese scholars, such as Zhu Shenghao, were among the first Chinese translators of Shakespeare's works, Guo Moruo of Goethe's works, and the quality and style of their translations are recognized by Shakespearean researchers at home and abroad. The mutual exchange of Eastern and Western literature in modern times has not only promoted the development of Chinese literature, but also enriched world literature. The rich variety of Western literature provides more choices for Chinese reading, not only ''Romeo and Juliet'' love stories, but also anti-utopian literature like ''Animal Farm''. Chinese literature also brings something different to the West in terms of vision and experience. Based on his international readings, Mo Yan has created his vernacular works, which give Western readers a sense of the Chinese vernacular.

The exchange of literature is rising. Currently, we have a peak in German children literature licences going to China.

Also, more Chinese literature is translated into foreign languages, also due to the sponsorship program by the government.

However, printing books with money does not replace a missing market demand. Only if the market itself asks for Chinese books, Chinese literature will increase its worldwide presence. And if that happens, sponsorship is also not needed any more and could be reduced to the much smaller budgets of translation sponsorship we see in other countries.

近代以来中西文化交流的主力是来华的西方传教士、留学生和移民海外的华侨华人。
西方传教士把中国古典文学介绍到了西方，比如理雅各出版了《中国经典》的第一卷，其目的就是为了向西方读者介绍东方的文化、哲学思想和风土人情。

还有中国的有识之士如朱生豪是中国翻译莎士比亚作品较早的人之一，郭沫若是歌德作品最早翻译家之一，其译文质量和风格卓具特色，为国内外莎士比亚研究者所公认。

近现代东西方文学相互交流，不仅促进了中国文学的发展，而且还丰富了世界文学。西方文学种类丰富，为中国人阅读提供了更多选择，不仅有《罗密欧与朱丽叶》这样的爱情故事，也有《动物农场》之类的反乌托邦文学。中国文学也会给西方带来一些不一样的视野和体验。莫言在读获得诺贝尔文学奖的全球文学作品的基础上写了乡土作品，让西方读者真切感受到中国的乡土人情。

文学的交流正在上升。目前，我们有一个德国儿童文学许可证前往中国的高峰。

此外，更多的中国文学作品被翻译成外语，这也是由于政府的赞助计划。

然而，用钱印书并不能取代缺失的市场需求。只有当市场本身需要中国书籍时，中国文学才会增加其在全世界的影响力。如果这样，赞助也就不再需要了，可以减少到我们在其他国家看到的小得多的翻译赞助的预算。

=受访者简介：=

吴漠汀(Martin Woesler)，男，生于1969年，德国著名汉学家、欧洲科学院院士、欧盟让•莫内讲席教授，德国维藤大学研究院、曾任德国慕尼黑应用语言大学中文系主任、罗马第三大学讲席教授、美国由他谷大学副教授。2019年9月受聘湖南师范大学潇湘学者特聘教授。主要研究领域为《红楼梦》、比较文学、翻译、跨文化交流、中国现当代文学。他通晓德语、汉语、英语，先后翻译鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国作家的作品。他同史华慈（Rainer Schwarz)先生共同翻译完成的《红楼梦》,是《红楼梦》首部完整德文译本。荣获2020年度中国政府友谊奖。

参考资料

https://www.sohu.com/a/442142_106055

外国翻译家：中国当代文学在西方的处境如同沙漠
2014-10-30 12:13

在昨天举行的一场“汉学与当代中国”座谈会上，面对采访的几位国外翻译家表示对中国当代文学作品在国外的翻译出版很不乐观，他们毫不留情地用“太差了”、“沙漠”、“怪怪的”等来形容中国当代文学在西方的处境，令记者感到意外。

怎么了

俄罗斯曾经三年没出版一本中国当代文学书籍

俄罗斯圣彼得堡国立大学东方系常务副主任罗季奥诺夫很形象的控诉中国当代文学在俄罗斯的“惨状”：“与政治经济的热相比，中国文学在俄罗斯不能说是冷的，但至少是凉的。”罗季奥诺夫介绍，“翻译逆差明显，达到了20倍，俄罗斯的80后和90后根本就不知道当代中国文学是什么，他们只了解西方文学。”

据他统计，1990年到2005年这15年间，中国当代文学在俄罗斯一共只出版了8本书，平均两年一本，“简直是沙漠”，2005年到2008年因为有合作项目，出版了几本书，2008年金融危机后到2010年的3年间，一本书也没有，2011年出版了1本，才卖出去1000册，2012年好一点，出版了2本，一共卖出去8300册。

加拿大西门菲莎大学教授、汉学家Jan Walls痴迷中国文化，不但给自己起了个地道的中文名字王健，还会表演数来宝。“我注意到，2013年我们的作家门罗得了诺贝尔文学奖后，中国的出版社出版了9本她的小说，而2012年莫言得了诺奖后，却没有同等的待遇，加拿大并没有因为莫言得奖就多出版他的书。”王健说，加拿大的汉学家和翻译家不少，但有个共同的“毛病”，就是重视中国古典文学，轻视中国当代文学，包括他自己，作为叶嘉莹的学生，也更喜欢翻译古诗词。

西班牙马德里自治大学东亚研究中心主任、翻译家达西安娜·菲萨克，在上世纪80年代就翻译了大量的巴金、钱钟书等名家的作品到西班牙。她也直言中国当代文学在西班牙的境况不乐观。

为什么

中国当代作品的翻译连资深汉学家都发憷

对于中国当代文学作品不被国外接受的另外一个原因，是跨文化的翻译过程让作品失去了其魅力。土耳其安卡拉大学中文系主任欧凯带着几个中文流利的博士生来中国交流，他指了指自己的学生，“土耳其目前中国文学的大部分译者都是我的学生，我不应该这样直接批评我的学生，但我必须要说，翻译得太差了，很多错误。”

欧凯的手机里面存着许多张图书的图片，每一张里都有用红色笔圈出来的字句。欧凯向《北京晚报》记者展示这些他随时翻看的翻译作品，其中有铁凝的《永远有多远》，欧凯很喜欢铁凝的文字，“可是你看，这本书的名字就翻译错了，还有王刚的作品《英格力士》，书名直接翻译成《英语》了，这怎么能一样呢。”欧凯又翻到一本莫言的作品，其中的“八路”翻译成了“第八大道”：“他们不了解中国文化，不了解创作背后的含义，如果我是普通读者，到书店里拿起这样一本书翻一下，根本不会去买。”

这种翻译的困难有时也并不只是年轻的译者中文水平有限所致，而是中西文化差异过大。菲萨克告诉记者，尽管已经有三十年的翻译经验，但是在翻译当代作品时还是发憷：“翻译当代的文学作品有些困难，大部分都是通过英文和法文的译本再翻译成西班牙文。”这样就造成了二次转述中和原文更大的误差。她还提到，中国曾经组织了一批西班牙语好的外语人才，将中国作品翻译到西班牙。“我不认为这种做法可行，因为我看了书以后，觉得语言都是怪怪的，读者看过之后可能更觉得中国是个距离遥远的文化了。”

怎么办

这事儿需要政府牵引靠个人力量肯定不行

欧凯的建议很直接，希望土耳其政府和中国政府共同为翻译作品的质量把关。“政府必须介入，之前的翻译都是很个人的事情，喜欢哪本书，跟出版社说，就开始翻译，根本无法保证翻译的质量。”欧凯认为，可以成立一个委员会，监督和审查翻译的质量，为作品严格把关，“这件事情肯定要政府去做，靠个人的力量是不行的。”

罗季奥诺夫则提出了具体的建议，希望俄罗斯的孔子学院和中国作家协会合作推出翻译项目，“不但要翻译，更要推广，不是把书出版就行了，还要大力推广，比如莫言和余华这样一批有名气的中国作家，完全可以走商业宣传的方式。”罗季奥诺夫也敏感地提出，在翻译作品时要特别注意本土读者的接受程度：“我发现很多在中国特别受欢迎的作品，俄罗斯人很不喜欢，甚至还会反感，引起对于中国人的误解，挑选什么样的文学作品很关键。”

菲萨克一直以来担心的西班牙“缺少真正懂中文的人”的人才不足问题，随着2008年西班牙大学开始招收本科汉语专业的学生有了很大改变，可以寄希望于后辈：“目前已经培养了一批年轻的汉学家，真正在搞翻译，真正因为喜欢中国文学才会做这件事。”

同样为人才担心的加拿大学者王健也说，别看加拿大面积大，但是人口还不及云南省的人口，翻译人才就更少了。“现在有一个现象，是中国移民到加拿大，在大学继续学习中国文学的学者们，有这样一批中青年学者在从事翻译工作，都是自发的。”王健说。本报记者陈梦溪返回搜狐，查看更多

Interview by Wan Shuyuan 2022

2022-04-23T16:18:26Z

Bebery: /* 2. 中国近现代文学的魅力何在？翻译近现代文学如何加深了你对中国的了解？ */

Back to [[JM]] page

Links to other interviews as background information: [[2021_Interview_with_Duan_Yuanyuan]], [[Longer_interview_version_dated_March_3_2021]], [[Interview_Univerlag_2022]].

Aim: Give guidance for the field, make some provocative but true statements. Reflect current discussions both in China and internationally. Refer to Web literature work by Chen Dingjia (CASS) and to "Intellectual History" by Chen Zhongyi.

'''汉学家吴漠汀：我为何翻译中国现当代文学?'''

近年来,随着中国作家屡在国际获奖，越来越多中国现当代作家的作品开始受到世界关注。德国汉学家吴漠汀翻译了鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国作家的众多作品。

中新社记者拟以“我为何翻译中国现当代文学?”为题，采访德国汉学家吴漠汀教授。

采访问题如下：

==1. 你不仅翻译了《红楼梦》德文版本，还先后翻译了鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国近现代作家的作品。你为何钟情于中国近现代文学？==

The main reason is, that from the perspective of world literature, Chinese literature is underrepresented in the world. Regarding the quality, the Qing Red Chamber Dreams in guanhua and Lu Xun's "The True Story of Ah Q" in early baihua were among the globally best pieces of literature of their time. In general, we can say that many works of Chinese literature of the 1920s was of a world leading high quality, also because the Chinese writers were in close exchange with the national literatures of the world.

Since 1930, when the League of Left Wing Writers was founded, Chinese authors changed from writing high quality literature for literature's sake to writing literature for political purpose, they voluntarily gave up quality and international compatibility. However, even under this environment, some excellent authors emerged like the ones I translated. So we still have a few works of excellent Chinese literature today. These works are worth to be translated and to made known to the world.

This is the more the case, since we have many more e.g. English, French, Spanish and German literature translated into Chinese than the other way round. One of the reasons why not much Chinese literature is translated into foreign languages is that China as a country ranks among the countries with the lowest popularity all around the world. A major reason for that is her corruption and autocratic system. If China can reform and open up more, also its culture will naturally become more popular all around the world.

Another reason why modern Chinese literature appeals to me is the local characteristics embedded in these works. For example, Mr. Jia Pingwa's works contain a large number of dialects, local traditions unique to his hometown, etc. His works are wonderful, but the amount of his works translated is much lower than the quality of his works deserves, because these parts are difficult to be translated into foreign languages. I think these distinctive cultures are also worth spreading, and I would be happy to translate such Chinese vernacular stories and bring them to the world.

Top Chinese literature of modern and contemporary times is extremely rich. Lu Xun has shaped the new vernacular. His whole life he was torn between the need he saw for political reform and his doubts, if literature can be effective in this respect. Among all international great writers, Lu Xun was the one who even stood above the Nobel Prize of Literature, when he declined to be listed as candidate for it. With Ah Q, Kong Yiji, The Madman's Diary, he wrote the internationally most advanced and modern literature of his time. Until today it is a desideratum to publish his Complete Works in English. I translated for example his essays on the book burning in Germany.

I also translated Yu Qiuyu's History of Calligraphy, which gives foreigners an in-depth inside into this important art and its role and position in Chinese cultural history, considering it the basis of all arts and as important as music, painting and literature.

Wang Meng has not only won the hearts of Chinese readers with his nostalgic revolution love story "Long live the Youth", but has also contributed a lot to the experimental development of the stream-of-consciousness style in literature. I have translated his short story "Hard Porridge" and his autobiographical book "China - Deciphered".

I very much enjoyed to translate Han Shaogong's works "Verblassender Mond über dem verlassenen Innenhof" (空院残月), which shows a dense atmosphere of 1930s China under Japanese occupation, and "Der Zorn des Buddha" (怒目金刚), which shows the stubborness of a rule breaker and also contains some supernatural elements.

Because of the life experience I share with Xu Zechen as student at Peking University, and therefore I felt very much at home when translating his "Ah Peking!".

Zhang Wei delivers both, on the one hand very intense descriptions of the struggle of men in nature and local sceneries with "Baummoos pflücken", "Meerwind", "Auf ins Maisfeld", "Fuchs und Wein", "Herbstzorn" und "Weintrauben im Herbstregen" and on the other hand the world of cadres between good intentions and the temptations of bribery with "Rette bitte den Künstler".

Although Han Han is better known as race driver and film regisseur, e.g. for the blockbuster "Four Seas", he is a successful and skilfull writer too, so I have translated his works "Three Gates", "Glorious Days", and "His Land". Compared to Guo Jingming, who is more celebrity than author, Han Han produces high quality literature, especially with his road novel "1988: I want to talk with the world", translated by Howard Goldblatt.

I also chose to translate Mian Mian's novel "Panda Sex" because I wanted to check, if it was really "rubbish literature" as it was once claimed by a critic. I visited her in Shanghai and discovered that her works are so authentic, because he mostly described her own life experience. The novel Panda Sex was composed with an experimental writing style: Only at the end of the novel, the reader understands that the recurring quotes in the novel are actual recordings, which Mian Mian took from philosophical talks at various parties in Shanghai.

In general, to support cultural attractiveness, the so-called "soft power" with "hard power" means, e.g. financial support, can backfire. The United States was long seen as a country where poor or criminal European immigrated to. It was a country of slavery and its racism was severe even until the 1970s. Since then, the United States have reformed and earned the trust of many other countries in the world. So without investing into soft power, it naturally became a soft superpower. People all over the world eat the unhealthy American fast food, simply because the United States has an attractiveness and people feel to be part of the "land of the free" or the "American dream" when they eat the food.

As I understand it, in 2000, the Chinese National People's Congress initially proposed a "go global" strategy. The Chinese government supports the export of Chinese culture financially especially since 2007. It also supports the translation of Chinese literature and propaganda books into foreign languages. In the beginning, the policy was not applied properly. The most funding was offered for propaganda books, and not from the perspective which works of literature and which fact books can be successful abroad. This practise has become better now. However, the sales figures of Chinese books abroad are still lowered because the partnering Chinese publishing houses make the final edit of the translations and have the final say how to design the covers. They often change the colors, take away the illustrations and eye-catching cover texts.

In this way, while many Chinese literary works have great potential for worldwide success, restrictions on how books look or are presented abroad sometimes undermine that potential. China still has a way to go in enhancing its own cultural appeal, and I hope that my translations will add to the effort to bring Chinese culture to the world.
主要是因为，从世界文学的角度来看，中国文学一直保持着良好的水平。《红楼梦》和《阿Q正传》从质量上讲是当时全球最好的文学作品中的代表作。总而言之，1920年代出现了许多在世界文学领域也称得上高质量的中国文学作品，其中缘由也是因为中国作家与世界各国的文学作品进行了密切交流。

自1930年中国左翼作家联盟成立以来，中国作家从为文学而文学变成了创作政治导向的文学，他们主动放弃了质量和国际化。然而，即使在这种环境下，也还是出现了一批优秀作家作品，比如我翻译的那些作品。所以今天仍然有一些优秀的中国文学作品。这些作品值得被翻译，让世界看见。

特别是当文学作品的引进多于译出时更是如此。中国文学作品被译介到国外的数量不多，原因之一是中国作为一个国家在全世界范围内的知名度最低。一个主要原因是中国的腐败和专制制度。如果中国能够实施改革开放政策，其文化也会自然而然在世界范围内变得更受欢迎。

中国现代文学吸引我的另一个原因是这些作品中蕴含的地方特色。例如，贾平凹先生的作品中包含了大量的方言、他家乡特有的地方传统等。他的作品很精彩，但其作品的翻译量却难以反映其作品应有的质量，因为这些部分很难被翻译成外语。我认为这些独特的文化也是值得传播的，我很愿意翻译这样的中国乡土故事，把它们带到世界上。

中国现当代的顶级文学是极其丰富的。鲁迅塑造了新的白话文。他的一生都在关注所看到的政治改革的需要和他的怀疑，即文学是否能在这方面发挥作用。在所有的国际大作家中，虽然当时鲁迅拒绝被列为诺贝尔文学奖的候选人，但其实他的作品甚至上高于诺贝尔文学奖的评奖标准的。他以《阿Q正传》《孔乙己》《狂人日记》几部作品写出了当时国际上最先进的现代文学。直到今天，用英文出版他的全集仍是一个宏愿。而我就翻译了他关于德国焚书的文章。

我还翻译了余秋雨的《书法史》，让外国人深入了解这一重要艺术及其在中国文化史上的作用和地位。书法是所有艺术的基础，与音乐、绘画和文学一样重要。
王蒙不仅以其怀旧的革命爱情故事《青春万岁》赢得了中国读者的心，而且对文学中意识流风格的实验性发展做出了很大贡献。我曾翻译过他的短篇小说《坚硬的稀粥》和他的自传书《中国-解密》。
我非常喜欢翻译韩少功的作品《空院残月》和《怒目金刚》，前者展示了一个规则破坏者的顽强精神，包含了一些超自然的元素。
因为我和徐则臣有共同的生活经历，都是北京大学的学生，所以我在翻译他的《啊，北京！》时感到非常自在。

张伟的书中阐述了两种情况，一种是如《采树鳔》《海的风》《钻玉米地》《狐狸和酒》《秋天的愤怒》以及《秋雨洗葡萄》这样的作品，情感强烈地描述了人类在自然和当地风景中的斗争，另一种则是如《请挽救艺术家》这样的作品，写出了干部的世界在善意和贿赂的诱惑之间的挣扎。

虽然韩寒更多的是以赛车手和电影评论家的身份为人所知，例如，以大片《四海》而闻名，但他也是一位成功而娴熟的作家，所以我翻译了他的作品《三道门》《光辉岁月》和《他的土地》。跟与其说是作家不如说是名人的郭敬明相比，韩寒的文学作品质量很高，特别是他的公路小说《1988：我想和这个世界谈谈》，由葛浩文翻译。

而我之所以选择翻译棉棉的小说《熊猫》，也是因为我想确认一下，它是否真的如一位评论家所说的那样是“垃圾文学”。于是我在上海拜访了她，一番了解后发现，她的作品是如此的真实，因为书中主要描述的是她自己的生活经历。小说《熊猫》使用的一种实验性的写作风格：直到小说结尾，读者才会发现小说中反复出现的引用其实是真实的录音，是棉棉在上海各种聚会上录下来的哲学谈话。

一般来说，为了支持文化的吸引力，所谓的“软实力”加上“硬实力”的手段，如财政支持，会适得其反。长期以来，美国被视为贫穷或接收难民的国家。它是一个奴隶制国家，其种族主义甚至在20世纪70年代之前都很严重。从那时起，美国已经进行了改革，并赢得了世界上许多其他国家的信任。因此，在没有对软实力进行投资的情况下，它自然成为了一个软性的超级大国。世界各地的人都在吃不健康的美国快餐，只是因为美国有一种吸引力，人们在吃这些食物时感到“自由之土”或是“美国梦”的一部分。

据我所知，在2000年，中国全国人民代表大会最初提出了中国文化“走出去”的战略。中国政府在财政上支持中国文化的出口，特别是2007年以来。中国还支持将中国文学和宣传书籍翻译成外国语言。一开始，这项政策并没有得到适当的应用。大部分资金是提供给宣传书籍的，而没有从传播效果的角度来考虑。现在这种做法已经有所改善。然而，中国图书在国外的销售额仍然很低，因为合作的中国出版社对译本进行了最后的编辑，并对如何设计封面有最终决定权。他们经常改变颜色，去掉插图和醒目的封面文字。

这样一来，虽然许多中国文学作品具有被成功译介的巨大潜力，但对书籍外观或在国外展示的限制有时会影响译介进程。中国在提高自己的文化吸引力方面还有一段路要走，我希望我的翻译能够为中国文化走向世界的努力添砖加瓦。

==2. 中国近现代文学的魅力何在？翻译近现代文学如何加深了你对中国的了解？==

Modern and contemporary literature is one of the best ways to understand a country and a culture. Authors have the ability to drag readers into their thoughts, to let them participate in their line of thoughts and let them look at China through Chinese eyes.

In modern Chinese literature one can see the sparks of ancient literature colliding with foreign literature. Lu Xun, for example, is not only a famous Chinese writer, thinker and revolutionary; in the process of translating Lu Xun's works, take ''Call to the Arms'' (Nahan) as an example, this work truly depicts the social life from the Xinhai Revolution to the May Fourth period, revealing the deep-seated contradictions, profoundly analyzing and attacking the old Chinese system and stereotypes, which provides readers with a new perspective to This provides readers with a new perspective to better understand the culture and characteristics of modern China. On the other hand, with the passage of time, new generations of authors have emerged in the literary world, such as the "post-80s" literature, describing the authors born after 1980. Especially after 2000, the "post-80s" writing, mainly youth literature, has achieved a brilliant success in the literary market.

Han Han is one of the more famous post-80s literary writers. In translating Han Han's "Triple Door", I learned that Han Han is full of wisdom, he uses his own unique narrative to express his understanding of the world, and when he finds himself in tension with the world, he is able to give a clever way to solve it. Han Han uses a humoristic critical surrealism to describe phenomena of contemporary Chinese society. Difficult for the translator is, that Han Han often uses traditional proverbs and then interpretes them not by their allegoric, but by their true meaning and creates a twist in the story line. Since the proverbs have different meanings in the target culture, it takes a long time to find solutions for these frequent turning points in Han Han's stories.

The works of Han Han and Lu Xun both reflect to a certain extent their different understanding of the times, and they have their own different views on different times, and when they reflect their thoughts on the times in their books, this in itself is a way to show their charm. The views of the authors of different eras have the characteristics of the people of different eras, and in understanding their thoughts and works is also the way one can understand China step by step.

中国近现代文学是理解中国及其中国文化本身最好的方式。作家能够让读者明白他们的想法，并且让读者们参与到他们的想法中来，让他们以中国的视野来观看中国。中国近现代文学中能够看到古代文学与外国文学碰撞产生的火花。比如鲁迅，他不仅是中国著名的文学家、思想家、革命家；在对鲁迅的作品进行翻译的过程中，拿《呐喊》为例，这部作品真实描绘了从辛亥革命到五四时期的社会生活，揭示了种种深层次矛盾，对中国旧有制度以及陈腐的传统观念进行了深刻的剖析与抨击，这给读者提供了一个新的角度来更好的了解中国近现代的文化与时代特点。另一方面，随着时间的流逝，一些新兴文学登上了文学界，比如“80后”文学。“80后”写作是新世纪之初中国最重要的文化现象。2000年以后，以青春文学为主体的“80后”写作在文学市场取得了辉煌的胜利。而韩寒则是“80后”文学写作中较有名气的一位。在对韩寒《三重门》进行翻译时，我了解到韩寒充满了智慧，他用自己独特的叙述方式将他对世界的理解表达出来，另外，当他发现自己与世界的紧张关系时，他能够给予一种巧妙的方法进行解决。韩寒与鲁迅的作品都在一定程度上能够反应他们对于时代不同的理解，对于不同的时代，他们有着自己不同的看法，而当他们将自己对时代的思考在书中体现出来时，这本身就是一种魅力展现的方式。不同时代作者的看法都具备了不同时代人的特性，在了解他们的思想和作品的过程中，也可以一步步了解中国。

==3. 很多文学作品在跨文化的翻译过程中，会让作品失去原本的魅力。那么，你在翻译中国近现代文学作品时，是如何克服翻译瓶颈的？和翻译中国古典文学有何不同之处？==

It is not true, that works of literature lose their original attraction when translated into a different language. That is a prejudice. Almost all literature we read today is translated literature. If you do not translate, you only have national literatures read by local people. If you want to win the nobel prize of literature, you need to be translated at least into English, and best also into Swedish.

Every original has its specific attraction. It can be low or high. If it may be of high attraction to foreign readers - which is not always the same as to be attractive to local readers - then it is worth to be translated. When you translate, you can either make it more attractive or less attractive. This depends on a lot of factors. One is, that you need to understand and appreciate the original fully. Many Chinese readers also cannot understand and appreciate a work fully. So the ideal translator is a foreigner, who has lived in China for several years. There are almost only native speakers of the target language, who produce successful translations in the literary field. The same is true for foreign literature: If it wants to be successful in the Chinese literary market, it needs to be translated by a Chinese translator. An even more ideal translator would be an author by her or himself. So the best poetry translation is done by poets who translated into their own language.

In the education process of translators, they are told that they should master the foreign language as well as their own language. But this is not possible except for people who grew up truly bilingual. Therefore, one should translate into one's own language in order to achieve the best success.

我认为这是一种偏见，实际上文学作品在跨文化的翻译过程中，并不会失去其原本的魅力。今天我们阅读的文学作品几乎全部都是文学译作。如果我们不把文学作品翻译成其他文字，那么我们国家的文学作品只会拥有本土读者；如果我们想要让作品走出去，最好获取诺贝尔文学奖，那就至少得把文学作品翻译成英文，当然最好还要译成瑞典语。
每一部文学作品都拥有或多或少的独特魅力。倘若一部文学作品在外国读者看来是极具魅力的，而本国读者却意见相左，我们把它译成外国文字则是一件很有意义的事情。但是我们在翻译文学作品的时候切忌改变其原本的魅力，既不能增加一分，也不能减少一分。要做到这一点需要考虑许多因素，一个就是我们必须对该文学作品有充分的理解和鉴赏。倘若本土读者对某些国内作品也无法充分地理解和鉴赏，那么翻译该作品的最佳译者可以是那些旅居该国多年的外国译者。通常成功的文学作品翻译大多是由译作语言为母语的译者来完成的，外国文学作品的翻译也同样如此。如果一部外国文学作品想要在中国文学市场取得成功，有必要请一位中国译者来翻译该作品。如果这位译者本人还是一位作者，那是最理想的情况了。这就不难理解为什么最好的诗歌翻译都是由那些译语为母语的诗人完成的。
在译者学习翻译的过程中，往往要求他们必须熟练掌握一门外语，其熟练程度等同于其母语。这一点除了那些从小在双语环境里成长的并列双语者可能实现，对于其他人几乎是不切实际的。因此，译者往往是将外国作品翻译成自己的母语时才能取得更大的成就。

==4. 过去很长一段时期，西方对中国古典文学研究较多，而对现当代文学的翻译和研究较少。曾有外国翻译家直言：“中国当代文学在西方的处境如同沙漠。”这一现象背后的原因是什么？==

Of course the world is a desert, when it comes to Chinese literature. And this is unfair, because there are actually works of literature with a high quality in China.

In Germany, non-German literature accounts for 12,5% of literature, but Chinese literature only for 0,3% of literature. However, before I engaged in translation, we had 11 Chinese literary books per year being translated into German. With my engagement, this figure has roughly doubled. How did I achieve this? I gathered a group of young sinologists in Germany, who all joined into a translators workshop. In this workshop, we now translate about 10 books from Chinese into German, most of it works of literature. With this output, we have doubled the number of books translated from Chinese into German since more than a decade now.

The reason behind the desert phenomenon is, that Chinese literature is only as popular as the country is seen by the international community. The worldwide market for Russian literature broke down since end of February 2022, and at the same time the worldwide market for Ukrainian literature has skyrocketed. Since there was no change in quality, we can see from that that there are foreign perceptions and the image of a country, which plays into it. The easiest way for Chinese literature to become celebrated around the world would be to become a country, which is even more clean and even more free than today.

因此我给自己定了一个目标：将更多的中国文学作品翻译成我的母语——德语。我在德国召集了一些年轻的汉学家加入到一个翻译工作室，一起从事翻译工作。我们目前已经完成了10本中文作品的德语翻译，其中大部分是文学作品。因为我们的努力使中国书籍德译数量同十年前比翻了一番。
造成文学“沙漠化现象”的原因则是：文学作品的受欢迎程度与该国在世界的受欢迎程度相关。从2022年2月底开始，俄罗斯文学的全球市场已经崩溃，而与此同时我们发现乌克兰文学的全球市场却迅猛增长。我们可以看到两国文学作品的质量并没有发生任何变化，是外国对于两国的看法以及国家自身的形象左右了其文学作品的受欢迎度。让中国文学作品誉满全球的最简单的办法就是中国政府进一步加强环境保护和人权保障工作。
其次因为各个国家的意识形态不同，难免会使中国当代文学在国外出现接受难或者认知偏差的情况。我想指出的是无论是哪国的文学作品，如果遭遇过度意识形态化、过度政治化的解读、阐释与译介，其文学性与诗学价值很可能会大打折扣甚至完全被遮蔽。
文化心态与接受心态因素：文化输入和文化输出国地位的对比会影响目标文化的输入意愿从而左右文化输出的成效。文化接受的不均衡性必然导致文化接受语境以及读者接受心态的不均衡现象，而文化层面的“傲慢”与“偏见”会影响翻译作品和翻译策略的选择，进一步影响到作品的传播。因而中国文学作品倘若需要走出去，首先参加这个交流的人必须充分准确地认识自己的文化，同时也充分了解接收国的文化。
翻译副文本因素：副文本即解读文本，是文本的重要构建形态，译作前言是构成副文本的重要组成部分。译者通过前言介绍作品的创作者、评价其作品、指导读者了解作品艺术特色及解读作品。中国出版商往往会将我译作的前言部分略去，这样会影响外国读者对该作品的了解，使中国文学作品在海外传播出现接受障碍。
五是对国外目标读者群体的研究不够深入会影响其对于中国当代文学作品的认知和接受程度。

==5. 近年来，中国近现代文学在西方“遇冷”的现象有所改变吗？目前的接受程度如何？哪些类型的中国近现代文学更容易吸引欧洲读者？==

There is the underlying problem of the popularity of China as a country in general in the eyes of people in America, Europe, and Africa. Especially in the United States we have seen a drop in popularity of China from 42% pro and 38% contra in 2008 to 22% pro and 73% contra in 2020 according to the Pew Research Center. Of course this drop in popularity is partly home made. So there are concrete measures to enhance the image of China in the world, e.g. reduction of corruption, enhancement of the rule of law, reliability, trust, power control, self-criticism regarding own problems and mistakes and the taking over of as much responsibility for peace and stability in the world as much China represents one fourth of the world population and is among the two largest economies in the world.

Literature itself can contribute its share by delivering high quality literature. Although most of Chinese literature is below world literature quality since the 1930s, there are still a few works worth translating. Some contemporary writers, such as Mo Yan, Liu Cixin, Yan Lianke, Su Tong, and Yu Hua, have already gained some influence among Western readers, but many more writers are still obscure. On the whole, Chinese literature has not yet developed a stable profile with its own characteristics among Western readers.

Chinese authors could also enhance the quality of their literature by learning several languages and reading the literature of other countries in their original languages. In 1920's China, Chinese writers naturally spoke different languages and also participated in the cultural exchange and translated literature. Through this intense cultural exchange, also Lu Xun's short story "The True Story of Ah Q" was translated into French and supported by the French author Romand Rollain.

Among the literary categories, science fiction, children's literature and online literature are more popular among Western readers, including European readers, while works with strong political content are less popular. According to a study by Ariadne Consulting, the scale of overseas users of Chinese online literature has reached more than 80 million in 2020, which has a very strong appeal to Western readers.

在美国、欧洲和非洲，中国作为一个国家本身的受欢迎度不高，这也影响了中国近现代文学在全球的传播。尤其是在美国，根据皮尤研究中心(Pew Research Center)的数据，可以看到中国的受欢迎程度从2008年的42%欢迎和38%不欢迎下降到2020年的22%欢迎和73%不欢迎。这使中国近现代文学在西方的传播仍不容乐观。

中国国家在西方受欢迎程度的下降，除国际原因之外也有一部分国内原因。对此，也有一些具体的措施，例如持续减少腐败、加强法治、可信度和自我批评，提升对权力机制的监管，以及继续为世界和平稳定作出应有的贡献。

文坛自身也可以多多产出高质量文学作品。自20世纪30年代以来，中国文学有时受政治因素影响，但高质量作品仍然较为丰富。像莫言、刘慈欣、阎连科、苏童、余华等一些当代作家已经在西方读者中具有一定的影响力，但更多的作家则依旧面目模糊。从整体上来说，中国文学尚未在西方读者中形成具有自身特色的稳定面貌。中国作家可以多阅读其他国家的文学作品，达到取长补短、兼收并蓄的效果。例如在20世纪20年代的中国，中国作家如鲁迅就积极参与文化交流和翻译。通过这种激烈的文化交流，鲁迅的短篇小说《阿Q正传》被翻译成法文，并得到了法国作家罗曼•罗兰的支持。

在文学类别中，科幻小说、儿童文学以及网络文学是西方读者包括欧洲读者较为欢迎的，而政治性强的作品则不太受欢迎。据艾瑞咨询研究显示，2020年中国网络文学海外用户规模已达到八千万以上，对西方读者有非常强的吸引力。

==6. 你扎实的语言基本功和翻译水平使你的作品在欧美汉学界引起了广泛关注。你认为翻译中国近现代文学能为中西文化交流做出怎样的贡献？==

If we want to better the situation of cultural exchange and mutual understanding, we may reform the country to make it more popular. We also need to bring people together. To get to know someone from the other country often changes the attitude towards the country. This can start with school partnerships and end with city partnerships. Of course there also needs to be found a long term solution between China's self-chosen isolation due to the Zero-Covid strategy and the open world around China.

We can also catch the attention of foreign readers with other cultural phenomena, which are received favorably. For example, the blockbuster movies of the 5th generation Chinese film directors has extremely pushed the reception of Chinese works of literature. Red Sorghum, Ju Dou, Life etc. are all works of literature adapted to films.

Another way is to introduce Chinese food culture with films like "The Wedding Banquet" or "Eat, drink, man, women" or Chinese martial arts with "Crouching Tiger, hidden dragon".

Moreover, the best way to understand a people a country a culture is by reading its modern literature. Through the text, the author can lead the reader into his mind and engage the reader in the trajectory of his thoughts, so that the reader can understand China through the eyes of the Chinese and break down prejudices. For example, An Lezhe and Luo Siwen's attempt to find a way out from a comparative philosophical perspective in their interpretation of the ''Analects'' successfully transmits ancient Chinese philosophical thought to the English-speaking world. Also Yu Dan's ''Confucius from the Heart'' has helped to export Confucian ideas internationally.

如果我们想要改善文化交流和相互理解的状况，除了上面罗列的方法之外，我们还需要让人们团结起来。通常来说，当人们真正了解了来自一个国家的人，他们常常会改变对这个国家的态度。因此我们可以多多与其他国家内部建立学校伙伴关系和城市伙伴关系等。当然，由于中国现在采取“清零”战略，选择自我隔离，而中国周边世界已经开放，我们需要找到一个行之有效的解决方案。

我们也可以用其他文化方式来吸引外国读者的注意，这个方法很受欢迎。例如，中国第五代电影导演拍摄的大片极大地推动了西方对中国文学作品的接受，《红高粱》、《菊豆》、《人生》等都是改编成电影的文学作品。

我们还通过电影《婚宴》、《饮食男女》等来介绍中国的饮食文化，或者通过电影《卧虎藏龙》来介绍中国的武术。

翻译中国近现代文学能够丰富世界文学，中国近现代文学中有许多优秀作品。这些作品值得被世界人民所看到。

此外，了解一个民族一个国家一种文化的最好方式就是通过阅读它的近现代文学。通过文字，作者可以带领读者进入他的思想，让读者参与他的思想轨迹，使读者能够通过中国人的眼睛了解中国，打破偏见。比如安乐哲和罗思文对《论语》进行阐释时尝试从比较哲学角度寻找出路，成功地把中国古代哲学思想传到英语世界。于丹的《论语心得》也帮助了全球传播儒学的道理。

==7. 近现代东西方文学有何交流与相互影响？==

China and the West in modern times has been the Western missionaries who came to China, the foreign students, and the overseas Chinese who emigrated. Western missionaries introduced classical Chinese literature to the West, such as James Legge who was one of the first to publish the Chinese Classics in English, whose purpose was to introduce Eastern culture, philosophical thought and customs to Western readers.

Chinese scholars, such as Zhu Shenghao, were among the first Chinese translators of Shakespeare's works, Guo Moruo of Goethe's works, and the quality and style of their translations are recognized by Shakespearean researchers at home and abroad. The mutual exchange of Eastern and Western literature in modern times has not only promoted the development of Chinese literature, but also enriched world literature. The rich variety of Western literature provides more choices for Chinese reading, not only ''Romeo and Juliet'' love stories, but also anti-utopian literature like ''Animal Farm''. Chinese literature also brings something different to the West in terms of vision and experience. Based on his international readings, Mo Yan has created his vernacular works, which give Western readers a sense of the Chinese vernacular.

The exchange of literature is rising. Currently, we have a peak in German children literature licences going to China.

Also, more Chinese literature is translated into foreign languages, also due to the sponsorship program by the government.

However, printing books with money does not replace a missing market demand. Only if the market itself asks for Chinese books, Chinese literature will increase its worldwide presence. And if that happens, sponsorship is also not needed any more and could be reduced to the much smaller budgets of translation sponsorship we see in other countries.

近代以来中西文化交流的主力是来华的西方传教士、留学生和移民海外的华侨华人。
西方传教士把中国古典文学介绍到了西方，比如理雅各出版了《中国经典》的第一卷，其目的就是为了向西方读者介绍东方的文化、哲学思想和风土人情。

还有中国的有识之士如朱生豪是中国翻译莎士比亚作品较早的人之一，郭沫若是歌德作品最早翻译家之一，其译文质量和风格卓具特色，为国内外莎士比亚研究者所公认。

近现代东西方文学相互交流，不仅促进了中国文学的发展，而且还丰富了世界文学。西方文学种类丰富，为中国人阅读提供了更多选择，不仅有《罗密欧与朱丽叶》这样的爱情故事，也有《动物农场》之类的反乌托邦文学。中国文学也会给西方带来一些不一样的视野和体验。莫言在读获得诺贝尔文学奖的全球文学作品的基础上写了乡土作品，让西方读者真切感受到中国的乡土人情。

文学的交流正在上升。目前，我们有一个德国儿童文学许可证前往中国的高峰。

此外，更多的中国文学作品被翻译成外语，这也是由于政府的赞助计划。

然而，用钱印书并不能取代缺失的市场需求。只有当市场本身需要中国书籍时，中国文学才会增加其在全世界的影响力。如果这样，赞助也就不再需要了，可以减少到我们在其他国家看到的小得多的翻译赞助的预算。

=受访者简介：=

吴漠汀(Martin Woesler)，男，生于1969年，德国著名汉学家、欧洲科学院院士、欧盟让•莫内讲席教授，德国维藤大学研究院、曾任德国慕尼黑应用语言大学中文系主任、罗马第三大学讲席教授、美国由他谷大学副教授。2019年9月受聘湖南师范大学潇湘学者特聘教授。主要研究领域为《红楼梦》、比较文学、翻译、跨文化交流、中国现当代文学。他通晓德语、汉语、英语，先后翻译鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国作家的作品。他同史华慈（Rainer Schwarz)先生共同翻译完成的《红楼梦》,是《红楼梦》首部完整德文译本。荣获2020年度中国政府友谊奖。

参考资料

https://www.sohu.com/a/442142_106055

外国翻译家：中国当代文学在西方的处境如同沙漠
2014-10-30 12:13

在昨天举行的一场“汉学与当代中国”座谈会上，面对采访的几位国外翻译家表示对中国当代文学作品在国外的翻译出版很不乐观，他们毫不留情地用“太差了”、“沙漠”、“怪怪的”等来形容中国当代文学在西方的处境，令记者感到意外。

怎么了

俄罗斯曾经三年没出版一本中国当代文学书籍

俄罗斯圣彼得堡国立大学东方系常务副主任罗季奥诺夫很形象的控诉中国当代文学在俄罗斯的“惨状”：“与政治经济的热相比，中国文学在俄罗斯不能说是冷的，但至少是凉的。”罗季奥诺夫介绍，“翻译逆差明显，达到了20倍，俄罗斯的80后和90后根本就不知道当代中国文学是什么，他们只了解西方文学。”

据他统计，1990年到2005年这15年间，中国当代文学在俄罗斯一共只出版了8本书，平均两年一本，“简直是沙漠”，2005年到2008年因为有合作项目，出版了几本书，2008年金融危机后到2010年的3年间，一本书也没有，2011年出版了1本，才卖出去1000册，2012年好一点，出版了2本，一共卖出去8300册。

加拿大西门菲莎大学教授、汉学家Jan Walls痴迷中国文化，不但给自己起了个地道的中文名字王健，还会表演数来宝。“我注意到，2013年我们的作家门罗得了诺贝尔文学奖后，中国的出版社出版了9本她的小说，而2012年莫言得了诺奖后，却没有同等的待遇，加拿大并没有因为莫言得奖就多出版他的书。”王健说，加拿大的汉学家和翻译家不少，但有个共同的“毛病”，就是重视中国古典文学，轻视中国当代文学，包括他自己，作为叶嘉莹的学生，也更喜欢翻译古诗词。

西班牙马德里自治大学东亚研究中心主任、翻译家达西安娜·菲萨克，在上世纪80年代就翻译了大量的巴金、钱钟书等名家的作品到西班牙。她也直言中国当代文学在西班牙的境况不乐观。

为什么

中国当代作品的翻译连资深汉学家都发憷

对于中国当代文学作品不被国外接受的另外一个原因，是跨文化的翻译过程让作品失去了其魅力。土耳其安卡拉大学中文系主任欧凯带着几个中文流利的博士生来中国交流，他指了指自己的学生，“土耳其目前中国文学的大部分译者都是我的学生，我不应该这样直接批评我的学生，但我必须要说，翻译得太差了，很多错误。”

欧凯的手机里面存着许多张图书的图片，每一张里都有用红色笔圈出来的字句。欧凯向《北京晚报》记者展示这些他随时翻看的翻译作品，其中有铁凝的《永远有多远》，欧凯很喜欢铁凝的文字，“可是你看，这本书的名字就翻译错了，还有王刚的作品《英格力士》，书名直接翻译成《英语》了，这怎么能一样呢。”欧凯又翻到一本莫言的作品，其中的“八路”翻译成了“第八大道”：“他们不了解中国文化，不了解创作背后的含义，如果我是普通读者，到书店里拿起这样一本书翻一下，根本不会去买。”

这种翻译的困难有时也并不只是年轻的译者中文水平有限所致，而是中西文化差异过大。菲萨克告诉记者，尽管已经有三十年的翻译经验，但是在翻译当代作品时还是发憷：“翻译当代的文学作品有些困难，大部分都是通过英文和法文的译本再翻译成西班牙文。”这样就造成了二次转述中和原文更大的误差。她还提到，中国曾经组织了一批西班牙语好的外语人才，将中国作品翻译到西班牙。“我不认为这种做法可行，因为我看了书以后，觉得语言都是怪怪的，读者看过之后可能更觉得中国是个距离遥远的文化了。”

怎么办

这事儿需要政府牵引靠个人力量肯定不行

欧凯的建议很直接，希望土耳其政府和中国政府共同为翻译作品的质量把关。“政府必须介入，之前的翻译都是很个人的事情，喜欢哪本书，跟出版社说，就开始翻译，根本无法保证翻译的质量。”欧凯认为，可以成立一个委员会，监督和审查翻译的质量，为作品严格把关，“这件事情肯定要政府去做，靠个人的力量是不行的。”

罗季奥诺夫则提出了具体的建议，希望俄罗斯的孔子学院和中国作家协会合作推出翻译项目，“不但要翻译，更要推广，不是把书出版就行了，还要大力推广，比如莫言和余华这样一批有名气的中国作家，完全可以走商业宣传的方式。”罗季奥诺夫也敏感地提出，在翻译作品时要特别注意本土读者的接受程度：“我发现很多在中国特别受欢迎的作品，俄罗斯人很不喜欢，甚至还会反感，引起对于中国人的误解，挑选什么样的文学作品很关键。”

菲萨克一直以来担心的西班牙“缺少真正懂中文的人”的人才不足问题，随着2008年西班牙大学开始招收本科汉语专业的学生有了很大改变，可以寄希望于后辈：“目前已经培养了一批年轻的汉学家，真正在搞翻译，真正因为喜欢中国文学才会做这件事。”

同样为人才担心的加拿大学者王健也说，别看加拿大面积大，但是人口还不及云南省的人口，翻译人才就更少了。“现在有一个现象，是中国移民到加拿大，在大学继续学习中国文学的学者们，有这样一批中青年学者在从事翻译工作，都是自发的。”王健说。本报记者陈梦溪返回搜狐，查看更多

Interview by Wan Shuyuan 2022

2022-04-23T16:13:11Z

Bebery: /* 1. 你不仅翻译了《红楼梦》德文版本，还先后翻译了鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等...

Back to [[JM]] page

Links to other interviews as background information: [[2021_Interview_with_Duan_Yuanyuan]], [[Longer_interview_version_dated_March_3_2021]], [[Interview_Univerlag_2022]].

Aim: Give guidance for the field, make some provocative but true statements. Reflect current discussions both in China and internationally. Refer to Web literature work by Chen Dingjia (CASS) and to "Intellectual History" by Chen Zhongyi.

'''汉学家吴漠汀：我为何翻译中国现当代文学?'''

近年来,随着中国作家屡在国际获奖，越来越多中国现当代作家的作品开始受到世界关注。德国汉学家吴漠汀翻译了鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国作家的众多作品。

中新社记者拟以“我为何翻译中国现当代文学?”为题，采访德国汉学家吴漠汀教授。

采访问题如下：

==1. 你不仅翻译了《红楼梦》德文版本，还先后翻译了鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国近现代作家的作品。你为何钟情于中国近现代文学？==

The main reason is, that from the perspective of world literature, Chinese literature is underrepresented in the world. Regarding the quality, the Qing Red Chamber Dreams in guanhua and Lu Xun's "The True Story of Ah Q" in early baihua were among the globally best pieces of literature of their time. In general, we can say that many works of Chinese literature of the 1920s was of a world leading high quality, also because the Chinese writers were in close exchange with the national literatures of the world.

Since 1930, when the League of Left Wing Writers was founded, Chinese authors changed from writing high quality literature for literature's sake to writing literature for political purpose, they voluntarily gave up quality and international compatibility. However, even under this environment, some excellent authors emerged like the ones I translated. So we still have a few works of excellent Chinese literature today. These works are worth to be translated and to made known to the world.

This is the more the case, since we have many more e.g. English, French, Spanish and German literature translated into Chinese than the other way round. One of the reasons why not much Chinese literature is translated into foreign languages is that China as a country ranks among the countries with the lowest popularity all around the world. A major reason for that is her corruption and autocratic system. If China can reform and open up more, also its culture will naturally become more popular all around the world.

Another reason why modern Chinese literature appeals to me is the local characteristics embedded in these works. For example, Mr. Jia Pingwa's works contain a large number of dialects, local traditions unique to his hometown, etc. His works are wonderful, but the amount of his works translated is much lower than the quality of his works deserves, because these parts are difficult to be translated into foreign languages. I think these distinctive cultures are also worth spreading, and I would be happy to translate such Chinese vernacular stories and bring them to the world.

Top Chinese literature of modern and contemporary times is extremely rich. Lu Xun has shaped the new vernacular. His whole life he was torn between the need he saw for political reform and his doubts, if literature can be effective in this respect. Among all international great writers, Lu Xun was the one who even stood above the Nobel Prize of Literature, when he declined to be listed as candidate for it. With Ah Q, Kong Yiji, The Madman's Diary, he wrote the internationally most advanced and modern literature of his time. Until today it is a desideratum to publish his Complete Works in English. I translated for example his essays on the book burning in Germany.

I also translated Yu Qiuyu's History of Calligraphy, which gives foreigners an in-depth inside into this important art and its role and position in Chinese cultural history, considering it the basis of all arts and as important as music, painting and literature.

Wang Meng has not only won the hearts of Chinese readers with his nostalgic revolution love story "Long live the Youth", but has also contributed a lot to the experimental development of the stream-of-consciousness style in literature. I have translated his short story "Hard Porridge" and his autobiographical book "China - Deciphered".

I very much enjoyed to translate Han Shaogong's works "Verblassender Mond über dem verlassenen Innenhof" (空院残月), which shows a dense atmosphere of 1930s China under Japanese occupation, and "Der Zorn des Buddha" (怒目金刚), which shows the stubborness of a rule breaker and also contains some supernatural elements.

Because of the life experience I share with Xu Zechen as student at Peking University, and therefore I felt very much at home when translating his "Ah Peking!".

Zhang Wei delivers both, on the one hand very intense descriptions of the struggle of men in nature and local sceneries with "Baummoos pflücken", "Meerwind", "Auf ins Maisfeld", "Fuchs und Wein", "Herbstzorn" und "Weintrauben im Herbstregen" and on the other hand the world of cadres between good intentions and the temptations of bribery with "Rette bitte den Künstler".

Although Han Han is better known as race driver and film regisseur, e.g. for the blockbuster "Four Seas", he is a successful and skilfull writer too, so I have translated his works "Three Gates", "Glorious Days", and "His Land". Compared to Guo Jingming, who is more celebrity than author, Han Han produces high quality literature, especially with his road novel "1988: I want to talk with the world", translated by Howard Goldblatt.

I also chose to translate Mian Mian's novel "Panda Sex" because I wanted to check, if it was really "rubbish literature" as it was once claimed by a critic. I visited her in Shanghai and discovered that her works are so authentic, because he mostly described her own life experience. The novel Panda Sex was composed with an experimental writing style: Only at the end of the novel, the reader understands that the recurring quotes in the novel are actual recordings, which Mian Mian took from philosophical talks at various parties in Shanghai.

In general, to support cultural attractiveness, the so-called "soft power" with "hard power" means, e.g. financial support, can backfire. The United States was long seen as a country where poor or criminal European immigrated to. It was a country of slavery and its racism was severe even until the 1970s. Since then, the United States have reformed and earned the trust of many other countries in the world. So without investing into soft power, it naturally became a soft superpower. People all over the world eat the unhealthy American fast food, simply because the United States has an attractiveness and people feel to be part of the "land of the free" or the "American dream" when they eat the food.

As I understand it, in 2000, the Chinese National People's Congress initially proposed a "go global" strategy. The Chinese government supports the export of Chinese culture financially especially since 2007. It also supports the translation of Chinese literature and propaganda books into foreign languages. In the beginning, the policy was not applied properly. The most funding was offered for propaganda books, and not from the perspective which works of literature and which fact books can be successful abroad. This practise has become better now. However, the sales figures of Chinese books abroad are still lowered because the partnering Chinese publishing houses make the final edit of the translations and have the final say how to design the covers. They often change the colors, take away the illustrations and eye-catching cover texts.

In this way, while many Chinese literary works have great potential for worldwide success, restrictions on how books look or are presented abroad sometimes undermine that potential. China still has a way to go in enhancing its own cultural appeal, and I hope that my translations will add to the effort to bring Chinese culture to the world.
主要是因为，从世界文学的角度来看，中国文学一直保持着良好的水平。《红楼梦》和《阿Q正传》从质量上讲是当时全球最好的文学作品中的代表作。总而言之，1920年代出现了许多在世界文学领域也称得上高质量的中国文学作品，其中缘由也是因为中国作家与世界各国的文学作品进行了密切交流。

自1930年中国左翼作家联盟成立以来，中国作家从为文学而文学变成了创作政治导向的文学，他们主动放弃了质量和国际化。然而，即使在这种环境下，也还是出现了一批优秀作家作品，比如我翻译的那些作品。所以今天仍然有一些优秀的中国文学作品。这些作品值得被翻译，让世界看见。

特别是当文学作品的引进多于译出时更是如此。中国文学作品被译介到国外的数量不多，原因之一是中国作为一个国家在全世界范围内的知名度最低。一个主要原因是中国的腐败和专制制度。如果中国能够实施改革开放政策，其文化也会自然而然在世界范围内变得更受欢迎。

中国现代文学吸引我的另一个原因是这些作品中蕴含的地方特色。例如，贾平凹先生的作品中包含了大量的方言、他家乡特有的地方传统等。他的作品很精彩，但其作品的翻译量却难以反映其作品应有的质量，因为这些部分很难被翻译成外语。我认为这些独特的文化也是值得传播的，我很愿意翻译这样的中国乡土故事，把它们带到世界上。

中国现当代的顶级文学是极其丰富的。鲁迅塑造了新的白话文。他的一生都在关注所看到的政治改革的需要和他的怀疑，即文学是否能在这方面发挥作用。在所有的国际大作家中，虽然当时鲁迅拒绝被列为诺贝尔文学奖的候选人，但其实他的作品甚至上高于诺贝尔文学奖的评奖标准的。他以《阿Q正传》《孔乙己》《狂人日记》几部作品写出了当时国际上最先进的现代文学。直到今天，用英文出版他的全集仍是一个宏愿。而我就翻译了他关于德国焚书的文章。

我还翻译了余秋雨的《书法史》，让外国人深入了解这一重要艺术及其在中国文化史上的作用和地位。书法是所有艺术的基础，与音乐、绘画和文学一样重要。
王蒙不仅以其怀旧的革命爱情故事《青春万岁》赢得了中国读者的心，而且对文学中意识流风格的实验性发展做出了很大贡献。我曾翻译过他的短篇小说《坚硬的稀粥》和他的自传书《中国-解密》。
我非常喜欢翻译韩少功的作品《空院残月》和《怒目金刚》，前者展示了一个规则破坏者的顽强精神，包含了一些超自然的元素。
因为我和徐则臣有共同的生活经历，都是北京大学的学生，所以我在翻译他的《啊，北京！》时感到非常自在。

张伟的书中阐述了两种情况，一种是如《采树鳔》《海的风》《钻玉米地》《狐狸和酒》《秋天的愤怒》以及《秋雨洗葡萄》这样的作品，情感强烈地描述了人类在自然和当地风景中的斗争，另一种则是如《请挽救艺术家》这样的作品，写出了干部的世界在善意和贿赂的诱惑之间的挣扎。

虽然韩寒更多的是以赛车手和电影评论家的身份为人所知，例如，以大片《四海》而闻名，但他也是一位成功而娴熟的作家，所以我翻译了他的作品《三道门》《光辉岁月》和《他的土地》。跟与其说是作家不如说是名人的郭敬明相比，韩寒的文学作品质量很高，特别是他的公路小说《1988：我想和这个世界谈谈》，由葛浩文翻译。

而我之所以选择翻译棉棉的小说《熊猫》，也是因为我想确认一下，它是否真的如一位评论家所说的那样是“垃圾文学”。于是我在上海拜访了她，一番了解后发现，她的作品是如此的真实，因为书中主要描述的是她自己的生活经历。小说《熊猫》使用的一种实验性的写作风格：直到小说结尾，读者才会发现小说中反复出现的引用其实是真实的录音，是棉棉在上海各种聚会上录下来的哲学谈话。

一般来说，为了支持文化的吸引力，所谓的“软实力”加上“硬实力”的手段，如财政支持，会适得其反。长期以来，美国被视为贫穷或接收难民的国家。它是一个奴隶制国家，其种族主义甚至在20世纪70年代之前都很严重。从那时起，美国已经进行了改革，并赢得了世界上许多其他国家的信任。因此，在没有对软实力进行投资的情况下，它自然成为了一个软性的超级大国。世界各地的人都在吃不健康的美国快餐，只是因为美国有一种吸引力，人们在吃这些食物时感到“自由之土”或是“美国梦”的一部分。

据我所知，在2000年，中国全国人民代表大会最初提出了中国文化“走出去”的战略。中国政府在财政上支持中国文化的出口，特别是2007年以来。中国还支持将中国文学和宣传书籍翻译成外国语言。一开始，这项政策并没有得到适当的应用。大部分资金是提供给宣传书籍的，而没有从传播效果的角度来考虑。现在这种做法已经有所改善。然而，中国图书在国外的销售额仍然很低，因为合作的中国出版社对译本进行了最后的编辑，并对如何设计封面有最终决定权。他们经常改变颜色，去掉插图和醒目的封面文字。

这样一来，虽然许多中国文学作品具有被成功译介的巨大潜力，但对书籍外观或在国外展示的限制有时会影响译介进程。中国在提高自己的文化吸引力方面还有一段路要走，我希望我的翻译能够为中国文化走向世界的努力添砖加瓦。

==2. 中国近现代文学的魅力何在？翻译近现代文学如何加深了你对中国的了解？==

Modern and contemporary literature is one of the best ways to understand a country and a culture. Authors have the ability to drag readers into their thoughts, to let them participate in their line of thoughts and let them look at China through Chinese eyes.

In modern Chinese literature one can see the sparks of ancient literature colliding with foreign literature. Lu Xun, for example, is not only a famous Chinese writer, thinker and revolutionary; in the process of translating Lu Xun's works, take ''Call to the Arms'' (Nahan) as an example, this work truly depicts the social life from the Xinhai Revolution to the May Fourth period, revealing the deep-seated contradictions, profoundly analyzing and attacking the old Chinese system and stereotypes, which provides readers with a new perspective to This provides readers with a new perspective to better understand the culture and characteristics of modern China. On the other hand, with the passage of time, new generations of authors have emerged in the literary world, such as the "post-80s" literature, describing the authors born after 1980. Especially after 2000, the "post-80s" writing, mainly youth literature, has achieved a brilliant success in the literary market.

Han Han is one of the more famous post-80s literary writers. In translating Han Han's "Triple Door", I learned that Han Han is full of wisdom, he uses his own unique narrative to express his understanding of the world, and when he finds himself in tension with the world, he is able to give a clever way to solve it. Han Han uses a humoristic critical surrealism to describe phenomena of contemporary Chinese society. Difficult for the translator is, that Han Han often uses traditional proverbs and then interpretes them not by their allegoric, but by their true meaning and creates a twist in the story line. Since the proverbs have different meanings in the target culture, it takes a long time to find solutions for these frequent turning points in Han Han's stories.

The works of Han Han and Lu Xun both reflect to a certain extent their different understanding of the times, and they have their own different views on different times, and when they reflect their thoughts on the times in their books, this in itself is a way to show their charm. The views of the authors of different eras have the characteristics of the people of different eras, and in understanding their thoughts and works is also the way one can understand China step by step.

中国近现代文学是理解中国及其中国文化本身最好的方式。作家能够让读者明白他们的想法，并且让读者们参与到他们的想法中来，让他们以中国的视野来观看中国。中国近现代文学中能够看到古代文学与外国文学碰撞产生的火花。比如鲁迅，他不仅是中国著名的文学家、思想家、革命家；在对鲁迅的作品进行翻译的过程中，拿《呐喊》为例，这部作品真实描绘了从辛亥革命到五四时期的社会生活，揭示了种种深层次矛盾，对中国旧有制度以及陈腐的传统观念进行了深刻的剖析与抨击，这给读者提供了一个新的角度来更好的了解中国近现代的文化与时代特点。另一方面，随着时间的流逝，一些新兴文学登上了文学界，比如“80后”文学。“80后”写作是新世纪之初中国最重要的文化现象。2000年以后，以青春文学为主体的“80后”写作在文学市场取得了辉煌的胜利。而韩寒则是“80后”文学写作中较有名气的一位。在对韩寒《三重门》进行翻译时，我了解到韩寒充满了智慧，他用自己独特的叙述方式将他对世界的理解表达出来，另外，当他发现自己与世界的紧张关系时，他能够给予一种巧妙的方法进行解决。韩寒与鲁迅的作品都在一定程度上能够反应他们对于时代不同的理解，对于不同的时代，他们有着自己不同的看法，而当他们将自己对时代的思考在书中体现出来时，这本身就是一种魅力展现的方式。不同时代作者的看法都具备了不同时代人的特性，在了解他们思想以及作品的时候也就是读者一步一步了解中国的办法。

==3. 很多文学作品在跨文化的翻译过程中，会让作品失去原本的魅力。那么，你在翻译中国近现代文学作品时，是如何克服翻译瓶颈的？和翻译中国古典文学有何不同之处？==

It is not true, that works of literature lose their original attraction when translated into a different language. That is a prejudice. Almost all literature we read today is translated literature. If you do not translate, you only have national literatures read by local people. If you want to win the nobel prize of literature, you need to be translated at least into English, and best also into Swedish.

Every original has its specific attraction. It can be low or high. If it may be of high attraction to foreign readers - which is not always the same as to be attractive to local readers - then it is worth to be translated. When you translate, you can either make it more attractive or less attractive. This depends on a lot of factors. One is, that you need to understand and appreciate the original fully. Many Chinese readers also cannot understand and appreciate a work fully. So the ideal translator is a foreigner, who has lived in China for several years. There are almost only native speakers of the target language, who produce successful translations in the literary field. The same is true for foreign literature: If it wants to be successful in the Chinese literary market, it needs to be translated by a Chinese translator. An even more ideal translator would be an author by her or himself. So the best poetry translation is done by poets who translated into their own language.

In the education process of translators, they are told that they should master the foreign language as well as their own language. But this is not possible except for people who grew up truly bilingual. Therefore, one should translate into one's own language in order to achieve the best success.

我认为这是一种偏见，实际上文学作品在跨文化的翻译过程中，并不会失去其原本的魅力。今天我们阅读的文学作品几乎全部都是文学译作。如果我们不把文学作品翻译成其他文字，那么我们国家的文学作品只会拥有本土读者；如果我们想要让作品走出去，最好获取诺贝尔文学奖，那就至少得把文学作品翻译成英文，当然最好还要译成瑞典语。
每一部文学作品都拥有或多或少的独特魅力。倘若一部文学作品在外国读者看来是极具魅力的，而本国读者却意见相左，我们把它译成外国文字则是一件很有意义的事情。但是我们在翻译文学作品的时候切忌改变其原本的魅力，既不能增加一分，也不能减少一分。要做到这一点需要考虑许多因素，一个就是我们必须对该文学作品有充分的理解和鉴赏。倘若本土读者对某些国内作品也无法充分地理解和鉴赏，那么翻译该作品的最佳译者可以是那些旅居该国多年的外国译者。通常成功的文学作品翻译大多是由译作语言为母语的译者来完成的，外国文学作品的翻译也同样如此。如果一部外国文学作品想要在中国文学市场取得成功，有必要请一位中国译者来翻译该作品。如果这位译者本人还是一位作者，那是最理想的情况了。这就不难理解为什么最好的诗歌翻译都是由那些译语为母语的诗人完成的。
在译者学习翻译的过程中，往往要求他们必须熟练掌握一门外语，其熟练程度等同于其母语。这一点除了那些从小在双语环境里成长的并列双语者可能实现，对于其他人几乎是不切实际的。因此，译者往往是将外国作品翻译成自己的母语时才能取得更大的成就。

==4. 过去很长一段时期，西方对中国古典文学研究较多，而对现当代文学的翻译和研究较少。曾有外国翻译家直言：“中国当代文学在西方的处境如同沙漠。”这一现象背后的原因是什么？==

Of course the world is a desert, when it comes to Chinese literature. And this is unfair, because there are actually works of literature with a high quality in China.

In Germany, non-German literature accounts for 12,5% of literature, but Chinese literature only for 0,3% of literature. However, before I engaged in translation, we had 11 Chinese literary books per year being translated into German. With my engagement, this figure has roughly doubled. How did I achieve this? I gathered a group of young sinologists in Germany, who all joined into a translators workshop. In this workshop, we now translate about 10 books from Chinese into German, most of it works of literature. With this output, we have doubled the number of books translated from Chinese into German since more than a decade now.

The reason behind the desert phenomenon is, that Chinese literature is only as popular as the country is seen by the international community. The worldwide market for Russian literature broke down since end of February 2022, and at the same time the worldwide market for Ukrainian literature has skyrocketed. Since there was no change in quality, we can see from that that there are foreign perceptions and the image of a country, which plays into it. The easiest way for Chinese literature to become celebrated around the world would be to become a country, which is even more clean and even more free than today.

因此我给自己定了一个目标：将更多的中国文学作品翻译成我的母语——德语。我在德国召集了一些年轻的汉学家加入到一个翻译工作室，一起从事翻译工作。我们目前已经完成了10本中文作品的德语翻译，其中大部分是文学作品。因为我们的努力使中国书籍德译数量同十年前比翻了一番。
造成文学“沙漠化现象”的原因则是：文学作品的受欢迎程度与该国在世界的受欢迎程度相关。从2022年2月底开始，俄罗斯文学的全球市场已经崩溃，而与此同时我们发现乌克兰文学的全球市场却迅猛增长。我们可以看到两国文学作品的质量并没有发生任何变化，是外国对于两国的看法以及国家自身的形象左右了其文学作品的受欢迎度。让中国文学作品誉满全球的最简单的办法就是中国政府进一步加强环境保护和人权保障工作。
其次因为各个国家的意识形态不同，难免会使中国当代文学在国外出现接受难或者认知偏差的情况。我想指出的是无论是哪国的文学作品，如果遭遇过度意识形态化、过度政治化的解读、阐释与译介，其文学性与诗学价值很可能会大打折扣甚至完全被遮蔽。
文化心态与接受心态因素：文化输入和文化输出国地位的对比会影响目标文化的输入意愿从而左右文化输出的成效。文化接受的不均衡性必然导致文化接受语境以及读者接受心态的不均衡现象，而文化层面的“傲慢”与“偏见”会影响翻译作品和翻译策略的选择，进一步影响到作品的传播。因而中国文学作品倘若需要走出去，首先参加这个交流的人必须充分准确地认识自己的文化，同时也充分了解接收国的文化。
翻译副文本因素：副文本即解读文本，是文本的重要构建形态，译作前言是构成副文本的重要组成部分。译者通过前言介绍作品的创作者、评价其作品、指导读者了解作品艺术特色及解读作品。中国出版商往往会将我译作的前言部分略去，这样会影响外国读者对该作品的了解，使中国文学作品在海外传播出现接受障碍。
五是对国外目标读者群体的研究不够深入会影响其对于中国当代文学作品的认知和接受程度。

==5. 近年来，中国近现代文学在西方“遇冷”的现象有所改变吗？目前的接受程度如何？哪些类型的中国近现代文学更容易吸引欧洲读者？==

There is the underlying problem of the popularity of China as a country in general in the eyes of people in America, Europe, and Africa. Especially in the United States we have seen a drop in popularity of China from 42% pro and 38% contra in 2008 to 22% pro and 73% contra in 2020 according to the Pew Research Center. Of course this drop in popularity is partly home made. So there are concrete measures to enhance the image of China in the world, e.g. reduction of corruption, enhancement of the rule of law, reliability, trust, power control, self-criticism regarding own problems and mistakes and the taking over of as much responsibility for peace and stability in the world as much China represents one fourth of the world population and is among the two largest economies in the world.

Literature itself can contribute its share by delivering high quality literature. Although most of Chinese literature is below world literature quality since the 1930s, there are still a few works worth translating. Some contemporary writers, such as Mo Yan, Liu Cixin, Yan Lianke, Su Tong, and Yu Hua, have already gained some influence among Western readers, but many more writers are still obscure. On the whole, Chinese literature has not yet developed a stable profile with its own characteristics among Western readers.

Chinese authors could also enhance the quality of their literature by learning several languages and reading the literature of other countries in their original languages. In 1920's China, Chinese writers naturally spoke different languages and also participated in the cultural exchange and translated literature. Through this intense cultural exchange, also Lu Xun's short story "The True Story of Ah Q" was translated into French and supported by the French author Romand Rollain.

Among the literary categories, science fiction, children's literature and online literature are more popular among Western readers, including European readers, while works with strong political content are less popular. According to a study by Ariadne Consulting, the scale of overseas users of Chinese online literature has reached more than 80 million in 2020, which has a very strong appeal to Western readers.

在美国、欧洲和非洲，中国作为一个国家本身的受欢迎度不高，这也影响了中国近现代文学在全球的传播。尤其是在美国，根据皮尤研究中心(Pew Research Center)的数据，可以看到中国的受欢迎程度从2008年的42%欢迎和38%不欢迎下降到2020年的22%欢迎和73%不欢迎。这使中国近现代文学在西方的传播仍不容乐观。

中国国家在西方受欢迎程度的下降，除国际原因之外也有一部分国内原因。对此，也有一些具体的措施，例如持续减少腐败、加强法治、可信度和自我批评，提升对权力机制的监管，以及继续为世界和平稳定作出应有的贡献。

文坛自身也可以多多产出高质量文学作品。自20世纪30年代以来，中国文学有时受政治因素影响，但高质量作品仍然较为丰富。像莫言、刘慈欣、阎连科、苏童、余华等一些当代作家已经在西方读者中具有一定的影响力，但更多的作家则依旧面目模糊。从整体上来说，中国文学尚未在西方读者中形成具有自身特色的稳定面貌。中国作家可以多阅读其他国家的文学作品，达到取长补短、兼收并蓄的效果。例如在20世纪20年代的中国，中国作家如鲁迅就积极参与文化交流和翻译。通过这种激烈的文化交流，鲁迅的短篇小说《阿Q正传》被翻译成法文，并得到了法国作家罗曼•罗兰的支持。

在文学类别中，科幻小说、儿童文学以及网络文学是西方读者包括欧洲读者较为欢迎的，而政治性强的作品则不太受欢迎。据艾瑞咨询研究显示，2020年中国网络文学海外用户规模已达到八千万以上，对西方读者有非常强的吸引力。

==6. 你扎实的语言基本功和翻译水平使你的作品在欧美汉学界引起了广泛关注。你认为翻译中国近现代文学能为中西文化交流做出怎样的贡献？==

If we want to better the situation of cultural exchange and mutual understanding, we may reform the country to make it more popular. We also need to bring people together. To get to know someone from the other country often changes the attitude towards the country. This can start with school partnerships and end with city partnerships. Of course there also needs to be found a long term solution between China's self-chosen isolation due to the Zero-Covid strategy and the open world around China.

We can also catch the attention of foreign readers with other cultural phenomena, which are received favorably. For example, the blockbuster movies of the 5th generation Chinese film directors has extremely pushed the reception of Chinese works of literature. Red Sorghum, Ju Dou, Life etc. are all works of literature adapted to films.

Another way is to introduce Chinese food culture with films like "The Wedding Banquet" or "Eat, drink, man, women" or Chinese martial arts with "Crouching Tiger, hidden dragon".

Moreover, the best way to understand a people a country a culture is by reading its modern literature. Through the text, the author can lead the reader into his mind and engage the reader in the trajectory of his thoughts, so that the reader can understand China through the eyes of the Chinese and break down prejudices. For example, An Lezhe and Luo Siwen's attempt to find a way out from a comparative philosophical perspective in their interpretation of the ''Analects'' successfully transmits ancient Chinese philosophical thought to the English-speaking world. Also Yu Dan's ''Confucius from the Heart'' has helped to export Confucian ideas internationally.

如果我们想要改善文化交流和相互理解的状况，除了上面罗列的方法之外，我们还需要让人们团结起来。通常来说，当人们真正了解了来自一个国家的人，他们常常会改变对这个国家的态度。因此我们可以多多与其他国家内部建立学校伙伴关系和城市伙伴关系等。当然，由于中国现在采取“清零”战略，选择自我隔离，而中国周边世界已经开放，我们需要找到一个行之有效的解决方案。

我们也可以用其他文化方式来吸引外国读者的注意，这个方法很受欢迎。例如，中国第五代电影导演拍摄的大片极大地推动了西方对中国文学作品的接受，《红高粱》、《菊豆》、《人生》等都是改编成电影的文学作品。

我们还通过电影《婚宴》、《饮食男女》等来介绍中国的饮食文化，或者通过电影《卧虎藏龙》来介绍中国的武术。

翻译中国近现代文学能够丰富世界文学，中国近现代文学中有许多优秀作品。这些作品值得被世界人民所看到。

此外，了解一个民族一个国家一种文化的最好方式就是通过阅读它的近现代文学。通过文字，作者可以带领读者进入他的思想，让读者参与他的思想轨迹，使读者能够通过中国人的眼睛了解中国，打破偏见。比如安乐哲和罗思文对《论语》进行阐释时尝试从比较哲学角度寻找出路，成功地把中国古代哲学思想传到英语世界。于丹的《论语心得》也帮助了全球传播儒学的道理。

==7. 近现代东西方文学有何交流与相互影响？==

China and the West in modern times has been the Western missionaries who came to China, the foreign students, and the overseas Chinese who emigrated. Western missionaries introduced classical Chinese literature to the West, such as James Legge who was one of the first to publish the Chinese Classics in English, whose purpose was to introduce Eastern culture, philosophical thought and customs to Western readers.

Chinese scholars, such as Zhu Shenghao, were among the first Chinese translators of Shakespeare's works, Guo Moruo of Goethe's works, and the quality and style of their translations are recognized by Shakespearean researchers at home and abroad. The mutual exchange of Eastern and Western literature in modern times has not only promoted the development of Chinese literature, but also enriched world literature. The rich variety of Western literature provides more choices for Chinese reading, not only ''Romeo and Juliet'' love stories, but also anti-utopian literature like ''Animal Farm''. Chinese literature also brings something different to the West in terms of vision and experience. Based on his international readings, Mo Yan has created his vernacular works, which give Western readers a sense of the Chinese vernacular.

The exchange of literature is rising. Currently, we have a peak in German children literature licences going to China.

Also, more Chinese literature is translated into foreign languages, also due to the sponsorship program by the government.

However, printing books with money does not replace a missing market demand. Only if the market itself asks for Chinese books, Chinese literature will increase its worldwide presence. And if that happens, sponsorship is also not needed any more and could be reduced to the much smaller budgets of translation sponsorship we see in other countries.

近代以来中西文化交流的主力是来华的西方传教士、留学生和移民海外的华侨华人。
西方传教士把中国古典文学介绍到了西方，比如理雅各出版了《中国经典》的第一卷，其目的就是为了向西方读者介绍东方的文化、哲学思想和风土人情。

还有中国的有识之士如朱生豪是中国翻译莎士比亚作品较早的人之一，郭沫若是歌德作品最早翻译家之一，其译文质量和风格卓具特色，为国内外莎士比亚研究者所公认。

近现代东西方文学相互交流，不仅促进了中国文学的发展，而且还丰富了世界文学。西方文学种类丰富，为中国人阅读提供了更多选择，不仅有《罗密欧与朱丽叶》这样的爱情故事，也有《动物农场》之类的反乌托邦文学。中国文学也会给西方带来一些不一样的视野和体验。莫言在读获得诺贝尔文学奖的全球文学作品的基础上写了乡土作品，让西方读者真切感受到中国的乡土人情。

文学的交流正在上升。目前，我们有一个德国儿童文学许可证前往中国的高峰。

此外，更多的中国文学作品被翻译成外语，这也是由于政府的赞助计划。

然而，用钱印书并不能取代缺失的市场需求。只有当市场本身需要中国书籍时，中国文学才会增加其在全世界的影响力。如果这样，赞助也就不再需要了，可以减少到我们在其他国家看到的小得多的翻译赞助的预算。

=受访者简介：=

吴漠汀(Martin Woesler)，男，生于1969年，德国著名汉学家、欧洲科学院院士、欧盟让•莫内讲席教授，德国维藤大学研究院、曾任德国慕尼黑应用语言大学中文系主任、罗马第三大学讲席教授、美国由他谷大学副教授。2019年9月受聘湖南师范大学潇湘学者特聘教授。主要研究领域为《红楼梦》、比较文学、翻译、跨文化交流、中国现当代文学。他通晓德语、汉语、英语，先后翻译鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国作家的作品。他同史华慈（Rainer Schwarz)先生共同翻译完成的《红楼梦》,是《红楼梦》首部完整德文译本。荣获2020年度中国政府友谊奖。

参考资料

https://www.sohu.com/a/442142_106055

外国翻译家：中国当代文学在西方的处境如同沙漠
2014-10-30 12:13

在昨天举行的一场“汉学与当代中国”座谈会上，面对采访的几位国外翻译家表示对中国当代文学作品在国外的翻译出版很不乐观，他们毫不留情地用“太差了”、“沙漠”、“怪怪的”等来形容中国当代文学在西方的处境，令记者感到意外。

怎么了

俄罗斯曾经三年没出版一本中国当代文学书籍

俄罗斯圣彼得堡国立大学东方系常务副主任罗季奥诺夫很形象的控诉中国当代文学在俄罗斯的“惨状”：“与政治经济的热相比，中国文学在俄罗斯不能说是冷的，但至少是凉的。”罗季奥诺夫介绍，“翻译逆差明显，达到了20倍，俄罗斯的80后和90后根本就不知道当代中国文学是什么，他们只了解西方文学。”

据他统计，1990年到2005年这15年间，中国当代文学在俄罗斯一共只出版了8本书，平均两年一本，“简直是沙漠”，2005年到2008年因为有合作项目，出版了几本书，2008年金融危机后到2010年的3年间，一本书也没有，2011年出版了1本，才卖出去1000册，2012年好一点，出版了2本，一共卖出去8300册。

加拿大西门菲莎大学教授、汉学家Jan Walls痴迷中国文化，不但给自己起了个地道的中文名字王健，还会表演数来宝。“我注意到，2013年我们的作家门罗得了诺贝尔文学奖后，中国的出版社出版了9本她的小说，而2012年莫言得了诺奖后，却没有同等的待遇，加拿大并没有因为莫言得奖就多出版他的书。”王健说，加拿大的汉学家和翻译家不少，但有个共同的“毛病”，就是重视中国古典文学，轻视中国当代文学，包括他自己，作为叶嘉莹的学生，也更喜欢翻译古诗词。

西班牙马德里自治大学东亚研究中心主任、翻译家达西安娜·菲萨克，在上世纪80年代就翻译了大量的巴金、钱钟书等名家的作品到西班牙。她也直言中国当代文学在西班牙的境况不乐观。

为什么

中国当代作品的翻译连资深汉学家都发憷

对于中国当代文学作品不被国外接受的另外一个原因，是跨文化的翻译过程让作品失去了其魅力。土耳其安卡拉大学中文系主任欧凯带着几个中文流利的博士生来中国交流，他指了指自己的学生，“土耳其目前中国文学的大部分译者都是我的学生，我不应该这样直接批评我的学生，但我必须要说，翻译得太差了，很多错误。”

欧凯的手机里面存着许多张图书的图片，每一张里都有用红色笔圈出来的字句。欧凯向《北京晚报》记者展示这些他随时翻看的翻译作品，其中有铁凝的《永远有多远》，欧凯很喜欢铁凝的文字，“可是你看，这本书的名字就翻译错了，还有王刚的作品《英格力士》，书名直接翻译成《英语》了，这怎么能一样呢。”欧凯又翻到一本莫言的作品，其中的“八路”翻译成了“第八大道”：“他们不了解中国文化，不了解创作背后的含义，如果我是普通读者，到书店里拿起这样一本书翻一下，根本不会去买。”

这种翻译的困难有时也并不只是年轻的译者中文水平有限所致，而是中西文化差异过大。菲萨克告诉记者，尽管已经有三十年的翻译经验，但是在翻译当代作品时还是发憷：“翻译当代的文学作品有些困难，大部分都是通过英文和法文的译本再翻译成西班牙文。”这样就造成了二次转述中和原文更大的误差。她还提到，中国曾经组织了一批西班牙语好的外语人才，将中国作品翻译到西班牙。“我不认为这种做法可行，因为我看了书以后，觉得语言都是怪怪的，读者看过之后可能更觉得中国是个距离遥远的文化了。”

怎么办

这事儿需要政府牵引靠个人力量肯定不行

欧凯的建议很直接，希望土耳其政府和中国政府共同为翻译作品的质量把关。“政府必须介入，之前的翻译都是很个人的事情，喜欢哪本书，跟出版社说，就开始翻译，根本无法保证翻译的质量。”欧凯认为，可以成立一个委员会，监督和审查翻译的质量，为作品严格把关，“这件事情肯定要政府去做，靠个人的力量是不行的。”

罗季奥诺夫则提出了具体的建议，希望俄罗斯的孔子学院和中国作家协会合作推出翻译项目，“不但要翻译，更要推广，不是把书出版就行了，还要大力推广，比如莫言和余华这样一批有名气的中国作家，完全可以走商业宣传的方式。”罗季奥诺夫也敏感地提出，在翻译作品时要特别注意本土读者的接受程度：“我发现很多在中国特别受欢迎的作品，俄罗斯人很不喜欢，甚至还会反感，引起对于中国人的误解，挑选什么样的文学作品很关键。”

菲萨克一直以来担心的西班牙“缺少真正懂中文的人”的人才不足问题，随着2008年西班牙大学开始招收本科汉语专业的学生有了很大改变，可以寄希望于后辈：“目前已经培养了一批年轻的汉学家，真正在搞翻译，真正因为喜欢中国文学才会做这件事。”

同样为人才担心的加拿大学者王健也说，别看加拿大面积大，但是人口还不及云南省的人口，翻译人才就更少了。“现在有一个现象，是中国移民到加拿大，在大学继续学习中国文学的学者们，有这样一批中青年学者在从事翻译工作，都是自发的。”王健说。本报记者陈梦溪返回搜狐，查看更多

Interview by Wan Shuyuan 2022

2022-04-23T16:08:31Z

Back to [[JM]] page

Links to other interviews as background information: [[2021_Interview_with_Duan_Yuanyuan]], [[Longer_interview_version_dated_March_3_2021]], [[Interview_Univerlag_2022]].

Aim: Give guidance for the field, make some provocative but true statements. Reflect current discussions both in China and internationally. Refer to Web literature work by Chen Dingjia (CASS) and to "Intellectual History" by Chen Zhongyi.

'''汉学家吴漠汀：我为何翻译中国现当代文学?'''

近年来,随着中国作家屡在国际获奖，越来越多中国现当代作家的作品开始受到世界关注。德国汉学家吴漠汀翻译了鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国作家的众多作品。

中新社记者拟以“我为何翻译中国现当代文学?”为题，采访德国汉学家吴漠汀教授。

采访问题如下：

==1. 你不仅翻译了《红楼梦》德文版本，还先后翻译了鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国近现代作家的作品。你为何钟情于中国近现代文学？==

The main reason is, that from the perspective of world literature, Chinese literature is underrepresented in the world. Regarding the quality, the Qing Red Chamber Dreams in guanhua and Lu Xun's "The True Story of Ah Q" in early baihua were among the globally best pieces of literature of their time. In general, we can say that many works of Chinese literature of the 1920s was of a world leading high quality, also because the Chinese writers were in close exchange with the national literatures of the world.

Since 1930, when the League of Left Wing Writers was founded, Chinese authors changed from writing high quality literature for literature's sake to writing literature for political purpose, they voluntarily gave up quality and international compatibility. However, even under this environment, some excellent authors emerged like the ones I translated. So we still have a few works of excellent Chinese literature today. These works are worth to be translated and to made known to the world.

This is the more the case, since we have many more e.g. English, French, Spanish and German literature translated into Chinese than the other way round. One of the reasons why not much Chinese literature is translated into foreign languages is that China as a country ranks among the countries with the lowest popularity all around the world. A major reason for that is her corruption and autocratic system. If China can reform and open up more, also its culture will naturally become more popular all around the world.

Another reason why modern Chinese literature appeals to me is the local characteristics embedded in these works. For example, Mr. Jia Pingwa's works contain a large number of dialects, local traditions unique to his hometown, etc. His works are wonderful, but the amount of his works translated is much lower than the quality of his works deserves, because these parts are difficult to be translated into foreign languages. I think these distinctive cultures are also worth spreading, and I would be happy to translate such Chinese vernacular stories and bring them to the world.

Top Chinese literature of modern and contemporary times is extremely rich. Lu Xun has shaped the new vernacular. His whole life he was torn between the need he saw for political reform and his doubts, if literature can be effective in this respect. Among all international great writers, Lu Xun was the one who even stood above the Nobel Prize of Literature, when he declined to be listed as candidate for it. With Ah Q, Kong Yiji, The Madman's Diary, he wrote the internationally most advanced and modern literature of his time. Until today it is a desideratum to publish his Complete Works in English. I translated for example his essays on the book burning in Germany.

I also translated Yu Qiuyu's History of Calligraphy, which gives foreigners an in-depth inside into this important art and its role and position in Chinese cultural history, considering it the basis of all arts and as important as music, painting and literature.

Wang Meng has not only won the hearts of Chinese readers with his nostalgic revolution love story "Long live the Youth", but has also contributed a lot to the experimental development of the stream-of-consciousness style in literature. I have translated his short story "Hard Porridge" and his autobiographical book "China - Deciphered".

I very much enjoyed to translate Han Shaogong's works "Verblassender Mond über dem verlassenen Innenhof" (空院残月), which shows a dense atmosphere of 1930s China under Japanese occupation, and "Der Zorn des Buddha" (怒目金刚), which shows the stubborness of a rule breaker and also contains some supernatural elements.

Because of the life experience I share with Xu Zechen as student at Peking University, and therefore I felt very much at home when translating his "Ah Peking!".

Zhang Wei delivers both, on the one hand very intense descriptions of the struggle of men in nature and local sceneries with "Baummoos pflücken", "Meerwind", "Auf ins Maisfeld", "Fuchs und Wein", "Herbstzorn" und "Weintrauben im Herbstregen" and on the other hand the world of cadres between good intentions and the temptations of bribery with "Rette bitte den Künstler".

Although Han Han is better known as race driver and film regisseur, e.g. for the blockbuster "Four Seas", he is a successful and skilfull writer too, so I have translated his works "Three Gates", "Glorious Days", and "His Land". Compared to Guo Jingming, who is more celebrity than author, Han Han produces high quality literature, especially with his road novel "1988: I want to talk with the world", translated by Howard Goldblatt.

I also chose to translate Mian Mian's novel "Panda Sex" because I wanted to check, if it was really "rubbish literature" as it was once claimed by a critic. I visited her in Shanghai and discovered that her works are so authentic, because he mostly described her own life experience. The novel Panda Sex was composed with an experimental writing style: Only at the end of the novel, the reader understands that the recurring quotes in the novel are actual recordings, which Mian Mian took from philosophical talks at various parties in Shanghai.

In general, to support cultural attractiveness, the so-called "soft power" with "hard power" means, e.g. financial support, can backfire. The United States was long seen as a country where poor or criminal European immigrated to. It was a country of slavery and its racism was severe even until the 1970s. Since then, the United States have reformed and earned the trust of many other countries in the world. So without investing into soft power, it naturally became a soft superpower. People all over the world eat the unhealthy American fast food, simply because the United States has an attractiveness and people feel to be part of the "land of the free" or the "American dream" when they eat the food.

As I understand it, in 2000, the Chinese National People's Congress initially proposed a "go global" strategy. The Chinese government supports the export of Chinese culture financially especially since 2007. It also supports the translation of Chinese literature and propaganda books into foreign languages. In the beginning, the policy was not applied properly. The most funding was offered for propaganda books, and not from the perspective which works of literature and which fact books can be successful abroad. This practise has become better now. However, the sales figures of Chinese books abroad are still lowered because the partnering Chinese publishing houses make the final edit of the translations and have the final say how to design the covers. They often change the colors, take away the illustrations and eye-catching cover texts.

In this way, while many Chinese literary works have great potential for worldwide success, restrictions on how books look or are presented abroad sometimes undermine that potential. China still has a way to go in enhancing its own cultural appeal, and I hope that my translations will add to the effort to bring Chinese culture to the world.

主要是因为，从世界文学的角度来看，中国文学一直保持着良好的水平。即使是在20世纪30年代后中国政局和文坛动荡的艰难时刻，中国仍然出现了一些优秀的文学作品，所以我认为这些作品值得翻译，也值得向世界宣传。目前在世界范围内，其他语言，诸如英语，法语，西班牙语和德语作品翻译成中文的情况居多，而中文作品翻译成其他语言的情况较少，中文作品在世界上受欢迎程度不够高。在我看来，出现这种现象主要与中国的历史地位、中西方的文化差异、国际局势有一定关系。
中国近代文学吸引我的另一个原因在于这些作品中蕴含的地方特色。比如贾平凹先生的作品中就包含有大量的方言，他家乡特有的地方传统等等元素。他的作品非常精彩，但是被翻译量却无法反映远作品质量，可能就是因为这些部分很难被翻译成外语。我认为这些特色文化也值得传播，我也乐意将这样的中国乡土故事翻译出来，带给世界。
中国近现代顶级文学极为丰富，文学大家层出不穷。因此我选择翻译了大量近现代文学作品，有一些作家的作品我尤为感兴趣，因此对他们的作品关注较多：
鲁迅是近代以来白话写作的鼻祖。他的一生都因两件事而犹豫挣扎：他自知中国需要政治改革，却不知道文学能否在这方面发挥作用。在国际上所有伟大作家之中，鲁迅在拒绝被列为诺贝尔文学奖的候选人时，他的高度甚至超越了诺贝尔文学奖的地位。以《阿Q正传》《孔乙己》《狂人日记》为代表，他创作了当时国际上最先进的现代文学作品。直到今天，出版英文版的鲁迅全集仍迫在眉睫。例如，我本人就翻译了在德国比较热门的部分鲁迅文章。
我还翻译了余秋雨的《书法史》，这本书让外国人能够深入了解了书法这门重要的艺术及其在中国文化史上的地位和作用，让人能意识到书法是一切艺术的基础，与音乐、绘画、文学同等重要。

王蒙不仅以其怀旧的革命爱情小说《青春万岁》赢得了中国读者的心，而且为意识流文体在文学中的实验性发展做出了巨大贡献。我翻译过他的短篇小说《坚硬的稀粥》和他的自传#China - Deciphered#.
我非常喜欢翻译韩少功的作品《空院残月》，这本书显示出20世纪30年代以来中国深受日本影响的那种氛围。同时还有他的《怒目金刚》，这本书里展示出一位规则破坏者的固执，也包含一些超自然的元素。
我和徐则臣曾同在北大有过学习经历，所以在翻译他的《北上》时，我感到翻译得十分自在流畅。
张炜的书中阐述了两种情况，一种是如《采树鳔》, 《海的风》, 《钻玉米地》, 《狐狸和酒》, 《秋天的愤怒》以及《秋雨洗葡萄》这样的作品，情感强烈地描述了人类在自然和当地风景中的斗争，另一种则是如《请挽救艺术家》这样的作品，写出了干部的世界在善意和贿赂的诱惑之间的挣扎。

虽然韩寒更出名的是作为赛车手和电影导演的身份（比如他拍过电影大片《四海》），但他也是一个成功、技巧娴熟的作家。我翻译了他的作品《三门》《光辉岁月》和《他的土地》。不同于郭敬明，与其说郭敬明是作家，不如说他是社会名人。韩寒的文学作品质量很高，尤其是他的公路小说《1988:我想和这个世界说话》（由葛浩文翻译）。

而我之所以选择翻译棉棉的小说《熊猫》，也是因为我想确认一下，它是否真的如一位评论家所说的那样是“垃圾文学”。于是我在上海拜访了她，一番了解后发现，她的作品是如此的真实，因为书中主要描述的是她自己的生活经历。小说《熊猫》使用的一种实验性的写作风格：直到小说结尾，读者才会发现小说中反复出现的引用其实是真实的录音，是棉棉在上海各种聚会上录下来的哲学谈话。
总的来说，在我看来，中国文学作品要更好地走向世界，应该努力提升自己的文化吸引力，在“软实力”以及“硬实力”方面下功夫。但我猜测提供财政支持以提升软实力，可能会适得其反。

据我了解，2000 年，中国人大就初步提出“走出去”战略。自2007年起，中国政府在财政上开始支持中国文化向外输出。中国政府还支持本国将中国文学类和外宣类书籍翻译成外文。起初，这项政策没能合理施行。大部分资金用于翻译外宣类书籍，而非用于翻译本可在国外市场成功流通的文学作品以及纪实作品。虽然目前这项政策的施行效果有所好转，中国图书在海外的销量仍然未达到最理想效果。这其中的一个重要原因是因为合作的中国出版社拥有翻译的最终编辑权，以及封面设计的最终决定权。中国出版社有时候会更改书籍封面的颜色，插图和吸睛的腰封文字。这样一来，尽管许多中国文学作品有在世界范围内获得成功的巨大潜力，但对书籍的外观或在国外呈现的方式进行限制，有时会破坏这种潜力。中国在提升自身文化吸引力上，还有一段路要走，我也希望我的翻译能够为中国文化走向世界添一份力。

==2. 中国近现代文学的魅力何在？翻译近现代文学如何加深了你对中国的了解？==

Modern and contemporary literature is one of the best ways to understand a country and a culture. Authors have the ability to drag readers into their thoughts, to let them participate in their line of thoughts and let them look at China through Chinese eyes.

In modern Chinese literature one can see the sparks of ancient literature colliding with foreign literature. Lu Xun, for example, is not only a famous Chinese writer, thinker and revolutionary; in the process of translating Lu Xun's works, take ''Call to the Arms'' (Nahan) as an example, this work truly depicts the social life from the Xinhai Revolution to the May Fourth period, revealing the deep-seated contradictions, profoundly analyzing and attacking the old Chinese system and stereotypes, which provides readers with a new perspective to This provides readers with a new perspective to better understand the culture and characteristics of modern China. On the other hand, with the passage of time, new generations of authors have emerged in the literary world, such as the "post-80s" literature, describing the authors born after 1980. Especially after 2000, the "post-80s" writing, mainly youth literature, has achieved a brilliant success in the literary market.

Han Han is one of the more famous post-80s literary writers. In translating Han Han's "Triple Door", I learned that Han Han is full of wisdom, he uses his own unique narrative to express his understanding of the world, and when he finds himself in tension with the world, he is able to give a clever way to solve it. Han Han uses a humoristic critical surrealism to describe phenomena of contemporary Chinese society. Difficult for the translator is, that Han Han often uses traditional proverbs and then interpretes them not by their allegoric, but by their true meaning and creates a twist in the story line. Since the proverbs have different meanings in the target culture, it takes a long time to find solutions for these frequent turning points in Han Han's stories.

The works of Han Han and Lu Xun both reflect to a certain extent their different understanding of the times, and they have their own different views on different times, and when they reflect their thoughts on the times in their books, this in itself is a way to show their charm. The views of the authors of different eras have the characteristics of the people of different eras, and in understanding their thoughts and works is also the way one can understand China step by step.

中国近现代文学是理解中国及其中国文化本身最好的方式。作家能够让读者明白他们的想法，并且让读者们参与到他们的想法中来，让他们以中国的视野来观看中国。中国近现代文学中能够看到古代文学与外国文学碰撞产生的火花。比如鲁迅，他不仅是中国著名的文学家、思想家、革命家；在对鲁迅的作品进行翻译的过程中，拿《呐喊》为例，这部作品真实描绘了从辛亥革命到五四时期的社会生活，揭示了种种深层次矛盾，对中国旧有制度以及陈腐的传统观念进行了深刻的剖析与抨击，这给读者提供了一个新的角度来更好的了解中国近现代的文化与时代特点。另一方面，随着时间的流逝，一些新兴文学登上了文学界，比如“80后”文学。“80后”写作是新世纪之初中国最重要的文化现象。2000年以后，以青春文学为主体的“80后”写作在文学市场取得了辉煌的胜利。而韩寒则是“80后”文学写作中较有名气的一位。在对韩寒《三重门》进行翻译时，我了解到韩寒充满了智慧，他用自己独特的叙述方式将他对世界的理解表达出来，另外，当他发现自己与世界的紧张关系时，他能够给予一种巧妙的方法进行解决。韩寒与鲁迅的作品都在一定程度上能够反应他们对于时代不同的理解，对于不同的时代，他们有着自己不同的看法，而当他们将自己对时代的思考在书中体现出来时，这本身就是一种魅力展现的方式。不同时代作者的看法都具备了不同时代人的特性，在了解他们思想以及作品的时候也就是读者一步一步了解中国的办法。

==3. 很多文学作品在跨文化的翻译过程中，会让作品失去原本的魅力。那么，你在翻译中国近现代文学作品时，是如何克服翻译瓶颈的？和翻译中国古典文学有何不同之处？==

It is not true, that works of literature lose their original attraction when translated into a different language. That is a prejudice. Almost all literature we read today is translated literature. If you do not translate, you only have national literatures read by local people. If you want to win the nobel prize of literature, you need to be translated at least into English, and best also into Swedish.

Every original has its specific attraction. It can be low or high. If it may be of high attraction to foreign readers - which is not always the same as to be attractive to local readers - then it is worth to be translated. When you translate, you can either make it more attractive or less attractive. This depends on a lot of factors. One is, that you need to understand and appreciate the original fully. Many Chinese readers also cannot understand and appreciate a work fully. So the ideal translator is a foreigner, who has lived in China for several years. There are almost only native speakers of the target language, who produce successful translations in the literary field. The same is true for foreign literature: If it wants to be successful in the Chinese literary market, it needs to be translated by a Chinese translator. An even more ideal translator would be an author by her or himself. So the best poetry translation is done by poets who translated into their own language.

In the education process of translators, they are told that they should master the foreign language as well as their own language. But this is not possible except for people who grew up truly bilingual. Therefore, one should translate into one's own language in order to achieve the best success.

我认为这是一种偏见，实际上文学作品在跨文化的翻译过程中，并不会失去其原本的魅力。今天我们阅读的文学作品几乎全部都是文学译作。如果我们不把文学作品翻译成其他文字，那么我们国家的文学作品只会拥有本土读者；如果我们想要让作品走出去，最好获取诺贝尔文学奖，那就至少得把文学作品翻译成英文，当然最好还要译成瑞典语。
每一部文学作品都拥有或多或少的独特魅力。倘若一部文学作品在外国读者看来是极具魅力的，而本国读者却意见相左，我们把它译成外国文字则是一件很有意义的事情。但是我们在翻译文学作品的时候切忌改变其原本的魅力，既不能增加一分，也不能减少一分。要做到这一点需要考虑许多因素，一个就是我们必须对该文学作品有充分的理解和鉴赏。倘若本土读者对某些国内作品也无法充分地理解和鉴赏，那么翻译该作品的最佳译者可以是那些旅居该国多年的外国译者。通常成功的文学作品翻译大多是由译作语言为母语的译者来完成的，外国文学作品的翻译也同样如此。如果一部外国文学作品想要在中国文学市场取得成功，有必要请一位中国译者来翻译该作品。如果这位译者本人还是一位作者，那是最理想的情况了。这就不难理解为什么最好的诗歌翻译都是由那些译语为母语的诗人完成的。
在译者学习翻译的过程中，往往要求他们必须熟练掌握一门外语，其熟练程度等同于其母语。这一点除了那些从小在双语环境里成长的并列双语者可能实现，对于其他人几乎是不切实际的。因此，译者往往是将外国作品翻译成自己的母语时才能取得更大的成就。

==4. 过去很长一段时期，西方对中国古典文学研究较多，而对现当代文学的翻译和研究较少。曾有外国翻译家直言：“中国当代文学在西方的处境如同沙漠。”这一现象背后的原因是什么？==

Of course the world is a desert, when it comes to Chinese literature. And this is unfair, because there are actually works of literature with a high quality in China.

In Germany, non-German literature accounts for 12,5% of literature, but Chinese literature only for 0,3% of literature. However, before I engaged in translation, we had 11 Chinese literary books per year being translated into German. With my engagement, this figure has roughly doubled. How did I achieve this? I gathered a group of young sinologists in Germany, who all joined into a translators workshop. In this workshop, we now translate about 10 books from Chinese into German, most of it works of literature. With this output, we have doubled the number of books translated from Chinese into German since more than a decade now.

The reason behind the desert phenomenon is, that Chinese literature is only as popular as the country is seen by the international community. The worldwide market for Russian literature broke down since end of February 2022, and at the same time the worldwide market for Ukrainian literature has skyrocketed. Since there was no change in quality, we can see from that that there are foreign perceptions and the image of a country, which plays into it. The easiest way for Chinese literature to become celebrated around the world would be to become a country, which is even more clean and even more free than today.

因此我给自己定了一个目标：将更多的中国文学作品翻译成我的母语——德语。我在德国召集了一些年轻的汉学家加入到一个翻译工作室，一起从事翻译工作。我们目前已经完成了10本中文作品的德语翻译，其中大部分是文学作品。因为我们的努力使中国书籍德译数量同十年前比翻了一番。
造成文学“沙漠化现象”的原因则是：文学作品的受欢迎程度与该国在世界的受欢迎程度相关。从2022年2月底开始，俄罗斯文学的全球市场已经崩溃，而与此同时我们发现乌克兰文学的全球市场却迅猛增长。我们可以看到两国文学作品的质量并没有发生任何变化，是外国对于两国的看法以及国家自身的形象左右了其文学作品的受欢迎度。让中国文学作品誉满全球的最简单的办法就是中国政府进一步加强环境保护和人权保障工作。
其次因为各个国家的意识形态不同，难免会使中国当代文学在国外出现接受难或者认知偏差的情况。我想指出的是无论是哪国的文学作品，如果遭遇过度意识形态化、过度政治化的解读、阐释与译介，其文学性与诗学价值很可能会大打折扣甚至完全被遮蔽。
文化心态与接受心态因素：文化输入和文化输出国地位的对比会影响目标文化的输入意愿从而左右文化输出的成效。文化接受的不均衡性必然导致文化接受语境以及读者接受心态的不均衡现象，而文化层面的“傲慢”与“偏见”会影响翻译作品和翻译策略的选择，进一步影响到作品的传播。因而中国文学作品倘若需要走出去，首先参加这个交流的人必须充分准确地认识自己的文化，同时也充分了解接收国的文化。
翻译副文本因素：副文本即解读文本，是文本的重要构建形态，译作前言是构成副文本的重要组成部分。译者通过前言介绍作品的创作者、评价其作品、指导读者了解作品艺术特色及解读作品。中国出版商往往会将我译作的前言部分略去，这样会影响外国读者对该作品的了解，使中国文学作品在海外传播出现接受障碍。
五是对国外目标读者群体的研究不够深入会影响其对于中国当代文学作品的认知和接受程度。

==5. 近年来，中国近现代文学在西方“遇冷”的现象有所改变吗？目前的接受程度如何？哪些类型的中国近现代文学更容易吸引欧洲读者？==

There is the underlying problem of the popularity of China as a country in general in the eyes of people in America, Europe, and Africa. Especially in the United States we have seen a drop in popularity of China from 42% pro and 38% contra in 2008 to 22% pro and 73% contra in 2020 according to the Pew Research Center. Of course this drop in popularity is partly home made. So there are concrete measures to enhance the image of China in the world, e.g. reduction of corruption, enhancement of the rule of law, reliability, trust, power control, self-criticism regarding own problems and mistakes and the taking over of as much responsibility for peace and stability in the world as much China represents one fourth of the world population and is among the two largest economies in the world.

Literature itself can contribute its share by delivering high quality literature. Although most of Chinese literature is below world literature quality since the 1930s, there are still a few works worth translating. Some contemporary writers, such as Mo Yan, Liu Cixin, Yan Lianke, Su Tong, and Yu Hua, have already gained some influence among Western readers, but many more writers are still obscure. On the whole, Chinese literature has not yet developed a stable profile with its own characteristics among Western readers.

Chinese authors could also enhance the quality of their literature by learning several languages and reading the literature of other countries in their original languages. In 1920's China, Chinese writers naturally spoke different languages and also participated in the cultural exchange and translated literature. Through this intense cultural exchange, also Lu Xun's short story "The True Story of Ah Q" was translated into French and supported by the French author Romand Rollain.

Among the literary categories, science fiction, children's literature and online literature are more popular among Western readers, including European readers, while works with strong political content are less popular. According to a study by Ariadne Consulting, the scale of overseas users of Chinese online literature has reached more than 80 million in 2020, which has a very strong appeal to Western readers.

在美国、欧洲和非洲，中国作为一个国家本身的受欢迎度不高，这也影响了中国近现代文学在全球的传播。尤其是在美国，根据皮尤研究中心(Pew Research Center)的数据，可以看到中国的受欢迎程度从2008年的42%欢迎和38%不欢迎下降到2020年的22%欢迎和73%不欢迎。这使中国近现代文学在西方的传播仍不容乐观。

中国国家在西方受欢迎程度的下降，除国际原因之外也有一部分国内原因。对此，也有一些具体的措施，例如持续减少腐败、加强法治、可信度和自我批评，提升对权力机制的监管，以及继续为世界和平稳定作出应有的贡献。

文坛自身也可以多多产出高质量文学作品。自20世纪30年代以来，中国文学有时受政治因素影响，但高质量作品仍然较为丰富。像莫言、刘慈欣、阎连科、苏童、余华等一些当代作家已经在西方读者中具有一定的影响力，但更多的作家则依旧面目模糊。从整体上来说，中国文学尚未在西方读者中形成具有自身特色的稳定面貌。中国作家可以多阅读其他国家的文学作品，达到取长补短、兼收并蓄的效果。例如在20世纪20年代的中国，中国作家如鲁迅就积极参与文化交流和翻译。通过这种激烈的文化交流，鲁迅的短篇小说《阿Q正传》被翻译成法文，并得到了法国作家罗曼•罗兰的支持。

在文学类别中，科幻小说、儿童文学以及网络文学是西方读者包括欧洲读者较为欢迎的，而政治性强的作品则不太受欢迎。据艾瑞咨询研究显示，2020年中国网络文学海外用户规模已达到八千万以上，对西方读者有非常强的吸引力。

==6. 你扎实的语言基本功和翻译水平使你的作品在欧美汉学界引起了广泛关注。你认为翻译中国近现代文学能为中西文化交流做出怎样的贡献？==

If we want to better the situation of cultural exchange and mutual understanding, we may reform the country to make it more popular. We also need to bring people together. To get to know someone from the other country often changes the attitude towards the country. This can start with school partnerships and end with city partnerships. Of course there also needs to be found a long term solution between China's self-chosen isolation due to the Zero-Covid strategy and the open world around China.

We can also catch the attention of foreign readers with other cultural phenomena, which are received favorably. For example, the blockbuster movies of the 5th generation Chinese film directors has extremely pushed the reception of Chinese works of literature. Red Sorghum, Ju Dou, Life etc. are all works of literature adapted to films.

Another way is to introduce Chinese food culture with films like "The Wedding Banquet" or "Eat, drink, man, women" or Chinese martial arts with "Crouching Tiger, hidden dragon".

Moreover, the best way to understand a people a country a culture is by reading its modern literature. Through the text, the author can lead the reader into his mind and engage the reader in the trajectory of his thoughts, so that the reader can understand China through the eyes of the Chinese and break down prejudices. For example, An Lezhe and Luo Siwen's attempt to find a way out from a comparative philosophical perspective in their interpretation of the ''Analects'' successfully transmits ancient Chinese philosophical thought to the English-speaking world. Also Yu Dan's ''Confucius from the Heart'' has helped to export Confucian ideas internationally.

如果我们想要改善文化交流和相互理解的状况，除了上面罗列的方法之外，我们还需要让人们团结起来。通常来说，当人们真正了解了来自一个国家的人，他们常常会改变对这个国家的态度。因此我们可以多多与其他国家内部建立学校伙伴关系和城市伙伴关系等。当然，由于中国现在采取“清零”战略，选择自我隔离，而中国周边世界已经开放，我们需要找到一个行之有效的解决方案。

我们也可以用其他文化方式来吸引外国读者的注意，这个方法很受欢迎。例如，中国第五代电影导演拍摄的大片极大地推动了西方对中国文学作品的接受，《红高粱》、《菊豆》、《人生》等都是改编成电影的文学作品。

我们还通过电影《婚宴》、《饮食男女》等来介绍中国的饮食文化，或者通过电影《卧虎藏龙》来介绍中国的武术。

翻译中国近现代文学能够丰富世界文学，中国近现代文学中有许多优秀作品。这些作品值得被世界人民所看到。

此外，了解一个民族一个国家一种文化的最好方式就是通过阅读它的近现代文学。通过文字，作者可以带领读者进入他的思想，让读者参与他的思想轨迹，使读者能够通过中国人的眼睛了解中国，打破偏见。比如安乐哲和罗思文对《论语》进行阐释时尝试从比较哲学角度寻找出路，成功地把中国古代哲学思想传到英语世界。于丹的《论语心得》也帮助了全球传播儒学的道理。

==7. 近现代东西方文学有何交流与相互影响？==

China and the West in modern times has been the Western missionaries who came to China, the foreign students, and the overseas Chinese who emigrated. Western missionaries introduced classical Chinese literature to the West, such as James Legge who was one of the first to publish the Chinese Classics in English, whose purpose was to introduce Eastern culture, philosophical thought and customs to Western readers.

Chinese scholars, such as Zhu Shenghao, were among the first Chinese translators of Shakespeare's works, Guo Moruo of Goethe's works, and the quality and style of their translations are recognized by Shakespearean researchers at home and abroad. The mutual exchange of Eastern and Western literature in modern times has not only promoted the development of Chinese literature, but also enriched world literature. The rich variety of Western literature provides more choices for Chinese reading, not only ''Romeo and Juliet'' love stories, but also anti-utopian literature like ''Animal Farm''. Chinese literature also brings something different to the West in terms of vision and experience. Based on his international readings, Mo Yan has created his vernacular works, which give Western readers a sense of the Chinese vernacular.

The exchange of literature is rising. Currently, we have a peak in German children literature licences going to China.

Also, more Chinese literature is translated into foreign languages, also due to the sponsorship program by the government.

However, printing books with money does not replace a missing market demand. Only if the market itself asks for Chinese books, Chinese literature will increase its worldwide presence. And if that happens, sponsorship is also not needed any more and could be reduced to the much smaller budgets of translation sponsorship we see in other countries.

近代以来中西文化交流的主力是来华的西方传教士、留学生和移民海外的华侨华人。
西方传教士把中国古典文学介绍到了西方，比如理雅各出版了《中国经典》的第一卷，其目的就是为了向西方读者介绍东方的文化、哲学思想和风土人情。

还有中国的有识之士如朱生豪是中国翻译莎士比亚作品较早的人之一，郭沫若是歌德作品最早翻译家之一，其译文质量和风格卓具特色，为国内外莎士比亚研究者所公认。

近现代东西方文学相互交流，不仅促进了中国文学的发展，而且还丰富了世界文学。西方文学种类丰富，为中国人阅读提供了更多选择，不仅有《罗密欧与朱丽叶》这样的爱情故事，也有《动物农场》之类的反乌托邦文学。中国文学也会给西方带来一些不一样的视野和体验。莫言在读获得诺贝尔文学奖的全球文学作品的基础上写了乡土作品，让西方读者真切感受到中国的乡土人情。

文学的交流正在上升。目前，我们有一个德国儿童文学许可证前往中国的高峰。

此外，更多的中国文学作品被翻译成外语，这也是由于政府的赞助计划。

然而，用钱印书并不能取代缺失的市场需求。只有当市场本身需要中国书籍时，中国文学才会增加其在全世界的影响力。如果这样，赞助也就不再需要了，可以减少到我们在其他国家看到的小得多的翻译赞助的预算。

=受访者简介：=

吴漠汀(Martin Woesler)，男，生于1969年，德国著名汉学家、欧洲科学院院士、欧盟让•莫内讲席教授，德国维藤大学研究院、曾任德国慕尼黑应用语言大学中文系主任、罗马第三大学讲席教授、美国由他谷大学副教授。2019年9月受聘湖南师范大学潇湘学者特聘教授。主要研究领域为《红楼梦》、比较文学、翻译、跨文化交流、中国现当代文学。他通晓德语、汉语、英语，先后翻译鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国作家的作品。他同史华慈（Rainer Schwarz)先生共同翻译完成的《红楼梦》,是《红楼梦》首部完整德文译本。荣获2020年度中国政府友谊奖。

参考资料

https://www.sohu.com/a/442142_106055

外国翻译家：中国当代文学在西方的处境如同沙漠
2014-10-30 12:13

在昨天举行的一场“汉学与当代中国”座谈会上，面对采访的几位国外翻译家表示对中国当代文学作品在国外的翻译出版很不乐观，他们毫不留情地用“太差了”、“沙漠”、“怪怪的”等来形容中国当代文学在西方的处境，令记者感到意外。

怎么了

俄罗斯曾经三年没出版一本中国当代文学书籍

俄罗斯圣彼得堡国立大学东方系常务副主任罗季奥诺夫很形象的控诉中国当代文学在俄罗斯的“惨状”：“与政治经济的热相比，中国文学在俄罗斯不能说是冷的，但至少是凉的。”罗季奥诺夫介绍，“翻译逆差明显，达到了20倍，俄罗斯的80后和90后根本就不知道当代中国文学是什么，他们只了解西方文学。”

据他统计，1990年到2005年这15年间，中国当代文学在俄罗斯一共只出版了8本书，平均两年一本，“简直是沙漠”，2005年到2008年因为有合作项目，出版了几本书，2008年金融危机后到2010年的3年间，一本书也没有，2011年出版了1本，才卖出去1000册，2012年好一点，出版了2本，一共卖出去8300册。

加拿大西门菲莎大学教授、汉学家Jan Walls痴迷中国文化，不但给自己起了个地道的中文名字王健，还会表演数来宝。“我注意到，2013年我们的作家门罗得了诺贝尔文学奖后，中国的出版社出版了9本她的小说，而2012年莫言得了诺奖后，却没有同等的待遇，加拿大并没有因为莫言得奖就多出版他的书。”王健说，加拿大的汉学家和翻译家不少，但有个共同的“毛病”，就是重视中国古典文学，轻视中国当代文学，包括他自己，作为叶嘉莹的学生，也更喜欢翻译古诗词。

西班牙马德里自治大学东亚研究中心主任、翻译家达西安娜·菲萨克，在上世纪80年代就翻译了大量的巴金、钱钟书等名家的作品到西班牙。她也直言中国当代文学在西班牙的境况不乐观。

为什么

中国当代作品的翻译连资深汉学家都发憷

对于中国当代文学作品不被国外接受的另外一个原因，是跨文化的翻译过程让作品失去了其魅力。土耳其安卡拉大学中文系主任欧凯带着几个中文流利的博士生来中国交流，他指了指自己的学生，“土耳其目前中国文学的大部分译者都是我的学生，我不应该这样直接批评我的学生，但我必须要说，翻译得太差了，很多错误。”

欧凯的手机里面存着许多张图书的图片，每一张里都有用红色笔圈出来的字句。欧凯向《北京晚报》记者展示这些他随时翻看的翻译作品，其中有铁凝的《永远有多远》，欧凯很喜欢铁凝的文字，“可是你看，这本书的名字就翻译错了，还有王刚的作品《英格力士》，书名直接翻译成《英语》了，这怎么能一样呢。”欧凯又翻到一本莫言的作品，其中的“八路”翻译成了“第八大道”：“他们不了解中国文化，不了解创作背后的含义，如果我是普通读者，到书店里拿起这样一本书翻一下，根本不会去买。”

这种翻译的困难有时也并不只是年轻的译者中文水平有限所致，而是中西文化差异过大。菲萨克告诉记者，尽管已经有三十年的翻译经验，但是在翻译当代作品时还是发憷：“翻译当代的文学作品有些困难，大部分都是通过英文和法文的译本再翻译成西班牙文。”这样就造成了二次转述中和原文更大的误差。她还提到，中国曾经组织了一批西班牙语好的外语人才，将中国作品翻译到西班牙。“我不认为这种做法可行，因为我看了书以后，觉得语言都是怪怪的，读者看过之后可能更觉得中国是个距离遥远的文化了。”

怎么办

这事儿需要政府牵引靠个人力量肯定不行

欧凯的建议很直接，希望土耳其政府和中国政府共同为翻译作品的质量把关。“政府必须介入，之前的翻译都是很个人的事情，喜欢哪本书，跟出版社说，就开始翻译，根本无法保证翻译的质量。”欧凯认为，可以成立一个委员会，监督和审查翻译的质量，为作品严格把关，“这件事情肯定要政府去做，靠个人的力量是不行的。”

罗季奥诺夫则提出了具体的建议，希望俄罗斯的孔子学院和中国作家协会合作推出翻译项目，“不但要翻译，更要推广，不是把书出版就行了，还要大力推广，比如莫言和余华这样一批有名气的中国作家，完全可以走商业宣传的方式。”罗季奥诺夫也敏感地提出，在翻译作品时要特别注意本土读者的接受程度：“我发现很多在中国特别受欢迎的作品，俄罗斯人很不喜欢，甚至还会反感，引起对于中国人的误解，挑选什么样的文学作品很关键。”

菲萨克一直以来担心的西班牙“缺少真正懂中文的人”的人才不足问题，随着2008年西班牙大学开始招收本科汉语专业的学生有了很大改变，可以寄希望于后辈：“目前已经培养了一批年轻的汉学家，真正在搞翻译，真正因为喜欢中国文学才会做这件事。”

同样为人才担心的加拿大学者王健也说，别看加拿大面积大，但是人口还不及云南省的人口，翻译人才就更少了。“现在有一个现象，是中国移民到加拿大，在大学继续学习中国文学的学者们，有这样一批中青年学者在从事翻译工作，都是自发的。”王健说。本报记者陈梦溪返回搜狐，查看更多

Interview by Wan Shuyuan 2022

2022-04-18T14:20:12Z

Back to [[JM]] page

Links to other interviews as background information: [[2021_Interview_with_Duan_Yuanyuan]], [[Longer_interview_version_dated_March_3_2021]], [[Interview_Univerlag_2022]].

Aim: Give guidance for the field, make some provocative but true statements. Reflect current discussions both in China and internationally. Refer to Web literature work by Chen Dingjia (CASS) and to "Intellectual History" by Chen Zhongyi.

'''汉学家吴漠汀：我为何翻译中国现当代文学?'''

近年来,随着中国作家屡在国际获奖，越来越多中国现当代作家的作品开始受到世界关注。德国汉学家吴漠汀翻译了鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国作家的众多作品。

中新社记者拟以“我为何翻译中国现当代文学?”为题，采访德国汉学家吴漠汀教授。

采访问题如下：

==1. 你不仅翻译了《红楼梦》德文版本，还先后翻译了鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国近现代作家的作品。你为何钟情于中国近现代文学？==

The main reason is, that from the perspective of world literature, Chinese literature is underrepresented in the world. Regarding the quality, the Qing Red Chamber Dreams in guanhua and Lu Xun's "The True Story of Ah Q" in early baihua were among the globally best pieces of literature of their time. In general, we can say that many works of Chinese literature of the 1920s was of a world leading high quality, also because the Chinese writers were in close exchange with the national literatures of the world.

Since 1930, when the League of Left Wing Writers was founded, Chinese authors changed from writing high quality literature for literature's sake to writing literature for political purpose, they voluntarily gave up quality and international compatibility. However, even under this environment, some excellent authors emerged like the ones I translated. So we still have a few works of excellent Chinese literature today. These works are worth to be translated and to made known to the world.

This is the more the case, since we have many more e.g. English, French, Spanish and German literature translated into Chinese than the other way round. One of the reasons why not much Chinese literature is translated into foreign languages is that China as a country ranks among the countries with the lowest popularity all around the world. A major reason for that is her corruption and autocratic system. If China can reform and open up more, also its culture will naturally become more popular all around the world.

Another reason why modern Chinese literature appeals to me is the local characteristics embedded in these works. For example, Mr. Jia Pingwa's works contain a large number of dialects, local traditions unique to his hometown, etc. His works are wonderful, but the amount of his works translated is much lower than the quality of his works deserves, because these parts are difficult to be translated into foreign languages. I think these distinctive cultures are also worth spreading, and I would be happy to translate such Chinese vernacular stories and bring them to the world.

Top Chinese literature of modern and contemporary times is extremely rich. Lu Xun has shaped the new vernacular. His whole life he was torn between the need he saw for political reform and his doubts, if literature can be effective in this respect. Among all international great writers, Lu Xun was the one who even stood above the Nobel Prize of Literature, when he declined to be listed as candidate for it. With Ah Q, Kong Yiji, The Madman's Diary, he wrote the internationally most advanced and modern literature of his time. Until today it is a desideratum to publish his Complete Works in English. I translated for example his essays on the book burning in Germany.

I also translated Yu Qiuyu's History of Calligraphy, which gives foreigners an in-depth inside into this important art and its role and position in Chinese cultural history, considering it the basis of all arts and as important as music, painting and literature.

Wang Meng has not only won the hearts of Chinese readers with his nostalgic revolution love story "Long live the Youth", but has also contributed a lot to the experimental development of the stream-of-consciousness style in literature. I have translated his short story "Hard Porridge" and his autobiographical book "China - Deciphered".

I very much enjoyed to translate Han Shaogong's works "Verblassender Mond über dem verlassenen Innenhof" (空院残月), which shows a dense atmosphere of 1930s China under Japanese occupation, and "Der Zorn des Buddha" (怒目金刚), which shows the stubborness of a rule breaker and also contains some supernatural elements.

Because of the life experience I share with Xu Zechen as student at Peking University, and therefore I felt very much at home when translating his "Ah Peking!".

Zhang Wei delivers both, on the one hand very intense descriptions of the struggle of men in nature and local sceneries with "Baummoos pflücken", "Meerwind", "Auf ins Maisfeld", "Fuchs und Wein", "Herbstzorn" und "Weintrauben im Herbstregen" and on the other hand the world of cadres between good intentions and the temptations of bribery with "Rette bitte den Künstler".

Although Han Han is better known as race driver and film regisseur, e.g. for the blockbuster "Four Seas", he is a successful and skilfull writer too, so I have translated his works "Three Gates", "Glorious Days", and "His Land". Compared to Guo Jingming, who is more celebrity than author, Han Han produces high quality literature, especially with his road novel "1988: I want to talk with the world", translated by Howard Goldblatt.

I also chose to translate Mian Mian's novel "Panda Sex" because I wanted to check, if it was really "rubbish literature" as it was once claimed by a critic. I visited her in Shanghai and discovered that her works are so authentic, because he mostly described her own life experience. The novel Panda Sex was composed with an experimental writing style: Only at the end of the novel, the reader understands that the recurring quotes in the novel are actual recordings, which Mian Mian took from philosophical talks at various parties in Shanghai.

In general, to support cultural attractiveness, the so-called "soft power" with "hard power" means, e.g. financial support, can backfire. The United States was long seen as a country where poor or criminal European immigrated to. It was a country of slavery and its racism was severe even until the 1970s. Since then, the United States have reformed and earned the trust of many other countries in the world. So without investing into soft power, it naturally became a soft superpower. People all over the world eat the unhealthy American fast food, simply because the United States has an attractiveness and people feel to be part of the "land of the free" or the "American dream" when they eat the food.

As I understand it, in 2000, the Chinese National People's Congress initially proposed a "go global" strategy. The Chinese government supports the export of Chinese culture financially especially since 2007. It also supports the translation of Chinese literature and propaganda books into foreign languages. In the beginning, the policy was not applied properly. The most funding was offered for propaganda books, and not from the perspective which works of literature and which fact books can be successful abroad. This practise has become better now. However, the sales figures of Chinese books abroad are still lowered because the partnering Chinese publishing houses make the final edit of the translations and have the final say how to design the covers. They often change the colors, take away the illustrations and eye-catching cover texts.

In this way, while many Chinese literary works have great potential for worldwide success, restrictions on how books look or are presented abroad sometimes undermine that potential. China still has a way to go in enhancing its own cultural appeal, and I hope that my translations will add to the effort to bring Chinese culture to the world.

主要是因为，从世界文学的角度来看，中国文学一直保持着良好的水平。即使是在20世纪30年代后中国政局和文坛动荡的艰难时刻，中国仍然出现了一些优秀的文学作品，所以我认为这些作品值得翻译，也值得向世界宣传。目前在世界范围内，其他语言，诸如英语，法语，西班牙语和德语作品翻译成中文的情况居多，而中文作品翻译成其他语言的情况较少，中文作品在世界上受欢迎程度不够高。在我看来，出现这种现象主要与中国的历史地位、中西方的文化差异、国际局势有一定关系。
中国近代文学吸引我的另一个原因在于这些作品中蕴含的地方特色。比如贾平凹先生的作品中就包含有大量的方言，他家乡特有的地方传统等等元素。他的作品非常精彩，但是被翻译量却无法反映远作品质量，可能就是因为这些部分很难被翻译成外语。我认为这些特色文化也值得传播，我也乐意将这样的中国乡土故事翻译出来，带给世界。
中国近现代顶级文学极为丰富，文学大家层出不穷。因此我选择翻译了大量近现代文学作品，有一些作家的作品我尤为感兴趣，因此对他们的作品关注较多：
鲁迅是近代以来白话写作的鼻祖。他的一生都因两件事而犹豫挣扎：他自知中国需要政治改革，却不知道文学能否在这方面发挥作用。在国际上所有伟大作家之中，鲁迅在拒绝被列为诺贝尔文学奖的候选人时，他的高度甚至超越了诺贝尔文学奖的地位。以《阿Q正传》《孔乙己》《狂人日记》为代表，他创作了当时国际上最先进的现代文学作品。直到今天，出版英文版的鲁迅全集仍迫在眉睫。例如，我本人就翻译了在德国比较热门的部分鲁迅文章。
我还翻译了余秋雨的《书法史》，这本书让外国人能够深入了解了书法这门重要的艺术及其在中国文化史上的地位和作用，让人能意识到书法是一切艺术的基础，与音乐、绘画、文学同等重要。
王蒙不仅以其怀旧的革命爱情小说《青春万岁》赢得了中国读者的心，而且为意识流文体在文学中的实验性发展做出了巨大贡献。我翻译过他的短篇小说《坚硬的稀粥》和他的自传#China - Deciphered#.
我非常喜欢翻译韩少功的作品《空院残月》，这本书显示出20世纪30年代以来中国深受日本影响的那种氛围。同时还有他的《怒目金刚》，这本书里展示出一位规则破坏者的固执，也包含一些超自然的元素。
我和徐则臣曾同在北大有过学习经历，所以在翻译他的《北上》时，我感到翻译得十分自在流畅。
张炜的书中阐述了两种情况，一种是用一些如"Baummoos pflücken", "Meerwind", "Auf ins Maisfeld", "Fuchs und Wein", "Herbstzorn" 以及"Weintrauben im Herbstregen" 这样的描写，情感强烈地描述了人类在自然和当地风景中的斗争，另一种则是用“Rette bitte den Künstler”这样的描述，写出了干部的世界在善意和贿赂的诱惑之间的挣扎。
虽然韩寒更出名的是赛车手和电影导演（比如他拍过电影大片《四海》），但他也是一个成功、技巧娴熟的作家。我翻译了他的作品《三门》《光辉岁月》和《他的土地》。不同于郭敬明，与其说郭敬明是作家，不如说他是社会名人。韩寒的文学作品质量很高，尤其是他的公路小说《1988:我想和世界说话》（由霍华德·戈德布拉特翻译）。
而我之所以选择翻译棉棉的小说《熊猫》，也是因为我想确认一下，它是否真的如一位评论家所说的那样是“垃圾文学”。于是我在上海拜访了她，一番了解后发现，她的作品是如此的真实，因为书中主要描述的是她自己的生活经历。小说《熊猫》使用的一种实验性的写作风格：直到小说结尾，读者才会发现小说中反复出现的引用其实是真实的录音，是棉棉在上海各种聚会上录下来的哲学谈话。
总的来说，在我看来，中国文学作品要更好地走向世界，应该努力提升自己的文化吸引力，在“软实力”以及“硬实力”方面下功夫。但我猜测提供财政支持以提升软实力，可能会适得其反。
据我了解，2000 年，中国人大就初步提出“走出去”战略。自2007年起，中国政府在财政上开始支持中国文化向外输出。中国政府还支持本国将中国文学类和外宣类书籍翻译成外文。起初，这项政策没能合理施行。大部分资金用于翻译外宣类书籍，而非用于翻译本可在国外市场成功流通的文学作品以及纪实作品。虽然目前这项政策的施行效果有所好转，中国图书在海外的销量仍然未达到最理想效果。这其中的一个重要原因是因为合作的中国出版社拥有翻译的最终编辑权，以及封面设计的最终决定权。中国出版社有时候会更改书籍封面的颜色，插图和吸睛的腰封文字。这样一来，尽管许多中国文学作品有在世界范围内获得成功的巨大潜力，但对书籍的外观或在国外呈现的方式进行限制，有时会破坏这种潜力。中国在提升自身文化吸引力上，还有一段路要走，我也希望我的翻译能够为中国文化走向世界添一份力。

==2. 中国近现代文学的魅力何在？翻译近现代文学如何加深了你对中国的了解？==

Modern and contemporary literature is one of the best ways to understand a country and a culture. Authors have the ability to drag readers into their thoughts, to let them participate in their line of thoughts and let them look at China through Chinese eyes.

In modern Chinese literature one can see the sparks of ancient literature colliding with foreign literature. Lu Xun, for example, is not only a famous Chinese writer, thinker and revolutionary; in the process of translating Lu Xun's works, take ''Call to the Arms'' (Nahan) as an example, this work truly depicts the social life from the Xinhai Revolution to the May Fourth period, revealing the deep-seated contradictions, profoundly analyzing and attacking the old Chinese system and stereotypes, which provides readers with a new perspective to This provides readers with a new perspective to better understand the culture and characteristics of modern China. On the other hand, with the passage of time, new generations of authors have emerged in the literary world, such as the "post-80s" literature, describing the authors born after 1980. Especially after 2000, the "post-80s" writing, mainly youth literature, has achieved a brilliant success in the literary market.

Han Han is one of the more famous post-80s literary writers. In translating Han Han's "Triple Door", I learned that Han Han is full of wisdom, he uses his own unique narrative to express his understanding of the world, and when he finds himself in tension with the world, he is able to give a clever way to solve it. Han Han uses a humoristic critical surrealism to describe phenomena of contemporary Chinese society. Difficult for the translator is, that Han Han often uses traditional proverbs and then interpretes them not by their allegoric, but by their true meaning and creates a twist in the story line. Since the proverbs have different meanings in the target culture, it takes a long time to find solutions for these frequent turning points in Han Han's stories.

The works of Han Han and Lu Xun both reflect to a certain extent their different understanding of the times, and they have their own different views on different times, and when they reflect their thoughts on the times in their books, this in itself is a way to show their charm. The views of the authors of different eras have the characteristics of the people of different eras, and in understanding their thoughts and works is also the way one can understand China step by step.

中国近现代文学是理解中国及其中国文化本身最好的方式。作家能够让读者明白他们的想法，并且让读者们参与到他们的想法中来，让他们以中国的视野来观看中国。中国近现代文学中能够看到古代文学与外国文学碰撞产生的火花。比如鲁迅，他不仅是中国著名的文学家、思想家、革命家；在对鲁迅的作品进行翻译的过程中，拿《呐喊》为例，这部作品真实描绘了从辛亥革命到五四时期的社会生活，揭示了种种深层次矛盾，对中国旧有制度以及陈腐的传统观念进行了深刻的剖析与抨击，这给读者提供了一个新的角度来更好的了解中国近现代的文化与时代特点。另一方面，随着时间的流逝，一些新兴文学登上了文学界，比如“80后”文学。“80后”写作是新世纪之初中国最重要的文化现象。2000年以后，以青春文学为主体的“80后”写作在文学市场取得了辉煌的胜利。而韩寒则是“80后”文学写作中较有名气的一位。在对韩寒《三重门》进行翻译时，我了解到韩寒充满了智慧，他用自己独特的叙述方式将他对世界的理解表达出来，另外，当他发现自己与世界的紧张关系时，他能够给予一种巧妙的方法进行解决。韩寒与鲁迅的作品都在一定程度上能够反应他们对于时代不同的理解，对于不同的时代，他们有着自己不同的看法，而当他们将自己对时代的思考在书中体现出来时，这本身就是一种魅力展现的方式。不同时代作者的看法都具备了不同时代人的特性，在了解他们思想以及作品的时候也就是读者一步一步了解中国的办法。

==3. 很多文学作品在跨文化的翻译过程中，会让作品失去原本的魅力。那么，你在翻译中国近现代文学作品时，是如何克服翻译瓶颈的？和翻译中国古典文学有何不同之处？==

It is not true, that works of literature lose their original attraction when translated into a different language. That is a prejudice. Almost all literature we read today is translated literature. If you do not translate, you only have national literatures read by local people. If you want to win the nobel prize of literature, you need to be translated at least into English, and best also into Swedish.

Every original has its specific attraction. It can be low or high. If it may be of high attraction to foreign readers - which is not always the same as to be attractive to local readers - then it is worth to be translated. When you translate, you can either make it more attractive or less attractive. This depends on a lot of factors. One is, that you need to understand and appreciate the original fully. Many Chinese readers also cannot understand and appreciate a work fully. So the ideal translator is a foreigner, who has lived in China for several years. There are almost only native speakers of the target language, who produce successful translations in the literary field. The same is true for foreign literature: If it wants to be successful in the Chinese literary market, it needs to be translated by a Chinese translator. An even more ideal translator would be an author by her or himself. So the best poetry translation is done by poets who translated into their own language.

In the education process of translators, they are told that they should master the foreign language as well as their own language. But this is not possible except for people who grew up truly bilingual. Therefore, one should translate into one's own language in order to achieve the best success.

我认为这是一种偏见，实际上文学作品在跨文化的翻译过程中，并不会失去其原本的魅力。今天我们阅读的文学作品几乎全部都是文学译作。如果我们不把文学作品翻译成其他文字，那么我们国家的文学作品只会拥有本土读者；如果我们想要让作品走出去，最好获取诺贝尔文学奖，那就至少得把文学作品翻译成英文，当然最好还要译成瑞典语。
每一部文学作品都拥有或多或少的独特魅力。倘若一部文学作品在外国读者看来是极具魅力的，而本国读者却意见相左，我们把它译成外国文字则是一件很有意义的事情。但是我们在翻译文学作品的时候切忌改变其原本的魅力，既不能增加一分，也不能减少一分。要做到这一点需要考虑许多因素，一个就是我们必须对该文学作品有充分的理解和鉴赏。倘若本土读者对某些国内作品也无法充分地理解和鉴赏，那么翻译该作品的最佳译者可以是那些旅居该国多年的外国译者。通常成功的文学作品翻译大多是由译作语言为母语的译者来完成的，外国文学作品的翻译也同样如此。如果一部外国文学作品想要在中国文学市场取得成功，有必要请一位中国译者来翻译该作品。如果这位译者本人还是一位作者，那是最理想的情况了。这就不难理解为什么最好的诗歌翻译都是由那些译语为母语的诗人完成的。
在译者学习翻译的过程中，往往要求他们必须熟练掌握一门外语，其熟练程度等同于其母语。这一点除了那些从小在双语环境里成长的并列双语者可能实现，对于其他人几乎是不切实际的。因此，译者往往是将外国作品翻译成自己的母语时才能取得更大的成就。

==4. 过去很长一段时期，西方对中国古典文学研究较多，而对现当代文学的翻译和研究较少。曾有外国翻译家直言：“中国当代文学在西方的处境如同沙漠。”这一现象背后的原因是什么？==

Of course the world is a desert, when it comes to Chinese literature. And this is unfair, because there are actually works of literature with a high quality in China.

In Germany, non-German literature accounts for 12,5% of literature, but Chinese literature only for 0,3% of literature. However, before I engaged in translation, we had 11 Chinese literary books per year being translated into German. With my engagement, this figure has roughly doubled. How did I achieve this? I gathered a group of young sinologists in Germany, who all joined into a translators workshop. In this workshop, we now translate about 10 books from Chinese into German, most of it works of literature. With this output, we have doubled the number of books translated from Chinese into German since more than a decade now.

The reason behind the desert phenomenon is, that Chinese literature is only as popular as the country is seen by the international community. The worldwide market for Russian literature broke down since end of February 2022, and at the same time the worldwide market for Ukrainian literature has skyrocketed. Since there was no change in quality, we can see from that that there are foreign perceptions and the image of a country, which plays into it. The easiest way for Chinese literature to become celebrated around the world would be to become a country, which is even more clean and even more free than today.

因此我给自己定了一个目标：将更多的中国文学作品翻译成我的母语——德语。我在德国召集了一些年轻的汉学家加入到一个翻译工作室，一起从事翻译工作。我们目前已经完成了10本中文作品的德语翻译，其中大部分是文学作品。因为我们的努力使中国书籍德译数量同十年前比翻了一番。
造成文学“沙漠化现象”的原因则是：文学作品的受欢迎程度与该国在世界的受欢迎程度相关。从2022年2月底开始，俄罗斯文学的全球市场已经崩溃，而与此同时我们发现乌克兰文学的全球市场却迅猛增长。我们可以看到两国文学作品的质量并没有发生任何变化，是外国对于两国的看法以及国家自身的形象左右了其文学作品的受欢迎度。让中国文学作品誉满全球的最简单的办法就是中国政府进一步加强环境保护和人权保障工作。
其次因为各个国家的意识形态不同，难免会使中国当代文学在国外出现接受难或者认知偏差的情况。我想指出的是无论是哪国的文学作品，如果遭遇过度意识形态化、过度政治化的解读、阐释与译介，其文学性与诗学价值很可能会大打折扣甚至完全被遮蔽。
文化心态与接受心态因素：文化输入和文化输出国地位的对比会影响目标文化的输入意愿从而左右文化输出的成效。文化接受的不均衡性必然导致文化接受语境以及读者接受心态的不均衡现象，而文化层面的“傲慢”与“偏见”会影响翻译作品和翻译策略的选择，进一步影响到作品的传播。因而中国文学作品倘若需要走出去，首先参加这个交流的人必须充分准确地认识自己的文化，同时也充分了解接收国的文化。
翻译副文本因素：副文本即解读文本，是文本的重要构建形态，译作前言是构成副文本的重要组成部分。译者通过前言介绍作品的创作者、评价其作品、指导读者了解作品艺术特色及解读作品。中国出版商往往会将我译作的前言部分略去，这样会影响外国读者对该作品的了解，使中国文学作品在海外传播出现接受障碍。
五是对国外目标读者群体的研究不够深入会影响其对于中国当代文学作品的认知和接受程度。

==5. 近年来，中国近现代文学在西方“遇冷”的现象有所改变吗？目前的接受程度如何？哪些类型的中国近现代文学更容易吸引欧洲读者？==

There is the underlying problem of the popularity of China as a country in general in the eyes of people in America, Europe, and Africa. Especially in the United States we have seen a drop in popularity of China from 42% pro and 38% contra in 2008 to 22% pro and 73% contra in 2020 according to the Pew Research Center. Of course this drop in popularity is partly home made. So there are concrete measures to enhance the image of China in the world, e.g. reduction of corruption, enhancement of the rule of law, reliability, trust, power control, self-criticism regarding own problems and mistakes and the taking over of as much responsibility for peace and stability in the world as much China represents one fourth of the world population and is among the two largest economies in the world.

Literature itself can contribute its share by delivering high quality literature. Although most of Chinese literature is below world literature quality since the 1930s, there are still a few works worth translating. Some contemporary writers, such as Mo Yan, Liu Cixin, Yan Lianke, Su Tong, and Yu Hua, have already gained some influence among Western readers, but many more writers are still obscure. On the whole, Chinese literature has not yet developed a stable profile with its own characteristics among Western readers.

Chinese authors could also enhance the quality of their literature by learning several languages and reading the literature of other countries in their original languages. In 1920's China, Chinese writers naturally spoke different languages and also participated in the cultural exchange and translated literature. Through this intense cultural exchange, also Lu Xun's short story "The True Story of Ah Q" was translated into French and supported by the French author Romand Rollain.

Among the literary categories, science fiction, children's literature and online literature are more popular among Western readers, including European readers, while works with strong political content are less popular. According to a study by Ariadne Consulting, the scale of overseas users of Chinese online literature has reached more than 80 million in 2020, which has a very strong appeal to Western readers.

在美国、欧洲和非洲，中国作为一个国家本身的受欢迎度不高，这也影响了中国近现代文学在全球的传播。尤其是在美国，根据皮尤研究中心(Pew Research Center)的数据，可以看到中国的受欢迎程度从2008年的42%欢迎和38%不欢迎下降到2020年的22%欢迎和73%不欢迎。这使中国近现代文学在西方的传播仍不容乐观。

中国国家在西方受欢迎程度的下降，除国际原因之外也有一部分国内原因。对此，也有一些具体的措施，例如持续减少腐败、加强法治、可信度和自我批评，提升对权力机制的监管，以及继续为世界和平稳定作出应有的贡献。

文坛自身也可以多多产出高质量文学作品。自20世纪30年代以来，中国文学有时受政治因素影响，但高质量作品仍然较为丰富。像莫言、刘慈欣、阎连科、苏童、余华等一些当代作家已经在西方读者中具有一定的影响力，但更多的作家则依旧面目模糊。从整体上来说，中国文学尚未在西方读者中形成具有自身特色的稳定面貌。中国作家可以多阅读其他国家的文学作品，达到取长补短、兼收并蓄的效果。例如在20世纪20年代的中国，中国作家如鲁迅就积极参与文化交流和翻译。通过这种激烈的文化交流，鲁迅的短篇小说《阿Q正传》被翻译成法文，并得到了法国作家罗曼•罗兰的支持。

在文学类别中，科幻小说、儿童文学以及网络文学是西方读者包括欧洲读者较为欢迎的，而政治性强的作品则不太受欢迎。据艾瑞咨询研究显示，2020年中国网络文学海外用户规模已达到八千万以上，对西方读者有非常强的吸引力。

==6. 你扎实的语言基本功和翻译水平使你的作品在欧美汉学界引起了广泛关注。你认为翻译中国近现代文学能为中西文化交流做出怎样的贡献？==

If we want to better the situation of cultural exchange and mutual understanding, we may reform the country to make it more popular. We also need to bring people together. To get to know someone from the other country often changes the attitude towards the country. This can start with school partnerships and end with city partnerships. Of course there also needs to be found a long term solution between China's self-chosen isolation due to the Zero-Covid strategy and the open world around China.

We can also catch the attention of foreign readers with other cultural phenomena, which are received favorably. For example, the blockbuster movies of the 5th generation Chinese film directors has extremely pushed the reception of Chinese works of literature. Red Sorghum, Ju Dou, Life etc. are all works of literature adapted to films.

Another way is to introduce Chinese food culture with films like "The Wedding Banquet" or "Eat, drink, man, women" or Chinese martial arts with "Crouching Tiger, hidden dragon".

Moreover, the best way to understand a people a country a culture is by reading its modern literature. Through the text, the author can lead the reader into his mind and engage the reader in the trajectory of his thoughts, so that the reader can understand China through the eyes of the Chinese and break down prejudices. For example, An Lezhe and Luo Siwen's attempt to find a way out from a comparative philosophical perspective in their interpretation of the ''Analects'' successfully transmits ancient Chinese philosophical thought to the English-speaking world. Also Yu Dan's ''Confucius from the Heart'' has helped to export Confucian ideas internationally.

如果我们想要改善文化交流和相互理解的状况，除了上面罗列的方法之外，我们还需要让人们团结起来。通常来说，当人们真正了解了来自一个国家的人，他们常常会改变对这个国家的态度。因此我们可以多多与其他国家内部建立学校伙伴关系和城市伙伴关系等。当然，由于中国现在采取“清零”战略，选择自我隔离，而中国周边世界已经开放，我们需要找到一个行之有效的解决方案。

我们也可以用其他文化方式来吸引外国读者的注意，这个方法很受欢迎。例如，中国第五代电影导演拍摄的大片极大地推动了西方对中国文学作品的接受，《红高粱》、《菊豆》、《人生》等都是改编成电影的文学作品。

我们还通过电影《婚宴》、《饮食男女》等来介绍中国的饮食文化，或者通过电影《卧虎藏龙》来介绍中国的武术。

翻译中国近现代文学能够丰富世界文学，中国近现代文学中有许多优秀作品。这些作品值得被世界人民所看到。

此外，了解一个民族一个国家一种文化的最好方式就是通过阅读它的近现代文学。通过文字，作者可以带领读者进入他的思想，让读者参与他的思想轨迹，使读者能够通过中国人的眼睛了解中国，打破偏见。比如安乐哲和罗思文对《论语》进行阐释时尝试从比较哲学角度寻找出路，成功地把中国古代哲学思想传到英语世界。于丹的《论语心得》也帮助了全球传播儒学的道理。

==7. 近现代东西方文学有何交流与相互影响？==

China and the West in modern times has been the Western missionaries who came to China, the foreign students, and the overseas Chinese who emigrated. Western missionaries introduced classical Chinese literature to the West, such as James Legge who was one of the first to publish the Chinese Classics in English, whose purpose was to introduce Eastern culture, philosophical thought and customs to Western readers.

Chinese scholars, such as Zhu Shenghao, were among the first Chinese translators of Shakespeare's works, Guo Moruo of Goethe's works, and the quality and style of their translations are recognized by Shakespearean researchers at home and abroad. The mutual exchange of Eastern and Western literature in modern times has not only promoted the development of Chinese literature, but also enriched world literature. The rich variety of Western literature provides more choices for Chinese reading, not only ''Romeo and Juliet'' love stories, but also anti-utopian literature like ''Animal Farm''. Chinese literature also brings something different to the West in terms of vision and experience. Based on his international readings, Mo Yan has created his vernacular works, which give Western readers a sense of the Chinese vernacular.

The exchange of literature is rising. Currently, we have a peak in German children literature licences going to China.

Also, more Chinese literature is translated into foreign languages, also due to the sponsorship program by the government.

However, printing books with money does not replace a missing market demand. Only if the market itself asks for Chinese books, Chinese literature will increase its worldwide presence. And if that happens, sponsorship is also not needed any more and could be reduced to the much smaller budgets of translation sponsorship we see in other countries.

近代以来中西文化交流的主力是来华的西方传教士、留学生和移民海外的华侨华人。
西方传教士把中国古典文学介绍到了西方，比如理雅各出版了《中国经典》的第一卷，其目的就是为了向西方读者介绍东方的文化、哲学思想和风土人情。

还有中国的有识之士如朱生豪是中国翻译莎士比亚作品较早的人之一，郭沫若是歌德作品最早翻译家之一，其译文质量和风格卓具特色，为国内外莎士比亚研究者所公认。

近现代东西方文学相互交流，不仅促进了中国文学的发展，而且还丰富了世界文学。西方文学种类丰富，为中国人阅读提供了更多选择，不仅有《罗密欧与朱丽叶》这样的爱情故事，也有《动物农场》之类的反乌托邦文学。中国文学也会给西方带来一些不一样的视野和体验。莫言在读获得诺贝尔文学奖的全球文学作品的基础上写了乡土作品，让西方读者真切感受到中国的乡土人情。

文学的交流正在上升。目前，我们有一个德国儿童文学许可证前往中国的高峰。

此外，更多的中国文学作品被翻译成外语，这也是由于政府的赞助计划。

然而，用钱印书并不能取代缺失的市场需求。只有当市场本身需要中国书籍时，中国文学才会增加其在全世界的影响力。如果这样，赞助也就不再需要了，可以减少到我们在其他国家看到的小得多的翻译赞助的预算。

=受访者简介：=

吴漠汀(Martin Woesler)，男，生于1969年，德国著名汉学家、欧洲科学院院士、欧盟让•莫内讲席教授，德国维藤大学研究院、曾任德国慕尼黑应用语言大学中文系主任、罗马第三大学讲席教授、美国由他谷大学副教授。2019年9月受聘湖南师范大学潇湘学者特聘教授。主要研究领域为《红楼梦》、比较文学、翻译、跨文化交流、中国现当代文学。他通晓德语、汉语、英语，先后翻译鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国作家的作品。他同史华慈（Rainer Schwarz)先生共同翻译完成的《红楼梦》,是《红楼梦》首部完整德文译本。荣获2020年度中国政府友谊奖。

参考资料

https://www.sohu.com/a/442142_106055

外国翻译家：中国当代文学在西方的处境如同沙漠
2014-10-30 12:13

在昨天举行的一场“汉学与当代中国”座谈会上，面对采访的几位国外翻译家表示对中国当代文学作品在国外的翻译出版很不乐观，他们毫不留情地用“太差了”、“沙漠”、“怪怪的”等来形容中国当代文学在西方的处境，令记者感到意外。

怎么了

俄罗斯曾经三年没出版一本中国当代文学书籍

俄罗斯圣彼得堡国立大学东方系常务副主任罗季奥诺夫很形象的控诉中国当代文学在俄罗斯的“惨状”：“与政治经济的热相比，中国文学在俄罗斯不能说是冷的，但至少是凉的。”罗季奥诺夫介绍，“翻译逆差明显，达到了20倍，俄罗斯的80后和90后根本就不知道当代中国文学是什么，他们只了解西方文学。”

据他统计，1990年到2005年这15年间，中国当代文学在俄罗斯一共只出版了8本书，平均两年一本，“简直是沙漠”，2005年到2008年因为有合作项目，出版了几本书，2008年金融危机后到2010年的3年间，一本书也没有，2011年出版了1本，才卖出去1000册，2012年好一点，出版了2本，一共卖出去8300册。

加拿大西门菲莎大学教授、汉学家Jan Walls痴迷中国文化，不但给自己起了个地道的中文名字王健，还会表演数来宝。“我注意到，2013年我们的作家门罗得了诺贝尔文学奖后，中国的出版社出版了9本她的小说，而2012年莫言得了诺奖后，却没有同等的待遇，加拿大并没有因为莫言得奖就多出版他的书。”王健说，加拿大的汉学家和翻译家不少，但有个共同的“毛病”，就是重视中国古典文学，轻视中国当代文学，包括他自己，作为叶嘉莹的学生，也更喜欢翻译古诗词。

西班牙马德里自治大学东亚研究中心主任、翻译家达西安娜·菲萨克，在上世纪80年代就翻译了大量的巴金、钱钟书等名家的作品到西班牙。她也直言中国当代文学在西班牙的境况不乐观。

为什么

中国当代作品的翻译连资深汉学家都发憷

对于中国当代文学作品不被国外接受的另外一个原因，是跨文化的翻译过程让作品失去了其魅力。土耳其安卡拉大学中文系主任欧凯带着几个中文流利的博士生来中国交流，他指了指自己的学生，“土耳其目前中国文学的大部分译者都是我的学生，我不应该这样直接批评我的学生，但我必须要说，翻译得太差了，很多错误。”

欧凯的手机里面存着许多张图书的图片，每一张里都有用红色笔圈出来的字句。欧凯向《北京晚报》记者展示这些他随时翻看的翻译作品，其中有铁凝的《永远有多远》，欧凯很喜欢铁凝的文字，“可是你看，这本书的名字就翻译错了，还有王刚的作品《英格力士》，书名直接翻译成《英语》了，这怎么能一样呢。”欧凯又翻到一本莫言的作品，其中的“八路”翻译成了“第八大道”：“他们不了解中国文化，不了解创作背后的含义，如果我是普通读者，到书店里拿起这样一本书翻一下，根本不会去买。”

这种翻译的困难有时也并不只是年轻的译者中文水平有限所致，而是中西文化差异过大。菲萨克告诉记者，尽管已经有三十年的翻译经验，但是在翻译当代作品时还是发憷：“翻译当代的文学作品有些困难，大部分都是通过英文和法文的译本再翻译成西班牙文。”这样就造成了二次转述中和原文更大的误差。她还提到，中国曾经组织了一批西班牙语好的外语人才，将中国作品翻译到西班牙。“我不认为这种做法可行，因为我看了书以后，觉得语言都是怪怪的，读者看过之后可能更觉得中国是个距离遥远的文化了。”

怎么办

这事儿需要政府牵引靠个人力量肯定不行

欧凯的建议很直接，希望土耳其政府和中国政府共同为翻译作品的质量把关。“政府必须介入，之前的翻译都是很个人的事情，喜欢哪本书，跟出版社说，就开始翻译，根本无法保证翻译的质量。”欧凯认为，可以成立一个委员会，监督和审查翻译的质量，为作品严格把关，“这件事情肯定要政府去做，靠个人的力量是不行的。”

罗季奥诺夫则提出了具体的建议，希望俄罗斯的孔子学院和中国作家协会合作推出翻译项目，“不但要翻译，更要推广，不是把书出版就行了，还要大力推广，比如莫言和余华这样一批有名气的中国作家，完全可以走商业宣传的方式。”罗季奥诺夫也敏感地提出，在翻译作品时要特别注意本土读者的接受程度：“我发现很多在中国特别受欢迎的作品，俄罗斯人很不喜欢，甚至还会反感，引起对于中国人的误解，挑选什么样的文学作品很关键。”

菲萨克一直以来担心的西班牙“缺少真正懂中文的人”的人才不足问题，随着2008年西班牙大学开始招收本科汉语专业的学生有了很大改变，可以寄希望于后辈：“目前已经培养了一批年轻的汉学家，真正在搞翻译，真正因为喜欢中国文学才会做这件事。”

同样为人才担心的加拿大学者王健也说，别看加拿大面积大，但是人口还不及云南省的人口，翻译人才就更少了。“现在有一个现象，是中国移民到加拿大，在大学继续学习中国文学的学者们，有这样一批中青年学者在从事翻译工作，都是自发的。”王健说。本报记者陈梦溪返回搜狐，查看更多

Interview by Wan Shuyuan 2022

2022-04-18T14:17:12Z

Back to [[JM]] page

Links to other interviews as background information: [[2021_Interview_with_Duan_Yuanyuan]], [[Longer_interview_version_dated_March_3_2021]], [[Interview_Univerlag_2022]].

Aim: Give guidance for the field, make some provocative but true statements. Reflect current discussions both in China and internationally. Refer to Web literature work by Chen Dingjia (CASS) and to "Intellectual History" by Chen Zhongyi.

'''汉学家吴漠汀：我为何翻译中国现当代文学?'''

近年来,随着中国作家屡在国际获奖，越来越多中国现当代作家的作品开始受到世界关注。德国汉学家吴漠汀翻译了鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国作家的众多作品。

中新社记者拟以“我为何翻译中国现当代文学?”为题，采访德国汉学家吴漠汀教授。

采访问题如下：

==1. 你不仅翻译了《红楼梦》德文版本，还先后翻译了鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国近现代作家的作品。你为何钟情于中国近现代文学？==

The main reason is, that from the perspective of world literature, Chinese literature is underrepresented in the world. Regarding the quality, the Qing Red Chamber Dreams in guanhua and Lu Xun's "The True Story of Ah Q" in early baihua were among the globally best pieces of literature of their time. In general, we can say that many works of Chinese literature of the 1920s was of a world leading high quality, also because the Chinese writers were in close exchange with the national literatures of the world.

Since 1930, when the League of Left Wing Writers was founded, Chinese authors changed from writing high quality literature for literature's sake to writing literature for political purpose, they voluntarily gave up quality and international compatibility. However, even under this environment, some excellent authors emerged like the ones I translated. So we still have a few works of excellent Chinese literature today. These works are worth to be translated and to made known to the world.

This is the more the case, since we have many more e.g. English, French, Spanish and German literature translated into Chinese than the other way round. One of the reasons why not much Chinese literature is translated into foreign languages is that China as a country ranks among the countries with the lowest popularity all around the world. A major reason for that is her corruption and autocratic system. If China can reform and open up more, also its culture will naturally become more popular all around the world.

Another reason why modern Chinese literature appeals to me is the local characteristics embedded in these works. For example, Mr. Jia Pingwa's works contain a large number of dialects, local traditions unique to his hometown, etc. His works are wonderful, but the amount of his works translated is much lower than the quality of his works deserves, because these parts are difficult to be translated into foreign languages. I think these distinctive cultures are also worth spreading, and I would be happy to translate such Chinese vernacular stories and bring them to the world.

Top Chinese literature of modern and contemporary times is extremely rich. Lu Xun has shaped the new vernacular. His whole life he was torn between the need he saw for political reform and his doubts, if literature can be effective in this respect. Among all international great writers, Lu Xun was the one who even stood above the Nobel Prize of Literature, when he declined to be listed as candidate for it. With Ah Q, Kong Yiji, The Madman's Diary, he wrote the internationally most advanced and modern literature of his time. Until today it is a desideratum to publish his Complete Works in English. I translated for example his essays on the book burning in Germany.

I also translated Yu Qiuyu's History of Calligraphy, which gives foreigners an in-depth inside into this important art and its role and position in Chinese cultural history, considering it the basis of all arts and as important as music, painting and literature.

Wang Meng has not only won the hearts of Chinese readers with his nostalgic revolution love story "Long live the Youth", but has also contributed a lot to the experimental development of the stream-of-consciousness style in literature. I have translated his short story "Hard Porridge" and his autobiographical book "China - Deciphered".

I very much enjoyed to translate Han Shaogong's works "Verblassender Mond über dem verlassenen Innenhof" (空院残月), which shows a dense atmosphere of 1930s China under Japanese occupation, and "Der Zorn des Buddha" (怒目金刚), which shows the stubborness of a rule breaker and also contains some supernatural elements.

Because of the life experience I share with Xu Zechen as student at Peking University, and therefore I felt very much at home when translating his "Ah Peking!".

Zhang Wei delivers both, on the one hand very intense descriptions of the struggle of men in nature and local sceneries with "Baummoos pflücken", "Meerwind", "Auf ins Maisfeld", "Fuchs und Wein", "Herbstzorn" und "Weintrauben im Herbstregen" and on the other hand the world of cadres between good intentions and the temptations of bribery with "Rette bitte den Künstler".

Although Han Han is better known as race driver and film regisseur, e.g. for the blockbuster "Four Seas", he is a successful and skilfull writer too, so I have translated his works "Three Gates", "Glorious Days", and "His Land". Compared to Guo Jingming, who is more celebrity than author, Han Han produces high quality literature, especially with his road novel "1988: I want to talk with the world", translated by Howard Goldblatt.

I also chose to translate Mian Mian's novel "Panda Sex" because I wanted to check, if it was really "rubbish literature" as it was once claimed by a critic. I visited her in Shanghai and discovered that her works are so authentic, because he mostly described her own life experience. The novel Panda Sex was composed with an experimental writing style: Only at the end of the novel, the reader understands that the recurring quotes in the novel are actual recordings, which Mian Mian took from philosophical talks at various parties in Shanghai.

In general, to support cultural attractiveness, the so-called "soft power" with "hard power" means, e.g. financial support, can backfire. The United States was long seen as a country where poor or criminal European immigrated to. It was a country of slavery and its racism was severe even until the 1970s. Since then, the United States have reformed and earned the trust of many other countries in the world. So without investing into soft power, it naturally became a soft superpower. People all over the world eat the unhealthy American fast food, simply because the United States has an attractiveness and people feel to be part of the "land of the free" or the "American dream" when they eat the food.

As I understand it, in 2000, the Chinese National People's Congress initially proposed a "go global" strategy. The Chinese government supports the export of Chinese culture financially especially since 2007. It also supports the translation of Chinese literature and propaganda books into foreign languages. In the beginning, the policy was not applied properly. The most funding was offered for propaganda books, and not from the perspective which works of literature and which fact books can be successful abroad. This practise has become better now. However, the sales figures of Chinese books abroad are still lowered because the partnering Chinese publishing houses make the final edit of the translations and have the final say how to design the covers. They often change the colors, take away the illustrations and eye-catching cover texts.

In this way, while many Chinese literary works have great potential for worldwide success, restrictions on how books look or are presented abroad sometimes undermine that potential. China still has a way to go in enhancing its own cultural appeal, and I hope that my translations will add to the effort to bring Chinese culture to the world.

主要是因为，从世界文学的角度来看，中国文学一直保持着良好的水平。即使是在20世纪30年代后中国政局和文坛动荡的艰难时刻，中国仍然出现了一些优秀的文学作品，所以我认为这些作品值得翻译，也值得向世界宣传。目前在世界范围内，其他语言，诸如英语，法语，西班牙语和德语作品翻译成中文的情况居多，而中文作品翻译成其他语言的情况较少，中文作品在世界上受欢迎程度不够高。在我看来，出现这种现象主要与中国的历史地位、中西方的文化差异、国际局势有一定关系。
中国近代文学吸引我的另一个原因在于这些作品中蕴含的地方特色。比如贾平凹先生的作品中就包含有大量的方言，他家乡特有的地方传统等等元素。他的作品非常精彩，但是被翻译量却无法反映远作品质量，可能就是因为这些部分很难被翻译成外语。我认为这些特色文化也值得传播，我也乐意将这样的中国乡土故事翻译出来，带给世界。
中国近现代顶级文学极为丰富，文学大家层出不穷。因此我选择翻译了大量近现代文学作品，有一些作家的作品我尤为感兴趣，因此对他们的作品关注较多：
鲁迅是近代以来白话写作的鼻祖。他的一生都因两件事而犹豫挣扎：他自知中国需要政治改革，却不知道文学能否在这方面发挥作用。在国际上所有伟大作家之中，鲁迅在拒绝被列为诺贝尔文学奖的候选人时，他的高度甚至超越了诺贝尔文学奖的地位。以《阿Q正传》《孔乙己》《狂人日记》为代表，他创作了当时国际上最先进的现代文学作品。直到今天，出版英文版的鲁迅全集仍迫在眉睫。例如，我本人就翻译了在德国比较热门的部分鲁迅文章。
我还翻译了余秋雨的《书法史》，这本书让外国人能够深入了解了书法这门重要的艺术及其在中国文化史上的地位和作用，让人能意识到书法是一切艺术的基础，与音乐、绘画、文学同等重要。
王蒙不仅以其怀旧的革命爱情小说《青春万岁》赢得了中国读者的心，而且为意识流文体在文学中的实验性发展做出了巨大贡献。我翻译过他的短篇小说《坚硬的稀粥》和他的自传#China - Deciphered#.
我非常喜欢翻译韩少功的作品《空院残月》，这本书显示出20世纪30年代以来中国深受日本影响的那种氛围。同时还有他的《怒目金刚》，这本书里展示出一位规则破坏者的固执，也包含一些超自然的元素。
我和徐则臣曾同在北大有过学习经历，所以在翻译他的《北上》时，我感到翻译得十分自在流畅。
张炜的书中阐述了两种情况，一种是用一些如"Baummoos pflücken", "Meerwind", "Auf ins Maisfeld", "Fuchs und Wein", "Herbstzorn" 以及"Weintrauben im Herbstregen" 这样的描写，情感强烈地描述了人类在自然和当地风景中的斗争，另一种则是用“Rette bitte den Künstler”这样的描述，写出了干部的世界在善意和贿赂的诱惑之间的挣扎。
虽然韩寒更出名的是赛车手和电影导演（比如他拍过电影大片《四海》），但他也是一个成功、技巧娴熟的作家。我翻译了他的作品《三门》《光辉岁月》和《他的土地》。不同于郭敬明，与其说郭敬明是作家，不如说他是社会名人。韩寒的文学作品质量很高，尤其是他的公路小说《1988:我想和世界说话》（由霍华德·戈德布拉特翻译）。
而我之所以选择翻译棉棉的小说《熊猫》，也是因为我想确认一下，它是否真的如一位评论家所说的那样是“垃圾文学”。于是我在上海拜访了她，一番了解后发现，她的作品是如此的真实，因为书中主要描述的是她自己的生活经历。小说《熊猫》使用的一种实验性的写作风格：直到小说结尾，读者才会发现小说中反复出现的引用其实是真实的录音，是棉棉在上海各种聚会上录下来的哲学谈话。
总的来说，在我看来，中国文学作品要更好地走向世界，应该努力提升自己的文化吸引力，在“软实力”以及“硬实力”方面下功夫。但我猜测提供财政支持以提升软实力，可能会适得其反。
据我了解，2000 年，中国人大就初步提出“走出去”战略。自2007年起，中国政府在财政上开始支持中国文化向外输出。中国政府还支持本国将中国文学类和外宣类书籍翻译成外文。起初，这项政策没能合理施行。大部分资金用于翻译外宣类书籍，而非用于翻译本可在国外市场成功流通的文学作品以及纪实作品。虽然目前这项政策的施行效果有所好转，中国图书在海外的销量仍然未达到最理想效果。这其中的一个重要原因是因为合作的中国出版社拥有翻译的最终编辑权，以及封面设计的最终决定权。中国出版社有时候会更改书籍封面的颜色，插图和吸睛的腰封文字。这样一来，尽管许多中国文学作品有在世界范围内获得成功的巨大潜力，但对书籍的外观或在国外呈现的方式进行限制，有时会破坏这种潜力。中国在提升自身文化吸引力上，还有一段路要走，我也希望我的翻译能够为中国文化走向世界添一份力。

==2. 中国近现代文学的魅力何在？翻译近现代文学如何加深了你对中国的了解？==

Modern and contemporary literature is one of the best ways to understand a country and a culture. Authors have the ability to drag readers into their thoughts, to let them participate in their line of thoughts and let them look at China through Chinese eyes.

In modern Chinese literature one can see the sparks of ancient literature colliding with foreign literature. Lu Xun, for example, is not only a famous Chinese writer, thinker and revolutionary; in the process of translating Lu Xun's works, take ''Call to the Arms'' (Nahan) as an example, this work truly depicts the social life from the Xinhai Revolution to the May Fourth period, revealing the deep-seated contradictions, profoundly analyzing and attacking the old Chinese system and stereotypes, which provides readers with a new perspective to This provides readers with a new perspective to better understand the culture and characteristics of modern China. On the other hand, with the passage of time, new generations of authors have emerged in the literary world, such as the "post-80s" literature, describing the authors born after 1980. Especially after 2000, the "post-80s" writing, mainly youth literature, has achieved a brilliant success in the literary market.

Han Han is one of the more famous post-80s literary writers. In translating Han Han's "Triple Door", I learned that Han Han is full of wisdom, he uses his own unique narrative to express his understanding of the world, and when he finds himself in tension with the world, he is able to give a clever way to solve it. Han Han uses a humoristic critical surrealism to describe phenomena of contemporary Chinese society. Difficult for the translator is, that Han Han often uses traditional proverbs and then interpretes them not by their allegoric, but by their true meaning and creates a twist in the story line. Since the proverbs have different meanings in the target culture, it takes a long time to find solutions for these frequent turning points in Han Han's stories.

The works of Han Han and Lu Xun both reflect to a certain extent their different understanding of the times, and they have their own different views on different times, and when they reflect their thoughts on the times in their books, this in itself is a way to show their charm. The views of the authors of different eras have the characteristics of the people of different eras, and in understanding their thoughts and works is also the way one can understand China step by step.

中国近现代文学是理解中国及其中国文化本身最好的方式。作家能够让读者明白他们的想法，并且让读者们参与到他们的想法中来，让他们以中国的视野来观看中国。中国近现代文学中能够看到古代文学与外国文学碰撞产生的火花。比如鲁迅，他不仅是中国著名的文学家、思想家、革命家；在对鲁迅的作品进行翻译的过程中，拿《呐喊》为例，这部作品真实描绘了从辛亥革命到五四时期的社会生活，揭示了种种深层次矛盾，对中国旧有制度以及陈腐的传统观念进行了深刻的剖析与抨击，这给读者提供了一个新的角度来更好的了解中国近现代的文化与时代特点。另一方面，随着时间的流逝，一些新兴文学登上了文学界，比如“80后”文学。“80后”写作是新世纪之初中国最重要的文化现象。2000年以后，以青春文学为主体的“80后”写作在文学市场取得了辉煌的胜利。而韩寒则是“80后”文学写作中较有名气的一位。在对韩寒《三重门》进行翻译时，我了解到韩寒充满了智慧，他用自己独特的叙述方式将他对世界的理解表达出来，另外，当他发现自己与世界的紧张关系时，他能够给予一种巧妙的方法进行解决。韩寒与鲁迅的作品都在一定程度上能够反应他们对于时代不同的理解，对于不同的时代，他们有着自己不同的看法，而当他们将自己对时代的思考在书中体现出来时，这本身就是一种魅力展现的方式。不同时代作者的看法都具备了不同时代人的特性，在了解他们思想以及作品的时候也就是读者一步一步了解中国的办法。

==3. 很多文学作品在跨文化的翻译过程中，会让作品失去原本的魅力。那么，你在翻译中国近现代文学作品时，是如何克服翻译瓶颈的？和翻译中国古典文学有何不同之处？==

It is not true, that works of literature lose their original attraction when translated into a different language. That is a prejudice. Almost all literature we read today is translated literature. If you do not translate, you only have national literatures read by local people. If you want to win the nobel prize of literature, you need to be translated at least into English, and best also into Swedish.

Every original has its specific attraction. It can be low or high. If it may be of high attraction to foreign readers - which is not always the same as to be attractive to local readers - then it is worth to be translated. When you translate, you can either make it more attractive or less attractive. This depends on a lot of factors. One is, that you need to understand and appreciate the original fully. Many Chinese readers also cannot understand and appreciate a work fully. So the ideal translator is a foreigner, who has lived in China for several years. There are almost only native speakers of the target language, who produce successful translations in the literary field. The same is true for foreign literature: If it wants to be successful in the Chinese literary market, it needs to be translated by a Chinese translator. An even more ideal translator would be an author by her or himself. So the best poetry translation is done by poets who translated into their own language.

In the education process of translators, they are told that they should master the foreign language as well as their own language. But this is not possible except for people who grew up truly bilingual. Therefore, one should translate into one's own language in order to achieve the best success.

我认为这是一种偏见，实际上文学作品在跨文化的翻译过程中，并不会失去其原本的魅力。今天我们阅读的文学作品几乎全部都是文学译作。如果我们不把文学作品翻译成其他文字，那么我们国家的文学作品只会拥有本土读者；如果我们想要让作品走出去，最好获取诺贝尔文学奖，那就至少得把文学作品翻译成英文，当然最好还要译成瑞典语。
每一部文学作品都拥有或多或少的独特魅力。倘若一部文学作品在外国读者看来是极具魅力的，而本国读者却意见相左，我们把它译成外国文字则是一件很有意义的事情。但是我们在翻译文学作品的时候切忌改变其原本的魅力，既不能增加一分，也不能减少一分。要做到这一点需要考虑许多因素，一个就是我们必须对该文学作品有充分的理解和鉴赏。倘若本土读者对某些国内作品也无法充分地理解和鉴赏，那么翻译该作品的最佳译者可以是那些旅居该国多年的外国译者。通常成功的文学作品翻译大多是由译作语言为母语的译者来完成的，外国文学作品的翻译也同样如此。如果一部外国文学作品想要在中国文学市场取得成功，有必要请一位中国译者来翻译该作品。如果这位译者本人还是一位作者，那是最理想的情况了。这就不难理解为什么最好的诗歌翻译都是由那些译语为母语的诗人完成的。
在译者学习翻译的过程中，往往要求他们必须熟练掌握一门外语，其熟练程度等同于其母语。这一点除了那些从小在双语环境里成长的并列双语者可能实现，对于其他人几乎是不切实际的。因此，译者往往是将外国作品翻译成自己的母语时才能取得更大的成就。

==4. 过去很长一段时期，西方对中国古典文学研究较多，而对现当代文学的翻译和研究较少。曾有外国翻译家直言：“中国当代文学在西方的处境如同沙漠。”这一现象背后的原因是什么？==

Of course the world is a desert, when it comes to Chinese literature. And this is unfair, because there are actually works of literature with a high quality in China.

In Germany, non-German literature accounts for 12,5% of literature, but Chinese literature only for 0,3% of literature. However, before I engaged in translation, we had 11 Chinese literary books per year being translated into German. With my engagement, this figure has roughly doubled. How did I achieve this? I gathered a group of young sinologists in Germany, who all joined into a translators workshop. In this workshop, we now translate about 10 books from Chinese into German, most of it works of literature. With this output, we have doubled the number of books translated from Chinese into German since more than a decade now.

The reason behind the desert phenomenon is, that Chinese literature is only as popular as the country is seen by the international community. The worldwide market for Russian literature broke down since end of February 2022, and at the same time the worldwide market for Ukrainian literature has skyrocketed. Since there was no change in quality, we can see from that that there are foreign perceptions and the image of a country, which plays into it. The easiest way for Chinese literature to become celebrated around the world would be to become a country, which is even more clean and even more free than today.

的确，中国文学作品在西方的处境就如同是一片沙漠。但这样的评价对于中国文学作品而言却是很不公平的，因为中国确是拥有许多高质量的文学作品的。

在德国的文学作品总量中，非德国文学作品占比12.5%，中国文学占比却只有0.3%。在我从事翻译工作之前，每年有11本中国文学作品被译成德语。我加入翻译队伍以后，这个数字差不多翻了一番。我是怎么做到这一点的呢？我在德国召集了一些年轻的汉学家加入到一个翻译工作室，一起从事翻译工作。我们目前已经完成了10本中文作品的德语翻译，其中大部分是文学作品。因为我们的努力使中国书籍德译数量同十年前比翻了一番。

造成文学“沙漠化现象”的原因则是：文学作品的受欢迎程度与该国在世界的受欢迎程度相关。从2022年2月底开始，俄罗斯文学的全球市场已经崩溃，而与此同时我们发现乌克兰文学的全球市场却迅猛增长。我们可以看到两国文学作品的质量并没有发生任何变化，是外国对于两国的看法以及国家自身的形象左右了其文学作品的受欢迎度。让中国文学作品誉满全球的最简单的办法就是中国政府进一步加强环境保护和人权保障工作。

So I set myself a goal: to translate more Chinese literature into my native language, German. In Germany I gathered some young sinologists to join a translation workshop. Every year we translate a dozen Chinese books into German, most of them literary works, thus doubling the number of German translations of Chinese books compared to ten years ago.

The reason for the "desertification" of literature is that the popularity of a literary work is related to the popularity of the country in the world. I believe that the easiest way to make Chinese literature globally popular is for China to continue to promote energy conservation and environmental protection, and to advance the rule of law and human rights.

Secondly, ideological differences between China and foreign countries will inevitably make the acceptance of contemporary Chinese literature abroad difficult or cognitively biased. I would like to point out that no matter which country's literary works, if they encounter overly ideological and overly political interpretations, interpretations and translations, their literary and poetic values are likely to be greatly reduced or even completely obscured.

Cultural mentality and acceptance factor: The contrast between the status of cultural importing and exporting countries affects the willingness of the target culture to import and thus the effectiveness of cultural export. The unevenness of cultural acceptance inevitably leads to the unevenness of cultural acceptance context and readers' acceptance mentality, and the cultural "arrogance" and "prejudice" will affect the choice of translated works and translation strategies, and further affect the dissemination of works. Therefore, if Chinese literary works need to go out, first of all, those who participate in this exchange must fully and accurately know their own culture, and also fully understand the culture of the receiving country.

Factors of the translated paratext: The paratext, i.e., the interpreted text, is an important construction of the text, and the preface of the translation is an important part of the paratext. Through the introduction, the translator introduces the creator of the work, evaluates his work, guides the reader to understand the artistic characteristics of the work, and interprets the work. Chinese publishers often cut out my forewords, putting Chinese literature in a difficult position of acceptance.

Insufficient research on readers of foreign contemporary literature can affect readers' perception and acceptance.

因此我给自己定了一个目标：将更多的中国文学作品翻译成我的母语——德语。我在德国召集了一些年轻的汉学家加入到一个翻译工作室，一起从事翻译工作。我们目前已经完成了10本中文作品的德语翻译，其中大部分是文学作品。因为我们的努力使中国书籍德译数量同十年前比翻了一番。

造成文学“沙漠化现象”的原因则是：文学作品的受欢迎程度与该国在世界的受欢迎程度相关。从2022年2月底开始，俄罗斯文学的全球市场已经崩溃，而与此同时我们发现乌克兰文学的全球市场却迅猛增长。我们可以看到两国文学作品的质量并没有发生任何变化，是外国对于两国的看法以及国家自身的形象左右了其文学作品的受欢迎度。让中国文学作品誉满全球的最简单的办法就是中国政府进一步加强环境保护和人权保障工作。

其次因为各个国家的意识形态不同，难免会使中国当代文学在国外出现接受难或者认知偏差的情况。我想指出的是无论是哪国的文学作品，如果遭遇过度意识形态化、过度政治化的解读、阐释与译介，其文学性与诗学价值很可能会大打折扣甚至完全被遮蔽。

文化心态与接受心态因素：文化输入和文化输出国地位的对比会影响目标文化的输入意愿从而左右文化输出的成效。文化接受的不均衡性必然导致文化接受语境以及读者接受心态的不均衡现象，而文化层面的“傲慢”与“偏见”会影响翻译作品和翻译策略的选择，进一步影响到作品的传播。因而中国文学作品倘若需要走出去，首先参加这个交流的人必须充分准确地认识自己的文化，同时也充分了解接收国的文化。

翻译副文本因素：副文本即解读文本，是文本的重要构建形态，译作前言是构成副文本的重要组成部分。译者通过前言介绍作品的创作者、评价其作品、指导读者了解作品艺术特色及解读作品。中国出版商往往会将我译作的前言部分略去，这样会影响外国读者对该作品的了解，使中国文学作品在海外传播出现接受障碍。

五是对国外目标读者群体的研究不够深入会影响其对于中国当代文学作品的认知和接受程度。

==5. 近年来，中国近现代文学在西方“遇冷”的现象有所改变吗？目前的接受程度如何？哪些类型的中国近现代文学更容易吸引欧洲读者？==

There is the underlying problem of the popularity of China as a country in general in the eyes of people in America, Europe, and Africa. Especially in the United States we have seen a drop in popularity of China from 42% pro and 38% contra in 2008 to 22% pro and 73% contra in 2020 according to the Pew Research Center. Of course this drop in popularity is partly home made. So there are concrete measures to enhance the image of China in the world, e.g. reduction of corruption, enhancement of the rule of law, reliability, trust, power control, self-criticism regarding own problems and mistakes and the taking over of as much responsibility for peace and stability in the world as much China represents one fourth of the world population and is among the two largest economies in the world.

Literature itself can contribute its share by delivering high quality literature. Although most of Chinese literature is below world literature quality since the 1930s, there are still a few works worth translating. Some contemporary writers, such as Mo Yan, Liu Cixin, Yan Lianke, Su Tong, and Yu Hua, have already gained some influence among Western readers, but many more writers are still obscure. On the whole, Chinese literature has not yet developed a stable profile with its own characteristics among Western readers.

Chinese authors could also enhance the quality of their literature by learning several languages and reading the literature of other countries in their original languages. In 1920's China, Chinese writers naturally spoke different languages and also participated in the cultural exchange and translated literature. Through this intense cultural exchange, also Lu Xun's short story "The True Story of Ah Q" was translated into French and supported by the French author Romand Rollain.

Among the literary categories, science fiction, children's literature and online literature are more popular among Western readers, including European readers, while works with strong political content are less popular. According to a study by Ariadne Consulting, the scale of overseas users of Chinese online literature has reached more than 80 million in 2020, which has a very strong appeal to Western readers.

在美国、欧洲和非洲，中国作为一个国家本身的受欢迎度不高，这也影响了中国近现代文学在全球的传播。尤其是在美国，根据皮尤研究中心(Pew Research Center)的数据，可以看到中国的受欢迎程度从2008年的42%欢迎和38%不欢迎下降到2020年的22%欢迎和73%不欢迎。这使中国近现代文学在西方的传播仍不容乐观。

中国国家在西方受欢迎程度的下降，除国际原因之外也有一部分国内原因。对此，也有一些具体的措施，例如持续减少腐败、加强法治、可信度和自我批评，提升对权力机制的监管，以及继续为世界和平稳定作出应有的贡献。

文坛自身也可以多多产出高质量文学作品。自20世纪30年代以来，中国文学有时受政治因素影响，但高质量作品仍然较为丰富。像莫言、刘慈欣、阎连科、苏童、余华等一些当代作家已经在西方读者中具有一定的影响力，但更多的作家则依旧面目模糊。从整体上来说，中国文学尚未在西方读者中形成具有自身特色的稳定面貌。中国作家可以多阅读其他国家的文学作品，达到取长补短、兼收并蓄的效果。例如在20世纪20年代的中国，中国作家如鲁迅就积极参与文化交流和翻译。通过这种激烈的文化交流，鲁迅的短篇小说《阿Q正传》被翻译成法文，并得到了法国作家罗曼•罗兰的支持。

在文学类别中，科幻小说、儿童文学以及网络文学是西方读者包括欧洲读者较为欢迎的，而政治性强的作品则不太受欢迎。据艾瑞咨询研究显示，2020年中国网络文学海外用户规模已达到八千万以上，对西方读者有非常强的吸引力。

==6. 你扎实的语言基本功和翻译水平使你的作品在欧美汉学界引起了广泛关注。你认为翻译中国近现代文学能为中西文化交流做出怎样的贡献？==

If we want to better the situation of cultural exchange and mutual understanding, we may reform the country to make it more popular. We also need to bring people together. To get to know someone from the other country often changes the attitude towards the country. This can start with school partnerships and end with city partnerships. Of course there also needs to be found a long term solution between China's self-chosen isolation due to the Zero-Covid strategy and the open world around China.

We can also catch the attention of foreign readers with other cultural phenomena, which are received favorably. For example, the blockbuster movies of the 5th generation Chinese film directors has extremely pushed the reception of Chinese works of literature. Red Sorghum, Ju Dou, Life etc. are all works of literature adapted to films.

Another way is to introduce Chinese food culture with films like "The Wedding Banquet" or "Eat, drink, man, women" or Chinese martial arts with "Crouching Tiger, hidden dragon".

Moreover, the best way to understand a people a country a culture is by reading its modern literature. Through the text, the author can lead the reader into his mind and engage the reader in the trajectory of his thoughts, so that the reader can understand China through the eyes of the Chinese and break down prejudices. For example, An Lezhe and Luo Siwen's attempt to find a way out from a comparative philosophical perspective in their interpretation of the ''Analects'' successfully transmits ancient Chinese philosophical thought to the English-speaking world. Also Yu Dan's ''Confucius from the Heart'' has helped to export Confucian ideas internationally.

如果我们想要改善文化交流和相互理解的状况，除了上面罗列的方法之外，我们还需要让人们团结起来。通常来说，当人们真正了解了来自一个国家的人，他们常常会改变对这个国家的态度。因此我们可以多多与其他国家内部建立学校伙伴关系和城市伙伴关系等。当然，由于中国现在采取“清零”战略，选择自我隔离，而中国周边世界已经开放，我们需要找到一个行之有效的解决方案。

我们也可以用其他文化方式来吸引外国读者的注意，这个方法很受欢迎。例如，中国第五代电影导演拍摄的大片极大地推动了西方对中国文学作品的接受，《红高粱》、《菊豆》、《人生》等都是改编成电影的文学作品。

我们还通过电影《婚宴》、《饮食男女》等来介绍中国的饮食文化，或者通过电影《卧虎藏龙》来介绍中国的武术。

翻译中国近现代文学能够丰富世界文学，中国近现代文学中有许多优秀作品。这些作品值得被世界人民所看到。

此外，了解一个民族一个国家一种文化的最好方式就是通过阅读它的近现代文学。通过文字，作者可以带领读者进入他的思想，让读者参与他的思想轨迹，使读者能够通过中国人的眼睛了解中国，打破偏见。比如安乐哲和罗思文对《论语》进行阐释时尝试从比较哲学角度寻找出路，成功地把中国古代哲学思想传到英语世界。于丹的《论语心得》也帮助了全球传播儒学的道理。

==7. 近现代东西方文学有何交流与相互影响？==

China and the West in modern times has been the Western missionaries who came to China, the foreign students, and the overseas Chinese who emigrated. Western missionaries introduced classical Chinese literature to the West, such as James Legge who was one of the first to publish the Chinese Classics in English, whose purpose was to introduce Eastern culture, philosophical thought and customs to Western readers.

Chinese scholars, such as Zhu Shenghao, were among the first Chinese translators of Shakespeare's works, Guo Moruo of Goethe's works, and the quality and style of their translations are recognized by Shakespearean researchers at home and abroad. The mutual exchange of Eastern and Western literature in modern times has not only promoted the development of Chinese literature, but also enriched world literature. The rich variety of Western literature provides more choices for Chinese reading, not only ''Romeo and Juliet'' love stories, but also anti-utopian literature like ''Animal Farm''. Chinese literature also brings something different to the West in terms of vision and experience. Based on his international readings, Mo Yan has created his vernacular works, which give Western readers a sense of the Chinese vernacular.

The exchange of literature is rising. Currently, we have a peak in German children literature licences going to China.

Also, more Chinese literature is translated into foreign languages, also due to the sponsorship program by the government.

However, printing books with money does not replace a missing market demand. Only if the market itself asks for Chinese books, Chinese literature will increase its worldwide presence. And if that happens, sponsorship is also not needed any more and could be reduced to the much smaller budgets of translation sponsorship we see in other countries.

近代以来中西文化交流的主力是来华的西方传教士、留学生和移民海外的华侨华人。
西方传教士把中国古典文学介绍到了西方，比如理雅各出版了《中国经典》的第一卷，其目的就是为了向西方读者介绍东方的文化、哲学思想和风土人情。

还有中国的有识之士如朱生豪是中国翻译莎士比亚作品较早的人之一，郭沫若是歌德作品最早翻译家之一，其译文质量和风格卓具特色，为国内外莎士比亚研究者所公认。

近现代东西方文学相互交流，不仅促进了中国文学的发展，而且还丰富了世界文学。西方文学种类丰富，为中国人阅读提供了更多选择，不仅有《罗密欧与朱丽叶》这样的爱情故事，也有《动物农场》之类的反乌托邦文学。中国文学也会给西方带来一些不一样的视野和体验。莫言在读获得诺贝尔文学奖的全球文学作品的基础上写了乡土作品，让西方读者真切感受到中国的乡土人情。

文学的交流正在上升。目前，我们有一个德国儿童文学许可证前往中国的高峰。

此外，更多的中国文学作品被翻译成外语，这也是由于政府的赞助计划。

然而，用钱印书并不能取代缺失的市场需求。只有当市场本身需要中国书籍时，中国文学才会增加其在全世界的影响力。如果这样，赞助也就不再需要了，可以减少到我们在其他国家看到的小得多的翻译赞助的预算。

=受访者简介：=

吴漠汀(Martin Woesler)，男，生于1969年，德国著名汉学家、欧洲科学院院士、欧盟让•莫内讲席教授，德国维藤大学研究院、曾任德国慕尼黑应用语言大学中文系主任、罗马第三大学讲席教授、美国由他谷大学副教授。2019年9月受聘湖南师范大学潇湘学者特聘教授。主要研究领域为《红楼梦》、比较文学、翻译、跨文化交流、中国现当代文学。他通晓德语、汉语、英语，先后翻译鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国作家的作品。他同史华慈（Rainer Schwarz)先生共同翻译完成的《红楼梦》,是《红楼梦》首部完整德文译本。荣获2020年度中国政府友谊奖。

参考资料

https://www.sohu.com/a/442142_106055

外国翻译家：中国当代文学在西方的处境如同沙漠
2014-10-30 12:13

在昨天举行的一场“汉学与当代中国”座谈会上，面对采访的几位国外翻译家表示对中国当代文学作品在国外的翻译出版很不乐观，他们毫不留情地用“太差了”、“沙漠”、“怪怪的”等来形容中国当代文学在西方的处境，令记者感到意外。

怎么了

俄罗斯曾经三年没出版一本中国当代文学书籍

俄罗斯圣彼得堡国立大学东方系常务副主任罗季奥诺夫很形象的控诉中国当代文学在俄罗斯的“惨状”：“与政治经济的热相比，中国文学在俄罗斯不能说是冷的，但至少是凉的。”罗季奥诺夫介绍，“翻译逆差明显，达到了20倍，俄罗斯的80后和90后根本就不知道当代中国文学是什么，他们只了解西方文学。”

据他统计，1990年到2005年这15年间，中国当代文学在俄罗斯一共只出版了8本书，平均两年一本，“简直是沙漠”，2005年到2008年因为有合作项目，出版了几本书，2008年金融危机后到2010年的3年间，一本书也没有，2011年出版了1本，才卖出去1000册，2012年好一点，出版了2本，一共卖出去8300册。

加拿大西门菲莎大学教授、汉学家Jan Walls痴迷中国文化，不但给自己起了个地道的中文名字王健，还会表演数来宝。“我注意到，2013年我们的作家门罗得了诺贝尔文学奖后，中国的出版社出版了9本她的小说，而2012年莫言得了诺奖后，却没有同等的待遇，加拿大并没有因为莫言得奖就多出版他的书。”王健说，加拿大的汉学家和翻译家不少，但有个共同的“毛病”，就是重视中国古典文学，轻视中国当代文学，包括他自己，作为叶嘉莹的学生，也更喜欢翻译古诗词。

西班牙马德里自治大学东亚研究中心主任、翻译家达西安娜·菲萨克，在上世纪80年代就翻译了大量的巴金、钱钟书等名家的作品到西班牙。她也直言中国当代文学在西班牙的境况不乐观。

为什么

中国当代作品的翻译连资深汉学家都发憷

对于中国当代文学作品不被国外接受的另外一个原因，是跨文化的翻译过程让作品失去了其魅力。土耳其安卡拉大学中文系主任欧凯带着几个中文流利的博士生来中国交流，他指了指自己的学生，“土耳其目前中国文学的大部分译者都是我的学生，我不应该这样直接批评我的学生，但我必须要说，翻译得太差了，很多错误。”

欧凯的手机里面存着许多张图书的图片，每一张里都有用红色笔圈出来的字句。欧凯向《北京晚报》记者展示这些他随时翻看的翻译作品，其中有铁凝的《永远有多远》，欧凯很喜欢铁凝的文字，“可是你看，这本书的名字就翻译错了，还有王刚的作品《英格力士》，书名直接翻译成《英语》了，这怎么能一样呢。”欧凯又翻到一本莫言的作品，其中的“八路”翻译成了“第八大道”：“他们不了解中国文化，不了解创作背后的含义，如果我是普通读者，到书店里拿起这样一本书翻一下，根本不会去买。”

这种翻译的困难有时也并不只是年轻的译者中文水平有限所致，而是中西文化差异过大。菲萨克告诉记者，尽管已经有三十年的翻译经验，但是在翻译当代作品时还是发憷：“翻译当代的文学作品有些困难，大部分都是通过英文和法文的译本再翻译成西班牙文。”这样就造成了二次转述中和原文更大的误差。她还提到，中国曾经组织了一批西班牙语好的外语人才，将中国作品翻译到西班牙。“我不认为这种做法可行，因为我看了书以后，觉得语言都是怪怪的，读者看过之后可能更觉得中国是个距离遥远的文化了。”

怎么办

这事儿需要政府牵引靠个人力量肯定不行

欧凯的建议很直接，希望土耳其政府和中国政府共同为翻译作品的质量把关。“政府必须介入，之前的翻译都是很个人的事情，喜欢哪本书，跟出版社说，就开始翻译，根本无法保证翻译的质量。”欧凯认为，可以成立一个委员会，监督和审查翻译的质量，为作品严格把关，“这件事情肯定要政府去做，靠个人的力量是不行的。”

罗季奥诺夫则提出了具体的建议，希望俄罗斯的孔子学院和中国作家协会合作推出翻译项目，“不但要翻译，更要推广，不是把书出版就行了，还要大力推广，比如莫言和余华这样一批有名气的中国作家，完全可以走商业宣传的方式。”罗季奥诺夫也敏感地提出，在翻译作品时要特别注意本土读者的接受程度：“我发现很多在中国特别受欢迎的作品，俄罗斯人很不喜欢，甚至还会反感，引起对于中国人的误解，挑选什么样的文学作品很关键。”

菲萨克一直以来担心的西班牙“缺少真正懂中文的人”的人才不足问题，随着2008年西班牙大学开始招收本科汉语专业的学生有了很大改变，可以寄希望于后辈：“目前已经培养了一批年轻的汉学家，真正在搞翻译，真正因为喜欢中国文学才会做这件事。”

同样为人才担心的加拿大学者王健也说，别看加拿大面积大，但是人口还不及云南省的人口，翻译人才就更少了。“现在有一个现象，是中国移民到加拿大，在大学继续学习中国文学的学者们，有这样一批中青年学者在从事翻译工作，都是自发的。”王健说。本报记者陈梦溪返回搜狐，查看更多

Interview by Wan Shuyuan 2022

2022-04-18T14:12:36Z

Bebery: /* 2. 中国近现代文学的魅力何在？翻译近现代文学如何加深了你对中国的了解？ */

Back to [[JM]] page

Links to other interviews as background information: [[2021_Interview_with_Duan_Yuanyuan]], [[Longer_interview_version_dated_March_3_2021]], [[Interview_Univerlag_2022]].

Aim: Give guidance for the field, make some provocative but true statements. Reflect current discussions both in China and internationally. Refer to Web literature work by Chen Dingjia (CASS) and to "Intellectual History" by Chen Zhongyi.

'''汉学家吴漠汀：我为何翻译中国现当代文学?'''

近年来,随着中国作家屡在国际获奖，越来越多中国现当代作家的作品开始受到世界关注。德国汉学家吴漠汀翻译了鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国作家的众多作品。

中新社记者拟以“我为何翻译中国现当代文学?”为题，采访德国汉学家吴漠汀教授。

采访问题如下：

==1. 你不仅翻译了《红楼梦》德文版本，还先后翻译了鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国近现代作家的作品。你为何钟情于中国近现代文学？==

The main reason is, that from the perspective of world literature, Chinese literature is underrepresented in the world. Regarding the quality, the Qing Red Chamber Dreams in guanhua and Lu Xun's "The True Story of Ah Q" in early baihua were among the globally best pieces of literature of their time. In general, we can say that many works of Chinese literature of the 1920s was of a world leading high quality, also because the Chinese writers were in close exchange with the national literatures of the world.

Since 1930, when the League of Left Wing Writers was founded, Chinese authors changed from writing high quality literature for literature's sake to writing literature for political purpose, they voluntarily gave up quality and international compatibility. However, even under this environment, some excellent authors emerged like the ones I translated. So we still have a few works of excellent Chinese literature today. These works are worth to be translated and to made known to the world.

This is the more the case, since we have many more e.g. English, French, Spanish and German literature translated into Chinese than the other way round. One of the reasons why not much Chinese literature is translated into foreign languages is that China as a country ranks among the countries with the lowest popularity all around the world. A major reason for that is her corruption and autocratic system. If China can reform and open up more, also its culture will naturally become more popular all around the world.

Another reason why modern Chinese literature appeals to me is the local characteristics embedded in these works. For example, Mr. Jia Pingwa's works contain a large number of dialects, local traditions unique to his hometown, etc. His works are wonderful, but the amount of his works translated is much lower than the quality of his works deserves, because these parts are difficult to be translated into foreign languages. I think these distinctive cultures are also worth spreading, and I would be happy to translate such Chinese vernacular stories and bring them to the world.

Top Chinese literature of modern and contemporary times is extremely rich. Lu Xun has shaped the new vernacular. His whole life he was torn between the need he saw for political reform and his doubts, if literature can be effective in this respect. Among all international great writers, Lu Xun was the one who even stood above the Nobel Prize of Literature, when he declined to be listed as candidate for it. With Ah Q, Kong Yiji, The Madman's Diary, he wrote the internationally most advanced and modern literature of his time. Until today it is a desideratum to publish his Complete Works in English. I translated for example his essays on the book burning in Germany.

I also translated Yu Qiuyu's History of Calligraphy, which gives foreigners an in-depth inside into this important art and its role and position in Chinese cultural history, considering it the basis of all arts and as important as music, painting and literature.

Wang Meng has not only won the hearts of Chinese readers with his nostalgic revolution love story "Long live the Youth", but has also contributed a lot to the experimental development of the stream-of-consciousness style in literature. I have translated his short story "Hard Porridge" and his autobiographical book "China - Deciphered".

I very much enjoyed to translate Han Shaogong's works "Verblassender Mond über dem verlassenen Innenhof" (空院残月), which shows a dense atmosphere of 1930s China under Japanese occupation, and "Der Zorn des Buddha" (怒目金刚), which shows the stubborness of a rule breaker and also contains some supernatural elements.

Because of the life experience I share with Xu Zechen as student at Peking University, and therefore I felt very much at home when translating his "Ah Peking!".

Zhang Wei delivers both, on the one hand very intense descriptions of the struggle of men in nature and local sceneries with "Baummoos pflücken", "Meerwind", "Auf ins Maisfeld", "Fuchs und Wein", "Herbstzorn" und "Weintrauben im Herbstregen" and on the other hand the world of cadres between good intentions and the temptations of bribery with "Rette bitte den Künstler".

Although Han Han is better known as race driver and film regisseur, e.g. for the blockbuster "Four Seas", he is a successful and skilfull writer too, so I have translated his works "Three Gates", "Glorious Days", and "His Land". Compared to Guo Jingming, who is more celebrity than author, Han Han produces high quality literature, especially with his road novel "1988: I want to talk with the world", translated by Howard Goldblatt.

I also chose to translate Mian Mian's novel "Panda Sex" because I wanted to check, if it was really "rubbish literature" as it was once claimed by a critic. I visited her in Shanghai and discovered that her works are so authentic, because he mostly described her own life experience. The novel Panda Sex was composed with an experimental writing style: Only at the end of the novel, the reader understands that the recurring quotes in the novel are actual recordings, which Mian Mian took from philosophical talks at various parties in Shanghai.

In general, to support cultural attractiveness, the so-called "soft power" with "hard power" means, e.g. financial support, can backfire. The United States was long seen as a country where poor or criminal European immigrated to. It was a country of slavery and its racism was severe even until the 1970s. Since then, the United States have reformed and earned the trust of many other countries in the world. So without investing into soft power, it naturally became a soft superpower. People all over the world eat the unhealthy American fast food, simply because the United States has an attractiveness and people feel to be part of the "land of the free" or the "American dream" when they eat the food.

As I understand it, in 2000, the Chinese National People's Congress initially proposed a "go global" strategy. The Chinese government supports the export of Chinese culture financially especially since 2007. It also supports the translation of Chinese literature and propaganda books into foreign languages. In the beginning, the policy was not applied properly. The most funding was offered for propaganda books, and not from the perspective which works of literature and which fact books can be successful abroad. This practise has become better now. However, the sales figures of Chinese books abroad are still lowered because the partnering Chinese publishing houses make the final edit of the translations and have the final say how to design the covers. They often change the colors, take away the illustrations and eye-catching cover texts.

In this way, while many Chinese literary works have great potential for worldwide success, restrictions on how books look or are presented abroad sometimes undermine that potential. China still has a way to go in enhancing its own cultural appeal, and I hope that my translations will add to the effort to bring Chinese culture to the world.

主要是因为，从世界文学的角度来看，中国文学一直保持着良好的水平。即使是在20世纪30年代后中国政局和文坛动荡的艰难时刻，中国仍然出现了一些优秀的文学作品，所以我认为这些作品值得翻译，也值得向世界宣传。目前在世界范围内，其他语言，诸如英语，法语，西班牙语和德语作品翻译成中文的情况居多，而中文作品翻译成其他语言的情况较少，中文作品在世界上受欢迎程度不够高。在我看来，出现这种现象主要与中国的历史地位、中西方的文化差异、国际局势有一定关系。
中国近代文学吸引我的另一个原因在于这些作品中蕴含的地方特色。比如贾平凹先生的作品中就包含有大量的方言，他家乡特有的地方传统等等元素。他的作品非常精彩，但是被翻译量却无法反映远作品质量，可能就是因为这些部分很难被翻译成外语。我认为这些特色文化也值得传播，我也乐意将这样的中国乡土故事翻译出来，带给世界。
中国近现代顶级文学极为丰富，文学大家层出不穷。因此我选择翻译了大量近现代文学作品，有一些作家的作品我尤为感兴趣，因此对他们的作品关注较多：
鲁迅是近代以来白话写作的鼻祖。他的一生都因两件事而犹豫挣扎：他自知中国需要政治改革，却不知道文学能否在这方面发挥作用。在国际上所有伟大作家之中，鲁迅在拒绝被列为诺贝尔文学奖的候选人时，他的高度甚至超越了诺贝尔文学奖的地位。以《阿Q正传》《孔乙己》《狂人日记》为代表，他创作了当时国际上最先进的现代文学作品。直到今天，出版英文版的鲁迅全集仍迫在眉睫。例如，我本人就翻译了在德国比较热门的部分鲁迅文章。
我还翻译了余秋雨的《书法史》，这本书让外国人能够深入了解了书法这门重要的艺术及其在中国文化史上的地位和作用，让人能意识到书法是一切艺术的基础，与音乐、绘画、文学同等重要。
王蒙不仅以其怀旧的革命爱情小说《青春万岁》赢得了中国读者的心，而且为意识流文体在文学中的实验性发展做出了巨大贡献。我翻译过他的短篇小说《坚硬的稀粥》和他的自传#China - Deciphered#.
我非常喜欢翻译韩少功的作品《空院残月》，这本书显示出20世纪30年代以来中国深受日本影响的那种氛围。同时还有他的《怒目金刚》，这本书里展示出一位规则破坏者的固执，也包含一些超自然的元素。
我和徐则臣曾同在北大有过学习经历，所以在翻译他的《北上》时，我感到翻译得十分自在流畅。
张炜的书中阐述了两种情况，一种是用一些如"Baummoos pflücken", "Meerwind", "Auf ins Maisfeld", "Fuchs und Wein", "Herbstzorn" 以及"Weintrauben im Herbstregen" 这样的描写，情感强烈地描述了人类在自然和当地风景中的斗争，另一种则是用“Rette bitte den Künstler”这样的描述，写出了干部的世界在善意和贿赂的诱惑之间的挣扎。
虽然韩寒更出名的是赛车手和电影导演（比如他拍过电影大片《四海》），但他也是一个成功、技巧娴熟的作家。我翻译了他的作品《三门》《光辉岁月》和《他的土地》。不同于郭敬明，与其说郭敬明是作家，不如说他是社会名人。韩寒的文学作品质量很高，尤其是他的公路小说《1988:我想和世界说话》（由霍华德·戈德布拉特翻译）。
而我之所以选择翻译棉棉的小说《熊猫》，也是因为我想确认一下，它是否真的如一位评论家所说的那样是“垃圾文学”。于是我在上海拜访了她，一番了解后发现，她的作品是如此的真实，因为书中主要描述的是她自己的生活经历。小说《熊猫》使用的一种实验性的写作风格：直到小说结尾，读者才会发现小说中反复出现的引用其实是真实的录音，是棉棉在上海各种聚会上录下来的哲学谈话。
总的来说，在我看来，中国文学作品要更好地走向世界，应该努力提升自己的文化吸引力，在“软实力”以及“硬实力”方面下功夫。但我猜测提供财政支持以提升软实力，可能会适得其反。
据我了解，2000 年，中国人大就初步提出“走出去”战略。自2007年起，中国政府在财政上开始支持中国文化向外输出。中国政府还支持本国将中国文学类和外宣类书籍翻译成外文。起初，这项政策没能合理施行。大部分资金用于翻译外宣类书籍，而非用于翻译本可在国外市场成功流通的文学作品以及纪实作品。虽然目前这项政策的施行效果有所好转，中国图书在海外的销量仍然未达到最理想效果。这其中的一个重要原因是因为合作的中国出版社拥有翻译的最终编辑权，以及封面设计的最终决定权。中国出版社有时候会更改书籍封面的颜色，插图和吸睛的腰封文字。这样一来，尽管许多中国文学作品有在世界范围内获得成功的巨大潜力，但对书籍的外观或在国外呈现的方式进行限制，有时会破坏这种潜力。中国在提升自身文化吸引力上，还有一段路要走，我也希望我的翻译能够为中国文化走向世界添一份力。

==2. 中国近现代文学的魅力何在？翻译近现代文学如何加深了你对中国的了解？==

Modern and contemporary literature is one of the best ways to understand a country and a culture. Authors have the ability to drag readers into their thoughts, to let them participate in their line of thoughts and let them look at China through Chinese eyes.

In modern Chinese literature one can see the sparks of ancient literature colliding with foreign literature. Lu Xun, for example, is not only a famous Chinese writer, thinker and revolutionary; in the process of translating Lu Xun's works, take ''Call to the Arms'' (Nahan) as an example, this work truly depicts the social life from the Xinhai Revolution to the May Fourth period, revealing the deep-seated contradictions, profoundly analyzing and attacking the old Chinese system and stereotypes, which provides readers with a new perspective to This provides readers with a new perspective to better understand the culture and characteristics of modern China. On the other hand, with the passage of time, new generations of authors have emerged in the literary world, such as the "post-80s" literature, describing the authors born after 1980. Especially after 2000, the "post-80s" writing, mainly youth literature, has achieved a brilliant success in the literary market.

Han Han is one of the more famous post-80s literary writers. In translating Han Han's "Triple Door", I learned that Han Han is full of wisdom, he uses his own unique narrative to express his understanding of the world, and when he finds himself in tension with the world, he is able to give a clever way to solve it. Han Han uses a humoristic critical surrealism to describe phenomena of contemporary Chinese society. Difficult for the translator is, that Han Han often uses traditional proverbs and then interpretes them not by their allegoric, but by their true meaning and creates a twist in the story line. Since the proverbs have different meanings in the target culture, it takes a long time to find solutions for these frequent turning points in Han Han's stories.

The works of Han Han and Lu Xun both reflect to a certain extent their different understanding of the times, and they have their own different views on different times, and when they reflect their thoughts on the times in their books, this in itself is a way to show their charm. The views of the authors of different eras have the characteristics of the people of different eras, and in understanding their thoughts and works is also the way one can understand China step by step.

中国近现代文学是理解中国及其中国文化本身最好的方式。作家能够让读者明白他们的想法，并且让读者们参与到他们的想法中来，让他们以中国的视野来观看中国。中国近现代文学中能够看到古代文学与外国文学碰撞产生的火花。比如鲁迅，他不仅是中国著名的文学家、思想家、革命家；在对鲁迅的作品进行翻译的过程中，拿《呐喊》为例，这部作品真实描绘了从辛亥革命到五四时期的社会生活，揭示了种种深层次矛盾，对中国旧有制度以及陈腐的传统观念进行了深刻的剖析与抨击，这给读者提供了一个新的角度来更好的了解中国近现代的文化与时代特点。另一方面，随着时间的流逝，一些新兴文学登上了文学界，比如“80后”文学。“80后”写作是新世纪之初中国最重要的文化现象。2000年以后，以青春文学为主体的“80后”写作在文学市场取得了辉煌的胜利。而韩寒则是“80后”文学写作中较有名气的一位。在对韩寒《三重门》进行翻译时，我了解到韩寒充满了智慧，他用自己独特的叙述方式将他对世界的理解表达出来，另外，当他发现自己与世界的紧张关系时，他能够给予一种巧妙的方法进行解决。韩寒与鲁迅的作品都在一定程度上能够反应他们对于时代不同的理解，对于不同的时代，他们有着自己不同的看法，而当他们将自己对时代的思考在书中体现出来时，这本身就是一种魅力展现的方式。不同时代作者的看法都具备了不同时代人的特性，在了解他们思想以及作品的时候也就是读者一步一步了解中国的办法。

==3. 很多文学作品在跨文化的翻译过程中，会让作品失去原本的魅力。那么，你在翻译中国近现代文学作品时，是如何克服翻译瓶颈的？和翻译中国古典文学有何不同之处？==

It is not true, that works of literature lose their original attraction when translated into a different language. That is a prejudice. Almost all literature we read today is translated literature. If you do not translate, you only have national literatures read by local people. If you want to win the nobel prize of literature, you need to be translated at least into English, and best also into Swedish.

Every original has its specific attraction. It can be low or high. If it may be of high attraction to foreign readers - which is not always the same as to be attractive to local readers - then it is worth to be translated. When you translate, you can either make it more attractive or less attractive. This depends on a lot of factors. One is, that you need to understand and appreciate the original fully. Many Chinese readers also cannot understand and appreciate a work fully. So the ideal translator is a foreigner, who has lived in China for several years. There are almost only native speakers of the target language, who produce successful translations in the literary field. The same is true for foreign literature: If it wants to be successful in the Chinese literary market, it needs to be translated by a Chinese translator. An even more ideal translator would be an author by her or himself. So the best poetry translation is done by poets who translated into their own language.

In the education process of translators, they are told that they should master the foreign language as well as their own language. But this is not possible except for people who grew up truly bilingual. Therefore, one should translate into one's own language in order to achieve the best success.

我认为这是一种偏见，实际上文学作品在跨文化的翻译过程中，并不会失去其原本的魅力。今天我们阅读的文学作品几乎全部都是文学译作。如果我们不把文学作品翻译成其他文字，那么我们国家的文学作品只会拥有本土读者；如果我们想要让作品走出去，最好获取诺贝尔文学奖，那就至少得把文学作品翻译成英文，当然最好还要译成瑞典语。

每一部文学作品都拥有或多或少的独特魅力。倘若一部文学作品在外国读者看来是极具魅力的，而本国读者却意见相左，我们把它译成外国文字则是一件很有意义的事情。但是我们在翻译文学作品的时候切忌改变其原本的魅力，既不能增加一分，也不能减少一分。要做到这一点需要考虑许多因素，一个就是我们必须对该文学作品有充分的理解和鉴赏。倘若本土读者对某些国内作品也无法充分地理解和鉴赏，那么翻译该作品的最佳译者可以是那些旅居该国多年的外国译者。通常成功的文学作品翻译大多是由译作语言为母语的译者来完成的，外国文学作品的翻译也同样如此。如果一部外国文学作品想要在中国文学市场取得成功，有必要请一位中国译者来翻译该作品。如果这位译者本人还是一位作者，那是最理想的情况了。这就不难理解为什么最好的诗歌翻译都是由那些译语为母语的诗人完成的。

在译者学习翻译的过程中，往往要求他们必须熟练掌握一门外语，其熟练程度等同于其母语。这一点除了那些从小在双语环境里成长的并列双语者可能实现，对于其他的人几乎是不切实际的。因此，译者往往是将外国作品翻译成自己的母语时才能取得更大的成就。

==4. 过去很长一段时期，西方对中国古典文学研究较多，而对现当代文学的翻译和研究较少。曾有外国翻译家直言：“中国当代文学在西方的处境如同沙漠。”这一现象背后的原因是什么？==

Of course the world is a desert, when it comes to Chinese literature. And this is unfair, because there are actually works of literature with a high quality in China.

In Germany, non-German literature accounts for 12,5% of literature, but Chinese literature only for 0,3% of literature. However, before I engaged in translation, we had 11 Chinese literary books per year being translated into German. With my engagement, this figure has roughly doubled. How did I achieve this? I gathered a group of young sinologists in Germany, who all joined into a translators workshop. In this workshop, we now translate about 10 books from Chinese into German, most of it works of literature. With this output, we have doubled the number of books translated from Chinese into German since more than a decade now.

The reason behind the desert phenomenon is, that Chinese literature is only as popular as the country is seen by the international community. The worldwide market for Russian literature broke down since end of February 2022, and at the same time the worldwide market for Ukrainian literature has skyrocketed. Since there was no change in quality, we can see from that that there are foreign perceptions and the image of a country, which plays into it. The easiest way for Chinese literature to become celebrated around the world would be to become a country, which is even more clean and even more free than today.

的确，中国文学作品在西方的处境就如同是一片沙漠。但这样的评价对于中国文学作品而言却是很不公平的，因为中国确是拥有许多高质量的文学作品的。

在德国的文学作品总量中，非德国文学作品占比12.5%，中国文学占比却只有0.3%。在我从事翻译工作之前，每年有11本中国文学作品被译成德语。我加入翻译队伍以后，这个数字差不多翻了一番。我是怎么做到这一点的呢？我在德国召集了一些年轻的汉学家加入到一个翻译工作室，一起从事翻译工作。我们目前已经完成了10本中文作品的德语翻译，其中大部分是文学作品。因为我们的努力使中国书籍德译数量同十年前比翻了一番。

造成文学“沙漠化现象”的原因则是：文学作品的受欢迎程度与该国在世界的受欢迎程度相关。从2022年2月底开始，俄罗斯文学的全球市场已经崩溃，而与此同时我们发现乌克兰文学的全球市场却迅猛增长。我们可以看到两国文学作品的质量并没有发生任何变化，是外国对于两国的看法以及国家自身的形象左右了其文学作品的受欢迎度。让中国文学作品誉满全球的最简单的办法就是中国政府进一步加强环境保护和人权保障工作。

So I set myself a goal: to translate more Chinese literature into my native language, German. In Germany I gathered some young sinologists to join a translation workshop. Every year we translate a dozen Chinese books into German, most of them literary works, thus doubling the number of German translations of Chinese books compared to ten years ago.

The reason for the "desertification" of literature is that the popularity of a literary work is related to the popularity of the country in the world. I believe that the easiest way to make Chinese literature globally popular is for China to continue to promote energy conservation and environmental protection, and to advance the rule of law and human rights.

Secondly, ideological differences between China and foreign countries will inevitably make the acceptance of contemporary Chinese literature abroad difficult or cognitively biased. I would like to point out that no matter which country's literary works, if they encounter overly ideological and overly political interpretations, interpretations and translations, their literary and poetic values are likely to be greatly reduced or even completely obscured.

Cultural mentality and acceptance factor: The contrast between the status of cultural importing and exporting countries affects the willingness of the target culture to import and thus the effectiveness of cultural export. The unevenness of cultural acceptance inevitably leads to the unevenness of cultural acceptance context and readers' acceptance mentality, and the cultural "arrogance" and "prejudice" will affect the choice of translated works and translation strategies, and further affect the dissemination of works. Therefore, if Chinese literary works need to go out, first of all, those who participate in this exchange must fully and accurately know their own culture, and also fully understand the culture of the receiving country.

Factors of the translated paratext: The paratext, i.e., the interpreted text, is an important construction of the text, and the preface of the translation is an important part of the paratext. Through the introduction, the translator introduces the creator of the work, evaluates his work, guides the reader to understand the artistic characteristics of the work, and interprets the work. Chinese publishers often cut out my forewords, putting Chinese literature in a difficult position of acceptance.

Insufficient research on readers of foreign contemporary literature can affect readers' perception and acceptance.

因此我给自己定了一个目标：将更多的中国文学作品翻译成我的母语——德语。我在德国召集了一些年轻的汉学家加入到一个翻译工作室，一起从事翻译工作。我们目前已经完成了10本中文作品的德语翻译，其中大部分是文学作品。因为我们的努力使中国书籍德译数量同十年前比翻了一番。

造成文学“沙漠化现象”的原因则是：文学作品的受欢迎程度与该国在世界的受欢迎程度相关。从2022年2月底开始，俄罗斯文学的全球市场已经崩溃，而与此同时我们发现乌克兰文学的全球市场却迅猛增长。我们可以看到两国文学作品的质量并没有发生任何变化，是外国对于两国的看法以及国家自身的形象左右了其文学作品的受欢迎度。让中国文学作品誉满全球的最简单的办法就是中国政府进一步加强环境保护和人权保障工作。

其次因为各个国家的意识形态不同，难免会使中国当代文学在国外出现接受难或者认知偏差的情况。我想指出的是无论是哪国的文学作品，如果遭遇过度意识形态化、过度政治化的解读、阐释与译介，其文学性与诗学价值很可能会大打折扣甚至完全被遮蔽。

文化心态与接受心态因素：文化输入和文化输出国地位的对比会影响目标文化的输入意愿从而左右文化输出的成效。文化接受的不均衡性必然导致文化接受语境以及读者接受心态的不均衡现象，而文化层面的“傲慢”与“偏见”会影响翻译作品和翻译策略的选择，进一步影响到作品的传播。因而中国文学作品倘若需要走出去，首先参加这个交流的人必须充分准确地认识自己的文化，同时也充分了解接收国的文化。

翻译副文本因素：副文本即解读文本，是文本的重要构建形态，译作前言是构成副文本的重要组成部分。译者通过前言介绍作品的创作者、评价其作品、指导读者了解作品艺术特色及解读作品。中国出版商往往会将我译作的前言部分略去，这样会影响外国读者对该作品的了解，使中国文学作品在海外传播出现接受障碍。

五是对国外目标读者群体的研究不够深入会影响其对于中国当代文学作品的认知和接受程度。

==5. 近年来，中国近现代文学在西方“遇冷”的现象有所改变吗？目前的接受程度如何？哪些类型的中国近现代文学更容易吸引欧洲读者？==

There is the underlying problem of the popularity of China as a country in general in the eyes of people in America, Europe, and Africa. Especially in the United States we have seen a drop in popularity of China from 42% pro and 38% contra in 2008 to 22% pro and 73% contra in 2020 according to the Pew Research Center. Of course this drop in popularity is partly home made. So there are concrete measures to enhance the image of China in the world, e.g. reduction of corruption, enhancement of the rule of law, reliability, trust, power control, self-criticism regarding own problems and mistakes and the taking over of as much responsibility for peace and stability in the world as much China represents one fourth of the world population and is among the two largest economies in the world.

Literature itself can contribute its share by delivering high quality literature. Although most of Chinese literature is below world literature quality since the 1930s, there are still a few works worth translating. Some contemporary writers, such as Mo Yan, Liu Cixin, Yan Lianke, Su Tong, and Yu Hua, have already gained some influence among Western readers, but many more writers are still obscure. On the whole, Chinese literature has not yet developed a stable profile with its own characteristics among Western readers.

Chinese authors could also enhance the quality of their literature by learning several languages and reading the literature of other countries in their original languages. In 1920's China, Chinese writers naturally spoke different languages and also participated in the cultural exchange and translated literature. Through this intense cultural exchange, also Lu Xun's short story "The True Story of Ah Q" was translated into French and supported by the French author Romand Rollain.

Among the literary categories, science fiction, children's literature and online literature are more popular among Western readers, including European readers, while works with strong political content are less popular. According to a study by Ariadne Consulting, the scale of overseas users of Chinese online literature has reached more than 80 million in 2020, which has a very strong appeal to Western readers.

在美国、欧洲和非洲，中国作为一个国家本身的受欢迎度不高，这也影响了中国近现代文学在全球的传播。尤其是在美国，根据皮尤研究中心(Pew Research Center)的数据，可以看到中国的受欢迎程度从2008年的42%欢迎和38%不欢迎下降到2020年的22%欢迎和73%不欢迎。这使中国近现代文学在西方的传播仍不容乐观。

中国国家在西方受欢迎程度的下降，除国际原因之外也有一部分国内原因。对此，也有一些具体的措施，例如持续减少腐败、加强法治、可信度和自我批评，提升对权力机制的监管，以及继续为世界和平稳定作出应有的贡献。

文坛自身也可以多多产出高质量文学作品。自20世纪30年代以来，中国文学有时受政治因素影响，但高质量作品仍然较为丰富。像莫言、刘慈欣、阎连科、苏童、余华等一些当代作家已经在西方读者中具有一定的影响力，但更多的作家则依旧面目模糊。从整体上来说，中国文学尚未在西方读者中形成具有自身特色的稳定面貌。中国作家可以多阅读其他国家的文学作品，达到取长补短、兼收并蓄的效果。例如在20世纪20年代的中国，中国作家如鲁迅就积极参与文化交流和翻译。通过这种激烈的文化交流，鲁迅的短篇小说《阿Q正传》被翻译成法文，并得到了法国作家罗曼•罗兰的支持。

在文学类别中，科幻小说、儿童文学以及网络文学是西方读者包括欧洲读者较为欢迎的，而政治性强的作品则不太受欢迎。据艾瑞咨询研究显示，2020年中国网络文学海外用户规模已达到八千万以上，对西方读者有非常强的吸引力。

==6. 你扎实的语言基本功和翻译水平使你的作品在欧美汉学界引起了广泛关注。你认为翻译中国近现代文学能为中西文化交流做出怎样的贡献？==

If we want to better the situation of cultural exchange and mutual understanding, we may reform the country to make it more popular. We also need to bring people together. To get to know someone from the other country often changes the attitude towards the country. This can start with school partnerships and end with city partnerships. Of course there also needs to be found a long term solution between China's self-chosen isolation due to the Zero-Covid strategy and the open world around China.

We can also catch the attention of foreign readers with other cultural phenomena, which are received favorably. For example, the blockbuster movies of the 5th generation Chinese film directors has extremely pushed the reception of Chinese works of literature. Red Sorghum, Ju Dou, Life etc. are all works of literature adapted to films.

Another way is to introduce Chinese food culture with films like "The Wedding Banquet" or "Eat, drink, man, women" or Chinese martial arts with "Crouching Tiger, hidden dragon".

Moreover, the best way to understand a people a country a culture is by reading its modern literature. Through the text, the author can lead the reader into his mind and engage the reader in the trajectory of his thoughts, so that the reader can understand China through the eyes of the Chinese and break down prejudices. For example, An Lezhe and Luo Siwen's attempt to find a way out from a comparative philosophical perspective in their interpretation of the ''Analects'' successfully transmits ancient Chinese philosophical thought to the English-speaking world. Also Yu Dan's ''Confucius from the Heart'' has helped to export Confucian ideas internationally.

如果我们想要改善文化交流和相互理解的状况，除了上面罗列的方法之外，我们还需要让人们团结起来。通常来说，当人们真正了解了来自一个国家的人，他们常常会改变对这个国家的态度。因此我们可以多多与其他国家内部建立学校伙伴关系和城市伙伴关系等。当然，由于中国现在采取“清零”战略，选择自我隔离，而中国周边世界已经开放，我们需要找到一个行之有效的解决方案。

我们也可以用其他文化方式来吸引外国读者的注意，这个方法很受欢迎。例如，中国第五代电影导演拍摄的大片极大地推动了西方对中国文学作品的接受，《红高粱》、《菊豆》、《人生》等都是改编成电影的文学作品。

我们还通过电影《婚宴》、《饮食男女》等来介绍中国的饮食文化，或者通过电影《卧虎藏龙》来介绍中国的武术。

翻译中国近现代文学能够丰富世界文学，中国近现代文学中有许多优秀作品。这些作品值得被世界人民所看到。

此外，了解一个民族一个国家一种文化的最好方式就是通过阅读它的近现代文学。通过文字，作者可以带领读者进入他的思想，让读者参与他的思想轨迹，使读者能够通过中国人的眼睛了解中国，打破偏见。比如安乐哲和罗思文对《论语》进行阐释时尝试从比较哲学角度寻找出路，成功地把中国古代哲学思想传到英语世界。于丹的《论语心得》也帮助了全球传播儒学的道理。

==7. 近现代东西方文学有何交流与相互影响？==

China and the West in modern times has been the Western missionaries who came to China, the foreign students, and the overseas Chinese who emigrated. Western missionaries introduced classical Chinese literature to the West, such as James Legge who was one of the first to publish the Chinese Classics in English, whose purpose was to introduce Eastern culture, philosophical thought and customs to Western readers.

Chinese scholars, such as Zhu Shenghao, were among the first Chinese translators of Shakespeare's works, Guo Moruo of Goethe's works, and the quality and style of their translations are recognized by Shakespearean researchers at home and abroad. The mutual exchange of Eastern and Western literature in modern times has not only promoted the development of Chinese literature, but also enriched world literature. The rich variety of Western literature provides more choices for Chinese reading, not only ''Romeo and Juliet'' love stories, but also anti-utopian literature like ''Animal Farm''. Chinese literature also brings something different to the West in terms of vision and experience. Based on his international readings, Mo Yan has created his vernacular works, which give Western readers a sense of the Chinese vernacular.

The exchange of literature is rising. Currently, we have a peak in German children literature licences going to China.

Also, more Chinese literature is translated into foreign languages, also due to the sponsorship program by the government.

However, printing books with money does not replace a missing market demand. Only if the market itself asks for Chinese books, Chinese literature will increase its worldwide presence. And if that happens, sponsorship is also not needed any more and could be reduced to the much smaller budgets of translation sponsorship we see in other countries.

近代以来中西文化交流的主力是来华的西方传教士、留学生和移民海外的华侨华人。
西方传教士把中国古典文学介绍到了西方，比如理雅各出版了《中国经典》的第一卷，其目的就是为了向西方读者介绍东方的文化、哲学思想和风土人情。

还有中国的有识之士如朱生豪是中国翻译莎士比亚作品较早的人之一，郭沫若是歌德作品最早翻译家之一，其译文质量和风格卓具特色，为国内外莎士比亚研究者所公认。

近现代东西方文学相互交流，不仅促进了中国文学的发展，而且还丰富了世界文学。西方文学种类丰富，为中国人阅读提供了更多选择，不仅有《罗密欧与朱丽叶》这样的爱情故事，也有《动物农场》之类的反乌托邦文学。中国文学也会给西方带来一些不一样的视野和体验。莫言在读获得诺贝尔文学奖的全球文学作品的基础上写了乡土作品，让西方读者真切感受到中国的乡土人情。

文学的交流正在上升。目前，我们有一个德国儿童文学许可证前往中国的高峰。

此外，更多的中国文学作品被翻译成外语，这也是由于政府的赞助计划。

然而，用钱印书并不能取代缺失的市场需求。只有当市场本身需要中国书籍时，中国文学才会增加其在全世界的影响力。如果这样，赞助也就不再需要了，可以减少到我们在其他国家看到的小得多的翻译赞助的预算。

=受访者简介：=

吴漠汀(Martin Woesler)，男，生于1969年，德国著名汉学家、欧洲科学院院士、欧盟让•莫内讲席教授，德国维藤大学研究院、曾任德国慕尼黑应用语言大学中文系主任、罗马第三大学讲席教授、美国由他谷大学副教授。2019年9月受聘湖南师范大学潇湘学者特聘教授。主要研究领域为《红楼梦》、比较文学、翻译、跨文化交流、中国现当代文学。他通晓德语、汉语、英语，先后翻译鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国作家的作品。他同史华慈（Rainer Schwarz)先生共同翻译完成的《红楼梦》,是《红楼梦》首部完整德文译本。荣获2020年度中国政府友谊奖。

参考资料

https://www.sohu.com/a/442142_106055

外国翻译家：中国当代文学在西方的处境如同沙漠
2014-10-30 12:13

在昨天举行的一场“汉学与当代中国”座谈会上，面对采访的几位国外翻译家表示对中国当代文学作品在国外的翻译出版很不乐观，他们毫不留情地用“太差了”、“沙漠”、“怪怪的”等来形容中国当代文学在西方的处境，令记者感到意外。

怎么了

俄罗斯曾经三年没出版一本中国当代文学书籍

俄罗斯圣彼得堡国立大学东方系常务副主任罗季奥诺夫很形象的控诉中国当代文学在俄罗斯的“惨状”：“与政治经济的热相比，中国文学在俄罗斯不能说是冷的，但至少是凉的。”罗季奥诺夫介绍，“翻译逆差明显，达到了20倍，俄罗斯的80后和90后根本就不知道当代中国文学是什么，他们只了解西方文学。”

据他统计，1990年到2005年这15年间，中国当代文学在俄罗斯一共只出版了8本书，平均两年一本，“简直是沙漠”，2005年到2008年因为有合作项目，出版了几本书，2008年金融危机后到2010年的3年间，一本书也没有，2011年出版了1本，才卖出去1000册，2012年好一点，出版了2本，一共卖出去8300册。

加拿大西门菲莎大学教授、汉学家Jan Walls痴迷中国文化，不但给自己起了个地道的中文名字王健，还会表演数来宝。“我注意到，2013年我们的作家门罗得了诺贝尔文学奖后，中国的出版社出版了9本她的小说，而2012年莫言得了诺奖后，却没有同等的待遇，加拿大并没有因为莫言得奖就多出版他的书。”王健说，加拿大的汉学家和翻译家不少，但有个共同的“毛病”，就是重视中国古典文学，轻视中国当代文学，包括他自己，作为叶嘉莹的学生，也更喜欢翻译古诗词。

西班牙马德里自治大学东亚研究中心主任、翻译家达西安娜·菲萨克，在上世纪80年代就翻译了大量的巴金、钱钟书等名家的作品到西班牙。她也直言中国当代文学在西班牙的境况不乐观。

为什么

中国当代作品的翻译连资深汉学家都发憷

对于中国当代文学作品不被国外接受的另外一个原因，是跨文化的翻译过程让作品失去了其魅力。土耳其安卡拉大学中文系主任欧凯带着几个中文流利的博士生来中国交流，他指了指自己的学生，“土耳其目前中国文学的大部分译者都是我的学生，我不应该这样直接批评我的学生，但我必须要说，翻译得太差了，很多错误。”

欧凯的手机里面存着许多张图书的图片，每一张里都有用红色笔圈出来的字句。欧凯向《北京晚报》记者展示这些他随时翻看的翻译作品，其中有铁凝的《永远有多远》，欧凯很喜欢铁凝的文字，“可是你看，这本书的名字就翻译错了，还有王刚的作品《英格力士》，书名直接翻译成《英语》了，这怎么能一样呢。”欧凯又翻到一本莫言的作品，其中的“八路”翻译成了“第八大道”：“他们不了解中国文化，不了解创作背后的含义，如果我是普通读者，到书店里拿起这样一本书翻一下，根本不会去买。”

这种翻译的困难有时也并不只是年轻的译者中文水平有限所致，而是中西文化差异过大。菲萨克告诉记者，尽管已经有三十年的翻译经验，但是在翻译当代作品时还是发憷：“翻译当代的文学作品有些困难，大部分都是通过英文和法文的译本再翻译成西班牙文。”这样就造成了二次转述中和原文更大的误差。她还提到，中国曾经组织了一批西班牙语好的外语人才，将中国作品翻译到西班牙。“我不认为这种做法可行，因为我看了书以后，觉得语言都是怪怪的，读者看过之后可能更觉得中国是个距离遥远的文化了。”

怎么办

这事儿需要政府牵引靠个人力量肯定不行

欧凯的建议很直接，希望土耳其政府和中国政府共同为翻译作品的质量把关。“政府必须介入，之前的翻译都是很个人的事情，喜欢哪本书，跟出版社说，就开始翻译，根本无法保证翻译的质量。”欧凯认为，可以成立一个委员会，监督和审查翻译的质量，为作品严格把关，“这件事情肯定要政府去做，靠个人的力量是不行的。”

罗季奥诺夫则提出了具体的建议，希望俄罗斯的孔子学院和中国作家协会合作推出翻译项目，“不但要翻译，更要推广，不是把书出版就行了，还要大力推广，比如莫言和余华这样一批有名气的中国作家，完全可以走商业宣传的方式。”罗季奥诺夫也敏感地提出，在翻译作品时要特别注意本土读者的接受程度：“我发现很多在中国特别受欢迎的作品，俄罗斯人很不喜欢，甚至还会反感，引起对于中国人的误解，挑选什么样的文学作品很关键。”

菲萨克一直以来担心的西班牙“缺少真正懂中文的人”的人才不足问题，随着2008年西班牙大学开始招收本科汉语专业的学生有了很大改变，可以寄希望于后辈：“目前已经培养了一批年轻的汉学家，真正在搞翻译，真正因为喜欢中国文学才会做这件事。”

同样为人才担心的加拿大学者王健也说，别看加拿大面积大，但是人口还不及云南省的人口，翻译人才就更少了。“现在有一个现象，是中国移民到加拿大，在大学继续学习中国文学的学者们，有这样一批中青年学者在从事翻译工作，都是自发的。”王健说。本报记者陈梦溪返回搜狐，查看更多

Interview by Wan Shuyuan 2022

2022-04-18T14:11:46Z

Back to [[JM]] page

Links to other interviews as background information: [[2021_Interview_with_Duan_Yuanyuan]], [[Longer_interview_version_dated_March_3_2021]], [[Interview_Univerlag_2022]].

Aim: Give guidance for the field, make some provocative but true statements. Reflect current discussions both in China and internationally. Refer to Web literature work by Chen Dingjia (CASS) and to "Intellectual History" by Chen Zhongyi.

'''汉学家吴漠汀：我为何翻译中国现当代文学?'''

近年来,随着中国作家屡在国际获奖，越来越多中国现当代作家的作品开始受到世界关注。德国汉学家吴漠汀翻译了鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国作家的众多作品。

中新社记者拟以“我为何翻译中国现当代文学?”为题，采访德国汉学家吴漠汀教授。

采访问题如下：

==1. 你不仅翻译了《红楼梦》德文版本，还先后翻译了鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国近现代作家的作品。你为何钟情于中国近现代文学？==

The main reason is, that from the perspective of world literature, Chinese literature is underrepresented in the world. Regarding the quality, the Qing Red Chamber Dreams in guanhua and Lu Xun's "The True Story of Ah Q" in early baihua were among the globally best pieces of literature of their time. In general, we can say that many works of Chinese literature of the 1920s was of a world leading high quality, also because the Chinese writers were in close exchange with the national literatures of the world.

Since 1930, when the League of Left Wing Writers was founded, Chinese authors changed from writing high quality literature for literature's sake to writing literature for political purpose, they voluntarily gave up quality and international compatibility. However, even under this environment, some excellent authors emerged like the ones I translated. So we still have a few works of excellent Chinese literature today. These works are worth to be translated and to made known to the world.

This is the more the case, since we have many more e.g. English, French, Spanish and German literature translated into Chinese than the other way round. One of the reasons why not much Chinese literature is translated into foreign languages is that China as a country ranks among the countries with the lowest popularity all around the world. A major reason for that is her corruption and autocratic system. If China can reform and open up more, also its culture will naturally become more popular all around the world.

Another reason why modern Chinese literature appeals to me is the local characteristics embedded in these works. For example, Mr. Jia Pingwa's works contain a large number of dialects, local traditions unique to his hometown, etc. His works are wonderful, but the amount of his works translated is much lower than the quality of his works deserves, because these parts are difficult to be translated into foreign languages. I think these distinctive cultures are also worth spreading, and I would be happy to translate such Chinese vernacular stories and bring them to the world.

Top Chinese literature of modern and contemporary times is extremely rich. Lu Xun has shaped the new vernacular. His whole life he was torn between the need he saw for political reform and his doubts, if literature can be effective in this respect. Among all international great writers, Lu Xun was the one who even stood above the Nobel Prize of Literature, when he declined to be listed as candidate for it. With Ah Q, Kong Yiji, The Madman's Diary, he wrote the internationally most advanced and modern literature of his time. Until today it is a desideratum to publish his Complete Works in English. I translated for example his essays on the book burning in Germany.

I also translated Yu Qiuyu's History of Calligraphy, which gives foreigners an in-depth inside into this important art and its role and position in Chinese cultural history, considering it the basis of all arts and as important as music, painting and literature.

Wang Meng has not only won the hearts of Chinese readers with his nostalgic revolution love story "Long live the Youth", but has also contributed a lot to the experimental development of the stream-of-consciousness style in literature. I have translated his short story "Hard Porridge" and his autobiographical book "China - Deciphered".

I very much enjoyed to translate Han Shaogong's works "Verblassender Mond über dem verlassenen Innenhof" (空院残月), which shows a dense atmosphere of 1930s China under Japanese occupation, and "Der Zorn des Buddha" (怒目金刚), which shows the stubborness of a rule breaker and also contains some supernatural elements.

Because of the life experience I share with Xu Zechen as student at Peking University, and therefore I felt very much at home when translating his "Ah Peking!".

Zhang Wei delivers both, on the one hand very intense descriptions of the struggle of men in nature and local sceneries with "Baummoos pflücken", "Meerwind", "Auf ins Maisfeld", "Fuchs und Wein", "Herbstzorn" und "Weintrauben im Herbstregen" and on the other hand the world of cadres between good intentions and the temptations of bribery with "Rette bitte den Künstler".

Although Han Han is better known as race driver and film regisseur, e.g. for the blockbuster "Four Seas", he is a successful and skilfull writer too, so I have translated his works "Three Gates", "Glorious Days", and "His Land". Compared to Guo Jingming, who is more celebrity than author, Han Han produces high quality literature, especially with his road novel "1988: I want to talk with the world", translated by Howard Goldblatt.

I also chose to translate Mian Mian's novel "Panda Sex" because I wanted to check, if it was really "rubbish literature" as it was once claimed by a critic. I visited her in Shanghai and discovered that her works are so authentic, because he mostly described her own life experience. The novel Panda Sex was composed with an experimental writing style: Only at the end of the novel, the reader understands that the recurring quotes in the novel are actual recordings, which Mian Mian took from philosophical talks at various parties in Shanghai.

In general, to support cultural attractiveness, the so-called "soft power" with "hard power" means, e.g. financial support, can backfire. The United States was long seen as a country where poor or criminal European immigrated to. It was a country of slavery and its racism was severe even until the 1970s. Since then, the United States have reformed and earned the trust of many other countries in the world. So without investing into soft power, it naturally became a soft superpower. People all over the world eat the unhealthy American fast food, simply because the United States has an attractiveness and people feel to be part of the "land of the free" or the "American dream" when they eat the food.

As I understand it, in 2000, the Chinese National People's Congress initially proposed a "go global" strategy. The Chinese government supports the export of Chinese culture financially especially since 2007. It also supports the translation of Chinese literature and propaganda books into foreign languages. In the beginning, the policy was not applied properly. The most funding was offered for propaganda books, and not from the perspective which works of literature and which fact books can be successful abroad. This practise has become better now. However, the sales figures of Chinese books abroad are still lowered because the partnering Chinese publishing houses make the final edit of the translations and have the final say how to design the covers. They often change the colors, take away the illustrations and eye-catching cover texts.

In this way, while many Chinese literary works have great potential for worldwide success, restrictions on how books look or are presented abroad sometimes undermine that potential. China still has a way to go in enhancing its own cultural appeal, and I hope that my translations will add to the effort to bring Chinese culture to the world.

主要是因为，从世界文学的角度来看，中国文学一直保持着良好的水平。即使是在20世纪30年代后中国政局和文坛动荡的艰难时刻，中国仍然出现了一些优秀的文学作品，所以我认为这些作品值得翻译，也值得向世界宣传。目前在世界范围内，其他语言，诸如英语，法语，西班牙语和德语作品翻译成中文的情况居多，而中文作品翻译成其他语言的情况较少，中文作品在世界上受欢迎程度不够高。在我看来，出现这种现象主要与中国的历史地位、中西方的文化差异、国际局势有一定关系。
中国近代文学吸引我的另一个原因在于这些作品中蕴含的地方特色。比如贾平凹先生的作品中就包含有大量的方言，他家乡特有的地方传统等等元素。他的作品非常精彩，但是被翻译量却无法反映远作品质量，可能就是因为这些部分很难被翻译成外语。我认为这些特色文化也值得传播，我也乐意将这样的中国乡土故事翻译出来，带给世界。
中国近现代顶级文学极为丰富，文学大家层出不穷。因此我选择翻译了大量近现代文学作品，有一些作家的作品我尤为感兴趣，因此对他们的作品关注较多：
鲁迅是近代以来白话写作的鼻祖。他的一生都因两件事而犹豫挣扎：他自知中国需要政治改革，却不知道文学能否在这方面发挥作用。在国际上所有伟大作家之中，鲁迅在拒绝被列为诺贝尔文学奖的候选人时，他的高度甚至超越了诺贝尔文学奖的地位。以《阿Q正传》《孔乙己》《狂人日记》为代表，他创作了当时国际上最先进的现代文学作品。直到今天，出版英文版的鲁迅全集仍迫在眉睫。例如，我本人就翻译了在德国比较热门的部分鲁迅文章。
我还翻译了余秋雨的《书法史》，这本书让外国人能够深入了解了书法这门重要的艺术及其在中国文化史上的地位和作用，让人能意识到书法是一切艺术的基础，与音乐、绘画、文学同等重要。
王蒙不仅以其怀旧的革命爱情小说《青春万岁》赢得了中国读者的心，而且为意识流文体在文学中的实验性发展做出了巨大贡献。我翻译过他的短篇小说《坚硬的稀粥》和他的自传#China - Deciphered#.
我非常喜欢翻译韩少功的作品《空院残月》，这本书显示出20世纪30年代以来中国深受日本影响的那种氛围。同时还有他的《怒目金刚》，这本书里展示出一位规则破坏者的固执，也包含一些超自然的元素。
我和徐则臣曾同在北大有过学习经历，所以在翻译他的《北上》时，我感到翻译得十分自在流畅。
张炜的书中阐述了两种情况，一种是用一些如"Baummoos pflücken", "Meerwind", "Auf ins Maisfeld", "Fuchs und Wein", "Herbstzorn" 以及"Weintrauben im Herbstregen" 这样的描写，情感强烈地描述了人类在自然和当地风景中的斗争，另一种则是用“Rette bitte den Künstler”这样的描述，写出了干部的世界在善意和贿赂的诱惑之间的挣扎。
虽然韩寒更出名的是赛车手和电影导演（比如他拍过电影大片《四海》），但他也是一个成功、技巧娴熟的作家。我翻译了他的作品《三门》《光辉岁月》和《他的土地》。不同于郭敬明，与其说郭敬明是作家，不如说他是社会名人。韩寒的文学作品质量很高，尤其是他的公路小说《1988:我想和世界说话》（由霍华德·戈德布拉特翻译）。
而我之所以选择翻译棉棉的小说《熊猫》，也是因为我想确认一下，它是否真的如一位评论家所说的那样是“垃圾文学”。于是我在上海拜访了她，一番了解后发现，她的作品是如此的真实，因为书中主要描述的是她自己的生活经历。小说《熊猫》使用的一种实验性的写作风格：直到小说结尾，读者才会发现小说中反复出现的引用其实是真实的录音，是棉棉在上海各种聚会上录下来的哲学谈话。
总的来说，在我看来，中国文学作品要更好地走向世界，应该努力提升自己的文化吸引力，在“软实力”以及“硬实力”方面下功夫。但我猜测提供财政支持以提升软实力，可能会适得其反。
据我了解，2000 年，中国人大就初步提出“走出去”战略。自2007年起，中国政府在财政上开始支持中国文化向外输出。中国政府还支持本国将中国文学类和外宣类书籍翻译成外文。起初，这项政策没能合理施行。大部分资金用于翻译外宣类书籍，而非用于翻译本可在国外市场成功流通的文学作品以及纪实作品。虽然目前这项政策的施行效果有所好转，中国图书在海外的销量仍然未达到最理想效果。这其中的一个重要原因是因为合作的中国出版社拥有翻译的最终编辑权，以及封面设计的最终决定权。中国出版社有时候会更改书籍封面的颜色，插图和吸睛的腰封文字。这样一来，尽管许多中国文学作品有在世界范围内获得成功的巨大潜力，但对书籍的外观或在国外呈现的方式进行限制，有时会破坏这种潜力。中国在提升自身文化吸引力上，还有一段路要走，我也希望我的翻译能够为中国文化走向世界添一份力。

==2. 中国近现代文学的魅力何在？翻译近现代文学如何加深了你对中国的了解？==

Modern and contemporary literature is one of the best ways to understand a country and a culture. Authors have the ability to drag readers into their thoughts, to let them participate in their line of thoughts and let them look at China through Chinese eyes.

In modern Chinese literature one can see the sparks of ancient literature colliding with foreign literature. Lu Xun, for example, is not only a famous Chinese writer, thinker and revolutionary; in the process of translating Lu Xun's works, take ''Call to the Arms'' (Nahan) as an example, this work truly depicts the social life from the Xinhai Revolution to the May Fourth period, revealing the deep-seated contradictions, profoundly analyzing and attacking the old Chinese system and stereotypes, which provides readers with a new perspective to This provides readers with a new perspective to better understand the culture and characteristics of modern China. On the other hand, with the passage of time, new generations of authors have emerged in the literary world, such as the "post-80s" literature, describing the authors born after 1980. Especially after 2000, the "post-80s" writing, mainly youth literature, has achieved a brilliant success in the literary market.

Han Han is one of the more famous post-80s literary writers. In translating Han Han's "Triple Door", I learned that Han Han is full of wisdom, he uses his own unique narrative to express his understanding of the world, and when he finds himself in tension with the world, he is able to give a clever way to solve it. Han Han uses a humoristic critical surrealism to describe phenomena of contemporary Chinese society. Difficult for the translator is, that Han Han often uses traditional proverbs and then interpretes them not by their allegoric, but by their true meaning and creates a twist in the story line. Since the proverbs have different meanings in the target culture, it takes a long time to find solutions for these frequent turning points in Han Han's stories.

The works of Han Han and Lu Xun both reflect to a certain extent their different understanding of the times, and they have their own different views on different times, and when they reflect their thoughts on the times in their books, this in itself is a way to show their charm. The views of the authors of different eras have the characteristics of the people of different eras, and in understanding their thoughts and works is also the way one can understand China step by step.

中国近现代文学是理解中国及其中国文化本身最好的方式。作家能够让读者明白他们的想法，并且让读者们参与到他们的想法中来，让他们以中国的视野来观看中国。中国近现代文学中能够看到古代文学与外国文学碰撞产生的火花。比如鲁迅，他不仅是中国著名的文学家、思想家、革命家；在对鲁迅的作品进行翻译的过程中，拿《呐喊》为例，这部作品真实描绘了从辛亥革命到五四时期的社会生活，揭示了种种深层次的矛盾，对中国旧有制度以及陈腐的传统观念进行了深刻的剖析与抨击，这给读者提供了一个新的角度来更好的了解中国近现代的文化与时代特点。另一方面，随着时间的流逝，一些新兴文学登上了文学界，比如“80后”文学。“80后”写作是新世纪之初中国最重要的文化现象。2000年以后，以青春文学为主体的“80后”写作在文学市场取得了辉煌的胜利。而韩寒则是“80后”文学写作中较有名气的一位。在对韩寒《三重门》进行翻译时，我了解到韩寒充满了智慧，他用自己独特的叙述方式将他对世界的理解表达出来，另外，当他发现自己与世界的紧张关系时，他能够给予一种巧妙的方法进行解决。韩寒与鲁迅的作品都在一定程度上能够反应他们对于时代不同的理解，对于不同的时代，他们有着自己不同的看法，而当他们将自己对时代的思考在书中体现出来时，这本身就是一种魅力展现的方式。不同时代作者的看法都具备了不同时代人的特性，在了解他们思想以及作品的时候也就是读者一步一步了解中国的办法。

==3. 很多文学作品在跨文化的翻译过程中，会让作品失去原本的魅力。那么，你在翻译中国近现代文学作品时，是如何克服翻译瓶颈的？和翻译中国古典文学有何不同之处？==

It is not true, that works of literature lose their original attraction when translated into a different language. That is a prejudice. Almost all literature we read today is translated literature. If you do not translate, you only have national literatures read by local people. If you want to win the nobel prize of literature, you need to be translated at least into English, and best also into Swedish.

Every original has its specific attraction. It can be low or high. If it may be of high attraction to foreign readers - which is not always the same as to be attractive to local readers - then it is worth to be translated. When you translate, you can either make it more attractive or less attractive. This depends on a lot of factors. One is, that you need to understand and appreciate the original fully. Many Chinese readers also cannot understand and appreciate a work fully. So the ideal translator is a foreigner, who has lived in China for several years. There are almost only native speakers of the target language, who produce successful translations in the literary field. The same is true for foreign literature: If it wants to be successful in the Chinese literary market, it needs to be translated by a Chinese translator. An even more ideal translator would be an author by her or himself. So the best poetry translation is done by poets who translated into their own language.

In the education process of translators, they are told that they should master the foreign language as well as their own language. But this is not possible except for people who grew up truly bilingual. Therefore, one should translate into one's own language in order to achieve the best success.

我认为这是一种偏见，实际上文学作品在跨文化的翻译过程中，并不会失去其原本的魅力。今天我们阅读的文学作品几乎全部都是文学译作。如果我们不把文学作品翻译成其他文字，那么我们国家的文学作品只会拥有本土读者；如果我们想要让作品走出去，最好获取诺贝尔文学奖，那就至少得把文学作品翻译成英文，当然最好还要译成瑞典语。

每一部文学作品都拥有或多或少的独特魅力。倘若一部文学作品在外国读者看来是极具魅力的，而本国读者却意见相左，我们把它译成外国文字则是一件很有意义的事情。但是我们在翻译文学作品的时候切忌改变其原本的魅力，既不能增加一分，也不能减少一分。要做到这一点需要考虑许多因素，一个就是我们必须对该文学作品有充分的理解和鉴赏。倘若本土读者对某些国内作品也无法充分地理解和鉴赏，那么翻译该作品的最佳译者可以是那些旅居该国多年的外国译者。通常成功的文学作品翻译大多是由译作语言为母语的译者来完成的，外国文学作品的翻译也同样如此。如果一部外国文学作品想要在中国文学市场取得成功，有必要请一位中国译者来翻译该作品。如果这位译者本人还是一位作者，那是最理想的情况了。这就不难理解为什么最好的诗歌翻译都是由那些译语为母语的诗人完成的。

在译者学习翻译的过程中，往往要求他们必须熟练掌握一门外语，其熟练程度等同于其母语。这一点除了那些从小在双语环境里成长的并列双语者可能实现，对于其他的人几乎是不切实际的。因此，译者往往是将外国作品翻译成自己的母语时才能取得更大的成就。

==4. 过去很长一段时期，西方对中国古典文学研究较多，而对现当代文学的翻译和研究较少。曾有外国翻译家直言：“中国当代文学在西方的处境如同沙漠。”这一现象背后的原因是什么？==

Of course the world is a desert, when it comes to Chinese literature. And this is unfair, because there are actually works of literature with a high quality in China.

In Germany, non-German literature accounts for 12,5% of literature, but Chinese literature only for 0,3% of literature. However, before I engaged in translation, we had 11 Chinese literary books per year being translated into German. With my engagement, this figure has roughly doubled. How did I achieve this? I gathered a group of young sinologists in Germany, who all joined into a translators workshop. In this workshop, we now translate about 10 books from Chinese into German, most of it works of literature. With this output, we have doubled the number of books translated from Chinese into German since more than a decade now.

The reason behind the desert phenomenon is, that Chinese literature is only as popular as the country is seen by the international community. The worldwide market for Russian literature broke down since end of February 2022, and at the same time the worldwide market for Ukrainian literature has skyrocketed. Since there was no change in quality, we can see from that that there are foreign perceptions and the image of a country, which plays into it. The easiest way for Chinese literature to become celebrated around the world would be to become a country, which is even more clean and even more free than today.

的确，中国文学作品在西方的处境就如同是一片沙漠。但这样的评价对于中国文学作品而言却是很不公平的，因为中国确是拥有许多高质量的文学作品的。

在德国的文学作品总量中，非德国文学作品占比12.5%，中国文学占比却只有0.3%。在我从事翻译工作之前，每年有11本中国文学作品被译成德语。我加入翻译队伍以后，这个数字差不多翻了一番。我是怎么做到这一点的呢？我在德国召集了一些年轻的汉学家加入到一个翻译工作室，一起从事翻译工作。我们目前已经完成了10本中文作品的德语翻译，其中大部分是文学作品。因为我们的努力使中国书籍德译数量同十年前比翻了一番。

造成文学“沙漠化现象”的原因则是：文学作品的受欢迎程度与该国在世界的受欢迎程度相关。从2022年2月底开始，俄罗斯文学的全球市场已经崩溃，而与此同时我们发现乌克兰文学的全球市场却迅猛增长。我们可以看到两国文学作品的质量并没有发生任何变化，是外国对于两国的看法以及国家自身的形象左右了其文学作品的受欢迎度。让中国文学作品誉满全球的最简单的办法就是中国政府进一步加强环境保护和人权保障工作。

So I set myself a goal: to translate more Chinese literature into my native language, German. In Germany I gathered some young sinologists to join a translation workshop. Every year we translate a dozen Chinese books into German, most of them literary works, thus doubling the number of German translations of Chinese books compared to ten years ago.

The reason for the "desertification" of literature is that the popularity of a literary work is related to the popularity of the country in the world. I believe that the easiest way to make Chinese literature globally popular is for China to continue to promote energy conservation and environmental protection, and to advance the rule of law and human rights.

Secondly, ideological differences between China and foreign countries will inevitably make the acceptance of contemporary Chinese literature abroad difficult or cognitively biased. I would like to point out that no matter which country's literary works, if they encounter overly ideological and overly political interpretations, interpretations and translations, their literary and poetic values are likely to be greatly reduced or even completely obscured.

Cultural mentality and acceptance factor: The contrast between the status of cultural importing and exporting countries affects the willingness of the target culture to import and thus the effectiveness of cultural export. The unevenness of cultural acceptance inevitably leads to the unevenness of cultural acceptance context and readers' acceptance mentality, and the cultural "arrogance" and "prejudice" will affect the choice of translated works and translation strategies, and further affect the dissemination of works. Therefore, if Chinese literary works need to go out, first of all, those who participate in this exchange must fully and accurately know their own culture, and also fully understand the culture of the receiving country.

Factors of the translated paratext: The paratext, i.e., the interpreted text, is an important construction of the text, and the preface of the translation is an important part of the paratext. Through the introduction, the translator introduces the creator of the work, evaluates his work, guides the reader to understand the artistic characteristics of the work, and interprets the work. Chinese publishers often cut out my forewords, putting Chinese literature in a difficult position of acceptance.

Insufficient research on readers of foreign contemporary literature can affect readers' perception and acceptance.

因此我给自己定了一个目标：将更多的中国文学作品翻译成我的母语——德语。我在德国召集了一些年轻的汉学家加入到一个翻译工作室，一起从事翻译工作。我们目前已经完成了10本中文作品的德语翻译，其中大部分是文学作品。因为我们的努力使中国书籍德译数量同十年前比翻了一番。

造成文学“沙漠化现象”的原因则是：文学作品的受欢迎程度与该国在世界的受欢迎程度相关。从2022年2月底开始，俄罗斯文学的全球市场已经崩溃，而与此同时我们发现乌克兰文学的全球市场却迅猛增长。我们可以看到两国文学作品的质量并没有发生任何变化，是外国对于两国的看法以及国家自身的形象左右了其文学作品的受欢迎度。让中国文学作品誉满全球的最简单的办法就是中国政府进一步加强环境保护和人权保障工作。

其次因为各个国家的意识形态不同，难免会使中国当代文学在国外出现接受难或者认知偏差的情况。我想指出的是无论是哪国的文学作品，如果遭遇过度意识形态化、过度政治化的解读、阐释与译介，其文学性与诗学价值很可能会大打折扣甚至完全被遮蔽。

文化心态与接受心态因素：文化输入和文化输出国地位的对比会影响目标文化的输入意愿从而左右文化输出的成效。文化接受的不均衡性必然导致文化接受语境以及读者接受心态的不均衡现象，而文化层面的“傲慢”与“偏见”会影响翻译作品和翻译策略的选择，进一步影响到作品的传播。因而中国文学作品倘若需要走出去，首先参加这个交流的人必须充分准确地认识自己的文化，同时也充分了解接收国的文化。

翻译副文本因素：副文本即解读文本，是文本的重要构建形态，译作前言是构成副文本的重要组成部分。译者通过前言介绍作品的创作者、评价其作品、指导读者了解作品艺术特色及解读作品。中国出版商往往会将我译作的前言部分略去，这样会影响外国读者对该作品的了解，使中国文学作品在海外传播出现接受障碍。

五是对国外目标读者群体的研究不够深入会影响其对于中国当代文学作品的认知和接受程度。

==5. 近年来，中国近现代文学在西方“遇冷”的现象有所改变吗？目前的接受程度如何？哪些类型的中国近现代文学更容易吸引欧洲读者？==

There is the underlying problem of the popularity of China as a country in general in the eyes of people in America, Europe, and Africa. Especially in the United States we have seen a drop in popularity of China from 42% pro and 38% contra in 2008 to 22% pro and 73% contra in 2020 according to the Pew Research Center. Of course this drop in popularity is partly home made. So there are concrete measures to enhance the image of China in the world, e.g. reduction of corruption, enhancement of the rule of law, reliability, trust, power control, self-criticism regarding own problems and mistakes and the taking over of as much responsibility for peace and stability in the world as much China represents one fourth of the world population and is among the two largest economies in the world.

Literature itself can contribute its share by delivering high quality literature. Although most of Chinese literature is below world literature quality since the 1930s, there are still a few works worth translating. Some contemporary writers, such as Mo Yan, Liu Cixin, Yan Lianke, Su Tong, and Yu Hua, have already gained some influence among Western readers, but many more writers are still obscure. On the whole, Chinese literature has not yet developed a stable profile with its own characteristics among Western readers.

Chinese authors could also enhance the quality of their literature by learning several languages and reading the literature of other countries in their original languages. In 1920's China, Chinese writers naturally spoke different languages and also participated in the cultural exchange and translated literature. Through this intense cultural exchange, also Lu Xun's short story "The True Story of Ah Q" was translated into French and supported by the French author Romand Rollain.

Among the literary categories, science fiction, children's literature and online literature are more popular among Western readers, including European readers, while works with strong political content are less popular. According to a study by Ariadne Consulting, the scale of overseas users of Chinese online literature has reached more than 80 million in 2020, which has a very strong appeal to Western readers.

在美国、欧洲和非洲，中国作为一个国家本身的受欢迎度不高，这也影响了中国近现代文学在全球的传播。尤其是在美国，根据皮尤研究中心(Pew Research Center)的数据，可以看到中国的受欢迎程度从2008年的42%欢迎和38%不欢迎下降到2020年的22%欢迎和73%不欢迎。这使中国近现代文学在西方的传播仍不容乐观。

中国国家在西方受欢迎程度的下降，除国际原因之外也有一部分国内原因。对此，也有一些具体的措施，例如持续减少腐败、加强法治、可信度和自我批评，提升对权力机制的监管，以及继续为世界和平稳定作出应有的贡献。

文坛自身也可以多多产出高质量文学作品。自20世纪30年代以来，中国文学有时受政治因素影响，但高质量作品仍然较为丰富。像莫言、刘慈欣、阎连科、苏童、余华等一些当代作家已经在西方读者中具有一定的影响力，但更多的作家则依旧面目模糊。从整体上来说，中国文学尚未在西方读者中形成具有自身特色的稳定面貌。中国作家可以多阅读其他国家的文学作品，达到取长补短、兼收并蓄的效果。例如在20世纪20年代的中国，中国作家如鲁迅就积极参与文化交流和翻译。通过这种激烈的文化交流，鲁迅的短篇小说《阿Q正传》被翻译成法文，并得到了法国作家罗曼•罗兰的支持。

在文学类别中，科幻小说、儿童文学以及网络文学是西方读者包括欧洲读者较为欢迎的，而政治性强的作品则不太受欢迎。据艾瑞咨询研究显示，2020年中国网络文学海外用户规模已达到八千万以上，对西方读者有非常强的吸引力。

==6. 你扎实的语言基本功和翻译水平使你的作品在欧美汉学界引起了广泛关注。你认为翻译中国近现代文学能为中西文化交流做出怎样的贡献？==

If we want to better the situation of cultural exchange and mutual understanding, we may reform the country to make it more popular. We also need to bring people together. To get to know someone from the other country often changes the attitude towards the country. This can start with school partnerships and end with city partnerships. Of course there also needs to be found a long term solution between China's self-chosen isolation due to the Zero-Covid strategy and the open world around China.

We can also catch the attention of foreign readers with other cultural phenomena, which are received favorably. For example, the blockbuster movies of the 5th generation Chinese film directors has extremely pushed the reception of Chinese works of literature. Red Sorghum, Ju Dou, Life etc. are all works of literature adapted to films.

Another way is to introduce Chinese food culture with films like "The Wedding Banquet" or "Eat, drink, man, women" or Chinese martial arts with "Crouching Tiger, hidden dragon".

Moreover, the best way to understand a people a country a culture is by reading its modern literature. Through the text, the author can lead the reader into his mind and engage the reader in the trajectory of his thoughts, so that the reader can understand China through the eyes of the Chinese and break down prejudices. For example, An Lezhe and Luo Siwen's attempt to find a way out from a comparative philosophical perspective in their interpretation of the ''Analects'' successfully transmits ancient Chinese philosophical thought to the English-speaking world. Also Yu Dan's ''Confucius from the Heart'' has helped to export Confucian ideas internationally.

如果我们想要改善文化交流和相互理解的状况，除了上面罗列的方法之外，我们还需要让人们团结起来。通常来说，当人们真正了解了来自一个国家的人，他们常常会改变对这个国家的态度。因此我们可以多多与其他国家内部建立学校伙伴关系和城市伙伴关系等。当然，由于中国现在采取“清零”战略，选择自我隔离，而中国周边世界已经开放，我们需要找到一个行之有效的解决方案。

我们也可以用其他文化方式来吸引外国读者的注意，这个方法很受欢迎。例如，中国第五代电影导演拍摄的大片极大地推动了西方对中国文学作品的接受，《红高粱》、《菊豆》、《人生》等都是改编成电影的文学作品。

我们还通过电影《婚宴》、《饮食男女》等来介绍中国的饮食文化，或者通过电影《卧虎藏龙》来介绍中国的武术。

翻译中国近现代文学能够丰富世界文学，中国近现代文学中有许多优秀作品。这些作品值得被世界人民所看到。

此外，了解一个民族一个国家一种文化的最好方式就是通过阅读它的近现代文学。通过文字，作者可以带领读者进入他的思想，让读者参与他的思想轨迹，使读者能够通过中国人的眼睛了解中国，打破偏见。比如安乐哲和罗思文对《论语》进行阐释时尝试从比较哲学角度寻找出路，成功地把中国古代哲学思想传到英语世界。于丹的《论语心得》也帮助了全球传播儒学的道理。

==7. 近现代东西方文学有何交流与相互影响？==

China and the West in modern times has been the Western missionaries who came to China, the foreign students, and the overseas Chinese who emigrated. Western missionaries introduced classical Chinese literature to the West, such as James Legge who was one of the first to publish the Chinese Classics in English, whose purpose was to introduce Eastern culture, philosophical thought and customs to Western readers.

Chinese scholars, such as Zhu Shenghao, were among the first Chinese translators of Shakespeare's works, Guo Moruo of Goethe's works, and the quality and style of their translations are recognized by Shakespearean researchers at home and abroad. The mutual exchange of Eastern and Western literature in modern times has not only promoted the development of Chinese literature, but also enriched world literature. The rich variety of Western literature provides more choices for Chinese reading, not only ''Romeo and Juliet'' love stories, but also anti-utopian literature like ''Animal Farm''. Chinese literature also brings something different to the West in terms of vision and experience. Based on his international readings, Mo Yan has created his vernacular works, which give Western readers a sense of the Chinese vernacular.

The exchange of literature is rising. Currently, we have a peak in German children literature licences going to China.

Also, more Chinese literature is translated into foreign languages, also due to the sponsorship program by the government.

However, printing books with money does not replace a missing market demand. Only if the market itself asks for Chinese books, Chinese literature will increase its worldwide presence. And if that happens, sponsorship is also not needed any more and could be reduced to the much smaller budgets of translation sponsorship we see in other countries.

近代以来中西文化交流的主力是来华的西方传教士、留学生和移民海外的华侨华人。
西方传教士把中国古典文学介绍到了西方，比如理雅各出版了《中国经典》的第一卷，其目的就是为了向西方读者介绍东方的文化、哲学思想和风土人情。

还有中国的有识之士如朱生豪是中国翻译莎士比亚作品较早的人之一，郭沫若是歌德作品最早翻译家之一，其译文质量和风格卓具特色，为国内外莎士比亚研究者所公认。

近现代东西方文学相互交流，不仅促进了中国文学的发展，而且还丰富了世界文学。西方文学种类丰富，为中国人阅读提供了更多选择，不仅有《罗密欧与朱丽叶》这样的爱情故事，也有《动物农场》之类的反乌托邦文学。中国文学也会给西方带来一些不一样的视野和体验。莫言在读获得诺贝尔文学奖的全球文学作品的基础上写了乡土作品，让西方读者真切感受到中国的乡土人情。

文学的交流正在上升。目前，我们有一个德国儿童文学许可证前往中国的高峰。

此外，更多的中国文学作品被翻译成外语，这也是由于政府的赞助计划。

然而，用钱印书并不能取代缺失的市场需求。只有当市场本身需要中国书籍时，中国文学才会增加其在全世界的影响力。如果这样，赞助也就不再需要了，可以减少到我们在其他国家看到的小得多的翻译赞助的预算。

=受访者简介：=

吴漠汀(Martin Woesler)，男，生于1969年，德国著名汉学家、欧洲科学院院士、欧盟让•莫内讲席教授，德国维藤大学研究院、曾任德国慕尼黑应用语言大学中文系主任、罗马第三大学讲席教授、美国由他谷大学副教授。2019年9月受聘湖南师范大学潇湘学者特聘教授。主要研究领域为《红楼梦》、比较文学、翻译、跨文化交流、中国现当代文学。他通晓德语、汉语、英语，先后翻译鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国作家的作品。他同史华慈（Rainer Schwarz)先生共同翻译完成的《红楼梦》,是《红楼梦》首部完整德文译本。荣获2020年度中国政府友谊奖。

参考资料

https://www.sohu.com/a/442142_106055

外国翻译家：中国当代文学在西方的处境如同沙漠
2014-10-30 12:13

在昨天举行的一场“汉学与当代中国”座谈会上，面对采访的几位国外翻译家表示对中国当代文学作品在国外的翻译出版很不乐观，他们毫不留情地用“太差了”、“沙漠”、“怪怪的”等来形容中国当代文学在西方的处境，令记者感到意外。

怎么了

俄罗斯曾经三年没出版一本中国当代文学书籍

俄罗斯圣彼得堡国立大学东方系常务副主任罗季奥诺夫很形象的控诉中国当代文学在俄罗斯的“惨状”：“与政治经济的热相比，中国文学在俄罗斯不能说是冷的，但至少是凉的。”罗季奥诺夫介绍，“翻译逆差明显，达到了20倍，俄罗斯的80后和90后根本就不知道当代中国文学是什么，他们只了解西方文学。”

据他统计，1990年到2005年这15年间，中国当代文学在俄罗斯一共只出版了8本书，平均两年一本，“简直是沙漠”，2005年到2008年因为有合作项目，出版了几本书，2008年金融危机后到2010年的3年间，一本书也没有，2011年出版了1本，才卖出去1000册，2012年好一点，出版了2本，一共卖出去8300册。

加拿大西门菲莎大学教授、汉学家Jan Walls痴迷中国文化，不但给自己起了个地道的中文名字王健，还会表演数来宝。“我注意到，2013年我们的作家门罗得了诺贝尔文学奖后，中国的出版社出版了9本她的小说，而2012年莫言得了诺奖后，却没有同等的待遇，加拿大并没有因为莫言得奖就多出版他的书。”王健说，加拿大的汉学家和翻译家不少，但有个共同的“毛病”，就是重视中国古典文学，轻视中国当代文学，包括他自己，作为叶嘉莹的学生，也更喜欢翻译古诗词。

西班牙马德里自治大学东亚研究中心主任、翻译家达西安娜·菲萨克，在上世纪80年代就翻译了大量的巴金、钱钟书等名家的作品到西班牙。她也直言中国当代文学在西班牙的境况不乐观。

为什么

中国当代作品的翻译连资深汉学家都发憷

对于中国当代文学作品不被国外接受的另外一个原因，是跨文化的翻译过程让作品失去了其魅力。土耳其安卡拉大学中文系主任欧凯带着几个中文流利的博士生来中国交流，他指了指自己的学生，“土耳其目前中国文学的大部分译者都是我的学生，我不应该这样直接批评我的学生，但我必须要说，翻译得太差了，很多错误。”

欧凯的手机里面存着许多张图书的图片，每一张里都有用红色笔圈出来的字句。欧凯向《北京晚报》记者展示这些他随时翻看的翻译作品，其中有铁凝的《永远有多远》，欧凯很喜欢铁凝的文字，“可是你看，这本书的名字就翻译错了，还有王刚的作品《英格力士》，书名直接翻译成《英语》了，这怎么能一样呢。”欧凯又翻到一本莫言的作品，其中的“八路”翻译成了“第八大道”：“他们不了解中国文化，不了解创作背后的含义，如果我是普通读者，到书店里拿起这样一本书翻一下，根本不会去买。”

这种翻译的困难有时也并不只是年轻的译者中文水平有限所致，而是中西文化差异过大。菲萨克告诉记者，尽管已经有三十年的翻译经验，但是在翻译当代作品时还是发憷：“翻译当代的文学作品有些困难，大部分都是通过英文和法文的译本再翻译成西班牙文。”这样就造成了二次转述中和原文更大的误差。她还提到，中国曾经组织了一批西班牙语好的外语人才，将中国作品翻译到西班牙。“我不认为这种做法可行，因为我看了书以后，觉得语言都是怪怪的，读者看过之后可能更觉得中国是个距离遥远的文化了。”

怎么办

这事儿需要政府牵引靠个人力量肯定不行

欧凯的建议很直接，希望土耳其政府和中国政府共同为翻译作品的质量把关。“政府必须介入，之前的翻译都是很个人的事情，喜欢哪本书，跟出版社说，就开始翻译，根本无法保证翻译的质量。”欧凯认为，可以成立一个委员会，监督和审查翻译的质量，为作品严格把关，“这件事情肯定要政府去做，靠个人的力量是不行的。”

罗季奥诺夫则提出了具体的建议，希望俄罗斯的孔子学院和中国作家协会合作推出翻译项目，“不但要翻译，更要推广，不是把书出版就行了，还要大力推广，比如莫言和余华这样一批有名气的中国作家，完全可以走商业宣传的方式。”罗季奥诺夫也敏感地提出，在翻译作品时要特别注意本土读者的接受程度：“我发现很多在中国特别受欢迎的作品，俄罗斯人很不喜欢，甚至还会反感，引起对于中国人的误解，挑选什么样的文学作品很关键。”

菲萨克一直以来担心的西班牙“缺少真正懂中文的人”的人才不足问题，随着2008年西班牙大学开始招收本科汉语专业的学生有了很大改变，可以寄希望于后辈：“目前已经培养了一批年轻的汉学家，真正在搞翻译，真正因为喜欢中国文学才会做这件事。”

同样为人才担心的加拿大学者王健也说，别看加拿大面积大，但是人口还不及云南省的人口，翻译人才就更少了。“现在有一个现象，是中国移民到加拿大，在大学继续学习中国文学的学者们，有这样一批中青年学者在从事翻译工作，都是自发的。”王健说。本报记者陈梦溪返回搜狐，查看更多

2021 Interview with Duan Yuanyuan

2021-03-25T02:22:11Z

Bebery: /* 3 欧洲红学 */

'''访谈提纲 Interview with Martin Woesler by Duan Yuanyuan'''

(Please compare this with the http://bou.de/u/wiki/longer_interview_version_dated_March_3_2021.)

=1 让·莫内讲席教授=
段：吴教授您好，非常感谢您拨冗接受我的访谈！首先恭喜您获得“让·莫内讲席教授”荣誉称号，此地位是欧盟对从事欧洲一体化教学与研究学者的最高学术承认！您真可谓是一位欧盟的学术大使！据悉，该项目申请难度颇大，中国今年只有湖南师范大学、四川大学和中国政法大学三所大学获得资助。您可否借此次获奖的机缘，说明你眼中中欧的学术交流呢？

吴：不客气！我一直将自己看作中欧之间的“文化大使”，将这次获得“让·莫内讲席教授”称号看作自己在华学习、工作、生活近三十年的一个阶段性总结。欧盟委员会2020年在全球范围内授予了70个让·莫内教席，且每所大学最多可获一个名额。“让·莫内讲席教授”传统上主要关注欧盟相关研究。现在欧盟委员会把这个奖项授予在中国任教的德国汉学家，说明欧盟委员会已经认识欧盟与中国间合作的重要性。
You're welcome! I have always regarded myself as the "cultural ambassador" between China and Europe, and this time I won the title of "Professor Jean Monnet" as a phased summary of my study, work and life in China for nearly 30 years. In 2020, the European Commission awarded 70 Jean Monnet chairs worldwide, and each university can get up to one place. Traditionally, "Professor Jean Monnet" mainly focuses on EU-related research. Now the European Commission has awarded this award to German sinologists who teach in China, which shows that the European Commission has recognized the importance of cooperation between the EU and China.

中欧人文交流历史由来已久，欧盟成员国中，中法、中德、中英人文交流密切。中英两国政府于1979年签订文化合作协定；英国也是与我国开展教育合作交流较早的欧洲国家之一，是欧盟内最大的中国留学生目的地国，中国在英建立的孔子学院和孔子课堂，数量居欧洲之首；中法两国人文交流匠心独运，自2002年《中法政府间文化合作协定》签订以来，出现了互设文化中心，互办文化年的创举，涌现了“中法交流文化之春”等品牌活动；中德人文交流独树一帜，文学艺术领域引人瞩目，中德相互担任对方主办的国际书展的主宾国、分别举办了“中国8当代中国艺术展”与“德国8——德国艺术在中国”大型艺术展览，吸引大批中德人民前往观赏。
People-to-people exchanges between China and Europe have a long history. Among EU member States, people-to-people exchanges between China and France, China and Germany and China and Britain are close. The Chinese and British governments signed a cultural cooperation agreement in 1979; Britain is also one of the European countries that carried out educational cooperation and exchanges with China earlier. It is the largest destination country for Chinese students in the European Union. The number of Confucius Institutes and Confucius Classrooms established by China in Britain ranks first in Europe; The cultural exchanges between China and France are ingenious. Since the signing of the Sino-French Intergovernmental Cultural Cooperation Agreement in 2002, there have been pioneering work of setting up cultural centers and holding cultural years with each other, and brand activities such as "Sino-French Cultural Exchange Spring" have emerged; The cultural exchanges between China and Germany are unique, attracting attention in the field of literature and art. China and Germany are the guest countries of the international book fair sponsored by each other, and have held large-scale art exhibitions of "China 8 Contemporary Chinese Art Exhibition" and "Germany 8-German Art in China" respectively, attracting a large number of Chinese and German people to watch.

作为一名在中国学习、工作的欧洲人，我一直想对中欧国家交流往来做出贡献。申请“让·莫内讲席教授”项目就是其中一环。申请时，我就在材料中表明该项目的落脚点在于中国和欧洲的比较。通过该项目，我会推荐几名德国同事来中国短、长期从事研究工作，也会推荐中国同事去欧洲短期访学。并针对该项目，设置课程专题对比中欧近来的对外政策，以期激励中国塑造更加完整的海外形象。
As a European studying and working in China, I have always wanted to contribute to the exchanges between China and Europe. Applying for the "Jean Monnet Lecture Professor" project is one of them. When I applied, I indicated in the materials that the foothold of the project lies in the comparison between China and Europe. Through this project, I will recommend several German colleagues to China for short-term and long-term research work, and I will also recommend Chinese colleagues to Europe for short-term study visits. In view of this project, a course topic is set up to compare the recent foreign policies of China and Europe, in order to encourage China to shape a more complete overseas image.

Notes:

的确，我有把自己看作中欧之间的“文化大使”。我把这次获得“让·莫内讲席教授”称号看作在华工作、学习、生活近三十年的一个阶段性的总结。许多西方人认为了解中国文化是一个极大的挑战，对此我并不否认，但是个人挑战之余，我还从中看到改善社会的必要性、提高中西交流和中西相互理解的必要性。个人的学者都为这个大的目的服务。而且这一切都依赖于接触和交流。中国应该有更多的欧洲学者，中国也应该成为德国每一所大学亟需讨论的议题。

Woesler: Thank you too. You're welcome!
Worldwide, the EU Commission has awarded 70 Jean Monnet Chairs in 2020. Each university can receive a maximum of one such chair. The last Jean Monnet Chair went to China in 2016. The Chair signifies an award from Hunan Normal University, which has proven to be cosmopolitan and internationally networked.

Indeed, I regard myself as a "cultural ambassador" between China and Europe, and I regard winning the "Jean Monnet Chair" as an accumulation of nearly 30 years of working, studying and living in China. Many Westerners think that dealing with China is a great challenge, which I don't deny, but besides the individual challenge, I also see the necessity for improvement of the society, and of optimization of the relations between China and the West as well as the understanding of each other. Change can only be realized through contact and communication. There should be more European scholars in China and China should also become a topic to be discussed at every German university.

“让·莫内讲席教授”传统上关注的是欧盟相关研究。这次欧盟委员会把这个奖项授予一位在中国任教的德国汉学家，这就说明欧盟委员会已经认识到了对比自己和其他国家的政治/发展模式的重要性。

在研究和讲授中，该西席处理的是中国和欧洲的比较。主席的重要议题是不同的教育体系、社会各领域的专业化和数字化以及对隐私和数据保护的理解。

The Jean Monnet Chairs traditionally deal with EU studies. The fact that the EU Commission is now awarding it to a German Sinologist at a Chinese university shows that it has recognized the need to critically examine other models in comparison with the EU.

In research and teaching, the chair deals with a comparison of China and Europe. Important topics of the chair are the different education systems, professionalization and digitization in all areas of society and the understanding of privacy and data protection.

欧盟委员会正式将中国列为 "战略伙伴"，但同时也是 "系统性竞争者"。中国向欧洲靠拢，也是通过'新丝绸之路'倡议。现在，重要的是将欧盟在巴黎气候保护协定、与中国达成的投资保护协定语和即将签署的自由贸易协定中达成的共识推广到其他领域，比如在数据法、人权和法治的理解上进行合作。这张椅子可以成为帮助中国学生了解欧洲的接口，并在德国的利益相关者中提高中国能力。

The EU Commission has officially classified China as a ‘strategic partner’, but also as a ‘systemic competitor’. China is moving closer to Europe, also with its ‘New Silk Road’ initiative. Now it is important to extend the consensus that the EU has reached in the Paris climate protection agreement, with the investment protection agreement with China and with the imminent free trade agreement to other areas, for example by cooperating on the understanding of data law, human rights and the rule of law. The chair could be an interface to help Chinese students understand Europe and to increase China competence among stakeholders in Germany.

我不想把欧盟在中国表现作为中国的反面典型，而是用自我批判性的眼光看待。中国学生正是通过批判性思维树立价值观。我曾做过调查，结果显示，很多中国学生认为欧盟的政治一体化还没有成功，英国脱欧反映了欧盟的软弱，但我想传达的知识是，欧盟已经在运作了，只是方式不同而已，即追求的不是快速而精干的决策过程，而是等待、讨论、参与和妥协的过程。虽然欧盟还远未达到完美，但与中国相比简直是天壤之别。

I do not want to present the EU in China as a counter-model to China, but I want to present it self-critically. It is through critical thinking that Chinese students recognise values. I have done a survey, and the results show that many Chinese students think that the political integration of the EU has not been successful, and that Brexit reflects a weakness of the EU. However, the knowledge I want to convey is that the EU is already functioning, only in different ways than China: it is not a fast and lean decision-making process, but rather shows the virtues of patience, discussion, participation and compromising. Although it is far from perfect, it is simply different than China.

同时，英国脱欧正表明欧盟每个成员都有随时离开的自由，这被视为欧盟的特点。所以欧洲未必比中国差，只是不同而已。而当中国学生乐于接受差别的时候，他们的个性就会发展，成熟起来，适合国际就业市场。因此，我很鼓励学生去欧洲交换学习一、两个学期。

At the same time, Brexit shows that every EU member has the freedom to leave at any time, which is regarded as an achievement. Therefore, Europe is not necessarily worse than China, it is just different. When Chinese students are willing to accept differences, their personalities will develop and mature, become suitable for the international job market. Therefore, I encourage students to go to Europe for one or two exchange semesters.

在主持下，我把几位德国同事带到中国短期或长期停留，把中国同事带到欧洲。我可以在湖南师范大学新成立的 "国际中国研究中心 "介绍德国、欧洲和西方对中国的看法。这可能会激发中国更完整的自我形象，也可能会激发批判性的反思。

Through the chair position, I bring several German colleagues to China for short and long-term stays and Chinese colleagues to Europe. I can present German, European and Western perspectives on China at Hunan Normal Unviersity in the newly established “International Chinese Studies Centre”. This may stimulate a more complete self-image in China and also critical reflection.

鉴于湖南师范大学的让-莫奈教席，特设置课程课题，将中国和欧洲的近代外交政策进行比较，以鼓励中国塑造更完整的海外形象。

In view of the Jean Monnet Chair at Hunan Normal University, a course topic is set up to compare the recent foreign policies of China and Europe, in order to encourage China to shape a more complete overseas image.

=2《红楼梦》首次全译本=
段：您的代表作是《红楼梦》德语全译本，您是如何走上汉学之路的呢？可否谈谈与史华慈合译《红楼梦》的初衷？

《红楼梦》是一件永恒的艺术品，应该提升到“世界遗产”的地位。目前，欧洲只有半数国家出版《红楼梦》译本。1989年我刚上大学的时候，德文版《红楼梦》也只有弗兰茨-库恩的节译本，共40章，只有原文体量的三分之一。库恩翻译的中国小说带有浓厚的德国地方色彩，《红楼梦》也不例外。除此之外，译文还存在一些不足之处，如库恩把《红楼梦》中的“楼”翻译成“城堡”。这种译法也许比较适合欧洲读者的阅读口味，但就中国文化而言，我认为不太准确。这些不足之处也可解释为什么大卫-霍克斯和约翰-闵福德的译本在德国广受欢迎。

A Dream of Red Mansions is an eternal work of art and should be promoted to the status of "World Heritage". At present, only half of European countries have published translations of a Dream of Red Mansions. When I first went to college in 1989, the German version of a Dream of Red Mansions was only a flantz-Kuhn excerpt, with a total of 40 chapters, only one third of the original volume. Kuhn's translation of Chinese novels has a strong German local color, and A Dream of Red Mansions is no exception. In addition, there are still some shortcomings in the translation, such as Kuhn's translation of "building" into "castle" in A Dream of Red Mansions. This translation may be more suitable for European readers, but as far as Chinese culture is concerned, I don't think it is accurate. These shortcomings can also explain why the translations of David Hawkes and John Minford are so popular in Germany.

XX年/契机我开始重新翻译《红楼梦》。也是通过这个项目，我申请到了北京大学德意志学术交流中心（Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst，简称DAAD）奖学金。因此得以在北京大学学习X个月。当时奖学金评审主席是顾彬（Wolfgang Kubin），他后来成为我的博士生导师之一。随后在北京，我多次参观了红楼梦研究所。当时中国红楼梦学会会长的张庆善送给我一本《红楼梦大辞典》。回到德国后，我担任马汉茂（Helmut Martin）的助理。从他那里我了解到史华慈（Rainer Schwarz）已经将小说前80章翻译出来，并将自己的译文交给他，希望出版。马汉茂让我审阅了史华兹的译本。

XX Year/Opportunity I began to retranslate A Dream of Red Mansions. It was also through this project that I applied for a scholarship from Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst (DAAD) of Peking University. So I was able to study at Peking University for X months. At that time, Wolfgang Kubin was the chairman of the scholarship evaluation, and he later became one of my doctoral supervisors. Later in Beijing, I visited the Dream of Red Mansions Research Institute many times. At that time, Zhang Qingshan, president of the Chinese Society of a Dream of Red Mansions, gave me a Dictionary of a Dream of Red Mansions. After returning to Germany, I worked as an assistant to Helmut Martin. From him, I learned that Rainer Schwarz had translated the first 80 chapters of the novel and gave him his own translation, hoping to publish it. Ma Hanmao asked me to review Schwartz's translation.

那次翻译尝试于我具有重大意义，我认为修改史华兹的译本使其达到出版水平比自己独立完成120回的翻译更重要。我花了几年时间修订史华兹的译文，随后翻译了后40回。其中人名的翻译没有采用标准的汉语拼音，而是按照德语书写方式，这样做的目的是尽可能地吸引更多读者的关注，且避免读者出现行文风格“跳脱”感受。
That translation attempt was of great significance to me. I think it is more important to revise Schwartz's translation to the publishing level than to complete 120 translations independently. I spent several years revising Schwartz's translation, and then translated the last 40 times. Among them, the translation of names does not use standard Chinese Pinyin, but is written in German. The purpose of this is to attract as many readers' attention as possible and avoid readers' feeling of "jumping out" of writing style.

另外，我们预计在2022年内出版第五版《红楼梦》，该版本会根据专家意见和自己对原文的理解进行修改。其实每次再版时我们都会做一定的修改，毕竟时代不一样。
In addition, we expect to publish the fifth edition of A Dream of Red Mansions in 2022, which will be revised according to experts' opinions and our own understanding of the original text. In fact, we will make certain changes every time we reprint it. After all, times are different.

Notes：
吴：我第一次接触中国文化，是1987年北京老诗人绿原随诗人和文学家代表团访问我的家乡明斯特时，被他朗诵的诗歌所感动。那时候我还是个高中生。作为一个在保守、天主教、和平、到处有高素质人的明斯特地区长大的，吕原的沉重命运令我震惊。从他的诗中，以及通过与他个人的交谈，我了解到他的经历，一个著名的诗人在1955年被诬陷为23名 "胡风骨干分子 "之一，直到1980年才被平反。所以，既是中国诗歌的美，也是一个民族挣扎在文明现代性道路上的残酷对比吸引了我。

My first encounter with Chinese culture was, when I was moved by poetry, read by the old Beijing poet Lü Yuan 绿原, when he was visiting my hometown Münster with a delegation of poets and literary scholars in 1987. Back then I was still a high school kid. Being raised in the conservative, catholic and peaceful Münsterland with personalities of high qualities 素质, Lü Yuan's heavy fate shocked me. From his poem and through personal conversation with him I learned of his experience as a celebrated poet, who in 1955 was falsely accused of being one of the 23 "Hu Feng key members" 胡风骨幹分子 and only in 1980 was rebilitated 獲平反. So both, the beauty of Chinese poetry, as well as the contrast of the cruelty of a nation struggling to find its way into civilized modernity, has attracted me.

1989年我刚上大学的时候，德文版《红楼梦》也只有弗兰茨-库恩的节译本，共40章，只有原文体量的三分之一。与库恩的其他中国优秀小说译本在语言上几乎没有差别，带有浓厚的德国地方色彩。我也注意到了译文的不足之处。他把《红楼梦》书名中的“楼”翻译成“小房间”。这种译法也许比较适合欧洲读者的阅读口味，但就中国文化、中国历史、中国环境而言，我认为不太准确。这些不足之处也可解释为什么大卫-霍克斯和约翰-闵福德的译本在德国广受欢迎。

When I first went to college in 1989, the German version of a Dream of Red Mansions was only an excerpt by Franz Kuhn, with a total of 40 chapters, only one third of the original. There is almost no difference in language with Kuhn's other excellent Chinese novel translations, with strong German local color. I also noticed the shortcomings of the translation. He translated "Lou" in the title of A Dream of Red Mansions into "small room". This translation may be more suitable for European readers, but I don't think it is accurate in terms of Chinese culture, Chinese history and Chinese environment. These shortcomings can also explain why the translations of David Hawkes and John Minford are so popular in Germany.

《红楼梦》的意义大于个人，是一件永恒的艺术品，应该提升到“世界遗产”的地位。它应该以每一种民族语言提供。目前，欧洲只有半数国家出版《红楼梦》译本。

A Dream of Red Mansions is more meaningful than an individual. It is an eternal work of art and should be promoted to the status of "World Heritage". It should be available in every national language. At present, only half of European countries have translated a Dream of Red Mansions.

1990年我开始重新翻译《红楼梦》。也是通过这个项目，我申请到了北京大学德意志学术交流中心（Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst，简称DAAD）奖学金。当时的选拔委员会主席是沃尔夫冈·顾彬（Wolfgang Kubin，中文名顾彬），他后来成为我的博士生导师之一。
因此我也得以在北京大学留学了，考上了语言考试，入了中文系，读了几个学期的“先当代中国文学”的本科，一致到1992年。随后在北京，我多次参观了中国艺术研究院红楼梦研究所。参观之时中国红楼梦学会的主席张庆山送给我一本《红楼梦大词典》作为礼物。后来回到德国，我成为马汉茂教授的研究助理。在那里我了解到，已经有雷纳-施瓦茨的小说前80章的粗译本。从他那里我了解到，莱纳-史华慈（Rainer Schwarz）已经将小说前80章翻译出来，并将自己的译文交给他出版，马汉茂让我审阅了莱纳-史华兹的译本。不过译文暂未达到出版质量，还需修订，之前已经有好几家出版社都拒绝了发表。

In 1990 I began to retranslate "A Dream of Red Mansions". It was also through this project that I applied for a scholarship from Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst (DAAD) of Peking University. So I was able to study at Peking University for X months. At that time, the chairman of the selection committee was Wolfgang Kubin (Chinese name Gu Bin), who later became one of my doctoral supervisors. Later in Beijing, I visited the Dream of Red Mansions Research Institute many times. During the visit, the president of the Hongloumeng Studies Society Zhang Qingshan gave me a dictionary of a Dream of Red Mansions. Later, when I returned to Germany, I cooperated with Helmut Martin. I learned from him that Rainer Schwarz had translated the first 80 chapters of the novel and gave him his own translation for publication. Helmut Martin asked me to review Rainer Schwartz's translation. However, the translation has not yet reached the publishing quality and needed to be revised, several publishing houses had already refused to publish the translation.

但是，这次翻译尝试具有历史意义，我觉得修改和出版比完成自己的120章翻译更重要。于是我把我的译本搁置起来，对莱纳-施瓦茨先生的译本进行了几年的修改，然后按照前80章的风格重新修改了我120章译本的后40章（适应非标准音译，而不是按意思翻译人名等），尽量让读者有一个完整的阅读流程。

However, this translation attempt had historical significance and I felt that the revision and publication was more important than the completion of my own 120 chapter translation. So I put my translation on the back burner, revised Mr. Schwarz’s translation for several years, and then reworked the last 40 chapters of my 120-chapter translation according to the style of the first 80 chapters (adapting to non-standard phonetic transcription instead of translating names by meanings, etc.). The purpose of this is to attract more readers' attention as much as possible, and to avoid readers' feeling of "jumping" in writing style.

现在，暂时有一个仔细、完整的翻译，并有解释。之后的计划是在2022年内会出版第五版，该版本会根据很多专家意见和自己对原文的重新理解再进行改进。原来我把我的翻译按照前80回的翻译风格改变了（比如把我按意思翻译的人名按前80回靠近德语的发音改了）和按照敏福德的交际的翻译方法（比如贾宝玉跟他祖母说话的时候把“”翻译成“奶奶”）。在第二个版本的时候我已经编辑进去了所有的翻译同事推荐要改善的地方，当然每个地方我自己决定改变还是不改变，如果要改变要改成具体的哪些字。我觉得最重要是读者得到最理想的翻译，不要因为自己选过莫一种说法就要坚持不改变。我觉得素质高的人可以承认他们犯了错。当然，翻译有权利自己决定怎么翻译。有的时候把苹果要翻译成李子，比如目的文化没有苹果还是李子的角色就是原来的文化的苹果。这样，豪克斯也把《红楼梦》里面的红翻译成绿。但是我觉得有一个限制：如果翻译家选了一个在这个上下文特别少用的一个次要含义，但是有更合适的主要含义，那应该有愿意改。不要因为骄傲就坚持自己的不那么好的翻译法。歌德算一个天才。但是他的《流浪者的夜歌》他改了好几遍。这个说明歌德不是天才吗？我觉得他因为能承认自己可以做得更好才是天才。

比如在我未出版的120章全译本中，很多人名的翻译也考虑到了名字的中文含义。[What amendments will you make in the fifth edition of the Chamber? Could you please list some? ]

现在，暂时有了仔细、完整的译文和解释。也许在2021年内，可以出版第五版，会根据同仁们的意见和自己对原文的重新理解进行改进。

我把原文重新读了一遍，每句重新考虑怎么翻译。我这一次靠原文靠的近一点，比如把贾宝玉跟他祖母的称呼法按照原文翻译了。当然这个会给当代西方读者一种陌生感，但是会多给他提供一种原文的味儿。

比如我未出版的120章全译本中（有可能在将来也要单独的发表），很多人名的翻译也考虑到了人名的中文含义。

Now, for the time being, a careful, complete translation with explanations is available. Maybe within 2021, the fifth edition can be published, which will be improved according to colleagues' opinions and their own re-understanding of the original text. For example, in my unpublished full translation of 120 chapters, the translation of many names also takes into account the Chinese meaning of names. [What amendments will you make in the fifth edition of the Chamber? Could you please list some? ]

=3 欧洲红学=

段：您曾在国内红学权威刊物《红楼梦学刊》上发表过三篇文章，以德国人的视角叙述西方对《红楼梦》的了解，并介绍德译本情况以及西方学者的理解及评价。从这三篇文章可以看出，《红楼梦》在西方的传播已变换形式，由文本本身的传播向舞台剧等多模态形态发展。请问现今欧洲的红学研究、传播现状如何？您认为《红楼梦》对国内外读者有何影响？

You have published three articles in the Journal of Dreams of the Red Chamber, an authoritative journal of red studies in China, describing the Western understanding of Dreams of the Red Chamber from a German perspective, and introducing the German translation as well as the understanding and evaluation of Western scholars. From these three articles, we can see that the dissemination of Dream of the Red Chamber in the West has changed from the text itself to a multimodal form, such as a stage play. What is the current status of the study and dissemination of Redology in Europe?

小说是“时代精神”的体现。《红楼梦》于1791年首次出版，其创作背景设置在满族统治下的清朝，曹家或受康熙宠信或备受雍正冷落以致抄家没落。囿于时代背景，作者在当时无法公开批判帝制皇权，但在小说中，三大家庭日益衰败，家族的荣耀和家产无法承继，作者开始寻求被迫害的根源。这种对名家望族没落之路的描写使我们想起了契诃夫的小说。此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的纪实性历史小说《铁皮鼓》(1959年)非常相似。最值得一提的是《红楼梦》和托马斯·曼的《布登勃洛克一家》（1901年）。两部小说都描写了出生富贵的年轻一代人的颓废、没落、溃散，以及一个家族的社会地位和经济状况的逐渐没落与覆灭。托马斯·曼的小说是以资产阶级社会的巨大变革为背景，而曹雪芹的作品则选取了某个朝代的更迭时期作为时代背景，在其中帝王利益与家族利益发生了冲突。有趣的是，两部作品中的主要角色都挑选了英年早逝的类似人物。《红楼梦》里林黛玉为情而亡，秦可卿因乱伦自尽，贾元春和妙玉也是突然死亡。在《布登勃洛克一家》里克拉拉在婚后不久即死于脑结核，托马斯在牙科手术后去世，汉诺死于伤寒。两部作品都在结构和主题上运用了影射等大量的艺术手法，以丰富的故事进展描绘出一幅衰败的景象。因此，这种并行发展令人惊讶，很难说《布登勃洛克一家》的创作没受到《红楼梦》的影响。

The novel is the embodiment of "the spirit of the times". A Dream of Red Mansions was first published in 1791, and its creative background was set in the Qing Dynasty under Manchu rule. The Cao family was favored by Kangxi or neglected by Yongzheng, resulting in the decline of property ownership. Constrained by the background of the times, the author could not openly criticize the imperial power at that time, but in the novel, the three big families were declining day by day, and the glory and property of the family could not be inherited, so the author began to seek the root of persecution. This description of the decline of famous families reminds us of Chekhov's novels. In addition, the detailed description of the life of all social strata in the early Qing Dynasty in A Dream of Red Mansions is very similar to Gunter Grass's documentary historical novel Tin Drum (1959). The most noteworthy ones are A Dream of Red Mansions and Thomas Mann's Budenbrock Family (1901). Both novels describe the decadence, decline and collapse of the wealthy young generation, as well as the gradual decline and collapse of a family's social status and economic situation. Thomas Mann's novels are set against the background of great changes in bourgeois society, while Cao Xueqin's works choose the change period of a certain dynasty as the background of the times, in which the interests of emperors and families conflict. Interestingly, the main characters in the two works have chosen similar characters who died young. In a Dream of Red Mansions, Lin Daiyu died of love, Qin Keqing committed suicide due to incest, and Jia Yuanchun and Miaoyu also died suddenly. In the Budenbrock Family, Clara died of brain tuberculosis shortly after marriage, Thomas died after dental surgery, and Hanno died of typhoid fever. Both works use a lot of artistic techniques such as innuendo in structure and theme, and depict a declining scene with rich story progress. Therefore, this parallel development is surprising. It is hard to say that the creation of the Budenbroc Family was not influenced by a Dream of Red Mansions.

Notes：

吴：最重要的是，我想还没有译本的另一半欧洲国家也会有译本。再有就是西方尤其是美国对《红楼梦》的研究，用现代的理论来关注小说的一些重要方面，比如 "感情"、"同性恋"等。每隔几年就会有一次HLM会议。在这里，整理一下以前的研究，写一部西方学者参与小说的历史是很重要的。

Most importantly, I think that the other half of European countries that do not yet have a translation will also get one. Then there is HLM research in the West, especially in the U.S., which uses modern theories to focus on some important aspects of the novel, such as “feeling, homosexuality, etc”. Every few years there is an HLM conference. Here it would be important to compile previous research and write a history of scholarly engagement with the novel in the West.

《红楼梦》应该成为世界文化遗产。西方的读者也有自己与小说的关系。对主人公的认同尽管有文化和历史的距离，但还是能跨越空间和时间的距离。

The Dream of the Red Chamber should become a world cultural heritage. Readers in the West also have their own relationship to the novel. Identification with the hero works despite the cultural and historical distance, the distance can get across space and time.

我对小说在西方的接受情况进行了开创性的研究。在这样做的过程中，我证明了这部小说的传播速度非常快，包括在节选翻译中，但这并没有获得世界文学在西方的认可，直到76年后，它在中国出版，48年后，它的第一个节选翻译在欧洲。这一方面是因为完整的译本需要很长时间才能问世，另一方面是因为许多西方汉学家、文化中介和翻译家的民族中心主义世界观。

I conducted a pioneering study on the reception of the novel in the West. In doing so, I demonstrated that the novel spread very quickly, including in excerpt translations, but that did not gain recognition as world literature in the West until 76 years after its publication in China and 48 years after its first excerpt translations in Europe. This was partly because it took a long time for complete translations to become available, and partly because of the ethnocentric worldview of many Western sinologists, cultural mediators, and translators.

近来，对《红楼梦》的翻译也有研究，但遗憾的是往往是中国学者没有与西方学者交流。为了在这里达到更高的质量，中国同事的成果在发表前应该由他们必不可少的同事审阅。无论如何，无论在中国还是在西方，小说的跨文化研究都是一个新的领域。

Recently, translations of the novel have also been studied, but unfortunately often by Chinese scholars without exchange with Western scholars. In order to achieve higher quality here, Chinese colleagues should have their results reviewed by their essential colleagues before publication. In any case, a new field, both in China and in the West, is cross-cultural studies on the novel.

欧洲红学经常从自己的文化背景通过比较文学和跨国文化的角度来理解《红楼梦》。最近几百年，长片小说在中国和在欧洲都是“时代精神”的体现。《红楼梦》于1791年首次出版，其创作背景是中国少数民族之一的满族统治下的清朝，曹家或受康熙宠信或备受雍正冷落以致抄家没落。囿于时代背景，作者在当时无法公开批判帝制皇权，但在小说中，他在家庭日益衰败（从事道教、闲暇、诗歌创作、艺术和音乐，而不是为了能够谋生而学习）和自己没有实现作为家族继承人的期望中，寻求被迫害的根源。这种对名家望族没落之路的描写使我们想起了契诃夫的小说。此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的纪实性历史小说《铁皮鼓》(1959年)非常相似。最值得一提的是《红楼梦》和托马斯·曼的《布登勃洛克一家》（1901年）。两部小说都描写了出生富贵的年轻一代人的颓废、没落、溃散，以及一个家族的社会地位和经济状况的逐渐没落与覆灭。托马斯·曼的小说是以资产阶级社会的巨大变革为背景，而曹雪芹的作品则选取了某个朝代的更迭时期作为时代背景，在其中帝王利益与家族利益发生了冲突! 有趣的是，两部作品中的主要角色都挑选了英年早逝的类似人物。《红楼梦》里林黛玉为情而亡，秦可卿因跟她丈夫的父亲做爱自尽，贾元春和妙玉也是突然死亡。在《布登勃洛克一家》里克拉拉在婚后不久即死于脑结核，托马斯在牙科手术后去世，汉诺死于伤寒。两部作品都在结构和主题上运用了影射等大量的艺术手法，以丰富的故事进展描绘出一幅衰败的景象。因此，这种并行发展令人惊讶，很难说《布登勃洛克一家》的创作没受到《红楼梦》的影响。

European Redology often understands The Dream of the Red Chamber from its own cultural background through a comparative literary and transnational cultural perspective. During the last few hundred years, novels in China and Europe are the embodiment of "the spirit of the times". A Dream of Red Mansions was first published in 1791. Its creation background was the Qing Dynasty under the rule of Manchu, one of China's ethnic minorities. The Cao family was either favored by Kangxi or neglected by Yongzheng, resulting in the decline of property ownership. Constrained by the background of the times, the author could not publicly criticize the imperial power at that time, but in the novel, he sought the root of persecution in the declining family (engaged in Taoism, leisure, poetry creation, art and music, instead of studying in order to make a living) and his failure to realize his expectation of being the heir of the family. This decadent description of declining families reminds us of Chekhov's novels. In addition, the detailed description of the life of all social strata in the early Qing Dynasty in A Dream of Red Mansions is very similar to Gunter Grass's documentary historical novel Tin Drum (1959). The most noteworthy ones are A Dream of Red Mansions and Thomas Mann's Budenbrock Family (1901). Both novels describe the decadence, decline and collapse of the wealthy young generation, as well as the gradual decline and collapse of a family's social status and economic situation. Thomas Mann's novels are set against the background of great changes in bourgeois society, while Cao Xueqin's works choose the change period of a certain dynasty as the background of the times, in which the interests of emperors and families conflict! Interestingly, the main characters in the two works have chosen similar characters who died young. In a Dream of Red Mansions, Lin Daiyu died of love, Qin Keqing committed suicide due to sex with her husband's father, and Jia Yuanchun and Miaoyu also died suddenly. In the Budenbrock Family, Clara died of brain tuberculosis shortly after marriage, Thomas died after dental surgery, and Hanno died of typhoid fever. Both works use a lot of artistic techniques such as innuendo in structure and theme, and depict a declining scene with rich story progress. Therefore, this parallel development is surprising. It is hard to say that the creation of the Budenbrook Family was not influenced by a Dream of Red Mansions.

=4.现今欧洲汉学=
段：您曾在欧洲多所学校任教，请问现今欧洲汉学的研究状况如何？

You have taught in many European schools. What is the current research status of Sinology in Europe?

吴：有时我也会想一想

I think, to evaluate European Sinology, one should look at the history, at the conferences, ongoing research projects, publications, like "European Journal of Sinology", "European Journal of Chinese Studies" and institutions.

Sometimes I think about the question, if there is Sinology in Europe at all. At other times, I doubt if there is Sinology outside of Europe. At least we can see from genetic evidence, that there was early exchange of domesticated crops and animals as well as culture between China and the Middle East as well as between the Middle East and Europe. Later, the Roman Empire started diplomatic contacts with Han# Empire and soon after we have European merchants arriving in China. Although the main population in Europe stayed ethnocentric for a long time, and founded its knowledge on compendium like #, among those early merchants the first experts changed the view on the Chinese culture towards a more fact-based one, prepared the ground for missionaries, who described China in much more detail and paved the way for the first scholarly experts, who changed the perception towards a scientific one, based on observations, explorations, analysis and interpretation.

Scholarship on China in Europe started with single experts like merchants and missionaries, who often learned the language and travelled to China. It was institutionalized with the first language schools. Later, the first chairs for professors of Chinese Studies were established. Today, we have more than 200 Professors of Chinese Studies in the United States (most of them Professors of History or Language), a growing number of them are US citizens of Chinese heritage or even Chinese citizens. In Europe, France seems to be the country with the most high schools and colleges where Chinese is taught as a foreign language. However, the English and German speaking countries seems to be the regions with the most Chinese Studies professors, often specializing in Traditional Literature, Modern Literature, Philosophy, History, Politics or Economy. A major difference exists between modern and traditional Chinese Studies. Since "Chinese Studies" sounds exotic, it is often considered area studies or people have a double qualification as sociologists, anthropologists, linguists, scholars of letter etc. Therefore, it is difficult to count the number of professorships, but they may range up to 20 in the German-speaking countries and # in Great Britain.

When we evaluate European Sinology, we have to come to terms with the past. For a long time, starting with philosophers in the 18th century, China was idealized or demonized. However, even after Western scholarship claimed the monopoly to interpret China, it tried to explain the so-called "stagnation" of Chinese society with "Confucianism" or with genetical/nutritional reasons. Often it were the same sinologists, who then, after China proved them wrong with its economical boom, again found the reason for this development in "Confucianism".
Similarly, a lot of Western sinologists in the 1960s demonstrated in Western streets with Mao's "red bible" in their hands.
Both times, science and scholarship was mislead by a certain expectation or single-sided understanding of China. To project one's own expectation from someone else upon him is called "ethnocentrism". International Chinese Studies has to admit that it had committed mistakes in the past as a first step to actually write something substantial in the book of the exploration of China.
Of course, not just Western Chinese Studies is to be blamed to have committed mistakes. Chinese China Studies (guoxue) was and partly is also affected by these expectations and projections caused by chauvinism and cultural relativism. A first step for Chinese China Studies would be to learn more languages, like Japanese and English, in order to be able to see their own culture through the mirror of the foreign perception.

Main contributions of European Sinology in the past were: ...#

Main contributions today concentrate on the specializations of the chairs, like ...#

=5 为何从古典文学的翻译转向中国现当代文学的翻译？=

段：除了《红楼梦》这一代表译作之外，您还翻译了包括鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱锺书、韩少功、贾平凹等在内的一批著名作家的优秀作品。可否谈谈为什么选择不同时代作家的作品？您又是如何再现他们不同的写作风格？

This question intends to know about why you choose to translate works of those writers. Is it because of personal interests or the publisher asking you to do so?
I think the section of Xu Zechen serves as good interview answers. As Chinese readers, we are desperate to know what things are like from Westerners’ perspective.

为何从古典文学的翻译转向中国现当代文学的翻译？

Why did you shift from the translation of classical literature to the translation of modern and contemporary Chinese literature?

吴：不同时代的作品反映出不同的时代背景，这些作品对我个人而言是很好的窗口，可以窥探不同时期中国的社会面貌，还可与同期的欧洲文学进行比较。贾平凹作为20世纪80年代以来中国最伟大的作家之一，英译本很少。究其原因，首先在于他的作品植根于山西农村，带有浓重的地域风俗习惯。首先读懂原文对译者来说就是一项挑战，更不用提在译入语中找到对应的表达。我在翻译贾平凹的XX中就遇到了这个问题。。。。。。。。[Can you list some difficulties when translating Jia Pingwa’s or any other author’s works? We like the details.]

The works of different times reflect different backgrounds of the times. These works are a good window for me personally. I can spy on the social outlook of China in different periods and compare them with European literature in the same period. Jia Pingwa, as one of the greatest writers in China since 1980s, has few English versions. The reason lies in the fact that his works are rooted in Shanxi rural areas and have strong regional customs. It is a challenge for translators to understand the original text first, not to mention finding the corresponding expression in the target language. I encountered this problem in translating Jia Pingwa's XX. . . . . . . .

对于译者来说，翻译不同作者的作品时面对的翻译难点不同。而不同的译者有着不同的处理方式，这也能解释为何同一部作品有几个翻译版本，且翻译策略各有不同。我深知译者的文化背景对译本翻译策略的选择有很大影响，所以有些作品即便存在译本，我还是选择重新翻译。从鲁迅的短篇小说中，我们可以读出作者内心的矛盾：文学能改变世界吗？难道一定要身体力行才能改变世界吗？难道连唤醒那些像阿Q一样任由自己被牵着走，任人宰割的昏昏欲睡的同胞们也能做到吗？当无法改变自己和社会的命运时，唤醒他们还有什么用呢？作为译者，我们如何再现这种矛盾心理，如何处理鲁迅在翻译中有些古板的早期白话，如何与他对日常政治事件的论述。这些都是翻译中必不可免的问题。目前已有的鲁迅作品德译本在这些方面的处理方式多样。巴金在受到批评后修改了三部曲之一的《家》，删除了缠足现象。在翻译这部作品的过程中，译者必须决定是翻译原版还是删减后的版本。

For translators, translation difficulties are different when translating works of different authors. Different translators have different ways of dealing with it, which can explain why there are several translated versions of the same work and the translation strategies are different. I know that the translator's cultural background has a great influence on the choice of translation strategies, so I choose to retranslate some works even if there are translations. From Lu Xun's short stories, we can read the author's inner contradiction: Can literature change the world? Do you have to practice to change the world? Can we even wake up those sleepy compatriots who let themselves be led and slaughtered like Ah Q? What's the use of awakening them when they can't change their own destiny and that of society? As translators, how do we reproduce this ambivalence, how do we deal with Lu Xun's rigid early vernacular in translation, and how do we communicate with his exposition of daily political events? These are all inevitable problems in translation. At present, the existing German versions of Lu Xun's works deal with these aspects in various ways. After being criticized, Ba Jin revised Home, one of the trilogy, and deleted foot binding. In the process of translating this work, the translator must decide whether to translate the original version or the abridged version.

我个人很喜欢徐则臣的作品。在2009年（北上2015年才出版）[Is this book called <北上>？]的法兰克福书展上，他的故事《北上》受到广泛好评。事实上，他的生活经历与我有些重叠部分。我们都在北京大学学习过，只不过他比我早入学一点（多久）。当时校园里有一种亚文化，博士生们住在餐厅旁边的闲置房间里，因为他们对大学里的人、办事流程了如指掌，而且在独立的诗歌和艺术界也有联系，所以每逢有聚会，他们都很抢手，大家竞相邀请他们参加聚会。那时的大学涌现着一股乐观主义的精神，起初门外涌现出私营商业市场，后来校园里传出“开公司”的口号。那时，毕业生不愿毕业就被分入特定的工作岗位，身上的自由和责任感促使他们闯一闯这个世界。故事里拿着盗版产品的街边小贩和软件开发产品的学生先锋也是这幅画的一部分。徐则臣将这种气氛真实地捕捉到，令人信服。他笔下的人物在我们心上扎根，爱上他们，学会在生活中打拼。也是这种情感体验上的共鸣促使我翻译《北上》这部作品。

Personally, I like Xu Zechen's works very much. At the Frankfurt Book Fair in 2009 (published in 2015), his story "Going North" was widely praised. In fact, his life experience overlaps with mine. We all studied at Peking University, but he entered school a little earlier than me. At that time, there was a subculture on campus. Doctoral students lived in idle rooms next to restaurants. Because they knew the people and procedures in the university like the back of their hand, and they also had contacts in independent poetry and art circles, they were very popular whenever there was a party, and everyone invited them to attend the party. At that time, there was a spirit of optimism in universities. At first, private commercial markets emerged outside the doors. Later, the slogan of "starting a company" came out on campus. At that time, graduates were assigned to specific jobs without graduating, and their freedom and sense of responsibility prompted them to enter the world. Street vendors with pirated products and student pioneers with software development products in the story are also part of this painting. Xu Zechen captured this atmosphere truly and convincingly. His characters take root in our hearts, fall in love with them and learn to work hard in life. It is also this resonance in emotional experience that prompted me to translate the work "North".

Es gibt viel mehr Übersetzungen westlicher Literatur in China als chinesischer Literatur im Westen. Hier hat der Westen großen Nachholbedarf. Natürlich ist es auch im heutigen China wichtig, dass endlich Paul Celan komplett ins Chinesische übersetzt wird, wofür z.B. der Dichter Wang Jiaxin Großes leistet.

There are many more translations of Western literature in China than of Chinese literature in the West. Here, the West has a lot of catching up to do. Of course, it is also important in today’s China that Paul Celan is finally translated completely into Chinese, for which, for example, the poet Wang Jiaxin is doing great things.

中国翻译的西方文学作品比西方翻译的中国文学作品多得多。在这里，西方国家还有很多事情要做。当然，在今天的中国，保罗-塞兰终于被完全翻译成中文也是很重要的，为此，比如诗人王家新就做了很大的努力。

Chinawissenschaftler müssen auch als Übersetzer arbeiten. Viele Werke chinesischer Autoren der Moderne und auch Gegenwartsautoren sind im Westen noch zu wenig bekannt. Einer der größten chinesischen Autoren seit den 1980er Jahren, Jia Pingwa liegt kaum in englischer Übersetzung vor. Der Grund ist vor allem die Schwierigkeit, seine im ländlichen Shaanxi verhafteten Geschichten, die von regionalen Sitten und Gebräuchen gefärbt sind, adäquat in die westliche Sprache zu bringen.

Chinese scholars must also work as translators. Many works by Chinese authors of the modern era and also contemporary authors are still too little known in the West. One of the greatest Chinese authors since the 1980s, Jia Pingwa is hardly available in English translation. The reason is mainly the difficulty of adequately translating his stories, which are rooted in rural Shaanxi and colored by regional customs and traditions, into Western language.

中国学者也必须从事翻译工作。中国现代和当代作家的许多作品在西方还太少为人所知。作为20世纪80年代以来中国最伟大的作家之一，贾平凹几乎没有英译本。主要原因是，他的故事植根于陕西农村，带有地域风俗和传统色彩，很难充分翻译成西方语言。

Wenn aber chinesische Literatur ein ganz selbstverständlicher Teil der Weltliteratur werden soll, muss sie von ausländischen Muttersprachlern in deren Sprache übersetzt werden. Kein englischer oder amerikanischer Leser würde freiwillig die Yang/Yang-Übersetzung des Traums der Roten Kammer lesen, wenn er auch die Hawkes/Minford-Übersetzung lesen kann. Der Übersetzer fragt sich, ob er die Namen der Bedeutung nach übersetzen soll, ob man den Traum der Roten Kammer aus Sicht des Klassenkampfes übersetzen und den Sklavencharakter der Dienstboten im Hause Jia betonen soll, auch wenn diese wieder Dienstboten hatten und die Idee des Klassenkampfes erst sehr viel später geboren wurde?

But if Chinese literature is to become a natural part of world literature, it must be translated by foreign native speakers into their language. No English or American reader would voluntarily read the Yang/Yang translation of The Dream of the Red Chamber if he could also read the Hawkes/Minford translation. The translator wonders whether to translate the names according to meaning, whether to translate the Dream of the Red Chamber from the point of view of class struggle and emphasize the slave character of the servants in the House of Jia, even though they again had servants and the idea of class struggle was born much later?

但是，中国文学要想成为世界文学的自然组成部分，就必须由外国母语者将其翻译成他们的语言。如果英美读者也能读到霍克斯/明福的译本，没有一个英美读者会主动去读杨/杨的《红楼梦》。译者在想，要不要按意思翻译名字，要不要从阶级斗争的角度来翻译《红楼梦》，要不要强调贾府中仆人的奴性，尽管他们又有仆人，阶级斗争的思想产生得更晚？

Jeder Autor muss anders übersetzt werden. Aus Lu Xuns Kurzgeschichten lässt sich seine Zerrissenheit lesen: Kann Literatur Welt verändern? Muss man körperlich aktiv werden, um die Welt zu ändern? Kann man die stumpfe Masse lethargischer Landsleute, die sich wie Ah Q zur Schlachtbank führen lassen, überhaupt aufrütteln? Nützt es etwas, sie aufzurütteln, wenn sie doch nichts an ihrem Schicksal und dem der Gesellschaft ändern können? Lu Xuns ergreifende Bilder wie das des Eisenhauses oder des Wasserbüffels wirken auch im Westen. Wie gehen wir als Übersetzer mit dem etwas antiquiert wirkenden frühen Baihua bei Lu Xun in der Übersetzung um? Wie mit seinen Polemiken über tagespolitische Ereignisse, die heute oft vergessen sind? Das sind wichtige Fragen. Die bisher vorliegenden Übersetzungen von Lu Xun im Deutschen sind heterogen.

Each author must be translated differently. From Lu Xun’s short stories, one can read his brokenness: Can literature change world? Do you have to become physically active to change the world? Is it even possible to rouse the dull mass of lethargic compatriots who allow themselves to be led to the slaughter like Ah Q? Is there any use in rousing them, when they can do nothing to change their fate and that of society? Lu Xun’s poignant images like that of the iron house or the water buffalo also have an effect in the West. As translators, how do we deal with Lu Xun’s somewhat antiquated early baihua in translation? How with his polemics about daily political events, which are often forgotten today? These are important questions. The translations of Lu Xun in German available so far are heterogeneous.

每个作者的翻译必须不同。从鲁迅的短篇小说中，可以读出他内心的矛盾。文学能改变世界吗？难道一定要身体力行才能改变世界吗？难道连唤醒那些像阿Q一样任由自己被牵着走，任人宰割的昏昏欲睡的同胞们也能做到吗？当他们无法改变自己和社会的命运时，唤醒他们还有什么用呢？鲁迅笔下的铁屋子、水牛等凄美的形象，在西方也有影响。作为译者，我们如何处理鲁迅在翻译中有些古板的早期白话？如何与他对日常政治事件的论述，今天常常被人遗忘？这些都是重要的问题。目前已有的鲁迅的德文译本异彩纷呈。

Wang Meng wurde früh mit seinem Revolutions-begeisterten schwärmerischen Jugendroman "Lang lebe die Jugend!" berühmt, in dem sich revolutionärer Enthusiasmus und Jugendliebe vermischten. Nach der Kulturrevolution und langer Zeit in Xinjiang wurde Wang Meng mit seinen Geschichten "Der Neuling in der Organisationsabteilung", "Augen der Nacht" (im Bewusstseinsstrom) und "Zäher Brei" als experimentierfreudiger und kritischer Autor bekannt. Ich habe Bücher über seine Essays am Ende meines Bachelor- und Masterstudiums geschrieben und jüngst einen Band seiner Lebenserinnerungen ins Deutsche und mit einer US-Amerikanerin zusammen ins Englische übersetzt: 《中國天機》王蒙著Wang Meng: China – enträtselt, 波鸿：欧洲大学出版社 Bochum: European University Press 2017, ISBN 978-3-86515-888-8 (E-Book ISBN 978-3-86515-889-5) [英文版]《中國天機》王蒙著Wang Meng: “China – deciphered”, 奥勒姆：美国学术出版社 Academic Press of the USA Orem 2017, 978-1-68202-888-9 (E-Book -889-6, co-translated with Licia Kim)

Wang Meng rose to fame early with his revolution-inspired rapturous youth novel "Long Live Youth!", which mixed revolutionary enthusiasm and youthful love. After the Cultural Revolution and a long time in Xinjiang, Wang Meng became known as an experimental and critical writer with his stories "The Newcomer in the Organization Department", "Eyes of Night" (in Stream of Consciousness) and "Tough Porridge". I wrote books of his essays at the end of my bachelor's and master's studies and recently translated a volume of his memoirs into German and into English together with a US-American woman: 《中國天機》王蒙著Wang Meng: China - Enträtselt, 波鸿：欧洲大学出版社 Bochum: European University Press 2017, ISBN 978-3-86515-888-8 (e-book ISBN 978-3-86515-889-5) [英文版]《中國天機》王蒙著Wang Meng: "China - deciphered," 奥勒姆：美国学术出版社 Academic Press of the USA Orem 2017, 978-1-68202-888-9 (e-book -889-6, co-translated with Licia Kim)

王蒙成名很早，他的革命题材狂欢青春小说《青春万岁！》，将革命热情和青春爱情融为一体。文革后，长期在新疆，王蒙以《组织部的新人》、《夜的眼睛》（载于《意识流》）、《熬粥》等小说而闻名于世，是一位实验性、批判性作家。我在学士和硕士毕业时写过他的散文集，最近又把他的一卷回忆录译成德文，并和一位美籍女子一起译成英文。《中国天机》王蒙著王蒙：《中国-揭秘》，波鸿：欧洲大学出版社2017年，ISBN 978-3-86515-888-8（电子书ISBN 978-3-86515-889-5）英文版]《中国天机》王蒙著王蒙：《中国-解密》，奥勒姆：美国学术出版社2017年版，978-1-68202-888-9（电子书-889-6，与Licia Kim合译）。

Von Zhu Ziqing habe ich "Die Rückenansicht" übersetzt, eine beeindruckende Hommage an seinen Vater in Form eines erzählerischen Essays.

By Zhu Ziqing, I translated "The Back View," an impressive tribute to his father in the form of a narrative essay.

作者：朱自清我翻译了《背影》，以记叙文的形式向父亲致敬，令人惊叹。

Ziemlich bekannt ist Zhus Essay "綠" (Grün), in dem er die Schönheit des Meiyu-Teichs (梅雨潭) und des Wasserfalls in den Mittleren Yandang-Bergen in Wenzhou beschreibt, die er 1923 besuchte.

Quite well known is Zhu's essay "綠" (Green), in which he described the beauty of Meiyu Pond (梅雨潭) and waterfall in the Middle Yandang Mountains in Wenzhou, which he visited in 1923.

颇为著名的是朱自清的《绿》一文。其中描述了他1923年到温州雁荡山中段梅雨潭和瀑布的美景。

Bing Xin ist eine bekannte Kinderbuchautorin, die nach der Kulturrevolution ihre Reihe „Briefe an die Kinder“ nahtlos fortsetzte, als wäre nichts geschehen.

Bing Xin is a well-known children's author who seamlessly continued her series of "Letters to Children " after the Cultural Revolution as if nothing had happened.

冰心是著名的儿童文学作家，她在 "文革 "后无缝衔接地继续她的 "给孩子的信 "系列，仿佛什么都没有发生过。

Ba Jin hat unvergleichliche Literatur hinterlassen, seine Trilogie „Die Familie“ hat er nach Kritik überarbeitet und zum Beispiel das Phänomen des Füßebindens gestrichen. Hier muss der Übersetzer entscheiden, ob er die Ursprungs-Fassung oder die überarbeitete übersetzen möchte.

Ba Jin left behind incomparable literature; he revised his trilogy "The Family" after criticism and, for example, deleted the phenomenon of foot-binding. Here, the translator must decide whether to translate the original version or the revised one.

巴金留下了不可多得的文学作品，他在批评后修改了三部曲《家》，比如删除了缠足现象。在这里，译者必须决定是翻译原版还是修订版。

Qian Zhongshu ist der weltläufigste chinesische Schriftsteller seiner Zeit, seine anspruchsvollen Texte zu übersetzen bereitet Freude, da er sich in europäischer Literatur gut auskennt und Motive aus zahlreichen westlichen Werken zitiert oder auf diese anspielt. Sowohl sein Roman "Umzingelte Festung" (Weicheng, 1947), der das Leben eines Universitäts-Dozenten-Ehepaares thematisiert, ist unvergessen, als auch seine vier meisterhaften Kurzgeschichten "Human, Beast, Ghost" (1946). Seine anspruchsvollen Essays aus den Sammlungen "Written in the Margins of Life" (1941), Guanzhui bian (1979-80) und Patchwork: Seven Essays on Art and Literature zeigen, wie Qian Zhongshu meisterhaft die verschiedenen Erscheinungsformen des Teufels durch die Weltliteratur folgt als auch philosophisch über die Funktion von Fenstern und Türen räsoniert.

Qian Zhongshu is the most worldly Chinese writer of his time; translating his sophisticated texts is a pleasure, as he is well versed in European literature and quotes or alludes to motifs from numerous Western works. Both his novel "Encircled Fortress" (Weicheng, 1947), which focuses on the life of a university lecturer couple, and his four masterful short stories "Human, Beast, Ghost" (1946) are unforgotten. His sophisticated essays from the collections Written in the Margins of Life (1941), Guanzhui bian (1979-80), and Patchwork: Seven Essays on Art and Literature show how Qian Zhongshu masterfully follows the various manifestations of the devil through world literature as well as philosophically ruminates on the function of windows and doors.

钱钟书是中国当代最具世界性的作家，翻译他的复杂文字是一种享受，因为他精通欧洲文学，并引用或暗示了众多西方作品的主题。无论是他以大学讲师夫妇生活为题材的小说《包围堡垒》（潍城，1947年），还是他的四部杰作短篇小说《人、兽、鬼》（1946年），都让人难以忘怀。他从《写在生活的边缘》（1941年）、《观水扁》（1979-80年）、《拼凑：七篇艺术与文学论文》等文集中的精致文章，展示了钱钟书如何娴熟地通过世界文学追寻魔鬼的各种表现形式，以及对门窗功能的哲学思考。

Han Shaogong, bekannt durch seine Führung der literarischen Bewegung "Root-seeking literature" (xungen) beschreibt in seinen zahlreichen Erzählungen mit seiner präzisen, geduldsamen und unabhängigen Stimme die Einzigartigkeit von Hunans ländlicher Kultur. Ich habe mit großer Freude zwei seiner Erzählungen übersetzt: 《怒目金刚》韩少功著, Han Shaogong. Der zornige Blick von Buddhas Wächter. 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-216-9 《空院残月》韩少功著, Han Shaogong. Der verblassende Mond über dem verlassenen Innenhof, 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press 2018, ISBN 9783865152176

Han Shaogong, known for his leadership of the Root-seeking literature (xungen) literary movement, describes the uniqueness of Hunan's rural culture in his many narratives with his precise, patient, and independent voice. I have translated two of his narratives with great pleasure: 《怒目金刚》韩少功著, Han Shaogong. The angry look of Buddha's guardian. 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-216-9. 《空院残月》韩少功著, Han Shaogong. The fading moon over the deserted courtyard, 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press 2018, ISBN 9783865152176.

以领导寻根文学(xungen)文学运动而闻名于世的韩少功，在他的大量叙述中，以其准确、耐心、独立的声音，描述了湖南乡村文化的独特性。我非常高兴地翻译了他的两篇叙事。《怒目金刚》韩少功著，韩少功。佛陀护法愤怒的样子。德国波鸿：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-216-9（销售量：1000）。《空院残月》韩少功著，韩少功。荒芜庭院上的凋零的月亮》，德国波鸿：欧洲大学出版社Bochum：欧洲大学出版社2018年，ISBN 9783865152176（销售量：1000）。

Yu Qiuyu ist ein großartiger chinesischer Drama- und Kunsthistoriker und Schriftsteller, der einen guten Überblick über die moderne chinesische Kunstgeschichte hat und diese in verständlichen Worten zu vermitteln weiß. Seine Stimme hatte nicht nur in der chinesischen Kulturbürokratie und in Taiwan Gehör, er scheute auch die Auseinandersetzung nicht, die seine Berichte an das Kulturministerium und seine Inspektionsreisen produzierten. Vor den Vereinten Nationen setzte er sich gegen die polarisierende Pamphlet Samuel P. Huntington's vom "Clash of Civilizations" ein und wurde Dekan an der Fakultät für Geisteswissenschaften der Macao University of Science and Technology. Ich habe von ihm zwei Bücher übersetzt: 《昆曲纵论》余秋雨著, Yu Qiuyu. Über die Kun-Oper 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-215-2 《书法史述》余秋雨著Yu, Qiuyu: Geschichte der Kalligraphie in Erzählform / Yu Qiuyu ; 波鸿：欧洲大学出版社 Bochum: Europ. Univ.-vlg. 2017, Reihe Sinica 44, ISBN 978-3-86515-218-3

Yu Qiuyu is a great Chinese drama and art historian and writer who has a good overview of modern Chinese art history and knows how to convey it in understandable terms. His voice was not only heard in the Chinese cultural bureaucracy and in Taiwan, he also did not shy away from the controversy that his reports to the Ministry of Culture and his inspection tours produced. At the United Nations, he lobbied against Samuel P. Huntington's polarizing pamphlet of the "Clash of Civilizations" and became dean at the Faculty of Humanities at Macao University of Science and Technology. I have translated two books by him: 《昆曲纵论》余秋雨著, Yu Qiuyu. On Kun Opera 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-215-《书法史述》余秋雨著Yu, Qiuyu: History of calligraphy in narrative form / Yu Qiuyu ; 波鸿：欧洲大学出版社 Bochum: Europ. Univ.-vlg. 2017, Sinica 44 series, ISBN 978-3-86515-218-3.

余秋雨是一位伟大的中国戏剧艺术史家和作家，他对中国现代艺术史有很好的概括，知道如何用通俗易懂的语言来传达。他的声音不仅在中国文化官僚机构和台湾有了听众，他也不避讳他向文化部的报告和考察所产生的争议。在联合国，他游说反对塞缪尔-P-亨廷顿的 "文明冲突 "的极端化小册子，并担任澳门科技大学人文学院院长。我曾翻译过他的两本书。《昆曲纵论》余秋雨著，余秋雨。On Kun Opera 德国波鸿：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-215-2. 书法史述》余秋雨著/余秋雨 ; 波鸿：欧洲大学出版社波鸿：Europ. Univ.-vlg. 2017, Sinica 44 series, ISBN 978-3-86515-218-3.

Xu Zechen liegt mir persönlich sehr am Herzen. Auf der Frankfurter Buchmesse 2009# kam seine Erzählung „Im Laufschritt durch Peking“ gut an. Ich habe einen persönlichen Bezug zu seinen Geschichten, da er kurz vor mir an der Peking-Universität studiert hat. Damals gab es auf dem Campus eine Art Subkultur, Doktoranden, die in ungenutzten Räumen neben den Restaurants wohnten und begehrte Partyteilnehmer waren, da sie die Universität incl. Personen, Abläufe und Gepflogenheiten wie ihre Westentasche kannten und Kontakte in die freie Dichter- und Künstlerszene hatten. Es herrschte eine Aufbruchstimmung an der Universität, zunächst entstanden vor den Toren privatwirtschaftliche Märkte, später hörte man das Motto „eine Firma eröffnen“ (kai gongsi) auf dem Campus. Damals begann es, dass die Absolventen nicht mehr nur auf einen Beruf zugeteilt wurden, sondern sich selbst darum kümmerten und sowohl Freiheit wie Verantwortung spürten. Auch Straßenhändler mit Raubkopien und studentische Pioniere der Software-Entwicklung gehörten zu diesem Bild. Xu Zechen erfasst diese Atmosphäre authentisch und fesselnd. Wir fiebern mit seinen Charakteren mit, verlieben uns mit ihnen und lernen, uns durchs Leben zu schlagen. Von ihm habe ich folgendes Buch übersetzt:《啊北京》徐则臣著 Xu Zechen: Ach, Peking!, 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社 Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-220-7

Xu Zechen is very close to my heart personally. At the 2009# Frankfurt Book Fair, his story "Running through Beijing" was well received. I have a personal connection to his stories because he studied at Peking University shortly before me. At that time there was a kind of subculture on campus, doctoral students who lived in unused rooms next to the restaurants and were sought-after party participants, since they knew the university incl. people, procedures and customs like the back of their hand and had contacts in the independent poetry and art scene. There was a spirit of optimism at the university; at first, private markets sprang up outside the gates, and later the slogan "open a company" (kai gongsi) was heard on campus. It was then that graduates began to feel both freedom and responsibility, rather than being assigned to a job. Street vendors with pirated products and student pioneers of software development were also part of this picture. Xu Zechen captures this atmosphere authentically and compellingly. We root for his characters, fall in love with them, and learn to make our way through life. From him, I have translated the following book:《啊北京》徐则臣著 Xu Zechen: Ah, Beijing, 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社 Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-220-7.

徐则臣个人对我的感情很深。在2009年法兰克福书展上#，他的故事《跑过北京》受到好评。我和他的故事有切身的联系，因为他比我早在北京大学读书不久。当时校园里有一种亚文化，博士生们住在餐厅旁边的闲置房间里，是很抢手的聚会参与者，因为他们对大学里的人、程序和风俗习惯了如指掌，而且在独立的诗歌和艺术界也有联系。大学里有一种乐观主义的精神，起初门外涌现出私营商业市场，后来校园里传出 "开公司"（kai gongsi）的口号。那时，毕业生们开始感受到自由和责任，而不是被分配到一个工作岗位上。拿着盗版产品的街边小贩和软件开发的学生先锋也是这幅画的一部分。徐则臣将这种气氛真实地捕捉到，令人信服。我们为他笔下的人物扎根，爱上他们，学会在生活中打拼。我从他那里翻译了以下书：《啊北京》徐则臣著徐则臣。啊，北京，德国波鸿：欧洲大学出版社波鸿：欧洲大学出版社，ISBN 978-3-86515-220-7。

Einer der wichtigsten chinesischen Schriftsteller der Gegenwart ist Han Han. Viele kennen ihn nur als Rennfahrer, Blogger, Sänger oder ähnliches. Aber diese Eigenschaft des „Multi-Artist“ ist ein Teil seines Schriftstellertums. Ich habe ihn in der modernen Harvard Literaturgeschichte Chinas mit einem Kapitel vorgestellt. An der Harvard-Universität und auf der AAS-Konferenz in den USA habe ich Han Han mit Lu Xun verglichen: Beide waren Meinungsführer, stritten sich auch öffentlich und es ging um ähnliche Themen. Allerdings verdankte Lu Xun seine Autorität seiner Gelehrsamkeit und Wortkunst, Han Han seiner Berühmtheit als Celebrity. Han Hans Werke sind schwer zu übersetzen, da er über einen großen Wortschatz und klassische Zitate verfügt, und da der Handlungsfaden seiner Erzählungen Kapriolen schlägt, die durch wörtlich genommene Redensarten, Metaphern oder Allegorien ausgelöst werden, und diese uneigentliche Rede in der Übersetzung oft andere Bedeutungen hat oder schlicht nicht existiert, ist er einer der am schwersten zu übersetzenden Autoren. Han Han hat mit seinen grotesken Elementen und tragischen Helden eine neue Literatur, die des kritischen Surrealismus geschaffen, die durchaus an Miguel de Cervantes und Lu Xun heranreicht.

One of the most important contemporary Chinese writers is Han Han. Many know him only as a racing driver, blogger, singer or the like. But this characteristic of being a "multi-artist" is a part of his writing. I featured him with a chapter in the modern Harvard Literary History of China. At Harvard University and at the AAS conference in the US, I compared Han Han with Lu Xun: Both were opinion leaders, also argued publicly, and the issues were similar. However, Lu Xun owed his authority to his scholarship and wordcraft, Han Han to his celebrity fame. Han Han's works are difficult to translate because of his large vocabulary and classical quotations, and because the plot thread of his stories makes capers triggered by literal idioms, metaphors, or allegories, and this inauthentic speech often has other meanings in translation or simply does not exist, he is one of the most difficult authors to translate. Han Han, with his grotesque elements and tragic heroes, has created a new literature, that of critical surrealism, which certainly comes close to Miguel de Cervantes and Lu Xun.

当今中国最重要的作家之一是韩寒。很多人只知道他是赛车手、博主、歌手之类的身份。但这种 "多艺人 "的特点，也是他作为作家的一部分。我在《中国现代哈佛文学史》中用一章来介绍他。在哈佛大学和美国的AAS会议上，我把韩寒和鲁迅做了比较。两人都是意见领袖，也公开争论过，问题也很相似。然而，鲁迅的权威归功于他的学识和词藻，韩寒归功于他的名人名气。韩寒的作品由于词汇量大，经典语录多，而且他的叙事情节线索帽，由字面的成语、隐喻或寓言引发，这种不真实的言语在翻译中往往有其他含义或根本不存在，所以他是最难翻译的作家之一。韩寒以其怪诞的元素和悲剧性的英雄，创造了一种新的文学，那就是批判超现实主义的文学，这当然接近于米格尔-德-塞万提斯和鲁迅。

=6 跨文化身份=
段：作为汉学家和翻译家，您的跨文化身份让你置身于东西方文明之间。当您从欧洲文化和文学背景来到中国的文化和文学背景中，在两种迥异的语言之间进行转换，是否感到自己的思维方式和行文风格发生了些许改变？

[This question asks you whether living in China for almost eight years affects your translating ideologies? Is there any difference if you only learned Chinese but never lived in China for such a long time? ]

吴：在欧洲，很多孩子最多学习五种语言。我也是多国语言的人，在外语国家和文化中度过了很多时间。在我看来，语言和国界似乎不如那些以这些语言和文化为家，并且（通过互联网、全球化和旅行自由）在这些地区之间越来越独立地移动的人们重要。我们无法选择我们出生的地方，但我们可以选择我们想要生活的地方。迄今为止，我在美国生活了四年，在中国生活了八年。那我是不是就不如中国人的美国人了？当我生活在中国，发现自己在做中文白日梦的时候，我偶尔会忘记自己其实是德国人。文化让我们充实，让我们受教育，让我们变得文明，让我们发挥出最好的一面。

In Europe, many children learn up to five languages. I, too, am multilingual and have spent a lot of time in foreign-language countries and cultures. Language and country borders seem less important to me than the people who are at home in these languages and cultures and who (through the Internet, globalization, and freedom to travel) move more and more independently between these areas. We can't choose where we are born, but we can choose where we want to live. I have lived in the U.S. for four years and in China for eight years so far. Does that make me less American than Chinese? When I live in China and catch myself daydreaming in Chinese, I occasionally forget that I'm actually German. Culture fulfills us, educates us, makes us civilized, it brings out the best in us.

对文化和地域的认同，会产生家的感觉，对地方和同胞产生依恋。但被意识形态利用的不也是这个民族或文化吗？什么力量能够让一个人去打仗，结束别人的生命？是不是所有的意识形态一旦引诱人们去杀人，就会被证明是虚假的？作为世界之间的转换者，作为欧洲对中国的一种学术大使，反之亦然，这两个伟大文明之间任何基于意识形态的敌意在我看来都是寒酸的--只有民族之间的友谊，带着好奇和尊重相遇，才值得超越国界。连莎士比亚都认识到，爱情不仅可以消除敌对宗族之间的隔阂，还可以揭露敌意的谬误。

Identification with a culture and region creates feelings of home and attachment to places and compatriots. But isn't it also this nation or culture that has been exploited by ideologies? What power is capable of making a person go to war and end another person's life? Don't all ideologies, once they have seduced people into killing, turn out to be false? As a shifter between worlds, as a kind of academic ambassador of Europe in China and vice versa, any ideologically based hostility between these two great civilizations seems shabby to me - Only the friendship of peoples, meeting each other curiously and respectfully is worthy to overcome borders. Shakespeare already recognized that love can not only overcome the gulf between hostile clans, but also expose the error of enmity.

=7 中西合璧=
吴：有人认为中华文化走出去最好的译介模式是“中西合璧”，如葛浩文和林丽君的译作在国内外产生了较大影响。您对此有何看法？[I think this answer is rather insufficient. ]

吴：什么是理想的译者？韦努蒂认为译者应该是隐身的，看不见的。如果读者没有注意到所读文本是一个译本，那么译者就达到了完美的境界。

What is an ideal translator? Venuti believes that translators should be invisible and invisible. If the reader doesn't notice that the text he reads is a translation, then the translator has reached a perfect state.

我认为，翻译绝对要来自目标文化和语言。只有这样的译者才能向目标读者传达他自己想要传达的形象。源文化和语言的译者未必是目标文化和语言的主人。当然，真正的双语翻译，在两种文化和语言中成长得差不多，并且精通两种文化和语言的人，在这里是最好的。

I think that a translator must necessarily come from the target culture and language. Only this translator is able to convey to the target readership the image that he himself wants to convey. Translators from the source culture and language may not be masters of the target culture and language. Of course, a truly bilingual translator who has grown up in both cultures and languages about equally and has mastered them would be best here.

此外，如果译者从事另一种职业，即源文本作者的职业，如小说家或诗人，那就更好了。他还应该熟悉源文本的写作时间和环境。他不应该让文本比原作'更好'，但他应该能够接近原作。

Furthermore, it would be good if the translator practiced another profession, that of the source text author, e.g. novelist or poet. He should also be familiar with the time and environment in which the source text was written. He should not make the text 'better' than the original, but he should be able to approach the original.

译文总是一种新的创造，它在文字上不能再模仿原文，而在功能、效果等方面却可以再现原文的特点，所以葛浩文和林丽君这样的“中西合璧”的组合在翻译极具中国特色的作品时应该会比较合适。

Translation is always a new creation. It can no longer imitate the original text in words, but can reproduce the characteristics of the original text in terms of function and effect. Therefore, the combination of "Chinese and Western combination" such as Ge Haowen and Lin Lijun should be more appropriate when translating works with Chinese characteristics.

=8 中华文化外译传播=
段：根据您的实践经验和理性思考，中华文化外译传播有哪些成功因素?

吴：首先，对于普通读者而言，接受《红楼梦》第一步就必须有可读的译本，因此《红楼梦》在其它没有译本的国家的传播有赖于译者的工作。我认为等待引进不如主动输出。这样成功的例子不是没有。20世纪80年代，杨宪益倡议出版熊猫丛书，意在向国外译介中国当代、现代和古代的优秀作品，所出版的杂志和从书在国外有相当大的影响，几乎成为很长时期内国外研究中国汉学、对中国文学有兴趣的人了解中国文学的唯一的窗口。因此，中国相关机构可借鉴当时的经验，在还没有译本的欧洲国家作出尝试。

First of all, for ordinary readers, the first step to accept a Dream of Red Mansions is to have a readable translation, so the dissemination of a Dream of Red Mansions in other countries without a translation depends on the translator's work. I think it is better to take the initiative to export than to wait for import. There are not no such successful examples. In 1980s, Yang Xianyi initiated the publication of Panda Series, aiming at translating and introducing excellent works of contemporary, modern and ancient China to foreign countries. The published magazines and books have a considerable influence abroad, and have almost become the only window for people who study Chinese Sinology abroad and are interested in Chinese literature to understand Chinese literature for a long time. Therefore, relevant Chinese institutions can learn from the experience at that time and try in European countries that have not yet translated them.

其次，西方尤其是美国的《红楼梦》研究开始用现代理论解读《红楼梦》，如 “感觉”、“同性恋”等。因此在每隔几年举办一次的红学会议上，整理以前的研究，撰写一部西方学术界与小说接触史就显得十分重要。

Secondly, the study of "A Dream of Red Mansions" in the West, especially in the United States, began to interpret "A Dream of Red Mansions" with modern theories, such as "feeling" and "homosexuality". Therefore, it is very important to sort out the previous research and write a history of contact between western academic circles and novels at the Redology Conference held every few years.

我很早就开始关注《红楼梦》在西方的接受情况。其刚进入西方世界之时并不是一片叫好，直至被列为世界文学的一部分，这一过程持续了很多年。一方面是因为完整的译本直至XX年才出现，另一方面是因为许多西方汉学家和译者的民族中心主义世界观，他们认为只有本土的文学才称得上世界文学，而对别国文学视若无睹。在我看来，跨越时间空间，对优秀作品的认同还是同样的，因此《红楼梦》应该成为世界文化遗产。

I began to pay attention to the acceptance of A Dream of Red Mansions in the West very early. When it first entered the western world, it was not applauded until it was listed as a part of world literature, which lasted for many years. On the one hand, the complete translation did not appear until XX years; On the other hand, it is because many western sinologists and translators have an ethnocentric world outlook. They think that only local literature can be called world literature and turn a blind eye to other countries' literature. In my opinion, across time and space, the recognition of excellent works is the same, so A Dream of Red Mansions should become a world cultural heritage.

最后，中国文化作品的译介研究不能仅仅依靠本土研究者、译者，还需要目标语国家的同人鼎力相助。就《红楼梦》而言，对其翻译的研究不在少数，但遗憾的是，其中研究者多为中国学者，他们研究时没有与本土学者交流。但我认为，为了提升学术质量，中国学者的学术成果在发表前应由本土学者审查。无论如何，无论在中国还是在西方，一个新的领域就是小说的跨文化研究。

Finally, the translation and introduction of Chinese cultural works can not only rely on local researchers and translators, but also need the full help of colleagues in the target language countries. As far as A Dream of Red Mansions is concerned, there are not a few studies on its translation, but unfortunately, most of the researchers are Chinese scholars, and they did not communicate with local scholars during their research. However, I think that in order to improve the academic quality, the academic achievements of Chinese scholars should be reviewed by local scholars before publication. In any case, whether in China or in the West, a new field is the cross-cultural study of novels.

=9 提建议=
段：您自1990年代来华留学，在华生活多年。作为中西文化的“摆渡人”，您是如何坚持翻译中国经典著作的？您对中德文化交流的未来发展前景有何预见？[What is the future of China-Germany Exchange in your opinion? ]是否可以给年青一代的汉学家、翻译家提出一些建议？

吴：题中的“摆渡人”形象很好，“摆渡人”的形象历来是正面的，在欧洲也是俗称的“好听话”，这也是世界文学中的典型主题。在近5000年前（公元前2600年）的文学作品《吉尔伽美什史诗》就讲述了摆渡人乌尔-萨纳比带国王渡过死亡之水的故事。摆渡人是两个世界的纽带，起着至关重要的作用。其实，译者本身就是一个“摆渡人”，他/她将作者的思想境界、梦境、想象告诉读者，把读者带入目标语环境之中。

The image of "ferryman" in the question is very good. The image of "ferryman" has always been positive. It is also commonly known as "good obedience" in Europe, which is also a typical theme in world literature. Nearly 5,000 years ago (2600 BC), the literary work "Gilgamesh Epic" tells the story of ferryman Ur Sanabi who took the king through the water of death. The ferryman is the link between the two worlds and plays a vital role. In fact, the translator himself is a "ferryman". He/she tells the reader the author's ideological realm, dreams and imagination, and brings the reader into the target language environment.

学生时代时我就发现，中国学生都知道歌德、莎士比亚、海涅，而西方几乎没有人知道屈原、李白、苏东坡、曹雪芹，对此我感到非常震惊。尽管翻译工作在西方不被视为学术研究，没有受到高度重视，但我个人把中国文学作品，特别是名著和经典作品翻译成德文看作毕生的事业。我还在德国维藤建立了一个翻译工作坊，专门鼓励年轻一代的毕业生，为他们争取翻译项目，通常是将中国文学作品译成德语和英语，目前已经翻译出了。。。。。。。。

[What translations have been published/done in your translation workshop in Germany? ]
When I was a student, I found that Chinese students all knew Goethe, Shakespeare and Heine, while almost no one in the West knew Qu Yuan, Li Bai, Su Dongpo and Cao Xueqin. I was very shocked. Although translation is not regarded as an academic research in the West and is not highly valued, I personally regard the translation of Chinese literary works, especially famous works and classic works, into German as a lifelong career. I also set up a translation workshop in Witten, Germany, to encourage the younger generation of graduates and strive for translation projects for them. Usually, Chinese literary works are translated into German and English, which have already been translated. . . . . . . .

当然，从翻译的本质上来说，这是一项语言服务。没有这种服务，研究就无法实现。多了解中国文化，对德国文化没有坏处。而德国民众通常不懂中文，因此通过翻译获得资讯似乎是唯一方式。不过对于专业从事中国文学创作的人来说，当然建议掌握汉语能力，因为读原著永远比读译著更真实。

Of course, translation is essentially a language service. Without this service, research cannot be realized. Knowing more about Chinese culture will do no harm to German culture. German people usually don't understand Chinese, so getting information through translation seems to be the only way. However, for those who specialize in Chinese literary creation, it is of course recommended to master Chinese ability, because reading the original works is always more authentic than reading the translated works.

=10 译研结合=

段：作为世界汉学研究会会长，您组织了多场与汉学相关的国际会议，包括一年一度的世界汉学研究大会（WACS），持续向世界展示中华文化的魅力。您既是译者，又是研究者，您如何看待这两个身份之间的转换？您对从事译研结合的学者有何建议吗？

吴：在西方，学者的地位普遍高于译者。不过，就我而言，译者的工作还是很重要的，因为科学有赖于源头的发展（The work of the translator is nevertheless important, since science depends on the development of sources.）。最重要的是，如果没有翻译，大众就无法认识和了解外国语言与文化。因此，我既做翻译，也做学术研究，一方面是有时在翻译的过程中发现某个学术研究的选题或者已有选题再翻译中找到了一个突破点；另一方面，有时做学术研究需要阅读一些中国文学作品，但发现并没有德译本，所以干脆自己动手翻译。

In the West, the status of scholars is generally higher than that of translators. However, as far as I am concerned, the translator's work is still very important, because science depends on the development of the source. Most importantly, without translation, the public cannot know and understand foreign languages and cultures. Therefore, I do both translation and academic research; On the one hand, I sometimes find a breakthrough point in the process of translation when I find a topic of an academic research or in the re-translation of an existing topic; On the other hand, sometimes it is necessary to read some Chinese literary works for academic research, but it is found that there is no German translation, so I simply translate it myself.

翻译批评现在在中国是比较热门的学术研究方向，拿《红楼梦》为例。我个人认为，做相关翻译批评的学者首先自己也应该是作家，有自己的代表作，或者翻译过一定的作品。此外，做翻译批评时最好将对象锁定为译本语言是母语的作品。如果一个人对自己的源语言掌握得很好，就能够分辨出字里行间的引申义和细微的差别，更好地评估选词、文体等是否得当。但可惜的是，中国红学届或者翻译学届几乎没有人具备这样的条件。

Translation criticism is now a popular academic research direction in China. Take a Dream of Red Mansions as an example. Personally, I think that scholars who do relevant translation criticism should first be writers themselves, have their own representative works, or have translated certain works. In addition, when making translation criticism, it is best to target works whose translation language is the mother tongue. If a person has a good grasp of his source language, he can distinguish the extended meaning and subtle differences between the lines, and better evaluate whether the choice of words and styles are appropriate. However, unfortunately, few people in the Chinese Redology or Translation Studies have such conditions.

我每年邀请100多位同事到自己的领域讲课，主要是觉得人的一生都是可以学习的，通过更多的视角和会议间隙的讨论，可以向同事学习，拓宽自己的视野。

When I invite more than 100 colleagues to lecture on their field every year, it is mainly because I think that one can learn throughout one's life, that one can learn from colleagues and broaden one's horizons through more perspectives and the discussions on the sidelines of the conference.

另外，我还建议做翻译的同仁一定要去原语/目标语国家生活一段时间。截至目前，我在中国生活了八年，每隔一段时间，新的表达方式都会扑面而来，每天都在学习，自然对我研究和翻译都有帮助。

In addition, I also suggest that colleagues who do translation must live in the source/target language countries for a period of time. Up to now, I have lived in China for eight years. Every once in a while, new expressions come to me and I study every day. Naturally, it is helpful for my research and translation.

=11 国际汉学中心=

段：您是湖南师范大学“潇湘学者”特聘教授，并担任国际汉学中心主任。请问：该中心主要从事工作？您未来计划开展哪些项目推动中德文化交流？

吴：国际汉学研究中心是国内国学与海外汉学研究的桥梁。来自世界各地、不同背景的学者，可以依托这个平台进行交流合作。

我们从香港引进了来自美国的Margaret Chu，她在2021年初刚被聘为澳门科技大学副教授。她作为中心的兼职高级研究员，负责联系各国学者，评估和审阅中心的研究成果。朱女士还负责引进了许多同仁，包括来自牛津、加州和马萨诸塞州的同仁。

另外，四位来自德国的学者已经被聘为外国语学院教授，其中两名也将加盟国际汉学研究中心。来自卡尔斯鲁厄的哲学家Ole Döring和来自杜塞尔多夫的历史学家Cord Eberspächer，他曾在那里担任孔子学院院长。

中心的研究员正在共同构思编写《中国研究史》，包括有一卷总论和十卷单行本，该书预计将以英文、德文和中文同时出版。

除此以外，中心正在研究四大名著，特别是《红楼梦》在西方的参与史。

在现代文学中，我们看鲁迅，包括他与欧洲作家和改革教育家的相识。从国际汉学的角度看，钱钟书也很有意思，他的文章中充满了对西方文学的引用。

中心支持将中文书籍翻译成英语和德语。因此，翻译了许多小说、短篇小说和非小说类书籍。

The International Sinology Research Center is a bridge between domestic Sinology and overseas Sinology research. Scholars from all over the world and from different backgrounds can rely on this platform for exchanges and cooperation.

We introduced Margaret Chu from the United States from Hong Kong. She was just hired as an associate professor at Macau University of Science and Technology in early 2021. As a part-time senior researcher of the Center, she is responsible for contacting scholars from all over the world to evaluate and review the research results of the Center. Ms Zhu is also responsible for bringing in many colleagues, including colleagues from Oxford, California and Massachusetts.

In addition, four scholars from Germany have been hired as professors of the Foreign Languages Institute, and two of them will join the International Sinology Research Center. Ole D ö ring, a philosopher from Karlsruhe, and Cord Ebersp ä cher, a historian from D ü sseldorf, where he served as the dean of Confucius Institute.

Researchers at the Center are jointly conceiving the compilation of "History of Chinese Studies", including a general book and ten singles, which is expected to be published in English, German and Chinese at the same time.

In addition, the center is studying the participation history of Four Great Classical Novels, especially A Dream of Red Mansions in the West.

In the area of modern literature, we look at Lu Xun, including his acquaintance with European writers and reform educators. Qian Zhongshu is also interesting from the perspective of international Chinese studies; his texts are full of references to Western literature.

The Center supports the translation of Chinese books into English and German. Thus, numerous novels, short stories and non-fiction books have been translated.

=12. 《红楼梦》跟今天国内外的读者有什么关系？=
段：《红楼梦》跟今天国内外的读者有什么关系？

Woesler: The novel is an embodiment of “Zeitgeist”.

吴：小说作为 "时代精神 "的体现。

According to Georg Lukács’ Theory of the Novel, while the Epos (like Homer’s Ilias, which like the Dream reasons the stories in the divine realm) displayed a holistic world experience, a complete, self-contained culture, the novel displays, that the modern world has become infinitely large and has lost its homely quality.

根据格奥尔格-卢卡奇的小说理论，虽然Epos（像荷马的伊利亚斯，它像梦理由神界的故事）展示了一个整体的世界经验，一个完整的，自足的文化，小说展示，现代世界已经变得无限大，已经失去了它的家的品质。

The novel as a genre is no longer documenting just one culture, but represents, with the words of Walter Benjamin, the Organon of History. So the understanding of the novel changed with Lukacs to historical-philosophically. A novel is understood as typical for its historical era, the novel embodies the spirit of the epoch (Zeitgeist).

小说作为一种文体，不再只是记录一种文化，而是用瓦尔特-本雅明的话说，代表了历史的有机体。所以，对小说的理解随着卢卡奇的改变，变成了历史哲学的理解。小说被理解为其历史时代的典型，小说体现了时代精神（Zeitgeist）。

The Red Chamber Dreams are written in front of the background of the Manchu minority having taken over the power in formerly Han-shaped Ming-China (which was a multi-ethnic and crosscultural society) and families suffering the changing favor of changing emperors, with the Cao family being fostered by Kangxi and being persecuted by Yongzheng.

《红楼梦》写的是满族少数民族在原汉字形的明中国（这是一个多民族、跨文化的社会）掌握了政权，家庭遭受换代皇帝的宠爱，曹家被康熙扶植，被雍正迫害的背景前。

While the author in his time could not criticize the system and power of emperors, in the novel he came to terms with this life by seeking the guilt for the persecution in the growing decadence of the family (engaging in Daoism, leisure, poetry-writing, arts and music instead of learning for being able to earn a living) and in himself not fulfilling the expectations as the family heir. This description of decadence of a declining family reminds us of the novels of Tschechov (and e.g. in the Buddenbrooks by Mann, including the turn to arts and music).

虽然作者在他的时代无法批判帝制和皇权，但在小说中，他为家族的日益衰败（参加道教、娱乐、诗歌、艺术和音乐活动，而不是为了谋生而学习）和自己作为家族继承人没有实现家族期望感到自责，通过这样做，他也对这种生活做妥协。这种对没落家族颓废状况的描写，让我们想起了契诃夫的小说（如曼恩的《布登布鲁克》，包括对艺术和音乐的转向）

Moreover, with the detailed description of life on all social levels in early Qing Dynasty, the Dream appears as a documentary historical novel very much like Günter Grass’ The Tin Drum 1959.

此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的《铁皮鼓1959》非常相似，《铁皮鼓1959》是一部纪实历史小说。

=13. 曹雪芹和跨国文化=

段：从跨国文化的角度看曹雪芹你有合想法？

Woesler: Cao Xueqin and even more his protagonist Jia Baoyu both are early humanists, universalists and world citizens. The Red Chamber Dreams function worldwide. The Dream is a complex showroom of diverse aspects of Chinese cultures and is the embodiment and essence of Chinese cultures, but it has also a global impact, therefore it should be honoured as “World Documentary Heritage”.

吴：曹雪芹，尤其是他的主人公贾宝玉，都是早期的人文主义者，普世主义者和世界公民。《红楼梦》具有普世价值。《红楼梦》综合展示了中国的多元文化，是中国文化的集中体现和精华，同时在全球范围内产生影响，理应列入世界记忆遗产名录。

Cao Xueqin’s message is not simply the one of “Paradise Lost”, instead he himself made the best out of his life. Although being less wealthy than when his family still enjoyed the favour of the emperor, there was a payroll system and a social net intact in Early Qing China, where he received enough income to be independent from his rich relatives, to be selective on accepting jobs, to live a relaxed life in a small house in the nature, spending time with his family and friends, follow his own interests, like reading, writing and drinking wine, making kites for the children and thinking of the disadvantaged.

曹雪芹所传达的信息并不是简单的“失乐园”，相反，他把自己的生活过得很好。虽然比起他的家族享受皇帝的宠爱，他过得没有那么富裕，但清初中国有一套薪俸制度和一张完整的社会网，他获得了足够的收入，可以独立于富贵亲戚，可以有选择性地接受工作，可以在大自然的小房子里过着悠闲的生活，可以与家人和朋友共度时光，可以追随自己的兴趣，例如读书，写作和饮酒，可以为孩子们做风筝，可以为弱势群体着想。

Cao Xueqin was fully aware of his time and China’s cultural achievements, he was familiar with the different levels of society, he was a detailed observer and skilful narrator. He may have conceptualized the ending of the novel as a discussion about the different personalities of the characters in the novel and therefore displaying his reflection about life and his psychological understanding of the diversity of human nature. He was able to grasp the “spirit of time” (Zeitgeist) and with his autobiographical experience create an eternal coming-of-age novel not just for his family, for the Qing-Chinese, for Chinese people, but for mankind.

曹雪芹对自己所处的时代和中国的文化成就了如指掌，他熟悉社会的不同层面，他是一个细致的观察者和娴熟的叙述者。因此，他在小说中对人的不同个性的理解和对小说中人物性格的多样性进行了概念化的探讨。他能够把握“时代精神”，用他的自传体经历，不仅为他的家庭，为清朝的中国人，为中国人民，而且为人类，创作了一部永恒的成人小说。

This tradition of Coming-of-age novels is also a European one, like enlightenment philosopher Voltaire’s novel Candide or Optimism《老实人》shows at the very same time (1759) in Europe. Also Voltaire’s Candide has to leave the luxurious paradise of his childhood and strives for true love, but his main learning is more pessimistic, since Voltaire wrote the novel in opposition to Leibniz, who optimistically looked to China as “the best of all worlds”. Recent research findings show that China had a much larger influence on European enlightenment philosophers and we can be sure, that also Cao Xueqin was aware of some European literary traditions.

这种成熟的传统小说也是一个欧洲人,像启蒙运动哲学家伏尔泰在欧洲同时间出版的的小说《老实人》(1759年)。伏尔泰笔下的老实人不得不离开童年的奢华天堂，为追求真爱而奋斗，但他的主要学习内容却更为悲观，因为伏尔泰的小说与莱布尼茨截然相反，莱布尼茨乐观地认为中国是“所有世界中最好的”。最近的研究发现，中国对欧洲启蒙运动哲学家的影响要大得多，我们可以肯定，曹雪芹对欧洲的一些文学传统也有所了解。

=15. 结语=

段：我们非常感佩您对中华文化的热爱、对推动中德文化交流做出的突出贡献！再次感谢您接受我的访问！祝您多结学术硕果！

吴：谢谢你！的确，通过文化交往把人们团结起来，这是我们这个时代最重要的任务之一。许多国家都以自己的文化为荣。可是，没有任何一种文化逊色于其它文化，每种文化都有其独特的魅力，促进我们作为个人和整个人类的发展。我作为一个德国人，爱上了中国文化。如果其它国家的人也爱上了中国文化，中国人爱上了其它国家的文化，那么可以想见，整个人类文化必将绽放。这样，人们就能实现尊重和宽容。

Thank you! Indeed, uniting people through cultural exchanges is one of the most important tasks of our time. Many countries are proud of their own culture. However, no culture is inferior to other cultures, and each culture has its own unique charm, which promotes our development as individuals and as human beings as a whole. As a German, I fell in love with Chinese culture. If people from other countries also fall in love with Chinese culture and Chinese people fall in love with other countries' cultures, it is conceivable that the whole human culture will bloom. In this way, people can achieve respect and tolerance.

=SAMPLE=
'''美国汉学家白亚仁谈中国小说在英美的翻译与传播'''

□ 受访人：［美］白亚仁（Allan H. Barr)
采访人：杨平

访谈按语：白亚仁（Allan H. Barr），1954 年 4 月出生于加拿大，1977 年获得剑桥大学东方研究学士学位，1983 年获得牛津大学中国文学专业博士学位。现任美国波摩纳学院（Pomona College）亚洲语言文学系教授。早期主要从事中国古典文学尤其是明清小说的研究；目前主要从事中国当代文学的译介，翻译了余华的《在细雨中呼喊》《十个词汇里的中国》《黄昏里的男孩》《第七天》等作品，并编译了韩寒的
《这一代》。
2017 年 12 月 20 日，白亚仁教授应邀来浙江外国语学院进行学术讲座，期间笔者对他进行了访谈，就白教授与中国文化的因缘、对《聊斋志异》的研究、对余华作品的翻译，及中国文学的海外传播等话题进行了愉快的交流。
中图分类号：H059 doi:10.19326/j.cnki.2095-9257.2019.04.002

杨平（下文简称“ 杨”）：白教授您好！非常感谢您接受我的采访。您是著名的汉学家，也是中国文学研究和翻译的专家，尤其是在明清小说家蒲松龄及其《聊斋志异》的研究方面和中国当代文学的翻译方面卓有成就。首先我想问一下，您当初为什么选择学习中文，研究、翻译中国文学？

白亚仁（下文简称“ 白”）：我想家庭背景有一定的影响。我父母都研究外语，他们都在爱丁堡大学（University of Edinburgh）学习古典文学、希腊语和拉丁语。我父亲研究希伯来语，是《圣经》语言研究专家，也研究其他一些中东语言；我母亲后来在中学教拉丁语和希腊语。我姐姐在大学学习法语，我自己在中学学习法语、拉丁语和希腊语。我不想重复我父母和我姐姐走过的路，所以就选择了一个比较遥远的文化。我喜欢法语之类的现代语言，也喜欢古代的拉丁语和希腊语，中文刚好古代语和现代语兼而有之，从古文到现代汉语发展没有中断。如果学习中文，那就有机会同时接触古代汉语和现代汉语。我也可以选择日语，但是日本历史、日本文化没有那么吸引我，我觉得中国有更丰富、更悠久的文化传统。

我于 20 世纪 70 年代开始学习中文，当时是想更多地了解中国。那时还是“毛泽东时代”，中国好像是一个很神秘的国家。到了“文化大革命” 后期，中国开始恢复跟西方国家的交流，英国学生开始有机会到中国来留学或者进修，所以我觉得可能以后会有更好的学习环境。那时我没想到中国的变化会这么快、这么惊人，但就是预感中国会有变化。我高中就申请到剑桥大学去学中文，那时中国现当代文学没有很吸引我，引起我兴趣的是中国古代文学，尤其是明清小说，我们本科时阅读的冯梦龙“三言”的一些短篇，还有《红楼梦》和《儒林外史》的一些篇章都很有趣。我研究生时的研究方向也是明清文学，尤其是明清小说。

我对翻译的兴趣是最近 20 年才开始的。一方面，翻译作为学术活动、学术成果在美国大学并不那么受重视。刚参加工作时，我没想过要做翻译。晋升教授以后，我享有更多的自由，可以做一些自己想做的事情，这才开始从事翻译。另一方面，20 世纪 90 年代后期，中国当代文学出现了一些比较出色的作品，这也是我尝试翻译中国文学的原因。我之所以喜欢翻译，因为它跟研究不一样。研究古典文学比较辛苦，翻译当代文学就相对轻松，还可以直接与作者交流，研究蒲松龄就没有这种乐趣。翻译带给我快乐，使我得以更多了解当代中国文学的动向，丰富了我的学术生活和精神生活。杨：是什么原因使您决定研究明清文言小说，如《聊斋志异》的？

白：我在大学四年级快毕业的时候开始阅读《聊斋志异》，觉得趣味十足。当时读的是中文原著，比较吃力，但依靠一些注释也基本可以读懂。剑桥大学中文系很重视传统文化和古典文学，我们的中文口语可能不那么流畅，但是读古文还是有相当水平的。我喜欢研究别人不太研究的作家和作品。现在《聊斋志异》比较热门，但在 20世纪 70 年代末我作研究生时，从 1949 年到 1978 年，中国只出过两本有关《聊斋志异》的专著，重要的论文也只有十几篇。为什么文言小说在唐朝达到一个高峰，在蒲松龄生活的清朝又达到另一个高峰？这是我当时感兴趣的问题。同时，蒲松龄从 30 多岁开始写《聊斋志异》，一直写到快70 岁，在这个漫长的过程中，他的写作发生了怎样的变化？这也是我想研究的问题。此外，《聊斋志异》中有些故事并不纯粹是虚构的，而是来源于现实生活，而我恰好也喜欢从历史的角度去研究文学。基于这些考虑，《聊斋志异》深深地吸引了我。后来《聊斋志异》逐渐成为很多人关注的作品，我的兴趣反而淡薄了，最近 20 年基本没有发表与《聊斋志异》相关的论文，转而研究一些没什么人研究的文言小说及作家。

杨：您是否关注过《聊斋志异》的英译本？

白：我阅读原著的同时也读了翟理斯（HerbertGiles，1845—1935）的译本“Strange Tales from a Chinese Studio”(1)。翟理斯翻译了《聊斋志异》三分之一左右的故事，但他的本意是把译文分享给他的孩子，而《聊斋志异》本来是为成年人写的，并不是儿童读物。为了满足儿童的阅读需求，他做了相应的修改或删除。比如说，原著中一个书生和一个美女相遇，二人可能很快发生了性关系，但在翟理斯译本中他们就只是喝茶。在《红玉》等好几个故事里他都做了这样的改写。从其他方面来说他还是个优秀的译者，而且他使用了维多利亚时期的英语，跟我们现在使用的英语有所差别，很好地反映了《聊斋志异》使用的中文不是现代普通白话文的事实。
杨：您为什么从中国明清文学的研究转向中国当代文学的翻译？

白：研究古典文学很吃力，古文很难懂，资料也难找，而且在图书馆借阅图书也有各种麻烦，效率很低。相比之下，做翻译要轻松很多，一台电脑，几本词典，再加上一两个中国朋友就可以了。我自己投入翻译工作，一方面是想换换口味；另一方面，我在教学过程中接触到一些中国当代文学的译本，对别人的译文往往不太满意，总觉得自己能够译得更好。做翻译给了我放开的机会，可以暂时摆脱严谨的学术研究。翻译中国当代文学作品，好像去当下的中国街道上看风景、看人物；搞明清文学研究能去看什么呢？

杨：在现当代众多有名的作家中，您为何选择翻译余华的作品？

白：当初我看中了余华的《许三观卖血记》（Chronicle of a Blood Merchant），1996 年左右我读了原著，两天就读完了。这本书的可读性很强，一些细节让我很感动，有些情节让我想哭，有些情节又令我想笑，我觉得很精彩，好像中国当代小说很少能引起这么一种反应；而且书的篇幅不长，语言简单，翻译不那么费力，这正是我想要翻译的那种书。但是很快我发现已经有人在翻译这本书，(2) 自己再翻译就不是很好的选择，所以我就决定翻译余华的短篇小说集《黄昏里的男孩》（Boy in the Twilight）(1)。这本书我也喜欢，篇幅比《许三观卖血记》还短，翻译更加容易。当时西方有很多反映“文化大革命”和“毛泽东时代”的著作及回忆录，我认为这些书很有价值，但如果外国人只读这样的书，就难以了解中国 1978 年以后的变化，还以为中国街上都是红卫兵呢。《黄昏里的男孩》的故事都发生在改革开放初期，与中国政治保持了一定的距离，更多反映的是普通老百姓的家庭问题，比如说父母和孩子的代沟、婚姻中的危机等，我觉得这是西方人比较容易认同和理解的题材，有译介的价值。
记得第一次跟余华见面是 2001 年，我利用学术假去北京拜访他。他同意我翻译这本书，从此我们开始了长达十几年的合作。无论是我来中国还是他去美国，我们都会见面。翻译了这本书后两三年，我又翻译了他的第一部长篇小说《在细雨中呼喊》（Cries in the Drizzle）(2)，2007年，这本书在美国上市。后来余华写了《兄弟》（Brothers）(3)，因为一些原因我没有承担这本书的翻译，但余华去美国为《兄弟》英文版做宣传时，到我的学校做了讲座。因为这场讲座，他开始写《十个词汇里的中国》（China in Ten Words）(4)，我也与他进行了第三次合作。《兄弟》之后，他写的《第七天》（The Seventh Day）(5) 也是我翻译的。目前美国已经出版了我翻译的四部余华作品，明年还有一个中短篇小说集出版，书名是《四月三日事件》（The April Third Incident）。

杨：您觉得余华小说有什么特点？您在翻译余华小说时遇到过哪些困难和挑战？

白：我喜欢余华的写作风格，简洁、朴实。余华的小说比较容易翻译，因为语言平实，没有方言，用的是标准普通话，句子往往也比较简短，没有那么多中国特有的东西，很少有“这个外国文化没有，怎么翻译成英文”的困扰。但同时，简洁或简单也会造成翻译的困难，余华写得不一定很具体，如果不小心处理，平易近人有可能就会变成平淡无奇。比如说《活着》（To Live）(6) 中提到了“羊”，那是 sheep 还是 goat ？如果是sheep，会不会是 lamb ？是一岁的羊还是三岁的羊？书里没有清楚地交代。《活着》的译者可能没搞清楚这个羊是 sheep、goat 还是 lamb，译本里会看到一些不那么一致的提法。再比如我最近翻译的《四月三日事件》中，男主人公很关注一个叫白雪的女子，有一天，他注意到白雪穿着红衣服。“红衣服”不是很具体的说法，是什么红衣服？是裤子、衬衣、大衣还是外套？如果翻译成 red clothes，那不能让读者想到她长什么样，英语读者不太习惯这个说法。遇到这种情况，我会发邮件给余华：在你心目中，那是什么样的红衣服？还有《在细雨中呼喊》中，故事发生在一个叫南门的乡村，从南门村到县城有一条小路。“小路”也是比较难翻译的，是 small road 还是 little road ？是用泥土还是水泥铺的？他并没有说明，外国人难以想象那是什么样的小路。我问了余华，才知道是path，而不是 road。余华小说的很多句子没有清晰的语法结构，因为叙述者往往不是文学家，而是像《活着》中福贵那样的农民和《第七天》中杨飞那样的普通职员。他们用很通俗的语言讲故事，可能一句话就包含了三四件事情，几件事情只是简单地连接在一起。如果直接翻译成英文，英美读者就会觉得这个句子没有什么逻辑，而是简单的拼凑。我阅读我的译文初稿时，每每觉得还要做一些工作才能让故事更容易为英语读者接受，为此，我会稍微增加一些逻辑词，比如说加上 and、although 等连接词，以符合英语读者的接受习惯。
所以翻译余华作品一方面似乎很简单，一个段落、一页、一章没有太多困难，但另一方面，读自己译文时就会觉得还得下大力气进行完善。

杨：就您所知，余华作品在英美的接受和影响情况如何？

白：影响情况难以判断。影响表现为被别的作家模仿，他们发现一个同行写的东西很好，然后使用同样的写法。目前我还没发现哪位中国作家在西方有着这样的影响。但接受肯定是有的，一些重要的报纸、杂志会刊发书评。现在，余华、莫言、苏童和阎连科等作家在国外会有媒体关注，也有一定的读者，但他们的作品到现在为止都没有成为畅销书。据说唯一畅销的是科幻小说《三体》，比较严肃、传统的文学作品可能都还没有取得突破。
余华的书在国外卖得不错，其中卖得最好的应该是《活着》。很多人喜欢这本小说，故事本身很有趣，同时呈现了中国几十年的历史，仿佛一本简明的历史教科书。而且还有电影，有些人会先看电影，然后再看原著。虽然《活着》的故事发生在中国，但故事本身比较具有普世性，外国读者即便不了解中国历史，也会被这个故事感动。福贵热爱生命，在苦难面前保持乐观，我想很多人会认同这种人生态度。
《十个词汇里的中国》也受到广泛的好评，很多人给朋友推荐这本书。这本书可读性也很强，有很多有意思的小故事，谈到“毛泽东时代”、改革开放时代，时间跨度大，却又不像严肃文学那么难懂。虽然是作者的主观视角，但故事真实、生动。读者一般都会很喜欢这本书。

杨：莫言小说在西方的反响和接受也不尽如人意吗？

白：莫言获得诺贝尔奖后，读者肯定是增加了，但我感觉他也没有一本书能够引起特别关注，或者让人特别兴奋。莫言获奖后在西方引起了某种程度的“莫言热”，但我不知道有多少人真心喜欢他的作品。女性读者恐怕尤其不太容易接受莫言小说所描写的暴力和丑陋。每次诺贝尔文学奖评出后，有些读者可能觉得有责任去读一读获奖者的书，起码要读一本，但这并不意味着他们会读他全部的作品。

杨：余华或其他中国作家有没有可能获得诺贝尔文学奖？译者的作用是否重要？

白：莫言获得诺贝尔文学奖说明中国作家和中国文学的国际影响力提高了，其他中国作家能否获得诺贝尔文学奖很难预测。译者、编辑、出版社都是重要的因素，另外宣传和营销也起着关键的作用。莫言的成功在一定程度上要归功于他的英文译者葛浩文（Howard Goldblatt）。葛浩文翻译了四十多本中国小说，在美国、英国等以英文为母语的国家，他的贡献很大，没有他，很多中国小说根本无法进入英文读者的视野。

杨：中国作家的写作与西方读者的接受存在差异，翻译时译者如何去平衡？

白：中国作家希望他们的作品能够获得不同读者的喜爱和欣赏，尽量扩大作品的读者群，但凡是有兴趣阅读中国小说英译本的英文读者，一般都受过良好教育，文学品位较高，他们不一定需要作者把事情说得很直白，而更愿意自己去琢磨，希望有独立思考的余地。在西方编辑看来，作者不用那么直接地告诉读者，只需展示一下就行了，只要展示得比较传神，读者自然能够明白。译者还是要尊重原文，如果原著“告诉”比较多， “展示”比较少，也只能接受现实，而不能单方面改动原作。

杨：您对葛浩文译本中多处删改原文的翻译策略有何看法？

白：我曾把葛浩文的译文与原著进行对比，确实有一些不一样的地方，我不确定是不是因为他用的中文版本跟正式出版的版本有所差异。
葛浩文可能有自己的理论考量，他认为中国缺乏编辑文化。西方国家的编辑一般是很有权威的，他们可以告诉哪怕是很著名的作家：这个地方写得不好，需要修改，或者我有建议希望你能考虑。这样修订稿跟交给编辑的初稿可能有相当大的改动。而中国的编辑没有这么高的权威，比较有名的作家完全可以告诉编辑：一点也不能更改！鉴于这种情况，葛浩文会觉得译本还是需要一定的编辑工作，既然中国编辑不承担这个责任，那么这个责任就要由译者承担。比如，莫言一本书的中文版长达五百多页，翻译成英文可能有六百多页，那么出版社可能会告诉葛浩文，我们不会出版这么长的书，你要想办法把它缩短一点，那他就会删除几章或者删除部分内容。

杨：您自己的翻译中有没有遇到这方面的问题？

白：我对《十个词汇里的中国》的个别地方进行了改动，其他译本基本上没有。《十个词汇里的中国》的编辑通过我把她的想法传达给余华，请他做出相应的修改，但是不多。我自己不太做大幅度的修改，可能是没有那么自信，不觉得自己能够判断什么是成功或不成功的写作，所以一般还是尊重原文。

杨：请您谈谈对《红楼梦》几个译本的看法。

白：我最熟悉的就是霍克斯（David Hawkes，1923—2009）和闵福德（John Minford）的版本 (1)。我还知道乔利（Henry B. Joly，1857—1898）的版本(2) 及杨宪益的版本 (3)，但没怎么读。霍克斯版本在1973 年出版第一册，当时我非常喜欢，现在也喜欢。我在英国长大，霍克斯是英国汉学家，当时感觉他的译文很通顺，很容易接受。后来搬到美国，再翻阅他的译本，用来教学生，结果美国学生认为英国味道很浓，好像故事不是发生在 18 世纪的中国，而是发生在 18 世纪的英国。这是霍克斯译本的一个问题。当然这其实是英语本身的问题，要么是美国的口语，要么是英国的口语。美国的口语美国人很适应，英国人就不适应，反之亦然。另外《红楼梦》有同性恋的内容，霍克斯的翻译一般比较可靠地反映了故事的文化背景，但他翻译中国传统文化中同性恋的替代概念“龙阳之兴”(4) 时，没有忠实于中国文化传统。“龙阳之兴”在中文里没有贬义，“兴”就是 tendency 或者 interest，可是霍克斯把它翻译成 vice，就有明显的贬义。英国传统文化不接受同性恋，非常排斥，他采取了英国比较流行的态度翻译这个词，我想他对待同性恋的这种态度不适合《红楼梦》，因为清代还是比较接受同性恋的。这是他翻译中的一个美中不足之处吧。但是霍克斯的诗词翻译非常好，这些诗文翻译成英文后仍然是非常好的诗词。总体而言，霍克斯对《红楼梦》翻译的贡献是很大的。

杨：您在课堂上使用《红楼梦》哪个译本？学生们对它评价如何？白：我给学生讲课时用的是霍克斯译本，因为容易买到。我的学生总的来说不太喜欢《红楼梦》，他们记不住人名。霍克斯将人名对应为英文里的单词，读者可以较少面对那些外国名字，会觉得亲切一点，比如 Patience（平儿）、Aroma（袭人）等。另外，《红楼梦》很长，一般不能在一学期内讲完，最多只能学习第一册，还不到全书的四分之一，学生会为此感到沮丧：花了好几个星期读了那么多内容，结果还只是全书的一小部分。

杨：近五十年中国文学在英美的翻译与传播情况如何？

白：西方 20 世纪 60 年代以前比较流行一种看法，就是认为中国古代小说没有西方小说那么好。外国人不太容易欣赏中国的这些作品，因为西方翻译家认为中国小说有缺陷，没有必要把全部内容都翻译成英文，他们有理由、有权力删掉一些多余的诗词，或者删掉故事太长、情节无聊的内容。20 世纪 40 年代韦利（Arthur Waley， 1889—1966）把《西游记》的三分之一翻译成英文，书名是“Monkey”，(5) 他认为《西游记》有很多重复的内容，没有必要翻译全文。这在 20 世纪前半叶是一个比较普遍的态度。《红楼梦》也有一个缩写本，只有 300 页。一个转折点可能是霍克斯在 1973 年出版的《红楼梦》译本。霍克斯认为他有责任把《红楼梦》的所有内容翻译成英文，他的“企鹅古典系列”（Penguin Classics）版本是最流行的《红楼梦》英译本。自此，别的翻译家也大多采取了相同的态度，很认真地把中国古代小说完整地翻译成英文。芝加哥大学教授余国藩（Anthony C. Yu，1938— 2015）在 1977 年出版了《西游记》新译本的第一册，全书一共有四册，1983 年出齐。(6)《三国演义》的完整译本 (7) 于 1994 年出版，译者罗慕士（Moss Roberts）是纽约大学的教授。另外一个获得好评的译本是《金瓶梅》，译者芮效卫（David Tod Roy，1933—2016）也是芝加哥大学教授，他用了二十年来翻译这本书，第一册于 1993 年(1) 出版，一册有二十回，最后一册在 2013 年出版。《金瓶梅》译本的特点是芮效卫做了很多注释，《金瓶梅》英译本全五册的总页数是 2500 多页，注释多达 4400 多条。

最近 50 年来，把全部的原著呈现给读者好像是一个比较流行的现象，好像只有文言小说没有这么做，可能因为文言小说没有一个很整体的统一（unity）。现在的情况是，一方面，有些很完整且翻译得非常认真的译本，读者不一定很多，因为他们读完这些作品要花很长的时间；另外一方面，有一些新的选集针对普通的学生，普通的读者。总的来讲，无论是全译本还是节译本，这些翻译家都是用比较同情的态度去翻译的，不像一百年以前的译者，总是对中国古典小说进行批评和指责。

如英国的蓝诗玲（Julia Lovell）、韩斌（Nicky Harman），美国的译者更多。80 年代生活在中国的几位译者做的一些翻译，外文出版社推出的“熊猫丛书”在国外发行有问题，没做什么宣传，很难买到。现在一般是外国人把中文作品翻译成自己的母语，在国外的出版社出版，并且会做一定的宣传，因此提高了作品的知名度。

杨：现在翻译中国文学作品的译者有汉学家、外籍普通学者、外籍华人、中国本土学者等等，您认为最为理想的译者是谁？

白：汉学家一般是大学教授，但教授不一定是好译者。有些人不是教授，但中文英文都很好，也可以把中国作品翻译成英文。是不是汉学家是次要的，甚至有人认为教授不是最合适的翻译人选，因为他们可能读了太多的学术著作，比较严谨迂腐。较为口语化或生活化的书，博士学位可能无助于准确翻译。译者最好在中国生活过多年，有较好的语言、文化感觉，知道中国人讲的话是什么意思。我想外国译者把中文作品翻译成自己的母语时比较有优势，因为他们对自己的语言有丰富的感觉和直觉，对于什么是好的翻译、怎样翻译比较成功，心里比较有数。

杨：目前在中国文化对外传播中强调中国声音和中国话语，提倡保留原汁原味。您对“中国作品走出去倾向于异化”的翻译策略和方法有什么看法？

白：我自己的翻译理论很薄弱，只是一个翻译实践者。我没有什么深厚的理念功底，更多靠自己的直觉和感觉，针对具体问题选择归化或者异化，不会一概而论。
我注意到有些译者遇到“山寨”等中国特色词汇时，认为无法用外语表达，最好用拼音。我自己觉得这个办法不好。虽然“copycat”还不能完全代表“山寨”，但比较简洁，比用拼音好，至少传达了原文的一部分味道。比如中国人打招呼说“吃饭了吗”“你回来了”，这些直接翻译成英文就不妥当，我们不这么讲话。虽然它们反映了中国文化，中国人这么说不奇怪，但看译文会觉得奇怪，所以我觉得这种情况直译不一定是个很好的策略。

杨：您为什么翻译中国“80 后”作家韩寒的作品？

白：西蒙与舒斯特公司（Simon & Schuster）是美国的一家大型出版社，他们想出版韩寒的两本书，并找到了我。我本来没有很关注中国“80后”作家的作品，但认为通过翻译可以更多地了解他们。出版社首先想出版韩寒的一些博客文章，我读了后觉得他的写作风格比较有趣，与传统的文学作品不同，值得翻译。出版社给我提供了韩寒杂文的台湾版，书名叫《青春》，但我只选了书中的一部分作品，更多的文章直接选自他的博客。我们选的文集书名是《这一代》（This Generation）(2)。他的很多文章写得犀利风趣，但考虑到美国读者的兴趣，有些文章不适合选择进来。例如他谈中国当代诗歌的文章，虽然文章本身很好，但因为美国人不了解中国当代诗歌，所以就放弃了。美国人更有兴趣的是他那些关于政治、社会、文化的杂文。出版社也希望我翻译韩寒的长篇小说《1988：我想和世界谈谈》，但我并不太看好这部在中国炒得很热的小说，所以就没有翻译。

杨：您如何评价韩寒及其作品？

白：他是一位特别的作家，是一代中国青年的代表。他善于独立思考，不会在意主流媒体怎么说、一般百姓怎么想，不肯人云亦云。韩寒的存在也让美国人看到，中国不仅仅有官方的声音，还有个体自己的声音。
他文笔有趣，有讽刺，有比喻，很巧妙。他的幽默也很有特色，很多时候利用谐音调侃一些社会现象，翻译起来比较困难。我有时候想，如果找不到合适的对应的句子，我宁可舍弃，因为我不想在后边加个注解：这种做法在中文里是很好笑的。

杨：近年来您的翻译取向发生了改变，从小说转向随笔和杂文等非虚构作品，这是为什么？

白：这反映了美国相当一部分读者的兴趣。外国人阅读中国文学作品有一个重要动机，希望借此多了解中国，让他们通过小说接触一个虚拟的中国，还不如让他们接触一个离现实更近、非虚构的中国。曾经有人在《华盛顿邮报》上说：读完一部中国长篇小说之后，感觉与其用小说的形式去反映中国的一些不合理现象，不如干脆写非虚构作品。既然中国的某些现实已经让人眼花缭乱，何必要费尽心思去创造另一个虚拟世界呢？

杨：中国文学“走出去”需要克服哪些困难？中国当代文学在西方的前景如何？

白：中国文学的翻译、出版和海外接受都不够理想，需要克服的困难很多，主要问题有：翻译质量、创作倾向、文化差异、版权代理、推广力度、营销手段等等。
由于中国经济实力的强大，外国人普遍认为应该加强对中国的了解，西方媒体非常关注中国的动向，海外出版社比过去更积极地推销与中国有关的书籍。读几本当代作家的小说好像是一个比较便利的办法，所以我对中国当代文学在西方的前景还是持乐观态度的。

杨：您最近在做什么翻译或研究工作？近期有什么打算吗？

白：翻译只是我的一部分工作，作品暂时不多，翻译量不大，一般两三年才翻译一本书，我对自己的翻译量没有太高的期待。我现在正在翻译一个回忆录，是艾青儿子艾未未写的一部非虚构作品，讲述他父亲和他自己的故事。他是一位重要的艺术家，我对他的回忆录饶有兴味。
我还会继续研究明清文学，也许会写一两篇跟《聊斋志异》有关的论文，谈谈书里涉及的谣言和传闻的故事，这些在明清社会还是很流行的。

杨：谢谢！白教授耐心细致的解答！

白：谢谢！我很高兴接受采访！

2021 Interview with Duan Yuanyuan

2021-03-25T02:20:00Z

Bebery: /* 2《红楼梦》首次全译本 */

'''访谈提纲 Interview with Martin Woesler by Duan Yuanyuan'''

(Please compare this with the http://bou.de/u/wiki/longer_interview_version_dated_March_3_2021.)

=1 让·莫内讲席教授=
段：吴教授您好，非常感谢您拨冗接受我的访谈！首先恭喜您获得“让·莫内讲席教授”荣誉称号，此地位是欧盟对从事欧洲一体化教学与研究学者的最高学术承认！您真可谓是一位欧盟的学术大使！据悉，该项目申请难度颇大，中国今年只有湖南师范大学、四川大学和中国政法大学三所大学获得资助。您可否借此次获奖的机缘，说明你眼中中欧的学术交流呢？

吴：不客气！我一直将自己看作中欧之间的“文化大使”，将这次获得“让·莫内讲席教授”称号看作自己在华学习、工作、生活近三十年的一个阶段性总结。欧盟委员会2020年在全球范围内授予了70个让·莫内教席，且每所大学最多可获一个名额。“让·莫内讲席教授”传统上主要关注欧盟相关研究。现在欧盟委员会把这个奖项授予在中国任教的德国汉学家，说明欧盟委员会已经认识欧盟与中国间合作的重要性。
You're welcome! I have always regarded myself as the "cultural ambassador" between China and Europe, and this time I won the title of "Professor Jean Monnet" as a phased summary of my study, work and life in China for nearly 30 years. In 2020, the European Commission awarded 70 Jean Monnet chairs worldwide, and each university can get up to one place. Traditionally, "Professor Jean Monnet" mainly focuses on EU-related research. Now the European Commission has awarded this award to German sinologists who teach in China, which shows that the European Commission has recognized the importance of cooperation between the EU and China.

中欧人文交流历史由来已久，欧盟成员国中，中法、中德、中英人文交流密切。中英两国政府于1979年签订文化合作协定；英国也是与我国开展教育合作交流较早的欧洲国家之一，是欧盟内最大的中国留学生目的地国，中国在英建立的孔子学院和孔子课堂，数量居欧洲之首；中法两国人文交流匠心独运，自2002年《中法政府间文化合作协定》签订以来，出现了互设文化中心，互办文化年的创举，涌现了“中法交流文化之春”等品牌活动；中德人文交流独树一帜，文学艺术领域引人瞩目，中德相互担任对方主办的国际书展的主宾国、分别举办了“中国8当代中国艺术展”与“德国8——德国艺术在中国”大型艺术展览，吸引大批中德人民前往观赏。
People-to-people exchanges between China and Europe have a long history. Among EU member States, people-to-people exchanges between China and France, China and Germany and China and Britain are close. The Chinese and British governments signed a cultural cooperation agreement in 1979; Britain is also one of the European countries that carried out educational cooperation and exchanges with China earlier. It is the largest destination country for Chinese students in the European Union. The number of Confucius Institutes and Confucius Classrooms established by China in Britain ranks first in Europe; The cultural exchanges between China and France are ingenious. Since the signing of the Sino-French Intergovernmental Cultural Cooperation Agreement in 2002, there have been pioneering work of setting up cultural centers and holding cultural years with each other, and brand activities such as "Sino-French Cultural Exchange Spring" have emerged; The cultural exchanges between China and Germany are unique, attracting attention in the field of literature and art. China and Germany are the guest countries of the international book fair sponsored by each other, and have held large-scale art exhibitions of "China 8 Contemporary Chinese Art Exhibition" and "Germany 8-German Art in China" respectively, attracting a large number of Chinese and German people to watch.

作为一名在中国学习、工作的欧洲人，我一直想对中欧国家交流往来做出贡献。申请“让·莫内讲席教授”项目就是其中一环。申请时，我就在材料中表明该项目的落脚点在于中国和欧洲的比较。通过该项目，我会推荐几名德国同事来中国短、长期从事研究工作，也会推荐中国同事去欧洲短期访学。并针对该项目，设置课程专题对比中欧近来的对外政策，以期激励中国塑造更加完整的海外形象。
As a European studying and working in China, I have always wanted to contribute to the exchanges between China and Europe. Applying for the "Jean Monnet Lecture Professor" project is one of them. When I applied, I indicated in the materials that the foothold of the project lies in the comparison between China and Europe. Through this project, I will recommend several German colleagues to China for short-term and long-term research work, and I will also recommend Chinese colleagues to Europe for short-term study visits. In view of this project, a course topic is set up to compare the recent foreign policies of China and Europe, in order to encourage China to shape a more complete overseas image.

Notes:

的确，我有把自己看作中欧之间的“文化大使”。我把这次获得“让·莫内讲席教授”称号看作在华工作、学习、生活近三十年的一个阶段性的总结。许多西方人认为了解中国文化是一个极大的挑战，对此我并不否认，但是个人挑战之余，我还从中看到改善社会的必要性、提高中西交流和中西相互理解的必要性。个人的学者都为这个大的目的服务。而且这一切都依赖于接触和交流。中国应该有更多的欧洲学者，中国也应该成为德国每一所大学亟需讨论的议题。

Woesler: Thank you too. You're welcome!
Worldwide, the EU Commission has awarded 70 Jean Monnet Chairs in 2020. Each university can receive a maximum of one such chair. The last Jean Monnet Chair went to China in 2016. The Chair signifies an award from Hunan Normal University, which has proven to be cosmopolitan and internationally networked.

Indeed, I regard myself as a "cultural ambassador" between China and Europe, and I regard winning the "Jean Monnet Chair" as an accumulation of nearly 30 years of working, studying and living in China. Many Westerners think that dealing with China is a great challenge, which I don't deny, but besides the individual challenge, I also see the necessity for improvement of the society, and of optimization of the relations between China and the West as well as the understanding of each other. Change can only be realized through contact and communication. There should be more European scholars in China and China should also become a topic to be discussed at every German university.

“让·莫内讲席教授”传统上关注的是欧盟相关研究。这次欧盟委员会把这个奖项授予一位在中国任教的德国汉学家，这就说明欧盟委员会已经认识到了对比自己和其他国家的政治/发展模式的重要性。

在研究和讲授中，该西席处理的是中国和欧洲的比较。主席的重要议题是不同的教育体系、社会各领域的专业化和数字化以及对隐私和数据保护的理解。

The Jean Monnet Chairs traditionally deal with EU studies. The fact that the EU Commission is now awarding it to a German Sinologist at a Chinese university shows that it has recognized the need to critically examine other models in comparison with the EU.

In research and teaching, the chair deals with a comparison of China and Europe. Important topics of the chair are the different education systems, professionalization and digitization in all areas of society and the understanding of privacy and data protection.

欧盟委员会正式将中国列为 "战略伙伴"，但同时也是 "系统性竞争者"。中国向欧洲靠拢，也是通过'新丝绸之路'倡议。现在，重要的是将欧盟在巴黎气候保护协定、与中国达成的投资保护协定语和即将签署的自由贸易协定中达成的共识推广到其他领域，比如在数据法、人权和法治的理解上进行合作。这张椅子可以成为帮助中国学生了解欧洲的接口，并在德国的利益相关者中提高中国能力。

The EU Commission has officially classified China as a ‘strategic partner’, but also as a ‘systemic competitor’. China is moving closer to Europe, also with its ‘New Silk Road’ initiative. Now it is important to extend the consensus that the EU has reached in the Paris climate protection agreement, with the investment protection agreement with China and with the imminent free trade agreement to other areas, for example by cooperating on the understanding of data law, human rights and the rule of law. The chair could be an interface to help Chinese students understand Europe and to increase China competence among stakeholders in Germany.

我不想把欧盟在中国表现作为中国的反面典型，而是用自我批判性的眼光看待。中国学生正是通过批判性思维树立价值观。我曾做过调查，结果显示，很多中国学生认为欧盟的政治一体化还没有成功，英国脱欧反映了欧盟的软弱，但我想传达的知识是，欧盟已经在运作了，只是方式不同而已，即追求的不是快速而精干的决策过程，而是等待、讨论、参与和妥协的过程。虽然欧盟还远未达到完美，但与中国相比简直是天壤之别。

I do not want to present the EU in China as a counter-model to China, but I want to present it self-critically. It is through critical thinking that Chinese students recognise values. I have done a survey, and the results show that many Chinese students think that the political integration of the EU has not been successful, and that Brexit reflects a weakness of the EU. However, the knowledge I want to convey is that the EU is already functioning, only in different ways than China: it is not a fast and lean decision-making process, but rather shows the virtues of patience, discussion, participation and compromising. Although it is far from perfect, it is simply different than China.

同时，英国脱欧正表明欧盟每个成员都有随时离开的自由，这被视为欧盟的特点。所以欧洲未必比中国差，只是不同而已。而当中国学生乐于接受差别的时候，他们的个性就会发展，成熟起来，适合国际就业市场。因此，我很鼓励学生去欧洲交换学习一、两个学期。

At the same time, Brexit shows that every EU member has the freedom to leave at any time, which is regarded as an achievement. Therefore, Europe is not necessarily worse than China, it is just different. When Chinese students are willing to accept differences, their personalities will develop and mature, become suitable for the international job market. Therefore, I encourage students to go to Europe for one or two exchange semesters.

在主持下，我把几位德国同事带到中国短期或长期停留，把中国同事带到欧洲。我可以在湖南师范大学新成立的 "国际中国研究中心 "介绍德国、欧洲和西方对中国的看法。这可能会激发中国更完整的自我形象，也可能会激发批判性的反思。

Through the chair position, I bring several German colleagues to China for short and long-term stays and Chinese colleagues to Europe. I can present German, European and Western perspectives on China at Hunan Normal Unviersity in the newly established “International Chinese Studies Centre”. This may stimulate a more complete self-image in China and also critical reflection.

鉴于湖南师范大学的让-莫奈教席，特设置课程课题，将中国和欧洲的近代外交政策进行比较，以鼓励中国塑造更完整的海外形象。

In view of the Jean Monnet Chair at Hunan Normal University, a course topic is set up to compare the recent foreign policies of China and Europe, in order to encourage China to shape a more complete overseas image.

=2《红楼梦》首次全译本=
段：您的代表作是《红楼梦》德语全译本，您是如何走上汉学之路的呢？可否谈谈与史华慈合译《红楼梦》的初衷？

《红楼梦》是一件永恒的艺术品，应该提升到“世界遗产”的地位。目前，欧洲只有半数国家出版《红楼梦》译本。1989年我刚上大学的时候，德文版《红楼梦》也只有弗兰茨-库恩的节译本，共40章，只有原文体量的三分之一。库恩翻译的中国小说带有浓厚的德国地方色彩，《红楼梦》也不例外。除此之外，译文还存在一些不足之处，如库恩把《红楼梦》中的“楼”翻译成“城堡”。这种译法也许比较适合欧洲读者的阅读口味，但就中国文化而言，我认为不太准确。这些不足之处也可解释为什么大卫-霍克斯和约翰-闵福德的译本在德国广受欢迎。

A Dream of Red Mansions is an eternal work of art and should be promoted to the status of "World Heritage". At present, only half of European countries have published translations of a Dream of Red Mansions. When I first went to college in 1989, the German version of a Dream of Red Mansions was only a flantz-Kuhn excerpt, with a total of 40 chapters, only one third of the original volume. Kuhn's translation of Chinese novels has a strong German local color, and A Dream of Red Mansions is no exception. In addition, there are still some shortcomings in the translation, such as Kuhn's translation of "building" into "castle" in A Dream of Red Mansions. This translation may be more suitable for European readers, but as far as Chinese culture is concerned, I don't think it is accurate. These shortcomings can also explain why the translations of David Hawkes and John Minford are so popular in Germany.

XX年/契机我开始重新翻译《红楼梦》。也是通过这个项目，我申请到了北京大学德意志学术交流中心（Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst，简称DAAD）奖学金。因此得以在北京大学学习X个月。当时奖学金评审主席是顾彬（Wolfgang Kubin），他后来成为我的博士生导师之一。随后在北京，我多次参观了红楼梦研究所。当时中国红楼梦学会会长的张庆善送给我一本《红楼梦大辞典》。回到德国后，我担任马汉茂（Helmut Martin）的助理。从他那里我了解到史华慈（Rainer Schwarz）已经将小说前80章翻译出来，并将自己的译文交给他，希望出版。马汉茂让我审阅了史华兹的译本。

XX Year/Opportunity I began to retranslate A Dream of Red Mansions. It was also through this project that I applied for a scholarship from Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst (DAAD) of Peking University. So I was able to study at Peking University for X months. At that time, Wolfgang Kubin was the chairman of the scholarship evaluation, and he later became one of my doctoral supervisors. Later in Beijing, I visited the Dream of Red Mansions Research Institute many times. At that time, Zhang Qingshan, president of the Chinese Society of a Dream of Red Mansions, gave me a Dictionary of a Dream of Red Mansions. After returning to Germany, I worked as an assistant to Helmut Martin. From him, I learned that Rainer Schwarz had translated the first 80 chapters of the novel and gave him his own translation, hoping to publish it. Ma Hanmao asked me to review Schwartz's translation.

那次翻译尝试于我具有重大意义，我认为修改史华兹的译本使其达到出版水平比自己独立完成120回的翻译更重要。我花了几年时间修订史华兹的译文，随后翻译了后40回。其中人名的翻译没有采用标准的汉语拼音，而是按照德语书写方式，这样做的目的是尽可能地吸引更多读者的关注，且避免读者出现行文风格“跳脱”感受。
That translation attempt was of great significance to me. I think it is more important to revise Schwartz's translation to the publishing level than to complete 120 translations independently. I spent several years revising Schwartz's translation, and then translated the last 40 times. Among them, the translation of names does not use standard Chinese Pinyin, but is written in German. The purpose of this is to attract as many readers' attention as possible and avoid readers' feeling of "jumping out" of writing style.

另外，我们预计在2022年内出版第五版《红楼梦》，该版本会根据专家意见和自己对原文的理解进行修改。其实每次再版时我们都会做一定的修改，毕竟时代不一样。
In addition, we expect to publish the fifth edition of A Dream of Red Mansions in 2022, which will be revised according to experts' opinions and our own understanding of the original text. In fact, we will make certain changes every time we reprint it. After all, times are different.

Notes：
吴：我第一次接触中国文化，是1987年北京老诗人绿原随诗人和文学家代表团访问我的家乡明斯特时，被他朗诵的诗歌所感动。那时候我还是个高中生。作为一个在保守、天主教、和平、到处有高素质人的明斯特地区长大的，吕原的沉重命运令我震惊。从他的诗中，以及通过与他个人的交谈，我了解到他的经历，一个著名的诗人在1955年被诬陷为23名 "胡风骨干分子 "之一，直到1980年才被平反。所以，既是中国诗歌的美，也是一个民族挣扎在文明现代性道路上的残酷对比吸引了我。

My first encounter with Chinese culture was, when I was moved by poetry, read by the old Beijing poet Lü Yuan 绿原, when he was visiting my hometown Münster with a delegation of poets and literary scholars in 1987. Back then I was still a high school kid. Being raised in the conservative, catholic and peaceful Münsterland with personalities of high qualities 素质, Lü Yuan's heavy fate shocked me. From his poem and through personal conversation with him I learned of his experience as a celebrated poet, who in 1955 was falsely accused of being one of the 23 "Hu Feng key members" 胡风骨幹分子 and only in 1980 was rebilitated 獲平反. So both, the beauty of Chinese poetry, as well as the contrast of the cruelty of a nation struggling to find its way into civilized modernity, has attracted me.

1989年我刚上大学的时候，德文版《红楼梦》也只有弗兰茨-库恩的节译本，共40章，只有原文体量的三分之一。与库恩的其他中国优秀小说译本在语言上几乎没有差别，带有浓厚的德国地方色彩。我也注意到了译文的不足之处。他把《红楼梦》书名中的“楼”翻译成“小房间”。这种译法也许比较适合欧洲读者的阅读口味，但就中国文化、中国历史、中国环境而言，我认为不太准确。这些不足之处也可解释为什么大卫-霍克斯和约翰-闵福德的译本在德国广受欢迎。

When I first went to college in 1989, the German version of a Dream of Red Mansions was only an excerpt by Franz Kuhn, with a total of 40 chapters, only one third of the original. There is almost no difference in language with Kuhn's other excellent Chinese novel translations, with strong German local color. I also noticed the shortcomings of the translation. He translated "Lou" in the title of A Dream of Red Mansions into "small room". This translation may be more suitable for European readers, but I don't think it is accurate in terms of Chinese culture, Chinese history and Chinese environment. These shortcomings can also explain why the translations of David Hawkes and John Minford are so popular in Germany.

《红楼梦》的意义大于个人，是一件永恒的艺术品，应该提升到“世界遗产”的地位。它应该以每一种民族语言提供。目前，欧洲只有半数国家出版《红楼梦》译本。

A Dream of Red Mansions is more meaningful than an individual. It is an eternal work of art and should be promoted to the status of "World Heritage". It should be available in every national language. At present, only half of European countries have translated a Dream of Red Mansions.

1990年我开始重新翻译《红楼梦》。也是通过这个项目，我申请到了北京大学德意志学术交流中心（Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst，简称DAAD）奖学金。当时的选拔委员会主席是沃尔夫冈·顾彬（Wolfgang Kubin，中文名顾彬），他后来成为我的博士生导师之一。
因此我也得以在北京大学留学了，考上了语言考试，入了中文系，读了几个学期的“先当代中国文学”的本科，一致到1992年。随后在北京，我多次参观了中国艺术研究院红楼梦研究所。参观之时中国红楼梦学会的主席张庆山送给我一本《红楼梦大词典》作为礼物。后来回到德国，我成为马汉茂教授的研究助理。在那里我了解到，已经有雷纳-施瓦茨的小说前80章的粗译本。从他那里我了解到，莱纳-史华慈（Rainer Schwarz）已经将小说前80章翻译出来，并将自己的译文交给他出版，马汉茂让我审阅了莱纳-史华兹的译本。不过译文暂未达到出版质量，还需修订，之前已经有好几家出版社都拒绝了发表。

In 1990 I began to retranslate "A Dream of Red Mansions". It was also through this project that I applied for a scholarship from Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst (DAAD) of Peking University. So I was able to study at Peking University for X months. At that time, the chairman of the selection committee was Wolfgang Kubin (Chinese name Gu Bin), who later became one of my doctoral supervisors. Later in Beijing, I visited the Dream of Red Mansions Research Institute many times. During the visit, the president of the Hongloumeng Studies Society Zhang Qingshan gave me a dictionary of a Dream of Red Mansions. Later, when I returned to Germany, I cooperated with Helmut Martin. I learned from him that Rainer Schwarz had translated the first 80 chapters of the novel and gave him his own translation for publication. Helmut Martin asked me to review Rainer Schwartz's translation. However, the translation has not yet reached the publishing quality and needed to be revised, several publishing houses had already refused to publish the translation.

但是，这次翻译尝试具有历史意义，我觉得修改和出版比完成自己的120章翻译更重要。于是我把我的译本搁置起来，对莱纳-施瓦茨先生的译本进行了几年的修改，然后按照前80章的风格重新修改了我120章译本的后40章（适应非标准音译，而不是按意思翻译人名等），尽量让读者有一个完整的阅读流程。

However, this translation attempt had historical significance and I felt that the revision and publication was more important than the completion of my own 120 chapter translation. So I put my translation on the back burner, revised Mr. Schwarz’s translation for several years, and then reworked the last 40 chapters of my 120-chapter translation according to the style of the first 80 chapters (adapting to non-standard phonetic transcription instead of translating names by meanings, etc.). The purpose of this is to attract more readers' attention as much as possible, and to avoid readers' feeling of "jumping" in writing style.

现在，暂时有一个仔细、完整的翻译，并有解释。之后的计划是在2022年内会出版第五版，该版本会根据很多专家意见和自己对原文的重新理解再进行改进。原来我把我的翻译按照前80回的翻译风格改变了（比如把我按意思翻译的人名按前80回靠近德语的发音改了）和按照敏福德的交际的翻译方法（比如贾宝玉跟他祖母说话的时候把“”翻译成“奶奶”）。在第二个版本的时候我已经编辑进去了所有的翻译同事推荐要改善的地方，当然每个地方我自己决定改变还是不改变，如果要改变要改成具体的哪些字。我觉得最重要是读者得到最理想的翻译，不要因为自己选过莫一种说法就要坚持不改变。我觉得素质高的人可以承认他们犯了错。当然，翻译有权利自己决定怎么翻译。有的时候把苹果要翻译成李子，比如目的文化没有苹果还是李子的角色就是原来的文化的苹果。这样，豪克斯也把《红楼梦》里面的红翻译成绿。但是我觉得有一个限制：如果翻译家选了一个在这个上下文特别少用的一个次要含义，但是有更合适的主要含义，那应该有愿意改。不要因为骄傲就坚持自己的不那么好的翻译法。歌德算一个天才。但是他的《流浪者的夜歌》他改了好几遍。这个说明歌德不是天才吗？我觉得他因为能承认自己可以做得更好才是天才。

比如在我未出版的120章全译本中，很多人名的翻译也考虑到了名字的中文含义。[What amendments will you make in the fifth edition of the Chamber? Could you please list some? ]

现在，暂时有了仔细、完整的译文和解释。也许在2021年内，可以出版第五版，会根据同仁们的意见和自己对原文的重新理解进行改进。

我把原文重新读了一遍，每句重新考虑怎么翻译。我这一次靠原文靠的近一点，比如把贾宝玉跟他祖母的称呼法按照原文翻译了。当然这个会给当代西方读者一种陌生感，但是会多给他提供一种原文的味儿。

比如我未出版的120章全译本中（有可能在将来也要单独的发表），很多人名的翻译也考虑到了人名的中文含义。

Now, for the time being, a careful, complete translation with explanations is available. Maybe within 2021, the fifth edition can be published, which will be improved according to colleagues' opinions and their own re-understanding of the original text. For example, in my unpublished full translation of 120 chapters, the translation of many names also takes into account the Chinese meaning of names. [What amendments will you make in the fifth edition of the Chamber? Could you please list some? ]

=3 欧洲红学=

段：您曾在国内红学权威刊物《红楼梦学刊》上发表过三篇文章，以德国人的视角叙述西方对《红楼梦》的了解，并介绍德译本情况以及西方学者的理解及评价。从这三篇文章可以看出，《红楼梦》在西方的传播已变换形式，由文本本身的传播向舞台剧等多模态形态发展。请问现今欧洲的红学研究、传播现状如何？您认为《红楼梦》对国内外读者有何影响？

You have published three articles in the Journal of Dreams of the Red Chamber, an authoritative journal of red studies in China, describing the Western understanding of Dreams of the Red Chamber from a German perspective, and introducing the German translation as well as the understanding and evaluation of Western scholars. From these three articles, we can see that the dissemination of Dream of the Red Chamber in the West has changed from the text itself to a multimodal form, such as a stage play. What is the current status of the study and dissemination of Redology in Europe?

吴：最重要的是，我想还没有译本的另一半欧洲国家也会有译本。再有就是西方尤其是美国对《红楼梦》的研究，用现代的理论来关注小说的一些重要方面，比如 "感情"、"同性恋"等。每隔几年就会有一次HLM会议。在这里，整理一下以前的研究，写一部西方学者参与小说的历史是很重要的。

Most importantly, I think that the other half of European countries that do not yet have a translation will also get one. Then there is HLM research in the West, especially in the U.S., which uses modern theories to focus on some important aspects of the novel, such as “feeling, homosexuality, etc”. Every few years there is an HLM conference. Here it would be important to compile previous research and write a history of scholarly engagement with the novel in the West.

《红楼梦》应该成为世界文化遗产。西方的读者也有自己与小说的关系。对主人公的认同尽管有文化和历史的距离，但还是能跨越空间和时间的距离。

The Dream of the Red Chamber should become a world cultural heritage. Readers in the West also have their own relationship to the novel. Identification with the hero works despite the cultural and historical distance, the distance can get across space and time.

我对小说在西方的接受情况进行了开创性的研究。在这样做的过程中，我证明了这部小说的传播速度非常快，包括在节选翻译中，但这并没有获得世界文学在西方的认可，直到76年后，它在中国出版，48年后，它的第一个节选翻译在欧洲。这一方面是因为完整的译本需要很长时间才能问世，另一方面是因为许多西方汉学家、文化中介和翻译家的民族中心主义世界观。

I conducted a pioneering study on the reception of the novel in the West. In doing so, I demonstrated that the novel spread very quickly, including in excerpt translations, but that did not gain recognition as world literature in the West until 76 years after its publication in China and 48 years after its first excerpt translations in Europe. This was partly because it took a long time for complete translations to become available, and partly because of the ethnocentric worldview of many Western sinologists, cultural mediators, and translators.

近来，对《红楼梦》的翻译也有研究，但遗憾的是往往是中国学者没有与西方学者交流。为了在这里达到更高的质量，中国同事的成果在发表前应该由他们必不可少的同事审阅。无论如何，无论在中国还是在西方，小说的跨文化研究都是一个新的领域。

Recently, translations of the novel have also been studied, but unfortunately often by Chinese scholars without exchange with Western scholars. In order to achieve higher quality here, Chinese colleagues should have their results reviewed by their essential colleagues before publication. In any case, a new field, both in China and in the West, is cross-cultural studies on the novel.

欧洲红学经常从自己的文化背景通过比较文学和跨国文化的角度来理解《红楼梦》。最近几百年，长片小说在中国和在欧洲都是“时代精神”的体现。《红楼梦》于1791年首次出版，其创作背景是中国少数民族之一的满族统治下的清朝，曹家或受康熙宠信或备受雍正冷落以致抄家没落。囿于时代背景，作者在当时无法公开批判帝制皇权，但在小说中，他在家庭日益衰败（从事道教、闲暇、诗歌创作、艺术和音乐，而不是为了能够谋生而学习）和自己没有实现作为家族继承人的期望中，寻求被迫害的根源。这种对名家望族没落之路的描写使我们想起了契诃夫的小说。此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的纪实性历史小说《铁皮鼓》(1959年)非常相似。最值得一提的是《红楼梦》和托马斯·曼的《布登勃洛克一家》（1901年）。两部小说都描写了出生富贵的年轻一代人的颓废、没落、溃散，以及一个家族的社会地位和经济状况的逐渐没落与覆灭。托马斯·曼的小说是以资产阶级社会的巨大变革为背景，而曹雪芹的作品则选取了某个朝代的更迭时期作为时代背景，在其中帝王利益与家族利益发生了冲突! 有趣的是，两部作品中的主要角色都挑选了英年早逝的类似人物。《红楼梦》里林黛玉为情而亡，秦可卿因跟她丈夫的父亲做爱自尽，贾元春和妙玉也是突然死亡。在《布登勃洛克一家》里克拉拉在婚后不久即死于脑结核，托马斯在牙科手术后去世，汉诺死于伤寒。两部作品都在结构和主题上运用了影射等大量的艺术手法，以丰富的故事进展描绘出一幅衰败的景象。因此，这种并行发展令人惊讶，很难说《布登勃洛克一家》的创作没受到《红楼梦》的影响。

European Redology often understands The Dream of the Red Chamber from its own cultural background through a comparative literary and transnational cultural perspective. During the last few hundred years, novels in China and Europe are the embodiment of "the spirit of the times". A Dream of Red Mansions was first published in 1791. Its creation background was the Qing Dynasty under the rule of Manchu, one of China's ethnic minorities. The Cao family was either favored by Kangxi or neglected by Yongzheng, resulting in the decline of property ownership. Constrained by the background of the times, the author could not publicly criticize the imperial power at that time, but in the novel, he sought the root of persecution in the declining family (engaged in Taoism, leisure, poetry creation, art and music, instead of studying in order to make a living) and his failure to realize his expectation of being the heir of the family. This decadent description of declining families reminds us of Chekhov's novels. In addition, the detailed description of the life of all social strata in the early Qing Dynasty in A Dream of Red Mansions is very similar to Gunter Grass's documentary historical novel Tin Drum (1959). The most noteworthy ones are A Dream of Red Mansions and Thomas Mann's Budenbrock Family (1901). Both novels describe the decadence, decline and collapse of the wealthy young generation, as well as the gradual decline and collapse of a family's social status and economic situation. Thomas Mann's novels are set against the background of great changes in bourgeois society, while Cao Xueqin's works choose the change period of a certain dynasty as the background of the times, in which the interests of emperors and families conflict! Interestingly, the main characters in the two works have chosen similar characters who died young. In a Dream of Red Mansions, Lin Daiyu died of love, Qin Keqing committed suicide due to sex with her husband's father, and Jia Yuanchun and Miaoyu also died suddenly. In the Budenbrock Family, Clara died of brain tuberculosis shortly after marriage, Thomas died after dental surgery, and Hanno died of typhoid fever. Both works use a lot of artistic techniques such as innuendo in structure and theme, and depict a declining scene with rich story progress. Therefore, this parallel development is surprising. It is hard to say that the creation of the Budenbrook Family was not influenced by a Dream of Red Mansions.

=4.现今欧洲汉学=
段：您曾在欧洲多所学校任教，请问现今欧洲汉学的研究状况如何？

You have taught in many European schools. What is the current research status of Sinology in Europe?

吴：有时我也会想一想

I think, to evaluate European Sinology, one should look at the history, at the conferences, ongoing research projects, publications, like "European Journal of Sinology", "European Journal of Chinese Studies" and institutions.

Sometimes I think about the question, if there is Sinology in Europe at all. At other times, I doubt if there is Sinology outside of Europe. At least we can see from genetic evidence, that there was early exchange of domesticated crops and animals as well as culture between China and the Middle East as well as between the Middle East and Europe. Later, the Roman Empire started diplomatic contacts with Han# Empire and soon after we have European merchants arriving in China. Although the main population in Europe stayed ethnocentric for a long time, and founded its knowledge on compendium like #, among those early merchants the first experts changed the view on the Chinese culture towards a more fact-based one, prepared the ground for missionaries, who described China in much more detail and paved the way for the first scholarly experts, who changed the perception towards a scientific one, based on observations, explorations, analysis and interpretation.

Scholarship on China in Europe started with single experts like merchants and missionaries, who often learned the language and travelled to China. It was institutionalized with the first language schools. Later, the first chairs for professors of Chinese Studies were established. Today, we have more than 200 Professors of Chinese Studies in the United States (most of them Professors of History or Language), a growing number of them are US citizens of Chinese heritage or even Chinese citizens. In Europe, France seems to be the country with the most high schools and colleges where Chinese is taught as a foreign language. However, the English and German speaking countries seems to be the regions with the most Chinese Studies professors, often specializing in Traditional Literature, Modern Literature, Philosophy, History, Politics or Economy. A major difference exists between modern and traditional Chinese Studies. Since "Chinese Studies" sounds exotic, it is often considered area studies or people have a double qualification as sociologists, anthropologists, linguists, scholars of letter etc. Therefore, it is difficult to count the number of professorships, but they may range up to 20 in the German-speaking countries and # in Great Britain.

When we evaluate European Sinology, we have to come to terms with the past. For a long time, starting with philosophers in the 18th century, China was idealized or demonized. However, even after Western scholarship claimed the monopoly to interpret China, it tried to explain the so-called "stagnation" of Chinese society with "Confucianism" or with genetical/nutritional reasons. Often it were the same sinologists, who then, after China proved them wrong with its economical boom, again found the reason for this development in "Confucianism".
Similarly, a lot of Western sinologists in the 1960s demonstrated in Western streets with Mao's "red bible" in their hands.
Both times, science and scholarship was mislead by a certain expectation or single-sided understanding of China. To project one's own expectation from someone else upon him is called "ethnocentrism". International Chinese Studies has to admit that it had committed mistakes in the past as a first step to actually write something substantial in the book of the exploration of China.
Of course, not just Western Chinese Studies is to be blamed to have committed mistakes. Chinese China Studies (guoxue) was and partly is also affected by these expectations and projections caused by chauvinism and cultural relativism. A first step for Chinese China Studies would be to learn more languages, like Japanese and English, in order to be able to see their own culture through the mirror of the foreign perception.

Main contributions of European Sinology in the past were: ...#

Main contributions today concentrate on the specializations of the chairs, like ...#

=5 为何从古典文学的翻译转向中国现当代文学的翻译？=

段：除了《红楼梦》这一代表译作之外，您还翻译了包括鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱锺书、韩少功、贾平凹等在内的一批著名作家的优秀作品。可否谈谈为什么选择不同时代作家的作品？您又是如何再现他们不同的写作风格？

This question intends to know about why you choose to translate works of those writers. Is it because of personal interests or the publisher asking you to do so?
I think the section of Xu Zechen serves as good interview answers. As Chinese readers, we are desperate to know what things are like from Westerners’ perspective.

为何从古典文学的翻译转向中国现当代文学的翻译？

Why did you shift from the translation of classical literature to the translation of modern and contemporary Chinese literature?

吴：不同时代的作品反映出不同的时代背景，这些作品对我个人而言是很好的窗口，可以窥探不同时期中国的社会面貌，还可与同期的欧洲文学进行比较。贾平凹作为20世纪80年代以来中国最伟大的作家之一，英译本很少。究其原因，首先在于他的作品植根于山西农村，带有浓重的地域风俗习惯。首先读懂原文对译者来说就是一项挑战，更不用提在译入语中找到对应的表达。我在翻译贾平凹的XX中就遇到了这个问题。。。。。。。。[Can you list some difficulties when translating Jia Pingwa’s or any other author’s works? We like the details.]

The works of different times reflect different backgrounds of the times. These works are a good window for me personally. I can spy on the social outlook of China in different periods and compare them with European literature in the same period. Jia Pingwa, as one of the greatest writers in China since 1980s, has few English versions. The reason lies in the fact that his works are rooted in Shanxi rural areas and have strong regional customs. It is a challenge for translators to understand the original text first, not to mention finding the corresponding expression in the target language. I encountered this problem in translating Jia Pingwa's XX. . . . . . . .

对于译者来说，翻译不同作者的作品时面对的翻译难点不同。而不同的译者有着不同的处理方式，这也能解释为何同一部作品有几个翻译版本，且翻译策略各有不同。我深知译者的文化背景对译本翻译策略的选择有很大影响，所以有些作品即便存在译本，我还是选择重新翻译。从鲁迅的短篇小说中，我们可以读出作者内心的矛盾：文学能改变世界吗？难道一定要身体力行才能改变世界吗？难道连唤醒那些像阿Q一样任由自己被牵着走，任人宰割的昏昏欲睡的同胞们也能做到吗？当无法改变自己和社会的命运时，唤醒他们还有什么用呢？作为译者，我们如何再现这种矛盾心理，如何处理鲁迅在翻译中有些古板的早期白话，如何与他对日常政治事件的论述。这些都是翻译中必不可免的问题。目前已有的鲁迅作品德译本在这些方面的处理方式多样。巴金在受到批评后修改了三部曲之一的《家》，删除了缠足现象。在翻译这部作品的过程中，译者必须决定是翻译原版还是删减后的版本。

For translators, translation difficulties are different when translating works of different authors. Different translators have different ways of dealing with it, which can explain why there are several translated versions of the same work and the translation strategies are different. I know that the translator's cultural background has a great influence on the choice of translation strategies, so I choose to retranslate some works even if there are translations. From Lu Xun's short stories, we can read the author's inner contradiction: Can literature change the world? Do you have to practice to change the world? Can we even wake up those sleepy compatriots who let themselves be led and slaughtered like Ah Q? What's the use of awakening them when they can't change their own destiny and that of society? As translators, how do we reproduce this ambivalence, how do we deal with Lu Xun's rigid early vernacular in translation, and how do we communicate with his exposition of daily political events? These are all inevitable problems in translation. At present, the existing German versions of Lu Xun's works deal with these aspects in various ways. After being criticized, Ba Jin revised Home, one of the trilogy, and deleted foot binding. In the process of translating this work, the translator must decide whether to translate the original version or the abridged version.

我个人很喜欢徐则臣的作品。在2009年（北上2015年才出版）[Is this book called <北上>？]的法兰克福书展上，他的故事《北上》受到广泛好评。事实上，他的生活经历与我有些重叠部分。我们都在北京大学学习过，只不过他比我早入学一点（多久）。当时校园里有一种亚文化，博士生们住在餐厅旁边的闲置房间里，因为他们对大学里的人、办事流程了如指掌，而且在独立的诗歌和艺术界也有联系，所以每逢有聚会，他们都很抢手，大家竞相邀请他们参加聚会。那时的大学涌现着一股乐观主义的精神，起初门外涌现出私营商业市场，后来校园里传出“开公司”的口号。那时，毕业生不愿毕业就被分入特定的工作岗位，身上的自由和责任感促使他们闯一闯这个世界。故事里拿着盗版产品的街边小贩和软件开发产品的学生先锋也是这幅画的一部分。徐则臣将这种气氛真实地捕捉到，令人信服。他笔下的人物在我们心上扎根，爱上他们，学会在生活中打拼。也是这种情感体验上的共鸣促使我翻译《北上》这部作品。

Personally, I like Xu Zechen's works very much. At the Frankfurt Book Fair in 2009 (published in 2015), his story "Going North" was widely praised. In fact, his life experience overlaps with mine. We all studied at Peking University, but he entered school a little earlier than me. At that time, there was a subculture on campus. Doctoral students lived in idle rooms next to restaurants. Because they knew the people and procedures in the university like the back of their hand, and they also had contacts in independent poetry and art circles, they were very popular whenever there was a party, and everyone invited them to attend the party. At that time, there was a spirit of optimism in universities. At first, private commercial markets emerged outside the doors. Later, the slogan of "starting a company" came out on campus. At that time, graduates were assigned to specific jobs without graduating, and their freedom and sense of responsibility prompted them to enter the world. Street vendors with pirated products and student pioneers with software development products in the story are also part of this painting. Xu Zechen captured this atmosphere truly and convincingly. His characters take root in our hearts, fall in love with them and learn to work hard in life. It is also this resonance in emotional experience that prompted me to translate the work "North".

Es gibt viel mehr Übersetzungen westlicher Literatur in China als chinesischer Literatur im Westen. Hier hat der Westen großen Nachholbedarf. Natürlich ist es auch im heutigen China wichtig, dass endlich Paul Celan komplett ins Chinesische übersetzt wird, wofür z.B. der Dichter Wang Jiaxin Großes leistet.

There are many more translations of Western literature in China than of Chinese literature in the West. Here, the West has a lot of catching up to do. Of course, it is also important in today’s China that Paul Celan is finally translated completely into Chinese, for which, for example, the poet Wang Jiaxin is doing great things.

中国翻译的西方文学作品比西方翻译的中国文学作品多得多。在这里，西方国家还有很多事情要做。当然，在今天的中国，保罗-塞兰终于被完全翻译成中文也是很重要的，为此，比如诗人王家新就做了很大的努力。

Chinawissenschaftler müssen auch als Übersetzer arbeiten. Viele Werke chinesischer Autoren der Moderne und auch Gegenwartsautoren sind im Westen noch zu wenig bekannt. Einer der größten chinesischen Autoren seit den 1980er Jahren, Jia Pingwa liegt kaum in englischer Übersetzung vor. Der Grund ist vor allem die Schwierigkeit, seine im ländlichen Shaanxi verhafteten Geschichten, die von regionalen Sitten und Gebräuchen gefärbt sind, adäquat in die westliche Sprache zu bringen.

Chinese scholars must also work as translators. Many works by Chinese authors of the modern era and also contemporary authors are still too little known in the West. One of the greatest Chinese authors since the 1980s, Jia Pingwa is hardly available in English translation. The reason is mainly the difficulty of adequately translating his stories, which are rooted in rural Shaanxi and colored by regional customs and traditions, into Western language.

中国学者也必须从事翻译工作。中国现代和当代作家的许多作品在西方还太少为人所知。作为20世纪80年代以来中国最伟大的作家之一，贾平凹几乎没有英译本。主要原因是，他的故事植根于陕西农村，带有地域风俗和传统色彩，很难充分翻译成西方语言。

Wenn aber chinesische Literatur ein ganz selbstverständlicher Teil der Weltliteratur werden soll, muss sie von ausländischen Muttersprachlern in deren Sprache übersetzt werden. Kein englischer oder amerikanischer Leser würde freiwillig die Yang/Yang-Übersetzung des Traums der Roten Kammer lesen, wenn er auch die Hawkes/Minford-Übersetzung lesen kann. Der Übersetzer fragt sich, ob er die Namen der Bedeutung nach übersetzen soll, ob man den Traum der Roten Kammer aus Sicht des Klassenkampfes übersetzen und den Sklavencharakter der Dienstboten im Hause Jia betonen soll, auch wenn diese wieder Dienstboten hatten und die Idee des Klassenkampfes erst sehr viel später geboren wurde?

But if Chinese literature is to become a natural part of world literature, it must be translated by foreign native speakers into their language. No English or American reader would voluntarily read the Yang/Yang translation of The Dream of the Red Chamber if he could also read the Hawkes/Minford translation. The translator wonders whether to translate the names according to meaning, whether to translate the Dream of the Red Chamber from the point of view of class struggle and emphasize the slave character of the servants in the House of Jia, even though they again had servants and the idea of class struggle was born much later?

但是，中国文学要想成为世界文学的自然组成部分，就必须由外国母语者将其翻译成他们的语言。如果英美读者也能读到霍克斯/明福的译本，没有一个英美读者会主动去读杨/杨的《红楼梦》。译者在想，要不要按意思翻译名字，要不要从阶级斗争的角度来翻译《红楼梦》，要不要强调贾府中仆人的奴性，尽管他们又有仆人，阶级斗争的思想产生得更晚？

Jeder Autor muss anders übersetzt werden. Aus Lu Xuns Kurzgeschichten lässt sich seine Zerrissenheit lesen: Kann Literatur Welt verändern? Muss man körperlich aktiv werden, um die Welt zu ändern? Kann man die stumpfe Masse lethargischer Landsleute, die sich wie Ah Q zur Schlachtbank führen lassen, überhaupt aufrütteln? Nützt es etwas, sie aufzurütteln, wenn sie doch nichts an ihrem Schicksal und dem der Gesellschaft ändern können? Lu Xuns ergreifende Bilder wie das des Eisenhauses oder des Wasserbüffels wirken auch im Westen. Wie gehen wir als Übersetzer mit dem etwas antiquiert wirkenden frühen Baihua bei Lu Xun in der Übersetzung um? Wie mit seinen Polemiken über tagespolitische Ereignisse, die heute oft vergessen sind? Das sind wichtige Fragen. Die bisher vorliegenden Übersetzungen von Lu Xun im Deutschen sind heterogen.

Each author must be translated differently. From Lu Xun’s short stories, one can read his brokenness: Can literature change world? Do you have to become physically active to change the world? Is it even possible to rouse the dull mass of lethargic compatriots who allow themselves to be led to the slaughter like Ah Q? Is there any use in rousing them, when they can do nothing to change their fate and that of society? Lu Xun’s poignant images like that of the iron house or the water buffalo also have an effect in the West. As translators, how do we deal with Lu Xun’s somewhat antiquated early baihua in translation? How with his polemics about daily political events, which are often forgotten today? These are important questions. The translations of Lu Xun in German available so far are heterogeneous.

每个作者的翻译必须不同。从鲁迅的短篇小说中，可以读出他内心的矛盾。文学能改变世界吗？难道一定要身体力行才能改变世界吗？难道连唤醒那些像阿Q一样任由自己被牵着走，任人宰割的昏昏欲睡的同胞们也能做到吗？当他们无法改变自己和社会的命运时，唤醒他们还有什么用呢？鲁迅笔下的铁屋子、水牛等凄美的形象，在西方也有影响。作为译者，我们如何处理鲁迅在翻译中有些古板的早期白话？如何与他对日常政治事件的论述，今天常常被人遗忘？这些都是重要的问题。目前已有的鲁迅的德文译本异彩纷呈。

Wang Meng wurde früh mit seinem Revolutions-begeisterten schwärmerischen Jugendroman "Lang lebe die Jugend!" berühmt, in dem sich revolutionärer Enthusiasmus und Jugendliebe vermischten. Nach der Kulturrevolution und langer Zeit in Xinjiang wurde Wang Meng mit seinen Geschichten "Der Neuling in der Organisationsabteilung", "Augen der Nacht" (im Bewusstseinsstrom) und "Zäher Brei" als experimentierfreudiger und kritischer Autor bekannt. Ich habe Bücher über seine Essays am Ende meines Bachelor- und Masterstudiums geschrieben und jüngst einen Band seiner Lebenserinnerungen ins Deutsche und mit einer US-Amerikanerin zusammen ins Englische übersetzt: 《中國天機》王蒙著Wang Meng: China – enträtselt, 波鸿：欧洲大学出版社 Bochum: European University Press 2017, ISBN 978-3-86515-888-8 (E-Book ISBN 978-3-86515-889-5) [英文版]《中國天機》王蒙著Wang Meng: “China – deciphered”, 奥勒姆：美国学术出版社 Academic Press of the USA Orem 2017, 978-1-68202-888-9 (E-Book -889-6, co-translated with Licia Kim)

Wang Meng rose to fame early with his revolution-inspired rapturous youth novel "Long Live Youth!", which mixed revolutionary enthusiasm and youthful love. After the Cultural Revolution and a long time in Xinjiang, Wang Meng became known as an experimental and critical writer with his stories "The Newcomer in the Organization Department", "Eyes of Night" (in Stream of Consciousness) and "Tough Porridge". I wrote books of his essays at the end of my bachelor's and master's studies and recently translated a volume of his memoirs into German and into English together with a US-American woman: 《中國天機》王蒙著Wang Meng: China - Enträtselt, 波鸿：欧洲大学出版社 Bochum: European University Press 2017, ISBN 978-3-86515-888-8 (e-book ISBN 978-3-86515-889-5) [英文版]《中國天機》王蒙著Wang Meng: "China - deciphered," 奥勒姆：美国学术出版社 Academic Press of the USA Orem 2017, 978-1-68202-888-9 (e-book -889-6, co-translated with Licia Kim)

王蒙成名很早，他的革命题材狂欢青春小说《青春万岁！》，将革命热情和青春爱情融为一体。文革后，长期在新疆，王蒙以《组织部的新人》、《夜的眼睛》（载于《意识流》）、《熬粥》等小说而闻名于世，是一位实验性、批判性作家。我在学士和硕士毕业时写过他的散文集，最近又把他的一卷回忆录译成德文，并和一位美籍女子一起译成英文。《中国天机》王蒙著王蒙：《中国-揭秘》，波鸿：欧洲大学出版社2017年，ISBN 978-3-86515-888-8（电子书ISBN 978-3-86515-889-5）英文版]《中国天机》王蒙著王蒙：《中国-解密》，奥勒姆：美国学术出版社2017年版，978-1-68202-888-9（电子书-889-6，与Licia Kim合译）。

Von Zhu Ziqing habe ich "Die Rückenansicht" übersetzt, eine beeindruckende Hommage an seinen Vater in Form eines erzählerischen Essays.

By Zhu Ziqing, I translated "The Back View," an impressive tribute to his father in the form of a narrative essay.

作者：朱自清我翻译了《背影》，以记叙文的形式向父亲致敬，令人惊叹。

Ziemlich bekannt ist Zhus Essay "綠" (Grün), in dem er die Schönheit des Meiyu-Teichs (梅雨潭) und des Wasserfalls in den Mittleren Yandang-Bergen in Wenzhou beschreibt, die er 1923 besuchte.

Quite well known is Zhu's essay "綠" (Green), in which he described the beauty of Meiyu Pond (梅雨潭) and waterfall in the Middle Yandang Mountains in Wenzhou, which he visited in 1923.

颇为著名的是朱自清的《绿》一文。其中描述了他1923年到温州雁荡山中段梅雨潭和瀑布的美景。

Bing Xin ist eine bekannte Kinderbuchautorin, die nach der Kulturrevolution ihre Reihe „Briefe an die Kinder“ nahtlos fortsetzte, als wäre nichts geschehen.

Bing Xin is a well-known children's author who seamlessly continued her series of "Letters to Children " after the Cultural Revolution as if nothing had happened.

冰心是著名的儿童文学作家，她在 "文革 "后无缝衔接地继续她的 "给孩子的信 "系列，仿佛什么都没有发生过。

Ba Jin hat unvergleichliche Literatur hinterlassen, seine Trilogie „Die Familie“ hat er nach Kritik überarbeitet und zum Beispiel das Phänomen des Füßebindens gestrichen. Hier muss der Übersetzer entscheiden, ob er die Ursprungs-Fassung oder die überarbeitete übersetzen möchte.

Ba Jin left behind incomparable literature; he revised his trilogy "The Family" after criticism and, for example, deleted the phenomenon of foot-binding. Here, the translator must decide whether to translate the original version or the revised one.

巴金留下了不可多得的文学作品，他在批评后修改了三部曲《家》，比如删除了缠足现象。在这里，译者必须决定是翻译原版还是修订版。

Qian Zhongshu ist der weltläufigste chinesische Schriftsteller seiner Zeit, seine anspruchsvollen Texte zu übersetzen bereitet Freude, da er sich in europäischer Literatur gut auskennt und Motive aus zahlreichen westlichen Werken zitiert oder auf diese anspielt. Sowohl sein Roman "Umzingelte Festung" (Weicheng, 1947), der das Leben eines Universitäts-Dozenten-Ehepaares thematisiert, ist unvergessen, als auch seine vier meisterhaften Kurzgeschichten "Human, Beast, Ghost" (1946). Seine anspruchsvollen Essays aus den Sammlungen "Written in the Margins of Life" (1941), Guanzhui bian (1979-80) und Patchwork: Seven Essays on Art and Literature zeigen, wie Qian Zhongshu meisterhaft die verschiedenen Erscheinungsformen des Teufels durch die Weltliteratur folgt als auch philosophisch über die Funktion von Fenstern und Türen räsoniert.

Qian Zhongshu is the most worldly Chinese writer of his time; translating his sophisticated texts is a pleasure, as he is well versed in European literature and quotes or alludes to motifs from numerous Western works. Both his novel "Encircled Fortress" (Weicheng, 1947), which focuses on the life of a university lecturer couple, and his four masterful short stories "Human, Beast, Ghost" (1946) are unforgotten. His sophisticated essays from the collections Written in the Margins of Life (1941), Guanzhui bian (1979-80), and Patchwork: Seven Essays on Art and Literature show how Qian Zhongshu masterfully follows the various manifestations of the devil through world literature as well as philosophically ruminates on the function of windows and doors.

钱钟书是中国当代最具世界性的作家，翻译他的复杂文字是一种享受，因为他精通欧洲文学，并引用或暗示了众多西方作品的主题。无论是他以大学讲师夫妇生活为题材的小说《包围堡垒》（潍城，1947年），还是他的四部杰作短篇小说《人、兽、鬼》（1946年），都让人难以忘怀。他从《写在生活的边缘》（1941年）、《观水扁》（1979-80年）、《拼凑：七篇艺术与文学论文》等文集中的精致文章，展示了钱钟书如何娴熟地通过世界文学追寻魔鬼的各种表现形式，以及对门窗功能的哲学思考。

Han Shaogong, bekannt durch seine Führung der literarischen Bewegung "Root-seeking literature" (xungen) beschreibt in seinen zahlreichen Erzählungen mit seiner präzisen, geduldsamen und unabhängigen Stimme die Einzigartigkeit von Hunans ländlicher Kultur. Ich habe mit großer Freude zwei seiner Erzählungen übersetzt: 《怒目金刚》韩少功著, Han Shaogong. Der zornige Blick von Buddhas Wächter. 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-216-9 《空院残月》韩少功著, Han Shaogong. Der verblassende Mond über dem verlassenen Innenhof, 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press 2018, ISBN 9783865152176

Han Shaogong, known for his leadership of the Root-seeking literature (xungen) literary movement, describes the uniqueness of Hunan's rural culture in his many narratives with his precise, patient, and independent voice. I have translated two of his narratives with great pleasure: 《怒目金刚》韩少功著, Han Shaogong. The angry look of Buddha's guardian. 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-216-9. 《空院残月》韩少功著, Han Shaogong. The fading moon over the deserted courtyard, 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press 2018, ISBN 9783865152176.

以领导寻根文学(xungen)文学运动而闻名于世的韩少功，在他的大量叙述中，以其准确、耐心、独立的声音，描述了湖南乡村文化的独特性。我非常高兴地翻译了他的两篇叙事。《怒目金刚》韩少功著，韩少功。佛陀护法愤怒的样子。德国波鸿：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-216-9（销售量：1000）。《空院残月》韩少功著，韩少功。荒芜庭院上的凋零的月亮》，德国波鸿：欧洲大学出版社Bochum：欧洲大学出版社2018年，ISBN 9783865152176（销售量：1000）。

Yu Qiuyu ist ein großartiger chinesischer Drama- und Kunsthistoriker und Schriftsteller, der einen guten Überblick über die moderne chinesische Kunstgeschichte hat und diese in verständlichen Worten zu vermitteln weiß. Seine Stimme hatte nicht nur in der chinesischen Kulturbürokratie und in Taiwan Gehör, er scheute auch die Auseinandersetzung nicht, die seine Berichte an das Kulturministerium und seine Inspektionsreisen produzierten. Vor den Vereinten Nationen setzte er sich gegen die polarisierende Pamphlet Samuel P. Huntington's vom "Clash of Civilizations" ein und wurde Dekan an der Fakultät für Geisteswissenschaften der Macao University of Science and Technology. Ich habe von ihm zwei Bücher übersetzt: 《昆曲纵论》余秋雨著, Yu Qiuyu. Über die Kun-Oper 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-215-2 《书法史述》余秋雨著Yu, Qiuyu: Geschichte der Kalligraphie in Erzählform / Yu Qiuyu ; 波鸿：欧洲大学出版社 Bochum: Europ. Univ.-vlg. 2017, Reihe Sinica 44, ISBN 978-3-86515-218-3

Yu Qiuyu is a great Chinese drama and art historian and writer who has a good overview of modern Chinese art history and knows how to convey it in understandable terms. His voice was not only heard in the Chinese cultural bureaucracy and in Taiwan, he also did not shy away from the controversy that his reports to the Ministry of Culture and his inspection tours produced. At the United Nations, he lobbied against Samuel P. Huntington's polarizing pamphlet of the "Clash of Civilizations" and became dean at the Faculty of Humanities at Macao University of Science and Technology. I have translated two books by him: 《昆曲纵论》余秋雨著, Yu Qiuyu. On Kun Opera 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-215-《书法史述》余秋雨著Yu, Qiuyu: History of calligraphy in narrative form / Yu Qiuyu ; 波鸿：欧洲大学出版社 Bochum: Europ. Univ.-vlg. 2017, Sinica 44 series, ISBN 978-3-86515-218-3.

余秋雨是一位伟大的中国戏剧艺术史家和作家，他对中国现代艺术史有很好的概括，知道如何用通俗易懂的语言来传达。他的声音不仅在中国文化官僚机构和台湾有了听众，他也不避讳他向文化部的报告和考察所产生的争议。在联合国，他游说反对塞缪尔-P-亨廷顿的 "文明冲突 "的极端化小册子，并担任澳门科技大学人文学院院长。我曾翻译过他的两本书。《昆曲纵论》余秋雨著，余秋雨。On Kun Opera 德国波鸿：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-215-2. 书法史述》余秋雨著/余秋雨 ; 波鸿：欧洲大学出版社波鸿：Europ. Univ.-vlg. 2017, Sinica 44 series, ISBN 978-3-86515-218-3.

Xu Zechen liegt mir persönlich sehr am Herzen. Auf der Frankfurter Buchmesse 2009# kam seine Erzählung „Im Laufschritt durch Peking“ gut an. Ich habe einen persönlichen Bezug zu seinen Geschichten, da er kurz vor mir an der Peking-Universität studiert hat. Damals gab es auf dem Campus eine Art Subkultur, Doktoranden, die in ungenutzten Räumen neben den Restaurants wohnten und begehrte Partyteilnehmer waren, da sie die Universität incl. Personen, Abläufe und Gepflogenheiten wie ihre Westentasche kannten und Kontakte in die freie Dichter- und Künstlerszene hatten. Es herrschte eine Aufbruchstimmung an der Universität, zunächst entstanden vor den Toren privatwirtschaftliche Märkte, später hörte man das Motto „eine Firma eröffnen“ (kai gongsi) auf dem Campus. Damals begann es, dass die Absolventen nicht mehr nur auf einen Beruf zugeteilt wurden, sondern sich selbst darum kümmerten und sowohl Freiheit wie Verantwortung spürten. Auch Straßenhändler mit Raubkopien und studentische Pioniere der Software-Entwicklung gehörten zu diesem Bild. Xu Zechen erfasst diese Atmosphäre authentisch und fesselnd. Wir fiebern mit seinen Charakteren mit, verlieben uns mit ihnen und lernen, uns durchs Leben zu schlagen. Von ihm habe ich folgendes Buch übersetzt:《啊北京》徐则臣著 Xu Zechen: Ach, Peking!, 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社 Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-220-7

Xu Zechen is very close to my heart personally. At the 2009# Frankfurt Book Fair, his story "Running through Beijing" was well received. I have a personal connection to his stories because he studied at Peking University shortly before me. At that time there was a kind of subculture on campus, doctoral students who lived in unused rooms next to the restaurants and were sought-after party participants, since they knew the university incl. people, procedures and customs like the back of their hand and had contacts in the independent poetry and art scene. There was a spirit of optimism at the university; at first, private markets sprang up outside the gates, and later the slogan "open a company" (kai gongsi) was heard on campus. It was then that graduates began to feel both freedom and responsibility, rather than being assigned to a job. Street vendors with pirated products and student pioneers of software development were also part of this picture. Xu Zechen captures this atmosphere authentically and compellingly. We root for his characters, fall in love with them, and learn to make our way through life. From him, I have translated the following book:《啊北京》徐则臣著 Xu Zechen: Ah, Beijing, 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社 Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-220-7.

徐则臣个人对我的感情很深。在2009年法兰克福书展上#，他的故事《跑过北京》受到好评。我和他的故事有切身的联系，因为他比我早在北京大学读书不久。当时校园里有一种亚文化，博士生们住在餐厅旁边的闲置房间里，是很抢手的聚会参与者，因为他们对大学里的人、程序和风俗习惯了如指掌，而且在独立的诗歌和艺术界也有联系。大学里有一种乐观主义的精神，起初门外涌现出私营商业市场，后来校园里传出 "开公司"（kai gongsi）的口号。那时，毕业生们开始感受到自由和责任，而不是被分配到一个工作岗位上。拿着盗版产品的街边小贩和软件开发的学生先锋也是这幅画的一部分。徐则臣将这种气氛真实地捕捉到，令人信服。我们为他笔下的人物扎根，爱上他们，学会在生活中打拼。我从他那里翻译了以下书：《啊北京》徐则臣著徐则臣。啊，北京，德国波鸿：欧洲大学出版社波鸿：欧洲大学出版社，ISBN 978-3-86515-220-7。

Einer der wichtigsten chinesischen Schriftsteller der Gegenwart ist Han Han. Viele kennen ihn nur als Rennfahrer, Blogger, Sänger oder ähnliches. Aber diese Eigenschaft des „Multi-Artist“ ist ein Teil seines Schriftstellertums. Ich habe ihn in der modernen Harvard Literaturgeschichte Chinas mit einem Kapitel vorgestellt. An der Harvard-Universität und auf der AAS-Konferenz in den USA habe ich Han Han mit Lu Xun verglichen: Beide waren Meinungsführer, stritten sich auch öffentlich und es ging um ähnliche Themen. Allerdings verdankte Lu Xun seine Autorität seiner Gelehrsamkeit und Wortkunst, Han Han seiner Berühmtheit als Celebrity. Han Hans Werke sind schwer zu übersetzen, da er über einen großen Wortschatz und klassische Zitate verfügt, und da der Handlungsfaden seiner Erzählungen Kapriolen schlägt, die durch wörtlich genommene Redensarten, Metaphern oder Allegorien ausgelöst werden, und diese uneigentliche Rede in der Übersetzung oft andere Bedeutungen hat oder schlicht nicht existiert, ist er einer der am schwersten zu übersetzenden Autoren. Han Han hat mit seinen grotesken Elementen und tragischen Helden eine neue Literatur, die des kritischen Surrealismus geschaffen, die durchaus an Miguel de Cervantes und Lu Xun heranreicht.

One of the most important contemporary Chinese writers is Han Han. Many know him only as a racing driver, blogger, singer or the like. But this characteristic of being a "multi-artist" is a part of his writing. I featured him with a chapter in the modern Harvard Literary History of China. At Harvard University and at the AAS conference in the US, I compared Han Han with Lu Xun: Both were opinion leaders, also argued publicly, and the issues were similar. However, Lu Xun owed his authority to his scholarship and wordcraft, Han Han to his celebrity fame. Han Han's works are difficult to translate because of his large vocabulary and classical quotations, and because the plot thread of his stories makes capers triggered by literal idioms, metaphors, or allegories, and this inauthentic speech often has other meanings in translation or simply does not exist, he is one of the most difficult authors to translate. Han Han, with his grotesque elements and tragic heroes, has created a new literature, that of critical surrealism, which certainly comes close to Miguel de Cervantes and Lu Xun.

当今中国最重要的作家之一是韩寒。很多人只知道他是赛车手、博主、歌手之类的身份。但这种 "多艺人 "的特点，也是他作为作家的一部分。我在《中国现代哈佛文学史》中用一章来介绍他。在哈佛大学和美国的AAS会议上，我把韩寒和鲁迅做了比较。两人都是意见领袖，也公开争论过，问题也很相似。然而，鲁迅的权威归功于他的学识和词藻，韩寒归功于他的名人名气。韩寒的作品由于词汇量大，经典语录多，而且他的叙事情节线索帽，由字面的成语、隐喻或寓言引发，这种不真实的言语在翻译中往往有其他含义或根本不存在，所以他是最难翻译的作家之一。韩寒以其怪诞的元素和悲剧性的英雄，创造了一种新的文学，那就是批判超现实主义的文学，这当然接近于米格尔-德-塞万提斯和鲁迅。

=6 跨文化身份=
段：作为汉学家和翻译家，您的跨文化身份让你置身于东西方文明之间。当您从欧洲文化和文学背景来到中国的文化和文学背景中，在两种迥异的语言之间进行转换，是否感到自己的思维方式和行文风格发生了些许改变？

[This question asks you whether living in China for almost eight years affects your translating ideologies? Is there any difference if you only learned Chinese but never lived in China for such a long time? ]

吴：在欧洲，很多孩子最多学习五种语言。我也是多国语言的人，在外语国家和文化中度过了很多时间。在我看来，语言和国界似乎不如那些以这些语言和文化为家，并且（通过互联网、全球化和旅行自由）在这些地区之间越来越独立地移动的人们重要。我们无法选择我们出生的地方，但我们可以选择我们想要生活的地方。迄今为止，我在美国生活了四年，在中国生活了八年。那我是不是就不如中国人的美国人了？当我生活在中国，发现自己在做中文白日梦的时候，我偶尔会忘记自己其实是德国人。文化让我们充实，让我们受教育，让我们变得文明，让我们发挥出最好的一面。

In Europe, many children learn up to five languages. I, too, am multilingual and have spent a lot of time in foreign-language countries and cultures. Language and country borders seem less important to me than the people who are at home in these languages and cultures and who (through the Internet, globalization, and freedom to travel) move more and more independently between these areas. We can't choose where we are born, but we can choose where we want to live. I have lived in the U.S. for four years and in China for eight years so far. Does that make me less American than Chinese? When I live in China and catch myself daydreaming in Chinese, I occasionally forget that I'm actually German. Culture fulfills us, educates us, makes us civilized, it brings out the best in us.

对文化和地域的认同，会产生家的感觉，对地方和同胞产生依恋。但被意识形态利用的不也是这个民族或文化吗？什么力量能够让一个人去打仗，结束别人的生命？是不是所有的意识形态一旦引诱人们去杀人，就会被证明是虚假的？作为世界之间的转换者，作为欧洲对中国的一种学术大使，反之亦然，这两个伟大文明之间任何基于意识形态的敌意在我看来都是寒酸的--只有民族之间的友谊，带着好奇和尊重相遇，才值得超越国界。连莎士比亚都认识到，爱情不仅可以消除敌对宗族之间的隔阂，还可以揭露敌意的谬误。

Identification with a culture and region creates feelings of home and attachment to places and compatriots. But isn't it also this nation or culture that has been exploited by ideologies? What power is capable of making a person go to war and end another person's life? Don't all ideologies, once they have seduced people into killing, turn out to be false? As a shifter between worlds, as a kind of academic ambassador of Europe in China and vice versa, any ideologically based hostility between these two great civilizations seems shabby to me - Only the friendship of peoples, meeting each other curiously and respectfully is worthy to overcome borders. Shakespeare already recognized that love can not only overcome the gulf between hostile clans, but also expose the error of enmity.

=7 中西合璧=
吴：有人认为中华文化走出去最好的译介模式是“中西合璧”，如葛浩文和林丽君的译作在国内外产生了较大影响。您对此有何看法？[I think this answer is rather insufficient. ]

吴：什么是理想的译者？韦努蒂认为译者应该是隐身的，看不见的。如果读者没有注意到所读文本是一个译本，那么译者就达到了完美的境界。

What is an ideal translator? Venuti believes that translators should be invisible and invisible. If the reader doesn't notice that the text he reads is a translation, then the translator has reached a perfect state.

我认为，翻译绝对要来自目标文化和语言。只有这样的译者才能向目标读者传达他自己想要传达的形象。源文化和语言的译者未必是目标文化和语言的主人。当然，真正的双语翻译，在两种文化和语言中成长得差不多，并且精通两种文化和语言的人，在这里是最好的。

I think that a translator must necessarily come from the target culture and language. Only this translator is able to convey to the target readership the image that he himself wants to convey. Translators from the source culture and language may not be masters of the target culture and language. Of course, a truly bilingual translator who has grown up in both cultures and languages about equally and has mastered them would be best here.

此外，如果译者从事另一种职业，即源文本作者的职业，如小说家或诗人，那就更好了。他还应该熟悉源文本的写作时间和环境。他不应该让文本比原作'更好'，但他应该能够接近原作。

Furthermore, it would be good if the translator practiced another profession, that of the source text author, e.g. novelist or poet. He should also be familiar with the time and environment in which the source text was written. He should not make the text 'better' than the original, but he should be able to approach the original.

译文总是一种新的创造，它在文字上不能再模仿原文，而在功能、效果等方面却可以再现原文的特点，所以葛浩文和林丽君这样的“中西合璧”的组合在翻译极具中国特色的作品时应该会比较合适。

Translation is always a new creation. It can no longer imitate the original text in words, but can reproduce the characteristics of the original text in terms of function and effect. Therefore, the combination of "Chinese and Western combination" such as Ge Haowen and Lin Lijun should be more appropriate when translating works with Chinese characteristics.

=8 中华文化外译传播=
段：根据您的实践经验和理性思考，中华文化外译传播有哪些成功因素?

吴：首先，对于普通读者而言，接受《红楼梦》第一步就必须有可读的译本，因此《红楼梦》在其它没有译本的国家的传播有赖于译者的工作。我认为等待引进不如主动输出。这样成功的例子不是没有。20世纪80年代，杨宪益倡议出版熊猫丛书，意在向国外译介中国当代、现代和古代的优秀作品，所出版的杂志和从书在国外有相当大的影响，几乎成为很长时期内国外研究中国汉学、对中国文学有兴趣的人了解中国文学的唯一的窗口。因此，中国相关机构可借鉴当时的经验，在还没有译本的欧洲国家作出尝试。

First of all, for ordinary readers, the first step to accept a Dream of Red Mansions is to have a readable translation, so the dissemination of a Dream of Red Mansions in other countries without a translation depends on the translator's work. I think it is better to take the initiative to export than to wait for import. There are not no such successful examples. In 1980s, Yang Xianyi initiated the publication of Panda Series, aiming at translating and introducing excellent works of contemporary, modern and ancient China to foreign countries. The published magazines and books have a considerable influence abroad, and have almost become the only window for people who study Chinese Sinology abroad and are interested in Chinese literature to understand Chinese literature for a long time. Therefore, relevant Chinese institutions can learn from the experience at that time and try in European countries that have not yet translated them.

其次，西方尤其是美国的《红楼梦》研究开始用现代理论解读《红楼梦》，如 “感觉”、“同性恋”等。因此在每隔几年举办一次的红学会议上，整理以前的研究，撰写一部西方学术界与小说接触史就显得十分重要。

Secondly, the study of "A Dream of Red Mansions" in the West, especially in the United States, began to interpret "A Dream of Red Mansions" with modern theories, such as "feeling" and "homosexuality". Therefore, it is very important to sort out the previous research and write a history of contact between western academic circles and novels at the Redology Conference held every few years.

我很早就开始关注《红楼梦》在西方的接受情况。其刚进入西方世界之时并不是一片叫好，直至被列为世界文学的一部分，这一过程持续了很多年。一方面是因为完整的译本直至XX年才出现，另一方面是因为许多西方汉学家和译者的民族中心主义世界观，他们认为只有本土的文学才称得上世界文学，而对别国文学视若无睹。在我看来，跨越时间空间，对优秀作品的认同还是同样的，因此《红楼梦》应该成为世界文化遗产。

I began to pay attention to the acceptance of A Dream of Red Mansions in the West very early. When it first entered the western world, it was not applauded until it was listed as a part of world literature, which lasted for many years. On the one hand, the complete translation did not appear until XX years; On the other hand, it is because many western sinologists and translators have an ethnocentric world outlook. They think that only local literature can be called world literature and turn a blind eye to other countries' literature. In my opinion, across time and space, the recognition of excellent works is the same, so A Dream of Red Mansions should become a world cultural heritage.

最后，中国文化作品的译介研究不能仅仅依靠本土研究者、译者，还需要目标语国家的同人鼎力相助。就《红楼梦》而言，对其翻译的研究不在少数，但遗憾的是，其中研究者多为中国学者，他们研究时没有与本土学者交流。但我认为，为了提升学术质量，中国学者的学术成果在发表前应由本土学者审查。无论如何，无论在中国还是在西方，一个新的领域就是小说的跨文化研究。

Finally, the translation and introduction of Chinese cultural works can not only rely on local researchers and translators, but also need the full help of colleagues in the target language countries. As far as A Dream of Red Mansions is concerned, there are not a few studies on its translation, but unfortunately, most of the researchers are Chinese scholars, and they did not communicate with local scholars during their research. However, I think that in order to improve the academic quality, the academic achievements of Chinese scholars should be reviewed by local scholars before publication. In any case, whether in China or in the West, a new field is the cross-cultural study of novels.

=9 提建议=
段：您自1990年代来华留学，在华生活多年。作为中西文化的“摆渡人”，您是如何坚持翻译中国经典著作的？您对中德文化交流的未来发展前景有何预见？[What is the future of China-Germany Exchange in your opinion? ]是否可以给年青一代的汉学家、翻译家提出一些建议？

吴：题中的“摆渡人”形象很好，“摆渡人”的形象历来是正面的，在欧洲也是俗称的“好听话”，这也是世界文学中的典型主题。在近5000年前（公元前2600年）的文学作品《吉尔伽美什史诗》就讲述了摆渡人乌尔-萨纳比带国王渡过死亡之水的故事。摆渡人是两个世界的纽带，起着至关重要的作用。其实，译者本身就是一个“摆渡人”，他/她将作者的思想境界、梦境、想象告诉读者，把读者带入目标语环境之中。

The image of "ferryman" in the question is very good. The image of "ferryman" has always been positive. It is also commonly known as "good obedience" in Europe, which is also a typical theme in world literature. Nearly 5,000 years ago (2600 BC), the literary work "Gilgamesh Epic" tells the story of ferryman Ur Sanabi who took the king through the water of death. The ferryman is the link between the two worlds and plays a vital role. In fact, the translator himself is a "ferryman". He/she tells the reader the author's ideological realm, dreams and imagination, and brings the reader into the target language environment.

学生时代时我就发现，中国学生都知道歌德、莎士比亚、海涅，而西方几乎没有人知道屈原、李白、苏东坡、曹雪芹，对此我感到非常震惊。尽管翻译工作在西方不被视为学术研究，没有受到高度重视，但我个人把中国文学作品，特别是名著和经典作品翻译成德文看作毕生的事业。我还在德国维藤建立了一个翻译工作坊，专门鼓励年轻一代的毕业生，为他们争取翻译项目，通常是将中国文学作品译成德语和英语，目前已经翻译出了。。。。。。。。

[What translations have been published/done in your translation workshop in Germany? ]
When I was a student, I found that Chinese students all knew Goethe, Shakespeare and Heine, while almost no one in the West knew Qu Yuan, Li Bai, Su Dongpo and Cao Xueqin. I was very shocked. Although translation is not regarded as an academic research in the West and is not highly valued, I personally regard the translation of Chinese literary works, especially famous works and classic works, into German as a lifelong career. I also set up a translation workshop in Witten, Germany, to encourage the younger generation of graduates and strive for translation projects for them. Usually, Chinese literary works are translated into German and English, which have already been translated. . . . . . . .

当然，从翻译的本质上来说，这是一项语言服务。没有这种服务，研究就无法实现。多了解中国文化，对德国文化没有坏处。而德国民众通常不懂中文，因此通过翻译获得资讯似乎是唯一方式。不过对于专业从事中国文学创作的人来说，当然建议掌握汉语能力，因为读原著永远比读译著更真实。

Of course, translation is essentially a language service. Without this service, research cannot be realized. Knowing more about Chinese culture will do no harm to German culture. German people usually don't understand Chinese, so getting information through translation seems to be the only way. However, for those who specialize in Chinese literary creation, it is of course recommended to master Chinese ability, because reading the original works is always more authentic than reading the translated works.

=10 译研结合=

段：作为世界汉学研究会会长，您组织了多场与汉学相关的国际会议，包括一年一度的世界汉学研究大会（WACS），持续向世界展示中华文化的魅力。您既是译者，又是研究者，您如何看待这两个身份之间的转换？您对从事译研结合的学者有何建议吗？

吴：在西方，学者的地位普遍高于译者。不过，就我而言，译者的工作还是很重要的，因为科学有赖于源头的发展（The work of the translator is nevertheless important, since science depends on the development of sources.）。最重要的是，如果没有翻译，大众就无法认识和了解外国语言与文化。因此，我既做翻译，也做学术研究，一方面是有时在翻译的过程中发现某个学术研究的选题或者已有选题再翻译中找到了一个突破点；另一方面，有时做学术研究需要阅读一些中国文学作品，但发现并没有德译本，所以干脆自己动手翻译。

In the West, the status of scholars is generally higher than that of translators. However, as far as I am concerned, the translator's work is still very important, because science depends on the development of the source. Most importantly, without translation, the public cannot know and understand foreign languages and cultures. Therefore, I do both translation and academic research; On the one hand, I sometimes find a breakthrough point in the process of translation when I find a topic of an academic research or in the re-translation of an existing topic; On the other hand, sometimes it is necessary to read some Chinese literary works for academic research, but it is found that there is no German translation, so I simply translate it myself.

翻译批评现在在中国是比较热门的学术研究方向，拿《红楼梦》为例。我个人认为，做相关翻译批评的学者首先自己也应该是作家，有自己的代表作，或者翻译过一定的作品。此外，做翻译批评时最好将对象锁定为译本语言是母语的作品。如果一个人对自己的源语言掌握得很好，就能够分辨出字里行间的引申义和细微的差别，更好地评估选词、文体等是否得当。但可惜的是，中国红学届或者翻译学届几乎没有人具备这样的条件。

Translation criticism is now a popular academic research direction in China. Take a Dream of Red Mansions as an example. Personally, I think that scholars who do relevant translation criticism should first be writers themselves, have their own representative works, or have translated certain works. In addition, when making translation criticism, it is best to target works whose translation language is the mother tongue. If a person has a good grasp of his source language, he can distinguish the extended meaning and subtle differences between the lines, and better evaluate whether the choice of words and styles are appropriate. However, unfortunately, few people in the Chinese Redology or Translation Studies have such conditions.

我每年邀请100多位同事到自己的领域讲课，主要是觉得人的一生都是可以学习的，通过更多的视角和会议间隙的讨论，可以向同事学习，拓宽自己的视野。

When I invite more than 100 colleagues to lecture on their field every year, it is mainly because I think that one can learn throughout one's life, that one can learn from colleagues and broaden one's horizons through more perspectives and the discussions on the sidelines of the conference.

另外，我还建议做翻译的同仁一定要去原语/目标语国家生活一段时间。截至目前，我在中国生活了八年，每隔一段时间，新的表达方式都会扑面而来，每天都在学习，自然对我研究和翻译都有帮助。

In addition, I also suggest that colleagues who do translation must live in the source/target language countries for a period of time. Up to now, I have lived in China for eight years. Every once in a while, new expressions come to me and I study every day. Naturally, it is helpful for my research and translation.

=11 国际汉学中心=

段：您是湖南师范大学“潇湘学者”特聘教授，并担任国际汉学中心主任。请问：该中心主要从事工作？您未来计划开展哪些项目推动中德文化交流？

吴：国际汉学研究中心是国内国学与海外汉学研究的桥梁。来自世界各地、不同背景的学者，可以依托这个平台进行交流合作。

我们从香港引进了来自美国的Margaret Chu，她在2021年初刚被聘为澳门科技大学副教授。她作为中心的兼职高级研究员，负责联系各国学者，评估和审阅中心的研究成果。朱女士还负责引进了许多同仁，包括来自牛津、加州和马萨诸塞州的同仁。

另外，四位来自德国的学者已经被聘为外国语学院教授，其中两名也将加盟国际汉学研究中心。来自卡尔斯鲁厄的哲学家Ole Döring和来自杜塞尔多夫的历史学家Cord Eberspächer，他曾在那里担任孔子学院院长。

中心的研究员正在共同构思编写《中国研究史》，包括有一卷总论和十卷单行本，该书预计将以英文、德文和中文同时出版。

除此以外，中心正在研究四大名著，特别是《红楼梦》在西方的参与史。

在现代文学中，我们看鲁迅，包括他与欧洲作家和改革教育家的相识。从国际汉学的角度看，钱钟书也很有意思，他的文章中充满了对西方文学的引用。

中心支持将中文书籍翻译成英语和德语。因此，翻译了许多小说、短篇小说和非小说类书籍。

The International Sinology Research Center is a bridge between domestic Sinology and overseas Sinology research. Scholars from all over the world and from different backgrounds can rely on this platform for exchanges and cooperation.

We introduced Margaret Chu from the United States from Hong Kong. She was just hired as an associate professor at Macau University of Science and Technology in early 2021. As a part-time senior researcher of the Center, she is responsible for contacting scholars from all over the world to evaluate and review the research results of the Center. Ms Zhu is also responsible for bringing in many colleagues, including colleagues from Oxford, California and Massachusetts.

In addition, four scholars from Germany have been hired as professors of the Foreign Languages Institute, and two of them will join the International Sinology Research Center. Ole D ö ring, a philosopher from Karlsruhe, and Cord Ebersp ä cher, a historian from D ü sseldorf, where he served as the dean of Confucius Institute.

Researchers at the Center are jointly conceiving the compilation of "History of Chinese Studies", including a general book and ten singles, which is expected to be published in English, German and Chinese at the same time.

In addition, the center is studying the participation history of Four Great Classical Novels, especially A Dream of Red Mansions in the West.

In the area of modern literature, we look at Lu Xun, including his acquaintance with European writers and reform educators. Qian Zhongshu is also interesting from the perspective of international Chinese studies; his texts are full of references to Western literature.

The Center supports the translation of Chinese books into English and German. Thus, numerous novels, short stories and non-fiction books have been translated.

=12. 《红楼梦》跟今天国内外的读者有什么关系？=
段：《红楼梦》跟今天国内外的读者有什么关系？

Woesler: The novel is an embodiment of “Zeitgeist”.

吴：小说作为 "时代精神 "的体现。

According to Georg Lukács’ Theory of the Novel, while the Epos (like Homer’s Ilias, which like the Dream reasons the stories in the divine realm) displayed a holistic world experience, a complete, self-contained culture, the novel displays, that the modern world has become infinitely large and has lost its homely quality.

根据格奥尔格-卢卡奇的小说理论，虽然Epos（像荷马的伊利亚斯，它像梦理由神界的故事）展示了一个整体的世界经验，一个完整的，自足的文化，小说展示，现代世界已经变得无限大，已经失去了它的家的品质。

The novel as a genre is no longer documenting just one culture, but represents, with the words of Walter Benjamin, the Organon of History. So the understanding of the novel changed with Lukacs to historical-philosophically. A novel is understood as typical for its historical era, the novel embodies the spirit of the epoch (Zeitgeist).

小说作为一种文体，不再只是记录一种文化，而是用瓦尔特-本雅明的话说，代表了历史的有机体。所以，对小说的理解随着卢卡奇的改变，变成了历史哲学的理解。小说被理解为其历史时代的典型，小说体现了时代精神（Zeitgeist）。

The Red Chamber Dreams are written in front of the background of the Manchu minority having taken over the power in formerly Han-shaped Ming-China (which was a multi-ethnic and crosscultural society) and families suffering the changing favor of changing emperors, with the Cao family being fostered by Kangxi and being persecuted by Yongzheng.

《红楼梦》写的是满族少数民族在原汉字形的明中国（这是一个多民族、跨文化的社会）掌握了政权，家庭遭受换代皇帝的宠爱，曹家被康熙扶植，被雍正迫害的背景前。

While the author in his time could not criticize the system and power of emperors, in the novel he came to terms with this life by seeking the guilt for the persecution in the growing decadence of the family (engaging in Daoism, leisure, poetry-writing, arts and music instead of learning for being able to earn a living) and in himself not fulfilling the expectations as the family heir. This description of decadence of a declining family reminds us of the novels of Tschechov (and e.g. in the Buddenbrooks by Mann, including the turn to arts and music).

虽然作者在他的时代无法批判帝制和皇权，但在小说中，他为家族的日益衰败（参加道教、娱乐、诗歌、艺术和音乐活动，而不是为了谋生而学习）和自己作为家族继承人没有实现家族期望感到自责，通过这样做，他也对这种生活做妥协。这种对没落家族颓废状况的描写，让我们想起了契诃夫的小说（如曼恩的《布登布鲁克》，包括对艺术和音乐的转向）

Moreover, with the detailed description of life on all social levels in early Qing Dynasty, the Dream appears as a documentary historical novel very much like Günter Grass’ The Tin Drum 1959.

此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的《铁皮鼓1959》非常相似，《铁皮鼓1959》是一部纪实历史小说。

=13. 曹雪芹和跨国文化=

段：从跨国文化的角度看曹雪芹你有合想法？

Woesler: Cao Xueqin and even more his protagonist Jia Baoyu both are early humanists, universalists and world citizens. The Red Chamber Dreams function worldwide. The Dream is a complex showroom of diverse aspects of Chinese cultures and is the embodiment and essence of Chinese cultures, but it has also a global impact, therefore it should be honoured as “World Documentary Heritage”.

吴：曹雪芹，尤其是他的主人公贾宝玉，都是早期的人文主义者，普世主义者和世界公民。《红楼梦》具有普世价值。《红楼梦》综合展示了中国的多元文化，是中国文化的集中体现和精华，同时在全球范围内产生影响，理应列入世界记忆遗产名录。

Cao Xueqin’s message is not simply the one of “Paradise Lost”, instead he himself made the best out of his life. Although being less wealthy than when his family still enjoyed the favour of the emperor, there was a payroll system and a social net intact in Early Qing China, where he received enough income to be independent from his rich relatives, to be selective on accepting jobs, to live a relaxed life in a small house in the nature, spending time with his family and friends, follow his own interests, like reading, writing and drinking wine, making kites for the children and thinking of the disadvantaged.

曹雪芹所传达的信息并不是简单的“失乐园”，相反，他把自己的生活过得很好。虽然比起他的家族享受皇帝的宠爱，他过得没有那么富裕，但清初中国有一套薪俸制度和一张完整的社会网，他获得了足够的收入，可以独立于富贵亲戚，可以有选择性地接受工作，可以在大自然的小房子里过着悠闲的生活，可以与家人和朋友共度时光，可以追随自己的兴趣，例如读书，写作和饮酒，可以为孩子们做风筝，可以为弱势群体着想。

Cao Xueqin was fully aware of his time and China’s cultural achievements, he was familiar with the different levels of society, he was a detailed observer and skilful narrator. He may have conceptualized the ending of the novel as a discussion about the different personalities of the characters in the novel and therefore displaying his reflection about life and his psychological understanding of the diversity of human nature. He was able to grasp the “spirit of time” (Zeitgeist) and with his autobiographical experience create an eternal coming-of-age novel not just for his family, for the Qing-Chinese, for Chinese people, but for mankind.

曹雪芹对自己所处的时代和中国的文化成就了如指掌，他熟悉社会的不同层面，他是一个细致的观察者和娴熟的叙述者。因此，他在小说中对人的不同个性的理解和对小说中人物性格的多样性进行了概念化的探讨。他能够把握“时代精神”，用他的自传体经历，不仅为他的家庭，为清朝的中国人，为中国人民，而且为人类，创作了一部永恒的成人小说。

This tradition of Coming-of-age novels is also a European one, like enlightenment philosopher Voltaire’s novel Candide or Optimism《老实人》shows at the very same time (1759) in Europe. Also Voltaire’s Candide has to leave the luxurious paradise of his childhood and strives for true love, but his main learning is more pessimistic, since Voltaire wrote the novel in opposition to Leibniz, who optimistically looked to China as “the best of all worlds”. Recent research findings show that China had a much larger influence on European enlightenment philosophers and we can be sure, that also Cao Xueqin was aware of some European literary traditions.

这种成熟的传统小说也是一个欧洲人,像启蒙运动哲学家伏尔泰在欧洲同时间出版的的小说《老实人》(1759年)。伏尔泰笔下的老实人不得不离开童年的奢华天堂，为追求真爱而奋斗，但他的主要学习内容却更为悲观，因为伏尔泰的小说与莱布尼茨截然相反，莱布尼茨乐观地认为中国是“所有世界中最好的”。最近的研究发现，中国对欧洲启蒙运动哲学家的影响要大得多，我们可以肯定，曹雪芹对欧洲的一些文学传统也有所了解。

=15. 结语=

段：我们非常感佩您对中华文化的热爱、对推动中德文化交流做出的突出贡献！再次感谢您接受我的访问！祝您多结学术硕果！

吴：谢谢你！的确，通过文化交往把人们团结起来，这是我们这个时代最重要的任务之一。许多国家都以自己的文化为荣。可是，没有任何一种文化逊色于其它文化，每种文化都有其独特的魅力，促进我们作为个人和整个人类的发展。我作为一个德国人，爱上了中国文化。如果其它国家的人也爱上了中国文化，中国人爱上了其它国家的文化，那么可以想见，整个人类文化必将绽放。这样，人们就能实现尊重和宽容。

Thank you! Indeed, uniting people through cultural exchanges is one of the most important tasks of our time. Many countries are proud of their own culture. However, no culture is inferior to other cultures, and each culture has its own unique charm, which promotes our development as individuals and as human beings as a whole. As a German, I fell in love with Chinese culture. If people from other countries also fall in love with Chinese culture and Chinese people fall in love with other countries' cultures, it is conceivable that the whole human culture will bloom. In this way, people can achieve respect and tolerance.

=SAMPLE=
'''美国汉学家白亚仁谈中国小说在英美的翻译与传播'''

□ 受访人：［美］白亚仁（Allan H. Barr)
采访人：杨平

访谈按语：白亚仁（Allan H. Barr），1954 年 4 月出生于加拿大，1977 年获得剑桥大学东方研究学士学位，1983 年获得牛津大学中国文学专业博士学位。现任美国波摩纳学院（Pomona College）亚洲语言文学系教授。早期主要从事中国古典文学尤其是明清小说的研究；目前主要从事中国当代文学的译介，翻译了余华的《在细雨中呼喊》《十个词汇里的中国》《黄昏里的男孩》《第七天》等作品，并编译了韩寒的
《这一代》。
2017 年 12 月 20 日，白亚仁教授应邀来浙江外国语学院进行学术讲座，期间笔者对他进行了访谈，就白教授与中国文化的因缘、对《聊斋志异》的研究、对余华作品的翻译，及中国文学的海外传播等话题进行了愉快的交流。
中图分类号：H059 doi:10.19326/j.cnki.2095-9257.2019.04.002

杨平（下文简称“ 杨”）：白教授您好！非常感谢您接受我的采访。您是著名的汉学家，也是中国文学研究和翻译的专家，尤其是在明清小说家蒲松龄及其《聊斋志异》的研究方面和中国当代文学的翻译方面卓有成就。首先我想问一下，您当初为什么选择学习中文，研究、翻译中国文学？

白亚仁（下文简称“ 白”）：我想家庭背景有一定的影响。我父母都研究外语，他们都在爱丁堡大学（University of Edinburgh）学习古典文学、希腊语和拉丁语。我父亲研究希伯来语，是《圣经》语言研究专家，也研究其他一些中东语言；我母亲后来在中学教拉丁语和希腊语。我姐姐在大学学习法语，我自己在中学学习法语、拉丁语和希腊语。我不想重复我父母和我姐姐走过的路，所以就选择了一个比较遥远的文化。我喜欢法语之类的现代语言，也喜欢古代的拉丁语和希腊语，中文刚好古代语和现代语兼而有之，从古文到现代汉语发展没有中断。如果学习中文，那就有机会同时接触古代汉语和现代汉语。我也可以选择日语，但是日本历史、日本文化没有那么吸引我，我觉得中国有更丰富、更悠久的文化传统。

我于 20 世纪 70 年代开始学习中文，当时是想更多地了解中国。那时还是“毛泽东时代”，中国好像是一个很神秘的国家。到了“文化大革命” 后期，中国开始恢复跟西方国家的交流，英国学生开始有机会到中国来留学或者进修，所以我觉得可能以后会有更好的学习环境。那时我没想到中国的变化会这么快、这么惊人，但就是预感中国会有变化。我高中就申请到剑桥大学去学中文，那时中国现当代文学没有很吸引我，引起我兴趣的是中国古代文学，尤其是明清小说，我们本科时阅读的冯梦龙“三言”的一些短篇，还有《红楼梦》和《儒林外史》的一些篇章都很有趣。我研究生时的研究方向也是明清文学，尤其是明清小说。

我对翻译的兴趣是最近 20 年才开始的。一方面，翻译作为学术活动、学术成果在美国大学并不那么受重视。刚参加工作时，我没想过要做翻译。晋升教授以后，我享有更多的自由，可以做一些自己想做的事情，这才开始从事翻译。另一方面，20 世纪 90 年代后期，中国当代文学出现了一些比较出色的作品，这也是我尝试翻译中国文学的原因。我之所以喜欢翻译，因为它跟研究不一样。研究古典文学比较辛苦，翻译当代文学就相对轻松，还可以直接与作者交流，研究蒲松龄就没有这种乐趣。翻译带给我快乐，使我得以更多了解当代中国文学的动向，丰富了我的学术生活和精神生活。杨：是什么原因使您决定研究明清文言小说，如《聊斋志异》的？

白：我在大学四年级快毕业的时候开始阅读《聊斋志异》，觉得趣味十足。当时读的是中文原著，比较吃力，但依靠一些注释也基本可以读懂。剑桥大学中文系很重视传统文化和古典文学，我们的中文口语可能不那么流畅，但是读古文还是有相当水平的。我喜欢研究别人不太研究的作家和作品。现在《聊斋志异》比较热门，但在 20世纪 70 年代末我作研究生时，从 1949 年到 1978 年，中国只出过两本有关《聊斋志异》的专著，重要的论文也只有十几篇。为什么文言小说在唐朝达到一个高峰，在蒲松龄生活的清朝又达到另一个高峰？这是我当时感兴趣的问题。同时，蒲松龄从 30 多岁开始写《聊斋志异》，一直写到快70 岁，在这个漫长的过程中，他的写作发生了怎样的变化？这也是我想研究的问题。此外，《聊斋志异》中有些故事并不纯粹是虚构的，而是来源于现实生活，而我恰好也喜欢从历史的角度去研究文学。基于这些考虑，《聊斋志异》深深地吸引了我。后来《聊斋志异》逐渐成为很多人关注的作品，我的兴趣反而淡薄了，最近 20 年基本没有发表与《聊斋志异》相关的论文，转而研究一些没什么人研究的文言小说及作家。

杨：您是否关注过《聊斋志异》的英译本？

白：我阅读原著的同时也读了翟理斯（HerbertGiles，1845—1935）的译本“Strange Tales from a Chinese Studio”(1)。翟理斯翻译了《聊斋志异》三分之一左右的故事，但他的本意是把译文分享给他的孩子，而《聊斋志异》本来是为成年人写的，并不是儿童读物。为了满足儿童的阅读需求，他做了相应的修改或删除。比如说，原著中一个书生和一个美女相遇，二人可能很快发生了性关系，但在翟理斯译本中他们就只是喝茶。在《红玉》等好几个故事里他都做了这样的改写。从其他方面来说他还是个优秀的译者，而且他使用了维多利亚时期的英语，跟我们现在使用的英语有所差别，很好地反映了《聊斋志异》使用的中文不是现代普通白话文的事实。
杨：您为什么从中国明清文学的研究转向中国当代文学的翻译？

白：研究古典文学很吃力，古文很难懂，资料也难找，而且在图书馆借阅图书也有各种麻烦，效率很低。相比之下，做翻译要轻松很多，一台电脑，几本词典，再加上一两个中国朋友就可以了。我自己投入翻译工作，一方面是想换换口味；另一方面，我在教学过程中接触到一些中国当代文学的译本，对别人的译文往往不太满意，总觉得自己能够译得更好。做翻译给了我放开的机会，可以暂时摆脱严谨的学术研究。翻译中国当代文学作品，好像去当下的中国街道上看风景、看人物；搞明清文学研究能去看什么呢？

杨：在现当代众多有名的作家中，您为何选择翻译余华的作品？

白：当初我看中了余华的《许三观卖血记》（Chronicle of a Blood Merchant），1996 年左右我读了原著，两天就读完了。这本书的可读性很强，一些细节让我很感动，有些情节让我想哭，有些情节又令我想笑，我觉得很精彩，好像中国当代小说很少能引起这么一种反应；而且书的篇幅不长，语言简单，翻译不那么费力，这正是我想要翻译的那种书。但是很快我发现已经有人在翻译这本书，(2) 自己再翻译就不是很好的选择，所以我就决定翻译余华的短篇小说集《黄昏里的男孩》（Boy in the Twilight）(1)。这本书我也喜欢，篇幅比《许三观卖血记》还短，翻译更加容易。当时西方有很多反映“文化大革命”和“毛泽东时代”的著作及回忆录，我认为这些书很有价值，但如果外国人只读这样的书，就难以了解中国 1978 年以后的变化，还以为中国街上都是红卫兵呢。《黄昏里的男孩》的故事都发生在改革开放初期，与中国政治保持了一定的距离，更多反映的是普通老百姓的家庭问题，比如说父母和孩子的代沟、婚姻中的危机等，我觉得这是西方人比较容易认同和理解的题材，有译介的价值。
记得第一次跟余华见面是 2001 年，我利用学术假去北京拜访他。他同意我翻译这本书，从此我们开始了长达十几年的合作。无论是我来中国还是他去美国，我们都会见面。翻译了这本书后两三年，我又翻译了他的第一部长篇小说《在细雨中呼喊》（Cries in the Drizzle）(2)，2007年，这本书在美国上市。后来余华写了《兄弟》（Brothers）(3)，因为一些原因我没有承担这本书的翻译，但余华去美国为《兄弟》英文版做宣传时，到我的学校做了讲座。因为这场讲座，他开始写《十个词汇里的中国》（China in Ten Words）(4)，我也与他进行了第三次合作。《兄弟》之后，他写的《第七天》（The Seventh Day）(5) 也是我翻译的。目前美国已经出版了我翻译的四部余华作品，明年还有一个中短篇小说集出版，书名是《四月三日事件》（The April Third Incident）。

杨：您觉得余华小说有什么特点？您在翻译余华小说时遇到过哪些困难和挑战？

白：我喜欢余华的写作风格，简洁、朴实。余华的小说比较容易翻译，因为语言平实，没有方言，用的是标准普通话，句子往往也比较简短，没有那么多中国特有的东西，很少有“这个外国文化没有，怎么翻译成英文”的困扰。但同时，简洁或简单也会造成翻译的困难，余华写得不一定很具体，如果不小心处理，平易近人有可能就会变成平淡无奇。比如说《活着》（To Live）(6) 中提到了“羊”，那是 sheep 还是 goat ？如果是sheep，会不会是 lamb ？是一岁的羊还是三岁的羊？书里没有清楚地交代。《活着》的译者可能没搞清楚这个羊是 sheep、goat 还是 lamb，译本里会看到一些不那么一致的提法。再比如我最近翻译的《四月三日事件》中，男主人公很关注一个叫白雪的女子，有一天，他注意到白雪穿着红衣服。“红衣服”不是很具体的说法，是什么红衣服？是裤子、衬衣、大衣还是外套？如果翻译成 red clothes，那不能让读者想到她长什么样，英语读者不太习惯这个说法。遇到这种情况，我会发邮件给余华：在你心目中，那是什么样的红衣服？还有《在细雨中呼喊》中，故事发生在一个叫南门的乡村，从南门村到县城有一条小路。“小路”也是比较难翻译的，是 small road 还是 little road ？是用泥土还是水泥铺的？他并没有说明，外国人难以想象那是什么样的小路。我问了余华，才知道是path，而不是 road。余华小说的很多句子没有清晰的语法结构，因为叙述者往往不是文学家，而是像《活着》中福贵那样的农民和《第七天》中杨飞那样的普通职员。他们用很通俗的语言讲故事，可能一句话就包含了三四件事情，几件事情只是简单地连接在一起。如果直接翻译成英文，英美读者就会觉得这个句子没有什么逻辑，而是简单的拼凑。我阅读我的译文初稿时，每每觉得还要做一些工作才能让故事更容易为英语读者接受，为此，我会稍微增加一些逻辑词，比如说加上 and、although 等连接词，以符合英语读者的接受习惯。
所以翻译余华作品一方面似乎很简单，一个段落、一页、一章没有太多困难，但另一方面，读自己译文时就会觉得还得下大力气进行完善。

杨：就您所知，余华作品在英美的接受和影响情况如何？

白：影响情况难以判断。影响表现为被别的作家模仿，他们发现一个同行写的东西很好，然后使用同样的写法。目前我还没发现哪位中国作家在西方有着这样的影响。但接受肯定是有的，一些重要的报纸、杂志会刊发书评。现在，余华、莫言、苏童和阎连科等作家在国外会有媒体关注，也有一定的读者，但他们的作品到现在为止都没有成为畅销书。据说唯一畅销的是科幻小说《三体》，比较严肃、传统的文学作品可能都还没有取得突破。
余华的书在国外卖得不错，其中卖得最好的应该是《活着》。很多人喜欢这本小说，故事本身很有趣，同时呈现了中国几十年的历史，仿佛一本简明的历史教科书。而且还有电影，有些人会先看电影，然后再看原著。虽然《活着》的故事发生在中国，但故事本身比较具有普世性，外国读者即便不了解中国历史，也会被这个故事感动。福贵热爱生命，在苦难面前保持乐观，我想很多人会认同这种人生态度。
《十个词汇里的中国》也受到广泛的好评，很多人给朋友推荐这本书。这本书可读性也很强，有很多有意思的小故事，谈到“毛泽东时代”、改革开放时代，时间跨度大，却又不像严肃文学那么难懂。虽然是作者的主观视角，但故事真实、生动。读者一般都会很喜欢这本书。

杨：莫言小说在西方的反响和接受也不尽如人意吗？

白：莫言获得诺贝尔奖后，读者肯定是增加了，但我感觉他也没有一本书能够引起特别关注，或者让人特别兴奋。莫言获奖后在西方引起了某种程度的“莫言热”，但我不知道有多少人真心喜欢他的作品。女性读者恐怕尤其不太容易接受莫言小说所描写的暴力和丑陋。每次诺贝尔文学奖评出后，有些读者可能觉得有责任去读一读获奖者的书，起码要读一本，但这并不意味着他们会读他全部的作品。

杨：余华或其他中国作家有没有可能获得诺贝尔文学奖？译者的作用是否重要？

白：莫言获得诺贝尔文学奖说明中国作家和中国文学的国际影响力提高了，其他中国作家能否获得诺贝尔文学奖很难预测。译者、编辑、出版社都是重要的因素，另外宣传和营销也起着关键的作用。莫言的成功在一定程度上要归功于他的英文译者葛浩文（Howard Goldblatt）。葛浩文翻译了四十多本中国小说，在美国、英国等以英文为母语的国家，他的贡献很大，没有他，很多中国小说根本无法进入英文读者的视野。

杨：中国作家的写作与西方读者的接受存在差异，翻译时译者如何去平衡？

白：中国作家希望他们的作品能够获得不同读者的喜爱和欣赏，尽量扩大作品的读者群，但凡是有兴趣阅读中国小说英译本的英文读者，一般都受过良好教育，文学品位较高，他们不一定需要作者把事情说得很直白，而更愿意自己去琢磨，希望有独立思考的余地。在西方编辑看来，作者不用那么直接地告诉读者，只需展示一下就行了，只要展示得比较传神，读者自然能够明白。译者还是要尊重原文，如果原著“告诉”比较多， “展示”比较少，也只能接受现实，而不能单方面改动原作。

杨：您对葛浩文译本中多处删改原文的翻译策略有何看法？

白：我曾把葛浩文的译文与原著进行对比，确实有一些不一样的地方，我不确定是不是因为他用的中文版本跟正式出版的版本有所差异。
葛浩文可能有自己的理论考量，他认为中国缺乏编辑文化。西方国家的编辑一般是很有权威的，他们可以告诉哪怕是很著名的作家：这个地方写得不好，需要修改，或者我有建议希望你能考虑。这样修订稿跟交给编辑的初稿可能有相当大的改动。而中国的编辑没有这么高的权威，比较有名的作家完全可以告诉编辑：一点也不能更改！鉴于这种情况，葛浩文会觉得译本还是需要一定的编辑工作，既然中国编辑不承担这个责任，那么这个责任就要由译者承担。比如，莫言一本书的中文版长达五百多页，翻译成英文可能有六百多页，那么出版社可能会告诉葛浩文，我们不会出版这么长的书，你要想办法把它缩短一点，那他就会删除几章或者删除部分内容。

杨：您自己的翻译中有没有遇到这方面的问题？

白：我对《十个词汇里的中国》的个别地方进行了改动，其他译本基本上没有。《十个词汇里的中国》的编辑通过我把她的想法传达给余华，请他做出相应的修改，但是不多。我自己不太做大幅度的修改，可能是没有那么自信，不觉得自己能够判断什么是成功或不成功的写作，所以一般还是尊重原文。

杨：请您谈谈对《红楼梦》几个译本的看法。

白：我最熟悉的就是霍克斯（David Hawkes，1923—2009）和闵福德（John Minford）的版本 (1)。我还知道乔利（Henry B. Joly，1857—1898）的版本(2) 及杨宪益的版本 (3)，但没怎么读。霍克斯版本在1973 年出版第一册，当时我非常喜欢，现在也喜欢。我在英国长大，霍克斯是英国汉学家，当时感觉他的译文很通顺，很容易接受。后来搬到美国，再翻阅他的译本，用来教学生，结果美国学生认为英国味道很浓，好像故事不是发生在 18 世纪的中国，而是发生在 18 世纪的英国。这是霍克斯译本的一个问题。当然这其实是英语本身的问题，要么是美国的口语，要么是英国的口语。美国的口语美国人很适应，英国人就不适应，反之亦然。另外《红楼梦》有同性恋的内容，霍克斯的翻译一般比较可靠地反映了故事的文化背景，但他翻译中国传统文化中同性恋的替代概念“龙阳之兴”(4) 时，没有忠实于中国文化传统。“龙阳之兴”在中文里没有贬义，“兴”就是 tendency 或者 interest，可是霍克斯把它翻译成 vice，就有明显的贬义。英国传统文化不接受同性恋，非常排斥，他采取了英国比较流行的态度翻译这个词，我想他对待同性恋的这种态度不适合《红楼梦》，因为清代还是比较接受同性恋的。这是他翻译中的一个美中不足之处吧。但是霍克斯的诗词翻译非常好，这些诗文翻译成英文后仍然是非常好的诗词。总体而言，霍克斯对《红楼梦》翻译的贡献是很大的。

杨：您在课堂上使用《红楼梦》哪个译本？学生们对它评价如何？白：我给学生讲课时用的是霍克斯译本，因为容易买到。我的学生总的来说不太喜欢《红楼梦》，他们记不住人名。霍克斯将人名对应为英文里的单词，读者可以较少面对那些外国名字，会觉得亲切一点，比如 Patience（平儿）、Aroma（袭人）等。另外，《红楼梦》很长，一般不能在一学期内讲完，最多只能学习第一册，还不到全书的四分之一，学生会为此感到沮丧：花了好几个星期读了那么多内容，结果还只是全书的一小部分。

杨：近五十年中国文学在英美的翻译与传播情况如何？

白：西方 20 世纪 60 年代以前比较流行一种看法，就是认为中国古代小说没有西方小说那么好。外国人不太容易欣赏中国的这些作品，因为西方翻译家认为中国小说有缺陷，没有必要把全部内容都翻译成英文，他们有理由、有权力删掉一些多余的诗词，或者删掉故事太长、情节无聊的内容。20 世纪 40 年代韦利（Arthur Waley， 1889—1966）把《西游记》的三分之一翻译成英文，书名是“Monkey”，(5) 他认为《西游记》有很多重复的内容，没有必要翻译全文。这在 20 世纪前半叶是一个比较普遍的态度。《红楼梦》也有一个缩写本，只有 300 页。一个转折点可能是霍克斯在 1973 年出版的《红楼梦》译本。霍克斯认为他有责任把《红楼梦》的所有内容翻译成英文，他的“企鹅古典系列”（Penguin Classics）版本是最流行的《红楼梦》英译本。自此，别的翻译家也大多采取了相同的态度，很认真地把中国古代小说完整地翻译成英文。芝加哥大学教授余国藩（Anthony C. Yu，1938— 2015）在 1977 年出版了《西游记》新译本的第一册，全书一共有四册，1983 年出齐。(6)《三国演义》的完整译本 (7) 于 1994 年出版，译者罗慕士（Moss Roberts）是纽约大学的教授。另外一个获得好评的译本是《金瓶梅》，译者芮效卫（David Tod Roy，1933—2016）也是芝加哥大学教授，他用了二十年来翻译这本书，第一册于 1993 年(1) 出版，一册有二十回，最后一册在 2013 年出版。《金瓶梅》译本的特点是芮效卫做了很多注释，《金瓶梅》英译本全五册的总页数是 2500 多页，注释多达 4400 多条。

最近 50 年来，把全部的原著呈现给读者好像是一个比较流行的现象，好像只有文言小说没有这么做，可能因为文言小说没有一个很整体的统一（unity）。现在的情况是，一方面，有些很完整且翻译得非常认真的译本，读者不一定很多，因为他们读完这些作品要花很长的时间；另外一方面，有一些新的选集针对普通的学生，普通的读者。总的来讲，无论是全译本还是节译本，这些翻译家都是用比较同情的态度去翻译的，不像一百年以前的译者，总是对中国古典小说进行批评和指责。

如英国的蓝诗玲（Julia Lovell）、韩斌（Nicky Harman），美国的译者更多。80 年代生活在中国的几位译者做的一些翻译，外文出版社推出的“熊猫丛书”在国外发行有问题，没做什么宣传，很难买到。现在一般是外国人把中文作品翻译成自己的母语，在国外的出版社出版，并且会做一定的宣传，因此提高了作品的知名度。

杨：现在翻译中国文学作品的译者有汉学家、外籍普通学者、外籍华人、中国本土学者等等，您认为最为理想的译者是谁？

白：汉学家一般是大学教授，但教授不一定是好译者。有些人不是教授，但中文英文都很好，也可以把中国作品翻译成英文。是不是汉学家是次要的，甚至有人认为教授不是最合适的翻译人选，因为他们可能读了太多的学术著作，比较严谨迂腐。较为口语化或生活化的书，博士学位可能无助于准确翻译。译者最好在中国生活过多年，有较好的语言、文化感觉，知道中国人讲的话是什么意思。我想外国译者把中文作品翻译成自己的母语时比较有优势，因为他们对自己的语言有丰富的感觉和直觉，对于什么是好的翻译、怎样翻译比较成功，心里比较有数。

杨：目前在中国文化对外传播中强调中国声音和中国话语，提倡保留原汁原味。您对“中国作品走出去倾向于异化”的翻译策略和方法有什么看法？

白：我自己的翻译理论很薄弱，只是一个翻译实践者。我没有什么深厚的理念功底，更多靠自己的直觉和感觉，针对具体问题选择归化或者异化，不会一概而论。
我注意到有些译者遇到“山寨”等中国特色词汇时，认为无法用外语表达，最好用拼音。我自己觉得这个办法不好。虽然“copycat”还不能完全代表“山寨”，但比较简洁，比用拼音好，至少传达了原文的一部分味道。比如中国人打招呼说“吃饭了吗”“你回来了”，这些直接翻译成英文就不妥当，我们不这么讲话。虽然它们反映了中国文化，中国人这么说不奇怪，但看译文会觉得奇怪，所以我觉得这种情况直译不一定是个很好的策略。

杨：您为什么翻译中国“80 后”作家韩寒的作品？

白：西蒙与舒斯特公司（Simon & Schuster）是美国的一家大型出版社，他们想出版韩寒的两本书，并找到了我。我本来没有很关注中国“80后”作家的作品，但认为通过翻译可以更多地了解他们。出版社首先想出版韩寒的一些博客文章，我读了后觉得他的写作风格比较有趣，与传统的文学作品不同，值得翻译。出版社给我提供了韩寒杂文的台湾版，书名叫《青春》，但我只选了书中的一部分作品，更多的文章直接选自他的博客。我们选的文集书名是《这一代》（This Generation）(2)。他的很多文章写得犀利风趣，但考虑到美国读者的兴趣，有些文章不适合选择进来。例如他谈中国当代诗歌的文章，虽然文章本身很好，但因为美国人不了解中国当代诗歌，所以就放弃了。美国人更有兴趣的是他那些关于政治、社会、文化的杂文。出版社也希望我翻译韩寒的长篇小说《1988：我想和世界谈谈》，但我并不太看好这部在中国炒得很热的小说，所以就没有翻译。

杨：您如何评价韩寒及其作品？

白：他是一位特别的作家，是一代中国青年的代表。他善于独立思考，不会在意主流媒体怎么说、一般百姓怎么想，不肯人云亦云。韩寒的存在也让美国人看到，中国不仅仅有官方的声音，还有个体自己的声音。
他文笔有趣，有讽刺，有比喻，很巧妙。他的幽默也很有特色，很多时候利用谐音调侃一些社会现象，翻译起来比较困难。我有时候想，如果找不到合适的对应的句子，我宁可舍弃，因为我不想在后边加个注解：这种做法在中文里是很好笑的。

杨：近年来您的翻译取向发生了改变，从小说转向随笔和杂文等非虚构作品，这是为什么？

白：这反映了美国相当一部分读者的兴趣。外国人阅读中国文学作品有一个重要动机，希望借此多了解中国，让他们通过小说接触一个虚拟的中国，还不如让他们接触一个离现实更近、非虚构的中国。曾经有人在《华盛顿邮报》上说：读完一部中国长篇小说之后，感觉与其用小说的形式去反映中国的一些不合理现象，不如干脆写非虚构作品。既然中国的某些现实已经让人眼花缭乱，何必要费尽心思去创造另一个虚拟世界呢？

杨：中国文学“走出去”需要克服哪些困难？中国当代文学在西方的前景如何？

白：中国文学的翻译、出版和海外接受都不够理想，需要克服的困难很多，主要问题有：翻译质量、创作倾向、文化差异、版权代理、推广力度、营销手段等等。
由于中国经济实力的强大，外国人普遍认为应该加强对中国的了解，西方媒体非常关注中国的动向，海外出版社比过去更积极地推销与中国有关的书籍。读几本当代作家的小说好像是一个比较便利的办法，所以我对中国当代文学在西方的前景还是持乐观态度的。

杨：您最近在做什么翻译或研究工作？近期有什么打算吗？

白：翻译只是我的一部分工作，作品暂时不多，翻译量不大，一般两三年才翻译一本书，我对自己的翻译量没有太高的期待。我现在正在翻译一个回忆录，是艾青儿子艾未未写的一部非虚构作品，讲述他父亲和他自己的故事。他是一位重要的艺术家，我对他的回忆录饶有兴味。
我还会继续研究明清文学，也许会写一两篇跟《聊斋志异》有关的论文，谈谈书里涉及的谣言和传闻的故事，这些在明清社会还是很流行的。

杨：谢谢！白教授耐心细致的解答！

白：谢谢！我很高兴接受采访！

2021 Interview with Duan Yuanyuan

2021-03-22T07:19:58Z

Bebery: /* 1 让·莫内讲席教授 */

'''访谈提纲 Interview with Martin Woesler by Duan Yuanyuan'''

(Please compare this with the http://bou.de/u/wiki/longer_interview_version_dated_March_3_2021.)

=1 让·莫内讲席教授=
段：吴教授您好，非常感谢您拨冗接受我的访谈！首先恭喜您获得“让·莫内讲席教授”荣誉称号，此地位是欧盟对从事欧洲一体化教学与研究学者的最高学术承认！您真可谓是一位欧盟的学术大使！据悉，该项目申请难度颇大，中国今年只有湖南师范大学、四川大学和中国政法大学三所大学获得资助。您可否借此次获奖的机缘，说明你眼中中欧的学术交流呢？

吴：不客气！我一直将自己看作中欧之间的“文化大使”，将这次获得“让·莫内讲席教授”称号看作自己在华学习、工作、生活近三十年的一个阶段性总结。欧盟委员会2020年在全球范围内授予了70个让·莫内教席，且每所大学最多可获一个名额。“让·莫内讲席教授”传统上主要关注欧盟相关研究。现在欧盟委员会把这个奖项授予在中国任教的德国汉学家，说明欧盟委员会已经认识欧盟与中国间合作的重要性。
You're welcome! I have always regarded myself as the "cultural ambassador" between China and Europe, and this time I won the title of "Professor Jean Monnet" as a phased summary of my study, work and life in China for nearly 30 years. In 2020, the European Commission awarded 70 Jean Monnet chairs worldwide, and each university can get up to one place. Traditionally, "Professor Jean Monnet" mainly focuses on EU-related research. Now the European Commission has awarded this award to German sinologists who teach in China, which shows that the European Commission has recognized the importance of cooperation between the EU and China.

中欧人文交流历史由来已久，欧盟成员国中，中法、中德、中英人文交流密切。中英两国政府于1979年签订文化合作协定；英国也是与我国开展教育合作交流较早的欧洲国家之一，是欧盟内最大的中国留学生目的地国，中国在英建立的孔子学院和孔子课堂，数量居欧洲之首；中法两国人文交流匠心独运，自2002年《中法政府间文化合作协定》签订以来，出现了互设文化中心，互办文化年的创举，涌现了“中法交流文化之春”等品牌活动；中德人文交流独树一帜，文学艺术领域引人瞩目，中德相互担任对方主办的国际书展的主宾国、分别举办了“中国8当代中国艺术展”与“德国8——德国艺术在中国”大型艺术展览，吸引大批中德人民前往观赏。
People-to-people exchanges between China and Europe have a long history. Among EU member States, people-to-people exchanges between China and France, China and Germany and China and Britain are close. The Chinese and British governments signed a cultural cooperation agreement in 1979; Britain is also one of the European countries that carried out educational cooperation and exchanges with China earlier. It is the largest destination country for Chinese students in the European Union. The number of Confucius Institutes and Confucius Classrooms established by China in Britain ranks first in Europe; The cultural exchanges between China and France are ingenious. Since the signing of the Sino-French Intergovernmental Cultural Cooperation Agreement in 2002, there have been pioneering work of setting up cultural centers and holding cultural years with each other, and brand activities such as "Sino-French Cultural Exchange Spring" have emerged; The cultural exchanges between China and Germany are unique, attracting attention in the field of literature and art. China and Germany are the guest countries of the international book fair sponsored by each other, and have held large-scale art exhibitions of "China 8 Contemporary Chinese Art Exhibition" and "Germany 8-German Art in China" respectively, attracting a large number of Chinese and German people to watch.

作为一名在中国学习、工作的欧洲人，我一直想对中欧国家交流往来做出贡献。申请“让·莫内讲席教授”项目就是其中一环。申请时，我就在材料中表明该项目的落脚点在于中国和欧洲的比较。通过该项目，我会推荐几名德国同事来中国短、长期从事研究工作，也会推荐中国同事去欧洲短期访学。并针对该项目，设置课程专题对比中欧近来的对外政策，以期激励中国塑造更加完整的海外形象。
As a European studying and working in China, I have always wanted to contribute to the exchanges between China and Europe. Applying for the "Jean Monnet Lecture Professor" project is one of them. When I applied, I indicated in the materials that the foothold of the project lies in the comparison between China and Europe. Through this project, I will recommend several German colleagues to China for short-term and long-term research work, and I will also recommend Chinese colleagues to Europe for short-term study visits. In view of this project, a course topic is set up to compare the recent foreign policies of China and Europe, in order to encourage China to shape a more complete overseas image.

Notes:

的确，我有把自己看作中欧之间的“文化大使”。我把这次获得“让·莫内讲席教授”称号看作在华工作、学习、生活近三十年的一个阶段性的总结。许多西方人认为了解中国文化是一个极大的挑战，对此我并不否认，但是个人挑战之余，我还从中看到改善社会的必要性、提高中西交流和中西相互理解的必要性。个人的学者都为这个大的目的服务。而且这一切都依赖于接触和交流。中国应该有更多的欧洲学者，中国也应该成为德国每一所大学亟需讨论的议题。

Woesler: Thank you too. You're welcome!
Worldwide, the EU Commission has awarded 70 Jean Monnet Chairs in 2020. Each university can receive a maximum of one such chair. The last Jean Monnet Chair went to China in 2016. The Chair signifies an award from Hunan Normal University, which has proven to be cosmopolitan and internationally networked.

Indeed, I regard myself as a "cultural ambassador" between China and Europe, and I regard winning the "Jean Monnet Chair" as an accumulation of nearly 30 years of working, studying and living in China. Many Westerners think that dealing with China is a great challenge, which I don't deny, but besides the individual challenge, I also see the necessity for improvement of the society, and of optimization of the relations between China and the West as well as the understanding of each other. Change can only be realized through contact and communication. There should be more European scholars in China and China should also become a topic to be discussed at every German university.

“让·莫内讲席教授”传统上关注的是欧盟相关研究。这次欧盟委员会把这个奖项授予一位在中国任教的德国汉学家，这就说明欧盟委员会已经认识到了对比自己和其他国家的政治/发展模式的重要性。

在研究和讲授中，该西席处理的是中国和欧洲的比较。主席的重要议题是不同的教育体系、社会各领域的专业化和数字化以及对隐私和数据保护的理解。

The Jean Monnet Chairs traditionally deal with EU studies. The fact that the EU Commission is now awarding it to a German Sinologist at a Chinese university shows that it has recognized the need to critically examine other models in comparison with the EU.

In research and teaching, the chair deals with a comparison of China and Europe. Important topics of the chair are the different education systems, professionalization and digitization in all areas of society and the understanding of privacy and data protection.

欧盟委员会正式将中国列为 "战略伙伴"，但同时也是 "系统性竞争者"。中国向欧洲靠拢，也是通过'新丝绸之路'倡议。现在，重要的是将欧盟在巴黎气候保护协定、与中国达成的投资保护协定语和即将签署的自由贸易协定中达成的共识推广到其他领域，比如在数据法、人权和法治的理解上进行合作。这张椅子可以成为帮助中国学生了解欧洲的接口，并在德国的利益相关者中提高中国能力。

The EU Commission has officially classified China as a ‘strategic partner’, but also as a ‘systemic competitor’. China is moving closer to Europe, also with its ‘New Silk Road’ initiative. Now it is important to extend the consensus that the EU has reached in the Paris climate protection agreement, with the investment protection agreement with China and with the imminent free trade agreement to other areas, for example by cooperating on the understanding of data law, human rights and the rule of law. The chair could be an interface to help Chinese students understand Europe and to increase China competence among stakeholders in Germany.

我不想把欧盟在中国表现作为中国的反面典型，而是用自我批判性的眼光看待。中国学生正是通过批判性思维树立价值观。我曾做过调查，结果显示，很多中国学生认为欧盟的政治一体化还没有成功，英国脱欧反映了欧盟的软弱，但我想传达的知识是，欧盟已经在运作了，只是方式不同而已，即追求的不是快速而精干的决策过程，而是等待、讨论、参与和妥协的过程。虽然欧盟还远未达到完美，但与中国相比简直是天壤之别。

I do not want to present the EU in China as a counter-model to China, but I want to present it self-critically. It is through critical thinking that Chinese students recognise values. I have done a survey, and the results show that many Chinese students think that the political integration of the EU has not been successful, and that Brexit reflects a weakness of the EU. However, the knowledge I want to convey is that the EU is already functioning, only in different ways than China: it is not a fast and lean decision-making process, but rather shows the virtues of patience, discussion, participation and compromising. Although it is far from perfect, it is simply different than China.

同时，英国脱欧正表明欧盟每个成员都有随时离开的自由，这被视为欧盟的特点。所以欧洲未必比中国差，只是不同而已。而当中国学生乐于接受差别的时候，他们的个性就会发展，成熟起来，适合国际就业市场。因此，我很鼓励学生去欧洲交换学习一、两个学期。

At the same time, Brexit shows that every EU member has the freedom to leave at any time, which is regarded as an achievement. Therefore, Europe is not necessarily worse than China, it is just different. When Chinese students are willing to accept differences, their personalities will develop and mature, become suitable for the international job market. Therefore, I encourage students to go to Europe for one or two exchange semesters.

在主持下，我把几位德国同事带到中国短期或长期停留，把中国同事带到欧洲。我可以在湖南师范大学新成立的 "国际中国研究中心 "介绍德国、欧洲和西方对中国的看法。这可能会激发中国更完整的自我形象，也可能会激发批判性的反思。

Through the chair position, I bring several German colleagues to China for short and long-term stays and Chinese colleagues to Europe. I can present German, European and Western perspectives on China at Hunan Normal Unviersity in the newly established “International Chinese Studies Centre”. This may stimulate a more complete self-image in China and also critical reflection.

鉴于湖南师范大学的让-莫奈教席，特设置课程课题，将中国和欧洲的近代外交政策进行比较，以鼓励中国塑造更完整的海外形象。

In view of the Jean Monnet Chair at Hunan Normal University, a course topic is set up to compare the recent foreign policies of China and Europe, in order to encourage China to shape a more complete overseas image.

=2《红楼梦》首次全译本=
段：您的代表作是《红楼梦》德语全译本，您是如何走上汉学之路的呢？可否谈谈与史华慈合译《红楼梦》的初衷？

How did you begin to learn Chinese and how to stick to the path of sinology for so many years? Why did you choose to translate 红楼梦？

吴：我第一次接触中国文化，是1987年北京老诗人绿原随诗人和文学家代表团访问我的家乡明斯特时，被他朗诵的诗歌所感动。那时候我还是个高中生。作为一个在保守、天主教、和平、到处有高素质人的明斯特地区长大的，吕原的沉重命运令我震惊。从他的诗中，以及通过与他个人的交谈，我了解到他的经历，一个著名的诗人在1955年被诬陷为23名 "胡风骨干分子 "之一，直到1980年才被平反。所以，既是中国诗歌的美，也是一个民族挣扎在文明现代性道路上的残酷对比吸引了我。

My first encounter with Chinese culture was, when I was moved by poetry, read by the old Beijing poet Lü Yuan 绿原, when he was visiting my hometown Münster with a delegation of poets and literary scholars in 1987. Back then I was still a high school kid. Being raised in the conservative, catholic and peaceful Münsterland with personalities of high qualities 素质, Lü Yuan's heavy fate shocked me. From his poem and through personal conversation with him I learned of his experience as a celebrated poet, who in 1955 was falsely accused of being one of the 23 "Hu Feng key members" 胡风骨幹分子 and only in 1980 was rebilitated 獲平反. So both, the beauty of Chinese poetry, as well as the contrast of the cruelty of a nation struggling to find its way into civilized modernity, has attracted me.

1989年我刚上大学的时候，德文版《红楼梦》也只有弗兰茨-库恩的节译本，共40章，只有原文体量的三分之一。与库恩的其他中国优秀小说译本在语言上几乎没有差别，带有浓厚的德国地方色彩。我也注意到了译文的不足之处。他把《红楼梦》书名中的“楼”翻译成“小房间”。这种译法也许比较适合欧洲读者的阅读口味，但就中国文化、中国历史、中国环境而言，我认为不太准确。这些不足之处也可解释为什么大卫-霍克斯和约翰-闵福德的译本在德国广受欢迎。

When I first went to college in 1989, the German version of a Dream of Red Mansions was only an excerpt by Franz Kuhn, with a total of 40 chapters, only one third of the original. There is almost no difference in language with Kuhn's other excellent Chinese novel translations, with strong German local color. I also noticed the shortcomings of the translation. He translated "Lou" in the title of A Dream of Red Mansions into "small room". This translation may be more suitable for European readers, but I don't think it is accurate in terms of Chinese culture, Chinese history and Chinese environment. These shortcomings can also explain why the translations of David Hawkes and John Minford are so popular in Germany.

《红楼梦》的意义大于个人，是一件永恒的艺术品，应该提升到“世界遗产”的地位。它应该以每一种民族语言提供。目前，欧洲只有半数国家出版《红楼梦》译本。

A Dream of Red Mansions is more meaningful than an individual. It is an eternal work of art and should be promoted to the status of "World Heritage". It should be available in every national language. At present, only half of European countries have translated a Dream of Red Mansions.

1990年我开始重新翻译《红楼梦》。也是通过这个项目，我申请到了北京大学德意志学术交流中心（Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst，简称DAAD）奖学金。当时的选拔委员会主席是沃尔夫冈·顾彬（Wolfgang Kubin，中文名顾彬），他后来成为我的博士生导师之一。
因此我也得以在北京大学留学了，考上了语言考试，入了中文系，读了几个学期的“先当代中国文学”的本科，一致到1992年。随后在北京，我多次参观了中国艺术研究院红楼梦研究所。参观之时中国红楼梦学会的主席张庆山送给我一本《红楼梦大词典》作为礼物。后来回到德国，我成为马汉茂教授的研究助理。在那里我了解到，已经有雷纳-施瓦茨的小说前80章的粗译本。从他那里我了解到，莱纳-史华慈（Rainer Schwarz）已经将小说前80章翻译出来，并将自己的译文交给他出版，马汉茂让我审阅了莱纳-史华兹的译本。不过译文暂未达到出版质量，还需修订，之前已经有好几家出版社都拒绝了发表。

In 1990 I began to retranslate "A Dream of Red Mansions". It was also through this project that I applied for a scholarship from Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst (DAAD) of Peking University. So I was able to study at Peking University for X months. At that time, the chairman of the selection committee was Wolfgang Kubin (Chinese name Gu Bin), who later became one of my doctoral supervisors. Later in Beijing, I visited the Dream of Red Mansions Research Institute many times. During the visit, the president of the Hongloumeng Studies Society Zhang Qingshan gave me a dictionary of a Dream of Red Mansions. Later, when I returned to Germany, I cooperated with Helmut Martin. I learned from him that Rainer Schwarz had translated the first 80 chapters of the novel and gave him his own translation for publication. Helmut Martin asked me to review Rainer Schwartz's translation. However, the translation has not yet reached the publishing quality and needed to be revised, several publishing houses had already refused to publish the translation.

但是，这次翻译尝试具有历史意义，我觉得修改和出版比完成自己的120章翻译更重要。于是我把我的译本搁置起来，对莱纳-施瓦茨先生的译本进行了几年的修改，然后按照前80章的风格重新修改了我120章译本的后40章（适应非标准音译，而不是按意思翻译人名等），尽量让读者有一个完整的阅读流程。

However, this translation attempt had historical significance and I felt that the revision and publication was more important than the completion of my own 120 chapter translation. So I put my translation on the back burner, revised Mr. Schwarz’s translation for several years, and then reworked the last 40 chapters of my 120-chapter translation according to the style of the first 80 chapters (adapting to non-standard phonetic transcription instead of translating names by meanings, etc.). The purpose of this is to attract more readers' attention as much as possible, and to avoid readers' feeling of "jumping" in writing style.

现在，暂时有一个仔细、完整的翻译，并有解释。之后的计划是在2022年内会出版第五版，该版本会根据很多专家意见和自己对原文的重新理解再进行改进。原来我把我的翻译按照前80回的翻译风格改变了（比如把我按意思翻译的人名按前80回靠近德语的发音改了）和按照敏福德的交际的翻译方法（比如贾宝玉跟他祖母说话的时候把“”翻译成“奶奶”）。在第二个版本的时候我已经编辑进去了所有的翻译同事推荐要改善的地方，当然每个地方我自己决定改变还是不改变，如果要改变要改成具体的哪些字。我觉得最重要是读者得到最理想的翻译，不要因为自己选过莫一种说法就要坚持不改变。我觉得素质高的人可以承认他们犯了错。当然，翻译有权利自己决定怎么翻译。有的时候把苹果要翻译成李子，比如目的文化没有苹果还是李子的角色就是原来的文化的苹果。这样，豪克斯也把《红楼梦》里面的红翻译成绿。但是我觉得有一个限制：如果翻译家选了一个在这个上下文特别少用的一个次要含义，但是有更合适的主要含义，那应该有愿意改。不要因为骄傲就坚持自己的不那么好的翻译法。歌德算一个天才。但是他的《流浪者的夜歌》他改了好几遍。这个说明歌德不是天才吗？我觉得他因为能承认自己可以做得更好才是天才。

比如在我未出版的120章全译本中，很多人名的翻译也考虑到了名字的中文含义。[What amendments will you make in the fifth edition of the Chamber? Could you please list some? ]

现在，暂时有了仔细、完整的译文和解释。也许在2021年内，可以出版第五版，会根据同仁们的意见和自己对原文的重新理解进行改进。

我把原文重新读了一遍，每句重新考虑怎么翻译。我这一次靠原文靠的近一点，比如把贾宝玉跟他祖母的称呼法按照原文翻译了。当然这个会给当代西方读者一种陌生感，但是会多给他提供一种原文的味儿。

比如我未出版的120章全译本中（有可能在将来也要单独的发表），很多人名的翻译也考虑到了人名的中文含义。

Now, for the time being, a careful, complete translation with explanations is available. Maybe within 2021, the fifth edition can be published, which will be improved according to colleagues' opinions and their own re-understanding of the original text. For example, in my unpublished full translation of 120 chapters, the translation of many names also takes into account the Chinese meaning of names. [What amendments will you make in the fifth edition of the Chamber? Could you please list some? ]

=3 欧洲红学=

段：您曾在国内红学权威刊物《红楼梦学刊》上发表过三篇文章，以德国人的视角叙述西方对《红楼梦》的了解，并介绍德译本情况以及西方学者的理解及评价。从这三篇文章可以看出，《红楼梦》在西方的传播已变换形式，由文本本身的传播向舞台剧等多模态形态发展。请问现今欧洲的红学研究、传播现状如何？您认为《红楼梦》对国内外读者有何影响？

You have published three articles in the Journal of Dreams of the Red Chamber, an authoritative journal of red studies in China, describing the Western understanding of Dreams of the Red Chamber from a German perspective, and introducing the German translation as well as the understanding and evaluation of Western scholars. From these three articles, we can see that the dissemination of Dream of the Red Chamber in the West has changed from the text itself to a multimodal form, such as a stage play. What is the current status of the study and dissemination of Redology in Europe?

吴：最重要的是，我想还没有译本的另一半欧洲国家也会有译本。再有就是西方尤其是美国对《红楼梦》的研究，用现代的理论来关注小说的一些重要方面，比如 "感情"、"同性恋"等。每隔几年就会有一次HLM会议。在这里，整理一下以前的研究，写一部西方学者参与小说的历史是很重要的。

Most importantly, I think that the other half of European countries that do not yet have a translation will also get one. Then there is HLM research in the West, especially in the U.S., which uses modern theories to focus on some important aspects of the novel, such as “feeling, homosexuality, etc”. Every few years there is an HLM conference. Here it would be important to compile previous research and write a history of scholarly engagement with the novel in the West.

《红楼梦》应该成为世界文化遗产。西方的读者也有自己与小说的关系。对主人公的认同尽管有文化和历史的距离，但还是能跨越空间和时间的距离。

The Dream of the Red Chamber should become a world cultural heritage. Readers in the West also have their own relationship to the novel. Identification with the hero works despite the cultural and historical distance, the distance can get across space and time.

我对小说在西方的接受情况进行了开创性的研究。在这样做的过程中，我证明了这部小说的传播速度非常快，包括在节选翻译中，但这并没有获得世界文学在西方的认可，直到76年后，它在中国出版，48年后，它的第一个节选翻译在欧洲。这一方面是因为完整的译本需要很长时间才能问世，另一方面是因为许多西方汉学家、文化中介和翻译家的民族中心主义世界观。

I conducted a pioneering study on the reception of the novel in the West. In doing so, I demonstrated that the novel spread very quickly, including in excerpt translations, but that did not gain recognition as world literature in the West until 76 years after its publication in China and 48 years after its first excerpt translations in Europe. This was partly because it took a long time for complete translations to become available, and partly because of the ethnocentric worldview of many Western sinologists, cultural mediators, and translators.

近来，对《红楼梦》的翻译也有研究，但遗憾的是往往是中国学者没有与西方学者交流。为了在这里达到更高的质量，中国同事的成果在发表前应该由他们必不可少的同事审阅。无论如何，无论在中国还是在西方，小说的跨文化研究都是一个新的领域。

Recently, translations of the novel have also been studied, but unfortunately often by Chinese scholars without exchange with Western scholars. In order to achieve higher quality here, Chinese colleagues should have their results reviewed by their essential colleagues before publication. In any case, a new field, both in China and in the West, is cross-cultural studies on the novel.

欧洲红学经常从自己的文化背景通过比较文学和跨国文化的角度来理解《红楼梦》。最近几百年，长片小说在中国和在欧洲都是“时代精神”的体现。《红楼梦》于1791年首次出版，其创作背景是中国少数民族之一的满族统治下的清朝，曹家或受康熙宠信或备受雍正冷落以致抄家没落。囿于时代背景，作者在当时无法公开批判帝制皇权，但在小说中，他在家庭日益衰败（从事道教、闲暇、诗歌创作、艺术和音乐，而不是为了能够谋生而学习）和自己没有实现作为家族继承人的期望中，寻求被迫害的根源。这种对名家望族没落之路的描写使我们想起了契诃夫的小说。此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的纪实性历史小说《铁皮鼓》(1959年)非常相似。最值得一提的是《红楼梦》和托马斯·曼的《布登勃洛克一家》（1901年）。两部小说都描写了出生富贵的年轻一代人的颓废、没落、溃散，以及一个家族的社会地位和经济状况的逐渐没落与覆灭。托马斯·曼的小说是以资产阶级社会的巨大变革为背景，而曹雪芹的作品则选取了某个朝代的更迭时期作为时代背景，在其中帝王利益与家族利益发生了冲突! 有趣的是，两部作品中的主要角色都挑选了英年早逝的类似人物。《红楼梦》里林黛玉为情而亡，秦可卿因跟她丈夫的父亲做爱自尽，贾元春和妙玉也是突然死亡。在《布登勃洛克一家》里克拉拉在婚后不久即死于脑结核，托马斯在牙科手术后去世，汉诺死于伤寒。两部作品都在结构和主题上运用了影射等大量的艺术手法，以丰富的故事进展描绘出一幅衰败的景象。因此，这种并行发展令人惊讶，很难说《布登勃洛克一家》的创作没受到《红楼梦》的影响。

European Redology often understands The Dream of the Red Chamber from its own cultural background through a comparative literary and transnational cultural perspective. During the last few hundred years, novels in China and Europe are the embodiment of "the spirit of the times". A Dream of Red Mansions was first published in 1791. Its creation background was the Qing Dynasty under the rule of Manchu, one of China's ethnic minorities. The Cao family was either favored by Kangxi or neglected by Yongzheng, resulting in the decline of property ownership. Constrained by the background of the times, the author could not publicly criticize the imperial power at that time, but in the novel, he sought the root of persecution in the declining family (engaged in Taoism, leisure, poetry creation, art and music, instead of studying in order to make a living) and his failure to realize his expectation of being the heir of the family. This decadent description of declining families reminds us of Chekhov's novels. In addition, the detailed description of the life of all social strata in the early Qing Dynasty in A Dream of Red Mansions is very similar to Gunter Grass's documentary historical novel Tin Drum (1959). The most noteworthy ones are A Dream of Red Mansions and Thomas Mann's Budenbrock Family (1901). Both novels describe the decadence, decline and collapse of the wealthy young generation, as well as the gradual decline and collapse of a family's social status and economic situation. Thomas Mann's novels are set against the background of great changes in bourgeois society, while Cao Xueqin's works choose the change period of a certain dynasty as the background of the times, in which the interests of emperors and families conflict! Interestingly, the main characters in the two works have chosen similar characters who died young. In a Dream of Red Mansions, Lin Daiyu died of love, Qin Keqing committed suicide due to sex with her husband's father, and Jia Yuanchun and Miaoyu also died suddenly. In the Budenbrock Family, Clara died of brain tuberculosis shortly after marriage, Thomas died after dental surgery, and Hanno died of typhoid fever. Both works use a lot of artistic techniques such as innuendo in structure and theme, and depict a declining scene with rich story progress. Therefore, this parallel development is surprising. It is hard to say that the creation of the Budenbrook Family was not influenced by a Dream of Red Mansions.

=4.现今欧洲汉学=
段：您曾在欧洲多所学校任教，请问现今欧洲汉学的研究状况如何？

You have taught in many European schools. What is the current research status of Sinology in Europe?

吴：有时我也会想一想

I think, to evaluate European Sinology, one should look at the history, at the conferences, ongoing research projects, publications, like "European Journal of Sinology", "European Journal of Chinese Studies" and institutions.

Sometimes I think about the question, if there is Sinology in Europe at all. At other times, I doubt if there is Sinology outside of Europe. At least we can see from genetic evidence, that there was early exchange of domesticated crops and animals as well as culture between China and the Middle East as well as between the Middle East and Europe. Later, the Roman Empire started diplomatic contacts with Han# Empire and soon after we have European merchants arriving in China. Although the main population in Europe stayed ethnocentric for a long time, and founded its knowledge on compendium like #, among those early merchants the first experts changed the view on the Chinese culture towards a more fact-based one, prepared the ground for missionaries, who described China in much more detail and paved the way for the first scholarly experts, who changed the perception towards a scientific one, based on observations, explorations, analysis and interpretation.

Scholarship on China in Europe started with single experts like merchants and missionaries, who often learned the language and travelled to China. It was institutionalized with the first language schools. Later, the first chairs for professors of Chinese Studies were established. Today, we have more than 200 Professors of Chinese Studies in the United States (most of them Professors of History or Language), a growing number of them are US citizens of Chinese heritage or even Chinese citizens. In Europe, France seems to be the country with the most high schools and colleges where Chinese is taught as a foreign language. However, the English and German speaking countries seems to be the regions with the most Chinese Studies professors, often specializing in Traditional Literature, Modern Literature, Philosophy, History, Politics or Economy. A major difference exists between modern and traditional Chinese Studies. Since "Chinese Studies" sounds exotic, it is often considered area studies or people have a double qualification as sociologists, anthropologists, linguists, scholars of letter etc. Therefore, it is difficult to count the number of professorships, but they may range up to 20 in the German-speaking countries and # in Great Britain.

When we evaluate European Sinology, we have to come to terms with the past. For a long time, starting with philosophers in the 18th century, China was idealized or demonized. However, even after Western scholarship claimed the monopoly to interpret China, it tried to explain the so-called "stagnation" of Chinese society with "Confucianism" or with genetical/nutritional reasons. Often it were the same sinologists, who then, after China proved them wrong with its economical boom, again found the reason for this development in "Confucianism".
Similarly, a lot of Western sinologists in the 1960s demonstrated in Western streets with Mao's "red bible" in their hands.
Both times, science and scholarship was mislead by a certain expectation or single-sided understanding of China. To project one's own expectation from someone else upon him is called "ethnocentrism". International Chinese Studies has to admit that it had committed mistakes in the past as a first step to actually write something substantial in the book of the exploration of China.
Of course, not just Western Chinese Studies is to be blamed to have committed mistakes. Chinese China Studies (guoxue) was and partly is also affected by these expectations and projections caused by chauvinism and cultural relativism. A first step for Chinese China Studies would be to learn more languages, like Japanese and English, in order to be able to see their own culture through the mirror of the foreign perception.

Main contributions of European Sinology in the past were: ...#

Main contributions today concentrate on the specializations of the chairs, like ...#

=5 为何从古典文学的翻译转向中国现当代文学的翻译？=

段：除了《红楼梦》这一代表译作之外，您还翻译了包括鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱锺书、韩少功、贾平凹等在内的一批著名作家的优秀作品。可否谈谈为什么选择不同时代作家的作品？您又是如何再现他们不同的写作风格？

This question intends to know about why you choose to translate works of those writers. Is it because of personal interests or the publisher asking you to do so?
I think the section of Xu Zechen serves as good interview answers. As Chinese readers, we are desperate to know what things are like from Westerners’ perspective.

为何从古典文学的翻译转向中国现当代文学的翻译？

Why did you shift from the translation of classical literature to the translation of modern and contemporary Chinese literature?

吴：不同时代的作品反映出不同的时代背景，这些作品对我个人而言是很好的窗口，可以窥探不同时期中国的社会面貌，还可与同期的欧洲文学进行比较。贾平凹作为20世纪80年代以来中国最伟大的作家之一，英译本很少。究其原因，首先在于他的作品植根于山西农村，带有浓重的地域风俗习惯。首先读懂原文对译者来说就是一项挑战，更不用提在译入语中找到对应的表达。我在翻译贾平凹的XX中就遇到了这个问题。。。。。。。。[Can you list some difficulties when translating Jia Pingwa’s or any other author’s works? We like the details.]

The works of different times reflect different backgrounds of the times. These works are a good window for me personally. I can spy on the social outlook of China in different periods and compare them with European literature in the same period. Jia Pingwa, as one of the greatest writers in China since 1980s, has few English versions. The reason lies in the fact that his works are rooted in Shanxi rural areas and have strong regional customs. It is a challenge for translators to understand the original text first, not to mention finding the corresponding expression in the target language. I encountered this problem in translating Jia Pingwa's XX. . . . . . . .

对于译者来说，翻译不同作者的作品时面对的翻译难点不同。而不同的译者有着不同的处理方式，这也能解释为何同一部作品有几个翻译版本，且翻译策略各有不同。我深知译者的文化背景对译本翻译策略的选择有很大影响，所以有些作品即便存在译本，我还是选择重新翻译。从鲁迅的短篇小说中，我们可以读出作者内心的矛盾：文学能改变世界吗？难道一定要身体力行才能改变世界吗？难道连唤醒那些像阿Q一样任由自己被牵着走，任人宰割的昏昏欲睡的同胞们也能做到吗？当无法改变自己和社会的命运时，唤醒他们还有什么用呢？作为译者，我们如何再现这种矛盾心理，如何处理鲁迅在翻译中有些古板的早期白话，如何与他对日常政治事件的论述。这些都是翻译中必不可免的问题。目前已有的鲁迅作品德译本在这些方面的处理方式多样。巴金在受到批评后修改了三部曲之一的《家》，删除了缠足现象。在翻译这部作品的过程中，译者必须决定是翻译原版还是删减后的版本。

For translators, translation difficulties are different when translating works of different authors. Different translators have different ways of dealing with it, which can explain why there are several translated versions of the same work and the translation strategies are different. I know that the translator's cultural background has a great influence on the choice of translation strategies, so I choose to retranslate some works even if there are translations. From Lu Xun's short stories, we can read the author's inner contradiction: Can literature change the world? Do you have to practice to change the world? Can we even wake up those sleepy compatriots who let themselves be led and slaughtered like Ah Q? What's the use of awakening them when they can't change their own destiny and that of society? As translators, how do we reproduce this ambivalence, how do we deal with Lu Xun's rigid early vernacular in translation, and how do we communicate with his exposition of daily political events? These are all inevitable problems in translation. At present, the existing German versions of Lu Xun's works deal with these aspects in various ways. After being criticized, Ba Jin revised Home, one of the trilogy, and deleted foot binding. In the process of translating this work, the translator must decide whether to translate the original version or the abridged version.

我个人很喜欢徐则臣的作品。在2009年（北上2015年才出版）[Is this book called <北上>？]的法兰克福书展上，他的故事《北上》受到广泛好评。事实上，他的生活经历与我有些重叠部分。我们都在北京大学学习过，只不过他比我早入学一点（多久）。当时校园里有一种亚文化，博士生们住在餐厅旁边的闲置房间里，因为他们对大学里的人、办事流程了如指掌，而且在独立的诗歌和艺术界也有联系，所以每逢有聚会，他们都很抢手，大家竞相邀请他们参加聚会。那时的大学涌现着一股乐观主义的精神，起初门外涌现出私营商业市场，后来校园里传出“开公司”的口号。那时，毕业生不愿毕业就被分入特定的工作岗位，身上的自由和责任感促使他们闯一闯这个世界。故事里拿着盗版产品的街边小贩和软件开发产品的学生先锋也是这幅画的一部分。徐则臣将这种气氛真实地捕捉到，令人信服。他笔下的人物在我们心上扎根，爱上他们，学会在生活中打拼。也是这种情感体验上的共鸣促使我翻译《北上》这部作品。

Personally, I like Xu Zechen's works very much. At the Frankfurt Book Fair in 2009 (published in 2015), his story "Going North" was widely praised. In fact, his life experience overlaps with mine. We all studied at Peking University, but he entered school a little earlier than me. At that time, there was a subculture on campus. Doctoral students lived in idle rooms next to restaurants. Because they knew the people and procedures in the university like the back of their hand, and they also had contacts in independent poetry and art circles, they were very popular whenever there was a party, and everyone invited them to attend the party. At that time, there was a spirit of optimism in universities. At first, private commercial markets emerged outside the doors. Later, the slogan of "starting a company" came out on campus. At that time, graduates were assigned to specific jobs without graduating, and their freedom and sense of responsibility prompted them to enter the world. Street vendors with pirated products and student pioneers with software development products in the story are also part of this painting. Xu Zechen captured this atmosphere truly and convincingly. His characters take root in our hearts, fall in love with them and learn to work hard in life. It is also this resonance in emotional experience that prompted me to translate the work "North".

Es gibt viel mehr Übersetzungen westlicher Literatur in China als chinesischer Literatur im Westen. Hier hat der Westen großen Nachholbedarf. Natürlich ist es auch im heutigen China wichtig, dass endlich Paul Celan komplett ins Chinesische übersetzt wird, wofür z.B. der Dichter Wang Jiaxin Großes leistet.

There are many more translations of Western literature in China than of Chinese literature in the West. Here, the West has a lot of catching up to do. Of course, it is also important in today’s China that Paul Celan is finally translated completely into Chinese, for which, for example, the poet Wang Jiaxin is doing great things.

中国翻译的西方文学作品比西方翻译的中国文学作品多得多。在这里，西方国家还有很多事情要做。当然，在今天的中国，保罗-塞兰终于被完全翻译成中文也是很重要的，为此，比如诗人王家新就做了很大的努力。

Chinawissenschaftler müssen auch als Übersetzer arbeiten. Viele Werke chinesischer Autoren der Moderne und auch Gegenwartsautoren sind im Westen noch zu wenig bekannt. Einer der größten chinesischen Autoren seit den 1980er Jahren, Jia Pingwa liegt kaum in englischer Übersetzung vor. Der Grund ist vor allem die Schwierigkeit, seine im ländlichen Shaanxi verhafteten Geschichten, die von regionalen Sitten und Gebräuchen gefärbt sind, adäquat in die westliche Sprache zu bringen.

Chinese scholars must also work as translators. Many works by Chinese authors of the modern era and also contemporary authors are still too little known in the West. One of the greatest Chinese authors since the 1980s, Jia Pingwa is hardly available in English translation. The reason is mainly the difficulty of adequately translating his stories, which are rooted in rural Shaanxi and colored by regional customs and traditions, into Western language.

中国学者也必须从事翻译工作。中国现代和当代作家的许多作品在西方还太少为人所知。作为20世纪80年代以来中国最伟大的作家之一，贾平凹几乎没有英译本。主要原因是，他的故事植根于陕西农村，带有地域风俗和传统色彩，很难充分翻译成西方语言。

Wenn aber chinesische Literatur ein ganz selbstverständlicher Teil der Weltliteratur werden soll, muss sie von ausländischen Muttersprachlern in deren Sprache übersetzt werden. Kein englischer oder amerikanischer Leser würde freiwillig die Yang/Yang-Übersetzung des Traums der Roten Kammer lesen, wenn er auch die Hawkes/Minford-Übersetzung lesen kann. Der Übersetzer fragt sich, ob er die Namen der Bedeutung nach übersetzen soll, ob man den Traum der Roten Kammer aus Sicht des Klassenkampfes übersetzen und den Sklavencharakter der Dienstboten im Hause Jia betonen soll, auch wenn diese wieder Dienstboten hatten und die Idee des Klassenkampfes erst sehr viel später geboren wurde?

But if Chinese literature is to become a natural part of world literature, it must be translated by foreign native speakers into their language. No English or American reader would voluntarily read the Yang/Yang translation of The Dream of the Red Chamber if he could also read the Hawkes/Minford translation. The translator wonders whether to translate the names according to meaning, whether to translate the Dream of the Red Chamber from the point of view of class struggle and emphasize the slave character of the servants in the House of Jia, even though they again had servants and the idea of class struggle was born much later?

但是，中国文学要想成为世界文学的自然组成部分，就必须由外国母语者将其翻译成他们的语言。如果英美读者也能读到霍克斯/明福的译本，没有一个英美读者会主动去读杨/杨的《红楼梦》。译者在想，要不要按意思翻译名字，要不要从阶级斗争的角度来翻译《红楼梦》，要不要强调贾府中仆人的奴性，尽管他们又有仆人，阶级斗争的思想产生得更晚？

Jeder Autor muss anders übersetzt werden. Aus Lu Xuns Kurzgeschichten lässt sich seine Zerrissenheit lesen: Kann Literatur Welt verändern? Muss man körperlich aktiv werden, um die Welt zu ändern? Kann man die stumpfe Masse lethargischer Landsleute, die sich wie Ah Q zur Schlachtbank führen lassen, überhaupt aufrütteln? Nützt es etwas, sie aufzurütteln, wenn sie doch nichts an ihrem Schicksal und dem der Gesellschaft ändern können? Lu Xuns ergreifende Bilder wie das des Eisenhauses oder des Wasserbüffels wirken auch im Westen. Wie gehen wir als Übersetzer mit dem etwas antiquiert wirkenden frühen Baihua bei Lu Xun in der Übersetzung um? Wie mit seinen Polemiken über tagespolitische Ereignisse, die heute oft vergessen sind? Das sind wichtige Fragen. Die bisher vorliegenden Übersetzungen von Lu Xun im Deutschen sind heterogen.

Each author must be translated differently. From Lu Xun’s short stories, one can read his brokenness: Can literature change world? Do you have to become physically active to change the world? Is it even possible to rouse the dull mass of lethargic compatriots who allow themselves to be led to the slaughter like Ah Q? Is there any use in rousing them, when they can do nothing to change their fate and that of society? Lu Xun’s poignant images like that of the iron house or the water buffalo also have an effect in the West. As translators, how do we deal with Lu Xun’s somewhat antiquated early baihua in translation? How with his polemics about daily political events, which are often forgotten today? These are important questions. The translations of Lu Xun in German available so far are heterogeneous.

每个作者的翻译必须不同。从鲁迅的短篇小说中，可以读出他内心的矛盾。文学能改变世界吗？难道一定要身体力行才能改变世界吗？难道连唤醒那些像阿Q一样任由自己被牵着走，任人宰割的昏昏欲睡的同胞们也能做到吗？当他们无法改变自己和社会的命运时，唤醒他们还有什么用呢？鲁迅笔下的铁屋子、水牛等凄美的形象，在西方也有影响。作为译者，我们如何处理鲁迅在翻译中有些古板的早期白话？如何与他对日常政治事件的论述，今天常常被人遗忘？这些都是重要的问题。目前已有的鲁迅的德文译本异彩纷呈。

Wang Meng wurde früh mit seinem Revolutions-begeisterten schwärmerischen Jugendroman "Lang lebe die Jugend!" berühmt, in dem sich revolutionärer Enthusiasmus und Jugendliebe vermischten. Nach der Kulturrevolution und langer Zeit in Xinjiang wurde Wang Meng mit seinen Geschichten "Der Neuling in der Organisationsabteilung", "Augen der Nacht" (im Bewusstseinsstrom) und "Zäher Brei" als experimentierfreudiger und kritischer Autor bekannt. Ich habe Bücher über seine Essays am Ende meines Bachelor- und Masterstudiums geschrieben und jüngst einen Band seiner Lebenserinnerungen ins Deutsche und mit einer US-Amerikanerin zusammen ins Englische übersetzt: 《中國天機》王蒙著Wang Meng: China – enträtselt, 波鸿：欧洲大学出版社 Bochum: European University Press 2017, ISBN 978-3-86515-888-8 (E-Book ISBN 978-3-86515-889-5) [英文版]《中國天機》王蒙著Wang Meng: “China – deciphered”, 奥勒姆：美国学术出版社 Academic Press of the USA Orem 2017, 978-1-68202-888-9 (E-Book -889-6, co-translated with Licia Kim)

Wang Meng rose to fame early with his revolution-inspired rapturous youth novel "Long Live Youth!", which mixed revolutionary enthusiasm and youthful love. After the Cultural Revolution and a long time in Xinjiang, Wang Meng became known as an experimental and critical writer with his stories "The Newcomer in the Organization Department", "Eyes of Night" (in Stream of Consciousness) and "Tough Porridge". I wrote books of his essays at the end of my bachelor's and master's studies and recently translated a volume of his memoirs into German and into English together with a US-American woman: 《中國天機》王蒙著Wang Meng: China - Enträtselt, 波鸿：欧洲大学出版社 Bochum: European University Press 2017, ISBN 978-3-86515-888-8 (e-book ISBN 978-3-86515-889-5) [英文版]《中國天機》王蒙著Wang Meng: "China - deciphered," 奥勒姆：美国学术出版社 Academic Press of the USA Orem 2017, 978-1-68202-888-9 (e-book -889-6, co-translated with Licia Kim)

王蒙成名很早，他的革命题材狂欢青春小说《青春万岁！》，将革命热情和青春爱情融为一体。文革后，长期在新疆，王蒙以《组织部的新人》、《夜的眼睛》（载于《意识流》）、《熬粥》等小说而闻名于世，是一位实验性、批判性作家。我在学士和硕士毕业时写过他的散文集，最近又把他的一卷回忆录译成德文，并和一位美籍女子一起译成英文。《中国天机》王蒙著王蒙：《中国-揭秘》，波鸿：欧洲大学出版社2017年，ISBN 978-3-86515-888-8（电子书ISBN 978-3-86515-889-5）英文版]《中国天机》王蒙著王蒙：《中国-解密》，奥勒姆：美国学术出版社2017年版，978-1-68202-888-9（电子书-889-6，与Licia Kim合译）。

Von Zhu Ziqing habe ich "Die Rückenansicht" übersetzt, eine beeindruckende Hommage an seinen Vater in Form eines erzählerischen Essays.

By Zhu Ziqing, I translated "The Back View," an impressive tribute to his father in the form of a narrative essay.

作者：朱自清我翻译了《背影》，以记叙文的形式向父亲致敬，令人惊叹。

Ziemlich bekannt ist Zhus Essay "綠" (Grün), in dem er die Schönheit des Meiyu-Teichs (梅雨潭) und des Wasserfalls in den Mittleren Yandang-Bergen in Wenzhou beschreibt, die er 1923 besuchte.

Quite well known is Zhu's essay "綠" (Green), in which he described the beauty of Meiyu Pond (梅雨潭) and waterfall in the Middle Yandang Mountains in Wenzhou, which he visited in 1923.

颇为著名的是朱自清的《绿》一文。其中描述了他1923年到温州雁荡山中段梅雨潭和瀑布的美景。

Bing Xin ist eine bekannte Kinderbuchautorin, die nach der Kulturrevolution ihre Reihe „Briefe an die Kinder“ nahtlos fortsetzte, als wäre nichts geschehen.

Bing Xin is a well-known children's author who seamlessly continued her series of "Letters to Children " after the Cultural Revolution as if nothing had happened.

冰心是著名的儿童文学作家，她在 "文革 "后无缝衔接地继续她的 "给孩子的信 "系列，仿佛什么都没有发生过。

Ba Jin hat unvergleichliche Literatur hinterlassen, seine Trilogie „Die Familie“ hat er nach Kritik überarbeitet und zum Beispiel das Phänomen des Füßebindens gestrichen. Hier muss der Übersetzer entscheiden, ob er die Ursprungs-Fassung oder die überarbeitete übersetzen möchte.

Ba Jin left behind incomparable literature; he revised his trilogy "The Family" after criticism and, for example, deleted the phenomenon of foot-binding. Here, the translator must decide whether to translate the original version or the revised one.

巴金留下了不可多得的文学作品，他在批评后修改了三部曲《家》，比如删除了缠足现象。在这里，译者必须决定是翻译原版还是修订版。

Qian Zhongshu ist der weltläufigste chinesische Schriftsteller seiner Zeit, seine anspruchsvollen Texte zu übersetzen bereitet Freude, da er sich in europäischer Literatur gut auskennt und Motive aus zahlreichen westlichen Werken zitiert oder auf diese anspielt. Sowohl sein Roman "Umzingelte Festung" (Weicheng, 1947), der das Leben eines Universitäts-Dozenten-Ehepaares thematisiert, ist unvergessen, als auch seine vier meisterhaften Kurzgeschichten "Human, Beast, Ghost" (1946). Seine anspruchsvollen Essays aus den Sammlungen "Written in the Margins of Life" (1941), Guanzhui bian (1979-80) und Patchwork: Seven Essays on Art and Literature zeigen, wie Qian Zhongshu meisterhaft die verschiedenen Erscheinungsformen des Teufels durch die Weltliteratur folgt als auch philosophisch über die Funktion von Fenstern und Türen räsoniert.

Qian Zhongshu is the most worldly Chinese writer of his time; translating his sophisticated texts is a pleasure, as he is well versed in European literature and quotes or alludes to motifs from numerous Western works. Both his novel "Encircled Fortress" (Weicheng, 1947), which focuses on the life of a university lecturer couple, and his four masterful short stories "Human, Beast, Ghost" (1946) are unforgotten. His sophisticated essays from the collections Written in the Margins of Life (1941), Guanzhui bian (1979-80), and Patchwork: Seven Essays on Art and Literature show how Qian Zhongshu masterfully follows the various manifestations of the devil through world literature as well as philosophically ruminates on the function of windows and doors.

钱钟书是中国当代最具世界性的作家，翻译他的复杂文字是一种享受，因为他精通欧洲文学，并引用或暗示了众多西方作品的主题。无论是他以大学讲师夫妇生活为题材的小说《包围堡垒》（潍城，1947年），还是他的四部杰作短篇小说《人、兽、鬼》（1946年），都让人难以忘怀。他从《写在生活的边缘》（1941年）、《观水扁》（1979-80年）、《拼凑：七篇艺术与文学论文》等文集中的精致文章，展示了钱钟书如何娴熟地通过世界文学追寻魔鬼的各种表现形式，以及对门窗功能的哲学思考。

Han Shaogong, bekannt durch seine Führung der literarischen Bewegung "Root-seeking literature" (xungen) beschreibt in seinen zahlreichen Erzählungen mit seiner präzisen, geduldsamen und unabhängigen Stimme die Einzigartigkeit von Hunans ländlicher Kultur. Ich habe mit großer Freude zwei seiner Erzählungen übersetzt: 《怒目金刚》韩少功著, Han Shaogong. Der zornige Blick von Buddhas Wächter. 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-216-9 《空院残月》韩少功著, Han Shaogong. Der verblassende Mond über dem verlassenen Innenhof, 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press 2018, ISBN 9783865152176

Han Shaogong, known for his leadership of the Root-seeking literature (xungen) literary movement, describes the uniqueness of Hunan's rural culture in his many narratives with his precise, patient, and independent voice. I have translated two of his narratives with great pleasure: 《怒目金刚》韩少功著, Han Shaogong. The angry look of Buddha's guardian. 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-216-9. 《空院残月》韩少功著, Han Shaogong. The fading moon over the deserted courtyard, 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press 2018, ISBN 9783865152176.

以领导寻根文学(xungen)文学运动而闻名于世的韩少功，在他的大量叙述中，以其准确、耐心、独立的声音，描述了湖南乡村文化的独特性。我非常高兴地翻译了他的两篇叙事。《怒目金刚》韩少功著，韩少功。佛陀护法愤怒的样子。德国波鸿：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-216-9（销售量：1000）。《空院残月》韩少功著，韩少功。荒芜庭院上的凋零的月亮》，德国波鸿：欧洲大学出版社Bochum：欧洲大学出版社2018年，ISBN 9783865152176（销售量：1000）。

Yu Qiuyu ist ein großartiger chinesischer Drama- und Kunsthistoriker und Schriftsteller, der einen guten Überblick über die moderne chinesische Kunstgeschichte hat und diese in verständlichen Worten zu vermitteln weiß. Seine Stimme hatte nicht nur in der chinesischen Kulturbürokratie und in Taiwan Gehör, er scheute auch die Auseinandersetzung nicht, die seine Berichte an das Kulturministerium und seine Inspektionsreisen produzierten. Vor den Vereinten Nationen setzte er sich gegen die polarisierende Pamphlet Samuel P. Huntington's vom "Clash of Civilizations" ein und wurde Dekan an der Fakultät für Geisteswissenschaften der Macao University of Science and Technology. Ich habe von ihm zwei Bücher übersetzt: 《昆曲纵论》余秋雨著, Yu Qiuyu. Über die Kun-Oper 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-215-2 《书法史述》余秋雨著Yu, Qiuyu: Geschichte der Kalligraphie in Erzählform / Yu Qiuyu ; 波鸿：欧洲大学出版社 Bochum: Europ. Univ.-vlg. 2017, Reihe Sinica 44, ISBN 978-3-86515-218-3

Yu Qiuyu is a great Chinese drama and art historian and writer who has a good overview of modern Chinese art history and knows how to convey it in understandable terms. His voice was not only heard in the Chinese cultural bureaucracy and in Taiwan, he also did not shy away from the controversy that his reports to the Ministry of Culture and his inspection tours produced. At the United Nations, he lobbied against Samuel P. Huntington's polarizing pamphlet of the "Clash of Civilizations" and became dean at the Faculty of Humanities at Macao University of Science and Technology. I have translated two books by him: 《昆曲纵论》余秋雨著, Yu Qiuyu. On Kun Opera 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-215-《书法史述》余秋雨著Yu, Qiuyu: History of calligraphy in narrative form / Yu Qiuyu ; 波鸿：欧洲大学出版社 Bochum: Europ. Univ.-vlg. 2017, Sinica 44 series, ISBN 978-3-86515-218-3.

余秋雨是一位伟大的中国戏剧艺术史家和作家，他对中国现代艺术史有很好的概括，知道如何用通俗易懂的语言来传达。他的声音不仅在中国文化官僚机构和台湾有了听众，他也不避讳他向文化部的报告和考察所产生的争议。在联合国，他游说反对塞缪尔-P-亨廷顿的 "文明冲突 "的极端化小册子，并担任澳门科技大学人文学院院长。我曾翻译过他的两本书。《昆曲纵论》余秋雨著，余秋雨。On Kun Opera 德国波鸿：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-215-2. 书法史述》余秋雨著/余秋雨 ; 波鸿：欧洲大学出版社波鸿：Europ. Univ.-vlg. 2017, Sinica 44 series, ISBN 978-3-86515-218-3.

Xu Zechen liegt mir persönlich sehr am Herzen. Auf der Frankfurter Buchmesse 2009# kam seine Erzählung „Im Laufschritt durch Peking“ gut an. Ich habe einen persönlichen Bezug zu seinen Geschichten, da er kurz vor mir an der Peking-Universität studiert hat. Damals gab es auf dem Campus eine Art Subkultur, Doktoranden, die in ungenutzten Räumen neben den Restaurants wohnten und begehrte Partyteilnehmer waren, da sie die Universität incl. Personen, Abläufe und Gepflogenheiten wie ihre Westentasche kannten und Kontakte in die freie Dichter- und Künstlerszene hatten. Es herrschte eine Aufbruchstimmung an der Universität, zunächst entstanden vor den Toren privatwirtschaftliche Märkte, später hörte man das Motto „eine Firma eröffnen“ (kai gongsi) auf dem Campus. Damals begann es, dass die Absolventen nicht mehr nur auf einen Beruf zugeteilt wurden, sondern sich selbst darum kümmerten und sowohl Freiheit wie Verantwortung spürten. Auch Straßenhändler mit Raubkopien und studentische Pioniere der Software-Entwicklung gehörten zu diesem Bild. Xu Zechen erfasst diese Atmosphäre authentisch und fesselnd. Wir fiebern mit seinen Charakteren mit, verlieben uns mit ihnen und lernen, uns durchs Leben zu schlagen. Von ihm habe ich folgendes Buch übersetzt:《啊北京》徐则臣著 Xu Zechen: Ach, Peking!, 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社 Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-220-7

Xu Zechen is very close to my heart personally. At the 2009# Frankfurt Book Fair, his story "Running through Beijing" was well received. I have a personal connection to his stories because he studied at Peking University shortly before me. At that time there was a kind of subculture on campus, doctoral students who lived in unused rooms next to the restaurants and were sought-after party participants, since they knew the university incl. people, procedures and customs like the back of their hand and had contacts in the independent poetry and art scene. There was a spirit of optimism at the university; at first, private markets sprang up outside the gates, and later the slogan "open a company" (kai gongsi) was heard on campus. It was then that graduates began to feel both freedom and responsibility, rather than being assigned to a job. Street vendors with pirated products and student pioneers of software development were also part of this picture. Xu Zechen captures this atmosphere authentically and compellingly. We root for his characters, fall in love with them, and learn to make our way through life. From him, I have translated the following book:《啊北京》徐则臣著 Xu Zechen: Ah, Beijing, 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社 Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-220-7.

徐则臣个人对我的感情很深。在2009年法兰克福书展上#，他的故事《跑过北京》受到好评。我和他的故事有切身的联系，因为他比我早在北京大学读书不久。当时校园里有一种亚文化，博士生们住在餐厅旁边的闲置房间里，是很抢手的聚会参与者，因为他们对大学里的人、程序和风俗习惯了如指掌，而且在独立的诗歌和艺术界也有联系。大学里有一种乐观主义的精神，起初门外涌现出私营商业市场，后来校园里传出 "开公司"（kai gongsi）的口号。那时，毕业生们开始感受到自由和责任，而不是被分配到一个工作岗位上。拿着盗版产品的街边小贩和软件开发的学生先锋也是这幅画的一部分。徐则臣将这种气氛真实地捕捉到，令人信服。我们为他笔下的人物扎根，爱上他们，学会在生活中打拼。我从他那里翻译了以下书：《啊北京》徐则臣著徐则臣。啊，北京，德国波鸿：欧洲大学出版社波鸿：欧洲大学出版社，ISBN 978-3-86515-220-7。

Einer der wichtigsten chinesischen Schriftsteller der Gegenwart ist Han Han. Viele kennen ihn nur als Rennfahrer, Blogger, Sänger oder ähnliches. Aber diese Eigenschaft des „Multi-Artist“ ist ein Teil seines Schriftstellertums. Ich habe ihn in der modernen Harvard Literaturgeschichte Chinas mit einem Kapitel vorgestellt. An der Harvard-Universität und auf der AAS-Konferenz in den USA habe ich Han Han mit Lu Xun verglichen: Beide waren Meinungsführer, stritten sich auch öffentlich und es ging um ähnliche Themen. Allerdings verdankte Lu Xun seine Autorität seiner Gelehrsamkeit und Wortkunst, Han Han seiner Berühmtheit als Celebrity. Han Hans Werke sind schwer zu übersetzen, da er über einen großen Wortschatz und klassische Zitate verfügt, und da der Handlungsfaden seiner Erzählungen Kapriolen schlägt, die durch wörtlich genommene Redensarten, Metaphern oder Allegorien ausgelöst werden, und diese uneigentliche Rede in der Übersetzung oft andere Bedeutungen hat oder schlicht nicht existiert, ist er einer der am schwersten zu übersetzenden Autoren. Han Han hat mit seinen grotesken Elementen und tragischen Helden eine neue Literatur, die des kritischen Surrealismus geschaffen, die durchaus an Miguel de Cervantes und Lu Xun heranreicht.

One of the most important contemporary Chinese writers is Han Han. Many know him only as a racing driver, blogger, singer or the like. But this characteristic of being a "multi-artist" is a part of his writing. I featured him with a chapter in the modern Harvard Literary History of China. At Harvard University and at the AAS conference in the US, I compared Han Han with Lu Xun: Both were opinion leaders, also argued publicly, and the issues were similar. However, Lu Xun owed his authority to his scholarship and wordcraft, Han Han to his celebrity fame. Han Han's works are difficult to translate because of his large vocabulary and classical quotations, and because the plot thread of his stories makes capers triggered by literal idioms, metaphors, or allegories, and this inauthentic speech often has other meanings in translation or simply does not exist, he is one of the most difficult authors to translate. Han Han, with his grotesque elements and tragic heroes, has created a new literature, that of critical surrealism, which certainly comes close to Miguel de Cervantes and Lu Xun.

当今中国最重要的作家之一是韩寒。很多人只知道他是赛车手、博主、歌手之类的身份。但这种 "多艺人 "的特点，也是他作为作家的一部分。我在《中国现代哈佛文学史》中用一章来介绍他。在哈佛大学和美国的AAS会议上，我把韩寒和鲁迅做了比较。两人都是意见领袖，也公开争论过，问题也很相似。然而，鲁迅的权威归功于他的学识和词藻，韩寒归功于他的名人名气。韩寒的作品由于词汇量大，经典语录多，而且他的叙事情节线索帽，由字面的成语、隐喻或寓言引发，这种不真实的言语在翻译中往往有其他含义或根本不存在，所以他是最难翻译的作家之一。韩寒以其怪诞的元素和悲剧性的英雄，创造了一种新的文学，那就是批判超现实主义的文学，这当然接近于米格尔-德-塞万提斯和鲁迅。

=6 跨文化身份=
段：作为汉学家和翻译家，您的跨文化身份让你置身于东西方文明之间。当您从欧洲文化和文学背景来到中国的文化和文学背景中，在两种迥异的语言之间进行转换，是否感到自己的思维方式和行文风格发生了些许改变？

[This question asks you whether living in China for almost eight years affects your translating ideologies? Is there any difference if you only learned Chinese but never lived in China for such a long time? ]

吴：在欧洲，很多孩子最多学习五种语言。我也是多国语言的人，在外语国家和文化中度过了很多时间。在我看来，语言和国界似乎不如那些以这些语言和文化为家，并且（通过互联网、全球化和旅行自由）在这些地区之间越来越独立地移动的人们重要。我们无法选择我们出生的地方，但我们可以选择我们想要生活的地方。迄今为止，我在美国生活了四年，在中国生活了八年。那我是不是就不如中国人的美国人了？当我生活在中国，发现自己在做中文白日梦的时候，我偶尔会忘记自己其实是德国人。文化让我们充实，让我们受教育，让我们变得文明，让我们发挥出最好的一面。

In Europe, many children learn up to five languages. I, too, am multilingual and have spent a lot of time in foreign-language countries and cultures. Language and country borders seem less important to me than the people who are at home in these languages and cultures and who (through the Internet, globalization, and freedom to travel) move more and more independently between these areas. We can't choose where we are born, but we can choose where we want to live. I have lived in the U.S. for four years and in China for eight years so far. Does that make me less American than Chinese? When I live in China and catch myself daydreaming in Chinese, I occasionally forget that I'm actually German. Culture fulfills us, educates us, makes us civilized, it brings out the best in us.

对文化和地域的认同，会产生家的感觉，对地方和同胞产生依恋。但被意识形态利用的不也是这个民族或文化吗？什么力量能够让一个人去打仗，结束别人的生命？是不是所有的意识形态一旦引诱人们去杀人，就会被证明是虚假的？作为世界之间的转换者，作为欧洲对中国的一种学术大使，反之亦然，这两个伟大文明之间任何基于意识形态的敌意在我看来都是寒酸的--只有民族之间的友谊，带着好奇和尊重相遇，才值得超越国界。连莎士比亚都认识到，爱情不仅可以消除敌对宗族之间的隔阂，还可以揭露敌意的谬误。

Identification with a culture and region creates feelings of home and attachment to places and compatriots. But isn't it also this nation or culture that has been exploited by ideologies? What power is capable of making a person go to war and end another person's life? Don't all ideologies, once they have seduced people into killing, turn out to be false? As a shifter between worlds, as a kind of academic ambassador of Europe in China and vice versa, any ideologically based hostility between these two great civilizations seems shabby to me - Only the friendship of peoples, meeting each other curiously and respectfully is worthy to overcome borders. Shakespeare already recognized that love can not only overcome the gulf between hostile clans, but also expose the error of enmity.

=7 中西合璧=
吴：有人认为中华文化走出去最好的译介模式是“中西合璧”，如葛浩文和林丽君的译作在国内外产生了较大影响。您对此有何看法？[I think this answer is rather insufficient. ]

吴：什么是理想的译者？韦努蒂认为译者应该是隐身的，看不见的。如果读者没有注意到所读文本是一个译本，那么译者就达到了完美的境界。

What is an ideal translator? Venuti believes that translators should be invisible and invisible. If the reader doesn't notice that the text he reads is a translation, then the translator has reached a perfect state.

我认为，翻译绝对要来自目标文化和语言。只有这样的译者才能向目标读者传达他自己想要传达的形象。源文化和语言的译者未必是目标文化和语言的主人。当然，真正的双语翻译，在两种文化和语言中成长得差不多，并且精通两种文化和语言的人，在这里是最好的。

I think that a translator must necessarily come from the target culture and language. Only this translator is able to convey to the target readership the image that he himself wants to convey. Translators from the source culture and language may not be masters of the target culture and language. Of course, a truly bilingual translator who has grown up in both cultures and languages about equally and has mastered them would be best here.

此外，如果译者从事另一种职业，即源文本作者的职业，如小说家或诗人，那就更好了。他还应该熟悉源文本的写作时间和环境。他不应该让文本比原作'更好'，但他应该能够接近原作。

Furthermore, it would be good if the translator practiced another profession, that of the source text author, e.g. novelist or poet. He should also be familiar with the time and environment in which the source text was written. He should not make the text 'better' than the original, but he should be able to approach the original.

译文总是一种新的创造，它在文字上不能再模仿原文，而在功能、效果等方面却可以再现原文的特点，所以葛浩文和林丽君这样的“中西合璧”的组合在翻译极具中国特色的作品时应该会比较合适。

Translation is always a new creation. It can no longer imitate the original text in words, but can reproduce the characteristics of the original text in terms of function and effect. Therefore, the combination of "Chinese and Western combination" such as Ge Haowen and Lin Lijun should be more appropriate when translating works with Chinese characteristics.

=8 中华文化外译传播=
段：根据您的实践经验和理性思考，中华文化外译传播有哪些成功因素?

吴：首先，对于普通读者而言，接受《红楼梦》第一步就必须有可读的译本，因此《红楼梦》在其它没有译本的国家的传播有赖于译者的工作。我认为等待引进不如主动输出。这样成功的例子不是没有。20世纪80年代，杨宪益倡议出版熊猫丛书，意在向国外译介中国当代、现代和古代的优秀作品，所出版的杂志和从书在国外有相当大的影响，几乎成为很长时期内国外研究中国汉学、对中国文学有兴趣的人了解中国文学的唯一的窗口。因此，中国相关机构可借鉴当时的经验，在还没有译本的欧洲国家作出尝试。

First of all, for ordinary readers, the first step to accept a Dream of Red Mansions is to have a readable translation, so the dissemination of a Dream of Red Mansions in other countries without a translation depends on the translator's work. I think it is better to take the initiative to export than to wait for import. There are not no such successful examples. In 1980s, Yang Xianyi initiated the publication of Panda Series, aiming at translating and introducing excellent works of contemporary, modern and ancient China to foreign countries. The published magazines and books have a considerable influence abroad, and have almost become the only window for people who study Chinese Sinology abroad and are interested in Chinese literature to understand Chinese literature for a long time. Therefore, relevant Chinese institutions can learn from the experience at that time and try in European countries that have not yet translated them.

其次，西方尤其是美国的《红楼梦》研究开始用现代理论解读《红楼梦》，如 “感觉”、“同性恋”等。因此在每隔几年举办一次的红学会议上，整理以前的研究，撰写一部西方学术界与小说接触史就显得十分重要。

Secondly, the study of "A Dream of Red Mansions" in the West, especially in the United States, began to interpret "A Dream of Red Mansions" with modern theories, such as "feeling" and "homosexuality". Therefore, it is very important to sort out the previous research and write a history of contact between western academic circles and novels at the Redology Conference held every few years.

我很早就开始关注《红楼梦》在西方的接受情况。其刚进入西方世界之时并不是一片叫好，直至被列为世界文学的一部分，这一过程持续了很多年。一方面是因为完整的译本直至XX年才出现，另一方面是因为许多西方汉学家和译者的民族中心主义世界观，他们认为只有本土的文学才称得上世界文学，而对别国文学视若无睹。在我看来，跨越时间空间，对优秀作品的认同还是同样的，因此《红楼梦》应该成为世界文化遗产。

I began to pay attention to the acceptance of A Dream of Red Mansions in the West very early. When it first entered the western world, it was not applauded until it was listed as a part of world literature, which lasted for many years. On the one hand, the complete translation did not appear until XX years; On the other hand, it is because many western sinologists and translators have an ethnocentric world outlook. They think that only local literature can be called world literature and turn a blind eye to other countries' literature. In my opinion, across time and space, the recognition of excellent works is the same, so A Dream of Red Mansions should become a world cultural heritage.

最后，中国文化作品的译介研究不能仅仅依靠本土研究者、译者，还需要目标语国家的同人鼎力相助。就《红楼梦》而言，对其翻译的研究不在少数，但遗憾的是，其中研究者多为中国学者，他们研究时没有与本土学者交流。但我认为，为了提升学术质量，中国学者的学术成果在发表前应由本土学者审查。无论如何，无论在中国还是在西方，一个新的领域就是小说的跨文化研究。

Finally, the translation and introduction of Chinese cultural works can not only rely on local researchers and translators, but also need the full help of colleagues in the target language countries. As far as A Dream of Red Mansions is concerned, there are not a few studies on its translation, but unfortunately, most of the researchers are Chinese scholars, and they did not communicate with local scholars during their research. However, I think that in order to improve the academic quality, the academic achievements of Chinese scholars should be reviewed by local scholars before publication. In any case, whether in China or in the West, a new field is the cross-cultural study of novels.

=9 提建议=
段：您自1990年代来华留学，在华生活多年。作为中西文化的“摆渡人”，您是如何坚持翻译中国经典著作的？您对中德文化交流的未来发展前景有何预见？[What is the future of China-Germany Exchange in your opinion? ]是否可以给年青一代的汉学家、翻译家提出一些建议？

吴：题中的“摆渡人”形象很好，“摆渡人”的形象历来是正面的，在欧洲也是俗称的“好听话”，这也是世界文学中的典型主题。在近5000年前（公元前2600年）的文学作品《吉尔伽美什史诗》就讲述了摆渡人乌尔-萨纳比带国王渡过死亡之水的故事。摆渡人是两个世界的纽带，起着至关重要的作用。其实，译者本身就是一个“摆渡人”，他/她将作者的思想境界、梦境、想象告诉读者，把读者带入目标语环境之中。

The image of "ferryman" in the question is very good. The image of "ferryman" has always been positive. It is also commonly known as "good obedience" in Europe, which is also a typical theme in world literature. Nearly 5,000 years ago (2600 BC), the literary work "Gilgamesh Epic" tells the story of ferryman Ur Sanabi who took the king through the water of death. The ferryman is the link between the two worlds and plays a vital role. In fact, the translator himself is a "ferryman". He/she tells the reader the author's ideological realm, dreams and imagination, and brings the reader into the target language environment.

学生时代时我就发现，中国学生都知道歌德、莎士比亚、海涅，而西方几乎没有人知道屈原、李白、苏东坡、曹雪芹，对此我感到非常震惊。尽管翻译工作在西方不被视为学术研究，没有受到高度重视，但我个人把中国文学作品，特别是名著和经典作品翻译成德文看作毕生的事业。我还在德国维藤建立了一个翻译工作坊，专门鼓励年轻一代的毕业生，为他们争取翻译项目，通常是将中国文学作品译成德语和英语，目前已经翻译出了。。。。。。。。

[What translations have been published/done in your translation workshop in Germany? ]
When I was a student, I found that Chinese students all knew Goethe, Shakespeare and Heine, while almost no one in the West knew Qu Yuan, Li Bai, Su Dongpo and Cao Xueqin. I was very shocked. Although translation is not regarded as an academic research in the West and is not highly valued, I personally regard the translation of Chinese literary works, especially famous works and classic works, into German as a lifelong career. I also set up a translation workshop in Witten, Germany, to encourage the younger generation of graduates and strive for translation projects for them. Usually, Chinese literary works are translated into German and English, which have already been translated. . . . . . . .

当然，从翻译的本质上来说，这是一项语言服务。没有这种服务，研究就无法实现。多了解中国文化，对德国文化没有坏处。而德国民众通常不懂中文，因此通过翻译获得资讯似乎是唯一方式。不过对于专业从事中国文学创作的人来说，当然建议掌握汉语能力，因为读原著永远比读译著更真实。

Of course, translation is essentially a language service. Without this service, research cannot be realized. Knowing more about Chinese culture will do no harm to German culture. German people usually don't understand Chinese, so getting information through translation seems to be the only way. However, for those who specialize in Chinese literary creation, it is of course recommended to master Chinese ability, because reading the original works is always more authentic than reading the translated works.

=10 译研结合=

段：作为世界汉学研究会会长，您组织了多场与汉学相关的国际会议，包括一年一度的世界汉学研究大会（WACS），持续向世界展示中华文化的魅力。您既是译者，又是研究者，您如何看待这两个身份之间的转换？您对从事译研结合的学者有何建议吗？

吴：在西方，学者的地位普遍高于译者。不过，就我而言，译者的工作还是很重要的，因为科学有赖于源头的发展（The work of the translator is nevertheless important, since science depends on the development of sources.）。最重要的是，如果没有翻译，大众就无法认识和了解外国语言与文化。因此，我既做翻译，也做学术研究，一方面是有时在翻译的过程中发现某个学术研究的选题或者已有选题再翻译中找到了一个突破点；另一方面，有时做学术研究需要阅读一些中国文学作品，但发现并没有德译本，所以干脆自己动手翻译。

In the West, the status of scholars is generally higher than that of translators. However, as far as I am concerned, the translator's work is still very important, because science depends on the development of the source. Most importantly, without translation, the public cannot know and understand foreign languages and cultures. Therefore, I do both translation and academic research; On the one hand, I sometimes find a breakthrough point in the process of translation when I find a topic of an academic research or in the re-translation of an existing topic; On the other hand, sometimes it is necessary to read some Chinese literary works for academic research, but it is found that there is no German translation, so I simply translate it myself.

翻译批评现在在中国是比较热门的学术研究方向，拿《红楼梦》为例。我个人认为，做相关翻译批评的学者首先自己也应该是作家，有自己的代表作，或者翻译过一定的作品。此外，做翻译批评时最好将对象锁定为译本语言是母语的作品。如果一个人对自己的源语言掌握得很好，就能够分辨出字里行间的引申义和细微的差别，更好地评估选词、文体等是否得当。但可惜的是，中国红学届或者翻译学届几乎没有人具备这样的条件。

Translation criticism is now a popular academic research direction in China. Take a Dream of Red Mansions as an example. Personally, I think that scholars who do relevant translation criticism should first be writers themselves, have their own representative works, or have translated certain works. In addition, when making translation criticism, it is best to target works whose translation language is the mother tongue. If a person has a good grasp of his source language, he can distinguish the extended meaning and subtle differences between the lines, and better evaluate whether the choice of words and styles are appropriate. However, unfortunately, few people in the Chinese Redology or Translation Studies have such conditions.

我每年邀请100多位同事到自己的领域讲课，主要是觉得人的一生都是可以学习的，通过更多的视角和会议间隙的讨论，可以向同事学习，拓宽自己的视野。

When I invite more than 100 colleagues to lecture on their field every year, it is mainly because I think that one can learn throughout one's life, that one can learn from colleagues and broaden one's horizons through more perspectives and the discussions on the sidelines of the conference.

另外，我还建议做翻译的同仁一定要去原语/目标语国家生活一段时间。截至目前，我在中国生活了八年，每隔一段时间，新的表达方式都会扑面而来，每天都在学习，自然对我研究和翻译都有帮助。

In addition, I also suggest that colleagues who do translation must live in the source/target language countries for a period of time. Up to now, I have lived in China for eight years. Every once in a while, new expressions come to me and I study every day. Naturally, it is helpful for my research and translation.

=11 国际汉学中心=

段：您是湖南师范大学“潇湘学者”特聘教授，并担任国际汉学中心主任。请问：该中心主要从事工作？您未来计划开展哪些项目推动中德文化交流？

吴：国际汉学研究中心是国内国学与海外汉学研究的桥梁。来自世界各地、不同背景的学者，可以依托这个平台进行交流合作。

我们从香港引进了来自美国的Margaret Chu，她在2021年初刚被聘为澳门科技大学副教授。她作为中心的兼职高级研究员，负责联系各国学者，评估和审阅中心的研究成果。朱女士还负责引进了许多同仁，包括来自牛津、加州和马萨诸塞州的同仁。

另外，四位来自德国的学者已经被聘为外国语学院教授，其中两名也将加盟国际汉学研究中心。来自卡尔斯鲁厄的哲学家Ole Döring和来自杜塞尔多夫的历史学家Cord Eberspächer，他曾在那里担任孔子学院院长。

中心的研究员正在共同构思编写《中国研究史》，包括有一卷总论和十卷单行本，该书预计将以英文、德文和中文同时出版。

除此以外，中心正在研究四大名著，特别是《红楼梦》在西方的参与史。

在现代文学中，我们看鲁迅，包括他与欧洲作家和改革教育家的相识。从国际汉学的角度看，钱钟书也很有意思，他的文章中充满了对西方文学的引用。

中心支持将中文书籍翻译成英语和德语。因此，翻译了许多小说、短篇小说和非小说类书籍。

The International Sinology Research Center is a bridge between domestic Sinology and overseas Sinology research. Scholars from all over the world and from different backgrounds can rely on this platform for exchanges and cooperation.

We introduced Margaret Chu from the United States from Hong Kong. She was just hired as an associate professor at Macau University of Science and Technology in early 2021. As a part-time senior researcher of the Center, she is responsible for contacting scholars from all over the world to evaluate and review the research results of the Center. Ms Zhu is also responsible for bringing in many colleagues, including colleagues from Oxford, California and Massachusetts.

In addition, four scholars from Germany have been hired as professors of the Foreign Languages Institute, and two of them will join the International Sinology Research Center. Ole D ö ring, a philosopher from Karlsruhe, and Cord Ebersp ä cher, a historian from D ü sseldorf, where he served as the dean of Confucius Institute.

Researchers at the Center are jointly conceiving the compilation of "History of Chinese Studies", including a general book and ten singles, which is expected to be published in English, German and Chinese at the same time.

In addition, the center is studying the participation history of Four Great Classical Novels, especially A Dream of Red Mansions in the West.

In the area of modern literature, we look at Lu Xun, including his acquaintance with European writers and reform educators. Qian Zhongshu is also interesting from the perspective of international Chinese studies; his texts are full of references to Western literature.

The Center supports the translation of Chinese books into English and German. Thus, numerous novels, short stories and non-fiction books have been translated.

=12. 《红楼梦》跟今天国内外的读者有什么关系？=
段：《红楼梦》跟今天国内外的读者有什么关系？

Woesler: The novel is an embodiment of “Zeitgeist”.

吴：小说作为 "时代精神 "的体现。

According to Georg Lukács’ Theory of the Novel, while the Epos (like Homer’s Ilias, which like the Dream reasons the stories in the divine realm) displayed a holistic world experience, a complete, self-contained culture, the novel displays, that the modern world has become infinitely large and has lost its homely quality.

根据格奥尔格-卢卡奇的小说理论，虽然Epos（像荷马的伊利亚斯，它像梦理由神界的故事）展示了一个整体的世界经验，一个完整的，自足的文化，小说展示，现代世界已经变得无限大，已经失去了它的家的品质。

The novel as a genre is no longer documenting just one culture, but represents, with the words of Walter Benjamin, the Organon of History. So the understanding of the novel changed with Lukacs to historical-philosophically. A novel is understood as typical for its historical era, the novel embodies the spirit of the epoch (Zeitgeist).

小说作为一种文体，不再只是记录一种文化，而是用瓦尔特-本雅明的话说，代表了历史的有机体。所以，对小说的理解随着卢卡奇的改变，变成了历史哲学的理解。小说被理解为其历史时代的典型，小说体现了时代精神（Zeitgeist）。

The Red Chamber Dreams are written in front of the background of the Manchu minority having taken over the power in formerly Han-shaped Ming-China (which was a multi-ethnic and crosscultural society) and families suffering the changing favor of changing emperors, with the Cao family being fostered by Kangxi and being persecuted by Yongzheng.

《红楼梦》写的是满族少数民族在原汉字形的明中国（这是一个多民族、跨文化的社会）掌握了政权，家庭遭受换代皇帝的宠爱，曹家被康熙扶植，被雍正迫害的背景前。

While the author in his time could not criticize the system and power of emperors, in the novel he came to terms with this life by seeking the guilt for the persecution in the growing decadence of the family (engaging in Daoism, leisure, poetry-writing, arts and music instead of learning for being able to earn a living) and in himself not fulfilling the expectations as the family heir. This description of decadence of a declining family reminds us of the novels of Tschechov (and e.g. in the Buddenbrooks by Mann, including the turn to arts and music).

虽然作者在他的时代无法批判帝制和皇权，但在小说中，他为家族的日益衰败（参加道教、娱乐、诗歌、艺术和音乐活动，而不是为了谋生而学习）和自己作为家族继承人没有实现家族期望感到自责，通过这样做，他也对这种生活做妥协。这种对没落家族颓废状况的描写，让我们想起了契诃夫的小说（如曼恩的《布登布鲁克》，包括对艺术和音乐的转向）

Moreover, with the detailed description of life on all social levels in early Qing Dynasty, the Dream appears as a documentary historical novel very much like Günter Grass’ The Tin Drum 1959.

此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的《铁皮鼓1959》非常相似，《铁皮鼓1959》是一部纪实历史小说。

=13. 曹雪芹和跨国文化=

段：从跨国文化的角度看曹雪芹你有合想法？

Woesler: Cao Xueqin and even more his protagonist Jia Baoyu both are early humanists, universalists and world citizens. The Red Chamber Dreams function worldwide. The Dream is a complex showroom of diverse aspects of Chinese cultures and is the embodiment and essence of Chinese cultures, but it has also a global impact, therefore it should be honoured as “World Documentary Heritage”.

吴：曹雪芹，尤其是他的主人公贾宝玉，都是早期的人文主义者，普世主义者和世界公民。《红楼梦》具有普世价值。《红楼梦》综合展示了中国的多元文化，是中国文化的集中体现和精华，同时在全球范围内产生影响，理应列入世界记忆遗产名录。

Cao Xueqin’s message is not simply the one of “Paradise Lost”, instead he himself made the best out of his life. Although being less wealthy than when his family still enjoyed the favour of the emperor, there was a payroll system and a social net intact in Early Qing China, where he received enough income to be independent from his rich relatives, to be selective on accepting jobs, to live a relaxed life in a small house in the nature, spending time with his family and friends, follow his own interests, like reading, writing and drinking wine, making kites for the children and thinking of the disadvantaged.

曹雪芹所传达的信息并不是简单的“失乐园”，相反，他把自己的生活过得很好。虽然比起他的家族享受皇帝的宠爱，他过得没有那么富裕，但清初中国有一套薪俸制度和一张完整的社会网，他获得了足够的收入，可以独立于富贵亲戚，可以有选择性地接受工作，可以在大自然的小房子里过着悠闲的生活，可以与家人和朋友共度时光，可以追随自己的兴趣，例如读书，写作和饮酒，可以为孩子们做风筝，可以为弱势群体着想。

Cao Xueqin was fully aware of his time and China’s cultural achievements, he was familiar with the different levels of society, he was a detailed observer and skilful narrator. He may have conceptualized the ending of the novel as a discussion about the different personalities of the characters in the novel and therefore displaying his reflection about life and his psychological understanding of the diversity of human nature. He was able to grasp the “spirit of time” (Zeitgeist) and with his autobiographical experience create an eternal coming-of-age novel not just for his family, for the Qing-Chinese, for Chinese people, but for mankind.

曹雪芹对自己所处的时代和中国的文化成就了如指掌，他熟悉社会的不同层面，他是一个细致的观察者和娴熟的叙述者。因此，他在小说中对人的不同个性的理解和对小说中人物性格的多样性进行了概念化的探讨。他能够把握“时代精神”，用他的自传体经历，不仅为他的家庭，为清朝的中国人，为中国人民，而且为人类，创作了一部永恒的成人小说。

This tradition of Coming-of-age novels is also a European one, like enlightenment philosopher Voltaire’s novel Candide or Optimism《老实人》shows at the very same time (1759) in Europe. Also Voltaire’s Candide has to leave the luxurious paradise of his childhood and strives for true love, but his main learning is more pessimistic, since Voltaire wrote the novel in opposition to Leibniz, who optimistically looked to China as “the best of all worlds”. Recent research findings show that China had a much larger influence on European enlightenment philosophers and we can be sure, that also Cao Xueqin was aware of some European literary traditions.

这种成熟的传统小说也是一个欧洲人,像启蒙运动哲学家伏尔泰在欧洲同时间出版的的小说《老实人》(1759年)。伏尔泰笔下的老实人不得不离开童年的奢华天堂，为追求真爱而奋斗，但他的主要学习内容却更为悲观，因为伏尔泰的小说与莱布尼茨截然相反，莱布尼茨乐观地认为中国是“所有世界中最好的”。最近的研究发现，中国对欧洲启蒙运动哲学家的影响要大得多，我们可以肯定，曹雪芹对欧洲的一些文学传统也有所了解。

=15. 结语=

段：我们非常感佩您对中华文化的热爱、对推动中德文化交流做出的突出贡献！再次感谢您接受我的访问！祝您多结学术硕果！

吴：谢谢你！的确，通过文化交往把人们团结起来，这是我们这个时代最重要的任务之一。许多国家都以自己的文化为荣。可是，没有任何一种文化逊色于其它文化，每种文化都有其独特的魅力，促进我们作为个人和整个人类的发展。我作为一个德国人，爱上了中国文化。如果其它国家的人也爱上了中国文化，中国人爱上了其它国家的文化，那么可以想见，整个人类文化必将绽放。这样，人们就能实现尊重和宽容。

Thank you! Indeed, uniting people through cultural exchanges is one of the most important tasks of our time. Many countries are proud of their own culture. However, no culture is inferior to other cultures, and each culture has its own unique charm, which promotes our development as individuals and as human beings as a whole. As a German, I fell in love with Chinese culture. If people from other countries also fall in love with Chinese culture and Chinese people fall in love with other countries' cultures, it is conceivable that the whole human culture will bloom. In this way, people can achieve respect and tolerance.

=SAMPLE=
'''美国汉学家白亚仁谈中国小说在英美的翻译与传播'''

□ 受访人：［美］白亚仁（Allan H. Barr)
采访人：杨平

访谈按语：白亚仁（Allan H. Barr），1954 年 4 月出生于加拿大，1977 年获得剑桥大学东方研究学士学位，1983 年获得牛津大学中国文学专业博士学位。现任美国波摩纳学院（Pomona College）亚洲语言文学系教授。早期主要从事中国古典文学尤其是明清小说的研究；目前主要从事中国当代文学的译介，翻译了余华的《在细雨中呼喊》《十个词汇里的中国》《黄昏里的男孩》《第七天》等作品，并编译了韩寒的
《这一代》。
2017 年 12 月 20 日，白亚仁教授应邀来浙江外国语学院进行学术讲座，期间笔者对他进行了访谈，就白教授与中国文化的因缘、对《聊斋志异》的研究、对余华作品的翻译，及中国文学的海外传播等话题进行了愉快的交流。
中图分类号：H059 doi:10.19326/j.cnki.2095-9257.2019.04.002

杨平（下文简称“ 杨”）：白教授您好！非常感谢您接受我的采访。您是著名的汉学家，也是中国文学研究和翻译的专家，尤其是在明清小说家蒲松龄及其《聊斋志异》的研究方面和中国当代文学的翻译方面卓有成就。首先我想问一下，您当初为什么选择学习中文，研究、翻译中国文学？

白亚仁（下文简称“ 白”）：我想家庭背景有一定的影响。我父母都研究外语，他们都在爱丁堡大学（University of Edinburgh）学习古典文学、希腊语和拉丁语。我父亲研究希伯来语，是《圣经》语言研究专家，也研究其他一些中东语言；我母亲后来在中学教拉丁语和希腊语。我姐姐在大学学习法语，我自己在中学学习法语、拉丁语和希腊语。我不想重复我父母和我姐姐走过的路，所以就选择了一个比较遥远的文化。我喜欢法语之类的现代语言，也喜欢古代的拉丁语和希腊语，中文刚好古代语和现代语兼而有之，从古文到现代汉语发展没有中断。如果学习中文，那就有机会同时接触古代汉语和现代汉语。我也可以选择日语，但是日本历史、日本文化没有那么吸引我，我觉得中国有更丰富、更悠久的文化传统。

我于 20 世纪 70 年代开始学习中文，当时是想更多地了解中国。那时还是“毛泽东时代”，中国好像是一个很神秘的国家。到了“文化大革命” 后期，中国开始恢复跟西方国家的交流，英国学生开始有机会到中国来留学或者进修，所以我觉得可能以后会有更好的学习环境。那时我没想到中国的变化会这么快、这么惊人，但就是预感中国会有变化。我高中就申请到剑桥大学去学中文，那时中国现当代文学没有很吸引我，引起我兴趣的是中国古代文学，尤其是明清小说，我们本科时阅读的冯梦龙“三言”的一些短篇，还有《红楼梦》和《儒林外史》的一些篇章都很有趣。我研究生时的研究方向也是明清文学，尤其是明清小说。

我对翻译的兴趣是最近 20 年才开始的。一方面，翻译作为学术活动、学术成果在美国大学并不那么受重视。刚参加工作时，我没想过要做翻译。晋升教授以后，我享有更多的自由，可以做一些自己想做的事情，这才开始从事翻译。另一方面，20 世纪 90 年代后期，中国当代文学出现了一些比较出色的作品，这也是我尝试翻译中国文学的原因。我之所以喜欢翻译，因为它跟研究不一样。研究古典文学比较辛苦，翻译当代文学就相对轻松，还可以直接与作者交流，研究蒲松龄就没有这种乐趣。翻译带给我快乐，使我得以更多了解当代中国文学的动向，丰富了我的学术生活和精神生活。杨：是什么原因使您决定研究明清文言小说，如《聊斋志异》的？

白：我在大学四年级快毕业的时候开始阅读《聊斋志异》，觉得趣味十足。当时读的是中文原著，比较吃力，但依靠一些注释也基本可以读懂。剑桥大学中文系很重视传统文化和古典文学，我们的中文口语可能不那么流畅，但是读古文还是有相当水平的。我喜欢研究别人不太研究的作家和作品。现在《聊斋志异》比较热门，但在 20世纪 70 年代末我作研究生时，从 1949 年到 1978 年，中国只出过两本有关《聊斋志异》的专著，重要的论文也只有十几篇。为什么文言小说在唐朝达到一个高峰，在蒲松龄生活的清朝又达到另一个高峰？这是我当时感兴趣的问题。同时，蒲松龄从 30 多岁开始写《聊斋志异》，一直写到快70 岁，在这个漫长的过程中，他的写作发生了怎样的变化？这也是我想研究的问题。此外，《聊斋志异》中有些故事并不纯粹是虚构的，而是来源于现实生活，而我恰好也喜欢从历史的角度去研究文学。基于这些考虑，《聊斋志异》深深地吸引了我。后来《聊斋志异》逐渐成为很多人关注的作品，我的兴趣反而淡薄了，最近 20 年基本没有发表与《聊斋志异》相关的论文，转而研究一些没什么人研究的文言小说及作家。

杨：您是否关注过《聊斋志异》的英译本？

白：我阅读原著的同时也读了翟理斯（HerbertGiles，1845—1935）的译本“Strange Tales from a Chinese Studio”(1)。翟理斯翻译了《聊斋志异》三分之一左右的故事，但他的本意是把译文分享给他的孩子，而《聊斋志异》本来是为成年人写的，并不是儿童读物。为了满足儿童的阅读需求，他做了相应的修改或删除。比如说，原著中一个书生和一个美女相遇，二人可能很快发生了性关系，但在翟理斯译本中他们就只是喝茶。在《红玉》等好几个故事里他都做了这样的改写。从其他方面来说他还是个优秀的译者，而且他使用了维多利亚时期的英语，跟我们现在使用的英语有所差别，很好地反映了《聊斋志异》使用的中文不是现代普通白话文的事实。
杨：您为什么从中国明清文学的研究转向中国当代文学的翻译？

白：研究古典文学很吃力，古文很难懂，资料也难找，而且在图书馆借阅图书也有各种麻烦，效率很低。相比之下，做翻译要轻松很多，一台电脑，几本词典，再加上一两个中国朋友就可以了。我自己投入翻译工作，一方面是想换换口味；另一方面，我在教学过程中接触到一些中国当代文学的译本，对别人的译文往往不太满意，总觉得自己能够译得更好。做翻译给了我放开的机会，可以暂时摆脱严谨的学术研究。翻译中国当代文学作品，好像去当下的中国街道上看风景、看人物；搞明清文学研究能去看什么呢？

杨：在现当代众多有名的作家中，您为何选择翻译余华的作品？

白：当初我看中了余华的《许三观卖血记》（Chronicle of a Blood Merchant），1996 年左右我读了原著，两天就读完了。这本书的可读性很强，一些细节让我很感动，有些情节让我想哭，有些情节又令我想笑，我觉得很精彩，好像中国当代小说很少能引起这么一种反应；而且书的篇幅不长，语言简单，翻译不那么费力，这正是我想要翻译的那种书。但是很快我发现已经有人在翻译这本书，(2) 自己再翻译就不是很好的选择，所以我就决定翻译余华的短篇小说集《黄昏里的男孩》（Boy in the Twilight）(1)。这本书我也喜欢，篇幅比《许三观卖血记》还短，翻译更加容易。当时西方有很多反映“文化大革命”和“毛泽东时代”的著作及回忆录，我认为这些书很有价值，但如果外国人只读这样的书，就难以了解中国 1978 年以后的变化，还以为中国街上都是红卫兵呢。《黄昏里的男孩》的故事都发生在改革开放初期，与中国政治保持了一定的距离，更多反映的是普通老百姓的家庭问题，比如说父母和孩子的代沟、婚姻中的危机等，我觉得这是西方人比较容易认同和理解的题材，有译介的价值。
记得第一次跟余华见面是 2001 年，我利用学术假去北京拜访他。他同意我翻译这本书，从此我们开始了长达十几年的合作。无论是我来中国还是他去美国，我们都会见面。翻译了这本书后两三年，我又翻译了他的第一部长篇小说《在细雨中呼喊》（Cries in the Drizzle）(2)，2007年，这本书在美国上市。后来余华写了《兄弟》（Brothers）(3)，因为一些原因我没有承担这本书的翻译，但余华去美国为《兄弟》英文版做宣传时，到我的学校做了讲座。因为这场讲座，他开始写《十个词汇里的中国》（China in Ten Words）(4)，我也与他进行了第三次合作。《兄弟》之后，他写的《第七天》（The Seventh Day）(5) 也是我翻译的。目前美国已经出版了我翻译的四部余华作品，明年还有一个中短篇小说集出版，书名是《四月三日事件》（The April Third Incident）。

杨：您觉得余华小说有什么特点？您在翻译余华小说时遇到过哪些困难和挑战？

白：我喜欢余华的写作风格，简洁、朴实。余华的小说比较容易翻译，因为语言平实，没有方言，用的是标准普通话，句子往往也比较简短，没有那么多中国特有的东西，很少有“这个外国文化没有，怎么翻译成英文”的困扰。但同时，简洁或简单也会造成翻译的困难，余华写得不一定很具体，如果不小心处理，平易近人有可能就会变成平淡无奇。比如说《活着》（To Live）(6) 中提到了“羊”，那是 sheep 还是 goat ？如果是sheep，会不会是 lamb ？是一岁的羊还是三岁的羊？书里没有清楚地交代。《活着》的译者可能没搞清楚这个羊是 sheep、goat 还是 lamb，译本里会看到一些不那么一致的提法。再比如我最近翻译的《四月三日事件》中，男主人公很关注一个叫白雪的女子，有一天，他注意到白雪穿着红衣服。“红衣服”不是很具体的说法，是什么红衣服？是裤子、衬衣、大衣还是外套？如果翻译成 red clothes，那不能让读者想到她长什么样，英语读者不太习惯这个说法。遇到这种情况，我会发邮件给余华：在你心目中，那是什么样的红衣服？还有《在细雨中呼喊》中，故事发生在一个叫南门的乡村，从南门村到县城有一条小路。“小路”也是比较难翻译的，是 small road 还是 little road ？是用泥土还是水泥铺的？他并没有说明，外国人难以想象那是什么样的小路。我问了余华，才知道是path，而不是 road。余华小说的很多句子没有清晰的语法结构，因为叙述者往往不是文学家，而是像《活着》中福贵那样的农民和《第七天》中杨飞那样的普通职员。他们用很通俗的语言讲故事，可能一句话就包含了三四件事情，几件事情只是简单地连接在一起。如果直接翻译成英文，英美读者就会觉得这个句子没有什么逻辑，而是简单的拼凑。我阅读我的译文初稿时，每每觉得还要做一些工作才能让故事更容易为英语读者接受，为此，我会稍微增加一些逻辑词，比如说加上 and、although 等连接词，以符合英语读者的接受习惯。
所以翻译余华作品一方面似乎很简单，一个段落、一页、一章没有太多困难，但另一方面，读自己译文时就会觉得还得下大力气进行完善。

杨：就您所知，余华作品在英美的接受和影响情况如何？

白：影响情况难以判断。影响表现为被别的作家模仿，他们发现一个同行写的东西很好，然后使用同样的写法。目前我还没发现哪位中国作家在西方有着这样的影响。但接受肯定是有的，一些重要的报纸、杂志会刊发书评。现在，余华、莫言、苏童和阎连科等作家在国外会有媒体关注，也有一定的读者，但他们的作品到现在为止都没有成为畅销书。据说唯一畅销的是科幻小说《三体》，比较严肃、传统的文学作品可能都还没有取得突破。
余华的书在国外卖得不错，其中卖得最好的应该是《活着》。很多人喜欢这本小说，故事本身很有趣，同时呈现了中国几十年的历史，仿佛一本简明的历史教科书。而且还有电影，有些人会先看电影，然后再看原著。虽然《活着》的故事发生在中国，但故事本身比较具有普世性，外国读者即便不了解中国历史，也会被这个故事感动。福贵热爱生命，在苦难面前保持乐观，我想很多人会认同这种人生态度。
《十个词汇里的中国》也受到广泛的好评，很多人给朋友推荐这本书。这本书可读性也很强，有很多有意思的小故事，谈到“毛泽东时代”、改革开放时代，时间跨度大，却又不像严肃文学那么难懂。虽然是作者的主观视角，但故事真实、生动。读者一般都会很喜欢这本书。

杨：莫言小说在西方的反响和接受也不尽如人意吗？

白：莫言获得诺贝尔奖后，读者肯定是增加了，但我感觉他也没有一本书能够引起特别关注，或者让人特别兴奋。莫言获奖后在西方引起了某种程度的“莫言热”，但我不知道有多少人真心喜欢他的作品。女性读者恐怕尤其不太容易接受莫言小说所描写的暴力和丑陋。每次诺贝尔文学奖评出后，有些读者可能觉得有责任去读一读获奖者的书，起码要读一本，但这并不意味着他们会读他全部的作品。

杨：余华或其他中国作家有没有可能获得诺贝尔文学奖？译者的作用是否重要？

白：莫言获得诺贝尔文学奖说明中国作家和中国文学的国际影响力提高了，其他中国作家能否获得诺贝尔文学奖很难预测。译者、编辑、出版社都是重要的因素，另外宣传和营销也起着关键的作用。莫言的成功在一定程度上要归功于他的英文译者葛浩文（Howard Goldblatt）。葛浩文翻译了四十多本中国小说，在美国、英国等以英文为母语的国家，他的贡献很大，没有他，很多中国小说根本无法进入英文读者的视野。

杨：中国作家的写作与西方读者的接受存在差异，翻译时译者如何去平衡？

白：中国作家希望他们的作品能够获得不同读者的喜爱和欣赏，尽量扩大作品的读者群，但凡是有兴趣阅读中国小说英译本的英文读者，一般都受过良好教育，文学品位较高，他们不一定需要作者把事情说得很直白，而更愿意自己去琢磨，希望有独立思考的余地。在西方编辑看来，作者不用那么直接地告诉读者，只需展示一下就行了，只要展示得比较传神，读者自然能够明白。译者还是要尊重原文，如果原著“告诉”比较多， “展示”比较少，也只能接受现实，而不能单方面改动原作。

杨：您对葛浩文译本中多处删改原文的翻译策略有何看法？

白：我曾把葛浩文的译文与原著进行对比，确实有一些不一样的地方，我不确定是不是因为他用的中文版本跟正式出版的版本有所差异。
葛浩文可能有自己的理论考量，他认为中国缺乏编辑文化。西方国家的编辑一般是很有权威的，他们可以告诉哪怕是很著名的作家：这个地方写得不好，需要修改，或者我有建议希望你能考虑。这样修订稿跟交给编辑的初稿可能有相当大的改动。而中国的编辑没有这么高的权威，比较有名的作家完全可以告诉编辑：一点也不能更改！鉴于这种情况，葛浩文会觉得译本还是需要一定的编辑工作，既然中国编辑不承担这个责任，那么这个责任就要由译者承担。比如，莫言一本书的中文版长达五百多页，翻译成英文可能有六百多页，那么出版社可能会告诉葛浩文，我们不会出版这么长的书，你要想办法把它缩短一点，那他就会删除几章或者删除部分内容。

杨：您自己的翻译中有没有遇到这方面的问题？

白：我对《十个词汇里的中国》的个别地方进行了改动，其他译本基本上没有。《十个词汇里的中国》的编辑通过我把她的想法传达给余华，请他做出相应的修改，但是不多。我自己不太做大幅度的修改，可能是没有那么自信，不觉得自己能够判断什么是成功或不成功的写作，所以一般还是尊重原文。

杨：请您谈谈对《红楼梦》几个译本的看法。

白：我最熟悉的就是霍克斯（David Hawkes，1923—2009）和闵福德（John Minford）的版本 (1)。我还知道乔利（Henry B. Joly，1857—1898）的版本(2) 及杨宪益的版本 (3)，但没怎么读。霍克斯版本在1973 年出版第一册，当时我非常喜欢，现在也喜欢。我在英国长大，霍克斯是英国汉学家，当时感觉他的译文很通顺，很容易接受。后来搬到美国，再翻阅他的译本，用来教学生，结果美国学生认为英国味道很浓，好像故事不是发生在 18 世纪的中国，而是发生在 18 世纪的英国。这是霍克斯译本的一个问题。当然这其实是英语本身的问题，要么是美国的口语，要么是英国的口语。美国的口语美国人很适应，英国人就不适应，反之亦然。另外《红楼梦》有同性恋的内容，霍克斯的翻译一般比较可靠地反映了故事的文化背景，但他翻译中国传统文化中同性恋的替代概念“龙阳之兴”(4) 时，没有忠实于中国文化传统。“龙阳之兴”在中文里没有贬义，“兴”就是 tendency 或者 interest，可是霍克斯把它翻译成 vice，就有明显的贬义。英国传统文化不接受同性恋，非常排斥，他采取了英国比较流行的态度翻译这个词，我想他对待同性恋的这种态度不适合《红楼梦》，因为清代还是比较接受同性恋的。这是他翻译中的一个美中不足之处吧。但是霍克斯的诗词翻译非常好，这些诗文翻译成英文后仍然是非常好的诗词。总体而言，霍克斯对《红楼梦》翻译的贡献是很大的。

杨：您在课堂上使用《红楼梦》哪个译本？学生们对它评价如何？白：我给学生讲课时用的是霍克斯译本，因为容易买到。我的学生总的来说不太喜欢《红楼梦》，他们记不住人名。霍克斯将人名对应为英文里的单词，读者可以较少面对那些外国名字，会觉得亲切一点，比如 Patience（平儿）、Aroma（袭人）等。另外，《红楼梦》很长，一般不能在一学期内讲完，最多只能学习第一册，还不到全书的四分之一，学生会为此感到沮丧：花了好几个星期读了那么多内容，结果还只是全书的一小部分。

杨：近五十年中国文学在英美的翻译与传播情况如何？

白：西方 20 世纪 60 年代以前比较流行一种看法，就是认为中国古代小说没有西方小说那么好。外国人不太容易欣赏中国的这些作品，因为西方翻译家认为中国小说有缺陷，没有必要把全部内容都翻译成英文，他们有理由、有权力删掉一些多余的诗词，或者删掉故事太长、情节无聊的内容。20 世纪 40 年代韦利（Arthur Waley， 1889—1966）把《西游记》的三分之一翻译成英文，书名是“Monkey”，(5) 他认为《西游记》有很多重复的内容，没有必要翻译全文。这在 20 世纪前半叶是一个比较普遍的态度。《红楼梦》也有一个缩写本，只有 300 页。一个转折点可能是霍克斯在 1973 年出版的《红楼梦》译本。霍克斯认为他有责任把《红楼梦》的所有内容翻译成英文，他的“企鹅古典系列”（Penguin Classics）版本是最流行的《红楼梦》英译本。自此，别的翻译家也大多采取了相同的态度，很认真地把中国古代小说完整地翻译成英文。芝加哥大学教授余国藩（Anthony C. Yu，1938— 2015）在 1977 年出版了《西游记》新译本的第一册，全书一共有四册，1983 年出齐。(6)《三国演义》的完整译本 (7) 于 1994 年出版，译者罗慕士（Moss Roberts）是纽约大学的教授。另外一个获得好评的译本是《金瓶梅》，译者芮效卫（David Tod Roy，1933—2016）也是芝加哥大学教授，他用了二十年来翻译这本书，第一册于 1993 年(1) 出版，一册有二十回，最后一册在 2013 年出版。《金瓶梅》译本的特点是芮效卫做了很多注释，《金瓶梅》英译本全五册的总页数是 2500 多页，注释多达 4400 多条。

最近 50 年来，把全部的原著呈现给读者好像是一个比较流行的现象，好像只有文言小说没有这么做，可能因为文言小说没有一个很整体的统一（unity）。现在的情况是，一方面，有些很完整且翻译得非常认真的译本，读者不一定很多，因为他们读完这些作品要花很长的时间；另外一方面，有一些新的选集针对普通的学生，普通的读者。总的来讲，无论是全译本还是节译本，这些翻译家都是用比较同情的态度去翻译的，不像一百年以前的译者，总是对中国古典小说进行批评和指责。

如英国的蓝诗玲（Julia Lovell）、韩斌（Nicky Harman），美国的译者更多。80 年代生活在中国的几位译者做的一些翻译，外文出版社推出的“熊猫丛书”在国外发行有问题，没做什么宣传，很难买到。现在一般是外国人把中文作品翻译成自己的母语，在国外的出版社出版，并且会做一定的宣传，因此提高了作品的知名度。

杨：现在翻译中国文学作品的译者有汉学家、外籍普通学者、外籍华人、中国本土学者等等，您认为最为理想的译者是谁？

白：汉学家一般是大学教授，但教授不一定是好译者。有些人不是教授，但中文英文都很好，也可以把中国作品翻译成英文。是不是汉学家是次要的，甚至有人认为教授不是最合适的翻译人选，因为他们可能读了太多的学术著作，比较严谨迂腐。较为口语化或生活化的书，博士学位可能无助于准确翻译。译者最好在中国生活过多年，有较好的语言、文化感觉，知道中国人讲的话是什么意思。我想外国译者把中文作品翻译成自己的母语时比较有优势，因为他们对自己的语言有丰富的感觉和直觉，对于什么是好的翻译、怎样翻译比较成功，心里比较有数。

杨：目前在中国文化对外传播中强调中国声音和中国话语，提倡保留原汁原味。您对“中国作品走出去倾向于异化”的翻译策略和方法有什么看法？

白：我自己的翻译理论很薄弱，只是一个翻译实践者。我没有什么深厚的理念功底，更多靠自己的直觉和感觉，针对具体问题选择归化或者异化，不会一概而论。
我注意到有些译者遇到“山寨”等中国特色词汇时，认为无法用外语表达，最好用拼音。我自己觉得这个办法不好。虽然“copycat”还不能完全代表“山寨”，但比较简洁，比用拼音好，至少传达了原文的一部分味道。比如中国人打招呼说“吃饭了吗”“你回来了”，这些直接翻译成英文就不妥当，我们不这么讲话。虽然它们反映了中国文化，中国人这么说不奇怪，但看译文会觉得奇怪，所以我觉得这种情况直译不一定是个很好的策略。

杨：您为什么翻译中国“80 后”作家韩寒的作品？

白：西蒙与舒斯特公司（Simon & Schuster）是美国的一家大型出版社，他们想出版韩寒的两本书，并找到了我。我本来没有很关注中国“80后”作家的作品，但认为通过翻译可以更多地了解他们。出版社首先想出版韩寒的一些博客文章，我读了后觉得他的写作风格比较有趣，与传统的文学作品不同，值得翻译。出版社给我提供了韩寒杂文的台湾版，书名叫《青春》，但我只选了书中的一部分作品，更多的文章直接选自他的博客。我们选的文集书名是《这一代》（This Generation）(2)。他的很多文章写得犀利风趣，但考虑到美国读者的兴趣，有些文章不适合选择进来。例如他谈中国当代诗歌的文章，虽然文章本身很好，但因为美国人不了解中国当代诗歌，所以就放弃了。美国人更有兴趣的是他那些关于政治、社会、文化的杂文。出版社也希望我翻译韩寒的长篇小说《1988：我想和世界谈谈》，但我并不太看好这部在中国炒得很热的小说，所以就没有翻译。

杨：您如何评价韩寒及其作品？

白：他是一位特别的作家，是一代中国青年的代表。他善于独立思考，不会在意主流媒体怎么说、一般百姓怎么想，不肯人云亦云。韩寒的存在也让美国人看到，中国不仅仅有官方的声音，还有个体自己的声音。
他文笔有趣，有讽刺，有比喻，很巧妙。他的幽默也很有特色，很多时候利用谐音调侃一些社会现象，翻译起来比较困难。我有时候想，如果找不到合适的对应的句子，我宁可舍弃，因为我不想在后边加个注解：这种做法在中文里是很好笑的。

杨：近年来您的翻译取向发生了改变，从小说转向随笔和杂文等非虚构作品，这是为什么？

白：这反映了美国相当一部分读者的兴趣。外国人阅读中国文学作品有一个重要动机，希望借此多了解中国，让他们通过小说接触一个虚拟的中国，还不如让他们接触一个离现实更近、非虚构的中国。曾经有人在《华盛顿邮报》上说：读完一部中国长篇小说之后，感觉与其用小说的形式去反映中国的一些不合理现象，不如干脆写非虚构作品。既然中国的某些现实已经让人眼花缭乱，何必要费尽心思去创造另一个虚拟世界呢？

杨：中国文学“走出去”需要克服哪些困难？中国当代文学在西方的前景如何？

白：中国文学的翻译、出版和海外接受都不够理想，需要克服的困难很多，主要问题有：翻译质量、创作倾向、文化差异、版权代理、推广力度、营销手段等等。
由于中国经济实力的强大，外国人普遍认为应该加强对中国的了解，西方媒体非常关注中国的动向，海外出版社比过去更积极地推销与中国有关的书籍。读几本当代作家的小说好像是一个比较便利的办法，所以我对中国当代文学在西方的前景还是持乐观态度的。

杨：您最近在做什么翻译或研究工作？近期有什么打算吗？

白：翻译只是我的一部分工作，作品暂时不多，翻译量不大，一般两三年才翻译一本书，我对自己的翻译量没有太高的期待。我现在正在翻译一个回忆录，是艾青儿子艾未未写的一部非虚构作品，讲述他父亲和他自己的故事。他是一位重要的艺术家，我对他的回忆录饶有兴味。
我还会继续研究明清文学，也许会写一两篇跟《聊斋志异》有关的论文，谈谈书里涉及的谣言和传闻的故事，这些在明清社会还是很流行的。

杨：谢谢！白教授耐心细致的解答！

白：谢谢！我很高兴接受采访！

2021 Interview with Duan Yuanyuan

2021-03-05T08:24:20Z

Bebery: /* 1 让·莫内讲席教授 */

2021 Interview with Duan Yuanyuan

2021-03-04T14:15:15Z

Bebery: /* 13 中德文化交流 */

'''访谈提纲 Interview with Martin Woesler by Duan Yuanyuan'''

=1 让·莫内讲席教授=
吴教授您好，非常感谢您拨冗接受我的访谈！首先恭喜您获得“让·莫内讲席教授”荣誉称号，此地位是欧盟对从事欧洲一体化教学与研究学者的最高学术承认！您真可谓是一位欧盟的学术大使！据悉，该项目申请难度颇大，中国今年只有湖南师范大学、四川大学和中国政法大学三所大学获得资助。您可否借此次获奖的机缘，说明你眼中中欧的学术交流呢？
不客气！的确，我把自己看作是中欧之间的“文化大使”，把这次获得“让·莫内讲席教授”称号看作是在华工作、学习、生活近三十年的一个阶段性总结。许多西方人认为在华生活是一个极大的挑战，对此我并不否认，但是挑战之余，我还从中看到了变革[What kind of transformation are we talking about here? ]的必要性，而且变革只有通过接触和交流才能实现。中国应该有更多的欧洲学者，中国也应该成为德国每一所大学亟需讨论的议题。
You're welcome! Indeed, I regard myself as a "cultural ambassador" between China and Europe, and I regard winning the title of "Professor Jean Monnet Lecture" as a phased summary of nearly 30 years of work, study and life in China. Many Westerners think that living in China is a great challenge, which I don't deny, but besides the challenge, I also see the necessity of change, and change can only be realized through contact and communication. There should be more European scholars in China, and China should also become an urgent topic for every German university to discuss.
欧盟委员会2020年在全球范围内授予了70个让·莫内教席，且每所大学最多可获一个名额。中国境内大学上次获得还是在2016年。“让·莫内讲席教授”传统上主要关注欧盟相关研究。现在欧盟委员会把这个奖项授予在中国任教的德国汉学家，这说明欧盟委员会已经认识到批判性地对比其它国家和欧盟发展模式的重要性。
In 2020, the European Commission awarded 70 Jean Monnet chairs worldwide, and each university can get up to one place. The last time universities in China won it was in 2016. Traditionally, "Professor Jean Monnet" mainly focuses on EU-related research. Now the European Commission has awarded this award to German sinologists who teach in China, which shows that the European Commission has realized the importance of critically comparing the development models of other countries with those of the European Union.
我不想把欧盟在中国的表现作为中国的反面典型，而是用批判性的眼光看待。中国学生正是通过批判性思维树立价值观。我曾做过调查，结果显示，很多中国学生认为欧盟的政治一体化还没有成功，英国脱欧反映了欧盟的软弱，但我想传达的知识是，欧盟已经在运作了，只是方式不同而已：即追求的不是快速而精干的决策过程，而是等待、讨论、参与和妥协。
I don't want to take the EU's performance in China as a negative example of China, but look at it critically. It is through critical thinking that Chinese students establish values. I have done a survey, and the results show that many Chinese students think that the political integration of the EU has not been successful, and Brexit reflects the weakness of the EU, but the knowledge I want to convey is that the EU is already in operation, only in different ways: it is not a fast and lean decision-making process, but waiting, discussing, participating and compromising.
同时，英国脱欧正表明欧盟每个成员都有随时离开的自由，这被视为一种成就。所以欧洲未必比中国差，只是不同而已。而当中国学生乐于接受不同的时候，他们的个性就会得到发展，成熟起来，适合国际就业市场。因此，我很鼓励学生去欧洲交换学习一两个学期。
At the same time, Brexit shows that every EU member has the freedom to leave at any time, which is regarded as an achievement. Therefore, Europe is not necessarily worse than China, it is just different. When Chinese students are willing to accept differences, their personalities will develop and mature, which is suitable for the international job market. Therefore, I encourage students to go to Europe for exchange study for one or two semesters.
申请“让·莫内讲席”项目时，我就在材料中表明该项目的落脚点在于中国和欧洲的比较，课题还囊括不同的教育体系、社会各领域的数字化以及对数据隐私的保护。通过该项目，我会推荐几名德国同事来中国短期或者长期工作，也会推荐中国同事去欧洲短期访学。并针对该项目，设置课程专题对比中欧近来的对外政策，以期激励中国塑造更加完整的海外形象。
When applying for the "Jean Monnet Lecture" project, I indicated in the materials that the foothold of the project lies in the comparison between China and Europe, and the topic also includes different education systems, digitalization in various fields of society and protection of data privacy. Through this project, I will recommend several German colleagues to work in China for a short or long time, and I will also recommend Chinese colleagues to visit Europe for a short time. In view of this project, a course topic is set up to compare the recent foreign policies of China and Europe, in order to encourage China to shape a more complete overseas image.

=2 《红楼梦》首次全译本=
2.您的代表作是《红楼梦》德语全译本，您是如何走上汉学之路的呢？可否谈谈与史华慈合译《红楼梦》的初衷？How did you begin to learn Chinese and how to stick to the path of sinology for so many years? Why did you choose to translate 红楼梦？
《红楼梦》的意义大于个人，是一件永恒的艺术品，应该提升到“世界遗产”的地位。目前，欧洲只有半数国家出版《红楼梦》译本。1989年我刚上大学的时候，德文版《红楼梦》也只有弗兰茨-库恩的节译本，共40章，只有原文体量的三分之一。与库恩的其他中国优秀小说译本在语言上几乎没有差别，带有浓厚的德国地方色彩。我也注意到了译文的不足之处。他把《红楼梦》书名中的“楼”翻译成“城堡”。这种译法也许比较适合欧洲读者的阅读口味，但就中国文化、中国历史、中国环境而言，我认为不太准确。这些不足之处也可解释为什么大卫-霍克斯和约翰-闵福德的译本在德国广受欢迎。
A Dream of Red Mansions is more meaningful than an individual. It is an eternal work of art and should be promoted to the status of "World Heritage". At present, only half of European countries have translated a Dream of Red Mansions. When I first went to college in 1989, the German version of a Dream of Red Mansions was only a flantz-Kuhn excerpt, with a total of 40 chapters, only one third of the original volume. There is almost no difference in language with Kuhn's other excellent Chinese novel translations, with strong German local color. I also noticed the shortcomings of the translation. He translated "Lou" in the title of A Dream of Red Mansions into "Castle". This translation may be more suitable for European readers, but I don't think it is accurate in terms of Chinese culture, Chinese history and Chinese environment. These shortcomings can also explain why the translations of David Hawkes and John Minford are so popular in Germany.
XX年/契机我开始重新翻译《红楼梦》。也是通过这个项目，我申请到了北京大学德意志学术交流中心（Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst，简称DAAD）奖学金。因此我也得以在北京大学学习X个月。[When did you study in Peking University? And for how long?]当时的选拔委员会主席是沃尔夫冈·顾彬（Wolfgang Kubin，中文名顾彬），他后来成为我的博士生导师之一。随后在北京，我多次参观了红楼梦研究所。参观之时张#送给我一本《红楼梦》辞典。后来回到德国，我与马汉茂（Helmut Martin）合作。从他那里我了解到，史华慈（Rainer Schwarz）已经将小说前80章翻译出来，并将自己的译文交给他出版，马汉茂让我审阅了史华兹的译本。不过译文暂未达到出版质量，[Can you give more details of why it can not be published yet? ]还需修订。
XX Year/Opportunity I began to retranslate A Dream of Red Mansions. It was also through this project that I applied for a scholarship from Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst (DAAD) of Peking University. So I was able to study at Peking University for X months. At that time, the chairman of the selection committee was Wolfgang Kubin (Chinese name Gu Bin), who later became one of my doctoral supervisors. Later in Beijing, I visited the Dream of Red Mansions Research Institute many times. During the visit, Zhang # gave me a dictionary of a Dream of Red Mansions. Later, when I returned to Germany, I cooperated with Helmut Martin. I learned from him that Rainer Schwarz had translated the first 80 chapters of the novel and gave him his own translation for publication. Ma Hanmao asked me to review Schwartz's translation. However, the translation has not yet reached the publishing quality and needs to be revised.
这次翻译尝试于我而言具有重大意义，我认为修改史华兹的译本使其达到出版水平比自己独立完成120章的翻译更重要。我花了几年时间修订史华兹的译文，随后自己翻译了后40回。然后按照前80回的风格重新修改我翻译的后40回，其中人名的翻译统一采用正式的拼音系统及其拼写方法，且并非采用标准的汉语拼音，而是按照德语书写方式，这样做的目的是尽可能地吸引更多读者的关注，且避免读者出现行文风格“跳脱”感受。
This translation attempt is of great significance to me. I think it is more important to revise Schwartz's translation to the publishing level than to complete the translation of 120 chapters independently. It took me several years to revise Schwartz's translation, and then I translated the last 40 times myself. Then I revised the last 40 times of my translation according to the style of the first 80 times, Among them, the translation of names adopts the formal Pinyin system and its spelling method, and does not adopt the standard Chinese Pinyin, but according to the German writing method. The purpose of this is to attract more readers' attention as much as possible, and to avoid readers' feeling of "jumping" in writing style.
现在，读者可获得完整、精细的译本，译本必要处附有注释。之后在XX年X月[When will the fifth edition be published? ]会出版第五版，该版本会根据读者意见和自己对原文的重新理解再进行改进。比如在我未出版的120章全译本中，很多人名的翻译也考虑到了名字的中文含义。[What amendments will you make in the fifth edition of the Chamber? Could you please list some? ]
Now, readers can get a complete and detailed translation, with notes where necessary. Then [when will the fifth edition be published? ] will publish the fifth edition, which will be improved according to readers' opinions and their own re-understanding of the original text. For example, in my unpublished full translation of 120 chapters, the translation of many names also takes into account the Chinese meaning of names. [What amendments will you make in the fifth edition of the Chamber? Could you please list some? ]

=3 欧洲红学=
3.您曾在国内红学权威刊物《红楼梦学刊》上发表过两篇文章，以德国人的视角叙述西方对《红楼梦》的了解，并介绍德译本情况以及西方学者的理解及评价。从这两篇文章可以看出，《红楼梦》在西方的传播已变换形式，由文本本身的传播向舞台剧等多模态形态发展。请问现今欧洲的红学研究、传播现状如何？您认为《红楼梦》对国内外读者有何影响？

小说是“时代精神”的体现。《红楼梦》于1791年首次出版，其创作背景是中国少数民族之一的满族统治下的清朝，曹家或受康熙宠信或备受雍正冷落以致抄家没落。囿于时代背景，作者在当时无法公开批判帝制皇权，但在小说中，他在家庭日益衰败（从事道教、闲暇、诗歌创作、艺术和音乐，而不是为了能够谋生而学习）和自己没有实现作为家族继承人的期望中，寻求被迫害的根源。这种对名家望族没落之路的描写使我们想起了契诃夫的小说。此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的纪实性历史小说《铁皮鼓》(1959年)非常相似。最值得一提的是《红楼梦》和托马斯·曼的《布登勃洛克一家》（1901年）。两部小说都描写了出生富贵的年轻一代人的颓废、没落、溃散，以及一个家族的社会地位和经济状况的逐渐没落与覆灭。托马斯·曼的小说是以资产阶级社会的巨大变革为背景，而曹雪芹的作品则选取了某个朝代的更迭时期作为时代背景，在其中帝王利益与家族利益发生了冲突! 有趣的是，两部作品中的主要角色都挑选了英年早逝的类似人物。《红楼梦》里林黛玉为情而亡，秦可卿因乱伦自尽，贾元春和妙玉也是突然死亡。在《布登勃洛克一家》里克拉拉在婚后不久即死于脑结核，托马斯在牙科手术后去世，汉诺死于伤寒。两部作品都在结构和主题上运用了影射等大量的艺术手法，以丰富的故事进展描绘出一幅衰败的景象。因此，这种并行发展令人惊讶，很难说《布登勃洛克一家》的创作没受到《红楼梦》的影响。
The novel is the embodiment of "the spirit of the times". A Dream of Red Mansions was first published in 1791. Its creation background was the Qing Dynasty under the rule of Manchu, one of China's ethnic minorities. The Cao family was either favored by Kangxi or neglected by Yongzheng, resulting in the decline of property ownership. Constrained by the background of the times, the author could not publicly criticize the imperial power at that time, but in the novel, he sought the root of persecution in the declining family (engaged in Taoism, leisure, poetry creation, art and music, instead of studying in order to make a living) and his failure to realize his expectation of being the heir of the family. This decadent description of declining families reminds us of Chekhov's novels. In addition, the detailed description of the life of all social strata in the early Qing Dynasty in A Dream of Red Mansions is very similar to Gunter Grass's documentary historical novel Tin Drum (1959). The most noteworthy ones are A Dream of Red Mansions and Thomas Mann's Budenbrock Family (1901). Both novels describe the decadence, decline and collapse of the wealthy young generation, as well as the gradual decline and collapse of a family's social status and economic situation. Thomas Mann's novels are set against the background of great changes in bourgeois society, while Cao Xueqin's works choose the change period of a certain dynasty as the background of the times, in which the interests of emperors and families conflict! Interestingly, the main characters in the two works have chosen similar characters who died young. In a Dream of Red Mansions, Lin Daiyu died of love, Qin Keqing committed suicide due to incest, and Jia Yuanchun and Miaoyu also died suddenly. In the Budenbrock Family, Clara died of brain tuberculosis shortly after marriage, Thomas died after dental surgery, and Hanno died of typhoid fever. Both works use a lot of artistic techniques such as innuendo in structure and theme, and depict a declining scene with rich story progress. Therefore, this parallel development is surprising. It is hard to say that the creation of the Budenbroc Family was not influenced by a Dream of Red Mansions.

4.您曾在欧洲多所学校任教，请问现今欧洲汉学的研究状况如何？
You have taught in many European schools. What is the current research status of Sinology in Europe?

=5 为何从古典文学的翻译转向中国现当代文学的翻译？=
除了《红楼梦》这一代表译作之外，您还翻译了包括鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱锺书、韩少功、贾平凹等在内的一批著名作家的优秀作品。可否谈谈为什么选择不同时代作家的作品？您又是如何再现他们不同的写作风格？
[This question intends to know about why you choose to translate works of those writers. Is it because of personal interests or the publisher asking you to do so?
I think the section of Xu Zechen serves as good interview answers. As Chinese readers, we are desperate to know what things are like from Westerners’ perspective. ]

为何从古典文学的翻译转向中国现当代文学的翻译？
Why did you shift from the translation of classical literature to the translation of modern and contemporary Chinese literature?
不同时代的作品反映出不同的时代背景，这些作品对我个人而言是很好的窗口，可以窥探不同时期中国的社会面貌，还可与同期的欧洲文学进行比较。贾平凹作为20世纪80年代以来中国最伟大的作家之一，英译本很少。究其原因，首先在于他的作品植根于山西农村，带有浓重的地域风俗习惯。首先读懂原文对译者来说就是一项挑战，更不用提在译入语中找到对应的表达。我在翻译贾平凹的XX中就遇到了这个问题。。。。。。。。[Can you list some difficulties when translating Jia Pingwa’s or any other author’s works? We like the details.]
The works of different times reflect different backgrounds of the times. These works are a good window for me personally. I can spy on the social outlook of China in different periods and compare them with European literature in the same period. Jia Pingwa, as one of the greatest writers in China since 1980s, has few English versions. The reason lies in the fact that his works are rooted in Shanxi rural areas and have strong regional customs. It is a challenge for translators to understand the original text first, not to mention finding the corresponding expression in the target language. I encountered this problem in translating Jia Pingwa's XX. . . . . . . .

对于译者来说，翻译不同作者的作品时面对的翻译难点不同。而不同的译者有着不同的处理方式，这也能解释为何同一部作品有几个翻译版本，且翻译策略各有不同。我深知译者的文化背景对译本翻译策略的选择有很大影响，所以有些作品即便存在译本，我还是选择重新翻译。从鲁迅的短篇小说中，我们可以读出作者内心的矛盾：文学能改变世界吗？难道一定要身体力行才能改变世界吗？难道连唤醒那些像阿Q一样任由自己被牵着走，任人宰割的昏昏欲睡的同胞们也能做到吗？当无法改变自己和社会的命运时，唤醒他们还有什么用呢？作为译者，我们如何再现这种矛盾心理，如何处理鲁迅在翻译中有些古板的早期白话，如何与他对日常政治事件的论述。这些都是翻译中必不可免的问题。目前已有的鲁迅作品德译本在这些方面的处理方式多样。巴金在受到批评后修改了三部曲之一的《家》，删除了缠足现象。在翻译这部作品的过程中，译者必须决定是翻译原版还是删减后的版本。
For translators, translation difficulties are different when translating works of different authors. Different translators have different ways of dealing with it, which can explain why there are several translated versions of the same work and the translation strategies are different. I know that the translator's cultural background has a great influence on the choice of translation strategies, so I choose to retranslate some works even if there are translations. From Lu Xun's short stories, we can read the author's inner contradiction: Can literature change the world? Do you have to practice to change the world? Can we even wake up those sleepy compatriots who let themselves be led and slaughtered like Ah Q? What's the use of awakening them when they can't change their own destiny and that of society? As translators, how do we reproduce this ambivalence, how do we deal with Lu Xun's rigid early vernacular in translation, and how do we communicate with his exposition of daily political events? These are all inevitable problems in translation. At present, the existing German versions of Lu Xun's works deal with these aspects in various ways. After being criticized, Ba Jin revised Home, one of the trilogy, and deleted foot binding. In the process of translating this work, the translator must decide whether to translate the original version or the abridged version.

我个人很喜欢徐则臣的作品。在2009年（北上2015年才出版）[Is this book called <北上>？]的法兰克福书展上，他的故事《北上》受到广泛好评。事实上，他的生活经历与我有些重叠部分。我们都在北京大学学习过，只不过他比我早入学一点（多久）。当时校园里有一种亚文化，博士生们住在餐厅旁边的闲置房间里，因为他们对大学里的人、办事流程了如指掌，而且在独立的诗歌和艺术界也有联系，所以每逢有聚会，他们都很抢手，大家竞相邀请他们参加聚会。那时的大学涌现着一股乐观主义的精神，起初门外涌现出私营商业市场，后来校园里传出“开公司”的口号。那时，毕业生不愿毕业就被分入特定的工作岗位，身上的自由和责任感促使他们闯一闯这个世界。故事里拿着盗版产品的街边小贩和软件开发产品的学生先锋也是这幅画的一部分。徐则臣将这种气氛真实地捕捉到，令人信服。他笔下的人物在我们心上扎根，爱上他们，学会在生活中打拼。也是这种情感体验上的共鸣促使我翻译《北上》这部作品。
Personally, I like Xu Zechen's works very much. At the Frankfurt Book Fair in 2009 (published in 2015), his story "Going North" was widely praised. In fact, his life experience overlaps with mine. We all studied at Peking University, but he entered school a little earlier than me. At that time, there was a subculture on campus. Doctoral students lived in idle rooms next to restaurants. Because they knew the people and procedures in the university like the back of their hand, and they also had contacts in independent poetry and art circles, they were very popular whenever there was a party, and everyone invited them to attend the party. At that time, there was a spirit of optimism in universities. At first, private commercial markets emerged outside the doors. Later, the slogan of "starting a company" came out on campus. At that time, graduates were assigned to specific jobs without graduating, and their freedom and sense of responsibility prompted them to enter the world. Street vendors with pirated products and student pioneers with software development products in the story are also part of this painting. Xu Zechen captured this atmosphere truly and convincingly. His characters take root in our hearts, fall in love with them and learn to work hard in life. It is also this resonance in emotional experience that prompted me to translate the work "North".

=6 跨文化身份=
6. 作为汉学家和翻译家，您的跨文化身份让你置身于东西方文明之间。当您从欧洲文化和文学背景来到中国的文化和文学背景中，在两种迥异的语言之间进行转换，是否感到自己的思维方式和行文风格发生了些许改变？[This question asks you whether living in China for almost eight years affects your translating ideologies? Is there any difference if you only learned Chinese but never lived in China for such a long time? ]

=7 中西合璧=
有人认为中华文化走出去最好的译介模式是“中西合璧”，如葛浩文和林丽君的译作在国内外产生了较大影响。您对此有何看法？[I think this answer is rather insufficient. ]
什么是理想的译者？韦努蒂认为译者应该是隐身的，看不见的。如果读者没有注意到所读文本是一个译本，那么译者就达到了完美的境界。我认为，原语文化的译者在理解原文上的确更占优势，但是在传达上就不如来自目标语文化的译者，只有这样的译者才能向目标读者传达想要传达的形象。已经掌握了两种文化和语言的人来做译者是最合适不过的。当然，如果译者本身就是作家就更好了，这样翻译出来的译文想必更贴近原作。
What is an ideal translator? Venuti believes that translators should be invisible and invisible. If the reader doesn't notice that the text he reads is a translation, then the translator has reached a perfect state. In my opinion, the translator of the source language culture does have an advantage in understanding the original text, but he is not as good as the translator from the target language culture in conveying it. Only in this way can the translator convey the image he wants to convey to the target readers. People who have mastered both cultures and languages are the most suitable translators. Of course, it would be better if the translator himself was a writer, so the translated version must be closer to the original.
译文总是一种新的创造，它在文字上不能再模仿原文，而在功能、效果等方面却可以再现原文的特点，所以葛浩文和林丽君这样的“中西合璧”的组合在翻译极具中国特色的作品时应该会比较合适。
Translation is always a new creation. It can no longer imitate the original text in words, but can reproduce the characteristics of the original text in terms of function and effect. Therefore, the combination of "Chinese and Western combination" such as Ge Haowen and Lin Lijun should be more appropriate when translating works with Chinese characteristics.

=8 中华文化外译传播=
8. 根据您的实践经验和理性思考，中华文化外译传播有哪些成功因素?
首先，对于普通读者而言，接受《红楼梦》第一步就必须有可读的译本，因此《红楼梦》在其它没有译本的国家的传播有赖于译者的工作。我认为等待引进不如主动输出。这样成功的例子不是没有。20世纪80年代，杨宪益倡议出版熊猫丛书，意在向国外译介中国当代、现代和古代的优秀作品，所出版的杂志和从书在国外有相当大的影响，几乎成为很长时期内国外研究中国汉学、对中国文学有兴趣的人了解中国文学的唯一的窗口。因此，中国相关机构可借鉴当时的经验，在还没有译本的欧洲国家作出尝试。
First of all, for ordinary readers, the first step to accept a Dream of Red Mansions is to have a readable translation, so the dissemination of a Dream of Red Mansions in other countries without a translation depends on the translator's work. I think it is better to take the initiative to export than to wait for import. There are not no such successful examples. In 1980s, Yang Xianyi initiated the publication of Panda Series, aiming at translating and introducing excellent works of contemporary, modern and ancient China to foreign countries. The published magazines and books have a considerable influence abroad, and have almost become the only window for people who study Chinese Sinology abroad and are interested in Chinese literature to understand Chinese literature for a long time. Therefore, relevant Chinese institutions can learn from the experience at that time and try in European countries that have not yet translated them.
其次，西方尤其是美国的《红楼梦》研究开始用现代理论解读《红楼梦》，如 “感觉”、“同性恋”等。因此在每隔几年举办一次的红学会议上，整理以前的研究，撰写一部西方学术界与小说接触史就显得十分重要。
Secondly, the study of "A Dream of Red Mansions" in the West, especially in the United States, began to interpret "A Dream of Red Mansions" with modern theories, such as "feeling" and "homosexuality". Therefore, it is very important to sort out the previous research and write a history of contact between western academic circles and novels at the Redology Conference held every few years.
我很早就开始关注《红楼梦》在西方的接受情况。其刚进入西方世界之时并不是一片叫好，直至被列为世界文学的一部分，这一过程持续了很多年。一方面是因为完整的译本直至XX年才出现，另一方面是因为许多西方汉学家和译者的民族中心主义世界观，他们认为只有本土的文学才称得上世界文学，而对别国文学视若无睹。在我看来，跨越时间空间，对优秀作品的认同还是同样的，因此《红楼梦》应该成为世界文化遗产。
I began to pay attention to the acceptance of A Dream of Red Mansions in the West very early. When it first entered the western world, it was not applauded until it was listed as a part of world literature, which lasted for many years. On the one hand, the complete translation did not appear until XX years; On the other hand, it is because many western sinologists and translators have an ethnocentric world outlook. They think that only local literature can be called world literature and turn a blind eye to other countries' literature. In my opinion, across time and space, the recognition of excellent works is the same, so A Dream of Red Mansions should become a world cultural heritage.
最后，中国文化作品的译介研究不能仅仅依靠本土研究者、译者，还需要目标语国家的同人鼎力相助。就《红楼梦》而言，对其翻译的研究不在少数，但遗憾的是，其中研究者多为中国学者，他们研究时没有与本土学者交流。但我认为，为了提升学术质量，中国学者的学术成果在发表前应由本土学者审查。无论如何，无论在中国还是在西方，一个新的领域就是小说的跨文化研究。
Finally, the translation and introduction of Chinese cultural works can not only rely on local researchers and translators, but also need the full help of colleagues in the target language countries. As far as A Dream of Red Mansions is concerned, there are not a few studies on its translation, but unfortunately, most of the researchers are Chinese scholars, and they did not communicate with local scholars during their research. However, I think that in order to improve the academic quality, the academic achievements of Chinese scholars should be reviewed by local scholars before publication. In any case, whether in China or in the West, a new field is the cross-cultural study of novels.

=9 提建议=
您自1990年代来华留学，在华生活多年。作为中西文化的“摆渡人”，您是如何坚持翻译中国经典著作的？您对中德文化交流的未来发展前景有何预见？[What is the future of China-Germany Exchange in your opinion? ]是否可以给年青一代的汉学家、翻译家提出一些建议？
题中的“摆渡人”形象很好，“摆渡人”的形象历来是正面的，在欧洲也是俗称的“好听话”，这也是世界文学中的典型主题。在近5000年前（公元前2600年）的文学作品《吉尔伽美什史诗》就讲述了摆渡人乌尔-萨纳比带国王渡过死亡之水的故事。摆渡人是两个世界的纽带，起着至关重要的作用。其实，译者本身就是一个“摆渡人”，他/她将作者的思想境界、梦境、想象告诉读者，把读者带入目标语环境之中。
The image of "ferryman" in the title is very good. The image of "ferryman" has always been positive. It is also commonly known as "good obedience" in Europe, which is also a typical theme in world literature. Nearly 5,000 years ago (2600 BC), the literary work "Gilgamesh Epic" tells the story of ferryman Ur Sanabi who took the king through the water of death. The ferryman is the link between the two worlds and plays a vital role. In fact, the translator himself is a "ferryman". He/she tells the reader the author's ideological realm, dreams and imagination, and brings the reader into the target language environment.
学生时代时我就发现，中国学生都知道歌德、莎士比亚、海涅，而西方几乎没有人知道屈原、李白、苏东坡、曹雪芹，对此我感到非常震惊。尽管翻译工作在西方不被视为学术研究，没有受到高度重视，但我个人把中国文学作品，特别是名著和经典作品翻译成德文看作毕生的事业。我还在德国维藤建立了一个翻译工作坊，专门鼓励年轻一代的毕业生，为他们争取翻译项目，通常是将中国文学作品译成德语和英语，目前已经翻译出了。。。。。。。。[What translations have been published/done in your translation workshop in Germany? ]
When I was a student, I found that Chinese students all knew Goethe, Shakespeare and Heine, while almost no one in the West knew Qu Yuan, Li Bai, Su Dongpo and Cao Xueqin. I was very shocked. Although translation is not regarded as an academic research in the West and is not highly valued, I personally regard the translation of Chinese literary works, especially famous works and classic works, into German as a lifelong career. I also set up a translation workshop in Witten, Germany, to encourage the younger generation of graduates and strive for translation projects for them. Usually, Chinese literary works are translated into German and English, which have already been translated. . . . . . . .
当然，从翻译的本质上来说，这是一项语言服务。没有这种服务，研究就无法实现。多了解中国文化，对德国文化没有坏处。而德国民众通常不懂中文，因此通过翻译获得资讯似乎是唯一方式。不过对于专业从事中国文学创作的人来说，当然建议掌握汉语能力，因为读原著永远比读译著更真实。
Of course, translation is essentially a language service. Without this service, research cannot be realized. Knowing more about Chinese culture will do no harm to German culture. German people usually don't understand Chinese, so getting information through translation seems to be the only way. However, for those who specialize in Chinese literary creation, it is of course recommended to master Chinese ability, because reading the original works is always more authentic than reading the translated works.
10. 作为世界汉学研究会会长，您组织了多场与汉学相关的国际会议，包括一年一度的世界汉学研究大会（WACS），持续向世界展示中华文化的魅力。您既是译者，又是研究者，您如何看待这两个身份之间的转换？您对从事译研结合的学者有何建议吗？
在西方，学者的地位普遍高于译者。不过，就我而言，译者的工作还是很重要的，因为科学有赖于源头的发展（The work of the translator is nevertheless important, since science depends on the development of sources.）。最重要的是，如果没有翻译，大众就无法认识和了解外国语言与文化。因此，我既做翻译，也做学术研究，一方面是有时在翻译的过程中发现某个学术研究的选题或者已有选题再翻译中找到了一个突破点；另一方面，有时做学术研究需要阅读一些中国文学作品，但发现并没有德译本，所以干脆自己动手翻译。
In the West, the status of scholars is generally higher than that of translators. However, as far as I am concerned, the translator's work is still very important, because science depends on the development of the source. Most importantly, without translation, the public cannot know and understand foreign languages and cultures. Therefore, I do both translation and academic research; On the one hand, I sometimes find a breakthrough point in the process of translation when I find a topic of an academic research or in the re-translation of an existing topic; On the other hand, sometimes it is necessary to read some Chinese literary works for academic research, but it is found that there is no German translation, so I simply translate it myself.
翻译批评现在在中国是比较热门的学术研究方向，拿《红楼梦》为例。我个人认为，做相关翻译批评的学者首先自己也应该是作家，有自己的代表作，或者翻译过一定的作品。此外，做翻译批评时最好将对象锁定为译本语言是母语的作品。如果一个人对自己的源语言掌握得很好，就能够分辨出字里行间的引申义和细微的差别，更好地评估选词、文体等是否得当。但可惜的是，中国红学届或者翻译学届几乎没有人具备这样的条件。
Translation criticism is now a popular academic research direction in China. Take a Dream of Red Mansions as an example. Personally, I think that scholars who do relevant translation criticism should first be writers themselves, have their own representative works, or have translated certain works. In addition, when making translation criticism, it is best to target works whose translation language is the mother tongue. If a person has a good grasp of his source language, he can distinguish the extended meaning and subtle differences between the lines, and better evaluate whether the choice of words and styles are appropriate. However, unfortunately, few people in the Chinese Redology or Translation Studies have such conditions.
我每年邀请100多位学术届同仁讲授他们各自领域的知识，主要是觉得做学问贵在终身学习。可以通过课程和会议间隙的讨论拓宽视野，有时不同领域的知识可以提供更广阔的研究视角。
Every year, I invite more than 100 academic colleagues to teach their knowledge in their respective fields, mainly because I think lifelong learning is the most important thing in learning. The horizon can be broadened through discussions between courses and conferences, and sometimes knowledge in different fields can provide a broader research perspective.
另外，我还建议做翻译的同仁一定要去原语/目标语国家生活一段时间。截至目前，我在中国生活了八年，每隔一段时间，新的表达方式都会扑面而来，每天都在学习，自然对我研究和翻译都有帮助。
In addition, I also suggest that colleagues who do translation must live in the source/target language countries for a period of time. Up to now, I have lived in China for eight years. Every once in a while, new expressions come to me and I study every day. Naturally, it is helpful for my research and translation.

=11 国际汉学中心=
11. 您是湖南师范大学“潇湘学者”特聘教授，并担任国际汉学中心主任。请问：该中心主要从事工作？您未来计划开展哪些项目推动中德文化交流？
国际汉学研究中心是国内国学与海外汉学研究的桥梁。来自世界各地、不同背景的学者，可以依托这个平台进行交流合作。我们从香港引进了来自美国的Margaret Chu，她在2021年初刚被聘为澳门科技大学副教授。她作为中心的兼职高级研究员，负责联系各国学者，评估和审阅中心的研究成果。朱女士还负责引进了许多同仁，包括来自牛津、加州和马萨诸塞州的同仁。另外，四位来自德国的学者已经被聘为外国语学院教授，其中两名也将加盟国际汉学研究中心。来自卡尔斯鲁厄的哲学家Ole Döring和来自杜塞尔多夫的历史学家Cord Eberspächer，他曾在那里担任孔子学院院长。中心的研究员正在共同构思编写《中国研究史》，包括有一卷总论和十卷单行本，该书预计将以英文、德文和中文同时出版。除此以外，中心正在研究四大名著，特别是《红楼梦》在西方的参与史。中心还正在积极翻译中国现当代文学作品和政治文献。
The International Sinology Research Center is a bridge between domestic Sinology and overseas Sinology research. Scholars from all over the world and from different backgrounds can rely on this platform for exchanges and cooperation. We introduced Margaret Chu from the United States from Hong Kong. She was just hired as an associate professor at Macau University of Science and Technology in early 2021. As a part-time senior researcher of the Center, she is responsible for contacting scholars from all over the world to evaluate and review the research results of the Center. Ms Zhu is also responsible for bringing in many colleagues, including colleagues from Oxford, California and Massachusetts. In addition, four scholars from Germany have been hired as professors of the Foreign Languages Institute, and two of them will join the International Sinology Research Center. Ole D ö ring, a philosopher from Karlsruhe, and Cord Ebersp ä cher, a historian from D ü sseldorf, where he served as the dean of Confucius Institute. Researchers at the Center are jointly conceiving the compilation of "History of Chinese Studies", including a general book and ten singles, which is expected to be published in English, German and Chinese at the same time. In addition, the center is studying the participation history of Four Great Classical Novels, especially A Dream of Red Mansions in the West. The Center is also actively translating modern and contemporary Chinese literary works and political documents.

=12. 结语=
12. 我们非常感佩您对中华文化的热爱、对推动中德文化交流做出的突出贡献！再次感谢您接受我的访问！祝您多结学术硕果！
谢谢你！的确，通过文化交往把人们团结起来，这是我们这个时代最重要的任务之一。许多国家都以自己的文化为荣。可是，没有任何一种文化逊色于其它文化，每种文化都有其独特的魅力，促进我们作为个人和整个人类的发展。我作为一个德国人，爱上了中国文化。如果其它国家的人也爱上了中国文化，中国人爱上了其它国家的文化，那么可以想见，整个人类文化必将绽放。这样，人们就能实现尊重和宽容。
Thank you! Indeed, uniting people through cultural exchanges is one of the most important tasks of our time. Many countries are proud of their own culture. However, no culture is inferior to other cultures, and each culture has its own unique charm, which promotes our development as individuals and as human beings as a whole. As a German, I fell in love with Chinese culture. If people from other countries also fall in love with Chinese culture and Chinese people fall in love with other countries' cultures, it is conceivable that the whole human culture will bloom. In this way, people can achieve respect and tolerance.

=12. 《红楼梦》跟今天国内外的读者有什么关系？=

Woesler: The novel is an embodiment of “Zeitgeist”.

吴漠汀：小说作为 "时代精神 "的体现。

According to Georg Lukács’ Theory of the Novel, while the Epos (like Homer’s Ilias, which like the Dream reasons the stories in the divine realm) displayed a holistic world experience, a complete, self-contained culture, the novel displays, that the modern world has become infinitely large and has lost its homely quality.

根据格奥尔格-卢卡奇的小说理论，虽然Epos（像荷马的伊利亚斯，它像梦理由神界的故事）展示了一个整体的世界经验，一个完整的，自足的文化，小说展示，现代世界已经变得无限大，已经失去了它的家的品质。

The novel as a genre is no longer documenting just one culture, but represents, with the words of Walter Benjamin, the Organon of History. So the understanding of the novel changed with Lukacs to historical-philosophically. A novel is understood as typical for its historical era, the novel embodies the spirit of the epoch (Zeitgeist).

小说作为一种文体，不再只是记录一种文化，而是用瓦尔特-本雅明的话说，代表了历史的有机体。所以，对小说的理解随着卢卡奇的改变，变成了历史哲学的理解。小说被理解为其历史时代的典型，小说体现了时代精神（Zeitgeist）。

The Red Chamber Dreams are written in front of the background of the Manchu minority having taken over the power in formerly Han-shaped Ming-China (which was a multi-ethnic and crosscultural society) and families suffering the changing favor of changing emperors, with the Cao family being fostered by Kangxi and being persecuted by Yongzheng.

《红楼梦》写的是满族少数民族在原汉字形的明中国（这是一个多民族、跨文化的社会）掌握了政权，家庭遭受换代皇帝的宠爱，曹家被康熙扶植，被雍正迫害的背景前。

While the author in his time could not criticize the system and power of emperors, in the novel he came to terms with this life by seeking the guilt for the persecution in the growing decadence of the family (engaging in Daoism, leisure, poetry-writing, arts and music instead of learning for being able to earn a living) and in himself not fulfilling the expectations as the family heir. This description of decadence of a declining family reminds us of the novels of Tschechov (and e.g. in the Buddenbrooks by Mann, including the turn to arts and music).

虽然作者在他的时代无法批判帝制和皇权，但在小说中，他为家族的日益衰败（参加道教、娱乐、诗歌、艺术和音乐活动，而不是为了谋生而学习）和自己作为家族继承人没有实现家族期望感到自责，通过这样做，他也对这种生活做妥协。这种对没落家族颓废状况的描写，让我们想起了契诃夫的小说（如曼恩的《布登布鲁克》，包括对艺术和音乐的转向）

Moreover, with the detailed description of life on all social levels in early Qing Dynasty, the Dream appears as a documentary historical novel very much like Günter Grass’ The Tin Drum 1959.

此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的《铁皮鼓1959》非常相似，《铁皮鼓1959》是一部纪实历史小说。

=13 中德文化交流=
我们非常感佩您对中华文化的热爱、对推动中德文化交流做出的突出贡献！再次感谢您接受我的访问！祝您多结学术硕果！

Woesler: Thank you very much! Indeed, I see it as one of the most important tasks of our time to bring people together. Many nations are proud of their culture. By now we know that no culture is better or worse than another. But it is fascinating, and it promotes our development as individuals and as humanity as a whole, to know about the different cultures. If, like me as a German, Chinese people fall in love with Chinese culture, and all over the world Chinese people fall in love with other cultures, and members of other cultures fall in love with Chinese culture, this leads to an enrichment and blossoming of human culture as a whole. In this way, people can realize the best that is within them: Respect and tolerance.

吴漠汀：非常感谢你! 的确，我认为这是我们这个时代最重要的任务之一，就是把人们团结起来。许多国家都以自己的文化为荣。现在我们知道，没有任何一种文化比另一种文化更好或更差。但它是迷人的，它能促进我们作为个人和整个人类的发展，了解不同的文化。当像我这个德国人一样，中国人爱上了中国文化，全世界的中国人爱上了其他文化，其他文化的成员爱上了中国文化，这就导致了整个人类文化的丰富和绽放。这样，人们才能实现自己内心的最佳状态：尊重和宽容。

NOTES：
美国汉学家白亚仁谈中国小说在英美的翻译与传播*

□ 受访人：［美］白亚仁（Allan H. Barr)
采访人：杨平

访谈按语：白亚仁（Allan H. Barr），1954 年 4 月出生于加拿大，1977 年获得剑桥大学东方研究学士学位，1983 年获得牛津大学中国文学专业博士学位。现任美国波摩纳学院（Pomona College）亚洲语言文学系教授。早期主要从事中国古典文学尤其是明清小说的研究；目前主要从事中国当代文学的译介，翻译了余华的《在细雨中呼喊》《十个词汇里的中国》《黄昏里的男孩》《第七天》等作品，并编译了韩寒的
《这一代》。
2017 年 12 月 20 日，白亚仁教授应邀来浙江外国语学院进行学术讲座，期间笔者对他进行了访谈，就白教授与中国文化的因缘、对《聊斋志异》的研究、对余华作品的翻译，及中国文学的海外传播等话题进行了愉快的交流。
中图分类号：H059 doi:10.19326/j.cnki.2095-9257.2019.04.002

杨平（下文简称“ 杨”）：白教授您好！非常感谢您接受我的采访。您是著名的汉学家，也是中国文学研究和翻译的专家，尤其是在明清小说家蒲松龄及其《聊斋志异》的研究方面和中国当代文学的翻译方面卓有成就。首先我想问一下，您当初为什么选择学习中文，研究、翻译中国文学？
白亚仁（下文简称“ 白”）：我想家庭背景有一定的影响。我父母都研究外语，他们都在爱丁堡大学（University of Edinburgh）学习古典文学、希腊语和拉丁语。我父亲研究希伯来语，是《圣经》语言研究专家，也研究其他一些中东语言；我母亲后来在中学教拉丁语和希腊语。我姐姐在大学学习法语，我自己在中学学习法语、拉丁语和希腊语。我不想重复我父母和我姐姐走过的路，所以就选择了一个比较遥远的文化。我喜欢法语之类的现代语言，也喜欢古代的拉丁语和希腊语，中文刚好古代语和现代语兼而有之，从古文到现代汉语发展没有中断。如果学习中文，那就有机会同时接触古代汉语和现代汉语。我也可以选择日语，但是日本历史、日本文化没有那么吸引我，我觉得中国有更丰富、更悠久的文化传统。
我于 20 世纪 70 年代开始学习中文，当时是想更多地了解中国。那时还是“毛泽东时代”，中国好像是一个很神秘的国家。到了“文化大革命” 后期，中国开始恢复跟西方国家的交流，英国学生开始有机会到中国来留学或者进修，所以我觉得可能以后会有更好的学习环境。那时我没想到中国的变化会这么快、这么惊人，但就是预感中国会有变化。我高中就申请到剑桥大学去学中文，那时中国现当代文学没有很吸引我，引起我兴趣的是中国古代文学，尤其是明清小说，我们本科时阅读的冯梦龙“三言”的一些短篇，还有《红楼梦》和《儒林外史》的一些篇章都很有趣。我研究生时的研究方向也是明清文学，尤其是明清小说。
我对翻译的兴趣是最近 20 年才开始的。一方面，翻译作为学术活动、学术成果在美国大学并不那么受重视。刚参加工作时，我没想过要做翻译。晋升教授以后，我享有更多的自由，可以做一些自己想做的事情，这才开始从事翻译。另一方面，20 世纪 90 年代后期，中国当代文学出现了一些比较出色的作品，这也是我尝试翻译中国文学的原因。我之所以喜欢翻译，因为它跟研究不一样。研究古典文学比较辛苦，翻译当代文学就相对轻松，还可以直接与作者交流，研究蒲松龄就没有这种乐趣。翻译带给我快乐，使我得以更多了解当代中国文学的动向，丰富了我的学术生活和精神生活。杨：是什么原因使您决定研究明清文言小说，如《聊斋志异》的？
白：我在大学四年级快毕业的时候开始阅读《聊斋志异》，觉得趣味十足。当时读的是中文原著，比较吃力，但依靠一些注释也基本可以读懂。剑桥大学中文系很重视传统文化和古典文学，我们的中文口语可能不那么流畅，但是读古文还是有相当水平的。我喜欢研究别人不太研究的作家和作品。现在《聊斋志异》比较热门，但在 20世纪 70 年代末我作研究生时，从 1949 年到 1978 年，中国只出过两本有关《聊斋志异》的专著，重要的论文也只有十几篇。为什么文言小说在唐朝达到一个高峰，在蒲松龄生活的清朝又达到另一个高峰？这是我当时感兴趣的问题。同时，蒲松龄从 30 多岁开始写《聊斋志异》，一直写到快70 岁，在这个漫长的过程中，他的写作发生了怎样的变化？这也是我想研究的问题。此外，《聊斋志异》中有些故事并不纯粹是虚构的，而是来源于现实生活，而我恰好也喜欢从历史的角度去研究文学。基于这些考虑，《聊斋志异》深深地吸引了我。后来《聊斋志异》逐渐成为很多人关注的作品，我的兴趣反而淡薄了，最近 20 年基本没有发表与《聊斋志异》相关的论文，转而研究一些没什么人研究的文言小说及作家。
杨：您是否关注过《聊斋志异》的英译本？
白：我阅读原著的同时也读了翟理斯（HerbertGiles，1845—1935）的译本“Strange Tales from a Chinese Studio”(1)。翟理斯翻译了《聊斋志异》三分之一左右的故事，但他的本意是把译文分享给他的孩子，而《聊斋志异》本来是为成年人写的，并不是儿童读物。为了满足儿童的阅读需求，他做了相应的修改或删除。比如说，原著中一个书生和一个美女相遇，二人可能很快发生了性关系，但在翟理斯译本中他们就只是喝茶。在《红玉》等好几个故事里他都做了这样的改写。从其他方面来说他还是个优秀的译者，而且他使用了维多利亚时期的英语，跟我们现在使用的英语有所差别，很好地反映了《聊斋志异》使用的中文不是现代普通白话文的事实。
杨：您为什么从中国明清文学的研究转向中国当代文学的翻译？
白：研究古典文学很吃力，古文很难懂，资料也难找，而且在图书馆借阅图书也有各种麻烦，效率很低。相比之下，做翻译要轻松很多，一台电脑，几本词典，再加上一两个中国朋友就可以了。我自己投入翻译工作，一方面是想换换口味；另一方面，我在教学过程中接触到一些中国当代文学的译本，对别人的译文往往不太满意，总觉得自己能够译得更好。做翻译给了我放开的机会，可以暂时摆脱严谨的学术研究。翻译中国当代文学作品，好像去当下的中国街道上看风景、看人物；搞明清文学研究能去看什么呢？
杨：在现当代众多有名的作家中，您为何选择翻译余华的作品？
白：当初我看中了余华的《许三观卖血记》（Chronicle of a Blood Merchant），1996 年左右我读了原著，两天就读完了。这本书的可读性很强，一些细节让我很感动，有些情节让我想哭，有些情节又令我想笑，我觉得很精彩，好像中国当代小说很少能引起这么一种反应；而且书的篇幅不长，语言简单，翻译不那么费力，这正是我想要翻译的那种书。但是很快我发现已经有人在翻译这本书，(2) 自己再翻译就不是很好的选择，所以我就决定翻译余华的短篇小说集《黄昏里的男孩》（Boy in the Twilight）(1)。这本书我也喜欢，篇幅比《许三观卖血记》还短，翻译更加容易。当时西方有很多反映“文化大革命”和“毛泽东时代”的著作及回忆录，我认为这些书很有价值，但如果外国人只读这样的书，就难以了解中国 1978 年以后的变化，还以为中国街上都是红卫兵呢。《黄昏里的男孩》的故事都发生在改革开放初期，与中国政治保持了一定的距离，更多反映的是普通老百姓的家庭问题，比如说父母和孩子的代沟、婚姻中的危机等，我觉得这是西方人比较容易认同和理解的题材，有译介的价值。
记得第一次跟余华见面是 2001 年，我利用学术假去北京拜访他。他同意我翻译这本书，从此我们开始了长达十几年的合作。无论是我来中国还是他去美国，我们都会见面。翻译了这本书后两三年，我又翻译了他的第一部长篇小说《在细雨中呼喊》（Cries in the Drizzle）(2)，2007年，这本书在美国上市。后来余华写了《兄弟》（Brothers）(3)，因为一些原因我没有承担这本书的翻译，但余华去美国为《兄弟》英文版做宣传时，到我的学校做了讲座。因为这场讲座，他开始写《十个词汇里的中国》（China in Ten Words）(4)，我也与他进行了第三次合作。《兄弟》之后，他写的《第七天》（The Seventh Day）(5) 也是我翻译的。目前美国已经出版了我翻译的四部余华作品，明年还有一个中短篇小说集出版，书名是《四月三日事件》（The April Third Incident）。
杨：您觉得余华小说有什么特点？您在翻译余华小说时遇到过哪些困难和挑战？
白：我喜欢余华的写作风格，简洁、朴实。余华的小说比较容易翻译，因为语言平实，没有方言，用的是标准普通话，句子往往也比较简短，没有那么多中国特有的东西，很少有“这个外国文化没有，怎么翻译成英文”的困扰。但同时，简洁或简单也会造成翻译的困难，余华写得不一定很具体，如果不小心处理，平易近人有可能就会变成平淡无奇。比如说《活着》（To Live）(6) 中提到了“羊”，那是 sheep 还是 goat ？如果是sheep，会不会是 lamb ？是一岁的羊还是三岁的羊？书里没有清楚地交代。《活着》的译者可能没搞清楚这个羊是 sheep、goat 还是 lamb，译本里会看到一些不那么一致的提法。再比如我最近翻译的《四月三日事件》中，男主人公很关注一个叫白雪的女子，有一天，他注意到白雪穿着红衣服。“红衣服”不是很具体的说法，是什么红衣服？是裤子、衬衣、大衣还是外套？如果翻译成 red clothes，那不能让读者想到她长什么样，英语读者不太习惯这个说法。遇到这种情况，我会发邮件给余华：在你心目中，那是什么样的红衣服？还有《在细雨中呼喊》中，故事发生在一个叫南门的乡村，从南门村到县城有一条小路。“小路”也是比较难翻译的，是 small road 还是 little road ？是用泥土还是水泥铺的？他并没有说明，外国人难以想象那是什么样的小路。我问了余华，才知道是path，而不是 road。余华小说的很多句子没有清晰的语法结构，因为叙述者往往不是文学家，而是像《活着》中福贵那样的农民和《第七天》中杨飞那样的普通职员。他们用很通俗的语言讲故事，可能一句话就包含了三四件事情，几件事情只是简单地连接在一起。如果直接翻译成英文，英美读者就会觉得这个句子没有什么逻辑，而是简单的拼凑。我阅读我的译文初稿时，每每觉得还要做一些工作才能让故事更容易为英语读者接受，为此，我会稍微增加一些逻辑词，比如说加上 and、although 等连接词，以符合英语读者的接受习惯。
所以翻译余华作品一方面似乎很简单，一个段落、一页、一章没有太多困难，但另一方面，读自己译文时就会觉得还得下大力气进行完善。
杨：就您所知，余华作品在英美的接受和影响情况如何？
白：影响情况难以判断。影响表现为被别的作家模仿，他们发现一个同行写的东西很好，然后使用同样的写法。目前我还没发现哪位中国作家在西方有着这样的影响。但接受肯定是有的，一些重要的报纸、杂志会刊发书评。现在，余华、莫言、苏童和阎连科等作家在国外会有媒体关注，也有一定的读者，但他们的作品到现在为止都没有成为畅销书。据说唯一畅销的是科幻小说《三体》，比较严肃、传统的文学作品可能都还没有取得突破。
余华的书在国外卖得不错，其中卖得最好的应该是《活着》。很多人喜欢这本小说，故事本身很有趣，同时呈现了中国几十年的历史，仿佛一本简明的历史教科书。而且还有电影，有些人会先看电影，然后再看原著。虽然《活着》的故事发生在中国，但故事本身比较具有普世性，外国读者即便不了解中国历史，也会被这个故事感动。福贵热爱生命，在苦难面前保持乐观，我想很多人会认同这种人生态度。
《十个词汇里的中国》也受到广泛的好评，很多人给朋友推荐这本书。这本书可读性也很强，有很多有意思的小故事，谈到“毛泽东时代”、改革开放时代，时间跨度大，却又不像严肃文学那么难懂。虽然是作者的主观视角，但故事真实、生动。读者一般都会很喜欢这本书。
杨：莫言小说在西方的反响和接受也不尽如人意吗？
白：莫言获得诺贝尔奖后，读者肯定是增加了，但我感觉他也没有一本书能够引起特别关注，或者让人特别兴奋。莫言获奖后在西方引起了某种程度的“莫言热”，但我不知道有多少人真心喜欢他的作品。女性读者恐怕尤其不太容易接受莫言小说所描写的暴力和丑陋。每次诺贝尔文学奖评出后，有些读者可能觉得有责任去读一读获奖者的书，起码要读一本，但这并不意味着他们会读他全部的作品。
杨：余华或其他中国作家有没有可能获得诺贝尔文学奖？译者的作用是否重要？
白：莫言获得诺贝尔文学奖说明中国作家和中国文学的国际影响力提高了，其他中国作家能否获得诺贝尔文学奖很难预测。译者、编辑、出版社都是重要的因素，另外宣传和营销也起着关键的作用。莫言的成功在一定程度上要归功于他的英文译者葛浩文（Howard Goldblatt）。葛浩文翻译了四十多本中国小说，在美国、英国等以英文为母语的国家，他的贡献很大，没有他，很多中国小说根本无法进入英文读者的视野。
杨：中国作家的写作与西方读者的接受存在差异，翻译时译者如何去平衡？
白：中国作家希望他们的作品能够获得不同读者的喜爱和欣赏，尽量扩大作品的读者群，但凡是有兴趣阅读中国小说英译本的英文读者，一般都受过良好教育，文学品位较高，他们不一定需要作者把事情说得很直白，而更愿意自己去琢磨，希望有独立思考的余地。在西方编辑看来，作者不用那么直接地告诉读者，只需展示一下就行了，只要展示得比较传神，读者自然能够明白。译者还是要尊重原文，如果原著“告诉”比较多， “展示”比较少，也只能接受现实，而不能单方面改动原作。
杨：您对葛浩文译本中多处删改原文的翻译策略有何看法？
白：我曾把葛浩文的译文与原著进行对比，确实有一些不一样的地方，我不确定是不是因为他用的中文版本跟正式出版的版本有所差异。
葛浩文可能有自己的理论考量，他认为中国缺乏编辑文化。西方国家的编辑一般是很有权威的，他们可以告诉哪怕是很著名的作家：这个地方写得不好，需要修改，或者我有建议希望你能考虑。这样修订稿跟交给编辑的初稿可能有相当大的改动。而中国的编辑没有这么高的权威，比较有名的作家完全可以告诉编辑：一点也不能更改！鉴于这种情况，葛浩文会觉得译本还是需要一定的编辑工作，既然中国编辑不承担这个责任，那么这个责任就要由译者承担。比如，莫言一本书的中文版长达五百多页，翻译成英文可能有六百多页，那么出版社可能会告诉葛浩文，我们不会出版这么长的书，你要想办法把它缩短一点，那他就会删除几章或者删除部分内容。
杨：您自己的翻译中有没有遇到这方面的问题？
白：我对《十个词汇里的中国》的个别地方进行了改动，其他译本基本上没有。《十个词汇里的中国》的编辑通过我把她的想法传达给余华，请他做出相应的修改，但是不多。我自己不太做大幅度的修改，可能是没有那么自信，不觉得自己能够判断什么是成功或不成功的写作，所以一般还是尊重原文。
杨：请您谈谈对《红楼梦》几个译本的看法。
白：我最熟悉的就是霍克斯（David Hawkes，1923—2009）和闵福德（John Minford）的版本 (1)。我还知道乔利（Henry B. Joly，1857—1898）的版本(2) 及杨宪益的版本 (3)，但没怎么读。霍克斯版本在1973 年出版第一册，当时我非常喜欢，现在也喜欢。我在英国长大，霍克斯是英国汉学家，当时感觉他的译文很通顺，很容易接受。后来搬到美国，再翻阅他的译本，用来教学生，结果美国学生认为英国味道很浓，好像故事不是发生在 18 世纪的中国，而是发生在 18 世纪的英国。这是霍克斯译本的一个问题。当然这其实是英语本身的问题，要么是美国的口语，要么是英国的口语。美国的口语美国人很适应，英国人就不适应，反之亦然。另外《红楼梦》有同性恋的内容，霍克斯的翻译一般比较可靠地反映了故事的文化背景，但他翻译中国传统文化中同性恋的替代概念“龙阳之兴”(4) 时，没有忠实于中国文化传统。“龙阳之兴”在中文里没有贬义，“兴”就是 tendency 或者 interest，可是霍克斯把它翻译成 vice，就有明显的贬义。英国传统文化不接受同性恋，非常排斥，他采取了英国比较流行的态度翻译这个词，我想他对待同性恋的这种态度不适合《红楼梦》，因为清代还是比较接受同性恋的。这是他翻译中的一个美中不足之处吧。但是霍克斯的诗词翻译非常好，这些诗文翻译成英文后仍然是非常好的诗词。总体而言，霍克斯对《红楼梦》翻译的贡献是很大的。
杨：您在课堂上使用《红楼梦》哪个译本？学生们对它评价如何？白：我给学生讲课时用的是霍克斯译本，因为容易买到。我的学生总的来说不太喜欢《红楼梦》，他们记不住人名。霍克斯将人名对应为英文里的单词，读者可以较少面对那些外国名字，会觉得亲切一点，比如 Patience（平儿）、Aroma（袭人）等。另外，《红楼梦》很长，一般不能在一学期内讲完，最多只能学习第一册，还不到全书的四分之一，学生会为此感到沮丧：花了好几个星期读了那么多内容，结果还只是全书的一小部分。
杨：近五十年中国文学在英美的翻译与传播情况如何？
白：西方 20 世纪 60 年代以前比较流行一种看法，就是认为中国古代小说没有西方小说那么好。外国人不太容易欣赏中国的这些作品，因为西方翻译家认为中国小说有缺陷，没有必要把全部内容都翻译成英文，他们有理由、有权力删掉一些多余的诗词，或者删掉故事太长、情节无聊的内容。20 世纪 40 年代韦利（Arthur Waley， 1889—1966）把《西游记》的三分之一翻译成英文，书名是“Monkey”，(5) 他认为《西游记》有很多重复的内容，没有必要翻译全文。这在 20 世纪前半叶是一个比较普遍的态度。《红楼梦》也有一个缩写本，只有 300 页。一个转折点可能是霍克斯在 1973 年出版的《红楼梦》译本。霍克斯认为他有责任把《红楼梦》的所有内容翻译成英文，他的“企鹅古典系列”（Penguin Classics）版本是最流行的《红楼梦》英译本。自此，别的翻译家也大多采取了相同的态度，很认真地把中国古代小说完整地翻译成英文。芝加哥大学教授余国藩（Anthony C. Yu，1938— 2015）在 1977 年出版了《西游记》新译本的第一册，全书一共有四册，1983 年出齐。(6)《三国演义》的完整译本 (7) 于 1994 年出版，译者罗慕士（Moss Roberts）是纽约大学的教授。另外一个获得好评的译本是《金瓶梅》，译者芮效卫（David Tod Roy，1933—2016）也是芝加哥大学教授，他用了二十年来翻译这本书，第一册于 1993 年(1) 出版，一册有二十回，最后一册在 2013 年出版。《金瓶梅》译本的特点是芮效卫做了很多注释，《金瓶梅》英译本全五册的总页数是 2500 多页，注释多达 4400 多条。
最近 50 年来，把全部的原著呈现给读者好像是一个比较流行的现象，好像只有文言小说没有这么做，可能因为文言小说没有一个很整体的统一（unity）。现在的情况是，一方面，有些很完整且翻译得非常认真的译本，读者不一定很多，因为他们读完这些作品要花很长的时间；另外一方面，有一些新的选集针对普通的学生，普通的读者。总的来讲，无论是全译本还是节译本，这些翻译家都是用比较同情的态度去翻译的，不像一百年以前的译者，总是对中国古典小说进行批评和指责。
如英国的蓝诗玲（Julia Lovell）、韩斌（Nicky Harman），美国的译者更多。80 年代生活在中国的几位译者做的一些翻译，外文出版社推出的“熊猫丛书”在国外发行有问题，没做什么宣传，很难买到。现在一般是外国人把中文作品翻译成自己的母语，在国外的出版社出版，并且会做一定的宣传，因此提高了作品的知名度。
杨：现在翻译中国文学作品的译者有汉学家、外籍普通学者、外籍华人、中国本土学者等等，您认为最为理想的译者是谁？
白：汉学家一般是大学教授，但教授不一定是好译者。有些人不是教授，但中文英文都很好，也可以把中国作品翻译成英文。是不是汉学家是次要的，甚至有人认为教授不是最合适的翻译人选，因为他们可能读了太多的学术著作，比较严谨迂腐。较为口语化或生活化的书，博士学位可能无助于准确翻译。译者最好在中国生活过多年，有较好的语言、文化感觉，知道中国人讲的话是什么意思。我想外国译者把中文作品翻译成自己的母语时比较有优势，因为他们对自己的语言有丰富的感觉和直觉，对于什么是好的翻译、怎样翻译比较成功，心里比较有数。
杨：目前在中国文化对外传播中强调中国声音和中国话语，提倡保留原汁原味。您对“中国作品走出去倾向于异化”的翻译策略和方法有什么看法？
白：我自己的翻译理论很薄弱，只是一个翻译实践者。我没有什么深厚的理念功底，更多靠自己的直觉和感觉，针对具体问题选择归化或者异化，不会一概而论。
我注意到有些译者遇到“山寨”等中国特色词汇时，认为无法用外语表达，最好用拼音。我自己觉得这个办法不好。虽然“copycat”还不能完全代表“山寨”，但比较简洁，比用拼音好，至少传达了原文的一部分味道。比如中国人打招呼说“吃饭了吗”“你回来了”，这些直接翻译成英文就不妥当，我们不这么讲话。虽然它们反映了中国文化，中国人这么说不奇怪，但看译文会觉得奇怪，所以我觉得这种情况直译不一定是个很好的策略。
杨：您为什么翻译中国“80 后”作家韩寒的作品？
白：西蒙与舒斯特公司（Simon & Schuster）是美国的一家大型出版社，他们想出版韩寒的两本书，并找到了我。我本来没有很关注中国“80后”作家的作品，但认为通过翻译可以更多地了解他们。出版社首先想出版韩寒的一些博客文章，我读了后觉得他的写作风格比较有趣，与传统的文学作品不同，值得翻译。出版社给我提供了韩寒杂文的台湾版，书名叫《青春》，但我只选了书中的一部分作品，更多的文章直接选自他的博客。我们选的文集书名是《这一代》（This Generation）(2)。他的很多文章写得犀利风趣，但考虑到美国读者的兴趣，有些文章不适合选择进来。例如他谈中国当代诗歌的文章，虽然文章本身很好，但因为美国人不了解中国当代诗歌，所以就放弃了。美国人更有兴趣的是他那些关于政治、社会、文化的杂文。出版社也希望我翻译韩寒的长篇小说《1988：我想和世界谈谈》，但我并不太看好这部在中国炒得很热的小说，所以就没有翻译。
杨：您如何评价韩寒及其作品？
白：他是一位特别的作家，是一代中国青年的代表。他善于独立思考，不会在意主流媒体怎么说、一般百姓怎么想，不肯人云亦云。韩寒的存在也让美国人看到，中国不仅仅有官方的声音，还有个体自己的声音。
他文笔有趣，有讽刺，有比喻，很巧妙。他的幽默也很有特色，很多时候利用谐音调侃一些社会现象，翻译起来比较困难。我有时候想，如果找不到合适的对应的句子，我宁可舍弃，因为我不想在后边加个注解：这种做法在中文里是很好笑的。
杨：近年来您的翻译取向发生了改变，从小说转向随笔和杂文等非虚构作品，这是为什么？
白：这反映了美国相当一部分读者的兴趣。外国人阅读中国文学作品有一个重要动机，希望借此多了解中国，让他们通过小说接触一个虚拟的中国，还不如让他们接触一个离现实更近、非虚构的中国。曾经有人在《华盛顿邮报》上说：读完一部中国长篇小说之后，感觉与其用小说的形式去反映中国的一些不合理现象，不如干脆写非虚构作品。既然中国的某些现实已经让人眼花缭乱，何必要费尽心思去创造另一个虚拟世界呢？
杨：中国文学“走出去”需要克服哪些困难？中国当代文学在西方的前景如何？
白：中国文学的翻译、出版和海外接受都不够理想，需要克服的困难很多，主要问题有：翻译质量、创作倾向、文化差异、版权代理、推广力度、营销手段等等。
由于中国经济实力的强大，外国人普遍认为应该加强对中国的了解，西方媒体非常关注中国的动向，海外出版社比过去更积极地推销与中国有关的书籍。读几本当代作家的小说好像是一个比较便利的办法，所以我对中国当代文学在西方的前景还是持乐观态度的。
杨：您最近在做什么翻译或研究工作？近期有什么打算吗？
白：翻译只是我的一部分工作，作品暂时不多，翻译量不大，一般两三年才翻译一本书，我对自己的翻译量没有太高的期待。我现在正在翻译一个回忆录，是艾青儿子艾未未写的一部非虚构作品，讲述他父亲和他自己的故事。他是一位重要的艺术家，我对他的回忆录饶有兴味。
我还会继续研究明清文学，也许会写一两篇跟《聊斋志异》有关的论文，谈谈书里涉及的谣言和传闻的故事，这些在明清社会还是很流行的。
杨：谢谢！白教授耐心细致的解答！
白：谢谢！我很高兴接受采访！

2021 Interview with Duan Yuanyuan

2021-03-04T14:13:25Z

Bebery: /* 5 为何从古典文学的翻译转向中国现当代文学的翻译？ */

2021 Interview with Duan Yuanyuan

2021-03-04T14:12:25Z

Bebery: /* 5 为何从古典文学的翻译转向中国现当代文学的翻译？ */

2021 Interview with Duan Yuanyuan

2021-03-04T14:11:33Z

Bebery: /* 3 欧洲红学 */

2021 Interview with Duan Yuanyuan

2021-03-04T13:49:19Z

Bebery: /* Notes about the intercultural approach */

2021 Interview with Duan Yuanyuan

2021-03-04T13:44:28Z

Bebery: /* 11. 曹雪芹和跨国文化 */

'''访谈提纲 Interview with Martin Woesler by Duan Yuanyuan'''

=1 让·莫内讲席教授=
吴教授您好，非常感谢您拨冗接受我的访谈！首先恭喜您获得“让·莫内讲席教授”荣誉称号，此地位是欧盟对从事欧洲一体化教学与研究学者的最高学术承认！您真可谓是一位欧盟的学术大使！据悉，该项目申请难度颇大，中国今年只有湖南师范大学、四川大学和中国政法大学三所大学获得资助。您可否借此次获奖的机缘，说明你眼中中欧的学术交流呢？
不客气！的确，我把自己看作是中欧之间的“文化大使”，把这次获得“让·莫内讲席教授”称号看作是在华工作、学习、生活近三十年的一个阶段性总结。许多西方人认为在华生活是一个极大的挑战，对此我并不否认，但是挑战之余，我还从中看到了变革[What kind of transformation are we talking about here? ]的必要性，而且变革只有通过接触和交流才能实现。中国应该有更多的欧洲学者，中国也应该成为德国每一所大学亟需讨论的议题。
You're welcome! Indeed, I regard myself as a "cultural ambassador" between China and Europe, and I regard winning the title of "Professor Jean Monnet Lecture" as a phased summary of nearly 30 years of work, study and life in China. Many Westerners think that living in China is a great challenge, which I don't deny, but besides the challenge, I also see the necessity of change, and change can only be realized through contact and communication. There should be more European scholars in China, and China should also become an urgent topic for every German university to discuss.
欧盟委员会2020年在全球范围内授予了70个让·莫内教席，且每所大学最多可获一个名额。中国境内大学上次获得还是在2016年。“让·莫内讲席教授”传统上主要关注欧盟相关研究。现在欧盟委员会把这个奖项授予在中国任教的德国汉学家，这说明欧盟委员会已经认识到批判性地对比其它国家和欧盟发展模式的重要性。
In 2020, the European Commission awarded 70 Jean Monnet chairs worldwide, and each university can get up to one place. The last time universities in China won it was in 2016. Traditionally, "Professor Jean Monnet" mainly focuses on EU-related research. Now the European Commission has awarded this award to German sinologists who teach in China, which shows that the European Commission has realized the importance of critically comparing the development models of other countries with those of the European Union.
我不想把欧盟在中国的表现作为中国的反面典型，而是用批判性的眼光看待。中国学生正是通过批判性思维树立价值观。我曾做过调查，结果显示，很多中国学生认为欧盟的政治一体化还没有成功，英国脱欧反映了欧盟的软弱，但我想传达的知识是，欧盟已经在运作了，只是方式不同而已：即追求的不是快速而精干的决策过程，而是等待、讨论、参与和妥协。
I don't want to take the EU's performance in China as a negative example of China, but look at it critically. It is through critical thinking that Chinese students establish values. I have done a survey, and the results show that many Chinese students think that the political integration of the EU has not been successful, and Brexit reflects the weakness of the EU, but the knowledge I want to convey is that the EU is already in operation, only in different ways: it is not a fast and lean decision-making process, but waiting, discussing, participating and compromising.
同时，英国脱欧正表明欧盟每个成员都有随时离开的自由，这被视为一种成就。所以欧洲未必比中国差，只是不同而已。而当中国学生乐于接受不同的时候，他们的个性就会得到发展，成熟起来，适合国际就业市场。因此，我很鼓励学生去欧洲交换学习一两个学期。
At the same time, Brexit shows that every EU member has the freedom to leave at any time, which is regarded as an achievement. Therefore, Europe is not necessarily worse than China, it is just different. When Chinese students are willing to accept differences, their personalities will develop and mature, which is suitable for the international job market. Therefore, I encourage students to go to Europe for exchange study for one or two semesters.
申请“让·莫内讲席”项目时，我就在材料中表明该项目的落脚点在于中国和欧洲的比较，课题还囊括不同的教育体系、社会各领域的数字化以及对数据隐私的保护。通过该项目，我会推荐几名德国同事来中国短期或者长期工作，也会推荐中国同事去欧洲短期访学。并针对该项目，设置课程专题对比中欧近来的对外政策，以期激励中国塑造更加完整的海外形象。
When applying for the "Jean Monnet Lecture" project, I indicated in the materials that the foothold of the project lies in the comparison between China and Europe, and the topic also includes different education systems, digitalization in various fields of society and protection of data privacy. Through this project, I will recommend several German colleagues to work in China for a short or long time, and I will also recommend Chinese colleagues to visit Europe for a short time. In view of this project, a course topic is set up to compare the recent foreign policies of China and Europe, in order to encourage China to shape a more complete overseas image.

=2 《红楼梦》首次全译本=
2.您的代表作是《红楼梦》德语全译本，您是如何走上汉学之路的呢？可否谈谈与史华慈合译《红楼梦》的初衷？How did you begin to learn Chinese and how to stick to the path of sinology for so many years? Why did you choose to translate 红楼梦？
《红楼梦》的意义大于个人，是一件永恒的艺术品，应该提升到“世界遗产”的地位。目前，欧洲只有半数国家出版《红楼梦》译本。1989年我刚上大学的时候，德文版《红楼梦》也只有弗兰茨-库恩的节译本，共40章，只有原文体量的三分之一。与库恩的其他中国优秀小说译本在语言上几乎没有差别，带有浓厚的德国地方色彩。我也注意到了译文的不足之处。他把《红楼梦》书名中的“楼”翻译成“城堡”。这种译法也许比较适合欧洲读者的阅读口味，但就中国文化、中国历史、中国环境而言，我认为不太准确。这些不足之处也可解释为什么大卫-霍克斯和约翰-闵福德的译本在德国广受欢迎。
A Dream of Red Mansions is more meaningful than an individual. It is an eternal work of art and should be promoted to the status of "World Heritage". At present, only half of European countries have translated a Dream of Red Mansions. When I first went to college in 1989, the German version of a Dream of Red Mansions was only a flantz-Kuhn excerpt, with a total of 40 chapters, only one third of the original volume. There is almost no difference in language with Kuhn's other excellent Chinese novel translations, with strong German local color. I also noticed the shortcomings of the translation. He translated "Lou" in the title of A Dream of Red Mansions into "Castle". This translation may be more suitable for European readers, but I don't think it is accurate in terms of Chinese culture, Chinese history and Chinese environment. These shortcomings can also explain why the translations of David Hawkes and John Minford are so popular in Germany.
XX年/契机我开始重新翻译《红楼梦》。也是通过这个项目，我申请到了北京大学德意志学术交流中心（Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst，简称DAAD）奖学金。因此我也得以在北京大学学习X个月。[When did you study in Peking University? And for how long?]当时的选拔委员会主席是沃尔夫冈·顾彬（Wolfgang Kubin，中文名顾彬），他后来成为我的博士生导师之一。随后在北京，我多次参观了红楼梦研究所。参观之时张#送给我一本《红楼梦》辞典。后来回到德国，我与马汉茂（Helmut Martin）合作。从他那里我了解到，史华慈（Rainer Schwarz）已经将小说前80章翻译出来，并将自己的译文交给他出版，马汉茂让我审阅了史华兹的译本。不过译文暂未达到出版质量，[Can you give more details of why it can not be published yet? ]还需修订。
XX Year/Opportunity I began to retranslate A Dream of Red Mansions. It was also through this project that I applied for a scholarship from Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst (DAAD) of Peking University. So I was able to study at Peking University for X months. At that time, the chairman of the selection committee was Wolfgang Kubin (Chinese name Gu Bin), who later became one of my doctoral supervisors. Later in Beijing, I visited the Dream of Red Mansions Research Institute many times. During the visit, Zhang # gave me a dictionary of a Dream of Red Mansions. Later, when I returned to Germany, I cooperated with Helmut Martin. I learned from him that Rainer Schwarz had translated the first 80 chapters of the novel and gave him his own translation for publication. Ma Hanmao asked me to review Schwartz's translation. However, the translation has not yet reached the publishing quality and needs to be revised.
这次翻译尝试于我而言具有重大意义，我认为修改史华兹的译本使其达到出版水平比自己独立完成120章的翻译更重要。我花了几年时间修订史华兹的译文，随后自己翻译了后40回。然后按照前80回的风格重新修改我翻译的后40回，其中人名的翻译统一采用正式的拼音系统及其拼写方法，且并非采用标准的汉语拼音，而是按照德语书写方式，这样做的目的是尽可能地吸引更多读者的关注，且避免读者出现行文风格“跳脱”感受。
This translation attempt is of great significance to me. I think it is more important to revise Schwartz's translation to the publishing level than to complete the translation of 120 chapters independently. It took me several years to revise Schwartz's translation, and then I translated the last 40 times myself. Then I revised the last 40 times of my translation according to the style of the first 80 times, Among them, the translation of names adopts the formal Pinyin system and its spelling method, and does not adopt the standard Chinese Pinyin, but according to the German writing method. The purpose of this is to attract more readers' attention as much as possible, and to avoid readers' feeling of "jumping" in writing style.
现在，读者可获得完整、精细的译本，译本必要处附有注释。之后在XX年X月[When will the fifth edition be published? ]会出版第五版，该版本会根据读者意见和自己对原文的重新理解再进行改进。比如在我未出版的120章全译本中，很多人名的翻译也考虑到了名字的中文含义。[What amendments will you make in the fifth edition of the Chamber? Could you please list some? ]
Now, readers can get a complete and detailed translation, with notes where necessary. Then [when will the fifth edition be published? ] will publish the fifth edition, which will be improved according to readers' opinions and their own re-understanding of the original text. For example, in my unpublished full translation of 120 chapters, the translation of many names also takes into account the Chinese meaning of names. [What amendments will you make in the fifth edition of the Chamber? Could you please list some? ]

=3 欧洲红学=
3.您曾在国内红学权威刊物《红楼梦学刊》上发表过两篇文章，以德国人的视角叙述西方对《红楼梦》的了解，并介绍德译本情况以及西方学者的理解及评价。从这两篇文章可以看出，《红楼梦》在西方的传播已变换形式，由文本本身的传播向舞台剧等多模态形态发展。请问现今欧洲的红学研究、传播现状如何？您认为《红楼梦》对国内外读者有何影响？
小说是“时代精神”的体现。《红楼梦》于1791年首次出版，其创作背景是中国少数民族之一的满族统治下的清朝，曹家或受康熙宠信或备受雍正冷落以致抄家没落。囿于时代背景，作者在当时无法公开批判帝制皇权，但在小说中，他在家庭日益衰败（从事道教、闲暇、诗歌创作、艺术和音乐，而不是为了能够谋生而学习）和自己没有实现作为家族继承人的期望中，寻求被迫害的根源。这种对名家望族没落之路的描写使我们想起了契诃夫的小说。此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的纪实性历史小说《铁皮鼓》(1959年)非常相似。最值得一提的是《红楼梦》和托马斯·曼的《布登勃洛克一家》（1901年）。两部小说都描写了出生富贵的年轻一代人的颓废、没落、溃散，以及一个家族的社会地位和经济状况的逐渐没落与覆灭。托马斯·曼的小说是以资产阶级社会的巨大变革为背景，而曹雪芹的作品则选取了某个朝代的更迭时期作为时代背景，在其中帝王利益与家族利益发生了冲突! 有趣的是，两部作品中的主要角色都挑选了英年早逝的类似人物。《红楼梦》里林黛玉为情而亡，秦可卿因乱伦自尽，贾元春和妙玉也是突然死亡。在《布登勃洛克一家》里克拉拉在婚后不久即死于脑结核，托马斯在牙科手术后去世，汉诺死于伤寒。两部作品都在结构和主题上运用了影射等大量的艺术手法，以丰富的故事进展描绘出一幅衰败的景象。因此，这种并行发展令人惊讶，很难说《布登勃洛克一家》的创作没受到《红楼梦》的影响。
The novel is the embodiment of "the spirit of the times". A Dream of Red Mansions was first published in 1791. Its creation background was the Qing Dynasty under the rule of Manchu, one of China's ethnic minorities. The Cao family was either favored by Kangxi or neglected by Yongzheng, resulting in the decline of property ownership. Constrained by the background of the times, the author could not publicly criticize the imperial power at that time, but in the novel, he sought the root of persecution in the declining family (engaged in Taoism, leisure, poetry creation, art and music, instead of studying in order to make a living) and his failure to realize his expectation of being the heir of the family. This decadent description of declining families reminds us of Chekhov's novels. In addition, the detailed description of the life of all social strata in the early Qing Dynasty in A Dream of Red Mansions is very similar to Gunter Grass's documentary historical novel Tin Drum (1959). The most noteworthy ones are A Dream of Red Mansions and Thomas Mann's Budenbrock Family (1901). Both novels describe the decadence, decline and collapse of the wealthy young generation, as well as the gradual decline and collapse of a family's social status and economic situation. Thomas Mann's novels are set against the background of great changes in bourgeois society, while Cao Xueqin's works choose the change period of a certain dynasty as the background of the times, in which the interests of emperors and families conflict! Interestingly, the main characters in the two works have chosen similar characters who died young. In a Dream of Red Mansions, Lin Daiyu died of love, Qin Keqing committed suicide due to incest, and Jia Yuanchun and Miaoyu also died suddenly. In the Budenbrock Family, Clara died of brain tuberculosis shortly after marriage, Thomas died after dental surgery, and Hanno died of typhoid fever. Both works use a lot of artistic techniques such as innuendo in structure and theme, and depict a declining scene with rich story progress. Therefore, this parallel development is surprising. It is hard to say that the creation of the Budenbroc Family was not influenced by a Dream of Red Mansions.

4.您曾在欧洲多所学校任教，请问现今欧洲汉学的研究状况如何？
You have taught in many European schools. What is the current research status of Sinology in Europe?

=5 为何从古典文学的翻译转向中国现当代文学的翻译？=
除了《红楼梦》这一代表译作之外，您还翻译了包括鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱锺书、韩少功、贾平凹等在内的一批著名作家的优秀作品。可否谈谈为什么选择不同时代作家的作品？您又是如何再现他们不同的写作风格？[This question intends to know about why you choose to translate works of those writers. Is it because of personal interests or the publisher asking you to do so?
I think the section of Xu Zechen serves as good interview answers. As Chinese readers, we are desperate to know what things are like from Westerners’ perspective. ]
为何从古典文学的翻译转向中国现当代文学的翻译？
Why did you shift from the translation of classical literature to the translation of modern and contemporary Chinese literature?
不同时代的作品反映出不同的时代背景，这些作品对我个人而言是很好的窗口，可以窥探不同时期中国的社会面貌，还可与同期的欧洲文学进行比较。贾平凹作为20世纪80年代以来中国最伟大的作家之一，英译本很少。究其原因，首先在于他的作品植根于山西农村，带有浓重的地域风俗习惯。首先读懂原文对译者来说就是一项挑战，更不用提在译入语中找到对应的表达。我在翻译贾平凹的XX中就遇到了这个问题。。。。。。。。[Can you list some difficulties when translating Jia Pingwa’s or any other author’s works? We like the details.]
The works of different times reflect different backgrounds of the times. These works are a good window for me personally. I can spy on the social outlook of China in different periods and compare them with European literature in the same period. Jia Pingwa, as one of the greatest writers in China since 1980s, has few English versions. The reason lies in the fact that his works are rooted in Shanxi rural areas and have strong regional customs. It is a challenge for translators to understand the original text first, not to mention finding the corresponding expression in the target language. I encountered this problem in translating Jia Pingwa's XX. . . . . . . .
对于译者来说，翻译不同作者的作品时面对的翻译难点不同。而不同的译者有着不同的处理方式，这也能解释为何同一部作品有几个翻译版本，且翻译策略各有不同。我深知译者的文化背景对译本翻译策略的选择有很大影响，所以有些作品即便存在译本，我还是选择重新翻译。从鲁迅的短篇小说中，我们可以读出作者内心的矛盾：文学能改变世界吗？难道一定要身体力行才能改变世界吗？难道连唤醒那些像阿Q一样任由自己被牵着走，任人宰割的昏昏欲睡的同胞们也能做到吗？当无法改变自己和社会的命运时，唤醒他们还有什么用呢？作为译者，我们如何再现这种矛盾心理，如何处理鲁迅在翻译中有些古板的早期白话，如何与他对日常政治事件的论述。这些都是翻译中必不可免的问题。目前已有的鲁迅作品德译本在这些方面的处理方式多样。巴金在受到批评后修改了三部曲之一的《家》，删除了缠足现象。在翻译这部作品的过程中，译者必须决定是翻译原版还是删减后的版本。
For translators, translation difficulties are different when translating works of different authors. Different translators have different ways of dealing with it, which can explain why there are several translated versions of the same work and the translation strategies are different. I know that the translator's cultural background has a great influence on the choice of translation strategies, so I choose to retranslate some works even if there are translations. From Lu Xun's short stories, we can read the author's inner contradiction: Can literature change the world? Do you have to practice to change the world? Can we even wake up those sleepy compatriots who let themselves be led and slaughtered like Ah Q? What's the use of awakening them when they can't change their own destiny and that of society? As translators, how do we reproduce this ambivalence, how do we deal with Lu Xun's rigid early vernacular in translation, and how do we communicate with his exposition of daily political events? These are all inevitable problems in translation. At present, the existing German versions of Lu Xun's works deal with these aspects in various ways. After being criticized, Ba Jin revised Home, one of the trilogy, and deleted foot binding. In the process of translating this work, the translator must decide whether to translate the original version or the abridged version.
我个人很喜欢徐则臣的作品。在2009年（北上2015年才出版）[Is this book called <北上>？]的法兰克福书展上，他的故事《北上》受到广泛好评。事实上，他的生活经历与我有些重叠部分。我们都在北京大学学习过，只不过他比我早入学一点（多久）。当时校园里有一种亚文化，博士生们住在餐厅旁边的闲置房间里，因为他们对大学里的人、办事流程了如指掌，而且在独立的诗歌和艺术界也有联系，所以每逢有聚会，他们都很抢手，大家竞相邀请他们参加聚会。那时的大学涌现着一股乐观主义的精神，起初门外涌现出私营商业市场，后来校园里传出“开公司”的口号。那时，毕业生不愿毕业就被分入特定的工作岗位，身上的自由和责任感促使他们闯一闯这个世界。故事里拿着盗版产品的街边小贩和软件开发产品的学生先锋也是这幅画的一部分。徐则臣将这种气氛真实地捕捉到，令人信服。他笔下的人物在我们心上扎根，爱上他们，学会在生活中打拼。也是这种情感体验上的共鸣促使我翻译《北上》这部作品。
Personally, I like Xu Zechen's works very much. At the Frankfurt Book Fair in 2009 (published in 2015), his story "Going North" was widely praised. In fact, his life experience overlaps with mine. We all studied at Peking University, but he entered school a little earlier than me. At that time, there was a subculture on campus. Doctoral students lived in idle rooms next to restaurants. Because they knew the people and procedures in the university like the back of their hand, and they also had contacts in independent poetry and art circles, they were very popular whenever there was a party, and everyone invited them to attend the party. At that time, there was a spirit of optimism in universities. At first, private commercial markets emerged outside the doors. Later, the slogan of "starting a company" came out on campus. At that time, graduates were assigned to specific jobs without graduating, and their freedom and sense of responsibility prompted them to enter the world. Street vendors with pirated products and student pioneers with software development products in the story are also part of this painting. Xu Zechen captured this atmosphere truly and convincingly. His characters take root in our hearts, fall in love with them and learn to work hard in life. It is also this resonance in emotional experience that prompted me to translate the work "North".

=6 跨文化身份=
6. 作为汉学家和翻译家，您的跨文化身份让你置身于东西方文明之间。当您从欧洲文化和文学背景来到中国的文化和文学背景中，在两种迥异的语言之间进行转换，是否感到自己的思维方式和行文风格发生了些许改变？[This question asks you whether living in China for almost eight years affects your translating ideologies? Is there any difference if you only learned Chinese but never lived in China for such a long time? ]

=7 中西合璧=
有人认为中华文化走出去最好的译介模式是“中西合璧”，如葛浩文和林丽君的译作在国内外产生了较大影响。您对此有何看法？[I think this answer is rather insufficient. ]
什么是理想的译者？韦努蒂认为译者应该是隐身的，看不见的。如果读者没有注意到所读文本是一个译本，那么译者就达到了完美的境界。我认为，原语文化的译者在理解原文上的确更占优势，但是在传达上就不如来自目标语文化的译者，只有这样的译者才能向目标读者传达想要传达的形象。已经掌握了两种文化和语言的人来做译者是最合适不过的。当然，如果译者本身就是作家就更好了，这样翻译出来的译文想必更贴近原作。
What is an ideal translator? Venuti believes that translators should be invisible and invisible. If the reader doesn't notice that the text he reads is a translation, then the translator has reached a perfect state. In my opinion, the translator of the source language culture does have an advantage in understanding the original text, but he is not as good as the translator from the target language culture in conveying it. Only in this way can the translator convey the image he wants to convey to the target readers. People who have mastered both cultures and languages are the most suitable translators. Of course, it would be better if the translator himself was a writer, so the translated version must be closer to the original.
译文总是一种新的创造，它在文字上不能再模仿原文，而在功能、效果等方面却可以再现原文的特点，所以葛浩文和林丽君这样的“中西合璧”的组合在翻译极具中国特色的作品时应该会比较合适。
Translation is always a new creation. It can no longer imitate the original text in words, but can reproduce the characteristics of the original text in terms of function and effect. Therefore, the combination of "Chinese and Western combination" such as Ge Haowen and Lin Lijun should be more appropriate when translating works with Chinese characteristics.

=8 中华文化外译传播=
8. 根据您的实践经验和理性思考，中华文化外译传播有哪些成功因素?
首先，对于普通读者而言，接受《红楼梦》第一步就必须有可读的译本，因此《红楼梦》在其它没有译本的国家的传播有赖于译者的工作。我认为等待引进不如主动输出。这样成功的例子不是没有。20世纪80年代，杨宪益倡议出版熊猫丛书，意在向国外译介中国当代、现代和古代的优秀作品，所出版的杂志和从书在国外有相当大的影响，几乎成为很长时期内国外研究中国汉学、对中国文学有兴趣的人了解中国文学的唯一的窗口。因此，中国相关机构可借鉴当时的经验，在还没有译本的欧洲国家作出尝试。
First of all, for ordinary readers, the first step to accept a Dream of Red Mansions is to have a readable translation, so the dissemination of a Dream of Red Mansions in other countries without a translation depends on the translator's work. I think it is better to take the initiative to export than to wait for import. There are not no such successful examples. In 1980s, Yang Xianyi initiated the publication of Panda Series, aiming at translating and introducing excellent works of contemporary, modern and ancient China to foreign countries. The published magazines and books have a considerable influence abroad, and have almost become the only window for people who study Chinese Sinology abroad and are interested in Chinese literature to understand Chinese literature for a long time. Therefore, relevant Chinese institutions can learn from the experience at that time and try in European countries that have not yet translated them.
其次，西方尤其是美国的《红楼梦》研究开始用现代理论解读《红楼梦》，如 “感觉”、“同性恋”等。因此在每隔几年举办一次的红学会议上，整理以前的研究，撰写一部西方学术界与小说接触史就显得十分重要。
Secondly, the study of "A Dream of Red Mansions" in the West, especially in the United States, began to interpret "A Dream of Red Mansions" with modern theories, such as "feeling" and "homosexuality". Therefore, it is very important to sort out the previous research and write a history of contact between western academic circles and novels at the Redology Conference held every few years.
我很早就开始关注《红楼梦》在西方的接受情况。其刚进入西方世界之时并不是一片叫好，直至被列为世界文学的一部分，这一过程持续了很多年。一方面是因为完整的译本直至XX年才出现，另一方面是因为许多西方汉学家和译者的民族中心主义世界观，他们认为只有本土的文学才称得上世界文学，而对别国文学视若无睹。在我看来，跨越时间空间，对优秀作品的认同还是同样的，因此《红楼梦》应该成为世界文化遗产。
I began to pay attention to the acceptance of A Dream of Red Mansions in the West very early. When it first entered the western world, it was not applauded until it was listed as a part of world literature, which lasted for many years. On the one hand, the complete translation did not appear until XX years; On the other hand, it is because many western sinologists and translators have an ethnocentric world outlook. They think that only local literature can be called world literature and turn a blind eye to other countries' literature. In my opinion, across time and space, the recognition of excellent works is the same, so A Dream of Red Mansions should become a world cultural heritage.
最后，中国文化作品的译介研究不能仅仅依靠本土研究者、译者，还需要目标语国家的同人鼎力相助。就《红楼梦》而言，对其翻译的研究不在少数，但遗憾的是，其中研究者多为中国学者，他们研究时没有与本土学者交流。但我认为，为了提升学术质量，中国学者的学术成果在发表前应由本土学者审查。无论如何，无论在中国还是在西方，一个新的领域就是小说的跨文化研究。
Finally, the translation and introduction of Chinese cultural works can not only rely on local researchers and translators, but also need the full help of colleagues in the target language countries. As far as A Dream of Red Mansions is concerned, there are not a few studies on its translation, but unfortunately, most of the researchers are Chinese scholars, and they did not communicate with local scholars during their research. However, I think that in order to improve the academic quality, the academic achievements of Chinese scholars should be reviewed by local scholars before publication. In any case, whether in China or in the West, a new field is the cross-cultural study of novels.

=9 提建议=
您自1990年代来华留学，在华生活多年。作为中西文化的“摆渡人”，您是如何坚持翻译中国经典著作的？您对中德文化交流的未来发展前景有何预见？[What is the future of China-Germany Exchange in your opinion? ]是否可以给年青一代的汉学家、翻译家提出一些建议？
题中的“摆渡人”形象很好，“摆渡人”的形象历来是正面的，在欧洲也是俗称的“好听话”，这也是世界文学中的典型主题。在近5000年前（公元前2600年）的文学作品《吉尔伽美什史诗》就讲述了摆渡人乌尔-萨纳比带国王渡过死亡之水的故事。摆渡人是两个世界的纽带，起着至关重要的作用。其实，译者本身就是一个“摆渡人”，他/她将作者的思想境界、梦境、想象告诉读者，把读者带入目标语环境之中。
The image of "ferryman" in the title is very good. The image of "ferryman" has always been positive. It is also commonly known as "good obedience" in Europe, which is also a typical theme in world literature. Nearly 5,000 years ago (2600 BC), the literary work "Gilgamesh Epic" tells the story of ferryman Ur Sanabi who took the king through the water of death. The ferryman is the link between the two worlds and plays a vital role. In fact, the translator himself is a "ferryman". He/she tells the reader the author's ideological realm, dreams and imagination, and brings the reader into the target language environment.
学生时代时我就发现，中国学生都知道歌德、莎士比亚、海涅，而西方几乎没有人知道屈原、李白、苏东坡、曹雪芹，对此我感到非常震惊。尽管翻译工作在西方不被视为学术研究，没有受到高度重视，但我个人把中国文学作品，特别是名著和经典作品翻译成德文看作毕生的事业。我还在德国维藤建立了一个翻译工作坊，专门鼓励年轻一代的毕业生，为他们争取翻译项目，通常是将中国文学作品译成德语和英语，目前已经翻译出了。。。。。。。。[What translations have been published/done in your translation workshop in Germany? ]
When I was a student, I found that Chinese students all knew Goethe, Shakespeare and Heine, while almost no one in the West knew Qu Yuan, Li Bai, Su Dongpo and Cao Xueqin. I was very shocked. Although translation is not regarded as an academic research in the West and is not highly valued, I personally regard the translation of Chinese literary works, especially famous works and classic works, into German as a lifelong career. I also set up a translation workshop in Witten, Germany, to encourage the younger generation of graduates and strive for translation projects for them. Usually, Chinese literary works are translated into German and English, which have already been translated. . . . . . . .
当然，从翻译的本质上来说，这是一项语言服务。没有这种服务，研究就无法实现。多了解中国文化，对德国文化没有坏处。而德国民众通常不懂中文，因此通过翻译获得资讯似乎是唯一方式。不过对于专业从事中国文学创作的人来说，当然建议掌握汉语能力，因为读原著永远比读译著更真实。
Of course, translation is essentially a language service. Without this service, research cannot be realized. Knowing more about Chinese culture will do no harm to German culture. German people usually don't understand Chinese, so getting information through translation seems to be the only way. However, for those who specialize in Chinese literary creation, it is of course recommended to master Chinese ability, because reading the original works is always more authentic than reading the translated works.
10. 作为世界汉学研究会会长，您组织了多场与汉学相关的国际会议，包括一年一度的世界汉学研究大会（WACS），持续向世界展示中华文化的魅力。您既是译者，又是研究者，您如何看待这两个身份之间的转换？您对从事译研结合的学者有何建议吗？
在西方，学者的地位普遍高于译者。不过，就我而言，译者的工作还是很重要的，因为科学有赖于源头的发展（The work of the translator is nevertheless important, since science depends on the development of sources.）。最重要的是，如果没有翻译，大众就无法认识和了解外国语言与文化。因此，我既做翻译，也做学术研究，一方面是有时在翻译的过程中发现某个学术研究的选题或者已有选题再翻译中找到了一个突破点；另一方面，有时做学术研究需要阅读一些中国文学作品，但发现并没有德译本，所以干脆自己动手翻译。
In the West, the status of scholars is generally higher than that of translators. However, as far as I am concerned, the translator's work is still very important, because science depends on the development of the source. Most importantly, without translation, the public cannot know and understand foreign languages and cultures. Therefore, I do both translation and academic research; On the one hand, I sometimes find a breakthrough point in the process of translation when I find a topic of an academic research or in the re-translation of an existing topic; On the other hand, sometimes it is necessary to read some Chinese literary works for academic research, but it is found that there is no German translation, so I simply translate it myself.
翻译批评现在在中国是比较热门的学术研究方向，拿《红楼梦》为例。我个人认为，做相关翻译批评的学者首先自己也应该是作家，有自己的代表作，或者翻译过一定的作品。此外，做翻译批评时最好将对象锁定为译本语言是母语的作品。如果一个人对自己的源语言掌握得很好，就能够分辨出字里行间的引申义和细微的差别，更好地评估选词、文体等是否得当。但可惜的是，中国红学届或者翻译学届几乎没有人具备这样的条件。
Translation criticism is now a popular academic research direction in China. Take a Dream of Red Mansions as an example. Personally, I think that scholars who do relevant translation criticism should first be writers themselves, have their own representative works, or have translated certain works. In addition, when making translation criticism, it is best to target works whose translation language is the mother tongue. If a person has a good grasp of his source language, he can distinguish the extended meaning and subtle differences between the lines, and better evaluate whether the choice of words and styles are appropriate. However, unfortunately, few people in the Chinese Redology or Translation Studies have such conditions.
我每年邀请100多位学术届同仁讲授他们各自领域的知识，主要是觉得做学问贵在终身学习。可以通过课程和会议间隙的讨论拓宽视野，有时不同领域的知识可以提供更广阔的研究视角。
Every year, I invite more than 100 academic colleagues to teach their knowledge in their respective fields, mainly because I think lifelong learning is the most important thing in learning. The horizon can be broadened through discussions between courses and conferences, and sometimes knowledge in different fields can provide a broader research perspective.
另外，我还建议做翻译的同仁一定要去原语/目标语国家生活一段时间。截至目前，我在中国生活了八年，每隔一段时间，新的表达方式都会扑面而来，每天都在学习，自然对我研究和翻译都有帮助。
In addition, I also suggest that colleagues who do translation must live in the source/target language countries for a period of time. Up to now, I have lived in China for eight years. Every once in a while, new expressions come to me and I study every day. Naturally, it is helpful for my research and translation.

=11 国际汉学中心=
11. 您是湖南师范大学“潇湘学者”特聘教授，并担任国际汉学中心主任。请问：该中心主要从事工作？您未来计划开展哪些项目推动中德文化交流？
国际汉学研究中心是国内国学与海外汉学研究的桥梁。来自世界各地、不同背景的学者，可以依托这个平台进行交流合作。我们从香港引进了来自美国的Margaret Chu，她在2021年初刚被聘为澳门科技大学副教授。她作为中心的兼职高级研究员，负责联系各国学者，评估和审阅中心的研究成果。朱女士还负责引进了许多同仁，包括来自牛津、加州和马萨诸塞州的同仁。另外，四位来自德国的学者已经被聘为外国语学院教授，其中两名也将加盟国际汉学研究中心。来自卡尔斯鲁厄的哲学家Ole Döring和来自杜塞尔多夫的历史学家Cord Eberspächer，他曾在那里担任孔子学院院长。中心的研究员正在共同构思编写《中国研究史》，包括有一卷总论和十卷单行本，该书预计将以英文、德文和中文同时出版。除此以外，中心正在研究四大名著，特别是《红楼梦》在西方的参与史。中心还正在积极翻译中国现当代文学作品和政治文献。
The International Sinology Research Center is a bridge between domestic Sinology and overseas Sinology research. Scholars from all over the world and from different backgrounds can rely on this platform for exchanges and cooperation. We introduced Margaret Chu from the United States from Hong Kong. She was just hired as an associate professor at Macau University of Science and Technology in early 2021. As a part-time senior researcher of the Center, she is responsible for contacting scholars from all over the world to evaluate and review the research results of the Center. Ms Zhu is also responsible for bringing in many colleagues, including colleagues from Oxford, California and Massachusetts. In addition, four scholars from Germany have been hired as professors of the Foreign Languages Institute, and two of them will join the International Sinology Research Center. Ole D ö ring, a philosopher from Karlsruhe, and Cord Ebersp ä cher, a historian from D ü sseldorf, where he served as the dean of Confucius Institute. Researchers at the Center are jointly conceiving the compilation of "History of Chinese Studies", including a general book and ten singles, which is expected to be published in English, German and Chinese at the same time. In addition, the center is studying the participation history of Four Great Classical Novels, especially A Dream of Red Mansions in the West. The Center is also actively translating modern and contemporary Chinese literary works and political documents.

=12. 结语=
12. 我们非常感佩您对中华文化的热爱、对推动中德文化交流做出的突出贡献！再次感谢您接受我的访问！祝您多结学术硕果！
谢谢你！的确，通过文化交往把人们团结起来，这是我们这个时代最重要的任务之一。许多国家都以自己的文化为荣。可是，没有任何一种文化逊色于其它文化，每种文化都有其独特的魅力，促进我们作为个人和整个人类的发展。我作为一个德国人，爱上了中国文化。如果其它国家的人也爱上了中国文化，中国人爱上了其它国家的文化，那么可以想见，整个人类文化必将绽放。这样，人们就能实现尊重和宽容。
Thank you! Indeed, uniting people through cultural exchanges is one of the most important tasks of our time. Many countries are proud of their own culture. However, no culture is inferior to other cultures, and each culture has its own unique charm, which promotes our development as individuals and as human beings as a whole. As a German, I fell in love with Chinese culture. If people from other countries also fall in love with Chinese culture and Chinese people fall in love with other countries' cultures, it is conceivable that the whole human culture will bloom. In this way, people can achieve respect and tolerance.

=12. 《红楼梦》跟今天国内外的读者有什么关系？=

Woesler: The novel is an embodiment of “Zeitgeist”.

吴漠汀：小说作为 "时代精神 "的体现。

According to Georg Lukács’ Theory of the Novel, while the Epos (like Homer’s Ilias, which like the Dream reasons the stories in the divine realm) displayed a holistic world experience, a complete, self-contained culture, the novel displays, that the modern world has become infinitely large and has lost its homely quality.

根据格奥尔格-卢卡奇的小说理论，虽然Epos（像荷马的伊利亚斯，它像梦理由神界的故事）展示了一个整体的世界经验，一个完整的，自足的文化，小说展示，现代世界已经变得无限大，已经失去了它的家的品质。

The novel as a genre is no longer documenting just one culture, but represents, with the words of Walter Benjamin, the Organon of History. So the understanding of the novel changed with Lukacs to historical-philosophically. A novel is understood as typical for its historical era, the novel embodies the spirit of the epoch (Zeitgeist).

小说作为一种文体，不再只是记录一种文化，而是用瓦尔特-本雅明的话说，代表了历史的有机体。所以，对小说的理解随着卢卡奇的改变，变成了历史哲学的理解。小说被理解为其历史时代的典型，小说体现了时代精神（Zeitgeist）。

The Red Chamber Dreams are written in front of the background of the Manchu minority having taken over the power in formerly Han-shaped Ming-China (which was a multi-ethnic and crosscultural society) and families suffering the changing favor of changing emperors, with the Cao family being fostered by Kangxi and being persecuted by Yongzheng.

《红楼梦》写的是满族少数民族在原汉字形的明中国（这是一个多民族、跨文化的社会）掌握了政权，家庭遭受换代皇帝的宠爱，曹家被康熙扶植，被雍正迫害的背景前。

While the author in his time could not criticize the system and power of emperors, in the novel he came to terms with this life by seeking the guilt for the persecution in the growing decadence of the family (engaging in Daoism, leisure, poetry-writing, arts and music instead of learning for being able to earn a living) and in himself not fulfilling the expectations as the family heir. This description of decadence of a declining family reminds us of the novels of Tschechov (and e.g. in the Buddenbrooks by Mann, including the turn to arts and music).

虽然作者在他的时代无法批判帝制和皇权，但在小说中，他为家族的日益衰败（参加道教、娱乐、诗歌、艺术和音乐活动，而不是为了谋生而学习）和自己作为家族继承人没有实现家族期望感到自责，通过这样做，他也对这种生活做妥协。这种对没落家族颓废状况的描写，让我们想起了契诃夫的小说（如曼恩的《布登布鲁克》，包括对艺术和音乐的转向）

Moreover, with the detailed description of life on all social levels in early Qing Dynasty, the Dream appears as a documentary historical novel very much like Günter Grass’ The Tin Drum 1959.

此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的《铁皮鼓1959》非常相似，《铁皮鼓1959》是一部纪实历史小说。

=13 中德文化交流=
我们非常感佩您对中华文化的热爱、对推动中德文化交流做出的突出贡献！再次感谢您接受我的访问！祝您多结学术硕果！

Wir bewundern Ihre Liebe zur chinesischen Kultur und Ihren herausragenden Beitrag zur Förderung des kulturellen Austauschs zwischen Deutschland und China! Nochmals vielen Dank für dieses Interview! Ich wünsche Ihnen viele akademische Erfolge!

Woesler: Vielen Dank! Tatsächlich sehe ich es als eine der wichtigsten Aufgaben unserer Zeit, Menschen zusammenzubringen. Viele Nationen sind stolz auf ihre Kultur. Inzwischen wissen wir, dass keine Kultur besser oder schlechter ist als eine andere. Aber es ist faszinierend, und es fördert unsere Entwicklung als Individuen und als Menschheit insgesamt, von den verschiedenen Kulturen zu wissen. Wenn sich wie ich als Deutscher in die chinesische Kultur, auf der ganzen Welt Chinesen in andere Kulturen und Angehörige anderer Kulturen in die chinesische verlieben, so führt dies zu einer Bereicherung und einem Erblühen menschlicher Kultur insgesamt. So können die Menschen das Beste, das in ihnen steckt verwirklichen: Respekt und Toleranz.

Woesler: Thank you very much! Indeed, I see it as one of the most important tasks of our time to bring people together. Many nations are proud of their culture. By now we know that no culture is better or worse than another. But it is fascinating, and it promotes our development as individuals and as humanity as a whole, to know about the different cultures. If, like me as a German, Chinese people fall in love with Chinese culture, and all over the world Chinese people fall in love with other cultures, and members of other cultures fall in love with Chinese culture, this leads to an enrichment and blossoming of human culture as a whole. In this way, people can realize the best that is within them: Respect and tolerance.

吴漠汀：非常感谢你! 的确，我认为这是我们这个时代最重要的任务之一，就是把人们团结起来。许多国家都以自己的文化为荣。现在我们知道，没有任何一种文化比另一种文化更好或更差。但它是迷人的，它能促进我们作为个人和整个人类的发展，了解不同的文化。当像我这个德国人一样，中国人爱上了中国文化，全世界的中国人爱上了其他文化，其他文化的成员爱上了中国文化，这就导致了整个人类文化的丰富和绽放。这样，人们才能实现自己内心的最佳状态。尊重和宽容。

=Notes about the intercultural approach=
==《红楼梦》与其他世界文学作品的相似性——推荐《红楼梦》列入世界记忆遗产名录 Commonness between the Red Chamber Dreams and other World Literature Novels – Proposing the Red Chamber Dreams to the World Documentary Heritage List==

吴漠汀，湖南师范大学 Martin Woesler, Hunan Normal University

==Abstract==
In every culture, readers associate the literature they know with new literature they read. So literature is always cumulative, it grows out of existing literature and can refer back to it. When Western readers read the Red Chamber Dreams, they foremost associate novels and other pieces of literature of their own cultural tradition with the Dreams. This has also influenced the first full translation into German.
Cao Xueqin and even more his protagonist Jia Baoyu both are early humanists, universalists and world citizens. The Red Chamber Dreams function worldwide. The Dream is a complex showroom of diverse aspects of Chinese cultures and is the embodiment and essence of Chinese cultures, but it has also a global impact, therefore it should be honoured as “World Documentary Heritage”.

==Key words==
Western culture, reception tradition, German translation, Embodiment of Chinese cultures, global compatibility, World Documentary Heritage

==摘要==
在每一种文化中，读者都会把他们读到的新文学与已知文学联系起来，所以文学总是积累的，它从现有的文学中生长出来，并以已有文学为参考。西方读者在阅读《红楼梦》时，首先会把《红楼梦》与自身文化传统中的小说和其他文学作品联系起来，这也影响了首次德语全译本。
曹雪芹，尤其是他的主人公贾宝玉，都是早期的人文主义者，普世主义者和世界公民。《红楼梦》具有普世价值。《红楼梦》综合展示了中国的多元文化，是中国文化的集中体现和精华，同时在全球范围内产生影响，理应列入世界记忆遗产名录。

==关键词==

西方文化，传统保护，德国翻译，中国文化具像化表现，全球兼容，世界遗产文献 --Weiyafei (talk) 07:10, 28 December 2020 (UTC)Wei yafei

==1. Chinese Ethics==

To help the poor and disadvantaged belongs to the traditional core values of Chinese culture.

When we sit in the Beijing Subway today, the loudspeaker announcement reminds us, that it is Chinese traditional ethics to give seats to the disadvantaged (老弱病残孕让座是中国传统道德). We know of Cao Xueqin, that he supported the poor and disadvantaged, and that he made kites for children.

However, when we look closer at these “Chinese Ethics”, we discover, that they are claimed also in Indian Buddhism “karuna” and in the Christian tradition of “caritas” and in almost every civilization. Therefore, we might call these values “human ethics”.

中国伦理“扶贫济困”是中国文化的传统核心价值观。当我们今天坐在北京地铁时，扬声器的公告提醒我们，让弱势群体有座位是中国传统道德。我们知道曹雪芹，他支持穷人和处境不利的人，他为孩子们制作风筝。但是，当我们仔细观察这些“中国伦理学”时，我们发现，印度佛教“ karuna”，基督教的“明爱”传统以及几乎所有文明中也都声称拥有它们。因此，我们可以将这些价值观称为“人类道德”。--Wen Xiaoyi (talk) 15:24, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

==2. Compatibility Why do the Red Chamber Dreams function worldwide and have achieved world literature status even in their translations?==

2. 兼容性为什么《红楼梦》在世界范围内广泛流传，甚至在翻译领域中也取得了世界文学的地位？

First of all, the Red Chamber Dreams are, like novels worldwide, a piece of entertainment literature. In comparison to the drama, in which every element is compulsory and plays its part in the overall structure, in the novel the line of action itself is simpler and not so important, most of the scenes or episodes are loosely put together and fit in the broader theme of the novel.

首先，《红楼梦》和世界小说一样，是一部娱乐文学。与戏剧中的每一个元素都是强制性的，在整体结构中起作用的戏剧相比，小说的行动路线本身更简单，也不那么重要，大部分场景或情节都松散地组合在一起，这和小说更广泛的主题相吻合。

However, the lose arrangement of episodes of the Dreams comes from the tradition of almost unconnected episodes like in the Shuihuzhuan and is a step towards the greater coherence of the episodes, the aligning into a story line and the greater concentration on fewer protagonists. Therefore, the Dreams show clearly a step towards the Western tradition of novels, maybe because of growing Western influence in Qing dynasty.

然而，《红楼梦》章回结构不连续来自于《水浒传》中几乎没有联系的章回的传统，这是朝着章回更连贯、与故事线一致以及更集中于较少主角的方向迈出的一步。因此，《红楼梦》明显向西方小说传统迈进了一步，可能是因为西方对清代的影响越来越大。

==3. Impact of translator’s native culture on the translation process==

3.译者的本土文化对翻译过程的影响

There are intercultural parallels between the Red Chamber Dreams and Western works of literature.

《红楼梦》和西方文学作品之间有跨国文化的相似之处。

These parallels are fundamental for the translation and were explicitly and implicitly fundamental for the German translator Martin Woesler during his translation and editorial work on the first full German translation. In the following, I will mention some of the Western novels and pieces of literature, which the Western reader of the Dreams will immediately think of.

这些相似之处是翻译的根本，也是德文译者马丁-沃斯勒在翻译和编辑第一部德文全译本时明确和隐含的根本。下面，我将提到一些西方的小说和文学作品，西方的读者读到梦会立即想到这些作品。

==4. The novel as embodiment of “Zeitgeist”==

4. 小说作为 "时代精神 "的体现。

According to Georg Lukács’ Theory of the Novel, while the Epos (like Homer’s Ilias, which like the Dream reasons the stories in the divine realm) displayed a holistic world experience, a complete, self-contained culture, the novel displays, that the modern world has become infinitely large and has lost its homely quality.

根据格奥尔格-卢卡奇的小说理论，虽然Epos（像荷马的伊利亚斯，它像梦理由神界的故事）展示了一个整体的世界经验，一个完整的，自足的文化，小说展示，现代世界已经变得无限大，已经失去了它的家的品质。

The novel as a genre is no longer documenting just one culture, but represents, with the words of Walter Benjamin, the Organon of History. So the understanding of the novel changed with Lukacs to historical-philosophically. A novel is understood as typical for its historical era, the novel embodies the spirit of the epoch (Zeitgeist).

小说作为一种文体，不再只是记录一种文化，而是用瓦尔特-本雅明的话说，代表了历史的有机体。所以，对小说的理解随着卢卡奇的改变，变成了历史哲学的理解。小说被理解为其历史时代的典型，小说体现了时代精神（Zeitgeist）。

The Red Chamber Dreams are written in front of the background of the Manchu minority having taken over the power in formerly Han-shaped Ming-China (which was a multi-ethnic and crosscultural society) and families suffering the changing favor of changing emperors, with the Cao family being fostered by Kangxi and being persecuted by Yongzheng.

《红楼梦》写的是满族少数民族在原汉字形的明中国（这是一个多民族、跨文化的社会）掌握了政权，家庭遭受换代皇帝的宠爱，曹家被康熙扶植，被雍正迫害的背景前。

While the author in his time could not criticize the system and power of emperors, in the novel he came to terms with this life by seeking the guilt for the persecution in the growing decadence of the family (engaging in Daoism, leisure, poetry-writing, arts and music instead of learning for being able to earn a living) and in himself not fulfilling the expectations as the family heir. This description of decadence of a declining family reminds us of the novels of Tschechov (and e.g. in the Buddenbrooks by Mann, including the turn to arts and music).

虽然作者在他的时代无法批判帝制和皇权，但在小说中，他为家族的日益衰败（参加道教、娱乐、诗歌、艺术和音乐活动，而不是为了谋生而学习）和自己作为家族继承人没有实现家族期望感到自责，通过这样做，他也对这种生活做妥协。这种对没落家族颓废状况的描写，让我们想起了契诃夫的小说（如曼恩的《布登布鲁克》，包括对艺术和音乐的转向）

Moreover, with the detailed description of life on all social levels in early Qing Dynasty, the Dream appears as a documentary historical novel very much like Günter Grass’ The Tin Drum 1959.

此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的《铁皮鼓1959》非常相似，《铁皮鼓1959》是一部纪实历史小说。

==5. Coming-of-age and Alienation==

5. 成熟和异化

Abandoning the paradise-like garden in the Red Chamber Dreams is a symbol for leaving the protected childhood and arriving in the complex world of adults. With George Lukács theory of the novel, the protagonist starts to problematize the sense of his life, in the novel, the protagonist’s self permanently struggles with his environment.

抛弃《红楼梦》中天堂般的花园，是离开受保护的童年，进入复杂的成人世界的象征。随着乔治·卢卡奇的小说理论，主人公开始对他的生活感觉产生疑问，在小说中，主人公的自我一直与他的环境作斗争。

However, Cao Xueqin’s message is not simply the one of “Paradise Lost”, instead he himself made the best out of his life. Although being less wealthy than when his family still enjoyed the favour of the emperor, there was a payroll system and a social net intact in Early Qing China, where he received enough income to be independent from his rich relatives, to be selective on accepting jobs, to live a relaxed life in a small house in the nature, spending time with his family and friends, follow his own interests, like reading, writing and drinking wine, making kites for the children and thinking of the disadvantaged.

然而，曹雪芹所传达的信息并不是简单的“失乐园”，相反，他把自己的生活过得很好。虽然比起他的家族享受皇帝的宠爱，他过得没有那么富裕，但清初中国有一套薪俸制度和一张完整的社会网，他获得了足够的收入，可以独立于富贵亲戚，可以有选择性地接受工作，可以在大自然的小房子里过着悠闲的生活，可以与家人和朋友共度时光，可以追随自己的兴趣，例如读书，写作和饮酒，可以为孩子们做风筝，可以为弱势群体着想。

Cao Xueqin was fully aware of his time and China’s cultural achievements, he was familiar with the different levels of society, he was a detailed observer and skilful narrator. He may have conceptualized the ending of the novel as a discussion about the different personalities of the characters in the novel and therefore displaying his reflection about life and his psychological understanding of the diversity of human nature. He was able to grasp the “spirit of time” (Zeitgeist) and with his autobiographical experience create an eternal coming-of-age novel not just for his family, for the Qing-Chinese, for Chinese people, but for mankind.

曹雪芹对自己所处的时代和中国的文化成就了如指掌，他熟悉社会的不同层面，他是一个细致的观察者和娴熟的叙述者。因此，他在小说中对人的不同个性的理解和对小说中人物性格的多样性进行了概念化的探讨。他能够把握“时代精神”，用他的自传体经历，不仅为他的家庭，为清朝的中国人，为中国人民，而且为人类，创作了一部永恒的成人小说。

This tradition of Coming-of-age novels is also a European one, like enlightenment philosopher Voltaire’s novel Candide or Optimism《老实人》shows at the very same time (1759) in Europe. Also Voltaire’s Candide has to leave the luxurious paradise of his childhood and strives for true love, but his main learning is more pessimistic, since Voltaire wrote the novel in opposition to Leibniz, who optimistically looked to China as “the best of all worlds”. Recent research findings show that China had a much larger influence on European enlightenment philosophers and we can be sure, that also Cao Xueqin was aware of some European literary traditions.

这种成熟的传统小说也是一个欧洲人,像启蒙运动哲学家伏尔泰在欧洲同时间出版的的小说《老实人》(1759年)。伏尔泰笔下的老实人不得不离开童年的奢华天堂，为追求真爱而奋斗，但他的主要学习内容却更为悲观，因为伏尔泰的小说与莱布尼茨截然相反，莱布尼茨乐观地认为中国是“所有世界中最好的”。最近的研究发现，中国对欧洲启蒙运动哲学家的影响要大得多，我们可以肯定，曹雪芹对欧洲的一些文学传统也有所了解。

Also the German readership is familiar with the chronological following of the life of the protagonist and his development, the fate of a family over generations, the German readership knows this type of novel as the “Education novel” or “Coming-of-age-novel”. In Germany, the genre of the coming-of-age novel has a long tradition and it is shaped more by single characters, who appear as teachers (Goethe: Wilhelm Meister’s Apprenticeship威廉·麦斯特的学徒岁月 1795-96, Novalis 诺瓦利斯: Heinrich von Ofterdingen 《海因利·封·歐福特丁根》1802).

德国读者对主人公的生平及其发展、家族世代的命运都很熟悉，德国读者把这种类型的小说称为“教育小说”或“成长小说”。在德国,关于成长小说的体裁有着悠久的传统,它的形状更由单个字符,它更多的是被塑造为教师的单个人物(歌德：'Wilhelm Meister’s Apprenticeship威廉·麦斯特的学徒岁月 1795-96, Novalis 诺瓦利斯: Heinrich von Ofterdingen《海因利·封·歐福特丁根》1802)。

Wilhelm Meister, parallely to Jia Baoyu, is struggling with the traditional education, in Wilhelm Meister this is represented with the classics revived in Shakespeare’s dramas. Tradition can give orientation, but the personality of the protagonist needs to develop through emancipation is a wisdom, we can learn from all mentioned novels including the Dreams.

==6. Pornography and True Love, female rivals==

Sexuality is a basic human need and has developed into different shapes in all cultures. The German audience is familiar with erotic topics from the Middle Ages, in which sexuality was stylized. In the “Schwänke” of the 15th century (Wittenwielers Ring), erotic scenes are described sexually explicit.

与贾宝玉一样，威廉·迈斯特也在与传统教育作斗争，在《威廉·迈斯特》中，莎士比亚戏剧中复兴的经典作品代表了这一点。传统可以给予导向，但主人公的个性需要通过解放来发展是一种智慧，我们可以从包括《梦》在内的所有小说中学习。 “6。色情与真爱，女性对手" 性是人类的一种基本需求，在各种文化中形成了不同的形态。德国观众熟悉中世纪的情色话题，在这些话题中，性是程式化的。在15世纪的“Schwanke”(Wittenwielers Ring)中，情色场景被描述为露骨的性。

In the barock literature of the 17th century even the physical act is described extensively.

在17世纪的Barock文学中，甚至对物理行为也进行了广泛的描述。

According to „cumulativity“, every human being is a product of history and literature is based on previous literature, therefore the author of this pager thinks that this background has to be taken into account while translating.

根据“累积性”，每个人都是历史的产物，而文学是基于先前的文献，因此，该传呼机的作者认为翻译时必须考虑这一背景。

The best study on qing passion in the Dreams is the one by Anthony Yu, who understood it as desire and as the central motif of the Dreams. „The centrality of qing in shaping virtually every aspect of The Story of the Stone’s structure and meaning cannot be denied [...].“ (Anthony Yu 2001, 54).

关于梦中关于“情”最好的研究是安东尼·于（Anthony Yu）的研究，他将其理解为欲望和梦的中心主题。 “清香在塑造《石头的故事》的结构和意义的几乎每个方面的中心作用都不能否认。”（Anthony Yu 2001，54）。

In the framework story of the Dreams, the narrator consciously takes a stand against low-action and stereotypical pornographic literature as well as against the widespread romance novels (with the classic roles of the beautiful, talented woman and the poor scholar who finally achieves a respected position and prosperity by passing a civil service exam).

在《梦》的框架故事中，叙述者有意识地反对低俗的动作和陈规定型的色情文学，反对流传甚广的浪漫小说（以美丽的才女和通过公务员制度最终获得受人尊敬的地位的穷困书生为经典角色）。

In chapter 1 he says: ”of the true feelings of young people [...] nobody has reported about so far.”

在第一章中，他说：“关于年轻人的真实感受，[……]到目前为止还没有人报道过。”

Erotic scenes are described in a decent and associative way (“Game of clouds and rain”), while displaying another quality in its openness e.g. towards bisexuality.

情色场景被描述成一个体面和联想的方式（“云和雨的游戏”），同时显示了另一个开放性的性质，例如对双性恋。

The 'Red Chamber Dream' narrates the story of unfortunate lovers. Unfortunate lovers also in the West have a literary tradition, they constitute an archetype, such as Hero and Leander, Pyramus and Thisbe, Tristan and Isolde, Flore and Blanscheflur as well as Troilus and Cressida, the latter being considered the model for Arthur Brookes, who wrote Romeo and Juliet in 1562 and thus directly influenced Shakespeare.

《红楼梦》讲述了一对不幸的恋人的故事。不幸的恋人也有西方文学的传统,他们构成一个原型,如英雄和利安得、皮拉摩斯和提斯柏,特里斯坦与伊索尔德,凝花和Blanscheflur特洛伊罗斯和克雷西达,后者被认为是阿瑟·布鲁克斯的模型,他在1562年写了《罗密欧与朱丽叶》,从而直接影响了莎士比亚。玛丽安·加利克认为《红楼梦》和《浮士德》都是吸引我们的永恒女性的中心主题，顾城则称其为“永恒的处女”。

While Marián Galik saw as the central topic of both, the Dream and Faust, the eternal feminine, which draws us on high, Gu Cheng called it the “eternal virgine”.

玛丽安·加利克（Mariann Galik）认为《梦》和《浮士德》都是吸引我们的永恒女性的中心主题，顾城则称其为“永恒的处女”。

In Goethe’s coming-of-age novel Wilhelm Meisters Wanderjahre, we find a similar motif of female rivals, in the Keller 凯勒 The Green Henry 《绿衣亨利》1855, the hero turns away from an emphatically sexually designed figure and turns to the 'real' woman. In Jane Austen’s Pride and Prejudice 1813 Elizabeth and Lin Daiyu are similar, e.g. they both strive for real love (Zhuang 2011).

在歌德的成长小说Wilhelm Meisters Wanderjahre中，我们发现了类似的女性竞争主题，在凯勒The Green Henry（《绿衣亨利》1855）中，男主人公父亲早亡，母亲养育其成人。在简-奥斯汀的Pride and Prejudice（《傲慢与偏见》1813）中，伊丽莎白和林黛玉是相似的，比如她们都追求真爱（庄2011）。

==7. Feudal society and slavery==

7. 封建社会和奴隶

A widespread interpretation is that Jia Baoyu’s equal treatment of family members and slaves would be a manifesto to free the slaves. I also do not share this interpretation, since Aristotle, when he demanded democracy, would exclude slaves from the right to vote. So we cannot use modern concepts to judge on the past. In my understanding, Jia Baoyu was not fighting inequality, but looked at the people as humans and individuals.

人们普遍认为贾宝玉对待家庭成员和奴隶的平等对待是解放奴隶的宣言。我不同意这种解释，因为亚里士多德吁民主时，会将奴隶从投票权中剔除。所以我们不能用现代观点评判古人。我认为，贾宝玉并不是在为不平等而做斗争，而是将人区分为人或是个体。

Also the understanding of the servants as slaves does not match the description in the Dream, since some servants had servants themselves, the family took care after they left the Jia family to find a match for them and Jia Zheng refers to his daughter Yingchun as „yatou 丫头“, so it is inappropriate to translate this expression with slave. Therefore, the translator preferred “servant” over “slave” in the translation.

而且把仆人理解为奴隶与《红楼梦》中的描写不符，因为有些仆人自己还有仆人，贾府会在她们离府的时候为她们寻一门亲事，作为贾府对她们的照料；贾政也把自己的女儿迎春喊作 “丫头”，所以把这些翻译成奴隶是不合适的。因此英文翻译中采用“servant”会比“slave”更为合适。

Mo Yan in his speech at the Frankfurt Bookfair in 2009, when China was the guest of honor, draws the (similarly) parallel between the Dream and Goethe’s Sorrows of the Young Werther, that both expressed the wish to abandon feudal society. My own impression is that both do not express this wish, but that this is a later concept and interpretation and we should not apply this to judge the past.

2009年，莫言代表中国作为主宾国参加法兰克福书展时，在演讲中把《红楼梦》和歌德的《少年维特之哀》画上了约等号，表达了抛弃封建社会的愿望。我自己的感觉是，两者都没有表达这个愿望，但这是后来的概念和解释，我们不应该以此来判断过去。

==8. Tragedy of all tragedies==

8.最悲剧的悲剧

Aristotle explained in On the Tragedy (Poetics VI), that tragedies move people more than comedies because they “imitate [mimēsis] an action that is serious, complete, and of a certain magnitude” (Aristotle 1971, 51), This high esteem of the tragedy in Europe is partly ascribed to the loss of Aristotle’s work On the Comedy.

亚里士多德在《悲剧论》（诗学VI）中解释道，悲剧之所以比戏剧更加动人，是因为它们“模仿（mimēsis）一种严肃、完整且具有一定规模的行动”（Aristotle 1971，51）。悲剧在欧洲拥有崇高地位部分归因于亚里士多德的作品《论喜剧》的失传。

While Europe has the Hamlet as its tragedy of all tragedies, the lack of tragic literature in Chinese literary tradition has long been lamented. Wang Guowei sees the Dream as "tragedy of all tragedies". To Wang Guowei the suffering of Faust and Jia Baoyu is central in the novels. However, many scholars contest that Faustianism is central for Chinese culture.

欧洲悲剧中以《哈姆雷特》为悲剧，而中国文学传统中悲剧文学的缺失，长期以来被人们所惋惜。王国维认为《梦》是“所有悲剧中的悲剧”。对王国维来说，浮士德和贾宝玉的苦难是小说的中心。然而，许多学者认为浮士德主义是中国文化的核心。

In 18th century Europe, we saw a new development in the genre of the drama, to establish a “bourgeois tragedy”.

在18世纪的欧洲，我们看到了戏剧体裁的新发展，确立了“资产阶级悲剧”。

It developed as an emancipatory movement in the 18th century in London, Paris and Germany, and demonstrated that tragedy was not reserved to rulers, but was also imagineable for lower noblemen and ordinary citizens. The Dream at the same time as the bourgeois tragedy in Europe shows a tragic story of a mid-level noble family which loses its titles and privileges.

它作为一场解放运动在18世纪的伦敦、巴黎和德国发展起来，并证明了悲剧并非只发生在统治者身上，也可能发生在下层贵族和普通公民身上。《梦》与欧洲资产阶级悲剧同时上演，讲述的是一个中层贵族家庭失去头衔和特权的悲剧故事。

==9. “Non-Binary” Novels==

9. “非二元”小说

One of the things attracting Western readers is the adorable but mysterious protagonist Jia Baoyu. With his open bisexual orientation and his interest in his mates regardless of their social status, he appears “modern” or at least displaced in time. His struggle with traditional learning makes him appear sympathetic, his long states of rapture out of the world give him both the aura of a timeless character and of mystery.

一个吸引西方读者的东西是可爱而神秘的主人公贾宝玉。由于他开放的双性恋倾向和他对伴侣的兴趣，不管他们的社会地位如何，他显得“现代”或至少在时间上流离失所。他与传统学习的斗争使他显得富有同情心，他从世界上长期的狂喜给了他永恒的性格和神秘的气息。

With the bisexual orientation of the Dreams’ protagonist, the novel appears non-binary. According to German sinologist Karl-Heinz Pohl (2018), binaries are just superficial, ultimately decisive is the Heart Sutra. Today, the novel is listed among the genre of non-binary literature (see e.g. the bibliographical list on https://www.goodreads.com/list/tag/non-binary), in which contrasts are dissolved deconstructivistically.

随着梦中主人公的双性取向，小说呈现出非二元性。德国汉学家卜松山(2018)认为，二进制只是表面现象，最终起决定性作用的是“心经”。今天，这部小说被列为非二元文学的一个流派（参见https://www.goodreads.com/list/tag/non-binary)，其中的反差被解构主义地化解了。

==10. Foreign Cultures in the Red Chamber Dreams==

10.红楼梦中的异邦文化

Foreign Cultures frequently appear in the Dreams in all kinds of varieties, like exoticism with the many objects in the household and presented to the household as novelties, especially the blond girl of the same age as Baoyu referred to in person (combining different origins and cultures, including European, Japanese, Chinese) or several times on paintings, one time shown with wings as an angel.

红楼梦中经常出现各种各样的异邦文化元素，例如许多贾府物品带有异国情调，并是以新奇的形式呈现给贾府的，尤其是其中提到的与宝玉同龄的金发女孩（结合了不同的来历和文化，包括欧洲，日本，中国），金发女孩也多次在绘画中出现，有一次是以带翅膀的天使的形象出现。

The playful combination of different traditions we can see also when a religious dress is described, which carries characteristics of different religions. Similarly, the Daoist monk and the Confucian priest appear together. Cao Xueqin wanted to show the richness and diversity, also with the many topics and societal levels of the novel. Even a variety of Christian motifs can be found, like when Jia Baoyu is not recognized by his father in chapter 120 and when he disappears, all parallel to Jesus Christ.

宗教服饰带有不同宗教的特点，在描述一种宗教服饰时，我们也能体味不同宗教传统的玩味结合。同样，道士和儒士也可一起出现。曹雪芹想表现出小说的丰富性和多样性，同时也要展现出小说的众多主题和社会层次。在书中甚至可以找到各种基督教的主题，比如第120章贾宝玉不被父亲认可，以及贾宝玉消失的时候，这些都与耶稣基督平行。

The variety of cultures is paralleled with the variety of elements of different dynasties, which makes it timeless and therefore even more a masterpiece of Chinese art and a masterpiece of human art. Therefore I would like to nominate the Red Chamber Dreams as “World Documentary Heritage”.

文化的多样性与不同朝代的元素多样性相辅相成，这种多样性便其变得永恒，甚至因此而成为中国艺术杰作和人类艺术杰作。因此，我想提名《红楼梦》为“世界纪录片遗产”。

==References 参考文献==

*Anthony, C. Yu. (2001). Rereading the Stone: Desire and the Making of Fiction in Dream of the Red Chamber. Princeton University Press.
*Aristotle. (1971). Poetics. Trans. S. H. Butcher. Ed. Hazard Adams. Critical Theory since Plato. ew York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 48-66.
*Woesler, Martin, ed., Cao Xueqin, Gao E et al. (2016). Der Traum der Roten Kammer oder Die Geschichte vom Stein [Red Chamber Dreams or The Story of the Stone], Peking: Foreign Languages Press, ISBN 9787119094120, 4813 pages, 6 vols., hardcover, transl. by Rainer Schwarz and Martin Woesler; Chinese-German bilingual edition
*Woesler, Martin. (2011). “Being Explicit About the Implicit – John Minford’s Translation of the last Forty Chapters of The Story of the Stone with a Field Study on two Sexually Arousing Scenes”. Hong lou meng xue kan 6: 274-289
*Woesler, Martin. (2010). “ ’To Amuse the Beaux and Belles’ The Early Western Reception of the Hongloumeng”. Journal of Sino-Western Communications 2 (2010.12) 2:81-107
*Zhuang, Xiuhua. (2011). Self, Ideal and Salvation: A Comparative Study of Jane Austen’s Elizabeth and Cao Xueqin’s Lin Daiyu. Journal of Language Teaching and Research, Vol. 2, No. 2, pp. 420-423, March 2011. Fulltext: http://www.academypublication.com/issues/past/jltr/vol02/02/19.pdf.

2021 Interview with Duan Yuanyuan

2021-03-04T13:43:34Z

Bebery: /* 10 国际汉学中心 */

'''访谈提纲 Interview with Martin Woesler by Duan Yuanyuan'''

=1 让·莫内讲席教授=
吴教授您好，非常感谢您拨冗接受我的访谈！首先恭喜您获得“让·莫内讲席教授”荣誉称号，此地位是欧盟对从事欧洲一体化教学与研究学者的最高学术承认！您真可谓是一位欧盟的学术大使！据悉，该项目申请难度颇大，中国今年只有湖南师范大学、四川大学和中国政法大学三所大学获得资助。您可否借此次获奖的机缘，说明你眼中中欧的学术交流呢？
不客气！的确，我把自己看作是中欧之间的“文化大使”，把这次获得“让·莫内讲席教授”称号看作是在华工作、学习、生活近三十年的一个阶段性总结。许多西方人认为在华生活是一个极大的挑战，对此我并不否认，但是挑战之余，我还从中看到了变革[What kind of transformation are we talking about here? ]的必要性，而且变革只有通过接触和交流才能实现。中国应该有更多的欧洲学者，中国也应该成为德国每一所大学亟需讨论的议题。
You're welcome! Indeed, I regard myself as a "cultural ambassador" between China and Europe, and I regard winning the title of "Professor Jean Monnet Lecture" as a phased summary of nearly 30 years of work, study and life in China. Many Westerners think that living in China is a great challenge, which I don't deny, but besides the challenge, I also see the necessity of change, and change can only be realized through contact and communication. There should be more European scholars in China, and China should also become an urgent topic for every German university to discuss.
欧盟委员会2020年在全球范围内授予了70个让·莫内教席，且每所大学最多可获一个名额。中国境内大学上次获得还是在2016年。“让·莫内讲席教授”传统上主要关注欧盟相关研究。现在欧盟委员会把这个奖项授予在中国任教的德国汉学家，这说明欧盟委员会已经认识到批判性地对比其它国家和欧盟发展模式的重要性。
In 2020, the European Commission awarded 70 Jean Monnet chairs worldwide, and each university can get up to one place. The last time universities in China won it was in 2016. Traditionally, "Professor Jean Monnet" mainly focuses on EU-related research. Now the European Commission has awarded this award to German sinologists who teach in China, which shows that the European Commission has realized the importance of critically comparing the development models of other countries with those of the European Union.
我不想把欧盟在中国的表现作为中国的反面典型，而是用批判性的眼光看待。中国学生正是通过批判性思维树立价值观。我曾做过调查，结果显示，很多中国学生认为欧盟的政治一体化还没有成功，英国脱欧反映了欧盟的软弱，但我想传达的知识是，欧盟已经在运作了，只是方式不同而已：即追求的不是快速而精干的决策过程，而是等待、讨论、参与和妥协。
I don't want to take the EU's performance in China as a negative example of China, but look at it critically. It is through critical thinking that Chinese students establish values. I have done a survey, and the results show that many Chinese students think that the political integration of the EU has not been successful, and Brexit reflects the weakness of the EU, but the knowledge I want to convey is that the EU is already in operation, only in different ways: it is not a fast and lean decision-making process, but waiting, discussing, participating and compromising.
同时，英国脱欧正表明欧盟每个成员都有随时离开的自由，这被视为一种成就。所以欧洲未必比中国差，只是不同而已。而当中国学生乐于接受不同的时候，他们的个性就会得到发展，成熟起来，适合国际就业市场。因此，我很鼓励学生去欧洲交换学习一两个学期。
At the same time, Brexit shows that every EU member has the freedom to leave at any time, which is regarded as an achievement. Therefore, Europe is not necessarily worse than China, it is just different. When Chinese students are willing to accept differences, their personalities will develop and mature, which is suitable for the international job market. Therefore, I encourage students to go to Europe for exchange study for one or two semesters.
申请“让·莫内讲席”项目时，我就在材料中表明该项目的落脚点在于中国和欧洲的比较，课题还囊括不同的教育体系、社会各领域的数字化以及对数据隐私的保护。通过该项目，我会推荐几名德国同事来中国短期或者长期工作，也会推荐中国同事去欧洲短期访学。并针对该项目，设置课程专题对比中欧近来的对外政策，以期激励中国塑造更加完整的海外形象。
When applying for the "Jean Monnet Lecture" project, I indicated in the materials that the foothold of the project lies in the comparison between China and Europe, and the topic also includes different education systems, digitalization in various fields of society and protection of data privacy. Through this project, I will recommend several German colleagues to work in China for a short or long time, and I will also recommend Chinese colleagues to visit Europe for a short time. In view of this project, a course topic is set up to compare the recent foreign policies of China and Europe, in order to encourage China to shape a more complete overseas image.

=2 《红楼梦》首次全译本=
2.您的代表作是《红楼梦》德语全译本，您是如何走上汉学之路的呢？可否谈谈与史华慈合译《红楼梦》的初衷？How did you begin to learn Chinese and how to stick to the path of sinology for so many years? Why did you choose to translate 红楼梦？
《红楼梦》的意义大于个人，是一件永恒的艺术品，应该提升到“世界遗产”的地位。目前，欧洲只有半数国家出版《红楼梦》译本。1989年我刚上大学的时候，德文版《红楼梦》也只有弗兰茨-库恩的节译本，共40章，只有原文体量的三分之一。与库恩的其他中国优秀小说译本在语言上几乎没有差别，带有浓厚的德国地方色彩。我也注意到了译文的不足之处。他把《红楼梦》书名中的“楼”翻译成“城堡”。这种译法也许比较适合欧洲读者的阅读口味，但就中国文化、中国历史、中国环境而言，我认为不太准确。这些不足之处也可解释为什么大卫-霍克斯和约翰-闵福德的译本在德国广受欢迎。
A Dream of Red Mansions is more meaningful than an individual. It is an eternal work of art and should be promoted to the status of "World Heritage". At present, only half of European countries have translated a Dream of Red Mansions. When I first went to college in 1989, the German version of a Dream of Red Mansions was only a flantz-Kuhn excerpt, with a total of 40 chapters, only one third of the original volume. There is almost no difference in language with Kuhn's other excellent Chinese novel translations, with strong German local color. I also noticed the shortcomings of the translation. He translated "Lou" in the title of A Dream of Red Mansions into "Castle". This translation may be more suitable for European readers, but I don't think it is accurate in terms of Chinese culture, Chinese history and Chinese environment. These shortcomings can also explain why the translations of David Hawkes and John Minford are so popular in Germany.
XX年/契机我开始重新翻译《红楼梦》。也是通过这个项目，我申请到了北京大学德意志学术交流中心（Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst，简称DAAD）奖学金。因此我也得以在北京大学学习X个月。[When did you study in Peking University? And for how long?]当时的选拔委员会主席是沃尔夫冈·顾彬（Wolfgang Kubin，中文名顾彬），他后来成为我的博士生导师之一。随后在北京，我多次参观了红楼梦研究所。参观之时张#送给我一本《红楼梦》辞典。后来回到德国，我与马汉茂（Helmut Martin）合作。从他那里我了解到，史华慈（Rainer Schwarz）已经将小说前80章翻译出来，并将自己的译文交给他出版，马汉茂让我审阅了史华兹的译本。不过译文暂未达到出版质量，[Can you give more details of why it can not be published yet? ]还需修订。
XX Year/Opportunity I began to retranslate A Dream of Red Mansions. It was also through this project that I applied for a scholarship from Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst (DAAD) of Peking University. So I was able to study at Peking University for X months. At that time, the chairman of the selection committee was Wolfgang Kubin (Chinese name Gu Bin), who later became one of my doctoral supervisors. Later in Beijing, I visited the Dream of Red Mansions Research Institute many times. During the visit, Zhang # gave me a dictionary of a Dream of Red Mansions. Later, when I returned to Germany, I cooperated with Helmut Martin. I learned from him that Rainer Schwarz had translated the first 80 chapters of the novel and gave him his own translation for publication. Ma Hanmao asked me to review Schwartz's translation. However, the translation has not yet reached the publishing quality and needs to be revised.
这次翻译尝试于我而言具有重大意义，我认为修改史华兹的译本使其达到出版水平比自己独立完成120章的翻译更重要。我花了几年时间修订史华兹的译文，随后自己翻译了后40回。然后按照前80回的风格重新修改我翻译的后40回，其中人名的翻译统一采用正式的拼音系统及其拼写方法，且并非采用标准的汉语拼音，而是按照德语书写方式，这样做的目的是尽可能地吸引更多读者的关注，且避免读者出现行文风格“跳脱”感受。
This translation attempt is of great significance to me. I think it is more important to revise Schwartz's translation to the publishing level than to complete the translation of 120 chapters independently. It took me several years to revise Schwartz's translation, and then I translated the last 40 times myself. Then I revised the last 40 times of my translation according to the style of the first 80 times, Among them, the translation of names adopts the formal Pinyin system and its spelling method, and does not adopt the standard Chinese Pinyin, but according to the German writing method. The purpose of this is to attract more readers' attention as much as possible, and to avoid readers' feeling of "jumping" in writing style.
现在，读者可获得完整、精细的译本，译本必要处附有注释。之后在XX年X月[When will the fifth edition be published? ]会出版第五版，该版本会根据读者意见和自己对原文的重新理解再进行改进。比如在我未出版的120章全译本中，很多人名的翻译也考虑到了名字的中文含义。[What amendments will you make in the fifth edition of the Chamber? Could you please list some? ]
Now, readers can get a complete and detailed translation, with notes where necessary. Then [when will the fifth edition be published? ] will publish the fifth edition, which will be improved according to readers' opinions and their own re-understanding of the original text. For example, in my unpublished full translation of 120 chapters, the translation of many names also takes into account the Chinese meaning of names. [What amendments will you make in the fifth edition of the Chamber? Could you please list some? ]

=3 欧洲红学=
3.您曾在国内红学权威刊物《红楼梦学刊》上发表过两篇文章，以德国人的视角叙述西方对《红楼梦》的了解，并介绍德译本情况以及西方学者的理解及评价。从这两篇文章可以看出，《红楼梦》在西方的传播已变换形式，由文本本身的传播向舞台剧等多模态形态发展。请问现今欧洲的红学研究、传播现状如何？您认为《红楼梦》对国内外读者有何影响？
小说是“时代精神”的体现。《红楼梦》于1791年首次出版，其创作背景是中国少数民族之一的满族统治下的清朝，曹家或受康熙宠信或备受雍正冷落以致抄家没落。囿于时代背景，作者在当时无法公开批判帝制皇权，但在小说中，他在家庭日益衰败（从事道教、闲暇、诗歌创作、艺术和音乐，而不是为了能够谋生而学习）和自己没有实现作为家族继承人的期望中，寻求被迫害的根源。这种对名家望族没落之路的描写使我们想起了契诃夫的小说。此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的纪实性历史小说《铁皮鼓》(1959年)非常相似。最值得一提的是《红楼梦》和托马斯·曼的《布登勃洛克一家》（1901年）。两部小说都描写了出生富贵的年轻一代人的颓废、没落、溃散，以及一个家族的社会地位和经济状况的逐渐没落与覆灭。托马斯·曼的小说是以资产阶级社会的巨大变革为背景，而曹雪芹的作品则选取了某个朝代的更迭时期作为时代背景，在其中帝王利益与家族利益发生了冲突! 有趣的是，两部作品中的主要角色都挑选了英年早逝的类似人物。《红楼梦》里林黛玉为情而亡，秦可卿因乱伦自尽，贾元春和妙玉也是突然死亡。在《布登勃洛克一家》里克拉拉在婚后不久即死于脑结核，托马斯在牙科手术后去世，汉诺死于伤寒。两部作品都在结构和主题上运用了影射等大量的艺术手法，以丰富的故事进展描绘出一幅衰败的景象。因此，这种并行发展令人惊讶，很难说《布登勃洛克一家》的创作没受到《红楼梦》的影响。
The novel is the embodiment of "the spirit of the times". A Dream of Red Mansions was first published in 1791. Its creation background was the Qing Dynasty under the rule of Manchu, one of China's ethnic minorities. The Cao family was either favored by Kangxi or neglected by Yongzheng, resulting in the decline of property ownership. Constrained by the background of the times, the author could not publicly criticize the imperial power at that time, but in the novel, he sought the root of persecution in the declining family (engaged in Taoism, leisure, poetry creation, art and music, instead of studying in order to make a living) and his failure to realize his expectation of being the heir of the family. This decadent description of declining families reminds us of Chekhov's novels. In addition, the detailed description of the life of all social strata in the early Qing Dynasty in A Dream of Red Mansions is very similar to Gunter Grass's documentary historical novel Tin Drum (1959). The most noteworthy ones are A Dream of Red Mansions and Thomas Mann's Budenbrock Family (1901). Both novels describe the decadence, decline and collapse of the wealthy young generation, as well as the gradual decline and collapse of a family's social status and economic situation. Thomas Mann's novels are set against the background of great changes in bourgeois society, while Cao Xueqin's works choose the change period of a certain dynasty as the background of the times, in which the interests of emperors and families conflict! Interestingly, the main characters in the two works have chosen similar characters who died young. In a Dream of Red Mansions, Lin Daiyu died of love, Qin Keqing committed suicide due to incest, and Jia Yuanchun and Miaoyu also died suddenly. In the Budenbrock Family, Clara died of brain tuberculosis shortly after marriage, Thomas died after dental surgery, and Hanno died of typhoid fever. Both works use a lot of artistic techniques such as innuendo in structure and theme, and depict a declining scene with rich story progress. Therefore, this parallel development is surprising. It is hard to say that the creation of the Budenbroc Family was not influenced by a Dream of Red Mansions.

4.您曾在欧洲多所学校任教，请问现今欧洲汉学的研究状况如何？
You have taught in many European schools. What is the current research status of Sinology in Europe?

=5 为何从古典文学的翻译转向中国现当代文学的翻译？=
除了《红楼梦》这一代表译作之外，您还翻译了包括鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱锺书、韩少功、贾平凹等在内的一批著名作家的优秀作品。可否谈谈为什么选择不同时代作家的作品？您又是如何再现他们不同的写作风格？[This question intends to know about why you choose to translate works of those writers. Is it because of personal interests or the publisher asking you to do so?
I think the section of Xu Zechen serves as good interview answers. As Chinese readers, we are desperate to know what things are like from Westerners’ perspective. ]
为何从古典文学的翻译转向中国现当代文学的翻译？
Why did you shift from the translation of classical literature to the translation of modern and contemporary Chinese literature?
不同时代的作品反映出不同的时代背景，这些作品对我个人而言是很好的窗口，可以窥探不同时期中国的社会面貌，还可与同期的欧洲文学进行比较。贾平凹作为20世纪80年代以来中国最伟大的作家之一，英译本很少。究其原因，首先在于他的作品植根于山西农村，带有浓重的地域风俗习惯。首先读懂原文对译者来说就是一项挑战，更不用提在译入语中找到对应的表达。我在翻译贾平凹的XX中就遇到了这个问题。。。。。。。。[Can you list some difficulties when translating Jia Pingwa’s or any other author’s works? We like the details.]
The works of different times reflect different backgrounds of the times. These works are a good window for me personally. I can spy on the social outlook of China in different periods and compare them with European literature in the same period. Jia Pingwa, as one of the greatest writers in China since 1980s, has few English versions. The reason lies in the fact that his works are rooted in Shanxi rural areas and have strong regional customs. It is a challenge for translators to understand the original text first, not to mention finding the corresponding expression in the target language. I encountered this problem in translating Jia Pingwa's XX. . . . . . . .
对于译者来说，翻译不同作者的作品时面对的翻译难点不同。而不同的译者有着不同的处理方式，这也能解释为何同一部作品有几个翻译版本，且翻译策略各有不同。我深知译者的文化背景对译本翻译策略的选择有很大影响，所以有些作品即便存在译本，我还是选择重新翻译。从鲁迅的短篇小说中，我们可以读出作者内心的矛盾：文学能改变世界吗？难道一定要身体力行才能改变世界吗？难道连唤醒那些像阿Q一样任由自己被牵着走，任人宰割的昏昏欲睡的同胞们也能做到吗？当无法改变自己和社会的命运时，唤醒他们还有什么用呢？作为译者，我们如何再现这种矛盾心理，如何处理鲁迅在翻译中有些古板的早期白话，如何与他对日常政治事件的论述。这些都是翻译中必不可免的问题。目前已有的鲁迅作品德译本在这些方面的处理方式多样。巴金在受到批评后修改了三部曲之一的《家》，删除了缠足现象。在翻译这部作品的过程中，译者必须决定是翻译原版还是删减后的版本。
For translators, translation difficulties are different when translating works of different authors. Different translators have different ways of dealing with it, which can explain why there are several translated versions of the same work and the translation strategies are different. I know that the translator's cultural background has a great influence on the choice of translation strategies, so I choose to retranslate some works even if there are translations. From Lu Xun's short stories, we can read the author's inner contradiction: Can literature change the world? Do you have to practice to change the world? Can we even wake up those sleepy compatriots who let themselves be led and slaughtered like Ah Q? What's the use of awakening them when they can't change their own destiny and that of society? As translators, how do we reproduce this ambivalence, how do we deal with Lu Xun's rigid early vernacular in translation, and how do we communicate with his exposition of daily political events? These are all inevitable problems in translation. At present, the existing German versions of Lu Xun's works deal with these aspects in various ways. After being criticized, Ba Jin revised Home, one of the trilogy, and deleted foot binding. In the process of translating this work, the translator must decide whether to translate the original version or the abridged version.
我个人很喜欢徐则臣的作品。在2009年（北上2015年才出版）[Is this book called <北上>？]的法兰克福书展上，他的故事《北上》受到广泛好评。事实上，他的生活经历与我有些重叠部分。我们都在北京大学学习过，只不过他比我早入学一点（多久）。当时校园里有一种亚文化，博士生们住在餐厅旁边的闲置房间里，因为他们对大学里的人、办事流程了如指掌，而且在独立的诗歌和艺术界也有联系，所以每逢有聚会，他们都很抢手，大家竞相邀请他们参加聚会。那时的大学涌现着一股乐观主义的精神，起初门外涌现出私营商业市场，后来校园里传出“开公司”的口号。那时，毕业生不愿毕业就被分入特定的工作岗位，身上的自由和责任感促使他们闯一闯这个世界。故事里拿着盗版产品的街边小贩和软件开发产品的学生先锋也是这幅画的一部分。徐则臣将这种气氛真实地捕捉到，令人信服。他笔下的人物在我们心上扎根，爱上他们，学会在生活中打拼。也是这种情感体验上的共鸣促使我翻译《北上》这部作品。
Personally, I like Xu Zechen's works very much. At the Frankfurt Book Fair in 2009 (published in 2015), his story "Going North" was widely praised. In fact, his life experience overlaps with mine. We all studied at Peking University, but he entered school a little earlier than me. At that time, there was a subculture on campus. Doctoral students lived in idle rooms next to restaurants. Because they knew the people and procedures in the university like the back of their hand, and they also had contacts in independent poetry and art circles, they were very popular whenever there was a party, and everyone invited them to attend the party. At that time, there was a spirit of optimism in universities. At first, private commercial markets emerged outside the doors. Later, the slogan of "starting a company" came out on campus. At that time, graduates were assigned to specific jobs without graduating, and their freedom and sense of responsibility prompted them to enter the world. Street vendors with pirated products and student pioneers with software development products in the story are also part of this painting. Xu Zechen captured this atmosphere truly and convincingly. His characters take root in our hearts, fall in love with them and learn to work hard in life. It is also this resonance in emotional experience that prompted me to translate the work "North".

=6 跨文化身份=
6. 作为汉学家和翻译家，您的跨文化身份让你置身于东西方文明之间。当您从欧洲文化和文学背景来到中国的文化和文学背景中，在两种迥异的语言之间进行转换，是否感到自己的思维方式和行文风格发生了些许改变？[This question asks you whether living in China for almost eight years affects your translating ideologies? Is there any difference if you only learned Chinese but never lived in China for such a long time? ]

=7 中西合璧=
有人认为中华文化走出去最好的译介模式是“中西合璧”，如葛浩文和林丽君的译作在国内外产生了较大影响。您对此有何看法？[I think this answer is rather insufficient. ]
什么是理想的译者？韦努蒂认为译者应该是隐身的，看不见的。如果读者没有注意到所读文本是一个译本，那么译者就达到了完美的境界。我认为，原语文化的译者在理解原文上的确更占优势，但是在传达上就不如来自目标语文化的译者，只有这样的译者才能向目标读者传达想要传达的形象。已经掌握了两种文化和语言的人来做译者是最合适不过的。当然，如果译者本身就是作家就更好了，这样翻译出来的译文想必更贴近原作。
What is an ideal translator? Venuti believes that translators should be invisible and invisible. If the reader doesn't notice that the text he reads is a translation, then the translator has reached a perfect state. In my opinion, the translator of the source language culture does have an advantage in understanding the original text, but he is not as good as the translator from the target language culture in conveying it. Only in this way can the translator convey the image he wants to convey to the target readers. People who have mastered both cultures and languages are the most suitable translators. Of course, it would be better if the translator himself was a writer, so the translated version must be closer to the original.
译文总是一种新的创造，它在文字上不能再模仿原文，而在功能、效果等方面却可以再现原文的特点，所以葛浩文和林丽君这样的“中西合璧”的组合在翻译极具中国特色的作品时应该会比较合适。
Translation is always a new creation. It can no longer imitate the original text in words, but can reproduce the characteristics of the original text in terms of function and effect. Therefore, the combination of "Chinese and Western combination" such as Ge Haowen and Lin Lijun should be more appropriate when translating works with Chinese characteristics.

=8 中华文化外译传播=
8. 根据您的实践经验和理性思考，中华文化外译传播有哪些成功因素?
首先，对于普通读者而言，接受《红楼梦》第一步就必须有可读的译本，因此《红楼梦》在其它没有译本的国家的传播有赖于译者的工作。我认为等待引进不如主动输出。这样成功的例子不是没有。20世纪80年代，杨宪益倡议出版熊猫丛书，意在向国外译介中国当代、现代和古代的优秀作品，所出版的杂志和从书在国外有相当大的影响，几乎成为很长时期内国外研究中国汉学、对中国文学有兴趣的人了解中国文学的唯一的窗口。因此，中国相关机构可借鉴当时的经验，在还没有译本的欧洲国家作出尝试。
First of all, for ordinary readers, the first step to accept a Dream of Red Mansions is to have a readable translation, so the dissemination of a Dream of Red Mansions in other countries without a translation depends on the translator's work. I think it is better to take the initiative to export than to wait for import. There are not no such successful examples. In 1980s, Yang Xianyi initiated the publication of Panda Series, aiming at translating and introducing excellent works of contemporary, modern and ancient China to foreign countries. The published magazines and books have a considerable influence abroad, and have almost become the only window for people who study Chinese Sinology abroad and are interested in Chinese literature to understand Chinese literature for a long time. Therefore, relevant Chinese institutions can learn from the experience at that time and try in European countries that have not yet translated them.
其次，西方尤其是美国的《红楼梦》研究开始用现代理论解读《红楼梦》，如 “感觉”、“同性恋”等。因此在每隔几年举办一次的红学会议上，整理以前的研究，撰写一部西方学术界与小说接触史就显得十分重要。
Secondly, the study of "A Dream of Red Mansions" in the West, especially in the United States, began to interpret "A Dream of Red Mansions" with modern theories, such as "feeling" and "homosexuality". Therefore, it is very important to sort out the previous research and write a history of contact between western academic circles and novels at the Redology Conference held every few years.
我很早就开始关注《红楼梦》在西方的接受情况。其刚进入西方世界之时并不是一片叫好，直至被列为世界文学的一部分，这一过程持续了很多年。一方面是因为完整的译本直至XX年才出现，另一方面是因为许多西方汉学家和译者的民族中心主义世界观，他们认为只有本土的文学才称得上世界文学，而对别国文学视若无睹。在我看来，跨越时间空间，对优秀作品的认同还是同样的，因此《红楼梦》应该成为世界文化遗产。
I began to pay attention to the acceptance of A Dream of Red Mansions in the West very early. When it first entered the western world, it was not applauded until it was listed as a part of world literature, which lasted for many years. On the one hand, the complete translation did not appear until XX years; On the other hand, it is because many western sinologists and translators have an ethnocentric world outlook. They think that only local literature can be called world literature and turn a blind eye to other countries' literature. In my opinion, across time and space, the recognition of excellent works is the same, so A Dream of Red Mansions should become a world cultural heritage.
最后，中国文化作品的译介研究不能仅仅依靠本土研究者、译者，还需要目标语国家的同人鼎力相助。就《红楼梦》而言，对其翻译的研究不在少数，但遗憾的是，其中研究者多为中国学者，他们研究时没有与本土学者交流。但我认为，为了提升学术质量，中国学者的学术成果在发表前应由本土学者审查。无论如何，无论在中国还是在西方，一个新的领域就是小说的跨文化研究。
Finally, the translation and introduction of Chinese cultural works can not only rely on local researchers and translators, but also need the full help of colleagues in the target language countries. As far as A Dream of Red Mansions is concerned, there are not a few studies on its translation, but unfortunately, most of the researchers are Chinese scholars, and they did not communicate with local scholars during their research. However, I think that in order to improve the academic quality, the academic achievements of Chinese scholars should be reviewed by local scholars before publication. In any case, whether in China or in the West, a new field is the cross-cultural study of novels.

=9 提建议=
您自1990年代来华留学，在华生活多年。作为中西文化的“摆渡人”，您是如何坚持翻译中国经典著作的？您对中德文化交流的未来发展前景有何预见？[What is the future of China-Germany Exchange in your opinion? ]是否可以给年青一代的汉学家、翻译家提出一些建议？
题中的“摆渡人”形象很好，“摆渡人”的形象历来是正面的，在欧洲也是俗称的“好听话”，这也是世界文学中的典型主题。在近5000年前（公元前2600年）的文学作品《吉尔伽美什史诗》就讲述了摆渡人乌尔-萨纳比带国王渡过死亡之水的故事。摆渡人是两个世界的纽带，起着至关重要的作用。其实，译者本身就是一个“摆渡人”，他/她将作者的思想境界、梦境、想象告诉读者，把读者带入目标语环境之中。
The image of "ferryman" in the title is very good. The image of "ferryman" has always been positive. It is also commonly known as "good obedience" in Europe, which is also a typical theme in world literature. Nearly 5,000 years ago (2600 BC), the literary work "Gilgamesh Epic" tells the story of ferryman Ur Sanabi who took the king through the water of death. The ferryman is the link between the two worlds and plays a vital role. In fact, the translator himself is a "ferryman". He/she tells the reader the author's ideological realm, dreams and imagination, and brings the reader into the target language environment.
学生时代时我就发现，中国学生都知道歌德、莎士比亚、海涅，而西方几乎没有人知道屈原、李白、苏东坡、曹雪芹，对此我感到非常震惊。尽管翻译工作在西方不被视为学术研究，没有受到高度重视，但我个人把中国文学作品，特别是名著和经典作品翻译成德文看作毕生的事业。我还在德国维藤建立了一个翻译工作坊，专门鼓励年轻一代的毕业生，为他们争取翻译项目，通常是将中国文学作品译成德语和英语，目前已经翻译出了。。。。。。。。[What translations have been published/done in your translation workshop in Germany? ]
When I was a student, I found that Chinese students all knew Goethe, Shakespeare and Heine, while almost no one in the West knew Qu Yuan, Li Bai, Su Dongpo and Cao Xueqin. I was very shocked. Although translation is not regarded as an academic research in the West and is not highly valued, I personally regard the translation of Chinese literary works, especially famous works and classic works, into German as a lifelong career. I also set up a translation workshop in Witten, Germany, to encourage the younger generation of graduates and strive for translation projects for them. Usually, Chinese literary works are translated into German and English, which have already been translated. . . . . . . .
当然，从翻译的本质上来说，这是一项语言服务。没有这种服务，研究就无法实现。多了解中国文化，对德国文化没有坏处。而德国民众通常不懂中文，因此通过翻译获得资讯似乎是唯一方式。不过对于专业从事中国文学创作的人来说，当然建议掌握汉语能力，因为读原著永远比读译著更真实。
Of course, translation is essentially a language service. Without this service, research cannot be realized. Knowing more about Chinese culture will do no harm to German culture. German people usually don't understand Chinese, so getting information through translation seems to be the only way. However, for those who specialize in Chinese literary creation, it is of course recommended to master Chinese ability, because reading the original works is always more authentic than reading the translated works.
10. 作为世界汉学研究会会长，您组织了多场与汉学相关的国际会议，包括一年一度的世界汉学研究大会（WACS），持续向世界展示中华文化的魅力。您既是译者，又是研究者，您如何看待这两个身份之间的转换？您对从事译研结合的学者有何建议吗？
在西方，学者的地位普遍高于译者。不过，就我而言，译者的工作还是很重要的，因为科学有赖于源头的发展（The work of the translator is nevertheless important, since science depends on the development of sources.）。最重要的是，如果没有翻译，大众就无法认识和了解外国语言与文化。因此，我既做翻译，也做学术研究，一方面是有时在翻译的过程中发现某个学术研究的选题或者已有选题再翻译中找到了一个突破点；另一方面，有时做学术研究需要阅读一些中国文学作品，但发现并没有德译本，所以干脆自己动手翻译。
In the West, the status of scholars is generally higher than that of translators. However, as far as I am concerned, the translator's work is still very important, because science depends on the development of the source. Most importantly, without translation, the public cannot know and understand foreign languages and cultures. Therefore, I do both translation and academic research; On the one hand, I sometimes find a breakthrough point in the process of translation when I find a topic of an academic research or in the re-translation of an existing topic; On the other hand, sometimes it is necessary to read some Chinese literary works for academic research, but it is found that there is no German translation, so I simply translate it myself.
翻译批评现在在中国是比较热门的学术研究方向，拿《红楼梦》为例。我个人认为，做相关翻译批评的学者首先自己也应该是作家，有自己的代表作，或者翻译过一定的作品。此外，做翻译批评时最好将对象锁定为译本语言是母语的作品。如果一个人对自己的源语言掌握得很好，就能够分辨出字里行间的引申义和细微的差别，更好地评估选词、文体等是否得当。但可惜的是，中国红学届或者翻译学届几乎没有人具备这样的条件。
Translation criticism is now a popular academic research direction in China. Take a Dream of Red Mansions as an example. Personally, I think that scholars who do relevant translation criticism should first be writers themselves, have their own representative works, or have translated certain works. In addition, when making translation criticism, it is best to target works whose translation language is the mother tongue. If a person has a good grasp of his source language, he can distinguish the extended meaning and subtle differences between the lines, and better evaluate whether the choice of words and styles are appropriate. However, unfortunately, few people in the Chinese Redology or Translation Studies have such conditions.
我每年邀请100多位学术届同仁讲授他们各自领域的知识，主要是觉得做学问贵在终身学习。可以通过课程和会议间隙的讨论拓宽视野，有时不同领域的知识可以提供更广阔的研究视角。
Every year, I invite more than 100 academic colleagues to teach their knowledge in their respective fields, mainly because I think lifelong learning is the most important thing in learning. The horizon can be broadened through discussions between courses and conferences, and sometimes knowledge in different fields can provide a broader research perspective.
另外，我还建议做翻译的同仁一定要去原语/目标语国家生活一段时间。截至目前，我在中国生活了八年，每隔一段时间，新的表达方式都会扑面而来，每天都在学习，自然对我研究和翻译都有帮助。
In addition, I also suggest that colleagues who do translation must live in the source/target language countries for a period of time. Up to now, I have lived in China for eight years. Every once in a while, new expressions come to me and I study every day. Naturally, it is helpful for my research and translation.

=11 国际汉学中心=
11. 您是湖南师范大学“潇湘学者”特聘教授，并担任国际汉学中心主任。请问：该中心主要从事工作？您未来计划开展哪些项目推动中德文化交流？
国际汉学研究中心是国内国学与海外汉学研究的桥梁。来自世界各地、不同背景的学者，可以依托这个平台进行交流合作。我们从香港引进了来自美国的Margaret Chu，她在2021年初刚被聘为澳门科技大学副教授。她作为中心的兼职高级研究员，负责联系各国学者，评估和审阅中心的研究成果。朱女士还负责引进了许多同仁，包括来自牛津、加州和马萨诸塞州的同仁。另外，四位来自德国的学者已经被聘为外国语学院教授，其中两名也将加盟国际汉学研究中心。来自卡尔斯鲁厄的哲学家Ole Döring和来自杜塞尔多夫的历史学家Cord Eberspächer，他曾在那里担任孔子学院院长。中心的研究员正在共同构思编写《中国研究史》，包括有一卷总论和十卷单行本，该书预计将以英文、德文和中文同时出版。除此以外，中心正在研究四大名著，特别是《红楼梦》在西方的参与史。中心还正在积极翻译中国现当代文学作品和政治文献。
The International Sinology Research Center is a bridge between domestic Sinology and overseas Sinology research. Scholars from all over the world and from different backgrounds can rely on this platform for exchanges and cooperation. We introduced Margaret Chu from the United States from Hong Kong. She was just hired as an associate professor at Macau University of Science and Technology in early 2021. As a part-time senior researcher of the Center, she is responsible for contacting scholars from all over the world to evaluate and review the research results of the Center. Ms Zhu is also responsible for bringing in many colleagues, including colleagues from Oxford, California and Massachusetts. In addition, four scholars from Germany have been hired as professors of the Foreign Languages Institute, and two of them will join the International Sinology Research Center. Ole D ö ring, a philosopher from Karlsruhe, and Cord Ebersp ä cher, a historian from D ü sseldorf, where he served as the dean of Confucius Institute. Researchers at the Center are jointly conceiving the compilation of "History of Chinese Studies", including a general book and ten singles, which is expected to be published in English, German and Chinese at the same time. In addition, the center is studying the participation history of Four Great Classical Novels, especially A Dream of Red Mansions in the West. The Center is also actively translating modern and contemporary Chinese literary works and political documents.

=11. 曹雪芹和跨国文化=
从跨国文化的角度看曹雪芹你有合想法？

Woesler: Cao Xueqin and even more his protagonist Jia Baoyu both are early humanists, universalists and world citizens. The Red Chamber Dreams function worldwide. The Dream is a complex showroom of diverse aspects of Chinese cultures and is the embodiment and essence of Chinese cultures, but it has also a global impact, therefore it should be honoured as “World Documentary Heritage”.

吴漠汀：曹雪芹，尤其是他的主人公贾宝玉，都是早期的人文主义者，普世主义者和世界公民。《红楼梦》具有普世价值。《红楼梦》综合展示了中国的多元文化，是中国文化的集中体现和精华，同时在全球范围内产生影响，理应列入世界记忆遗产名录。

Cao Xueqin’s message is not simply the one of “Paradise Lost”, instead he himself made the best out of his life. Although being less wealthy than when his family still enjoyed the favour of the emperor, there was a payroll system and a social net intact in Early Qing China, where he received enough income to be independent from his rich relatives, to be selective on accepting jobs, to live a relaxed life in a small house in the nature, spending time with his family and friends, follow his own interests, like reading, writing and drinking wine, making kites for the children and thinking of the disadvantaged.

曹雪芹所传达的信息并不是简单的“失乐园”，相反，他把自己的生活过得很好。虽然比起他的家族享受皇帝的宠爱，他过得没有那么富裕，但清初中国有一套薪俸制度和一张完整的社会网，他获得了足够的收入，可以独立于富贵亲戚，可以有选择性地接受工作，可以在大自然的小房子里过着悠闲的生活，可以与家人和朋友共度时光，可以追随自己的兴趣，例如读书，写作和饮酒，可以为孩子们做风筝，可以为弱势群体着想。

Cao Xueqin was fully aware of his time and China’s cultural achievements, he was familiar with the different levels of society, he was a detailed observer and skilful narrator. He may have conceptualized the ending of the novel as a discussion about the different personalities of the characters in the novel and therefore displaying his reflection about life and his psychological understanding of the diversity of human nature. He was able to grasp the “spirit of time” (Zeitgeist) and with his autobiographical experience create an eternal coming-of-age novel not just for his family, for the Qing-Chinese, for Chinese people, but for mankind.

曹雪芹对自己所处的时代和中国的文化成就了如指掌，他熟悉社会的不同层面，他是一个细致的观察者和娴熟的叙述者。因此，他在小说中对人的不同个性的理解和对小说中人物性格的多样性进行了概念化的探讨。他能够把握“时代精神”，用他的自传体经历，不仅为他的家庭，为清朝的中国人，为中国人民，而且为人类，创作了一部永恒的成人小说。

This tradition of Coming-of-age novels is also a European one, like enlightenment philosopher Voltaire’s novel Candide or Optimism《老实人》shows at the very same time (1759) in Europe. Also Voltaire’s Candide has to leave the luxurious paradise of his childhood and strives for true love, but his main learning is more pessimistic, since Voltaire wrote the novel in opposition to Leibniz, who optimistically looked to China as “the best of all worlds”. Recent research findings show that China had a much larger influence on European enlightenment philosophers and we can be sure, that also Cao Xueqin was aware of some European literary traditions.

这种成熟的传统小说也是一个欧洲人,像启蒙运动哲学家伏尔泰在欧洲同时间出版的的小说《老实人》(1759年)。伏尔泰笔下的老实人不得不离开童年的奢华天堂，为追求真爱而奋斗，但他的主要学习内容却更为悲观，因为伏尔泰的小说与莱布尼茨截然相反，莱布尼茨乐观地认为中国是“所有世界中最好的”。最近的研究发现，中国对欧洲启蒙运动哲学家的影响要大得多，我们可以肯定，曹雪芹对欧洲的一些文学传统也有所了解。

=12. 《红楼梦》跟今天国内外的读者有什么关系？=

Woesler: The novel is an embodiment of “Zeitgeist”.

吴漠汀：小说作为 "时代精神 "的体现。

According to Georg Lukács’ Theory of the Novel, while the Epos (like Homer’s Ilias, which like the Dream reasons the stories in the divine realm) displayed a holistic world experience, a complete, self-contained culture, the novel displays, that the modern world has become infinitely large and has lost its homely quality.

根据格奥尔格-卢卡奇的小说理论，虽然Epos（像荷马的伊利亚斯，它像梦理由神界的故事）展示了一个整体的世界经验，一个完整的，自足的文化，小说展示，现代世界已经变得无限大，已经失去了它的家的品质。

The novel as a genre is no longer documenting just one culture, but represents, with the words of Walter Benjamin, the Organon of History. So the understanding of the novel changed with Lukacs to historical-philosophically. A novel is understood as typical for its historical era, the novel embodies the spirit of the epoch (Zeitgeist).

小说作为一种文体，不再只是记录一种文化，而是用瓦尔特-本雅明的话说，代表了历史的有机体。所以，对小说的理解随着卢卡奇的改变，变成了历史哲学的理解。小说被理解为其历史时代的典型，小说体现了时代精神（Zeitgeist）。

The Red Chamber Dreams are written in front of the background of the Manchu minority having taken over the power in formerly Han-shaped Ming-China (which was a multi-ethnic and crosscultural society) and families suffering the changing favor of changing emperors, with the Cao family being fostered by Kangxi and being persecuted by Yongzheng.

《红楼梦》写的是满族少数民族在原汉字形的明中国（这是一个多民族、跨文化的社会）掌握了政权，家庭遭受换代皇帝的宠爱，曹家被康熙扶植，被雍正迫害的背景前。

While the author in his time could not criticize the system and power of emperors, in the novel he came to terms with this life by seeking the guilt for the persecution in the growing decadence of the family (engaging in Daoism, leisure, poetry-writing, arts and music instead of learning for being able to earn a living) and in himself not fulfilling the expectations as the family heir. This description of decadence of a declining family reminds us of the novels of Tschechov (and e.g. in the Buddenbrooks by Mann, including the turn to arts and music).

虽然作者在他的时代无法批判帝制和皇权，但在小说中，他为家族的日益衰败（参加道教、娱乐、诗歌、艺术和音乐活动，而不是为了谋生而学习）和自己作为家族继承人没有实现家族期望感到自责，通过这样做，他也对这种生活做妥协。这种对没落家族颓废状况的描写，让我们想起了契诃夫的小说（如曼恩的《布登布鲁克》，包括对艺术和音乐的转向）

Moreover, with the detailed description of life on all social levels in early Qing Dynasty, the Dream appears as a documentary historical novel very much like Günter Grass’ The Tin Drum 1959.

此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的《铁皮鼓1959》非常相似，《铁皮鼓1959》是一部纪实历史小说。

=13 中德文化交流=
我们非常感佩您对中华文化的热爱、对推动中德文化交流做出的突出贡献！再次感谢您接受我的访问！祝您多结学术硕果！

Wir bewundern Ihre Liebe zur chinesischen Kultur und Ihren herausragenden Beitrag zur Förderung des kulturellen Austauschs zwischen Deutschland und China! Nochmals vielen Dank für dieses Interview! Ich wünsche Ihnen viele akademische Erfolge!

Woesler: Vielen Dank! Tatsächlich sehe ich es als eine der wichtigsten Aufgaben unserer Zeit, Menschen zusammenzubringen. Viele Nationen sind stolz auf ihre Kultur. Inzwischen wissen wir, dass keine Kultur besser oder schlechter ist als eine andere. Aber es ist faszinierend, und es fördert unsere Entwicklung als Individuen und als Menschheit insgesamt, von den verschiedenen Kulturen zu wissen. Wenn sich wie ich als Deutscher in die chinesische Kultur, auf der ganzen Welt Chinesen in andere Kulturen und Angehörige anderer Kulturen in die chinesische verlieben, so führt dies zu einer Bereicherung und einem Erblühen menschlicher Kultur insgesamt. So können die Menschen das Beste, das in ihnen steckt verwirklichen: Respekt und Toleranz.

Woesler: Thank you very much! Indeed, I see it as one of the most important tasks of our time to bring people together. Many nations are proud of their culture. By now we know that no culture is better or worse than another. But it is fascinating, and it promotes our development as individuals and as humanity as a whole, to know about the different cultures. If, like me as a German, Chinese people fall in love with Chinese culture, and all over the world Chinese people fall in love with other cultures, and members of other cultures fall in love with Chinese culture, this leads to an enrichment and blossoming of human culture as a whole. In this way, people can realize the best that is within them: Respect and tolerance.

吴漠汀：非常感谢你! 的确，我认为这是我们这个时代最重要的任务之一，就是把人们团结起来。许多国家都以自己的文化为荣。现在我们知道，没有任何一种文化比另一种文化更好或更差。但它是迷人的，它能促进我们作为个人和整个人类的发展，了解不同的文化。当像我这个德国人一样，中国人爱上了中国文化，全世界的中国人爱上了其他文化，其他文化的成员爱上了中国文化，这就导致了整个人类文化的丰富和绽放。这样，人们才能实现自己内心的最佳状态。尊重和宽容。

=Notes about the intercultural approach=
==《红楼梦》与其他世界文学作品的相似性——推荐《红楼梦》列入世界记忆遗产名录 Commonness between the Red Chamber Dreams and other World Literature Novels – Proposing the Red Chamber Dreams to the World Documentary Heritage List==

吴漠汀，湖南师范大学 Martin Woesler, Hunan Normal University

==Abstract==
In every culture, readers associate the literature they know with new literature they read. So literature is always cumulative, it grows out of existing literature and can refer back to it. When Western readers read the Red Chamber Dreams, they foremost associate novels and other pieces of literature of their own cultural tradition with the Dreams. This has also influenced the first full translation into German.
Cao Xueqin and even more his protagonist Jia Baoyu both are early humanists, universalists and world citizens. The Red Chamber Dreams function worldwide. The Dream is a complex showroom of diverse aspects of Chinese cultures and is the embodiment and essence of Chinese cultures, but it has also a global impact, therefore it should be honoured as “World Documentary Heritage”.

==Key words==
Western culture, reception tradition, German translation, Embodiment of Chinese cultures, global compatibility, World Documentary Heritage

==摘要==
在每一种文化中，读者都会把他们读到的新文学与已知文学联系起来，所以文学总是积累的，它从现有的文学中生长出来，并以已有文学为参考。西方读者在阅读《红楼梦》时，首先会把《红楼梦》与自身文化传统中的小说和其他文学作品联系起来，这也影响了首次德语全译本。
曹雪芹，尤其是他的主人公贾宝玉，都是早期的人文主义者，普世主义者和世界公民。《红楼梦》具有普世价值。《红楼梦》综合展示了中国的多元文化，是中国文化的集中体现和精华，同时在全球范围内产生影响，理应列入世界记忆遗产名录。

==关键词==

西方文化，传统保护，德国翻译，中国文化具像化表现，全球兼容，世界遗产文献 --Weiyafei (talk) 07:10, 28 December 2020 (UTC)Wei yafei

==1. Chinese Ethics==

To help the poor and disadvantaged belongs to the traditional core values of Chinese culture.

When we sit in the Beijing Subway today, the loudspeaker announcement reminds us, that it is Chinese traditional ethics to give seats to the disadvantaged (老弱病残孕让座是中国传统道德). We know of Cao Xueqin, that he supported the poor and disadvantaged, and that he made kites for children.

However, when we look closer at these “Chinese Ethics”, we discover, that they are claimed also in Indian Buddhism “karuna” and in the Christian tradition of “caritas” and in almost every civilization. Therefore, we might call these values “human ethics”.

中国伦理“扶贫济困”是中国文化的传统核心价值观。当我们今天坐在北京地铁时，扬声器的公告提醒我们，让弱势群体有座位是中国传统道德。我们知道曹雪芹，他支持穷人和处境不利的人，他为孩子们制作风筝。但是，当我们仔细观察这些“中国伦理学”时，我们发现，印度佛教“ karuna”，基督教的“明爱”传统以及几乎所有文明中也都声称拥有它们。因此，我们可以将这些价值观称为“人类道德”。--Wen Xiaoyi (talk) 15:24, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

==2. Compatibility Why do the Red Chamber Dreams function worldwide and have achieved world literature status even in their translations?==

2. 兼容性为什么《红楼梦》在世界范围内广泛流传，甚至在翻译领域中也取得了世界文学的地位？

First of all, the Red Chamber Dreams are, like novels worldwide, a piece of entertainment literature. In comparison to the drama, in which every element is compulsory and plays its part in the overall structure, in the novel the line of action itself is simpler and not so important, most of the scenes or episodes are loosely put together and fit in the broader theme of the novel.

首先，《红楼梦》和世界小说一样，是一部娱乐文学。与戏剧中的每一个元素都是强制性的，在整体结构中起作用的戏剧相比，小说的行动路线本身更简单，也不那么重要，大部分场景或情节都松散地组合在一起，这和小说更广泛的主题相吻合。

However, the lose arrangement of episodes of the Dreams comes from the tradition of almost unconnected episodes like in the Shuihuzhuan and is a step towards the greater coherence of the episodes, the aligning into a story line and the greater concentration on fewer protagonists. Therefore, the Dreams show clearly a step towards the Western tradition of novels, maybe because of growing Western influence in Qing dynasty.

然而，《红楼梦》章回结构不连续来自于《水浒传》中几乎没有联系的章回的传统，这是朝着章回更连贯、与故事线一致以及更集中于较少主角的方向迈出的一步。因此，《红楼梦》明显向西方小说传统迈进了一步，可能是因为西方对清代的影响越来越大。

==3. Impact of translator’s native culture on the translation process==

3.译者的本土文化对翻译过程的影响

There are intercultural parallels between the Red Chamber Dreams and Western works of literature.

《红楼梦》和西方文学作品之间有跨国文化的相似之处。

These parallels are fundamental for the translation and were explicitly and implicitly fundamental for the German translator Martin Woesler during his translation and editorial work on the first full German translation. In the following, I will mention some of the Western novels and pieces of literature, which the Western reader of the Dreams will immediately think of.

这些相似之处是翻译的根本，也是德文译者马丁-沃斯勒在翻译和编辑第一部德文全译本时明确和隐含的根本。下面，我将提到一些西方的小说和文学作品，西方的读者读到梦会立即想到这些作品。

==4. The novel as embodiment of “Zeitgeist”==

4. 小说作为 "时代精神 "的体现。

According to Georg Lukács’ Theory of the Novel, while the Epos (like Homer’s Ilias, which like the Dream reasons the stories in the divine realm) displayed a holistic world experience, a complete, self-contained culture, the novel displays, that the modern world has become infinitely large and has lost its homely quality.

根据格奥尔格-卢卡奇的小说理论，虽然Epos（像荷马的伊利亚斯，它像梦理由神界的故事）展示了一个整体的世界经验，一个完整的，自足的文化，小说展示，现代世界已经变得无限大，已经失去了它的家的品质。

The novel as a genre is no longer documenting just one culture, but represents, with the words of Walter Benjamin, the Organon of History. So the understanding of the novel changed with Lukacs to historical-philosophically. A novel is understood as typical for its historical era, the novel embodies the spirit of the epoch (Zeitgeist).

小说作为一种文体，不再只是记录一种文化，而是用瓦尔特-本雅明的话说，代表了历史的有机体。所以，对小说的理解随着卢卡奇的改变，变成了历史哲学的理解。小说被理解为其历史时代的典型，小说体现了时代精神（Zeitgeist）。

The Red Chamber Dreams are written in front of the background of the Manchu minority having taken over the power in formerly Han-shaped Ming-China (which was a multi-ethnic and crosscultural society) and families suffering the changing favor of changing emperors, with the Cao family being fostered by Kangxi and being persecuted by Yongzheng.

《红楼梦》写的是满族少数民族在原汉字形的明中国（这是一个多民族、跨文化的社会）掌握了政权，家庭遭受换代皇帝的宠爱，曹家被康熙扶植，被雍正迫害的背景前。

While the author in his time could not criticize the system and power of emperors, in the novel he came to terms with this life by seeking the guilt for the persecution in the growing decadence of the family (engaging in Daoism, leisure, poetry-writing, arts and music instead of learning for being able to earn a living) and in himself not fulfilling the expectations as the family heir. This description of decadence of a declining family reminds us of the novels of Tschechov (and e.g. in the Buddenbrooks by Mann, including the turn to arts and music).

虽然作者在他的时代无法批判帝制和皇权，但在小说中，他为家族的日益衰败（参加道教、娱乐、诗歌、艺术和音乐活动，而不是为了谋生而学习）和自己作为家族继承人没有实现家族期望感到自责，通过这样做，他也对这种生活做妥协。这种对没落家族颓废状况的描写，让我们想起了契诃夫的小说（如曼恩的《布登布鲁克》，包括对艺术和音乐的转向）

Moreover, with the detailed description of life on all social levels in early Qing Dynasty, the Dream appears as a documentary historical novel very much like Günter Grass’ The Tin Drum 1959.

此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的《铁皮鼓1959》非常相似，《铁皮鼓1959》是一部纪实历史小说。

==5. Coming-of-age and Alienation==

5. 成熟和异化

Abandoning the paradise-like garden in the Red Chamber Dreams is a symbol for leaving the protected childhood and arriving in the complex world of adults. With George Lukács theory of the novel, the protagonist starts to problematize the sense of his life, in the novel, the protagonist’s self permanently struggles with his environment.

抛弃《红楼梦》中天堂般的花园，是离开受保护的童年，进入复杂的成人世界的象征。随着乔治·卢卡奇的小说理论，主人公开始对他的生活感觉产生疑问，在小说中，主人公的自我一直与他的环境作斗争。

However, Cao Xueqin’s message is not simply the one of “Paradise Lost”, instead he himself made the best out of his life. Although being less wealthy than when his family still enjoyed the favour of the emperor, there was a payroll system and a social net intact in Early Qing China, where he received enough income to be independent from his rich relatives, to be selective on accepting jobs, to live a relaxed life in a small house in the nature, spending time with his family and friends, follow his own interests, like reading, writing and drinking wine, making kites for the children and thinking of the disadvantaged.

然而，曹雪芹所传达的信息并不是简单的“失乐园”，相反，他把自己的生活过得很好。虽然比起他的家族享受皇帝的宠爱，他过得没有那么富裕，但清初中国有一套薪俸制度和一张完整的社会网，他获得了足够的收入，可以独立于富贵亲戚，可以有选择性地接受工作，可以在大自然的小房子里过着悠闲的生活，可以与家人和朋友共度时光，可以追随自己的兴趣，例如读书，写作和饮酒，可以为孩子们做风筝，可以为弱势群体着想。

Cao Xueqin was fully aware of his time and China’s cultural achievements, he was familiar with the different levels of society, he was a detailed observer and skilful narrator. He may have conceptualized the ending of the novel as a discussion about the different personalities of the characters in the novel and therefore displaying his reflection about life and his psychological understanding of the diversity of human nature. He was able to grasp the “spirit of time” (Zeitgeist) and with his autobiographical experience create an eternal coming-of-age novel not just for his family, for the Qing-Chinese, for Chinese people, but for mankind.

曹雪芹对自己所处的时代和中国的文化成就了如指掌，他熟悉社会的不同层面，他是一个细致的观察者和娴熟的叙述者。因此，他在小说中对人的不同个性的理解和对小说中人物性格的多样性进行了概念化的探讨。他能够把握“时代精神”，用他的自传体经历，不仅为他的家庭，为清朝的中国人，为中国人民，而且为人类，创作了一部永恒的成人小说。

This tradition of Coming-of-age novels is also a European one, like enlightenment philosopher Voltaire’s novel Candide or Optimism《老实人》shows at the very same time (1759) in Europe. Also Voltaire’s Candide has to leave the luxurious paradise of his childhood and strives for true love, but his main learning is more pessimistic, since Voltaire wrote the novel in opposition to Leibniz, who optimistically looked to China as “the best of all worlds”. Recent research findings show that China had a much larger influence on European enlightenment philosophers and we can be sure, that also Cao Xueqin was aware of some European literary traditions.

这种成熟的传统小说也是一个欧洲人,像启蒙运动哲学家伏尔泰在欧洲同时间出版的的小说《老实人》(1759年)。伏尔泰笔下的老实人不得不离开童年的奢华天堂，为追求真爱而奋斗，但他的主要学习内容却更为悲观，因为伏尔泰的小说与莱布尼茨截然相反，莱布尼茨乐观地认为中国是“所有世界中最好的”。最近的研究发现，中国对欧洲启蒙运动哲学家的影响要大得多，我们可以肯定，曹雪芹对欧洲的一些文学传统也有所了解。

Also the German readership is familiar with the chronological following of the life of the protagonist and his development, the fate of a family over generations, the German readership knows this type of novel as the “Education novel” or “Coming-of-age-novel”. In Germany, the genre of the coming-of-age novel has a long tradition and it is shaped more by single characters, who appear as teachers (Goethe: Wilhelm Meister’s Apprenticeship威廉·麦斯特的学徒岁月 1795-96, Novalis 诺瓦利斯: Heinrich von Ofterdingen 《海因利·封·歐福特丁根》1802).

德国读者对主人公的生平及其发展、家族世代的命运都很熟悉，德国读者把这种类型的小说称为“教育小说”或“成长小说”。在德国,关于成长小说的体裁有着悠久的传统,它的形状更由单个字符,它更多的是被塑造为教师的单个人物(歌德：'Wilhelm Meister’s Apprenticeship威廉·麦斯特的学徒岁月 1795-96, Novalis 诺瓦利斯: Heinrich von Ofterdingen《海因利·封·歐福特丁根》1802)。

Wilhelm Meister, parallely to Jia Baoyu, is struggling with the traditional education, in Wilhelm Meister this is represented with the classics revived in Shakespeare’s dramas. Tradition can give orientation, but the personality of the protagonist needs to develop through emancipation is a wisdom, we can learn from all mentioned novels including the Dreams.

==6. Pornography and True Love, female rivals==

Sexuality is a basic human need and has developed into different shapes in all cultures. The German audience is familiar with erotic topics from the Middle Ages, in which sexuality was stylized. In the “Schwänke” of the 15th century (Wittenwielers Ring), erotic scenes are described sexually explicit.

与贾宝玉一样，威廉·迈斯特也在与传统教育作斗争，在《威廉·迈斯特》中，莎士比亚戏剧中复兴的经典作品代表了这一点。传统可以给予导向，但主人公的个性需要通过解放来发展是一种智慧，我们可以从包括《梦》在内的所有小说中学习。 “6。色情与真爱，女性对手" 性是人类的一种基本需求，在各种文化中形成了不同的形态。德国观众熟悉中世纪的情色话题，在这些话题中，性是程式化的。在15世纪的“Schwanke”(Wittenwielers Ring)中，情色场景被描述为露骨的性。

In the barock literature of the 17th century even the physical act is described extensively.

在17世纪的Barock文学中，甚至对物理行为也进行了广泛的描述。

According to „cumulativity“, every human being is a product of history and literature is based on previous literature, therefore the author of this pager thinks that this background has to be taken into account while translating.

根据“累积性”，每个人都是历史的产物，而文学是基于先前的文献，因此，该传呼机的作者认为翻译时必须考虑这一背景。

The best study on qing passion in the Dreams is the one by Anthony Yu, who understood it as desire and as the central motif of the Dreams. „The centrality of qing in shaping virtually every aspect of The Story of the Stone’s structure and meaning cannot be denied [...].“ (Anthony Yu 2001, 54).

关于梦中关于“情”最好的研究是安东尼·于（Anthony Yu）的研究，他将其理解为欲望和梦的中心主题。 “清香在塑造《石头的故事》的结构和意义的几乎每个方面的中心作用都不能否认。”（Anthony Yu 2001，54）。

In the framework story of the Dreams, the narrator consciously takes a stand against low-action and stereotypical pornographic literature as well as against the widespread romance novels (with the classic roles of the beautiful, talented woman and the poor scholar who finally achieves a respected position and prosperity by passing a civil service exam).

在《梦》的框架故事中，叙述者有意识地反对低俗的动作和陈规定型的色情文学，反对流传甚广的浪漫小说（以美丽的才女和通过公务员制度最终获得受人尊敬的地位的穷困书生为经典角色）。

In chapter 1 he says: ”of the true feelings of young people [...] nobody has reported about so far.”

在第一章中，他说：“关于年轻人的真实感受，[……]到目前为止还没有人报道过。”

Erotic scenes are described in a decent and associative way (“Game of clouds and rain”), while displaying another quality in its openness e.g. towards bisexuality.

情色场景被描述成一个体面和联想的方式（“云和雨的游戏”），同时显示了另一个开放性的性质，例如对双性恋。

The 'Red Chamber Dream' narrates the story of unfortunate lovers. Unfortunate lovers also in the West have a literary tradition, they constitute an archetype, such as Hero and Leander, Pyramus and Thisbe, Tristan and Isolde, Flore and Blanscheflur as well as Troilus and Cressida, the latter being considered the model for Arthur Brookes, who wrote Romeo and Juliet in 1562 and thus directly influenced Shakespeare.

《红楼梦》讲述了一对不幸的恋人的故事。不幸的恋人也有西方文学的传统,他们构成一个原型,如英雄和利安得、皮拉摩斯和提斯柏,特里斯坦与伊索尔德,凝花和Blanscheflur特洛伊罗斯和克雷西达,后者被认为是阿瑟·布鲁克斯的模型,他在1562年写了《罗密欧与朱丽叶》,从而直接影响了莎士比亚。玛丽安·加利克认为《红楼梦》和《浮士德》都是吸引我们的永恒女性的中心主题，顾城则称其为“永恒的处女”。

While Marián Galik saw as the central topic of both, the Dream and Faust, the eternal feminine, which draws us on high, Gu Cheng called it the “eternal virgine”.

玛丽安·加利克（Mariann Galik）认为《梦》和《浮士德》都是吸引我们的永恒女性的中心主题，顾城则称其为“永恒的处女”。

In Goethe’s coming-of-age novel Wilhelm Meisters Wanderjahre, we find a similar motif of female rivals, in the Keller 凯勒 The Green Henry 《绿衣亨利》1855, the hero turns away from an emphatically sexually designed figure and turns to the 'real' woman. In Jane Austen’s Pride and Prejudice 1813 Elizabeth and Lin Daiyu are similar, e.g. they both strive for real love (Zhuang 2011).

在歌德的成长小说Wilhelm Meisters Wanderjahre中，我们发现了类似的女性竞争主题，在凯勒The Green Henry（《绿衣亨利》1855）中，男主人公父亲早亡，母亲养育其成人。在简-奥斯汀的Pride and Prejudice（《傲慢与偏见》1813）中，伊丽莎白和林黛玉是相似的，比如她们都追求真爱（庄2011）。

==7. Feudal society and slavery==

7. 封建社会和奴隶

A widespread interpretation is that Jia Baoyu’s equal treatment of family members and slaves would be a manifesto to free the slaves. I also do not share this interpretation, since Aristotle, when he demanded democracy, would exclude slaves from the right to vote. So we cannot use modern concepts to judge on the past. In my understanding, Jia Baoyu was not fighting inequality, but looked at the people as humans and individuals.

人们普遍认为贾宝玉对待家庭成员和奴隶的平等对待是解放奴隶的宣言。我不同意这种解释，因为亚里士多德吁民主时，会将奴隶从投票权中剔除。所以我们不能用现代观点评判古人。我认为，贾宝玉并不是在为不平等而做斗争，而是将人区分为人或是个体。

Also the understanding of the servants as slaves does not match the description in the Dream, since some servants had servants themselves, the family took care after they left the Jia family to find a match for them and Jia Zheng refers to his daughter Yingchun as „yatou 丫头“, so it is inappropriate to translate this expression with slave. Therefore, the translator preferred “servant” over “slave” in the translation.

而且把仆人理解为奴隶与《红楼梦》中的描写不符，因为有些仆人自己还有仆人，贾府会在她们离府的时候为她们寻一门亲事，作为贾府对她们的照料；贾政也把自己的女儿迎春喊作 “丫头”，所以把这些翻译成奴隶是不合适的。因此英文翻译中采用“servant”会比“slave”更为合适。

Mo Yan in his speech at the Frankfurt Bookfair in 2009, when China was the guest of honor, draws the (similarly) parallel between the Dream and Goethe’s Sorrows of the Young Werther, that both expressed the wish to abandon feudal society. My own impression is that both do not express this wish, but that this is a later concept and interpretation and we should not apply this to judge the past.

2009年，莫言代表中国作为主宾国参加法兰克福书展时，在演讲中把《红楼梦》和歌德的《少年维特之哀》画上了约等号，表达了抛弃封建社会的愿望。我自己的感觉是，两者都没有表达这个愿望，但这是后来的概念和解释，我们不应该以此来判断过去。

==8. Tragedy of all tragedies==

8.最悲剧的悲剧

Aristotle explained in On the Tragedy (Poetics VI), that tragedies move people more than comedies because they “imitate [mimēsis] an action that is serious, complete, and of a certain magnitude” (Aristotle 1971, 51), This high esteem of the tragedy in Europe is partly ascribed to the loss of Aristotle’s work On the Comedy.

亚里士多德在《悲剧论》（诗学VI）中解释道，悲剧之所以比戏剧更加动人，是因为它们“模仿（mimēsis）一种严肃、完整且具有一定规模的行动”（Aristotle 1971，51）。悲剧在欧洲拥有崇高地位部分归因于亚里士多德的作品《论喜剧》的失传。

While Europe has the Hamlet as its tragedy of all tragedies, the lack of tragic literature in Chinese literary tradition has long been lamented. Wang Guowei sees the Dream as "tragedy of all tragedies". To Wang Guowei the suffering of Faust and Jia Baoyu is central in the novels. However, many scholars contest that Faustianism is central for Chinese culture.

欧洲悲剧中以《哈姆雷特》为悲剧，而中国文学传统中悲剧文学的缺失，长期以来被人们所惋惜。王国维认为《梦》是“所有悲剧中的悲剧”。对王国维来说，浮士德和贾宝玉的苦难是小说的中心。然而，许多学者认为浮士德主义是中国文化的核心。

In 18th century Europe, we saw a new development in the genre of the drama, to establish a “bourgeois tragedy”.

在18世纪的欧洲，我们看到了戏剧体裁的新发展，确立了“资产阶级悲剧”。

It developed as an emancipatory movement in the 18th century in London, Paris and Germany, and demonstrated that tragedy was not reserved to rulers, but was also imagineable for lower noblemen and ordinary citizens. The Dream at the same time as the bourgeois tragedy in Europe shows a tragic story of a mid-level noble family which loses its titles and privileges.

它作为一场解放运动在18世纪的伦敦、巴黎和德国发展起来，并证明了悲剧并非只发生在统治者身上，也可能发生在下层贵族和普通公民身上。《梦》与欧洲资产阶级悲剧同时上演，讲述的是一个中层贵族家庭失去头衔和特权的悲剧故事。

==9. “Non-Binary” Novels==

9. “非二元”小说

One of the things attracting Western readers is the adorable but mysterious protagonist Jia Baoyu. With his open bisexual orientation and his interest in his mates regardless of their social status, he appears “modern” or at least displaced in time. His struggle with traditional learning makes him appear sympathetic, his long states of rapture out of the world give him both the aura of a timeless character and of mystery.

一个吸引西方读者的东西是可爱而神秘的主人公贾宝玉。由于他开放的双性恋倾向和他对伴侣的兴趣，不管他们的社会地位如何，他显得“现代”或至少在时间上流离失所。他与传统学习的斗争使他显得富有同情心，他从世界上长期的狂喜给了他永恒的性格和神秘的气息。

With the bisexual orientation of the Dreams’ protagonist, the novel appears non-binary. According to German sinologist Karl-Heinz Pohl (2018), binaries are just superficial, ultimately decisive is the Heart Sutra. Today, the novel is listed among the genre of non-binary literature (see e.g. the bibliographical list on https://www.goodreads.com/list/tag/non-binary), in which contrasts are dissolved deconstructivistically.

随着梦中主人公的双性取向，小说呈现出非二元性。德国汉学家卜松山(2018)认为，二进制只是表面现象，最终起决定性作用的是“心经”。今天，这部小说被列为非二元文学的一个流派（参见https://www.goodreads.com/list/tag/non-binary)，其中的反差被解构主义地化解了。

==10. Foreign Cultures in the Red Chamber Dreams==

10.红楼梦中的异邦文化

Foreign Cultures frequently appear in the Dreams in all kinds of varieties, like exoticism with the many objects in the household and presented to the household as novelties, especially the blond girl of the same age as Baoyu referred to in person (combining different origins and cultures, including European, Japanese, Chinese) or several times on paintings, one time shown with wings as an angel.

红楼梦中经常出现各种各样的异邦文化元素，例如许多贾府物品带有异国情调，并是以新奇的形式呈现给贾府的，尤其是其中提到的与宝玉同龄的金发女孩（结合了不同的来历和文化，包括欧洲，日本，中国），金发女孩也多次在绘画中出现，有一次是以带翅膀的天使的形象出现。

The playful combination of different traditions we can see also when a religious dress is described, which carries characteristics of different religions. Similarly, the Daoist monk and the Confucian priest appear together. Cao Xueqin wanted to show the richness and diversity, also with the many topics and societal levels of the novel. Even a variety of Christian motifs can be found, like when Jia Baoyu is not recognized by his father in chapter 120 and when he disappears, all parallel to Jesus Christ.

宗教服饰带有不同宗教的特点，在描述一种宗教服饰时，我们也能体味不同宗教传统的玩味结合。同样，道士和儒士也可一起出现。曹雪芹想表现出小说的丰富性和多样性，同时也要展现出小说的众多主题和社会层次。在书中甚至可以找到各种基督教的主题，比如第120章贾宝玉不被父亲认可，以及贾宝玉消失的时候，这些都与耶稣基督平行。

The variety of cultures is paralleled with the variety of elements of different dynasties, which makes it timeless and therefore even more a masterpiece of Chinese art and a masterpiece of human art. Therefore I would like to nominate the Red Chamber Dreams as “World Documentary Heritage”.

文化的多样性与不同朝代的元素多样性相辅相成，这种多样性便其变得永恒，甚至因此而成为中国艺术杰作和人类艺术杰作。因此，我想提名《红楼梦》为“世界纪录片遗产”。

==References 参考文献==

*Anthony, C. Yu. (2001). Rereading the Stone: Desire and the Making of Fiction in Dream of the Red Chamber. Princeton University Press.
*Aristotle. (1971). Poetics. Trans. S. H. Butcher. Ed. Hazard Adams. Critical Theory since Plato. ew York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 48-66.
*Woesler, Martin, ed., Cao Xueqin, Gao E et al. (2016). Der Traum der Roten Kammer oder Die Geschichte vom Stein [Red Chamber Dreams or The Story of the Stone], Peking: Foreign Languages Press, ISBN 9787119094120, 4813 pages, 6 vols., hardcover, transl. by Rainer Schwarz and Martin Woesler; Chinese-German bilingual edition
*Woesler, Martin. (2011). “Being Explicit About the Implicit – John Minford’s Translation of the last Forty Chapters of The Story of the Stone with a Field Study on two Sexually Arousing Scenes”. Hong lou meng xue kan 6: 274-289
*Woesler, Martin. (2010). “ ’To Amuse the Beaux and Belles’ The Early Western Reception of the Hongloumeng”. Journal of Sino-Western Communications 2 (2010.12) 2:81-107
*Zhuang, Xiuhua. (2011). Self, Ideal and Salvation: A Comparative Study of Jane Austen’s Elizabeth and Cao Xueqin’s Lin Daiyu. Journal of Language Teaching and Research, Vol. 2, No. 2, pp. 420-423, March 2011. Fulltext: http://www.academypublication.com/issues/past/jltr/vol02/02/19.pdf.

2021 Interview with Duan Yuanyuan

2021-03-04T13:43:14Z

Bebery: /* 10 国际汉学中心 */

'''访谈提纲 Interview with Martin Woesler by Duan Yuanyuan'''

=1 让·莫内讲席教授=
吴教授您好，非常感谢您拨冗接受我的访谈！首先恭喜您获得“让·莫内讲席教授”荣誉称号，此地位是欧盟对从事欧洲一体化教学与研究学者的最高学术承认！您真可谓是一位欧盟的学术大使！据悉，该项目申请难度颇大，中国今年只有湖南师范大学、四川大学和中国政法大学三所大学获得资助。您可否借此次获奖的机缘，说明你眼中中欧的学术交流呢？
不客气！的确，我把自己看作是中欧之间的“文化大使”，把这次获得“让·莫内讲席教授”称号看作是在华工作、学习、生活近三十年的一个阶段性总结。许多西方人认为在华生活是一个极大的挑战，对此我并不否认，但是挑战之余，我还从中看到了变革[What kind of transformation are we talking about here? ]的必要性，而且变革只有通过接触和交流才能实现。中国应该有更多的欧洲学者，中国也应该成为德国每一所大学亟需讨论的议题。
You're welcome! Indeed, I regard myself as a "cultural ambassador" between China and Europe, and I regard winning the title of "Professor Jean Monnet Lecture" as a phased summary of nearly 30 years of work, study and life in China. Many Westerners think that living in China is a great challenge, which I don't deny, but besides the challenge, I also see the necessity of change, and change can only be realized through contact and communication. There should be more European scholars in China, and China should also become an urgent topic for every German university to discuss.
欧盟委员会2020年在全球范围内授予了70个让·莫内教席，且每所大学最多可获一个名额。中国境内大学上次获得还是在2016年。“让·莫内讲席教授”传统上主要关注欧盟相关研究。现在欧盟委员会把这个奖项授予在中国任教的德国汉学家，这说明欧盟委员会已经认识到批判性地对比其它国家和欧盟发展模式的重要性。
In 2020, the European Commission awarded 70 Jean Monnet chairs worldwide, and each university can get up to one place. The last time universities in China won it was in 2016. Traditionally, "Professor Jean Monnet" mainly focuses on EU-related research. Now the European Commission has awarded this award to German sinologists who teach in China, which shows that the European Commission has realized the importance of critically comparing the development models of other countries with those of the European Union.
我不想把欧盟在中国的表现作为中国的反面典型，而是用批判性的眼光看待。中国学生正是通过批判性思维树立价值观。我曾做过调查，结果显示，很多中国学生认为欧盟的政治一体化还没有成功，英国脱欧反映了欧盟的软弱，但我想传达的知识是，欧盟已经在运作了，只是方式不同而已：即追求的不是快速而精干的决策过程，而是等待、讨论、参与和妥协。
I don't want to take the EU's performance in China as a negative example of China, but look at it critically. It is through critical thinking that Chinese students establish values. I have done a survey, and the results show that many Chinese students think that the political integration of the EU has not been successful, and Brexit reflects the weakness of the EU, but the knowledge I want to convey is that the EU is already in operation, only in different ways: it is not a fast and lean decision-making process, but waiting, discussing, participating and compromising.
同时，英国脱欧正表明欧盟每个成员都有随时离开的自由，这被视为一种成就。所以欧洲未必比中国差，只是不同而已。而当中国学生乐于接受不同的时候，他们的个性就会得到发展，成熟起来，适合国际就业市场。因此，我很鼓励学生去欧洲交换学习一两个学期。
At the same time, Brexit shows that every EU member has the freedom to leave at any time, which is regarded as an achievement. Therefore, Europe is not necessarily worse than China, it is just different. When Chinese students are willing to accept differences, their personalities will develop and mature, which is suitable for the international job market. Therefore, I encourage students to go to Europe for exchange study for one or two semesters.
申请“让·莫内讲席”项目时，我就在材料中表明该项目的落脚点在于中国和欧洲的比较，课题还囊括不同的教育体系、社会各领域的数字化以及对数据隐私的保护。通过该项目，我会推荐几名德国同事来中国短期或者长期工作，也会推荐中国同事去欧洲短期访学。并针对该项目，设置课程专题对比中欧近来的对外政策，以期激励中国塑造更加完整的海外形象。
When applying for the "Jean Monnet Lecture" project, I indicated in the materials that the foothold of the project lies in the comparison between China and Europe, and the topic also includes different education systems, digitalization in various fields of society and protection of data privacy. Through this project, I will recommend several German colleagues to work in China for a short or long time, and I will also recommend Chinese colleagues to visit Europe for a short time. In view of this project, a course topic is set up to compare the recent foreign policies of China and Europe, in order to encourage China to shape a more complete overseas image.

=2 《红楼梦》首次全译本=
2.您的代表作是《红楼梦》德语全译本，您是如何走上汉学之路的呢？可否谈谈与史华慈合译《红楼梦》的初衷？How did you begin to learn Chinese and how to stick to the path of sinology for so many years? Why did you choose to translate 红楼梦？
《红楼梦》的意义大于个人，是一件永恒的艺术品，应该提升到“世界遗产”的地位。目前，欧洲只有半数国家出版《红楼梦》译本。1989年我刚上大学的时候，德文版《红楼梦》也只有弗兰茨-库恩的节译本，共40章，只有原文体量的三分之一。与库恩的其他中国优秀小说译本在语言上几乎没有差别，带有浓厚的德国地方色彩。我也注意到了译文的不足之处。他把《红楼梦》书名中的“楼”翻译成“城堡”。这种译法也许比较适合欧洲读者的阅读口味，但就中国文化、中国历史、中国环境而言，我认为不太准确。这些不足之处也可解释为什么大卫-霍克斯和约翰-闵福德的译本在德国广受欢迎。
A Dream of Red Mansions is more meaningful than an individual. It is an eternal work of art and should be promoted to the status of "World Heritage". At present, only half of European countries have translated a Dream of Red Mansions. When I first went to college in 1989, the German version of a Dream of Red Mansions was only a flantz-Kuhn excerpt, with a total of 40 chapters, only one third of the original volume. There is almost no difference in language with Kuhn's other excellent Chinese novel translations, with strong German local color. I also noticed the shortcomings of the translation. He translated "Lou" in the title of A Dream of Red Mansions into "Castle". This translation may be more suitable for European readers, but I don't think it is accurate in terms of Chinese culture, Chinese history and Chinese environment. These shortcomings can also explain why the translations of David Hawkes and John Minford are so popular in Germany.
XX年/契机我开始重新翻译《红楼梦》。也是通过这个项目，我申请到了北京大学德意志学术交流中心（Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst，简称DAAD）奖学金。因此我也得以在北京大学学习X个月。[When did you study in Peking University? And for how long?]当时的选拔委员会主席是沃尔夫冈·顾彬（Wolfgang Kubin，中文名顾彬），他后来成为我的博士生导师之一。随后在北京，我多次参观了红楼梦研究所。参观之时张#送给我一本《红楼梦》辞典。后来回到德国，我与马汉茂（Helmut Martin）合作。从他那里我了解到，史华慈（Rainer Schwarz）已经将小说前80章翻译出来，并将自己的译文交给他出版，马汉茂让我审阅了史华兹的译本。不过译文暂未达到出版质量，[Can you give more details of why it can not be published yet? ]还需修订。
XX Year/Opportunity I began to retranslate A Dream of Red Mansions. It was also through this project that I applied for a scholarship from Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst (DAAD) of Peking University. So I was able to study at Peking University for X months. At that time, the chairman of the selection committee was Wolfgang Kubin (Chinese name Gu Bin), who later became one of my doctoral supervisors. Later in Beijing, I visited the Dream of Red Mansions Research Institute many times. During the visit, Zhang # gave me a dictionary of a Dream of Red Mansions. Later, when I returned to Germany, I cooperated with Helmut Martin. I learned from him that Rainer Schwarz had translated the first 80 chapters of the novel and gave him his own translation for publication. Ma Hanmao asked me to review Schwartz's translation. However, the translation has not yet reached the publishing quality and needs to be revised.
这次翻译尝试于我而言具有重大意义，我认为修改史华兹的译本使其达到出版水平比自己独立完成120章的翻译更重要。我花了几年时间修订史华兹的译文，随后自己翻译了后40回。然后按照前80回的风格重新修改我翻译的后40回，其中人名的翻译统一采用正式的拼音系统及其拼写方法，且并非采用标准的汉语拼音，而是按照德语书写方式，这样做的目的是尽可能地吸引更多读者的关注，且避免读者出现行文风格“跳脱”感受。
This translation attempt is of great significance to me. I think it is more important to revise Schwartz's translation to the publishing level than to complete the translation of 120 chapters independently. It took me several years to revise Schwartz's translation, and then I translated the last 40 times myself. Then I revised the last 40 times of my translation according to the style of the first 80 times, Among them, the translation of names adopts the formal Pinyin system and its spelling method, and does not adopt the standard Chinese Pinyin, but according to the German writing method. The purpose of this is to attract more readers' attention as much as possible, and to avoid readers' feeling of "jumping" in writing style.
现在，读者可获得完整、精细的译本，译本必要处附有注释。之后在XX年X月[When will the fifth edition be published? ]会出版第五版，该版本会根据读者意见和自己对原文的重新理解再进行改进。比如在我未出版的120章全译本中，很多人名的翻译也考虑到了名字的中文含义。[What amendments will you make in the fifth edition of the Chamber? Could you please list some? ]
Now, readers can get a complete and detailed translation, with notes where necessary. Then [when will the fifth edition be published? ] will publish the fifth edition, which will be improved according to readers' opinions and their own re-understanding of the original text. For example, in my unpublished full translation of 120 chapters, the translation of many names also takes into account the Chinese meaning of names. [What amendments will you make in the fifth edition of the Chamber? Could you please list some? ]

=3 欧洲红学=
3.您曾在国内红学权威刊物《红楼梦学刊》上发表过两篇文章，以德国人的视角叙述西方对《红楼梦》的了解，并介绍德译本情况以及西方学者的理解及评价。从这两篇文章可以看出，《红楼梦》在西方的传播已变换形式，由文本本身的传播向舞台剧等多模态形态发展。请问现今欧洲的红学研究、传播现状如何？您认为《红楼梦》对国内外读者有何影响？
小说是“时代精神”的体现。《红楼梦》于1791年首次出版，其创作背景是中国少数民族之一的满族统治下的清朝，曹家或受康熙宠信或备受雍正冷落以致抄家没落。囿于时代背景，作者在当时无法公开批判帝制皇权，但在小说中，他在家庭日益衰败（从事道教、闲暇、诗歌创作、艺术和音乐，而不是为了能够谋生而学习）和自己没有实现作为家族继承人的期望中，寻求被迫害的根源。这种对名家望族没落之路的描写使我们想起了契诃夫的小说。此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的纪实性历史小说《铁皮鼓》(1959年)非常相似。最值得一提的是《红楼梦》和托马斯·曼的《布登勃洛克一家》（1901年）。两部小说都描写了出生富贵的年轻一代人的颓废、没落、溃散，以及一个家族的社会地位和经济状况的逐渐没落与覆灭。托马斯·曼的小说是以资产阶级社会的巨大变革为背景，而曹雪芹的作品则选取了某个朝代的更迭时期作为时代背景，在其中帝王利益与家族利益发生了冲突! 有趣的是，两部作品中的主要角色都挑选了英年早逝的类似人物。《红楼梦》里林黛玉为情而亡，秦可卿因乱伦自尽，贾元春和妙玉也是突然死亡。在《布登勃洛克一家》里克拉拉在婚后不久即死于脑结核，托马斯在牙科手术后去世，汉诺死于伤寒。两部作品都在结构和主题上运用了影射等大量的艺术手法，以丰富的故事进展描绘出一幅衰败的景象。因此，这种并行发展令人惊讶，很难说《布登勃洛克一家》的创作没受到《红楼梦》的影响。
The novel is the embodiment of "the spirit of the times". A Dream of Red Mansions was first published in 1791. Its creation background was the Qing Dynasty under the rule of Manchu, one of China's ethnic minorities. The Cao family was either favored by Kangxi or neglected by Yongzheng, resulting in the decline of property ownership. Constrained by the background of the times, the author could not publicly criticize the imperial power at that time, but in the novel, he sought the root of persecution in the declining family (engaged in Taoism, leisure, poetry creation, art and music, instead of studying in order to make a living) and his failure to realize his expectation of being the heir of the family. This decadent description of declining families reminds us of Chekhov's novels. In addition, the detailed description of the life of all social strata in the early Qing Dynasty in A Dream of Red Mansions is very similar to Gunter Grass's documentary historical novel Tin Drum (1959). The most noteworthy ones are A Dream of Red Mansions and Thomas Mann's Budenbrock Family (1901). Both novels describe the decadence, decline and collapse of the wealthy young generation, as well as the gradual decline and collapse of a family's social status and economic situation. Thomas Mann's novels are set against the background of great changes in bourgeois society, while Cao Xueqin's works choose the change period of a certain dynasty as the background of the times, in which the interests of emperors and families conflict! Interestingly, the main characters in the two works have chosen similar characters who died young. In a Dream of Red Mansions, Lin Daiyu died of love, Qin Keqing committed suicide due to incest, and Jia Yuanchun and Miaoyu also died suddenly. In the Budenbrock Family, Clara died of brain tuberculosis shortly after marriage, Thomas died after dental surgery, and Hanno died of typhoid fever. Both works use a lot of artistic techniques such as innuendo in structure and theme, and depict a declining scene with rich story progress. Therefore, this parallel development is surprising. It is hard to say that the creation of the Budenbroc Family was not influenced by a Dream of Red Mansions.

4.您曾在欧洲多所学校任教，请问现今欧洲汉学的研究状况如何？
You have taught in many European schools. What is the current research status of Sinology in Europe?

=5 为何从古典文学的翻译转向中国现当代文学的翻译？=
除了《红楼梦》这一代表译作之外，您还翻译了包括鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱锺书、韩少功、贾平凹等在内的一批著名作家的优秀作品。可否谈谈为什么选择不同时代作家的作品？您又是如何再现他们不同的写作风格？[This question intends to know about why you choose to translate works of those writers. Is it because of personal interests or the publisher asking you to do so?
I think the section of Xu Zechen serves as good interview answers. As Chinese readers, we are desperate to know what things are like from Westerners’ perspective. ]
为何从古典文学的翻译转向中国现当代文学的翻译？
Why did you shift from the translation of classical literature to the translation of modern and contemporary Chinese literature?
不同时代的作品反映出不同的时代背景，这些作品对我个人而言是很好的窗口，可以窥探不同时期中国的社会面貌，还可与同期的欧洲文学进行比较。贾平凹作为20世纪80年代以来中国最伟大的作家之一，英译本很少。究其原因，首先在于他的作品植根于山西农村，带有浓重的地域风俗习惯。首先读懂原文对译者来说就是一项挑战，更不用提在译入语中找到对应的表达。我在翻译贾平凹的XX中就遇到了这个问题。。。。。。。。[Can you list some difficulties when translating Jia Pingwa’s or any other author’s works? We like the details.]
The works of different times reflect different backgrounds of the times. These works are a good window for me personally. I can spy on the social outlook of China in different periods and compare them with European literature in the same period. Jia Pingwa, as one of the greatest writers in China since 1980s, has few English versions. The reason lies in the fact that his works are rooted in Shanxi rural areas and have strong regional customs. It is a challenge for translators to understand the original text first, not to mention finding the corresponding expression in the target language. I encountered this problem in translating Jia Pingwa's XX. . . . . . . .
对于译者来说，翻译不同作者的作品时面对的翻译难点不同。而不同的译者有着不同的处理方式，这也能解释为何同一部作品有几个翻译版本，且翻译策略各有不同。我深知译者的文化背景对译本翻译策略的选择有很大影响，所以有些作品即便存在译本，我还是选择重新翻译。从鲁迅的短篇小说中，我们可以读出作者内心的矛盾：文学能改变世界吗？难道一定要身体力行才能改变世界吗？难道连唤醒那些像阿Q一样任由自己被牵着走，任人宰割的昏昏欲睡的同胞们也能做到吗？当无法改变自己和社会的命运时，唤醒他们还有什么用呢？作为译者，我们如何再现这种矛盾心理，如何处理鲁迅在翻译中有些古板的早期白话，如何与他对日常政治事件的论述。这些都是翻译中必不可免的问题。目前已有的鲁迅作品德译本在这些方面的处理方式多样。巴金在受到批评后修改了三部曲之一的《家》，删除了缠足现象。在翻译这部作品的过程中，译者必须决定是翻译原版还是删减后的版本。
For translators, translation difficulties are different when translating works of different authors. Different translators have different ways of dealing with it, which can explain why there are several translated versions of the same work and the translation strategies are different. I know that the translator's cultural background has a great influence on the choice of translation strategies, so I choose to retranslate some works even if there are translations. From Lu Xun's short stories, we can read the author's inner contradiction: Can literature change the world? Do you have to practice to change the world? Can we even wake up those sleepy compatriots who let themselves be led and slaughtered like Ah Q? What's the use of awakening them when they can't change their own destiny and that of society? As translators, how do we reproduce this ambivalence, how do we deal with Lu Xun's rigid early vernacular in translation, and how do we communicate with his exposition of daily political events? These are all inevitable problems in translation. At present, the existing German versions of Lu Xun's works deal with these aspects in various ways. After being criticized, Ba Jin revised Home, one of the trilogy, and deleted foot binding. In the process of translating this work, the translator must decide whether to translate the original version or the abridged version.
我个人很喜欢徐则臣的作品。在2009年（北上2015年才出版）[Is this book called <北上>？]的法兰克福书展上，他的故事《北上》受到广泛好评。事实上，他的生活经历与我有些重叠部分。我们都在北京大学学习过，只不过他比我早入学一点（多久）。当时校园里有一种亚文化，博士生们住在餐厅旁边的闲置房间里，因为他们对大学里的人、办事流程了如指掌，而且在独立的诗歌和艺术界也有联系，所以每逢有聚会，他们都很抢手，大家竞相邀请他们参加聚会。那时的大学涌现着一股乐观主义的精神，起初门外涌现出私营商业市场，后来校园里传出“开公司”的口号。那时，毕业生不愿毕业就被分入特定的工作岗位，身上的自由和责任感促使他们闯一闯这个世界。故事里拿着盗版产品的街边小贩和软件开发产品的学生先锋也是这幅画的一部分。徐则臣将这种气氛真实地捕捉到，令人信服。他笔下的人物在我们心上扎根，爱上他们，学会在生活中打拼。也是这种情感体验上的共鸣促使我翻译《北上》这部作品。
Personally, I like Xu Zechen's works very much. At the Frankfurt Book Fair in 2009 (published in 2015), his story "Going North" was widely praised. In fact, his life experience overlaps with mine. We all studied at Peking University, but he entered school a little earlier than me. At that time, there was a subculture on campus. Doctoral students lived in idle rooms next to restaurants. Because they knew the people and procedures in the university like the back of their hand, and they also had contacts in independent poetry and art circles, they were very popular whenever there was a party, and everyone invited them to attend the party. At that time, there was a spirit of optimism in universities. At first, private commercial markets emerged outside the doors. Later, the slogan of "starting a company" came out on campus. At that time, graduates were assigned to specific jobs without graduating, and their freedom and sense of responsibility prompted them to enter the world. Street vendors with pirated products and student pioneers with software development products in the story are also part of this painting. Xu Zechen captured this atmosphere truly and convincingly. His characters take root in our hearts, fall in love with them and learn to work hard in life. It is also this resonance in emotional experience that prompted me to translate the work "North".

=6 跨文化身份=
6. 作为汉学家和翻译家，您的跨文化身份让你置身于东西方文明之间。当您从欧洲文化和文学背景来到中国的文化和文学背景中，在两种迥异的语言之间进行转换，是否感到自己的思维方式和行文风格发生了些许改变？[This question asks you whether living in China for almost eight years affects your translating ideologies? Is there any difference if you only learned Chinese but never lived in China for such a long time? ]

=7 中西合璧=
有人认为中华文化走出去最好的译介模式是“中西合璧”，如葛浩文和林丽君的译作在国内外产生了较大影响。您对此有何看法？[I think this answer is rather insufficient. ]
什么是理想的译者？韦努蒂认为译者应该是隐身的，看不见的。如果读者没有注意到所读文本是一个译本，那么译者就达到了完美的境界。我认为，原语文化的译者在理解原文上的确更占优势，但是在传达上就不如来自目标语文化的译者，只有这样的译者才能向目标读者传达想要传达的形象。已经掌握了两种文化和语言的人来做译者是最合适不过的。当然，如果译者本身就是作家就更好了，这样翻译出来的译文想必更贴近原作。
What is an ideal translator? Venuti believes that translators should be invisible and invisible. If the reader doesn't notice that the text he reads is a translation, then the translator has reached a perfect state. In my opinion, the translator of the source language culture does have an advantage in understanding the original text, but he is not as good as the translator from the target language culture in conveying it. Only in this way can the translator convey the image he wants to convey to the target readers. People who have mastered both cultures and languages are the most suitable translators. Of course, it would be better if the translator himself was a writer, so the translated version must be closer to the original.
译文总是一种新的创造，它在文字上不能再模仿原文，而在功能、效果等方面却可以再现原文的特点，所以葛浩文和林丽君这样的“中西合璧”的组合在翻译极具中国特色的作品时应该会比较合适。
Translation is always a new creation. It can no longer imitate the original text in words, but can reproduce the characteristics of the original text in terms of function and effect. Therefore, the combination of "Chinese and Western combination" such as Ge Haowen and Lin Lijun should be more appropriate when translating works with Chinese characteristics.

=8 中华文化外译传播=
8. 根据您的实践经验和理性思考，中华文化外译传播有哪些成功因素?
首先，对于普通读者而言，接受《红楼梦》第一步就必须有可读的译本，因此《红楼梦》在其它没有译本的国家的传播有赖于译者的工作。我认为等待引进不如主动输出。这样成功的例子不是没有。20世纪80年代，杨宪益倡议出版熊猫丛书，意在向国外译介中国当代、现代和古代的优秀作品，所出版的杂志和从书在国外有相当大的影响，几乎成为很长时期内国外研究中国汉学、对中国文学有兴趣的人了解中国文学的唯一的窗口。因此，中国相关机构可借鉴当时的经验，在还没有译本的欧洲国家作出尝试。
First of all, for ordinary readers, the first step to accept a Dream of Red Mansions is to have a readable translation, so the dissemination of a Dream of Red Mansions in other countries without a translation depends on the translator's work. I think it is better to take the initiative to export than to wait for import. There are not no such successful examples. In 1980s, Yang Xianyi initiated the publication of Panda Series, aiming at translating and introducing excellent works of contemporary, modern and ancient China to foreign countries. The published magazines and books have a considerable influence abroad, and have almost become the only window for people who study Chinese Sinology abroad and are interested in Chinese literature to understand Chinese literature for a long time. Therefore, relevant Chinese institutions can learn from the experience at that time and try in European countries that have not yet translated them.
其次，西方尤其是美国的《红楼梦》研究开始用现代理论解读《红楼梦》，如 “感觉”、“同性恋”等。因此在每隔几年举办一次的红学会议上，整理以前的研究，撰写一部西方学术界与小说接触史就显得十分重要。
Secondly, the study of "A Dream of Red Mansions" in the West, especially in the United States, began to interpret "A Dream of Red Mansions" with modern theories, such as "feeling" and "homosexuality". Therefore, it is very important to sort out the previous research and write a history of contact between western academic circles and novels at the Redology Conference held every few years.
我很早就开始关注《红楼梦》在西方的接受情况。其刚进入西方世界之时并不是一片叫好，直至被列为世界文学的一部分，这一过程持续了很多年。一方面是因为完整的译本直至XX年才出现，另一方面是因为许多西方汉学家和译者的民族中心主义世界观，他们认为只有本土的文学才称得上世界文学，而对别国文学视若无睹。在我看来，跨越时间空间，对优秀作品的认同还是同样的，因此《红楼梦》应该成为世界文化遗产。
I began to pay attention to the acceptance of A Dream of Red Mansions in the West very early. When it first entered the western world, it was not applauded until it was listed as a part of world literature, which lasted for many years. On the one hand, the complete translation did not appear until XX years; On the other hand, it is because many western sinologists and translators have an ethnocentric world outlook. They think that only local literature can be called world literature and turn a blind eye to other countries' literature. In my opinion, across time and space, the recognition of excellent works is the same, so A Dream of Red Mansions should become a world cultural heritage.
最后，中国文化作品的译介研究不能仅仅依靠本土研究者、译者，还需要目标语国家的同人鼎力相助。就《红楼梦》而言，对其翻译的研究不在少数，但遗憾的是，其中研究者多为中国学者，他们研究时没有与本土学者交流。但我认为，为了提升学术质量，中国学者的学术成果在发表前应由本土学者审查。无论如何，无论在中国还是在西方，一个新的领域就是小说的跨文化研究。
Finally, the translation and introduction of Chinese cultural works can not only rely on local researchers and translators, but also need the full help of colleagues in the target language countries. As far as A Dream of Red Mansions is concerned, there are not a few studies on its translation, but unfortunately, most of the researchers are Chinese scholars, and they did not communicate with local scholars during their research. However, I think that in order to improve the academic quality, the academic achievements of Chinese scholars should be reviewed by local scholars before publication. In any case, whether in China or in the West, a new field is the cross-cultural study of novels.

=9 提建议=
您自1990年代来华留学，在华生活多年。作为中西文化的“摆渡人”，您是如何坚持翻译中国经典著作的？您对中德文化交流的未来发展前景有何预见？[What is the future of China-Germany Exchange in your opinion? ]是否可以给年青一代的汉学家、翻译家提出一些建议？
题中的“摆渡人”形象很好，“摆渡人”的形象历来是正面的，在欧洲也是俗称的“好听话”，这也是世界文学中的典型主题。在近5000年前（公元前2600年）的文学作品《吉尔伽美什史诗》就讲述了摆渡人乌尔-萨纳比带国王渡过死亡之水的故事。摆渡人是两个世界的纽带，起着至关重要的作用。其实，译者本身就是一个“摆渡人”，他/她将作者的思想境界、梦境、想象告诉读者，把读者带入目标语环境之中。
The image of "ferryman" in the title is very good. The image of "ferryman" has always been positive. It is also commonly known as "good obedience" in Europe, which is also a typical theme in world literature. Nearly 5,000 years ago (2600 BC), the literary work "Gilgamesh Epic" tells the story of ferryman Ur Sanabi who took the king through the water of death. The ferryman is the link between the two worlds and plays a vital role. In fact, the translator himself is a "ferryman". He/she tells the reader the author's ideological realm, dreams and imagination, and brings the reader into the target language environment.
学生时代时我就发现，中国学生都知道歌德、莎士比亚、海涅，而西方几乎没有人知道屈原、李白、苏东坡、曹雪芹，对此我感到非常震惊。尽管翻译工作在西方不被视为学术研究，没有受到高度重视，但我个人把中国文学作品，特别是名著和经典作品翻译成德文看作毕生的事业。我还在德国维藤建立了一个翻译工作坊，专门鼓励年轻一代的毕业生，为他们争取翻译项目，通常是将中国文学作品译成德语和英语，目前已经翻译出了。。。。。。。。[What translations have been published/done in your translation workshop in Germany? ]
When I was a student, I found that Chinese students all knew Goethe, Shakespeare and Heine, while almost no one in the West knew Qu Yuan, Li Bai, Su Dongpo and Cao Xueqin. I was very shocked. Although translation is not regarded as an academic research in the West and is not highly valued, I personally regard the translation of Chinese literary works, especially famous works and classic works, into German as a lifelong career. I also set up a translation workshop in Witten, Germany, to encourage the younger generation of graduates and strive for translation projects for them. Usually, Chinese literary works are translated into German and English, which have already been translated. . . . . . . .
当然，从翻译的本质上来说，这是一项语言服务。没有这种服务，研究就无法实现。多了解中国文化，对德国文化没有坏处。而德国民众通常不懂中文，因此通过翻译获得资讯似乎是唯一方式。不过对于专业从事中国文学创作的人来说，当然建议掌握汉语能力，因为读原著永远比读译著更真实。
Of course, translation is essentially a language service. Without this service, research cannot be realized. Knowing more about Chinese culture will do no harm to German culture. German people usually don't understand Chinese, so getting information through translation seems to be the only way. However, for those who specialize in Chinese literary creation, it is of course recommended to master Chinese ability, because reading the original works is always more authentic than reading the translated works.
10. 作为世界汉学研究会会长，您组织了多场与汉学相关的国际会议，包括一年一度的世界汉学研究大会（WACS），持续向世界展示中华文化的魅力。您既是译者，又是研究者，您如何看待这两个身份之间的转换？您对从事译研结合的学者有何建议吗？
在西方，学者的地位普遍高于译者。不过，就我而言，译者的工作还是很重要的，因为科学有赖于源头的发展（The work of the translator is nevertheless important, since science depends on the development of sources.）。最重要的是，如果没有翻译，大众就无法认识和了解外国语言与文化。因此，我既做翻译，也做学术研究，一方面是有时在翻译的过程中发现某个学术研究的选题或者已有选题再翻译中找到了一个突破点；另一方面，有时做学术研究需要阅读一些中国文学作品，但发现并没有德译本，所以干脆自己动手翻译。
In the West, the status of scholars is generally higher than that of translators. However, as far as I am concerned, the translator's work is still very important, because science depends on the development of the source. Most importantly, without translation, the public cannot know and understand foreign languages and cultures. Therefore, I do both translation and academic research; On the one hand, I sometimes find a breakthrough point in the process of translation when I find a topic of an academic research or in the re-translation of an existing topic; On the other hand, sometimes it is necessary to read some Chinese literary works for academic research, but it is found that there is no German translation, so I simply translate it myself.
翻译批评现在在中国是比较热门的学术研究方向，拿《红楼梦》为例。我个人认为，做相关翻译批评的学者首先自己也应该是作家，有自己的代表作，或者翻译过一定的作品。此外，做翻译批评时最好将对象锁定为译本语言是母语的作品。如果一个人对自己的源语言掌握得很好，就能够分辨出字里行间的引申义和细微的差别，更好地评估选词、文体等是否得当。但可惜的是，中国红学届或者翻译学届几乎没有人具备这样的条件。
Translation criticism is now a popular academic research direction in China. Take a Dream of Red Mansions as an example. Personally, I think that scholars who do relevant translation criticism should first be writers themselves, have their own representative works, or have translated certain works. In addition, when making translation criticism, it is best to target works whose translation language is the mother tongue. If a person has a good grasp of his source language, he can distinguish the extended meaning and subtle differences between the lines, and better evaluate whether the choice of words and styles are appropriate. However, unfortunately, few people in the Chinese Redology or Translation Studies have such conditions.
我每年邀请100多位学术届同仁讲授他们各自领域的知识，主要是觉得做学问贵在终身学习。可以通过课程和会议间隙的讨论拓宽视野，有时不同领域的知识可以提供更广阔的研究视角。
Every year, I invite more than 100 academic colleagues to teach their knowledge in their respective fields, mainly because I think lifelong learning is the most important thing in learning. The horizon can be broadened through discussions between courses and conferences, and sometimes knowledge in different fields can provide a broader research perspective.
另外，我还建议做翻译的同仁一定要去原语/目标语国家生活一段时间。截至目前，我在中国生活了八年，每隔一段时间，新的表达方式都会扑面而来，每天都在学习，自然对我研究和翻译都有帮助。
In addition, I also suggest that colleagues who do translation must live in the source/target language countries for a period of time. Up to now, I have lived in China for eight years. Every once in a while, new expressions come to me and I study every day. Naturally, it is helpful for my research and translation.

=10 国际汉学中心=
11. 您是湖南师范大学“潇湘学者”特聘教授，并担任国际汉学中心主任。请问：该中心主要从事工作？您未来计划开展哪些项目推动中德文化交流？
国际汉学研究中心是国内国学与海外汉学研究的桥梁。来自世界各地、不同背景的学者，可以依托这个平台进行交流合作。我们从香港引进了来自美国的Margaret Chu，她在2021年初刚被聘为澳门科技大学副教授。她作为中心的兼职高级研究员，负责联系各国学者，评估和审阅中心的研究成果。朱女士还负责引进了许多同仁，包括来自牛津、加州和马萨诸塞州的同仁。另外，四位来自德国的学者已经被聘为外国语学院教授，其中两名也将加盟国际汉学研究中心。来自卡尔斯鲁厄的哲学家Ole Döring和来自杜塞尔多夫的历史学家Cord Eberspächer，他曾在那里担任孔子学院院长。中心的研究员正在共同构思编写《中国研究史》，包括有一卷总论和十卷单行本，该书预计将以英文、德文和中文同时出版。除此以外，中心正在研究四大名著，特别是《红楼梦》在西方的参与史。中心还正在积极翻译中国现当代文学作品和政治文献。
The International Sinology Research Center is a bridge between domestic Sinology and overseas Sinology research. Scholars from all over the world and from different backgrounds can rely on this platform for exchanges and cooperation. We introduced Margaret Chu from the United States from Hong Kong. She was just hired as an associate professor at Macau University of Science and Technology in early 2021. As a part-time senior researcher of the Center, she is responsible for contacting scholars from all over the world to evaluate and review the research results of the Center. Ms Zhu is also responsible for bringing in many colleagues, including colleagues from Oxford, California and Massachusetts. In addition, four scholars from Germany have been hired as professors of the Foreign Languages Institute, and two of them will join the International Sinology Research Center. Ole D ö ring, a philosopher from Karlsruhe, and Cord Ebersp ä cher, a historian from D ü sseldorf, where he served as the dean of Confucius Institute. Researchers at the Center are jointly conceiving the compilation of "History of Chinese Studies", including a general book and ten singles, which is expected to be published in English, German and Chinese at the same time. In addition, the center is studying the participation history of Four Great Classical Novels, especially A Dream of Red Mansions in the West. The Center is also actively translating modern and contemporary Chinese literary works and political documents.

=11. 曹雪芹和跨国文化=
从跨国文化的角度看曹雪芹你有合想法？

Woesler: Cao Xueqin and even more his protagonist Jia Baoyu both are early humanists, universalists and world citizens. The Red Chamber Dreams function worldwide. The Dream is a complex showroom of diverse aspects of Chinese cultures and is the embodiment and essence of Chinese cultures, but it has also a global impact, therefore it should be honoured as “World Documentary Heritage”.

吴漠汀：曹雪芹，尤其是他的主人公贾宝玉，都是早期的人文主义者，普世主义者和世界公民。《红楼梦》具有普世价值。《红楼梦》综合展示了中国的多元文化，是中国文化的集中体现和精华，同时在全球范围内产生影响，理应列入世界记忆遗产名录。

Cao Xueqin’s message is not simply the one of “Paradise Lost”, instead he himself made the best out of his life. Although being less wealthy than when his family still enjoyed the favour of the emperor, there was a payroll system and a social net intact in Early Qing China, where he received enough income to be independent from his rich relatives, to be selective on accepting jobs, to live a relaxed life in a small house in the nature, spending time with his family and friends, follow his own interests, like reading, writing and drinking wine, making kites for the children and thinking of the disadvantaged.

曹雪芹所传达的信息并不是简单的“失乐园”，相反，他把自己的生活过得很好。虽然比起他的家族享受皇帝的宠爱，他过得没有那么富裕，但清初中国有一套薪俸制度和一张完整的社会网，他获得了足够的收入，可以独立于富贵亲戚，可以有选择性地接受工作，可以在大自然的小房子里过着悠闲的生活，可以与家人和朋友共度时光，可以追随自己的兴趣，例如读书，写作和饮酒，可以为孩子们做风筝，可以为弱势群体着想。

Cao Xueqin was fully aware of his time and China’s cultural achievements, he was familiar with the different levels of society, he was a detailed observer and skilful narrator. He may have conceptualized the ending of the novel as a discussion about the different personalities of the characters in the novel and therefore displaying his reflection about life and his psychological understanding of the diversity of human nature. He was able to grasp the “spirit of time” (Zeitgeist) and with his autobiographical experience create an eternal coming-of-age novel not just for his family, for the Qing-Chinese, for Chinese people, but for mankind.

曹雪芹对自己所处的时代和中国的文化成就了如指掌，他熟悉社会的不同层面，他是一个细致的观察者和娴熟的叙述者。因此，他在小说中对人的不同个性的理解和对小说中人物性格的多样性进行了概念化的探讨。他能够把握“时代精神”，用他的自传体经历，不仅为他的家庭，为清朝的中国人，为中国人民，而且为人类，创作了一部永恒的成人小说。

This tradition of Coming-of-age novels is also a European one, like enlightenment philosopher Voltaire’s novel Candide or Optimism《老实人》shows at the very same time (1759) in Europe. Also Voltaire’s Candide has to leave the luxurious paradise of his childhood and strives for true love, but his main learning is more pessimistic, since Voltaire wrote the novel in opposition to Leibniz, who optimistically looked to China as “the best of all worlds”. Recent research findings show that China had a much larger influence on European enlightenment philosophers and we can be sure, that also Cao Xueqin was aware of some European literary traditions.

这种成熟的传统小说也是一个欧洲人,像启蒙运动哲学家伏尔泰在欧洲同时间出版的的小说《老实人》(1759年)。伏尔泰笔下的老实人不得不离开童年的奢华天堂，为追求真爱而奋斗，但他的主要学习内容却更为悲观，因为伏尔泰的小说与莱布尼茨截然相反，莱布尼茨乐观地认为中国是“所有世界中最好的”。最近的研究发现，中国对欧洲启蒙运动哲学家的影响要大得多，我们可以肯定，曹雪芹对欧洲的一些文学传统也有所了解。

=12. 《红楼梦》跟今天国内外的读者有什么关系？=

Woesler: The novel is an embodiment of “Zeitgeist”.

吴漠汀：小说作为 "时代精神 "的体现。

According to Georg Lukács’ Theory of the Novel, while the Epos (like Homer’s Ilias, which like the Dream reasons the stories in the divine realm) displayed a holistic world experience, a complete, self-contained culture, the novel displays, that the modern world has become infinitely large and has lost its homely quality.

根据格奥尔格-卢卡奇的小说理论，虽然Epos（像荷马的伊利亚斯，它像梦理由神界的故事）展示了一个整体的世界经验，一个完整的，自足的文化，小说展示，现代世界已经变得无限大，已经失去了它的家的品质。

The novel as a genre is no longer documenting just one culture, but represents, with the words of Walter Benjamin, the Organon of History. So the understanding of the novel changed with Lukacs to historical-philosophically. A novel is understood as typical for its historical era, the novel embodies the spirit of the epoch (Zeitgeist).

小说作为一种文体，不再只是记录一种文化，而是用瓦尔特-本雅明的话说，代表了历史的有机体。所以，对小说的理解随着卢卡奇的改变，变成了历史哲学的理解。小说被理解为其历史时代的典型，小说体现了时代精神（Zeitgeist）。

The Red Chamber Dreams are written in front of the background of the Manchu minority having taken over the power in formerly Han-shaped Ming-China (which was a multi-ethnic and crosscultural society) and families suffering the changing favor of changing emperors, with the Cao family being fostered by Kangxi and being persecuted by Yongzheng.

《红楼梦》写的是满族少数民族在原汉字形的明中国（这是一个多民族、跨文化的社会）掌握了政权，家庭遭受换代皇帝的宠爱，曹家被康熙扶植，被雍正迫害的背景前。

While the author in his time could not criticize the system and power of emperors, in the novel he came to terms with this life by seeking the guilt for the persecution in the growing decadence of the family (engaging in Daoism, leisure, poetry-writing, arts and music instead of learning for being able to earn a living) and in himself not fulfilling the expectations as the family heir. This description of decadence of a declining family reminds us of the novels of Tschechov (and e.g. in the Buddenbrooks by Mann, including the turn to arts and music).

虽然作者在他的时代无法批判帝制和皇权，但在小说中，他为家族的日益衰败（参加道教、娱乐、诗歌、艺术和音乐活动，而不是为了谋生而学习）和自己作为家族继承人没有实现家族期望感到自责，通过这样做，他也对这种生活做妥协。这种对没落家族颓废状况的描写，让我们想起了契诃夫的小说（如曼恩的《布登布鲁克》，包括对艺术和音乐的转向）

Moreover, with the detailed description of life on all social levels in early Qing Dynasty, the Dream appears as a documentary historical novel very much like Günter Grass’ The Tin Drum 1959.

此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的《铁皮鼓1959》非常相似，《铁皮鼓1959》是一部纪实历史小说。

=13 中德文化交流=
我们非常感佩您对中华文化的热爱、对推动中德文化交流做出的突出贡献！再次感谢您接受我的访问！祝您多结学术硕果！

Wir bewundern Ihre Liebe zur chinesischen Kultur und Ihren herausragenden Beitrag zur Förderung des kulturellen Austauschs zwischen Deutschland und China! Nochmals vielen Dank für dieses Interview! Ich wünsche Ihnen viele akademische Erfolge!

Woesler: Vielen Dank! Tatsächlich sehe ich es als eine der wichtigsten Aufgaben unserer Zeit, Menschen zusammenzubringen. Viele Nationen sind stolz auf ihre Kultur. Inzwischen wissen wir, dass keine Kultur besser oder schlechter ist als eine andere. Aber es ist faszinierend, und es fördert unsere Entwicklung als Individuen und als Menschheit insgesamt, von den verschiedenen Kulturen zu wissen. Wenn sich wie ich als Deutscher in die chinesische Kultur, auf der ganzen Welt Chinesen in andere Kulturen und Angehörige anderer Kulturen in die chinesische verlieben, so führt dies zu einer Bereicherung und einem Erblühen menschlicher Kultur insgesamt. So können die Menschen das Beste, das in ihnen steckt verwirklichen: Respekt und Toleranz.

Woesler: Thank you very much! Indeed, I see it as one of the most important tasks of our time to bring people together. Many nations are proud of their culture. By now we know that no culture is better or worse than another. But it is fascinating, and it promotes our development as individuals and as humanity as a whole, to know about the different cultures. If, like me as a German, Chinese people fall in love with Chinese culture, and all over the world Chinese people fall in love with other cultures, and members of other cultures fall in love with Chinese culture, this leads to an enrichment and blossoming of human culture as a whole. In this way, people can realize the best that is within them: Respect and tolerance.

吴漠汀：非常感谢你! 的确，我认为这是我们这个时代最重要的任务之一，就是把人们团结起来。许多国家都以自己的文化为荣。现在我们知道，没有任何一种文化比另一种文化更好或更差。但它是迷人的，它能促进我们作为个人和整个人类的发展，了解不同的文化。当像我这个德国人一样，中国人爱上了中国文化，全世界的中国人爱上了其他文化，其他文化的成员爱上了中国文化，这就导致了整个人类文化的丰富和绽放。这样，人们才能实现自己内心的最佳状态。尊重和宽容。

=Notes about the intercultural approach=
==《红楼梦》与其他世界文学作品的相似性——推荐《红楼梦》列入世界记忆遗产名录 Commonness between the Red Chamber Dreams and other World Literature Novels – Proposing the Red Chamber Dreams to the World Documentary Heritage List==

吴漠汀，湖南师范大学 Martin Woesler, Hunan Normal University

==Abstract==
In every culture, readers associate the literature they know with new literature they read. So literature is always cumulative, it grows out of existing literature and can refer back to it. When Western readers read the Red Chamber Dreams, they foremost associate novels and other pieces of literature of their own cultural tradition with the Dreams. This has also influenced the first full translation into German.
Cao Xueqin and even more his protagonist Jia Baoyu both are early humanists, universalists and world citizens. The Red Chamber Dreams function worldwide. The Dream is a complex showroom of diverse aspects of Chinese cultures and is the embodiment and essence of Chinese cultures, but it has also a global impact, therefore it should be honoured as “World Documentary Heritage”.

==Key words==
Western culture, reception tradition, German translation, Embodiment of Chinese cultures, global compatibility, World Documentary Heritage

==摘要==
在每一种文化中，读者都会把他们读到的新文学与已知文学联系起来，所以文学总是积累的，它从现有的文学中生长出来，并以已有文学为参考。西方读者在阅读《红楼梦》时，首先会把《红楼梦》与自身文化传统中的小说和其他文学作品联系起来，这也影响了首次德语全译本。
曹雪芹，尤其是他的主人公贾宝玉，都是早期的人文主义者，普世主义者和世界公民。《红楼梦》具有普世价值。《红楼梦》综合展示了中国的多元文化，是中国文化的集中体现和精华，同时在全球范围内产生影响，理应列入世界记忆遗产名录。

==关键词==

西方文化，传统保护，德国翻译，中国文化具像化表现，全球兼容，世界遗产文献 --Weiyafei (talk) 07:10, 28 December 2020 (UTC)Wei yafei

==1. Chinese Ethics==

To help the poor and disadvantaged belongs to the traditional core values of Chinese culture.

When we sit in the Beijing Subway today, the loudspeaker announcement reminds us, that it is Chinese traditional ethics to give seats to the disadvantaged (老弱病残孕让座是中国传统道德). We know of Cao Xueqin, that he supported the poor and disadvantaged, and that he made kites for children.

However, when we look closer at these “Chinese Ethics”, we discover, that they are claimed also in Indian Buddhism “karuna” and in the Christian tradition of “caritas” and in almost every civilization. Therefore, we might call these values “human ethics”.

中国伦理“扶贫济困”是中国文化的传统核心价值观。当我们今天坐在北京地铁时，扬声器的公告提醒我们，让弱势群体有座位是中国传统道德。我们知道曹雪芹，他支持穷人和处境不利的人，他为孩子们制作风筝。但是，当我们仔细观察这些“中国伦理学”时，我们发现，印度佛教“ karuna”，基督教的“明爱”传统以及几乎所有文明中也都声称拥有它们。因此，我们可以将这些价值观称为“人类道德”。--Wen Xiaoyi (talk) 15:24, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

==2. Compatibility Why do the Red Chamber Dreams function worldwide and have achieved world literature status even in their translations?==

2. 兼容性为什么《红楼梦》在世界范围内广泛流传，甚至在翻译领域中也取得了世界文学的地位？

First of all, the Red Chamber Dreams are, like novels worldwide, a piece of entertainment literature. In comparison to the drama, in which every element is compulsory and plays its part in the overall structure, in the novel the line of action itself is simpler and not so important, most of the scenes or episodes are loosely put together and fit in the broader theme of the novel.

首先，《红楼梦》和世界小说一样，是一部娱乐文学。与戏剧中的每一个元素都是强制性的，在整体结构中起作用的戏剧相比，小说的行动路线本身更简单，也不那么重要，大部分场景或情节都松散地组合在一起，这和小说更广泛的主题相吻合。

However, the lose arrangement of episodes of the Dreams comes from the tradition of almost unconnected episodes like in the Shuihuzhuan and is a step towards the greater coherence of the episodes, the aligning into a story line and the greater concentration on fewer protagonists. Therefore, the Dreams show clearly a step towards the Western tradition of novels, maybe because of growing Western influence in Qing dynasty.

然而，《红楼梦》章回结构不连续来自于《水浒传》中几乎没有联系的章回的传统，这是朝着章回更连贯、与故事线一致以及更集中于较少主角的方向迈出的一步。因此，《红楼梦》明显向西方小说传统迈进了一步，可能是因为西方对清代的影响越来越大。

==3. Impact of translator’s native culture on the translation process==

3.译者的本土文化对翻译过程的影响

There are intercultural parallels between the Red Chamber Dreams and Western works of literature.

《红楼梦》和西方文学作品之间有跨国文化的相似之处。

These parallels are fundamental for the translation and were explicitly and implicitly fundamental for the German translator Martin Woesler during his translation and editorial work on the first full German translation. In the following, I will mention some of the Western novels and pieces of literature, which the Western reader of the Dreams will immediately think of.

这些相似之处是翻译的根本，也是德文译者马丁-沃斯勒在翻译和编辑第一部德文全译本时明确和隐含的根本。下面，我将提到一些西方的小说和文学作品，西方的读者读到梦会立即想到这些作品。

==4. The novel as embodiment of “Zeitgeist”==

4. 小说作为 "时代精神 "的体现。

According to Georg Lukács’ Theory of the Novel, while the Epos (like Homer’s Ilias, which like the Dream reasons the stories in the divine realm) displayed a holistic world experience, a complete, self-contained culture, the novel displays, that the modern world has become infinitely large and has lost its homely quality.

根据格奥尔格-卢卡奇的小说理论，虽然Epos（像荷马的伊利亚斯，它像梦理由神界的故事）展示了一个整体的世界经验，一个完整的，自足的文化，小说展示，现代世界已经变得无限大，已经失去了它的家的品质。

The novel as a genre is no longer documenting just one culture, but represents, with the words of Walter Benjamin, the Organon of History. So the understanding of the novel changed with Lukacs to historical-philosophically. A novel is understood as typical for its historical era, the novel embodies the spirit of the epoch (Zeitgeist).

小说作为一种文体，不再只是记录一种文化，而是用瓦尔特-本雅明的话说，代表了历史的有机体。所以，对小说的理解随着卢卡奇的改变，变成了历史哲学的理解。小说被理解为其历史时代的典型，小说体现了时代精神（Zeitgeist）。

The Red Chamber Dreams are written in front of the background of the Manchu minority having taken over the power in formerly Han-shaped Ming-China (which was a multi-ethnic and crosscultural society) and families suffering the changing favor of changing emperors, with the Cao family being fostered by Kangxi and being persecuted by Yongzheng.

《红楼梦》写的是满族少数民族在原汉字形的明中国（这是一个多民族、跨文化的社会）掌握了政权，家庭遭受换代皇帝的宠爱，曹家被康熙扶植，被雍正迫害的背景前。

While the author in his time could not criticize the system and power of emperors, in the novel he came to terms with this life by seeking the guilt for the persecution in the growing decadence of the family (engaging in Daoism, leisure, poetry-writing, arts and music instead of learning for being able to earn a living) and in himself not fulfilling the expectations as the family heir. This description of decadence of a declining family reminds us of the novels of Tschechov (and e.g. in the Buddenbrooks by Mann, including the turn to arts and music).

虽然作者在他的时代无法批判帝制和皇权，但在小说中，他为家族的日益衰败（参加道教、娱乐、诗歌、艺术和音乐活动，而不是为了谋生而学习）和自己作为家族继承人没有实现家族期望感到自责，通过这样做，他也对这种生活做妥协。这种对没落家族颓废状况的描写，让我们想起了契诃夫的小说（如曼恩的《布登布鲁克》，包括对艺术和音乐的转向）

Moreover, with the detailed description of life on all social levels in early Qing Dynasty, the Dream appears as a documentary historical novel very much like Günter Grass’ The Tin Drum 1959.

此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的《铁皮鼓1959》非常相似，《铁皮鼓1959》是一部纪实历史小说。

==5. Coming-of-age and Alienation==

5. 成熟和异化

Abandoning the paradise-like garden in the Red Chamber Dreams is a symbol for leaving the protected childhood and arriving in the complex world of adults. With George Lukács theory of the novel, the protagonist starts to problematize the sense of his life, in the novel, the protagonist’s self permanently struggles with his environment.

抛弃《红楼梦》中天堂般的花园，是离开受保护的童年，进入复杂的成人世界的象征。随着乔治·卢卡奇的小说理论，主人公开始对他的生活感觉产生疑问，在小说中，主人公的自我一直与他的环境作斗争。

However, Cao Xueqin’s message is not simply the one of “Paradise Lost”, instead he himself made the best out of his life. Although being less wealthy than when his family still enjoyed the favour of the emperor, there was a payroll system and a social net intact in Early Qing China, where he received enough income to be independent from his rich relatives, to be selective on accepting jobs, to live a relaxed life in a small house in the nature, spending time with his family and friends, follow his own interests, like reading, writing and drinking wine, making kites for the children and thinking of the disadvantaged.

然而，曹雪芹所传达的信息并不是简单的“失乐园”，相反，他把自己的生活过得很好。虽然比起他的家族享受皇帝的宠爱，他过得没有那么富裕，但清初中国有一套薪俸制度和一张完整的社会网，他获得了足够的收入，可以独立于富贵亲戚，可以有选择性地接受工作，可以在大自然的小房子里过着悠闲的生活，可以与家人和朋友共度时光，可以追随自己的兴趣，例如读书，写作和饮酒，可以为孩子们做风筝，可以为弱势群体着想。

Cao Xueqin was fully aware of his time and China’s cultural achievements, he was familiar with the different levels of society, he was a detailed observer and skilful narrator. He may have conceptualized the ending of the novel as a discussion about the different personalities of the characters in the novel and therefore displaying his reflection about life and his psychological understanding of the diversity of human nature. He was able to grasp the “spirit of time” (Zeitgeist) and with his autobiographical experience create an eternal coming-of-age novel not just for his family, for the Qing-Chinese, for Chinese people, but for mankind.

曹雪芹对自己所处的时代和中国的文化成就了如指掌，他熟悉社会的不同层面，他是一个细致的观察者和娴熟的叙述者。因此，他在小说中对人的不同个性的理解和对小说中人物性格的多样性进行了概念化的探讨。他能够把握“时代精神”，用他的自传体经历，不仅为他的家庭，为清朝的中国人，为中国人民，而且为人类，创作了一部永恒的成人小说。

This tradition of Coming-of-age novels is also a European one, like enlightenment philosopher Voltaire’s novel Candide or Optimism《老实人》shows at the very same time (1759) in Europe. Also Voltaire’s Candide has to leave the luxurious paradise of his childhood and strives for true love, but his main learning is more pessimistic, since Voltaire wrote the novel in opposition to Leibniz, who optimistically looked to China as “the best of all worlds”. Recent research findings show that China had a much larger influence on European enlightenment philosophers and we can be sure, that also Cao Xueqin was aware of some European literary traditions.

这种成熟的传统小说也是一个欧洲人,像启蒙运动哲学家伏尔泰在欧洲同时间出版的的小说《老实人》(1759年)。伏尔泰笔下的老实人不得不离开童年的奢华天堂，为追求真爱而奋斗，但他的主要学习内容却更为悲观，因为伏尔泰的小说与莱布尼茨截然相反，莱布尼茨乐观地认为中国是“所有世界中最好的”。最近的研究发现，中国对欧洲启蒙运动哲学家的影响要大得多，我们可以肯定，曹雪芹对欧洲的一些文学传统也有所了解。

Also the German readership is familiar with the chronological following of the life of the protagonist and his development, the fate of a family over generations, the German readership knows this type of novel as the “Education novel” or “Coming-of-age-novel”. In Germany, the genre of the coming-of-age novel has a long tradition and it is shaped more by single characters, who appear as teachers (Goethe: Wilhelm Meister’s Apprenticeship威廉·麦斯特的学徒岁月 1795-96, Novalis 诺瓦利斯: Heinrich von Ofterdingen 《海因利·封·歐福特丁根》1802).

德国读者对主人公的生平及其发展、家族世代的命运都很熟悉，德国读者把这种类型的小说称为“教育小说”或“成长小说”。在德国,关于成长小说的体裁有着悠久的传统,它的形状更由单个字符,它更多的是被塑造为教师的单个人物(歌德：'Wilhelm Meister’s Apprenticeship威廉·麦斯特的学徒岁月 1795-96, Novalis 诺瓦利斯: Heinrich von Ofterdingen《海因利·封·歐福特丁根》1802)。

Wilhelm Meister, parallely to Jia Baoyu, is struggling with the traditional education, in Wilhelm Meister this is represented with the classics revived in Shakespeare’s dramas. Tradition can give orientation, but the personality of the protagonist needs to develop through emancipation is a wisdom, we can learn from all mentioned novels including the Dreams.

==6. Pornography and True Love, female rivals==

Sexuality is a basic human need and has developed into different shapes in all cultures. The German audience is familiar with erotic topics from the Middle Ages, in which sexuality was stylized. In the “Schwänke” of the 15th century (Wittenwielers Ring), erotic scenes are described sexually explicit.

与贾宝玉一样，威廉·迈斯特也在与传统教育作斗争，在《威廉·迈斯特》中，莎士比亚戏剧中复兴的经典作品代表了这一点。传统可以给予导向，但主人公的个性需要通过解放来发展是一种智慧，我们可以从包括《梦》在内的所有小说中学习。 “6。色情与真爱，女性对手" 性是人类的一种基本需求，在各种文化中形成了不同的形态。德国观众熟悉中世纪的情色话题，在这些话题中，性是程式化的。在15世纪的“Schwanke”(Wittenwielers Ring)中，情色场景被描述为露骨的性。

In the barock literature of the 17th century even the physical act is described extensively.

在17世纪的Barock文学中，甚至对物理行为也进行了广泛的描述。

According to „cumulativity“, every human being is a product of history and literature is based on previous literature, therefore the author of this pager thinks that this background has to be taken into account while translating.

根据“累积性”，每个人都是历史的产物，而文学是基于先前的文献，因此，该传呼机的作者认为翻译时必须考虑这一背景。

The best study on qing passion in the Dreams is the one by Anthony Yu, who understood it as desire and as the central motif of the Dreams. „The centrality of qing in shaping virtually every aspect of The Story of the Stone’s structure and meaning cannot be denied [...].“ (Anthony Yu 2001, 54).

关于梦中关于“情”最好的研究是安东尼·于（Anthony Yu）的研究，他将其理解为欲望和梦的中心主题。 “清香在塑造《石头的故事》的结构和意义的几乎每个方面的中心作用都不能否认。”（Anthony Yu 2001，54）。

In the framework story of the Dreams, the narrator consciously takes a stand against low-action and stereotypical pornographic literature as well as against the widespread romance novels (with the classic roles of the beautiful, talented woman and the poor scholar who finally achieves a respected position and prosperity by passing a civil service exam).

在《梦》的框架故事中，叙述者有意识地反对低俗的动作和陈规定型的色情文学，反对流传甚广的浪漫小说（以美丽的才女和通过公务员制度最终获得受人尊敬的地位的穷困书生为经典角色）。

In chapter 1 he says: ”of the true feelings of young people [...] nobody has reported about so far.”

在第一章中，他说：“关于年轻人的真实感受，[……]到目前为止还没有人报道过。”

Erotic scenes are described in a decent and associative way (“Game of clouds and rain”), while displaying another quality in its openness e.g. towards bisexuality.

情色场景被描述成一个体面和联想的方式（“云和雨的游戏”），同时显示了另一个开放性的性质，例如对双性恋。

The 'Red Chamber Dream' narrates the story of unfortunate lovers. Unfortunate lovers also in the West have a literary tradition, they constitute an archetype, such as Hero and Leander, Pyramus and Thisbe, Tristan and Isolde, Flore and Blanscheflur as well as Troilus and Cressida, the latter being considered the model for Arthur Brookes, who wrote Romeo and Juliet in 1562 and thus directly influenced Shakespeare.

《红楼梦》讲述了一对不幸的恋人的故事。不幸的恋人也有西方文学的传统,他们构成一个原型,如英雄和利安得、皮拉摩斯和提斯柏,特里斯坦与伊索尔德,凝花和Blanscheflur特洛伊罗斯和克雷西达,后者被认为是阿瑟·布鲁克斯的模型,他在1562年写了《罗密欧与朱丽叶》,从而直接影响了莎士比亚。玛丽安·加利克认为《红楼梦》和《浮士德》都是吸引我们的永恒女性的中心主题，顾城则称其为“永恒的处女”。

While Marián Galik saw as the central topic of both, the Dream and Faust, the eternal feminine, which draws us on high, Gu Cheng called it the “eternal virgine”.

玛丽安·加利克（Mariann Galik）认为《梦》和《浮士德》都是吸引我们的永恒女性的中心主题，顾城则称其为“永恒的处女”。

In Goethe’s coming-of-age novel Wilhelm Meisters Wanderjahre, we find a similar motif of female rivals, in the Keller 凯勒 The Green Henry 《绿衣亨利》1855, the hero turns away from an emphatically sexually designed figure and turns to the 'real' woman. In Jane Austen’s Pride and Prejudice 1813 Elizabeth and Lin Daiyu are similar, e.g. they both strive for real love (Zhuang 2011).

在歌德的成长小说Wilhelm Meisters Wanderjahre中，我们发现了类似的女性竞争主题，在凯勒The Green Henry（《绿衣亨利》1855）中，男主人公父亲早亡，母亲养育其成人。在简-奥斯汀的Pride and Prejudice（《傲慢与偏见》1813）中，伊丽莎白和林黛玉是相似的，比如她们都追求真爱（庄2011）。

==7. Feudal society and slavery==

7. 封建社会和奴隶

A widespread interpretation is that Jia Baoyu’s equal treatment of family members and slaves would be a manifesto to free the slaves. I also do not share this interpretation, since Aristotle, when he demanded democracy, would exclude slaves from the right to vote. So we cannot use modern concepts to judge on the past. In my understanding, Jia Baoyu was not fighting inequality, but looked at the people as humans and individuals.

人们普遍认为贾宝玉对待家庭成员和奴隶的平等对待是解放奴隶的宣言。我不同意这种解释，因为亚里士多德吁民主时，会将奴隶从投票权中剔除。所以我们不能用现代观点评判古人。我认为，贾宝玉并不是在为不平等而做斗争，而是将人区分为人或是个体。

Also the understanding of the servants as slaves does not match the description in the Dream, since some servants had servants themselves, the family took care after they left the Jia family to find a match for them and Jia Zheng refers to his daughter Yingchun as „yatou 丫头“, so it is inappropriate to translate this expression with slave. Therefore, the translator preferred “servant” over “slave” in the translation.

而且把仆人理解为奴隶与《红楼梦》中的描写不符，因为有些仆人自己还有仆人，贾府会在她们离府的时候为她们寻一门亲事，作为贾府对她们的照料；贾政也把自己的女儿迎春喊作 “丫头”，所以把这些翻译成奴隶是不合适的。因此英文翻译中采用“servant”会比“slave”更为合适。

Mo Yan in his speech at the Frankfurt Bookfair in 2009, when China was the guest of honor, draws the (similarly) parallel between the Dream and Goethe’s Sorrows of the Young Werther, that both expressed the wish to abandon feudal society. My own impression is that both do not express this wish, but that this is a later concept and interpretation and we should not apply this to judge the past.

2009年，莫言代表中国作为主宾国参加法兰克福书展时，在演讲中把《红楼梦》和歌德的《少年维特之哀》画上了约等号，表达了抛弃封建社会的愿望。我自己的感觉是，两者都没有表达这个愿望，但这是后来的概念和解释，我们不应该以此来判断过去。

==8. Tragedy of all tragedies==

8.最悲剧的悲剧

Aristotle explained in On the Tragedy (Poetics VI), that tragedies move people more than comedies because they “imitate [mimēsis] an action that is serious, complete, and of a certain magnitude” (Aristotle 1971, 51), This high esteem of the tragedy in Europe is partly ascribed to the loss of Aristotle’s work On the Comedy.

亚里士多德在《悲剧论》（诗学VI）中解释道，悲剧之所以比戏剧更加动人，是因为它们“模仿（mimēsis）一种严肃、完整且具有一定规模的行动”（Aristotle 1971，51）。悲剧在欧洲拥有崇高地位部分归因于亚里士多德的作品《论喜剧》的失传。

While Europe has the Hamlet as its tragedy of all tragedies, the lack of tragic literature in Chinese literary tradition has long been lamented. Wang Guowei sees the Dream as "tragedy of all tragedies". To Wang Guowei the suffering of Faust and Jia Baoyu is central in the novels. However, many scholars contest that Faustianism is central for Chinese culture.

欧洲悲剧中以《哈姆雷特》为悲剧，而中国文学传统中悲剧文学的缺失，长期以来被人们所惋惜。王国维认为《梦》是“所有悲剧中的悲剧”。对王国维来说，浮士德和贾宝玉的苦难是小说的中心。然而，许多学者认为浮士德主义是中国文化的核心。

In 18th century Europe, we saw a new development in the genre of the drama, to establish a “bourgeois tragedy”.

在18世纪的欧洲，我们看到了戏剧体裁的新发展，确立了“资产阶级悲剧”。

It developed as an emancipatory movement in the 18th century in London, Paris and Germany, and demonstrated that tragedy was not reserved to rulers, but was also imagineable for lower noblemen and ordinary citizens. The Dream at the same time as the bourgeois tragedy in Europe shows a tragic story of a mid-level noble family which loses its titles and privileges.

它作为一场解放运动在18世纪的伦敦、巴黎和德国发展起来，并证明了悲剧并非只发生在统治者身上，也可能发生在下层贵族和普通公民身上。《梦》与欧洲资产阶级悲剧同时上演，讲述的是一个中层贵族家庭失去头衔和特权的悲剧故事。

==9. “Non-Binary” Novels==

9. “非二元”小说

One of the things attracting Western readers is the adorable but mysterious protagonist Jia Baoyu. With his open bisexual orientation and his interest in his mates regardless of their social status, he appears “modern” or at least displaced in time. His struggle with traditional learning makes him appear sympathetic, his long states of rapture out of the world give him both the aura of a timeless character and of mystery.

一个吸引西方读者的东西是可爱而神秘的主人公贾宝玉。由于他开放的双性恋倾向和他对伴侣的兴趣，不管他们的社会地位如何，他显得“现代”或至少在时间上流离失所。他与传统学习的斗争使他显得富有同情心，他从世界上长期的狂喜给了他永恒的性格和神秘的气息。

With the bisexual orientation of the Dreams’ protagonist, the novel appears non-binary. According to German sinologist Karl-Heinz Pohl (2018), binaries are just superficial, ultimately decisive is the Heart Sutra. Today, the novel is listed among the genre of non-binary literature (see e.g. the bibliographical list on https://www.goodreads.com/list/tag/non-binary), in which contrasts are dissolved deconstructivistically.

随着梦中主人公的双性取向，小说呈现出非二元性。德国汉学家卜松山(2018)认为，二进制只是表面现象，最终起决定性作用的是“心经”。今天，这部小说被列为非二元文学的一个流派（参见https://www.goodreads.com/list/tag/non-binary)，其中的反差被解构主义地化解了。

==10. Foreign Cultures in the Red Chamber Dreams==

10.红楼梦中的异邦文化

Foreign Cultures frequently appear in the Dreams in all kinds of varieties, like exoticism with the many objects in the household and presented to the household as novelties, especially the blond girl of the same age as Baoyu referred to in person (combining different origins and cultures, including European, Japanese, Chinese) or several times on paintings, one time shown with wings as an angel.

红楼梦中经常出现各种各样的异邦文化元素，例如许多贾府物品带有异国情调，并是以新奇的形式呈现给贾府的，尤其是其中提到的与宝玉同龄的金发女孩（结合了不同的来历和文化，包括欧洲，日本，中国），金发女孩也多次在绘画中出现，有一次是以带翅膀的天使的形象出现。

The playful combination of different traditions we can see also when a religious dress is described, which carries characteristics of different religions. Similarly, the Daoist monk and the Confucian priest appear together. Cao Xueqin wanted to show the richness and diversity, also with the many topics and societal levels of the novel. Even a variety of Christian motifs can be found, like when Jia Baoyu is not recognized by his father in chapter 120 and when he disappears, all parallel to Jesus Christ.

宗教服饰带有不同宗教的特点，在描述一种宗教服饰时，我们也能体味不同宗教传统的玩味结合。同样，道士和儒士也可一起出现。曹雪芹想表现出小说的丰富性和多样性，同时也要展现出小说的众多主题和社会层次。在书中甚至可以找到各种基督教的主题，比如第120章贾宝玉不被父亲认可，以及贾宝玉消失的时候，这些都与耶稣基督平行。

The variety of cultures is paralleled with the variety of elements of different dynasties, which makes it timeless and therefore even more a masterpiece of Chinese art and a masterpiece of human art. Therefore I would like to nominate the Red Chamber Dreams as “World Documentary Heritage”.

文化的多样性与不同朝代的元素多样性相辅相成，这种多样性便其变得永恒，甚至因此而成为中国艺术杰作和人类艺术杰作。因此，我想提名《红楼梦》为“世界纪录片遗产”。

==References 参考文献==

*Anthony, C. Yu. (2001). Rereading the Stone: Desire and the Making of Fiction in Dream of the Red Chamber. Princeton University Press.
*Aristotle. (1971). Poetics. Trans. S. H. Butcher. Ed. Hazard Adams. Critical Theory since Plato. ew York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 48-66.
*Woesler, Martin, ed., Cao Xueqin, Gao E et al. (2016). Der Traum der Roten Kammer oder Die Geschichte vom Stein [Red Chamber Dreams or The Story of the Stone], Peking: Foreign Languages Press, ISBN 9787119094120, 4813 pages, 6 vols., hardcover, transl. by Rainer Schwarz and Martin Woesler; Chinese-German bilingual edition
*Woesler, Martin. (2011). “Being Explicit About the Implicit – John Minford’s Translation of the last Forty Chapters of The Story of the Stone with a Field Study on two Sexually Arousing Scenes”. Hong lou meng xue kan 6: 274-289
*Woesler, Martin. (2010). “ ’To Amuse the Beaux and Belles’ The Early Western Reception of the Hongloumeng”. Journal of Sino-Western Communications 2 (2010.12) 2:81-107
*Zhuang, Xiuhua. (2011). Self, Ideal and Salvation: A Comparative Study of Jane Austen’s Elizabeth and Cao Xueqin’s Lin Daiyu. Journal of Language Teaching and Research, Vol. 2, No. 2, pp. 420-423, March 2011. Fulltext: http://www.academypublication.com/issues/past/jltr/vol02/02/19.pdf.

2021 Interview with Duan Yuanyuan

2021-03-04T13:42:04Z

Bebery: /* 9 译研结合 */

'''访谈提纲 Interview with Martin Woesler by Duan Yuanyuan'''

=1 让·莫内讲席教授=
吴教授您好，非常感谢您拨冗接受我的访谈！首先恭喜您获得“让·莫内讲席教授”荣誉称号，此地位是欧盟对从事欧洲一体化教学与研究学者的最高学术承认！您真可谓是一位欧盟的学术大使！据悉，该项目申请难度颇大，中国今年只有湖南师范大学、四川大学和中国政法大学三所大学获得资助。您可否借此次获奖的机缘，说明你眼中中欧的学术交流呢？
不客气！的确，我把自己看作是中欧之间的“文化大使”，把这次获得“让·莫内讲席教授”称号看作是在华工作、学习、生活近三十年的一个阶段性总结。许多西方人认为在华生活是一个极大的挑战，对此我并不否认，但是挑战之余，我还从中看到了变革[What kind of transformation are we talking about here? ]的必要性，而且变革只有通过接触和交流才能实现。中国应该有更多的欧洲学者，中国也应该成为德国每一所大学亟需讨论的议题。
You're welcome! Indeed, I regard myself as a "cultural ambassador" between China and Europe, and I regard winning the title of "Professor Jean Monnet Lecture" as a phased summary of nearly 30 years of work, study and life in China. Many Westerners think that living in China is a great challenge, which I don't deny, but besides the challenge, I also see the necessity of change, and change can only be realized through contact and communication. There should be more European scholars in China, and China should also become an urgent topic for every German university to discuss.
欧盟委员会2020年在全球范围内授予了70个让·莫内教席，且每所大学最多可获一个名额。中国境内大学上次获得还是在2016年。“让·莫内讲席教授”传统上主要关注欧盟相关研究。现在欧盟委员会把这个奖项授予在中国任教的德国汉学家，这说明欧盟委员会已经认识到批判性地对比其它国家和欧盟发展模式的重要性。
In 2020, the European Commission awarded 70 Jean Monnet chairs worldwide, and each university can get up to one place. The last time universities in China won it was in 2016. Traditionally, "Professor Jean Monnet" mainly focuses on EU-related research. Now the European Commission has awarded this award to German sinologists who teach in China, which shows that the European Commission has realized the importance of critically comparing the development models of other countries with those of the European Union.
我不想把欧盟在中国的表现作为中国的反面典型，而是用批判性的眼光看待。中国学生正是通过批判性思维树立价值观。我曾做过调查，结果显示，很多中国学生认为欧盟的政治一体化还没有成功，英国脱欧反映了欧盟的软弱，但我想传达的知识是，欧盟已经在运作了，只是方式不同而已：即追求的不是快速而精干的决策过程，而是等待、讨论、参与和妥协。
I don't want to take the EU's performance in China as a negative example of China, but look at it critically. It is through critical thinking that Chinese students establish values. I have done a survey, and the results show that many Chinese students think that the political integration of the EU has not been successful, and Brexit reflects the weakness of the EU, but the knowledge I want to convey is that the EU is already in operation, only in different ways: it is not a fast and lean decision-making process, but waiting, discussing, participating and compromising.
同时，英国脱欧正表明欧盟每个成员都有随时离开的自由，这被视为一种成就。所以欧洲未必比中国差，只是不同而已。而当中国学生乐于接受不同的时候，他们的个性就会得到发展，成熟起来，适合国际就业市场。因此，我很鼓励学生去欧洲交换学习一两个学期。
At the same time, Brexit shows that every EU member has the freedom to leave at any time, which is regarded as an achievement. Therefore, Europe is not necessarily worse than China, it is just different. When Chinese students are willing to accept differences, their personalities will develop and mature, which is suitable for the international job market. Therefore, I encourage students to go to Europe for exchange study for one or two semesters.
申请“让·莫内讲席”项目时，我就在材料中表明该项目的落脚点在于中国和欧洲的比较，课题还囊括不同的教育体系、社会各领域的数字化以及对数据隐私的保护。通过该项目，我会推荐几名德国同事来中国短期或者长期工作，也会推荐中国同事去欧洲短期访学。并针对该项目，设置课程专题对比中欧近来的对外政策，以期激励中国塑造更加完整的海外形象。
When applying for the "Jean Monnet Lecture" project, I indicated in the materials that the foothold of the project lies in the comparison between China and Europe, and the topic also includes different education systems, digitalization in various fields of society and protection of data privacy. Through this project, I will recommend several German colleagues to work in China for a short or long time, and I will also recommend Chinese colleagues to visit Europe for a short time. In view of this project, a course topic is set up to compare the recent foreign policies of China and Europe, in order to encourage China to shape a more complete overseas image.

=2 《红楼梦》首次全译本=
2.您的代表作是《红楼梦》德语全译本，您是如何走上汉学之路的呢？可否谈谈与史华慈合译《红楼梦》的初衷？How did you begin to learn Chinese and how to stick to the path of sinology for so many years? Why did you choose to translate 红楼梦？
《红楼梦》的意义大于个人，是一件永恒的艺术品，应该提升到“世界遗产”的地位。目前，欧洲只有半数国家出版《红楼梦》译本。1989年我刚上大学的时候，德文版《红楼梦》也只有弗兰茨-库恩的节译本，共40章，只有原文体量的三分之一。与库恩的其他中国优秀小说译本在语言上几乎没有差别，带有浓厚的德国地方色彩。我也注意到了译文的不足之处。他把《红楼梦》书名中的“楼”翻译成“城堡”。这种译法也许比较适合欧洲读者的阅读口味，但就中国文化、中国历史、中国环境而言，我认为不太准确。这些不足之处也可解释为什么大卫-霍克斯和约翰-闵福德的译本在德国广受欢迎。
A Dream of Red Mansions is more meaningful than an individual. It is an eternal work of art and should be promoted to the status of "World Heritage". At present, only half of European countries have translated a Dream of Red Mansions. When I first went to college in 1989, the German version of a Dream of Red Mansions was only a flantz-Kuhn excerpt, with a total of 40 chapters, only one third of the original volume. There is almost no difference in language with Kuhn's other excellent Chinese novel translations, with strong German local color. I also noticed the shortcomings of the translation. He translated "Lou" in the title of A Dream of Red Mansions into "Castle". This translation may be more suitable for European readers, but I don't think it is accurate in terms of Chinese culture, Chinese history and Chinese environment. These shortcomings can also explain why the translations of David Hawkes and John Minford are so popular in Germany.
XX年/契机我开始重新翻译《红楼梦》。也是通过这个项目，我申请到了北京大学德意志学术交流中心（Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst，简称DAAD）奖学金。因此我也得以在北京大学学习X个月。[When did you study in Peking University? And for how long?]当时的选拔委员会主席是沃尔夫冈·顾彬（Wolfgang Kubin，中文名顾彬），他后来成为我的博士生导师之一。随后在北京，我多次参观了红楼梦研究所。参观之时张#送给我一本《红楼梦》辞典。后来回到德国，我与马汉茂（Helmut Martin）合作。从他那里我了解到，史华慈（Rainer Schwarz）已经将小说前80章翻译出来，并将自己的译文交给他出版，马汉茂让我审阅了史华兹的译本。不过译文暂未达到出版质量，[Can you give more details of why it can not be published yet? ]还需修订。
XX Year/Opportunity I began to retranslate A Dream of Red Mansions. It was also through this project that I applied for a scholarship from Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst (DAAD) of Peking University. So I was able to study at Peking University for X months. At that time, the chairman of the selection committee was Wolfgang Kubin (Chinese name Gu Bin), who later became one of my doctoral supervisors. Later in Beijing, I visited the Dream of Red Mansions Research Institute many times. During the visit, Zhang # gave me a dictionary of a Dream of Red Mansions. Later, when I returned to Germany, I cooperated with Helmut Martin. I learned from him that Rainer Schwarz had translated the first 80 chapters of the novel and gave him his own translation for publication. Ma Hanmao asked me to review Schwartz's translation. However, the translation has not yet reached the publishing quality and needs to be revised.
这次翻译尝试于我而言具有重大意义，我认为修改史华兹的译本使其达到出版水平比自己独立完成120章的翻译更重要。我花了几年时间修订史华兹的译文，随后自己翻译了后40回。然后按照前80回的风格重新修改我翻译的后40回，其中人名的翻译统一采用正式的拼音系统及其拼写方法，且并非采用标准的汉语拼音，而是按照德语书写方式，这样做的目的是尽可能地吸引更多读者的关注，且避免读者出现行文风格“跳脱”感受。
This translation attempt is of great significance to me. I think it is more important to revise Schwartz's translation to the publishing level than to complete the translation of 120 chapters independently. It took me several years to revise Schwartz's translation, and then I translated the last 40 times myself. Then I revised the last 40 times of my translation according to the style of the first 80 times, Among them, the translation of names adopts the formal Pinyin system and its spelling method, and does not adopt the standard Chinese Pinyin, but according to the German writing method. The purpose of this is to attract more readers' attention as much as possible, and to avoid readers' feeling of "jumping" in writing style.
现在，读者可获得完整、精细的译本，译本必要处附有注释。之后在XX年X月[When will the fifth edition be published? ]会出版第五版，该版本会根据读者意见和自己对原文的重新理解再进行改进。比如在我未出版的120章全译本中，很多人名的翻译也考虑到了名字的中文含义。[What amendments will you make in the fifth edition of the Chamber? Could you please list some? ]
Now, readers can get a complete and detailed translation, with notes where necessary. Then [when will the fifth edition be published? ] will publish the fifth edition, which will be improved according to readers' opinions and their own re-understanding of the original text. For example, in my unpublished full translation of 120 chapters, the translation of many names also takes into account the Chinese meaning of names. [What amendments will you make in the fifth edition of the Chamber? Could you please list some? ]

=3 欧洲红学=
3.您曾在国内红学权威刊物《红楼梦学刊》上发表过两篇文章，以德国人的视角叙述西方对《红楼梦》的了解，并介绍德译本情况以及西方学者的理解及评价。从这两篇文章可以看出，《红楼梦》在西方的传播已变换形式，由文本本身的传播向舞台剧等多模态形态发展。请问现今欧洲的红学研究、传播现状如何？您认为《红楼梦》对国内外读者有何影响？
小说是“时代精神”的体现。《红楼梦》于1791年首次出版，其创作背景是中国少数民族之一的满族统治下的清朝，曹家或受康熙宠信或备受雍正冷落以致抄家没落。囿于时代背景，作者在当时无法公开批判帝制皇权，但在小说中，他在家庭日益衰败（从事道教、闲暇、诗歌创作、艺术和音乐，而不是为了能够谋生而学习）和自己没有实现作为家族继承人的期望中，寻求被迫害的根源。这种对名家望族没落之路的描写使我们想起了契诃夫的小说。此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的纪实性历史小说《铁皮鼓》(1959年)非常相似。最值得一提的是《红楼梦》和托马斯·曼的《布登勃洛克一家》（1901年）。两部小说都描写了出生富贵的年轻一代人的颓废、没落、溃散，以及一个家族的社会地位和经济状况的逐渐没落与覆灭。托马斯·曼的小说是以资产阶级社会的巨大变革为背景，而曹雪芹的作品则选取了某个朝代的更迭时期作为时代背景，在其中帝王利益与家族利益发生了冲突! 有趣的是，两部作品中的主要角色都挑选了英年早逝的类似人物。《红楼梦》里林黛玉为情而亡，秦可卿因乱伦自尽，贾元春和妙玉也是突然死亡。在《布登勃洛克一家》里克拉拉在婚后不久即死于脑结核，托马斯在牙科手术后去世，汉诺死于伤寒。两部作品都在结构和主题上运用了影射等大量的艺术手法，以丰富的故事进展描绘出一幅衰败的景象。因此，这种并行发展令人惊讶，很难说《布登勃洛克一家》的创作没受到《红楼梦》的影响。
The novel is the embodiment of "the spirit of the times". A Dream of Red Mansions was first published in 1791. Its creation background was the Qing Dynasty under the rule of Manchu, one of China's ethnic minorities. The Cao family was either favored by Kangxi or neglected by Yongzheng, resulting in the decline of property ownership. Constrained by the background of the times, the author could not publicly criticize the imperial power at that time, but in the novel, he sought the root of persecution in the declining family (engaged in Taoism, leisure, poetry creation, art and music, instead of studying in order to make a living) and his failure to realize his expectation of being the heir of the family. This decadent description of declining families reminds us of Chekhov's novels. In addition, the detailed description of the life of all social strata in the early Qing Dynasty in A Dream of Red Mansions is very similar to Gunter Grass's documentary historical novel Tin Drum (1959). The most noteworthy ones are A Dream of Red Mansions and Thomas Mann's Budenbrock Family (1901). Both novels describe the decadence, decline and collapse of the wealthy young generation, as well as the gradual decline and collapse of a family's social status and economic situation. Thomas Mann's novels are set against the background of great changes in bourgeois society, while Cao Xueqin's works choose the change period of a certain dynasty as the background of the times, in which the interests of emperors and families conflict! Interestingly, the main characters in the two works have chosen similar characters who died young. In a Dream of Red Mansions, Lin Daiyu died of love, Qin Keqing committed suicide due to incest, and Jia Yuanchun and Miaoyu also died suddenly. In the Budenbrock Family, Clara died of brain tuberculosis shortly after marriage, Thomas died after dental surgery, and Hanno died of typhoid fever. Both works use a lot of artistic techniques such as innuendo in structure and theme, and depict a declining scene with rich story progress. Therefore, this parallel development is surprising. It is hard to say that the creation of the Budenbroc Family was not influenced by a Dream of Red Mansions.

4.您曾在欧洲多所学校任教，请问现今欧洲汉学的研究状况如何？
You have taught in many European schools. What is the current research status of Sinology in Europe?

=5 为何从古典文学的翻译转向中国现当代文学的翻译？=
除了《红楼梦》这一代表译作之外，您还翻译了包括鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱锺书、韩少功、贾平凹等在内的一批著名作家的优秀作品。可否谈谈为什么选择不同时代作家的作品？您又是如何再现他们不同的写作风格？[This question intends to know about why you choose to translate works of those writers. Is it because of personal interests or the publisher asking you to do so?
I think the section of Xu Zechen serves as good interview answers. As Chinese readers, we are desperate to know what things are like from Westerners’ perspective. ]
为何从古典文学的翻译转向中国现当代文学的翻译？
Why did you shift from the translation of classical literature to the translation of modern and contemporary Chinese literature?
不同时代的作品反映出不同的时代背景，这些作品对我个人而言是很好的窗口，可以窥探不同时期中国的社会面貌，还可与同期的欧洲文学进行比较。贾平凹作为20世纪80年代以来中国最伟大的作家之一，英译本很少。究其原因，首先在于他的作品植根于山西农村，带有浓重的地域风俗习惯。首先读懂原文对译者来说就是一项挑战，更不用提在译入语中找到对应的表达。我在翻译贾平凹的XX中就遇到了这个问题。。。。。。。。[Can you list some difficulties when translating Jia Pingwa’s or any other author’s works? We like the details.]
The works of different times reflect different backgrounds of the times. These works are a good window for me personally. I can spy on the social outlook of China in different periods and compare them with European literature in the same period. Jia Pingwa, as one of the greatest writers in China since 1980s, has few English versions. The reason lies in the fact that his works are rooted in Shanxi rural areas and have strong regional customs. It is a challenge for translators to understand the original text first, not to mention finding the corresponding expression in the target language. I encountered this problem in translating Jia Pingwa's XX. . . . . . . .
对于译者来说，翻译不同作者的作品时面对的翻译难点不同。而不同的译者有着不同的处理方式，这也能解释为何同一部作品有几个翻译版本，且翻译策略各有不同。我深知译者的文化背景对译本翻译策略的选择有很大影响，所以有些作品即便存在译本，我还是选择重新翻译。从鲁迅的短篇小说中，我们可以读出作者内心的矛盾：文学能改变世界吗？难道一定要身体力行才能改变世界吗？难道连唤醒那些像阿Q一样任由自己被牵着走，任人宰割的昏昏欲睡的同胞们也能做到吗？当无法改变自己和社会的命运时，唤醒他们还有什么用呢？作为译者，我们如何再现这种矛盾心理，如何处理鲁迅在翻译中有些古板的早期白话，如何与他对日常政治事件的论述。这些都是翻译中必不可免的问题。目前已有的鲁迅作品德译本在这些方面的处理方式多样。巴金在受到批评后修改了三部曲之一的《家》，删除了缠足现象。在翻译这部作品的过程中，译者必须决定是翻译原版还是删减后的版本。
For translators, translation difficulties are different when translating works of different authors. Different translators have different ways of dealing with it, which can explain why there are several translated versions of the same work and the translation strategies are different. I know that the translator's cultural background has a great influence on the choice of translation strategies, so I choose to retranslate some works even if there are translations. From Lu Xun's short stories, we can read the author's inner contradiction: Can literature change the world? Do you have to practice to change the world? Can we even wake up those sleepy compatriots who let themselves be led and slaughtered like Ah Q? What's the use of awakening them when they can't change their own destiny and that of society? As translators, how do we reproduce this ambivalence, how do we deal with Lu Xun's rigid early vernacular in translation, and how do we communicate with his exposition of daily political events? These are all inevitable problems in translation. At present, the existing German versions of Lu Xun's works deal with these aspects in various ways. After being criticized, Ba Jin revised Home, one of the trilogy, and deleted foot binding. In the process of translating this work, the translator must decide whether to translate the original version or the abridged version.
我个人很喜欢徐则臣的作品。在2009年（北上2015年才出版）[Is this book called <北上>？]的法兰克福书展上，他的故事《北上》受到广泛好评。事实上，他的生活经历与我有些重叠部分。我们都在北京大学学习过，只不过他比我早入学一点（多久）。当时校园里有一种亚文化，博士生们住在餐厅旁边的闲置房间里，因为他们对大学里的人、办事流程了如指掌，而且在独立的诗歌和艺术界也有联系，所以每逢有聚会，他们都很抢手，大家竞相邀请他们参加聚会。那时的大学涌现着一股乐观主义的精神，起初门外涌现出私营商业市场，后来校园里传出“开公司”的口号。那时，毕业生不愿毕业就被分入特定的工作岗位，身上的自由和责任感促使他们闯一闯这个世界。故事里拿着盗版产品的街边小贩和软件开发产品的学生先锋也是这幅画的一部分。徐则臣将这种气氛真实地捕捉到，令人信服。他笔下的人物在我们心上扎根，爱上他们，学会在生活中打拼。也是这种情感体验上的共鸣促使我翻译《北上》这部作品。
Personally, I like Xu Zechen's works very much. At the Frankfurt Book Fair in 2009 (published in 2015), his story "Going North" was widely praised. In fact, his life experience overlaps with mine. We all studied at Peking University, but he entered school a little earlier than me. At that time, there was a subculture on campus. Doctoral students lived in idle rooms next to restaurants. Because they knew the people and procedures in the university like the back of their hand, and they also had contacts in independent poetry and art circles, they were very popular whenever there was a party, and everyone invited them to attend the party. At that time, there was a spirit of optimism in universities. At first, private commercial markets emerged outside the doors. Later, the slogan of "starting a company" came out on campus. At that time, graduates were assigned to specific jobs without graduating, and their freedom and sense of responsibility prompted them to enter the world. Street vendors with pirated products and student pioneers with software development products in the story are also part of this painting. Xu Zechen captured this atmosphere truly and convincingly. His characters take root in our hearts, fall in love with them and learn to work hard in life. It is also this resonance in emotional experience that prompted me to translate the work "North".

=6 跨文化身份=
6. 作为汉学家和翻译家，您的跨文化身份让你置身于东西方文明之间。当您从欧洲文化和文学背景来到中国的文化和文学背景中，在两种迥异的语言之间进行转换，是否感到自己的思维方式和行文风格发生了些许改变？[This question asks you whether living in China for almost eight years affects your translating ideologies? Is there any difference if you only learned Chinese but never lived in China for such a long time? ]

=7 中西合璧=
有人认为中华文化走出去最好的译介模式是“中西合璧”，如葛浩文和林丽君的译作在国内外产生了较大影响。您对此有何看法？[I think this answer is rather insufficient. ]
什么是理想的译者？韦努蒂认为译者应该是隐身的，看不见的。如果读者没有注意到所读文本是一个译本，那么译者就达到了完美的境界。我认为，原语文化的译者在理解原文上的确更占优势，但是在传达上就不如来自目标语文化的译者，只有这样的译者才能向目标读者传达想要传达的形象。已经掌握了两种文化和语言的人来做译者是最合适不过的。当然，如果译者本身就是作家就更好了，这样翻译出来的译文想必更贴近原作。
What is an ideal translator? Venuti believes that translators should be invisible and invisible. If the reader doesn't notice that the text he reads is a translation, then the translator has reached a perfect state. In my opinion, the translator of the source language culture does have an advantage in understanding the original text, but he is not as good as the translator from the target language culture in conveying it. Only in this way can the translator convey the image he wants to convey to the target readers. People who have mastered both cultures and languages are the most suitable translators. Of course, it would be better if the translator himself was a writer, so the translated version must be closer to the original.
译文总是一种新的创造，它在文字上不能再模仿原文，而在功能、效果等方面却可以再现原文的特点，所以葛浩文和林丽君这样的“中西合璧”的组合在翻译极具中国特色的作品时应该会比较合适。
Translation is always a new creation. It can no longer imitate the original text in words, but can reproduce the characteristics of the original text in terms of function and effect. Therefore, the combination of "Chinese and Western combination" such as Ge Haowen and Lin Lijun should be more appropriate when translating works with Chinese characteristics.

=8 中华文化外译传播=
8. 根据您的实践经验和理性思考，中华文化外译传播有哪些成功因素?
首先，对于普通读者而言，接受《红楼梦》第一步就必须有可读的译本，因此《红楼梦》在其它没有译本的国家的传播有赖于译者的工作。我认为等待引进不如主动输出。这样成功的例子不是没有。20世纪80年代，杨宪益倡议出版熊猫丛书，意在向国外译介中国当代、现代和古代的优秀作品，所出版的杂志和从书在国外有相当大的影响，几乎成为很长时期内国外研究中国汉学、对中国文学有兴趣的人了解中国文学的唯一的窗口。因此，中国相关机构可借鉴当时的经验，在还没有译本的欧洲国家作出尝试。
First of all, for ordinary readers, the first step to accept a Dream of Red Mansions is to have a readable translation, so the dissemination of a Dream of Red Mansions in other countries without a translation depends on the translator's work. I think it is better to take the initiative to export than to wait for import. There are not no such successful examples. In 1980s, Yang Xianyi initiated the publication of Panda Series, aiming at translating and introducing excellent works of contemporary, modern and ancient China to foreign countries. The published magazines and books have a considerable influence abroad, and have almost become the only window for people who study Chinese Sinology abroad and are interested in Chinese literature to understand Chinese literature for a long time. Therefore, relevant Chinese institutions can learn from the experience at that time and try in European countries that have not yet translated them.
其次，西方尤其是美国的《红楼梦》研究开始用现代理论解读《红楼梦》，如 “感觉”、“同性恋”等。因此在每隔几年举办一次的红学会议上，整理以前的研究，撰写一部西方学术界与小说接触史就显得十分重要。
Secondly, the study of "A Dream of Red Mansions" in the West, especially in the United States, began to interpret "A Dream of Red Mansions" with modern theories, such as "feeling" and "homosexuality". Therefore, it is very important to sort out the previous research and write a history of contact between western academic circles and novels at the Redology Conference held every few years.
我很早就开始关注《红楼梦》在西方的接受情况。其刚进入西方世界之时并不是一片叫好，直至被列为世界文学的一部分，这一过程持续了很多年。一方面是因为完整的译本直至XX年才出现，另一方面是因为许多西方汉学家和译者的民族中心主义世界观，他们认为只有本土的文学才称得上世界文学，而对别国文学视若无睹。在我看来，跨越时间空间，对优秀作品的认同还是同样的，因此《红楼梦》应该成为世界文化遗产。
I began to pay attention to the acceptance of A Dream of Red Mansions in the West very early. When it first entered the western world, it was not applauded until it was listed as a part of world literature, which lasted for many years. On the one hand, the complete translation did not appear until XX years; On the other hand, it is because many western sinologists and translators have an ethnocentric world outlook. They think that only local literature can be called world literature and turn a blind eye to other countries' literature. In my opinion, across time and space, the recognition of excellent works is the same, so A Dream of Red Mansions should become a world cultural heritage.
最后，中国文化作品的译介研究不能仅仅依靠本土研究者、译者，还需要目标语国家的同人鼎力相助。就《红楼梦》而言，对其翻译的研究不在少数，但遗憾的是，其中研究者多为中国学者，他们研究时没有与本土学者交流。但我认为，为了提升学术质量，中国学者的学术成果在发表前应由本土学者审查。无论如何，无论在中国还是在西方，一个新的领域就是小说的跨文化研究。
Finally, the translation and introduction of Chinese cultural works can not only rely on local researchers and translators, but also need the full help of colleagues in the target language countries. As far as A Dream of Red Mansions is concerned, there are not a few studies on its translation, but unfortunately, most of the researchers are Chinese scholars, and they did not communicate with local scholars during their research. However, I think that in order to improve the academic quality, the academic achievements of Chinese scholars should be reviewed by local scholars before publication. In any case, whether in China or in the West, a new field is the cross-cultural study of novels.

=9 提建议=
您自1990年代来华留学，在华生活多年。作为中西文化的“摆渡人”，您是如何坚持翻译中国经典著作的？您对中德文化交流的未来发展前景有何预见？[What is the future of China-Germany Exchange in your opinion? ]是否可以给年青一代的汉学家、翻译家提出一些建议？
题中的“摆渡人”形象很好，“摆渡人”的形象历来是正面的，在欧洲也是俗称的“好听话”，这也是世界文学中的典型主题。在近5000年前（公元前2600年）的文学作品《吉尔伽美什史诗》就讲述了摆渡人乌尔-萨纳比带国王渡过死亡之水的故事。摆渡人是两个世界的纽带，起着至关重要的作用。其实，译者本身就是一个“摆渡人”，他/她将作者的思想境界、梦境、想象告诉读者，把读者带入目标语环境之中。
The image of "ferryman" in the title is very good. The image of "ferryman" has always been positive. It is also commonly known as "good obedience" in Europe, which is also a typical theme in world literature. Nearly 5,000 years ago (2600 BC), the literary work "Gilgamesh Epic" tells the story of ferryman Ur Sanabi who took the king through the water of death. The ferryman is the link between the two worlds and plays a vital role. In fact, the translator himself is a "ferryman". He/she tells the reader the author's ideological realm, dreams and imagination, and brings the reader into the target language environment.
学生时代时我就发现，中国学生都知道歌德、莎士比亚、海涅，而西方几乎没有人知道屈原、李白、苏东坡、曹雪芹，对此我感到非常震惊。尽管翻译工作在西方不被视为学术研究，没有受到高度重视，但我个人把中国文学作品，特别是名著和经典作品翻译成德文看作毕生的事业。我还在德国维藤建立了一个翻译工作坊，专门鼓励年轻一代的毕业生，为他们争取翻译项目，通常是将中国文学作品译成德语和英语，目前已经翻译出了。。。。。。。。[What translations have been published/done in your translation workshop in Germany? ]
When I was a student, I found that Chinese students all knew Goethe, Shakespeare and Heine, while almost no one in the West knew Qu Yuan, Li Bai, Su Dongpo and Cao Xueqin. I was very shocked. Although translation is not regarded as an academic research in the West and is not highly valued, I personally regard the translation of Chinese literary works, especially famous works and classic works, into German as a lifelong career. I also set up a translation workshop in Witten, Germany, to encourage the younger generation of graduates and strive for translation projects for them. Usually, Chinese literary works are translated into German and English, which have already been translated. . . . . . . .
当然，从翻译的本质上来说，这是一项语言服务。没有这种服务，研究就无法实现。多了解中国文化，对德国文化没有坏处。而德国民众通常不懂中文，因此通过翻译获得资讯似乎是唯一方式。不过对于专业从事中国文学创作的人来说，当然建议掌握汉语能力，因为读原著永远比读译著更真实。
Of course, translation is essentially a language service. Without this service, research cannot be realized. Knowing more about Chinese culture will do no harm to German culture. German people usually don't understand Chinese, so getting information through translation seems to be the only way. However, for those who specialize in Chinese literary creation, it is of course recommended to master Chinese ability, because reading the original works is always more authentic than reading the translated works.
10. 作为世界汉学研究会会长，您组织了多场与汉学相关的国际会议，包括一年一度的世界汉学研究大会（WACS），持续向世界展示中华文化的魅力。您既是译者，又是研究者，您如何看待这两个身份之间的转换？您对从事译研结合的学者有何建议吗？
在西方，学者的地位普遍高于译者。不过，就我而言，译者的工作还是很重要的，因为科学有赖于源头的发展（The work of the translator is nevertheless important, since science depends on the development of sources.）。最重要的是，如果没有翻译，大众就无法认识和了解外国语言与文化。因此，我既做翻译，也做学术研究，一方面是有时在翻译的过程中发现某个学术研究的选题或者已有选题再翻译中找到了一个突破点；另一方面，有时做学术研究需要阅读一些中国文学作品，但发现并没有德译本，所以干脆自己动手翻译。
In the West, the status of scholars is generally higher than that of translators. However, as far as I am concerned, the translator's work is still very important, because science depends on the development of the source. Most importantly, without translation, the public cannot know and understand foreign languages and cultures. Therefore, I do both translation and academic research; On the one hand, I sometimes find a breakthrough point in the process of translation when I find a topic of an academic research or in the re-translation of an existing topic; On the other hand, sometimes it is necessary to read some Chinese literary works for academic research, but it is found that there is no German translation, so I simply translate it myself.
翻译批评现在在中国是比较热门的学术研究方向，拿《红楼梦》为例。我个人认为，做相关翻译批评的学者首先自己也应该是作家，有自己的代表作，或者翻译过一定的作品。此外，做翻译批评时最好将对象锁定为译本语言是母语的作品。如果一个人对自己的源语言掌握得很好，就能够分辨出字里行间的引申义和细微的差别，更好地评估选词、文体等是否得当。但可惜的是，中国红学届或者翻译学届几乎没有人具备这样的条件。
Translation criticism is now a popular academic research direction in China. Take a Dream of Red Mansions as an example. Personally, I think that scholars who do relevant translation criticism should first be writers themselves, have their own representative works, or have translated certain works. In addition, when making translation criticism, it is best to target works whose translation language is the mother tongue. If a person has a good grasp of his source language, he can distinguish the extended meaning and subtle differences between the lines, and better evaluate whether the choice of words and styles are appropriate. However, unfortunately, few people in the Chinese Redology or Translation Studies have such conditions.
我每年邀请100多位学术届同仁讲授他们各自领域的知识，主要是觉得做学问贵在终身学习。可以通过课程和会议间隙的讨论拓宽视野，有时不同领域的知识可以提供更广阔的研究视角。
Every year, I invite more than 100 academic colleagues to teach their knowledge in their respective fields, mainly because I think lifelong learning is the most important thing in learning. The horizon can be broadened through discussions between courses and conferences, and sometimes knowledge in different fields can provide a broader research perspective.
另外，我还建议做翻译的同仁一定要去原语/目标语国家生活一段时间。截至目前，我在中国生活了八年，每隔一段时间，新的表达方式都会扑面而来，每天都在学习，自然对我研究和翻译都有帮助。
In addition, I also suggest that colleagues who do translation must live in the source/target language countries for a period of time. Up to now, I have lived in China for eight years. Every once in a while, new expressions come to me and I study every day. Naturally, it is helpful for my research and translation.

=10 国际汉学中心=
您是湖南师范大学“潇湘学者”特聘教授，并担任国际汉学中心主任。请问：该中心主要从事工作？您未来计划开展哪些项目推动中德文化交流？

Sie sind ein angesehener Professor der Hunan Normal University und der Direktor des Zentrums für Internationale Chinawissenschaften. Was ist die Hauptaufgabe des Zentrums? Welche zukünftigen Projekte planen Sie, um den kulturellen Austausch zwischen Deutschland und China zu fördern?

Woesler: Das Zentrum für Internationale Chinawissenschaften ist eine Brücke zwischen der heimischen Guoxue und den ausländischen Chinawissenschaften. In diesem Forum können sich Wissenschaftler aus der ganzen Welt mit ihren unterschiedlichen Perspektiven zum Austausch und zur Zusammenarbeit treffen.

Woesler: The Center for International China Studies is a bridge between domestic Guoxue and foreign China studies. In this forum, scholars from all over the world with their different perspectives can meet for exchange and cooperation.

吴漠汀：国际汉学研究中心是国内国学与对外汉语研究的桥梁。在这个论坛上，来自世界各地的学者带着各自不同的观点，可以聚在一起交流合作。

Aus Hongkong haben wir die US-Amerikanerin Margaret Chu gewinnen können, die nebenberuflich als Senior Fellow Kontakte pflegt und Beiträge evaluiert und verbessert. Sie ist gerade Anfang 2021 als Associate Professorin an die Macao University of Science and Technology berufen worden.

From Hong Kong, we have been able to attract Margaret Chu from the US, who is a part-time Senior Fellow who maintains contacts and evaluates and improves contributions. She has just been appointed as an Associate Professor at Macao University of Science and Technology in early 2021.

我们从香港吸引了来自美国的Margaret Chu，她是兼职高级研究员，负责保持联系，评估和改进贡献。她刚刚在2021年初被聘为澳门科技大学副教授。

Ms. Chu has also brought many colleagues into the network, including from Oxford, California, and Massachusetts.

Frau Chu hat auch viele Kollegen, unter anderem aus Oxford, Kalifornien und Massachusetts, ins Netzwerk geholt.

朱女士还将许多同事带进了网络，包括来自牛津、加州和马萨诸塞州的同事。

Aus Deutschland haben vier Kollegen einen Ruf auf Professuren am Foreign Studies College angenommen, darunter zwei Sinologen, die das Zentrum verstärken: Der Philosoph Ole Döring aus Karlsruhe und der Historiker Cord Eberspächer aus Düsseldorf, der das dortige Konfuzius-Institut als Direktor geleitet hat.

From Germany, four colleagues have accepted appointments to professorships at the Foreign Studies College, including two Sinologists who are strengthening the center: Philosopher Ole Döring from Karlsruhe and historian Cord Eberspächer from Düsseldorf, who was director of the Confucius Institute there.

来自德国的四位同事已经接受了外国语学院教授职位的任命，其中包括两位加强中心的汉学家。哲学家Ole Döring来自卡尔斯鲁厄，历史学家Cord Eberspächer来自杜塞尔多夫，他曾在那里担任孔子学院院长。

Wir alle, zusammen mit Kolleginnen und Kollegen aus Russland, den USA, und verschiedenen Staaten in Europa, arbeiten gemeinsam an einer "Geschichte der Chinawissenschaften", die mit einem Übersichtsband sowie 10 Einzelbänden konzipiert ist. Sie soll zeitgleich auf Englisch, Deutsch und Chinesisch erscheinen.

All of us, together with colleagues from Russia, the USA, and various countries in Europe, are working together on a "History of Chinese Studies", which is conceived with an overview volume as well as 10 individual volumes. It is to be published simultaneously in English, German and Chinese.

我们大家和俄罗斯、美国以及欧洲各国的同仁一起，正在共同编写 "中国研究史"，构思中的 "中国研究史 "有一卷总论，也有十卷单行本。该书将以英文、德文和中文同时出版。

In einem anderen Projekt beschäftigt sich das Zentrum mit der Geschichte der Auseinandersetzung mit den Vier Großen Romanen und insbesondere mit dem Traum der Roten Kammer im Ausland, insbesondere im Westen.

In another project, the Center is looking at the history of engagement with the Four Great Novels and, in particular, the Dream of the Red Chamber abroad, especially in the West.

在另一个项目中，该中心正在研究四大名著，特别是《红楼梦》在国外，尤其是在西方的参与历史。

Im Bereich moderne Literatur schauen wir uns Lu Xun an, unter anderem seine Bekanntschaft mit europäischen Schriftstellern und Reform-Pädagogen. Auch Qian Zhongshu ist aus Sicht der internationalen Chinawissenschaften interessant, seine Texte sind voller Bezüge auf westliche Literatur.

In the area of modern literature, we look at Lu Xun, including his acquaintance with European writers and reform educators. Qian Zhongshu is also interesting from the perspective of international Chinese studies; his texts are full of references to Western literature.

在现代文学中，我们看鲁迅，包括他与欧洲作家和改革教育家的相识。从国际汉学的角度看，钱钟书也很有意思，他的文章中充满了对西方文学的引用。

Das Zentrum unterstützt die Übersetzung chinesischer Bücher ins Englische und Deutsche. So wurden zahlreiche Romane, Erzählungen und Sachbücher übersetzt.

The Center supports the translation of Chinese books into English and German. Thus, numerous novels, short stories and non-fiction books have been translated.

中心支持将中文书籍翻译成英语和德语。因此，翻译了许多小说、短篇小说和非小说类书籍。

=11. 曹雪芹和跨国文化=
从跨国文化的角度看曹雪芹你有合想法？

Woesler: Cao Xueqin and even more his protagonist Jia Baoyu both are early humanists, universalists and world citizens. The Red Chamber Dreams function worldwide. The Dream is a complex showroom of diverse aspects of Chinese cultures and is the embodiment and essence of Chinese cultures, but it has also a global impact, therefore it should be honoured as “World Documentary Heritage”.

吴漠汀：曹雪芹，尤其是他的主人公贾宝玉，都是早期的人文主义者，普世主义者和世界公民。《红楼梦》具有普世价值。《红楼梦》综合展示了中国的多元文化，是中国文化的集中体现和精华，同时在全球范围内产生影响，理应列入世界记忆遗产名录。

Cao Xueqin’s message is not simply the one of “Paradise Lost”, instead he himself made the best out of his life. Although being less wealthy than when his family still enjoyed the favour of the emperor, there was a payroll system and a social net intact in Early Qing China, where he received enough income to be independent from his rich relatives, to be selective on accepting jobs, to live a relaxed life in a small house in the nature, spending time with his family and friends, follow his own interests, like reading, writing and drinking wine, making kites for the children and thinking of the disadvantaged.

曹雪芹所传达的信息并不是简单的“失乐园”，相反，他把自己的生活过得很好。虽然比起他的家族享受皇帝的宠爱，他过得没有那么富裕，但清初中国有一套薪俸制度和一张完整的社会网，他获得了足够的收入，可以独立于富贵亲戚，可以有选择性地接受工作，可以在大自然的小房子里过着悠闲的生活，可以与家人和朋友共度时光，可以追随自己的兴趣，例如读书，写作和饮酒，可以为孩子们做风筝，可以为弱势群体着想。

Cao Xueqin was fully aware of his time and China’s cultural achievements, he was familiar with the different levels of society, he was a detailed observer and skilful narrator. He may have conceptualized the ending of the novel as a discussion about the different personalities of the characters in the novel and therefore displaying his reflection about life and his psychological understanding of the diversity of human nature. He was able to grasp the “spirit of time” (Zeitgeist) and with his autobiographical experience create an eternal coming-of-age novel not just for his family, for the Qing-Chinese, for Chinese people, but for mankind.

曹雪芹对自己所处的时代和中国的文化成就了如指掌，他熟悉社会的不同层面，他是一个细致的观察者和娴熟的叙述者。因此，他在小说中对人的不同个性的理解和对小说中人物性格的多样性进行了概念化的探讨。他能够把握“时代精神”，用他的自传体经历，不仅为他的家庭，为清朝的中国人，为中国人民，而且为人类，创作了一部永恒的成人小说。

This tradition of Coming-of-age novels is also a European one, like enlightenment philosopher Voltaire’s novel Candide or Optimism《老实人》shows at the very same time (1759) in Europe. Also Voltaire’s Candide has to leave the luxurious paradise of his childhood and strives for true love, but his main learning is more pessimistic, since Voltaire wrote the novel in opposition to Leibniz, who optimistically looked to China as “the best of all worlds”. Recent research findings show that China had a much larger influence on European enlightenment philosophers and we can be sure, that also Cao Xueqin was aware of some European literary traditions.

这种成熟的传统小说也是一个欧洲人,像启蒙运动哲学家伏尔泰在欧洲同时间出版的的小说《老实人》(1759年)。伏尔泰笔下的老实人不得不离开童年的奢华天堂，为追求真爱而奋斗，但他的主要学习内容却更为悲观，因为伏尔泰的小说与莱布尼茨截然相反，莱布尼茨乐观地认为中国是“所有世界中最好的”。最近的研究发现，中国对欧洲启蒙运动哲学家的影响要大得多，我们可以肯定，曹雪芹对欧洲的一些文学传统也有所了解。

=12. 《红楼梦》跟今天国内外的读者有什么关系？=

Woesler: The novel is an embodiment of “Zeitgeist”.

吴漠汀：小说作为 "时代精神 "的体现。

According to Georg Lukács’ Theory of the Novel, while the Epos (like Homer’s Ilias, which like the Dream reasons the stories in the divine realm) displayed a holistic world experience, a complete, self-contained culture, the novel displays, that the modern world has become infinitely large and has lost its homely quality.

根据格奥尔格-卢卡奇的小说理论，虽然Epos（像荷马的伊利亚斯，它像梦理由神界的故事）展示了一个整体的世界经验，一个完整的，自足的文化，小说展示，现代世界已经变得无限大，已经失去了它的家的品质。

The novel as a genre is no longer documenting just one culture, but represents, with the words of Walter Benjamin, the Organon of History. So the understanding of the novel changed with Lukacs to historical-philosophically. A novel is understood as typical for its historical era, the novel embodies the spirit of the epoch (Zeitgeist).

小说作为一种文体，不再只是记录一种文化，而是用瓦尔特-本雅明的话说，代表了历史的有机体。所以，对小说的理解随着卢卡奇的改变，变成了历史哲学的理解。小说被理解为其历史时代的典型，小说体现了时代精神（Zeitgeist）。

The Red Chamber Dreams are written in front of the background of the Manchu minority having taken over the power in formerly Han-shaped Ming-China (which was a multi-ethnic and crosscultural society) and families suffering the changing favor of changing emperors, with the Cao family being fostered by Kangxi and being persecuted by Yongzheng.

《红楼梦》写的是满族少数民族在原汉字形的明中国（这是一个多民族、跨文化的社会）掌握了政权，家庭遭受换代皇帝的宠爱，曹家被康熙扶植，被雍正迫害的背景前。

While the author in his time could not criticize the system and power of emperors, in the novel he came to terms with this life by seeking the guilt for the persecution in the growing decadence of the family (engaging in Daoism, leisure, poetry-writing, arts and music instead of learning for being able to earn a living) and in himself not fulfilling the expectations as the family heir. This description of decadence of a declining family reminds us of the novels of Tschechov (and e.g. in the Buddenbrooks by Mann, including the turn to arts and music).

虽然作者在他的时代无法批判帝制和皇权，但在小说中，他为家族的日益衰败（参加道教、娱乐、诗歌、艺术和音乐活动，而不是为了谋生而学习）和自己作为家族继承人没有实现家族期望感到自责，通过这样做，他也对这种生活做妥协。这种对没落家族颓废状况的描写，让我们想起了契诃夫的小说（如曼恩的《布登布鲁克》，包括对艺术和音乐的转向）

Moreover, with the detailed description of life on all social levels in early Qing Dynasty, the Dream appears as a documentary historical novel very much like Günter Grass’ The Tin Drum 1959.

此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的《铁皮鼓1959》非常相似，《铁皮鼓1959》是一部纪实历史小说。

=13 中德文化交流=
我们非常感佩您对中华文化的热爱、对推动中德文化交流做出的突出贡献！再次感谢您接受我的访问！祝您多结学术硕果！

Wir bewundern Ihre Liebe zur chinesischen Kultur und Ihren herausragenden Beitrag zur Förderung des kulturellen Austauschs zwischen Deutschland und China! Nochmals vielen Dank für dieses Interview! Ich wünsche Ihnen viele akademische Erfolge!

Woesler: Vielen Dank! Tatsächlich sehe ich es als eine der wichtigsten Aufgaben unserer Zeit, Menschen zusammenzubringen. Viele Nationen sind stolz auf ihre Kultur. Inzwischen wissen wir, dass keine Kultur besser oder schlechter ist als eine andere. Aber es ist faszinierend, und es fördert unsere Entwicklung als Individuen und als Menschheit insgesamt, von den verschiedenen Kulturen zu wissen. Wenn sich wie ich als Deutscher in die chinesische Kultur, auf der ganzen Welt Chinesen in andere Kulturen und Angehörige anderer Kulturen in die chinesische verlieben, so führt dies zu einer Bereicherung und einem Erblühen menschlicher Kultur insgesamt. So können die Menschen das Beste, das in ihnen steckt verwirklichen: Respekt und Toleranz.

Woesler: Thank you very much! Indeed, I see it as one of the most important tasks of our time to bring people together. Many nations are proud of their culture. By now we know that no culture is better or worse than another. But it is fascinating, and it promotes our development as individuals and as humanity as a whole, to know about the different cultures. If, like me as a German, Chinese people fall in love with Chinese culture, and all over the world Chinese people fall in love with other cultures, and members of other cultures fall in love with Chinese culture, this leads to an enrichment and blossoming of human culture as a whole. In this way, people can realize the best that is within them: Respect and tolerance.

吴漠汀：非常感谢你! 的确，我认为这是我们这个时代最重要的任务之一，就是把人们团结起来。许多国家都以自己的文化为荣。现在我们知道，没有任何一种文化比另一种文化更好或更差。但它是迷人的，它能促进我们作为个人和整个人类的发展，了解不同的文化。当像我这个德国人一样，中国人爱上了中国文化，全世界的中国人爱上了其他文化，其他文化的成员爱上了中国文化，这就导致了整个人类文化的丰富和绽放。这样，人们才能实现自己内心的最佳状态。尊重和宽容。

=Notes about the intercultural approach=
==《红楼梦》与其他世界文学作品的相似性——推荐《红楼梦》列入世界记忆遗产名录 Commonness between the Red Chamber Dreams and other World Literature Novels – Proposing the Red Chamber Dreams to the World Documentary Heritage List==

吴漠汀，湖南师范大学 Martin Woesler, Hunan Normal University

==Abstract==
In every culture, readers associate the literature they know with new literature they read. So literature is always cumulative, it grows out of existing literature and can refer back to it. When Western readers read the Red Chamber Dreams, they foremost associate novels and other pieces of literature of their own cultural tradition with the Dreams. This has also influenced the first full translation into German.
Cao Xueqin and even more his protagonist Jia Baoyu both are early humanists, universalists and world citizens. The Red Chamber Dreams function worldwide. The Dream is a complex showroom of diverse aspects of Chinese cultures and is the embodiment and essence of Chinese cultures, but it has also a global impact, therefore it should be honoured as “World Documentary Heritage”.

==Key words==
Western culture, reception tradition, German translation, Embodiment of Chinese cultures, global compatibility, World Documentary Heritage

==摘要==
在每一种文化中，读者都会把他们读到的新文学与已知文学联系起来，所以文学总是积累的，它从现有的文学中生长出来，并以已有文学为参考。西方读者在阅读《红楼梦》时，首先会把《红楼梦》与自身文化传统中的小说和其他文学作品联系起来，这也影响了首次德语全译本。
曹雪芹，尤其是他的主人公贾宝玉，都是早期的人文主义者，普世主义者和世界公民。《红楼梦》具有普世价值。《红楼梦》综合展示了中国的多元文化，是中国文化的集中体现和精华，同时在全球范围内产生影响，理应列入世界记忆遗产名录。

==关键词==

西方文化，传统保护，德国翻译，中国文化具像化表现，全球兼容，世界遗产文献 --Weiyafei (talk) 07:10, 28 December 2020 (UTC)Wei yafei

==1. Chinese Ethics==

To help the poor and disadvantaged belongs to the traditional core values of Chinese culture.

When we sit in the Beijing Subway today, the loudspeaker announcement reminds us, that it is Chinese traditional ethics to give seats to the disadvantaged (老弱病残孕让座是中国传统道德). We know of Cao Xueqin, that he supported the poor and disadvantaged, and that he made kites for children.

However, when we look closer at these “Chinese Ethics”, we discover, that they are claimed also in Indian Buddhism “karuna” and in the Christian tradition of “caritas” and in almost every civilization. Therefore, we might call these values “human ethics”.

中国伦理“扶贫济困”是中国文化的传统核心价值观。当我们今天坐在北京地铁时，扬声器的公告提醒我们，让弱势群体有座位是中国传统道德。我们知道曹雪芹，他支持穷人和处境不利的人，他为孩子们制作风筝。但是，当我们仔细观察这些“中国伦理学”时，我们发现，印度佛教“ karuna”，基督教的“明爱”传统以及几乎所有文明中也都声称拥有它们。因此，我们可以将这些价值观称为“人类道德”。--Wen Xiaoyi (talk) 15:24, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

==2. Compatibility Why do the Red Chamber Dreams function worldwide and have achieved world literature status even in their translations?==

2. 兼容性为什么《红楼梦》在世界范围内广泛流传，甚至在翻译领域中也取得了世界文学的地位？

First of all, the Red Chamber Dreams are, like novels worldwide, a piece of entertainment literature. In comparison to the drama, in which every element is compulsory and plays its part in the overall structure, in the novel the line of action itself is simpler and not so important, most of the scenes or episodes are loosely put together and fit in the broader theme of the novel.

首先，《红楼梦》和世界小说一样，是一部娱乐文学。与戏剧中的每一个元素都是强制性的，在整体结构中起作用的戏剧相比，小说的行动路线本身更简单，也不那么重要，大部分场景或情节都松散地组合在一起，这和小说更广泛的主题相吻合。

However, the lose arrangement of episodes of the Dreams comes from the tradition of almost unconnected episodes like in the Shuihuzhuan and is a step towards the greater coherence of the episodes, the aligning into a story line and the greater concentration on fewer protagonists. Therefore, the Dreams show clearly a step towards the Western tradition of novels, maybe because of growing Western influence in Qing dynasty.

然而，《红楼梦》章回结构不连续来自于《水浒传》中几乎没有联系的章回的传统，这是朝着章回更连贯、与故事线一致以及更集中于较少主角的方向迈出的一步。因此，《红楼梦》明显向西方小说传统迈进了一步，可能是因为西方对清代的影响越来越大。

==3. Impact of translator’s native culture on the translation process==

3.译者的本土文化对翻译过程的影响

There are intercultural parallels between the Red Chamber Dreams and Western works of literature.

《红楼梦》和西方文学作品之间有跨国文化的相似之处。

These parallels are fundamental for the translation and were explicitly and implicitly fundamental for the German translator Martin Woesler during his translation and editorial work on the first full German translation. In the following, I will mention some of the Western novels and pieces of literature, which the Western reader of the Dreams will immediately think of.

这些相似之处是翻译的根本，也是德文译者马丁-沃斯勒在翻译和编辑第一部德文全译本时明确和隐含的根本。下面，我将提到一些西方的小说和文学作品，西方的读者读到梦会立即想到这些作品。

==4. The novel as embodiment of “Zeitgeist”==

4. 小说作为 "时代精神 "的体现。

According to Georg Lukács’ Theory of the Novel, while the Epos (like Homer’s Ilias, which like the Dream reasons the stories in the divine realm) displayed a holistic world experience, a complete, self-contained culture, the novel displays, that the modern world has become infinitely large and has lost its homely quality.

根据格奥尔格-卢卡奇的小说理论，虽然Epos（像荷马的伊利亚斯，它像梦理由神界的故事）展示了一个整体的世界经验，一个完整的，自足的文化，小说展示，现代世界已经变得无限大，已经失去了它的家的品质。

The novel as a genre is no longer documenting just one culture, but represents, with the words of Walter Benjamin, the Organon of History. So the understanding of the novel changed with Lukacs to historical-philosophically. A novel is understood as typical for its historical era, the novel embodies the spirit of the epoch (Zeitgeist).

小说作为一种文体，不再只是记录一种文化，而是用瓦尔特-本雅明的话说，代表了历史的有机体。所以，对小说的理解随着卢卡奇的改变，变成了历史哲学的理解。小说被理解为其历史时代的典型，小说体现了时代精神（Zeitgeist）。

The Red Chamber Dreams are written in front of the background of the Manchu minority having taken over the power in formerly Han-shaped Ming-China (which was a multi-ethnic and crosscultural society) and families suffering the changing favor of changing emperors, with the Cao family being fostered by Kangxi and being persecuted by Yongzheng.

《红楼梦》写的是满族少数民族在原汉字形的明中国（这是一个多民族、跨文化的社会）掌握了政权，家庭遭受换代皇帝的宠爱，曹家被康熙扶植，被雍正迫害的背景前。

While the author in his time could not criticize the system and power of emperors, in the novel he came to terms with this life by seeking the guilt for the persecution in the growing decadence of the family (engaging in Daoism, leisure, poetry-writing, arts and music instead of learning for being able to earn a living) and in himself not fulfilling the expectations as the family heir. This description of decadence of a declining family reminds us of the novels of Tschechov (and e.g. in the Buddenbrooks by Mann, including the turn to arts and music).

虽然作者在他的时代无法批判帝制和皇权，但在小说中，他为家族的日益衰败（参加道教、娱乐、诗歌、艺术和音乐活动，而不是为了谋生而学习）和自己作为家族继承人没有实现家族期望感到自责，通过这样做，他也对这种生活做妥协。这种对没落家族颓废状况的描写，让我们想起了契诃夫的小说（如曼恩的《布登布鲁克》，包括对艺术和音乐的转向）

Moreover, with the detailed description of life on all social levels in early Qing Dynasty, the Dream appears as a documentary historical novel very much like Günter Grass’ The Tin Drum 1959.

此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的《铁皮鼓1959》非常相似，《铁皮鼓1959》是一部纪实历史小说。

==5. Coming-of-age and Alienation==

5. 成熟和异化

Abandoning the paradise-like garden in the Red Chamber Dreams is a symbol for leaving the protected childhood and arriving in the complex world of adults. With George Lukács theory of the novel, the protagonist starts to problematize the sense of his life, in the novel, the protagonist’s self permanently struggles with his environment.

抛弃《红楼梦》中天堂般的花园，是离开受保护的童年，进入复杂的成人世界的象征。随着乔治·卢卡奇的小说理论，主人公开始对他的生活感觉产生疑问，在小说中，主人公的自我一直与他的环境作斗争。

However, Cao Xueqin’s message is not simply the one of “Paradise Lost”, instead he himself made the best out of his life. Although being less wealthy than when his family still enjoyed the favour of the emperor, there was a payroll system and a social net intact in Early Qing China, where he received enough income to be independent from his rich relatives, to be selective on accepting jobs, to live a relaxed life in a small house in the nature, spending time with his family and friends, follow his own interests, like reading, writing and drinking wine, making kites for the children and thinking of the disadvantaged.

然而，曹雪芹所传达的信息并不是简单的“失乐园”，相反，他把自己的生活过得很好。虽然比起他的家族享受皇帝的宠爱，他过得没有那么富裕，但清初中国有一套薪俸制度和一张完整的社会网，他获得了足够的收入，可以独立于富贵亲戚，可以有选择性地接受工作，可以在大自然的小房子里过着悠闲的生活，可以与家人和朋友共度时光，可以追随自己的兴趣，例如读书，写作和饮酒，可以为孩子们做风筝，可以为弱势群体着想。

Cao Xueqin was fully aware of his time and China’s cultural achievements, he was familiar with the different levels of society, he was a detailed observer and skilful narrator. He may have conceptualized the ending of the novel as a discussion about the different personalities of the characters in the novel and therefore displaying his reflection about life and his psychological understanding of the diversity of human nature. He was able to grasp the “spirit of time” (Zeitgeist) and with his autobiographical experience create an eternal coming-of-age novel not just for his family, for the Qing-Chinese, for Chinese people, but for mankind.

曹雪芹对自己所处的时代和中国的文化成就了如指掌，他熟悉社会的不同层面，他是一个细致的观察者和娴熟的叙述者。因此，他在小说中对人的不同个性的理解和对小说中人物性格的多样性进行了概念化的探讨。他能够把握“时代精神”，用他的自传体经历，不仅为他的家庭，为清朝的中国人，为中国人民，而且为人类，创作了一部永恒的成人小说。

This tradition of Coming-of-age novels is also a European one, like enlightenment philosopher Voltaire’s novel Candide or Optimism《老实人》shows at the very same time (1759) in Europe. Also Voltaire’s Candide has to leave the luxurious paradise of his childhood and strives for true love, but his main learning is more pessimistic, since Voltaire wrote the novel in opposition to Leibniz, who optimistically looked to China as “the best of all worlds”. Recent research findings show that China had a much larger influence on European enlightenment philosophers and we can be sure, that also Cao Xueqin was aware of some European literary traditions.

这种成熟的传统小说也是一个欧洲人,像启蒙运动哲学家伏尔泰在欧洲同时间出版的的小说《老实人》(1759年)。伏尔泰笔下的老实人不得不离开童年的奢华天堂，为追求真爱而奋斗，但他的主要学习内容却更为悲观，因为伏尔泰的小说与莱布尼茨截然相反，莱布尼茨乐观地认为中国是“所有世界中最好的”。最近的研究发现，中国对欧洲启蒙运动哲学家的影响要大得多，我们可以肯定，曹雪芹对欧洲的一些文学传统也有所了解。

Also the German readership is familiar with the chronological following of the life of the protagonist and his development, the fate of a family over generations, the German readership knows this type of novel as the “Education novel” or “Coming-of-age-novel”. In Germany, the genre of the coming-of-age novel has a long tradition and it is shaped more by single characters, who appear as teachers (Goethe: Wilhelm Meister’s Apprenticeship威廉·麦斯特的学徒岁月 1795-96, Novalis 诺瓦利斯: Heinrich von Ofterdingen 《海因利·封·歐福特丁根》1802).

德国读者对主人公的生平及其发展、家族世代的命运都很熟悉，德国读者把这种类型的小说称为“教育小说”或“成长小说”。在德国,关于成长小说的体裁有着悠久的传统,它的形状更由单个字符,它更多的是被塑造为教师的单个人物(歌德：'Wilhelm Meister’s Apprenticeship威廉·麦斯特的学徒岁月 1795-96, Novalis 诺瓦利斯: Heinrich von Ofterdingen《海因利·封·歐福特丁根》1802)。

Wilhelm Meister, parallely to Jia Baoyu, is struggling with the traditional education, in Wilhelm Meister this is represented with the classics revived in Shakespeare’s dramas. Tradition can give orientation, but the personality of the protagonist needs to develop through emancipation is a wisdom, we can learn from all mentioned novels including the Dreams.

==6. Pornography and True Love, female rivals==

Sexuality is a basic human need and has developed into different shapes in all cultures. The German audience is familiar with erotic topics from the Middle Ages, in which sexuality was stylized. In the “Schwänke” of the 15th century (Wittenwielers Ring), erotic scenes are described sexually explicit.

与贾宝玉一样，威廉·迈斯特也在与传统教育作斗争，在《威廉·迈斯特》中，莎士比亚戏剧中复兴的经典作品代表了这一点。传统可以给予导向，但主人公的个性需要通过解放来发展是一种智慧，我们可以从包括《梦》在内的所有小说中学习。 “6。色情与真爱，女性对手" 性是人类的一种基本需求，在各种文化中形成了不同的形态。德国观众熟悉中世纪的情色话题，在这些话题中，性是程式化的。在15世纪的“Schwanke”(Wittenwielers Ring)中，情色场景被描述为露骨的性。

In the barock literature of the 17th century even the physical act is described extensively.

在17世纪的Barock文学中，甚至对物理行为也进行了广泛的描述。

According to „cumulativity“, every human being is a product of history and literature is based on previous literature, therefore the author of this pager thinks that this background has to be taken into account while translating.

根据“累积性”，每个人都是历史的产物，而文学是基于先前的文献，因此，该传呼机的作者认为翻译时必须考虑这一背景。

The best study on qing passion in the Dreams is the one by Anthony Yu, who understood it as desire and as the central motif of the Dreams. „The centrality of qing in shaping virtually every aspect of The Story of the Stone’s structure and meaning cannot be denied [...].“ (Anthony Yu 2001, 54).

关于梦中关于“情”最好的研究是安东尼·于（Anthony Yu）的研究，他将其理解为欲望和梦的中心主题。 “清香在塑造《石头的故事》的结构和意义的几乎每个方面的中心作用都不能否认。”（Anthony Yu 2001，54）。

In the framework story of the Dreams, the narrator consciously takes a stand against low-action and stereotypical pornographic literature as well as against the widespread romance novels (with the classic roles of the beautiful, talented woman and the poor scholar who finally achieves a respected position and prosperity by passing a civil service exam).

在《梦》的框架故事中，叙述者有意识地反对低俗的动作和陈规定型的色情文学，反对流传甚广的浪漫小说（以美丽的才女和通过公务员制度最终获得受人尊敬的地位的穷困书生为经典角色）。

In chapter 1 he says: ”of the true feelings of young people [...] nobody has reported about so far.”

在第一章中，他说：“关于年轻人的真实感受，[……]到目前为止还没有人报道过。”

Erotic scenes are described in a decent and associative way (“Game of clouds and rain”), while displaying another quality in its openness e.g. towards bisexuality.

情色场景被描述成一个体面和联想的方式（“云和雨的游戏”），同时显示了另一个开放性的性质，例如对双性恋。

The 'Red Chamber Dream' narrates the story of unfortunate lovers. Unfortunate lovers also in the West have a literary tradition, they constitute an archetype, such as Hero and Leander, Pyramus and Thisbe, Tristan and Isolde, Flore and Blanscheflur as well as Troilus and Cressida, the latter being considered the model for Arthur Brookes, who wrote Romeo and Juliet in 1562 and thus directly influenced Shakespeare.

《红楼梦》讲述了一对不幸的恋人的故事。不幸的恋人也有西方文学的传统,他们构成一个原型,如英雄和利安得、皮拉摩斯和提斯柏,特里斯坦与伊索尔德,凝花和Blanscheflur特洛伊罗斯和克雷西达,后者被认为是阿瑟·布鲁克斯的模型,他在1562年写了《罗密欧与朱丽叶》,从而直接影响了莎士比亚。玛丽安·加利克认为《红楼梦》和《浮士德》都是吸引我们的永恒女性的中心主题，顾城则称其为“永恒的处女”。

While Marián Galik saw as the central topic of both, the Dream and Faust, the eternal feminine, which draws us on high, Gu Cheng called it the “eternal virgine”.

玛丽安·加利克（Mariann Galik）认为《梦》和《浮士德》都是吸引我们的永恒女性的中心主题，顾城则称其为“永恒的处女”。

In Goethe’s coming-of-age novel Wilhelm Meisters Wanderjahre, we find a similar motif of female rivals, in the Keller 凯勒 The Green Henry 《绿衣亨利》1855, the hero turns away from an emphatically sexually designed figure and turns to the 'real' woman. In Jane Austen’s Pride and Prejudice 1813 Elizabeth and Lin Daiyu are similar, e.g. they both strive for real love (Zhuang 2011).

在歌德的成长小说Wilhelm Meisters Wanderjahre中，我们发现了类似的女性竞争主题，在凯勒The Green Henry（《绿衣亨利》1855）中，男主人公父亲早亡，母亲养育其成人。在简-奥斯汀的Pride and Prejudice（《傲慢与偏见》1813）中，伊丽莎白和林黛玉是相似的，比如她们都追求真爱（庄2011）。

==7. Feudal society and slavery==

7. 封建社会和奴隶

A widespread interpretation is that Jia Baoyu’s equal treatment of family members and slaves would be a manifesto to free the slaves. I also do not share this interpretation, since Aristotle, when he demanded democracy, would exclude slaves from the right to vote. So we cannot use modern concepts to judge on the past. In my understanding, Jia Baoyu was not fighting inequality, but looked at the people as humans and individuals.

人们普遍认为贾宝玉对待家庭成员和奴隶的平等对待是解放奴隶的宣言。我不同意这种解释，因为亚里士多德吁民主时，会将奴隶从投票权中剔除。所以我们不能用现代观点评判古人。我认为，贾宝玉并不是在为不平等而做斗争，而是将人区分为人或是个体。

Also the understanding of the servants as slaves does not match the description in the Dream, since some servants had servants themselves, the family took care after they left the Jia family to find a match for them and Jia Zheng refers to his daughter Yingchun as „yatou 丫头“, so it is inappropriate to translate this expression with slave. Therefore, the translator preferred “servant” over “slave” in the translation.

而且把仆人理解为奴隶与《红楼梦》中的描写不符，因为有些仆人自己还有仆人，贾府会在她们离府的时候为她们寻一门亲事，作为贾府对她们的照料；贾政也把自己的女儿迎春喊作 “丫头”，所以把这些翻译成奴隶是不合适的。因此英文翻译中采用“servant”会比“slave”更为合适。

Mo Yan in his speech at the Frankfurt Bookfair in 2009, when China was the guest of honor, draws the (similarly) parallel between the Dream and Goethe’s Sorrows of the Young Werther, that both expressed the wish to abandon feudal society. My own impression is that both do not express this wish, but that this is a later concept and interpretation and we should not apply this to judge the past.

2009年，莫言代表中国作为主宾国参加法兰克福书展时，在演讲中把《红楼梦》和歌德的《少年维特之哀》画上了约等号，表达了抛弃封建社会的愿望。我自己的感觉是，两者都没有表达这个愿望，但这是后来的概念和解释，我们不应该以此来判断过去。

==8. Tragedy of all tragedies==

8.最悲剧的悲剧

Aristotle explained in On the Tragedy (Poetics VI), that tragedies move people more than comedies because they “imitate [mimēsis] an action that is serious, complete, and of a certain magnitude” (Aristotle 1971, 51), This high esteem of the tragedy in Europe is partly ascribed to the loss of Aristotle’s work On the Comedy.

亚里士多德在《悲剧论》（诗学VI）中解释道，悲剧之所以比戏剧更加动人，是因为它们“模仿（mimēsis）一种严肃、完整且具有一定规模的行动”（Aristotle 1971，51）。悲剧在欧洲拥有崇高地位部分归因于亚里士多德的作品《论喜剧》的失传。

While Europe has the Hamlet as its tragedy of all tragedies, the lack of tragic literature in Chinese literary tradition has long been lamented. Wang Guowei sees the Dream as "tragedy of all tragedies". To Wang Guowei the suffering of Faust and Jia Baoyu is central in the novels. However, many scholars contest that Faustianism is central for Chinese culture.

欧洲悲剧中以《哈姆雷特》为悲剧，而中国文学传统中悲剧文学的缺失，长期以来被人们所惋惜。王国维认为《梦》是“所有悲剧中的悲剧”。对王国维来说，浮士德和贾宝玉的苦难是小说的中心。然而，许多学者认为浮士德主义是中国文化的核心。

In 18th century Europe, we saw a new development in the genre of the drama, to establish a “bourgeois tragedy”.

在18世纪的欧洲，我们看到了戏剧体裁的新发展，确立了“资产阶级悲剧”。

It developed as an emancipatory movement in the 18th century in London, Paris and Germany, and demonstrated that tragedy was not reserved to rulers, but was also imagineable for lower noblemen and ordinary citizens. The Dream at the same time as the bourgeois tragedy in Europe shows a tragic story of a mid-level noble family which loses its titles and privileges.

它作为一场解放运动在18世纪的伦敦、巴黎和德国发展起来，并证明了悲剧并非只发生在统治者身上，也可能发生在下层贵族和普通公民身上。《梦》与欧洲资产阶级悲剧同时上演，讲述的是一个中层贵族家庭失去头衔和特权的悲剧故事。

==9. “Non-Binary” Novels==

9. “非二元”小说

One of the things attracting Western readers is the adorable but mysterious protagonist Jia Baoyu. With his open bisexual orientation and his interest in his mates regardless of their social status, he appears “modern” or at least displaced in time. His struggle with traditional learning makes him appear sympathetic, his long states of rapture out of the world give him both the aura of a timeless character and of mystery.

一个吸引西方读者的东西是可爱而神秘的主人公贾宝玉。由于他开放的双性恋倾向和他对伴侣的兴趣，不管他们的社会地位如何，他显得“现代”或至少在时间上流离失所。他与传统学习的斗争使他显得富有同情心，他从世界上长期的狂喜给了他永恒的性格和神秘的气息。

With the bisexual orientation of the Dreams’ protagonist, the novel appears non-binary. According to German sinologist Karl-Heinz Pohl (2018), binaries are just superficial, ultimately decisive is the Heart Sutra. Today, the novel is listed among the genre of non-binary literature (see e.g. the bibliographical list on https://www.goodreads.com/list/tag/non-binary), in which contrasts are dissolved deconstructivistically.

随着梦中主人公的双性取向，小说呈现出非二元性。德国汉学家卜松山(2018)认为，二进制只是表面现象，最终起决定性作用的是“心经”。今天，这部小说被列为非二元文学的一个流派（参见https://www.goodreads.com/list/tag/non-binary)，其中的反差被解构主义地化解了。

==10. Foreign Cultures in the Red Chamber Dreams==

10.红楼梦中的异邦文化

Foreign Cultures frequently appear in the Dreams in all kinds of varieties, like exoticism with the many objects in the household and presented to the household as novelties, especially the blond girl of the same age as Baoyu referred to in person (combining different origins and cultures, including European, Japanese, Chinese) or several times on paintings, one time shown with wings as an angel.

红楼梦中经常出现各种各样的异邦文化元素，例如许多贾府物品带有异国情调，并是以新奇的形式呈现给贾府的，尤其是其中提到的与宝玉同龄的金发女孩（结合了不同的来历和文化，包括欧洲，日本，中国），金发女孩也多次在绘画中出现，有一次是以带翅膀的天使的形象出现。

The playful combination of different traditions we can see also when a religious dress is described, which carries characteristics of different religions. Similarly, the Daoist monk and the Confucian priest appear together. Cao Xueqin wanted to show the richness and diversity, also with the many topics and societal levels of the novel. Even a variety of Christian motifs can be found, like when Jia Baoyu is not recognized by his father in chapter 120 and when he disappears, all parallel to Jesus Christ.

宗教服饰带有不同宗教的特点，在描述一种宗教服饰时，我们也能体味不同宗教传统的玩味结合。同样，道士和儒士也可一起出现。曹雪芹想表现出小说的丰富性和多样性，同时也要展现出小说的众多主题和社会层次。在书中甚至可以找到各种基督教的主题，比如第120章贾宝玉不被父亲认可，以及贾宝玉消失的时候，这些都与耶稣基督平行。

The variety of cultures is paralleled with the variety of elements of different dynasties, which makes it timeless and therefore even more a masterpiece of Chinese art and a masterpiece of human art. Therefore I would like to nominate the Red Chamber Dreams as “World Documentary Heritage”.

文化的多样性与不同朝代的元素多样性相辅相成，这种多样性便其变得永恒，甚至因此而成为中国艺术杰作和人类艺术杰作。因此，我想提名《红楼梦》为“世界纪录片遗产”。

==References 参考文献==

*Anthony, C. Yu. (2001). Rereading the Stone: Desire and the Making of Fiction in Dream of the Red Chamber. Princeton University Press.
*Aristotle. (1971). Poetics. Trans. S. H. Butcher. Ed. Hazard Adams. Critical Theory since Plato. ew York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 48-66.
*Woesler, Martin, ed., Cao Xueqin, Gao E et al. (2016). Der Traum der Roten Kammer oder Die Geschichte vom Stein [Red Chamber Dreams or The Story of the Stone], Peking: Foreign Languages Press, ISBN 9787119094120, 4813 pages, 6 vols., hardcover, transl. by Rainer Schwarz and Martin Woesler; Chinese-German bilingual edition
*Woesler, Martin. (2011). “Being Explicit About the Implicit – John Minford’s Translation of the last Forty Chapters of The Story of the Stone with a Field Study on two Sexually Arousing Scenes”. Hong lou meng xue kan 6: 274-289
*Woesler, Martin. (2010). “ ’To Amuse the Beaux and Belles’ The Early Western Reception of the Hongloumeng”. Journal of Sino-Western Communications 2 (2010.12) 2:81-107
*Zhuang, Xiuhua. (2011). Self, Ideal and Salvation: A Comparative Study of Jane Austen’s Elizabeth and Cao Xueqin’s Lin Daiyu. Journal of Language Teaching and Research, Vol. 2, No. 2, pp. 420-423, March 2011. Fulltext: http://www.academypublication.com/issues/past/jltr/vol02/02/19.pdf.

2021 Interview with Duan Yuanyuan

2021-03-04T13:40:09Z

Bebery: /* 8 摆渡人 */

'''访谈提纲 Interview with Martin Woesler by Duan Yuanyuan'''

=1 让·莫内讲席教授=
吴教授您好，非常感谢您拨冗接受我的访谈！首先恭喜您获得“让·莫内讲席教授”荣誉称号，此地位是欧盟对从事欧洲一体化教学与研究学者的最高学术承认！您真可谓是一位欧盟的学术大使！据悉，该项目申请难度颇大，中国今年只有湖南师范大学、四川大学和中国政法大学三所大学获得资助。您可否借此次获奖的机缘，说明你眼中中欧的学术交流呢？
不客气！的确，我把自己看作是中欧之间的“文化大使”，把这次获得“让·莫内讲席教授”称号看作是在华工作、学习、生活近三十年的一个阶段性总结。许多西方人认为在华生活是一个极大的挑战，对此我并不否认，但是挑战之余，我还从中看到了变革[What kind of transformation are we talking about here? ]的必要性，而且变革只有通过接触和交流才能实现。中国应该有更多的欧洲学者，中国也应该成为德国每一所大学亟需讨论的议题。
You're welcome! Indeed, I regard myself as a "cultural ambassador" between China and Europe, and I regard winning the title of "Professor Jean Monnet Lecture" as a phased summary of nearly 30 years of work, study and life in China. Many Westerners think that living in China is a great challenge, which I don't deny, but besides the challenge, I also see the necessity of change, and change can only be realized through contact and communication. There should be more European scholars in China, and China should also become an urgent topic for every German university to discuss.
欧盟委员会2020年在全球范围内授予了70个让·莫内教席，且每所大学最多可获一个名额。中国境内大学上次获得还是在2016年。“让·莫内讲席教授”传统上主要关注欧盟相关研究。现在欧盟委员会把这个奖项授予在中国任教的德国汉学家，这说明欧盟委员会已经认识到批判性地对比其它国家和欧盟发展模式的重要性。
In 2020, the European Commission awarded 70 Jean Monnet chairs worldwide, and each university can get up to one place. The last time universities in China won it was in 2016. Traditionally, "Professor Jean Monnet" mainly focuses on EU-related research. Now the European Commission has awarded this award to German sinologists who teach in China, which shows that the European Commission has realized the importance of critically comparing the development models of other countries with those of the European Union.
我不想把欧盟在中国的表现作为中国的反面典型，而是用批判性的眼光看待。中国学生正是通过批判性思维树立价值观。我曾做过调查，结果显示，很多中国学生认为欧盟的政治一体化还没有成功，英国脱欧反映了欧盟的软弱，但我想传达的知识是，欧盟已经在运作了，只是方式不同而已：即追求的不是快速而精干的决策过程，而是等待、讨论、参与和妥协。
I don't want to take the EU's performance in China as a negative example of China, but look at it critically. It is through critical thinking that Chinese students establish values. I have done a survey, and the results show that many Chinese students think that the political integration of the EU has not been successful, and Brexit reflects the weakness of the EU, but the knowledge I want to convey is that the EU is already in operation, only in different ways: it is not a fast and lean decision-making process, but waiting, discussing, participating and compromising.
同时，英国脱欧正表明欧盟每个成员都有随时离开的自由，这被视为一种成就。所以欧洲未必比中国差，只是不同而已。而当中国学生乐于接受不同的时候，他们的个性就会得到发展，成熟起来，适合国际就业市场。因此，我很鼓励学生去欧洲交换学习一两个学期。
At the same time, Brexit shows that every EU member has the freedom to leave at any time, which is regarded as an achievement. Therefore, Europe is not necessarily worse than China, it is just different. When Chinese students are willing to accept differences, their personalities will develop and mature, which is suitable for the international job market. Therefore, I encourage students to go to Europe for exchange study for one or two semesters.
申请“让·莫内讲席”项目时，我就在材料中表明该项目的落脚点在于中国和欧洲的比较，课题还囊括不同的教育体系、社会各领域的数字化以及对数据隐私的保护。通过该项目，我会推荐几名德国同事来中国短期或者长期工作，也会推荐中国同事去欧洲短期访学。并针对该项目，设置课程专题对比中欧近来的对外政策，以期激励中国塑造更加完整的海外形象。
When applying for the "Jean Monnet Lecture" project, I indicated in the materials that the foothold of the project lies in the comparison between China and Europe, and the topic also includes different education systems, digitalization in various fields of society and protection of data privacy. Through this project, I will recommend several German colleagues to work in China for a short or long time, and I will also recommend Chinese colleagues to visit Europe for a short time. In view of this project, a course topic is set up to compare the recent foreign policies of China and Europe, in order to encourage China to shape a more complete overseas image.

=2 《红楼梦》首次全译本=
2.您的代表作是《红楼梦》德语全译本，您是如何走上汉学之路的呢？可否谈谈与史华慈合译《红楼梦》的初衷？How did you begin to learn Chinese and how to stick to the path of sinology for so many years? Why did you choose to translate 红楼梦？
《红楼梦》的意义大于个人，是一件永恒的艺术品，应该提升到“世界遗产”的地位。目前，欧洲只有半数国家出版《红楼梦》译本。1989年我刚上大学的时候，德文版《红楼梦》也只有弗兰茨-库恩的节译本，共40章，只有原文体量的三分之一。与库恩的其他中国优秀小说译本在语言上几乎没有差别，带有浓厚的德国地方色彩。我也注意到了译文的不足之处。他把《红楼梦》书名中的“楼”翻译成“城堡”。这种译法也许比较适合欧洲读者的阅读口味，但就中国文化、中国历史、中国环境而言，我认为不太准确。这些不足之处也可解释为什么大卫-霍克斯和约翰-闵福德的译本在德国广受欢迎。
A Dream of Red Mansions is more meaningful than an individual. It is an eternal work of art and should be promoted to the status of "World Heritage". At present, only half of European countries have translated a Dream of Red Mansions. When I first went to college in 1989, the German version of a Dream of Red Mansions was only a flantz-Kuhn excerpt, with a total of 40 chapters, only one third of the original volume. There is almost no difference in language with Kuhn's other excellent Chinese novel translations, with strong German local color. I also noticed the shortcomings of the translation. He translated "Lou" in the title of A Dream of Red Mansions into "Castle". This translation may be more suitable for European readers, but I don't think it is accurate in terms of Chinese culture, Chinese history and Chinese environment. These shortcomings can also explain why the translations of David Hawkes and John Minford are so popular in Germany.
XX年/契机我开始重新翻译《红楼梦》。也是通过这个项目，我申请到了北京大学德意志学术交流中心（Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst，简称DAAD）奖学金。因此我也得以在北京大学学习X个月。[When did you study in Peking University? And for how long?]当时的选拔委员会主席是沃尔夫冈·顾彬（Wolfgang Kubin，中文名顾彬），他后来成为我的博士生导师之一。随后在北京，我多次参观了红楼梦研究所。参观之时张#送给我一本《红楼梦》辞典。后来回到德国，我与马汉茂（Helmut Martin）合作。从他那里我了解到，史华慈（Rainer Schwarz）已经将小说前80章翻译出来，并将自己的译文交给他出版，马汉茂让我审阅了史华兹的译本。不过译文暂未达到出版质量，[Can you give more details of why it can not be published yet? ]还需修订。
XX Year/Opportunity I began to retranslate A Dream of Red Mansions. It was also through this project that I applied for a scholarship from Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst (DAAD) of Peking University. So I was able to study at Peking University for X months. At that time, the chairman of the selection committee was Wolfgang Kubin (Chinese name Gu Bin), who later became one of my doctoral supervisors. Later in Beijing, I visited the Dream of Red Mansions Research Institute many times. During the visit, Zhang # gave me a dictionary of a Dream of Red Mansions. Later, when I returned to Germany, I cooperated with Helmut Martin. I learned from him that Rainer Schwarz had translated the first 80 chapters of the novel and gave him his own translation for publication. Ma Hanmao asked me to review Schwartz's translation. However, the translation has not yet reached the publishing quality and needs to be revised.
这次翻译尝试于我而言具有重大意义，我认为修改史华兹的译本使其达到出版水平比自己独立完成120章的翻译更重要。我花了几年时间修订史华兹的译文，随后自己翻译了后40回。然后按照前80回的风格重新修改我翻译的后40回，其中人名的翻译统一采用正式的拼音系统及其拼写方法，且并非采用标准的汉语拼音，而是按照德语书写方式，这样做的目的是尽可能地吸引更多读者的关注，且避免读者出现行文风格“跳脱”感受。
This translation attempt is of great significance to me. I think it is more important to revise Schwartz's translation to the publishing level than to complete the translation of 120 chapters independently. It took me several years to revise Schwartz's translation, and then I translated the last 40 times myself. Then I revised the last 40 times of my translation according to the style of the first 80 times, Among them, the translation of names adopts the formal Pinyin system and its spelling method, and does not adopt the standard Chinese Pinyin, but according to the German writing method. The purpose of this is to attract more readers' attention as much as possible, and to avoid readers' feeling of "jumping" in writing style.
现在，读者可获得完整、精细的译本，译本必要处附有注释。之后在XX年X月[When will the fifth edition be published? ]会出版第五版，该版本会根据读者意见和自己对原文的重新理解再进行改进。比如在我未出版的120章全译本中，很多人名的翻译也考虑到了名字的中文含义。[What amendments will you make in the fifth edition of the Chamber? Could you please list some? ]
Now, readers can get a complete and detailed translation, with notes where necessary. Then [when will the fifth edition be published? ] will publish the fifth edition, which will be improved according to readers' opinions and their own re-understanding of the original text. For example, in my unpublished full translation of 120 chapters, the translation of many names also takes into account the Chinese meaning of names. [What amendments will you make in the fifth edition of the Chamber? Could you please list some? ]

=3 欧洲红学=
3.您曾在国内红学权威刊物《红楼梦学刊》上发表过两篇文章，以德国人的视角叙述西方对《红楼梦》的了解，并介绍德译本情况以及西方学者的理解及评价。从这两篇文章可以看出，《红楼梦》在西方的传播已变换形式，由文本本身的传播向舞台剧等多模态形态发展。请问现今欧洲的红学研究、传播现状如何？您认为《红楼梦》对国内外读者有何影响？
小说是“时代精神”的体现。《红楼梦》于1791年首次出版，其创作背景是中国少数民族之一的满族统治下的清朝，曹家或受康熙宠信或备受雍正冷落以致抄家没落。囿于时代背景，作者在当时无法公开批判帝制皇权，但在小说中，他在家庭日益衰败（从事道教、闲暇、诗歌创作、艺术和音乐，而不是为了能够谋生而学习）和自己没有实现作为家族继承人的期望中，寻求被迫害的根源。这种对名家望族没落之路的描写使我们想起了契诃夫的小说。此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的纪实性历史小说《铁皮鼓》(1959年)非常相似。最值得一提的是《红楼梦》和托马斯·曼的《布登勃洛克一家》（1901年）。两部小说都描写了出生富贵的年轻一代人的颓废、没落、溃散，以及一个家族的社会地位和经济状况的逐渐没落与覆灭。托马斯·曼的小说是以资产阶级社会的巨大变革为背景，而曹雪芹的作品则选取了某个朝代的更迭时期作为时代背景，在其中帝王利益与家族利益发生了冲突! 有趣的是，两部作品中的主要角色都挑选了英年早逝的类似人物。《红楼梦》里林黛玉为情而亡，秦可卿因乱伦自尽，贾元春和妙玉也是突然死亡。在《布登勃洛克一家》里克拉拉在婚后不久即死于脑结核，托马斯在牙科手术后去世，汉诺死于伤寒。两部作品都在结构和主题上运用了影射等大量的艺术手法，以丰富的故事进展描绘出一幅衰败的景象。因此，这种并行发展令人惊讶，很难说《布登勃洛克一家》的创作没受到《红楼梦》的影响。
The novel is the embodiment of "the spirit of the times". A Dream of Red Mansions was first published in 1791. Its creation background was the Qing Dynasty under the rule of Manchu, one of China's ethnic minorities. The Cao family was either favored by Kangxi or neglected by Yongzheng, resulting in the decline of property ownership. Constrained by the background of the times, the author could not publicly criticize the imperial power at that time, but in the novel, he sought the root of persecution in the declining family (engaged in Taoism, leisure, poetry creation, art and music, instead of studying in order to make a living) and his failure to realize his expectation of being the heir of the family. This decadent description of declining families reminds us of Chekhov's novels. In addition, the detailed description of the life of all social strata in the early Qing Dynasty in A Dream of Red Mansions is very similar to Gunter Grass's documentary historical novel Tin Drum (1959). The most noteworthy ones are A Dream of Red Mansions and Thomas Mann's Budenbrock Family (1901). Both novels describe the decadence, decline and collapse of the wealthy young generation, as well as the gradual decline and collapse of a family's social status and economic situation. Thomas Mann's novels are set against the background of great changes in bourgeois society, while Cao Xueqin's works choose the change period of a certain dynasty as the background of the times, in which the interests of emperors and families conflict! Interestingly, the main characters in the two works have chosen similar characters who died young. In a Dream of Red Mansions, Lin Daiyu died of love, Qin Keqing committed suicide due to incest, and Jia Yuanchun and Miaoyu also died suddenly. In the Budenbrock Family, Clara died of brain tuberculosis shortly after marriage, Thomas died after dental surgery, and Hanno died of typhoid fever. Both works use a lot of artistic techniques such as innuendo in structure and theme, and depict a declining scene with rich story progress. Therefore, this parallel development is surprising. It is hard to say that the creation of the Budenbroc Family was not influenced by a Dream of Red Mansions.

4.您曾在欧洲多所学校任教，请问现今欧洲汉学的研究状况如何？
You have taught in many European schools. What is the current research status of Sinology in Europe?

=5 为何从古典文学的翻译转向中国现当代文学的翻译？=
除了《红楼梦》这一代表译作之外，您还翻译了包括鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱锺书、韩少功、贾平凹等在内的一批著名作家的优秀作品。可否谈谈为什么选择不同时代作家的作品？您又是如何再现他们不同的写作风格？[This question intends to know about why you choose to translate works of those writers. Is it because of personal interests or the publisher asking you to do so?
I think the section of Xu Zechen serves as good interview answers. As Chinese readers, we are desperate to know what things are like from Westerners’ perspective. ]
为何从古典文学的翻译转向中国现当代文学的翻译？
Why did you shift from the translation of classical literature to the translation of modern and contemporary Chinese literature?
不同时代的作品反映出不同的时代背景，这些作品对我个人而言是很好的窗口，可以窥探不同时期中国的社会面貌，还可与同期的欧洲文学进行比较。贾平凹作为20世纪80年代以来中国最伟大的作家之一，英译本很少。究其原因，首先在于他的作品植根于山西农村，带有浓重的地域风俗习惯。首先读懂原文对译者来说就是一项挑战，更不用提在译入语中找到对应的表达。我在翻译贾平凹的XX中就遇到了这个问题。。。。。。。。[Can you list some difficulties when translating Jia Pingwa’s or any other author’s works? We like the details.]
The works of different times reflect different backgrounds of the times. These works are a good window for me personally. I can spy on the social outlook of China in different periods and compare them with European literature in the same period. Jia Pingwa, as one of the greatest writers in China since 1980s, has few English versions. The reason lies in the fact that his works are rooted in Shanxi rural areas and have strong regional customs. It is a challenge for translators to understand the original text first, not to mention finding the corresponding expression in the target language. I encountered this problem in translating Jia Pingwa's XX. . . . . . . .
对于译者来说，翻译不同作者的作品时面对的翻译难点不同。而不同的译者有着不同的处理方式，这也能解释为何同一部作品有几个翻译版本，且翻译策略各有不同。我深知译者的文化背景对译本翻译策略的选择有很大影响，所以有些作品即便存在译本，我还是选择重新翻译。从鲁迅的短篇小说中，我们可以读出作者内心的矛盾：文学能改变世界吗？难道一定要身体力行才能改变世界吗？难道连唤醒那些像阿Q一样任由自己被牵着走，任人宰割的昏昏欲睡的同胞们也能做到吗？当无法改变自己和社会的命运时，唤醒他们还有什么用呢？作为译者，我们如何再现这种矛盾心理，如何处理鲁迅在翻译中有些古板的早期白话，如何与他对日常政治事件的论述。这些都是翻译中必不可免的问题。目前已有的鲁迅作品德译本在这些方面的处理方式多样。巴金在受到批评后修改了三部曲之一的《家》，删除了缠足现象。在翻译这部作品的过程中，译者必须决定是翻译原版还是删减后的版本。
For translators, translation difficulties are different when translating works of different authors. Different translators have different ways of dealing with it, which can explain why there are several translated versions of the same work and the translation strategies are different. I know that the translator's cultural background has a great influence on the choice of translation strategies, so I choose to retranslate some works even if there are translations. From Lu Xun's short stories, we can read the author's inner contradiction: Can literature change the world? Do you have to practice to change the world? Can we even wake up those sleepy compatriots who let themselves be led and slaughtered like Ah Q? What's the use of awakening them when they can't change their own destiny and that of society? As translators, how do we reproduce this ambivalence, how do we deal with Lu Xun's rigid early vernacular in translation, and how do we communicate with his exposition of daily political events? These are all inevitable problems in translation. At present, the existing German versions of Lu Xun's works deal with these aspects in various ways. After being criticized, Ba Jin revised Home, one of the trilogy, and deleted foot binding. In the process of translating this work, the translator must decide whether to translate the original version or the abridged version.
我个人很喜欢徐则臣的作品。在2009年（北上2015年才出版）[Is this book called <北上>？]的法兰克福书展上，他的故事《北上》受到广泛好评。事实上，他的生活经历与我有些重叠部分。我们都在北京大学学习过，只不过他比我早入学一点（多久）。当时校园里有一种亚文化，博士生们住在餐厅旁边的闲置房间里，因为他们对大学里的人、办事流程了如指掌，而且在独立的诗歌和艺术界也有联系，所以每逢有聚会，他们都很抢手，大家竞相邀请他们参加聚会。那时的大学涌现着一股乐观主义的精神，起初门外涌现出私营商业市场，后来校园里传出“开公司”的口号。那时，毕业生不愿毕业就被分入特定的工作岗位，身上的自由和责任感促使他们闯一闯这个世界。故事里拿着盗版产品的街边小贩和软件开发产品的学生先锋也是这幅画的一部分。徐则臣将这种气氛真实地捕捉到，令人信服。他笔下的人物在我们心上扎根，爱上他们，学会在生活中打拼。也是这种情感体验上的共鸣促使我翻译《北上》这部作品。
Personally, I like Xu Zechen's works very much. At the Frankfurt Book Fair in 2009 (published in 2015), his story "Going North" was widely praised. In fact, his life experience overlaps with mine. We all studied at Peking University, but he entered school a little earlier than me. At that time, there was a subculture on campus. Doctoral students lived in idle rooms next to restaurants. Because they knew the people and procedures in the university like the back of their hand, and they also had contacts in independent poetry and art circles, they were very popular whenever there was a party, and everyone invited them to attend the party. At that time, there was a spirit of optimism in universities. At first, private commercial markets emerged outside the doors. Later, the slogan of "starting a company" came out on campus. At that time, graduates were assigned to specific jobs without graduating, and their freedom and sense of responsibility prompted them to enter the world. Street vendors with pirated products and student pioneers with software development products in the story are also part of this painting. Xu Zechen captured this atmosphere truly and convincingly. His characters take root in our hearts, fall in love with them and learn to work hard in life. It is also this resonance in emotional experience that prompted me to translate the work "North".

=6 跨文化身份=
6. 作为汉学家和翻译家，您的跨文化身份让你置身于东西方文明之间。当您从欧洲文化和文学背景来到中国的文化和文学背景中，在两种迥异的语言之间进行转换，是否感到自己的思维方式和行文风格发生了些许改变？[This question asks you whether living in China for almost eight years affects your translating ideologies? Is there any difference if you only learned Chinese but never lived in China for such a long time? ]

=7 中西合璧=
有人认为中华文化走出去最好的译介模式是“中西合璧”，如葛浩文和林丽君的译作在国内外产生了较大影响。您对此有何看法？[I think this answer is rather insufficient. ]
什么是理想的译者？韦努蒂认为译者应该是隐身的，看不见的。如果读者没有注意到所读文本是一个译本，那么译者就达到了完美的境界。我认为，原语文化的译者在理解原文上的确更占优势，但是在传达上就不如来自目标语文化的译者，只有这样的译者才能向目标读者传达想要传达的形象。已经掌握了两种文化和语言的人来做译者是最合适不过的。当然，如果译者本身就是作家就更好了，这样翻译出来的译文想必更贴近原作。
What is an ideal translator? Venuti believes that translators should be invisible and invisible. If the reader doesn't notice that the text he reads is a translation, then the translator has reached a perfect state. In my opinion, the translator of the source language culture does have an advantage in understanding the original text, but he is not as good as the translator from the target language culture in conveying it. Only in this way can the translator convey the image he wants to convey to the target readers. People who have mastered both cultures and languages are the most suitable translators. Of course, it would be better if the translator himself was a writer, so the translated version must be closer to the original.
译文总是一种新的创造，它在文字上不能再模仿原文，而在功能、效果等方面却可以再现原文的特点，所以葛浩文和林丽君这样的“中西合璧”的组合在翻译极具中国特色的作品时应该会比较合适。
Translation is always a new creation. It can no longer imitate the original text in words, but can reproduce the characteristics of the original text in terms of function and effect. Therefore, the combination of "Chinese and Western combination" such as Ge Haowen and Lin Lijun should be more appropriate when translating works with Chinese characteristics.

=8 中华文化外译传播=
8. 根据您的实践经验和理性思考，中华文化外译传播有哪些成功因素?
首先，对于普通读者而言，接受《红楼梦》第一步就必须有可读的译本，因此《红楼梦》在其它没有译本的国家的传播有赖于译者的工作。我认为等待引进不如主动输出。这样成功的例子不是没有。20世纪80年代，杨宪益倡议出版熊猫丛书，意在向国外译介中国当代、现代和古代的优秀作品，所出版的杂志和从书在国外有相当大的影响，几乎成为很长时期内国外研究中国汉学、对中国文学有兴趣的人了解中国文学的唯一的窗口。因此，中国相关机构可借鉴当时的经验，在还没有译本的欧洲国家作出尝试。
First of all, for ordinary readers, the first step to accept a Dream of Red Mansions is to have a readable translation, so the dissemination of a Dream of Red Mansions in other countries without a translation depends on the translator's work. I think it is better to take the initiative to export than to wait for import. There are not no such successful examples. In 1980s, Yang Xianyi initiated the publication of Panda Series, aiming at translating and introducing excellent works of contemporary, modern and ancient China to foreign countries. The published magazines and books have a considerable influence abroad, and have almost become the only window for people who study Chinese Sinology abroad and are interested in Chinese literature to understand Chinese literature for a long time. Therefore, relevant Chinese institutions can learn from the experience at that time and try in European countries that have not yet translated them.
其次，西方尤其是美国的《红楼梦》研究开始用现代理论解读《红楼梦》，如 “感觉”、“同性恋”等。因此在每隔几年举办一次的红学会议上，整理以前的研究，撰写一部西方学术界与小说接触史就显得十分重要。
Secondly, the study of "A Dream of Red Mansions" in the West, especially in the United States, began to interpret "A Dream of Red Mansions" with modern theories, such as "feeling" and "homosexuality". Therefore, it is very important to sort out the previous research and write a history of contact between western academic circles and novels at the Redology Conference held every few years.
我很早就开始关注《红楼梦》在西方的接受情况。其刚进入西方世界之时并不是一片叫好，直至被列为世界文学的一部分，这一过程持续了很多年。一方面是因为完整的译本直至XX年才出现，另一方面是因为许多西方汉学家和译者的民族中心主义世界观，他们认为只有本土的文学才称得上世界文学，而对别国文学视若无睹。在我看来，跨越时间空间，对优秀作品的认同还是同样的，因此《红楼梦》应该成为世界文化遗产。
I began to pay attention to the acceptance of A Dream of Red Mansions in the West very early. When it first entered the western world, it was not applauded until it was listed as a part of world literature, which lasted for many years. On the one hand, the complete translation did not appear until XX years; On the other hand, it is because many western sinologists and translators have an ethnocentric world outlook. They think that only local literature can be called world literature and turn a blind eye to other countries' literature. In my opinion, across time and space, the recognition of excellent works is the same, so A Dream of Red Mansions should become a world cultural heritage.
最后，中国文化作品的译介研究不能仅仅依靠本土研究者、译者，还需要目标语国家的同人鼎力相助。就《红楼梦》而言，对其翻译的研究不在少数，但遗憾的是，其中研究者多为中国学者，他们研究时没有与本土学者交流。但我认为，为了提升学术质量，中国学者的学术成果在发表前应由本土学者审查。无论如何，无论在中国还是在西方，一个新的领域就是小说的跨文化研究。
Finally, the translation and introduction of Chinese cultural works can not only rely on local researchers and translators, but also need the full help of colleagues in the target language countries. As far as A Dream of Red Mansions is concerned, there are not a few studies on its translation, but unfortunately, most of the researchers are Chinese scholars, and they did not communicate with local scholars during their research. However, I think that in order to improve the academic quality, the academic achievements of Chinese scholars should be reviewed by local scholars before publication. In any case, whether in China or in the West, a new field is the cross-cultural study of novels.

=9 译研结合=
作为世界汉学研究会会长，您组织了多场与汉学相关的国际会议，包括一年一度的世界汉学研究大会（WACS），持续向世界展示中华文化的魅力。您既是译者，又是研究者，您如何看待这两个身份之间的转换？您对从事译研结合的学者有何建议吗？

Als Präsident der World Association for Chinese Studies (WACS) haben Sie mehrere internationale Konferenzen im Zusammenhang mit Chinastudien organisiert, darunter den jährlichen Weltkongress für Chinastudien (WACS), der der Welt weiterhin den Charme der chinesischen Kultur vor Augen führt. Sie sind sowohl Übersetzer als auch Forscher, wie sehen Sie den Übergang zwischen diesen beiden Identitäten? Haben Sie einen Rat für Wissenschaftler, die sich mit der Kombination von Übersetzung und Forschung beschäftigen?

Woesler: Im Westen werden Wissenschaftler in der Regel höher angesehen als Übersetzer. Die Arbeit des Übersetzers ist aber dennoch wichtig, da die Wissenschaft auf die Erschließung der Quellen angewiesen ist und da vor allem die breite Öffentlichkeit ohne Übersetzungen die fremdsprachige Literatur nicht kennenlernen und verstehen könnte.

Woesler: In the West, scientists are generally held in higher esteem than translators. The work of the translator is nevertheless important, since science depends on the development of the sources and since above all the general public could not get to know and understand the foreign-language literature without translations.

吴漠汀：在西方，学者的地位普遍高于翻译家。不过，译者的工作还是很重要的，因为科学有赖于源头的发展，最重要的是，如果没有翻译，大众就无法认识和了解外文文献。

Wissenschaftler, die Übersetzungen kritisieren, wie es z.B. jetzt in China Mode wird, verschiedene englischsprachige Übersetzungen des Traums der Roten Kammer zu kritisieren, sollten auch einmal selbst als Schriftsteller und als Übersetzer arbeiten. Zudem sollte man am besten nur Übersetzungen in die eigene Sprache kritisieren. Eine Übersetzung in eine Zielsprache zu kritisieren, verlangt extrem viele Voraussetzungen, die kaum jemand in China mit sich bringt. Wenn man seine Ausgangssprache gut beherrscht, steht der Wissenschaftler hier auf sicherem Boden, er kann Nebenbedeutungen und Nuancen erkennen und die Angemessenheit von Wortwahl, Stil etc. besser einschätzen.

Scholars who criticize translations, as is now the fashion in China, for example, to criticize various English-language translations of the Dream of the Red Chamber, should also work as writers and as translators themselves for once. Moreover, it is best to criticize only translations into one's own language. Criticizing a translation into a target language requires an extremely large number of prerequisites that hardly anyone in China has. If one has a good command of one's source language, the scholar is on safer ground here; he or she can recognize secondary meanings and nuances and better assess the appropriateness of word choice, style, and so on.

像中国现在流行的批评翻译的学者，比如批评《红楼梦》的各种英译本，有的时候也应该以作家本身和译者的身份工作。此外，最好只批评翻译成自己语言的作品。批评翻译成目标语言需要极多的前提，而在中国几乎没有人具备。如果一个人对自己的源语言掌握得很好，那么学者在这里就比较安全，能够识别次要的含义和细微的差别，更好地评估选词、文体等是否恰当。

Wenn ich jedes Jahr über 100 Kolleginnen und Kollegen zu Vorträgen über ihr Fachgebiet einlade, so vor allem aus dem Grund, weil ich denke, dass man sein Leben lang lernen kann, dass man von Kolleginnen und Kollegen lernen kann und seinen Horizont durch mehr Perspektiven und die Diskussionen am Rande der Konferenz erweitert.

When I invite more than 100 colleagues to lecture on their field every year, it is mainly because I think that one can learn throughout one's life, that one can learn from colleagues and broaden one's horizons through more perspectives and the discussions on the sidelines of the conference.

我每年邀请100多位同事到自己的领域讲课，主要是觉得人的一生都是可以学习的，通过更多的视角和会议间隙的讨论，可以向同事学习，拓宽自己的视野。

=10 国际汉学中心=
您是湖南师范大学“潇湘学者”特聘教授，并担任国际汉学中心主任。请问：该中心主要从事工作？您未来计划开展哪些项目推动中德文化交流？

Sie sind ein angesehener Professor der Hunan Normal University und der Direktor des Zentrums für Internationale Chinawissenschaften. Was ist die Hauptaufgabe des Zentrums? Welche zukünftigen Projekte planen Sie, um den kulturellen Austausch zwischen Deutschland und China zu fördern?

Woesler: Das Zentrum für Internationale Chinawissenschaften ist eine Brücke zwischen der heimischen Guoxue und den ausländischen Chinawissenschaften. In diesem Forum können sich Wissenschaftler aus der ganzen Welt mit ihren unterschiedlichen Perspektiven zum Austausch und zur Zusammenarbeit treffen.

Woesler: The Center for International China Studies is a bridge between domestic Guoxue and foreign China studies. In this forum, scholars from all over the world with their different perspectives can meet for exchange and cooperation.

吴漠汀：国际汉学研究中心是国内国学与对外汉语研究的桥梁。在这个论坛上，来自世界各地的学者带着各自不同的观点，可以聚在一起交流合作。

Aus Hongkong haben wir die US-Amerikanerin Margaret Chu gewinnen können, die nebenberuflich als Senior Fellow Kontakte pflegt und Beiträge evaluiert und verbessert. Sie ist gerade Anfang 2021 als Associate Professorin an die Macao University of Science and Technology berufen worden.

From Hong Kong, we have been able to attract Margaret Chu from the US, who is a part-time Senior Fellow who maintains contacts and evaluates and improves contributions. She has just been appointed as an Associate Professor at Macao University of Science and Technology in early 2021.

我们从香港吸引了来自美国的Margaret Chu，她是兼职高级研究员，负责保持联系，评估和改进贡献。她刚刚在2021年初被聘为澳门科技大学副教授。

Ms. Chu has also brought many colleagues into the network, including from Oxford, California, and Massachusetts.

Frau Chu hat auch viele Kollegen, unter anderem aus Oxford, Kalifornien und Massachusetts, ins Netzwerk geholt.

朱女士还将许多同事带进了网络，包括来自牛津、加州和马萨诸塞州的同事。

Aus Deutschland haben vier Kollegen einen Ruf auf Professuren am Foreign Studies College angenommen, darunter zwei Sinologen, die das Zentrum verstärken: Der Philosoph Ole Döring aus Karlsruhe und der Historiker Cord Eberspächer aus Düsseldorf, der das dortige Konfuzius-Institut als Direktor geleitet hat.

From Germany, four colleagues have accepted appointments to professorships at the Foreign Studies College, including two Sinologists who are strengthening the center: Philosopher Ole Döring from Karlsruhe and historian Cord Eberspächer from Düsseldorf, who was director of the Confucius Institute there.

来自德国的四位同事已经接受了外国语学院教授职位的任命，其中包括两位加强中心的汉学家。哲学家Ole Döring来自卡尔斯鲁厄，历史学家Cord Eberspächer来自杜塞尔多夫，他曾在那里担任孔子学院院长。

Wir alle, zusammen mit Kolleginnen und Kollegen aus Russland, den USA, und verschiedenen Staaten in Europa, arbeiten gemeinsam an einer "Geschichte der Chinawissenschaften", die mit einem Übersichtsband sowie 10 Einzelbänden konzipiert ist. Sie soll zeitgleich auf Englisch, Deutsch und Chinesisch erscheinen.

All of us, together with colleagues from Russia, the USA, and various countries in Europe, are working together on a "History of Chinese Studies", which is conceived with an overview volume as well as 10 individual volumes. It is to be published simultaneously in English, German and Chinese.

我们大家和俄罗斯、美国以及欧洲各国的同仁一起，正在共同编写 "中国研究史"，构思中的 "中国研究史 "有一卷总论，也有十卷单行本。该书将以英文、德文和中文同时出版。

In einem anderen Projekt beschäftigt sich das Zentrum mit der Geschichte der Auseinandersetzung mit den Vier Großen Romanen und insbesondere mit dem Traum der Roten Kammer im Ausland, insbesondere im Westen.

In another project, the Center is looking at the history of engagement with the Four Great Novels and, in particular, the Dream of the Red Chamber abroad, especially in the West.

在另一个项目中，该中心正在研究四大名著，特别是《红楼梦》在国外，尤其是在西方的参与历史。

Im Bereich moderne Literatur schauen wir uns Lu Xun an, unter anderem seine Bekanntschaft mit europäischen Schriftstellern und Reform-Pädagogen. Auch Qian Zhongshu ist aus Sicht der internationalen Chinawissenschaften interessant, seine Texte sind voller Bezüge auf westliche Literatur.

In the area of modern literature, we look at Lu Xun, including his acquaintance with European writers and reform educators. Qian Zhongshu is also interesting from the perspective of international Chinese studies; his texts are full of references to Western literature.

在现代文学中，我们看鲁迅，包括他与欧洲作家和改革教育家的相识。从国际汉学的角度看，钱钟书也很有意思，他的文章中充满了对西方文学的引用。

Das Zentrum unterstützt die Übersetzung chinesischer Bücher ins Englische und Deutsche. So wurden zahlreiche Romane, Erzählungen und Sachbücher übersetzt.

The Center supports the translation of Chinese books into English and German. Thus, numerous novels, short stories and non-fiction books have been translated.

中心支持将中文书籍翻译成英语和德语。因此，翻译了许多小说、短篇小说和非小说类书籍。

=11. 曹雪芹和跨国文化=
从跨国文化的角度看曹雪芹你有合想法？

Woesler: Cao Xueqin and even more his protagonist Jia Baoyu both are early humanists, universalists and world citizens. The Red Chamber Dreams function worldwide. The Dream is a complex showroom of diverse aspects of Chinese cultures and is the embodiment and essence of Chinese cultures, but it has also a global impact, therefore it should be honoured as “World Documentary Heritage”.

吴漠汀：曹雪芹，尤其是他的主人公贾宝玉，都是早期的人文主义者，普世主义者和世界公民。《红楼梦》具有普世价值。《红楼梦》综合展示了中国的多元文化，是中国文化的集中体现和精华，同时在全球范围内产生影响，理应列入世界记忆遗产名录。

Cao Xueqin’s message is not simply the one of “Paradise Lost”, instead he himself made the best out of his life. Although being less wealthy than when his family still enjoyed the favour of the emperor, there was a payroll system and a social net intact in Early Qing China, where he received enough income to be independent from his rich relatives, to be selective on accepting jobs, to live a relaxed life in a small house in the nature, spending time with his family and friends, follow his own interests, like reading, writing and drinking wine, making kites for the children and thinking of the disadvantaged.

曹雪芹所传达的信息并不是简单的“失乐园”，相反，他把自己的生活过得很好。虽然比起他的家族享受皇帝的宠爱，他过得没有那么富裕，但清初中国有一套薪俸制度和一张完整的社会网，他获得了足够的收入，可以独立于富贵亲戚，可以有选择性地接受工作，可以在大自然的小房子里过着悠闲的生活，可以与家人和朋友共度时光，可以追随自己的兴趣，例如读书，写作和饮酒，可以为孩子们做风筝，可以为弱势群体着想。

Cao Xueqin was fully aware of his time and China’s cultural achievements, he was familiar with the different levels of society, he was a detailed observer and skilful narrator. He may have conceptualized the ending of the novel as a discussion about the different personalities of the characters in the novel and therefore displaying his reflection about life and his psychological understanding of the diversity of human nature. He was able to grasp the “spirit of time” (Zeitgeist) and with his autobiographical experience create an eternal coming-of-age novel not just for his family, for the Qing-Chinese, for Chinese people, but for mankind.

曹雪芹对自己所处的时代和中国的文化成就了如指掌，他熟悉社会的不同层面，他是一个细致的观察者和娴熟的叙述者。因此，他在小说中对人的不同个性的理解和对小说中人物性格的多样性进行了概念化的探讨。他能够把握“时代精神”，用他的自传体经历，不仅为他的家庭，为清朝的中国人，为中国人民，而且为人类，创作了一部永恒的成人小说。

This tradition of Coming-of-age novels is also a European one, like enlightenment philosopher Voltaire’s novel Candide or Optimism《老实人》shows at the very same time (1759) in Europe. Also Voltaire’s Candide has to leave the luxurious paradise of his childhood and strives for true love, but his main learning is more pessimistic, since Voltaire wrote the novel in opposition to Leibniz, who optimistically looked to China as “the best of all worlds”. Recent research findings show that China had a much larger influence on European enlightenment philosophers and we can be sure, that also Cao Xueqin was aware of some European literary traditions.

这种成熟的传统小说也是一个欧洲人,像启蒙运动哲学家伏尔泰在欧洲同时间出版的的小说《老实人》(1759年)。伏尔泰笔下的老实人不得不离开童年的奢华天堂，为追求真爱而奋斗，但他的主要学习内容却更为悲观，因为伏尔泰的小说与莱布尼茨截然相反，莱布尼茨乐观地认为中国是“所有世界中最好的”。最近的研究发现，中国对欧洲启蒙运动哲学家的影响要大得多，我们可以肯定，曹雪芹对欧洲的一些文学传统也有所了解。

=12. 《红楼梦》跟今天国内外的读者有什么关系？=

Woesler: The novel is an embodiment of “Zeitgeist”.

吴漠汀：小说作为 "时代精神 "的体现。

According to Georg Lukács’ Theory of the Novel, while the Epos (like Homer’s Ilias, which like the Dream reasons the stories in the divine realm) displayed a holistic world experience, a complete, self-contained culture, the novel displays, that the modern world has become infinitely large and has lost its homely quality.

根据格奥尔格-卢卡奇的小说理论，虽然Epos（像荷马的伊利亚斯，它像梦理由神界的故事）展示了一个整体的世界经验，一个完整的，自足的文化，小说展示，现代世界已经变得无限大，已经失去了它的家的品质。

The novel as a genre is no longer documenting just one culture, but represents, with the words of Walter Benjamin, the Organon of History. So the understanding of the novel changed with Lukacs to historical-philosophically. A novel is understood as typical for its historical era, the novel embodies the spirit of the epoch (Zeitgeist).

小说作为一种文体，不再只是记录一种文化，而是用瓦尔特-本雅明的话说，代表了历史的有机体。所以，对小说的理解随着卢卡奇的改变，变成了历史哲学的理解。小说被理解为其历史时代的典型，小说体现了时代精神（Zeitgeist）。

The Red Chamber Dreams are written in front of the background of the Manchu minority having taken over the power in formerly Han-shaped Ming-China (which was a multi-ethnic and crosscultural society) and families suffering the changing favor of changing emperors, with the Cao family being fostered by Kangxi and being persecuted by Yongzheng.

《红楼梦》写的是满族少数民族在原汉字形的明中国（这是一个多民族、跨文化的社会）掌握了政权，家庭遭受换代皇帝的宠爱，曹家被康熙扶植，被雍正迫害的背景前。

While the author in his time could not criticize the system and power of emperors, in the novel he came to terms with this life by seeking the guilt for the persecution in the growing decadence of the family (engaging in Daoism, leisure, poetry-writing, arts and music instead of learning for being able to earn a living) and in himself not fulfilling the expectations as the family heir. This description of decadence of a declining family reminds us of the novels of Tschechov (and e.g. in the Buddenbrooks by Mann, including the turn to arts and music).

虽然作者在他的时代无法批判帝制和皇权，但在小说中，他为家族的日益衰败（参加道教、娱乐、诗歌、艺术和音乐活动，而不是为了谋生而学习）和自己作为家族继承人没有实现家族期望感到自责，通过这样做，他也对这种生活做妥协。这种对没落家族颓废状况的描写，让我们想起了契诃夫的小说（如曼恩的《布登布鲁克》，包括对艺术和音乐的转向）

Moreover, with the detailed description of life on all social levels in early Qing Dynasty, the Dream appears as a documentary historical novel very much like Günter Grass’ The Tin Drum 1959.

此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的《铁皮鼓1959》非常相似，《铁皮鼓1959》是一部纪实历史小说。

=13 中德文化交流=
我们非常感佩您对中华文化的热爱、对推动中德文化交流做出的突出贡献！再次感谢您接受我的访问！祝您多结学术硕果！

Wir bewundern Ihre Liebe zur chinesischen Kultur und Ihren herausragenden Beitrag zur Förderung des kulturellen Austauschs zwischen Deutschland und China! Nochmals vielen Dank für dieses Interview! Ich wünsche Ihnen viele akademische Erfolge!

Woesler: Vielen Dank! Tatsächlich sehe ich es als eine der wichtigsten Aufgaben unserer Zeit, Menschen zusammenzubringen. Viele Nationen sind stolz auf ihre Kultur. Inzwischen wissen wir, dass keine Kultur besser oder schlechter ist als eine andere. Aber es ist faszinierend, und es fördert unsere Entwicklung als Individuen und als Menschheit insgesamt, von den verschiedenen Kulturen zu wissen. Wenn sich wie ich als Deutscher in die chinesische Kultur, auf der ganzen Welt Chinesen in andere Kulturen und Angehörige anderer Kulturen in die chinesische verlieben, so führt dies zu einer Bereicherung und einem Erblühen menschlicher Kultur insgesamt. So können die Menschen das Beste, das in ihnen steckt verwirklichen: Respekt und Toleranz.

Woesler: Thank you very much! Indeed, I see it as one of the most important tasks of our time to bring people together. Many nations are proud of their culture. By now we know that no culture is better or worse than another. But it is fascinating, and it promotes our development as individuals and as humanity as a whole, to know about the different cultures. If, like me as a German, Chinese people fall in love with Chinese culture, and all over the world Chinese people fall in love with other cultures, and members of other cultures fall in love with Chinese culture, this leads to an enrichment and blossoming of human culture as a whole. In this way, people can realize the best that is within them: Respect and tolerance.

吴漠汀：非常感谢你! 的确，我认为这是我们这个时代最重要的任务之一，就是把人们团结起来。许多国家都以自己的文化为荣。现在我们知道，没有任何一种文化比另一种文化更好或更差。但它是迷人的，它能促进我们作为个人和整个人类的发展，了解不同的文化。当像我这个德国人一样，中国人爱上了中国文化，全世界的中国人爱上了其他文化，其他文化的成员爱上了中国文化，这就导致了整个人类文化的丰富和绽放。这样，人们才能实现自己内心的最佳状态。尊重和宽容。

=Notes about the intercultural approach=
==《红楼梦》与其他世界文学作品的相似性——推荐《红楼梦》列入世界记忆遗产名录 Commonness between the Red Chamber Dreams and other World Literature Novels – Proposing the Red Chamber Dreams to the World Documentary Heritage List==

吴漠汀，湖南师范大学 Martin Woesler, Hunan Normal University

==Abstract==
In every culture, readers associate the literature they know with new literature they read. So literature is always cumulative, it grows out of existing literature and can refer back to it. When Western readers read the Red Chamber Dreams, they foremost associate novels and other pieces of literature of their own cultural tradition with the Dreams. This has also influenced the first full translation into German.
Cao Xueqin and even more his protagonist Jia Baoyu both are early humanists, universalists and world citizens. The Red Chamber Dreams function worldwide. The Dream is a complex showroom of diverse aspects of Chinese cultures and is the embodiment and essence of Chinese cultures, but it has also a global impact, therefore it should be honoured as “World Documentary Heritage”.

==Key words==
Western culture, reception tradition, German translation, Embodiment of Chinese cultures, global compatibility, World Documentary Heritage

==摘要==
在每一种文化中，读者都会把他们读到的新文学与已知文学联系起来，所以文学总是积累的，它从现有的文学中生长出来，并以已有文学为参考。西方读者在阅读《红楼梦》时，首先会把《红楼梦》与自身文化传统中的小说和其他文学作品联系起来，这也影响了首次德语全译本。
曹雪芹，尤其是他的主人公贾宝玉，都是早期的人文主义者，普世主义者和世界公民。《红楼梦》具有普世价值。《红楼梦》综合展示了中国的多元文化，是中国文化的集中体现和精华，同时在全球范围内产生影响，理应列入世界记忆遗产名录。

==关键词==

西方文化，传统保护，德国翻译，中国文化具像化表现，全球兼容，世界遗产文献 --Weiyafei (talk) 07:10, 28 December 2020 (UTC)Wei yafei

==1. Chinese Ethics==

To help the poor and disadvantaged belongs to the traditional core values of Chinese culture.

When we sit in the Beijing Subway today, the loudspeaker announcement reminds us, that it is Chinese traditional ethics to give seats to the disadvantaged (老弱病残孕让座是中国传统道德). We know of Cao Xueqin, that he supported the poor and disadvantaged, and that he made kites for children.

However, when we look closer at these “Chinese Ethics”, we discover, that they are claimed also in Indian Buddhism “karuna” and in the Christian tradition of “caritas” and in almost every civilization. Therefore, we might call these values “human ethics”.

中国伦理“扶贫济困”是中国文化的传统核心价值观。当我们今天坐在北京地铁时，扬声器的公告提醒我们，让弱势群体有座位是中国传统道德。我们知道曹雪芹，他支持穷人和处境不利的人，他为孩子们制作风筝。但是，当我们仔细观察这些“中国伦理学”时，我们发现，印度佛教“ karuna”，基督教的“明爱”传统以及几乎所有文明中也都声称拥有它们。因此，我们可以将这些价值观称为“人类道德”。--Wen Xiaoyi (talk) 15:24, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

==2. Compatibility Why do the Red Chamber Dreams function worldwide and have achieved world literature status even in their translations?==

2. 兼容性为什么《红楼梦》在世界范围内广泛流传，甚至在翻译领域中也取得了世界文学的地位？

First of all, the Red Chamber Dreams are, like novels worldwide, a piece of entertainment literature. In comparison to the drama, in which every element is compulsory and plays its part in the overall structure, in the novel the line of action itself is simpler and not so important, most of the scenes or episodes are loosely put together and fit in the broader theme of the novel.

首先，《红楼梦》和世界小说一样，是一部娱乐文学。与戏剧中的每一个元素都是强制性的，在整体结构中起作用的戏剧相比，小说的行动路线本身更简单，也不那么重要，大部分场景或情节都松散地组合在一起，这和小说更广泛的主题相吻合。

However, the lose arrangement of episodes of the Dreams comes from the tradition of almost unconnected episodes like in the Shuihuzhuan and is a step towards the greater coherence of the episodes, the aligning into a story line and the greater concentration on fewer protagonists. Therefore, the Dreams show clearly a step towards the Western tradition of novels, maybe because of growing Western influence in Qing dynasty.

然而，《红楼梦》章回结构不连续来自于《水浒传》中几乎没有联系的章回的传统，这是朝着章回更连贯、与故事线一致以及更集中于较少主角的方向迈出的一步。因此，《红楼梦》明显向西方小说传统迈进了一步，可能是因为西方对清代的影响越来越大。

==3. Impact of translator’s native culture on the translation process==

3.译者的本土文化对翻译过程的影响

There are intercultural parallels between the Red Chamber Dreams and Western works of literature.

《红楼梦》和西方文学作品之间有跨国文化的相似之处。

These parallels are fundamental for the translation and were explicitly and implicitly fundamental for the German translator Martin Woesler during his translation and editorial work on the first full German translation. In the following, I will mention some of the Western novels and pieces of literature, which the Western reader of the Dreams will immediately think of.

这些相似之处是翻译的根本，也是德文译者马丁-沃斯勒在翻译和编辑第一部德文全译本时明确和隐含的根本。下面，我将提到一些西方的小说和文学作品，西方的读者读到梦会立即想到这些作品。

==4. The novel as embodiment of “Zeitgeist”==

4. 小说作为 "时代精神 "的体现。

According to Georg Lukács’ Theory of the Novel, while the Epos (like Homer’s Ilias, which like the Dream reasons the stories in the divine realm) displayed a holistic world experience, a complete, self-contained culture, the novel displays, that the modern world has become infinitely large and has lost its homely quality.

根据格奥尔格-卢卡奇的小说理论，虽然Epos（像荷马的伊利亚斯，它像梦理由神界的故事）展示了一个整体的世界经验，一个完整的，自足的文化，小说展示，现代世界已经变得无限大，已经失去了它的家的品质。

The novel as a genre is no longer documenting just one culture, but represents, with the words of Walter Benjamin, the Organon of History. So the understanding of the novel changed with Lukacs to historical-philosophically. A novel is understood as typical for its historical era, the novel embodies the spirit of the epoch (Zeitgeist).

小说作为一种文体，不再只是记录一种文化，而是用瓦尔特-本雅明的话说，代表了历史的有机体。所以，对小说的理解随着卢卡奇的改变，变成了历史哲学的理解。小说被理解为其历史时代的典型，小说体现了时代精神（Zeitgeist）。

The Red Chamber Dreams are written in front of the background of the Manchu minority having taken over the power in formerly Han-shaped Ming-China (which was a multi-ethnic and crosscultural society) and families suffering the changing favor of changing emperors, with the Cao family being fostered by Kangxi and being persecuted by Yongzheng.

《红楼梦》写的是满族少数民族在原汉字形的明中国（这是一个多民族、跨文化的社会）掌握了政权，家庭遭受换代皇帝的宠爱，曹家被康熙扶植，被雍正迫害的背景前。

While the author in his time could not criticize the system and power of emperors, in the novel he came to terms with this life by seeking the guilt for the persecution in the growing decadence of the family (engaging in Daoism, leisure, poetry-writing, arts and music instead of learning for being able to earn a living) and in himself not fulfilling the expectations as the family heir. This description of decadence of a declining family reminds us of the novels of Tschechov (and e.g. in the Buddenbrooks by Mann, including the turn to arts and music).

虽然作者在他的时代无法批判帝制和皇权，但在小说中，他为家族的日益衰败（参加道教、娱乐、诗歌、艺术和音乐活动，而不是为了谋生而学习）和自己作为家族继承人没有实现家族期望感到自责，通过这样做，他也对这种生活做妥协。这种对没落家族颓废状况的描写，让我们想起了契诃夫的小说（如曼恩的《布登布鲁克》，包括对艺术和音乐的转向）

Moreover, with the detailed description of life on all social levels in early Qing Dynasty, the Dream appears as a documentary historical novel very much like Günter Grass’ The Tin Drum 1959.

此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的《铁皮鼓1959》非常相似，《铁皮鼓1959》是一部纪实历史小说。

==5. Coming-of-age and Alienation==

5. 成熟和异化

Abandoning the paradise-like garden in the Red Chamber Dreams is a symbol for leaving the protected childhood and arriving in the complex world of adults. With George Lukács theory of the novel, the protagonist starts to problematize the sense of his life, in the novel, the protagonist’s self permanently struggles with his environment.

抛弃《红楼梦》中天堂般的花园，是离开受保护的童年，进入复杂的成人世界的象征。随着乔治·卢卡奇的小说理论，主人公开始对他的生活感觉产生疑问，在小说中，主人公的自我一直与他的环境作斗争。

However, Cao Xueqin’s message is not simply the one of “Paradise Lost”, instead he himself made the best out of his life. Although being less wealthy than when his family still enjoyed the favour of the emperor, there was a payroll system and a social net intact in Early Qing China, where he received enough income to be independent from his rich relatives, to be selective on accepting jobs, to live a relaxed life in a small house in the nature, spending time with his family and friends, follow his own interests, like reading, writing and drinking wine, making kites for the children and thinking of the disadvantaged.

然而，曹雪芹所传达的信息并不是简单的“失乐园”，相反，他把自己的生活过得很好。虽然比起他的家族享受皇帝的宠爱，他过得没有那么富裕，但清初中国有一套薪俸制度和一张完整的社会网，他获得了足够的收入，可以独立于富贵亲戚，可以有选择性地接受工作，可以在大自然的小房子里过着悠闲的生活，可以与家人和朋友共度时光，可以追随自己的兴趣，例如读书，写作和饮酒，可以为孩子们做风筝，可以为弱势群体着想。

Cao Xueqin was fully aware of his time and China’s cultural achievements, he was familiar with the different levels of society, he was a detailed observer and skilful narrator. He may have conceptualized the ending of the novel as a discussion about the different personalities of the characters in the novel and therefore displaying his reflection about life and his psychological understanding of the diversity of human nature. He was able to grasp the “spirit of time” (Zeitgeist) and with his autobiographical experience create an eternal coming-of-age novel not just for his family, for the Qing-Chinese, for Chinese people, but for mankind.

曹雪芹对自己所处的时代和中国的文化成就了如指掌，他熟悉社会的不同层面，他是一个细致的观察者和娴熟的叙述者。因此，他在小说中对人的不同个性的理解和对小说中人物性格的多样性进行了概念化的探讨。他能够把握“时代精神”，用他的自传体经历，不仅为他的家庭，为清朝的中国人，为中国人民，而且为人类，创作了一部永恒的成人小说。

This tradition of Coming-of-age novels is also a European one, like enlightenment philosopher Voltaire’s novel Candide or Optimism《老实人》shows at the very same time (1759) in Europe. Also Voltaire’s Candide has to leave the luxurious paradise of his childhood and strives for true love, but his main learning is more pessimistic, since Voltaire wrote the novel in opposition to Leibniz, who optimistically looked to China as “the best of all worlds”. Recent research findings show that China had a much larger influence on European enlightenment philosophers and we can be sure, that also Cao Xueqin was aware of some European literary traditions.

这种成熟的传统小说也是一个欧洲人,像启蒙运动哲学家伏尔泰在欧洲同时间出版的的小说《老实人》(1759年)。伏尔泰笔下的老实人不得不离开童年的奢华天堂，为追求真爱而奋斗，但他的主要学习内容却更为悲观，因为伏尔泰的小说与莱布尼茨截然相反，莱布尼茨乐观地认为中国是“所有世界中最好的”。最近的研究发现，中国对欧洲启蒙运动哲学家的影响要大得多，我们可以肯定，曹雪芹对欧洲的一些文学传统也有所了解。

Also the German readership is familiar with the chronological following of the life of the protagonist and his development, the fate of a family over generations, the German readership knows this type of novel as the “Education novel” or “Coming-of-age-novel”. In Germany, the genre of the coming-of-age novel has a long tradition and it is shaped more by single characters, who appear as teachers (Goethe: Wilhelm Meister’s Apprenticeship威廉·麦斯特的学徒岁月 1795-96, Novalis 诺瓦利斯: Heinrich von Ofterdingen 《海因利·封·歐福特丁根》1802).

德国读者对主人公的生平及其发展、家族世代的命运都很熟悉，德国读者把这种类型的小说称为“教育小说”或“成长小说”。在德国,关于成长小说的体裁有着悠久的传统,它的形状更由单个字符,它更多的是被塑造为教师的单个人物(歌德：'Wilhelm Meister’s Apprenticeship威廉·麦斯特的学徒岁月 1795-96, Novalis 诺瓦利斯: Heinrich von Ofterdingen《海因利·封·歐福特丁根》1802)。

Wilhelm Meister, parallely to Jia Baoyu, is struggling with the traditional education, in Wilhelm Meister this is represented with the classics revived in Shakespeare’s dramas. Tradition can give orientation, but the personality of the protagonist needs to develop through emancipation is a wisdom, we can learn from all mentioned novels including the Dreams.

==6. Pornography and True Love, female rivals==

Sexuality is a basic human need and has developed into different shapes in all cultures. The German audience is familiar with erotic topics from the Middle Ages, in which sexuality was stylized. In the “Schwänke” of the 15th century (Wittenwielers Ring), erotic scenes are described sexually explicit.

与贾宝玉一样，威廉·迈斯特也在与传统教育作斗争，在《威廉·迈斯特》中，莎士比亚戏剧中复兴的经典作品代表了这一点。传统可以给予导向，但主人公的个性需要通过解放来发展是一种智慧，我们可以从包括《梦》在内的所有小说中学习。 “6。色情与真爱，女性对手" 性是人类的一种基本需求，在各种文化中形成了不同的形态。德国观众熟悉中世纪的情色话题，在这些话题中，性是程式化的。在15世纪的“Schwanke”(Wittenwielers Ring)中，情色场景被描述为露骨的性。

In the barock literature of the 17th century even the physical act is described extensively.

在17世纪的Barock文学中，甚至对物理行为也进行了广泛的描述。

According to „cumulativity“, every human being is a product of history and literature is based on previous literature, therefore the author of this pager thinks that this background has to be taken into account while translating.

根据“累积性”，每个人都是历史的产物，而文学是基于先前的文献，因此，该传呼机的作者认为翻译时必须考虑这一背景。

The best study on qing passion in the Dreams is the one by Anthony Yu, who understood it as desire and as the central motif of the Dreams. „The centrality of qing in shaping virtually every aspect of The Story of the Stone’s structure and meaning cannot be denied [...].“ (Anthony Yu 2001, 54).

关于梦中关于“情”最好的研究是安东尼·于（Anthony Yu）的研究，他将其理解为欲望和梦的中心主题。 “清香在塑造《石头的故事》的结构和意义的几乎每个方面的中心作用都不能否认。”（Anthony Yu 2001，54）。

In the framework story of the Dreams, the narrator consciously takes a stand against low-action and stereotypical pornographic literature as well as against the widespread romance novels (with the classic roles of the beautiful, talented woman and the poor scholar who finally achieves a respected position and prosperity by passing a civil service exam).

在《梦》的框架故事中，叙述者有意识地反对低俗的动作和陈规定型的色情文学，反对流传甚广的浪漫小说（以美丽的才女和通过公务员制度最终获得受人尊敬的地位的穷困书生为经典角色）。

In chapter 1 he says: ”of the true feelings of young people [...] nobody has reported about so far.”

在第一章中，他说：“关于年轻人的真实感受，[……]到目前为止还没有人报道过。”

Erotic scenes are described in a decent and associative way (“Game of clouds and rain”), while displaying another quality in its openness e.g. towards bisexuality.

情色场景被描述成一个体面和联想的方式（“云和雨的游戏”），同时显示了另一个开放性的性质，例如对双性恋。

The 'Red Chamber Dream' narrates the story of unfortunate lovers. Unfortunate lovers also in the West have a literary tradition, they constitute an archetype, such as Hero and Leander, Pyramus and Thisbe, Tristan and Isolde, Flore and Blanscheflur as well as Troilus and Cressida, the latter being considered the model for Arthur Brookes, who wrote Romeo and Juliet in 1562 and thus directly influenced Shakespeare.

《红楼梦》讲述了一对不幸的恋人的故事。不幸的恋人也有西方文学的传统,他们构成一个原型,如英雄和利安得、皮拉摩斯和提斯柏,特里斯坦与伊索尔德,凝花和Blanscheflur特洛伊罗斯和克雷西达,后者被认为是阿瑟·布鲁克斯的模型,他在1562年写了《罗密欧与朱丽叶》,从而直接影响了莎士比亚。玛丽安·加利克认为《红楼梦》和《浮士德》都是吸引我们的永恒女性的中心主题，顾城则称其为“永恒的处女”。

While Marián Galik saw as the central topic of both, the Dream and Faust, the eternal feminine, which draws us on high, Gu Cheng called it the “eternal virgine”.

玛丽安·加利克（Mariann Galik）认为《梦》和《浮士德》都是吸引我们的永恒女性的中心主题，顾城则称其为“永恒的处女”。

In Goethe’s coming-of-age novel Wilhelm Meisters Wanderjahre, we find a similar motif of female rivals, in the Keller 凯勒 The Green Henry 《绿衣亨利》1855, the hero turns away from an emphatically sexually designed figure and turns to the 'real' woman. In Jane Austen’s Pride and Prejudice 1813 Elizabeth and Lin Daiyu are similar, e.g. they both strive for real love (Zhuang 2011).

在歌德的成长小说Wilhelm Meisters Wanderjahre中，我们发现了类似的女性竞争主题，在凯勒The Green Henry（《绿衣亨利》1855）中，男主人公父亲早亡，母亲养育其成人。在简-奥斯汀的Pride and Prejudice（《傲慢与偏见》1813）中，伊丽莎白和林黛玉是相似的，比如她们都追求真爱（庄2011）。

==7. Feudal society and slavery==

7. 封建社会和奴隶

A widespread interpretation is that Jia Baoyu’s equal treatment of family members and slaves would be a manifesto to free the slaves. I also do not share this interpretation, since Aristotle, when he demanded democracy, would exclude slaves from the right to vote. So we cannot use modern concepts to judge on the past. In my understanding, Jia Baoyu was not fighting inequality, but looked at the people as humans and individuals.

人们普遍认为贾宝玉对待家庭成员和奴隶的平等对待是解放奴隶的宣言。我不同意这种解释，因为亚里士多德吁民主时，会将奴隶从投票权中剔除。所以我们不能用现代观点评判古人。我认为，贾宝玉并不是在为不平等而做斗争，而是将人区分为人或是个体。

Also the understanding of the servants as slaves does not match the description in the Dream, since some servants had servants themselves, the family took care after they left the Jia family to find a match for them and Jia Zheng refers to his daughter Yingchun as „yatou 丫头“, so it is inappropriate to translate this expression with slave. Therefore, the translator preferred “servant” over “slave” in the translation.

而且把仆人理解为奴隶与《红楼梦》中的描写不符，因为有些仆人自己还有仆人，贾府会在她们离府的时候为她们寻一门亲事，作为贾府对她们的照料；贾政也把自己的女儿迎春喊作 “丫头”，所以把这些翻译成奴隶是不合适的。因此英文翻译中采用“servant”会比“slave”更为合适。

Mo Yan in his speech at the Frankfurt Bookfair in 2009, when China was the guest of honor, draws the (similarly) parallel between the Dream and Goethe’s Sorrows of the Young Werther, that both expressed the wish to abandon feudal society. My own impression is that both do not express this wish, but that this is a later concept and interpretation and we should not apply this to judge the past.

2009年，莫言代表中国作为主宾国参加法兰克福书展时，在演讲中把《红楼梦》和歌德的《少年维特之哀》画上了约等号，表达了抛弃封建社会的愿望。我自己的感觉是，两者都没有表达这个愿望，但这是后来的概念和解释，我们不应该以此来判断过去。

==8. Tragedy of all tragedies==

8.最悲剧的悲剧

Aristotle explained in On the Tragedy (Poetics VI), that tragedies move people more than comedies because they “imitate [mimēsis] an action that is serious, complete, and of a certain magnitude” (Aristotle 1971, 51), This high esteem of the tragedy in Europe is partly ascribed to the loss of Aristotle’s work On the Comedy.

亚里士多德在《悲剧论》（诗学VI）中解释道，悲剧之所以比戏剧更加动人，是因为它们“模仿（mimēsis）一种严肃、完整且具有一定规模的行动”（Aristotle 1971，51）。悲剧在欧洲拥有崇高地位部分归因于亚里士多德的作品《论喜剧》的失传。

While Europe has the Hamlet as its tragedy of all tragedies, the lack of tragic literature in Chinese literary tradition has long been lamented. Wang Guowei sees the Dream as "tragedy of all tragedies". To Wang Guowei the suffering of Faust and Jia Baoyu is central in the novels. However, many scholars contest that Faustianism is central for Chinese culture.

欧洲悲剧中以《哈姆雷特》为悲剧，而中国文学传统中悲剧文学的缺失，长期以来被人们所惋惜。王国维认为《梦》是“所有悲剧中的悲剧”。对王国维来说，浮士德和贾宝玉的苦难是小说的中心。然而，许多学者认为浮士德主义是中国文化的核心。

In 18th century Europe, we saw a new development in the genre of the drama, to establish a “bourgeois tragedy”.

在18世纪的欧洲，我们看到了戏剧体裁的新发展，确立了“资产阶级悲剧”。

It developed as an emancipatory movement in the 18th century in London, Paris and Germany, and demonstrated that tragedy was not reserved to rulers, but was also imagineable for lower noblemen and ordinary citizens. The Dream at the same time as the bourgeois tragedy in Europe shows a tragic story of a mid-level noble family which loses its titles and privileges.

它作为一场解放运动在18世纪的伦敦、巴黎和德国发展起来，并证明了悲剧并非只发生在统治者身上，也可能发生在下层贵族和普通公民身上。《梦》与欧洲资产阶级悲剧同时上演，讲述的是一个中层贵族家庭失去头衔和特权的悲剧故事。

==9. “Non-Binary” Novels==

9. “非二元”小说

One of the things attracting Western readers is the adorable but mysterious protagonist Jia Baoyu. With his open bisexual orientation and his interest in his mates regardless of their social status, he appears “modern” or at least displaced in time. His struggle with traditional learning makes him appear sympathetic, his long states of rapture out of the world give him both the aura of a timeless character and of mystery.

一个吸引西方读者的东西是可爱而神秘的主人公贾宝玉。由于他开放的双性恋倾向和他对伴侣的兴趣，不管他们的社会地位如何，他显得“现代”或至少在时间上流离失所。他与传统学习的斗争使他显得富有同情心，他从世界上长期的狂喜给了他永恒的性格和神秘的气息。

With the bisexual orientation of the Dreams’ protagonist, the novel appears non-binary. According to German sinologist Karl-Heinz Pohl (2018), binaries are just superficial, ultimately decisive is the Heart Sutra. Today, the novel is listed among the genre of non-binary literature (see e.g. the bibliographical list on https://www.goodreads.com/list/tag/non-binary), in which contrasts are dissolved deconstructivistically.

随着梦中主人公的双性取向，小说呈现出非二元性。德国汉学家卜松山(2018)认为，二进制只是表面现象，最终起决定性作用的是“心经”。今天，这部小说被列为非二元文学的一个流派（参见https://www.goodreads.com/list/tag/non-binary)，其中的反差被解构主义地化解了。

==10. Foreign Cultures in the Red Chamber Dreams==

10.红楼梦中的异邦文化

Foreign Cultures frequently appear in the Dreams in all kinds of varieties, like exoticism with the many objects in the household and presented to the household as novelties, especially the blond girl of the same age as Baoyu referred to in person (combining different origins and cultures, including European, Japanese, Chinese) or several times on paintings, one time shown with wings as an angel.

红楼梦中经常出现各种各样的异邦文化元素，例如许多贾府物品带有异国情调，并是以新奇的形式呈现给贾府的，尤其是其中提到的与宝玉同龄的金发女孩（结合了不同的来历和文化，包括欧洲，日本，中国），金发女孩也多次在绘画中出现，有一次是以带翅膀的天使的形象出现。

The playful combination of different traditions we can see also when a religious dress is described, which carries characteristics of different religions. Similarly, the Daoist monk and the Confucian priest appear together. Cao Xueqin wanted to show the richness and diversity, also with the many topics and societal levels of the novel. Even a variety of Christian motifs can be found, like when Jia Baoyu is not recognized by his father in chapter 120 and when he disappears, all parallel to Jesus Christ.

宗教服饰带有不同宗教的特点，在描述一种宗教服饰时，我们也能体味不同宗教传统的玩味结合。同样，道士和儒士也可一起出现。曹雪芹想表现出小说的丰富性和多样性，同时也要展现出小说的众多主题和社会层次。在书中甚至可以找到各种基督教的主题，比如第120章贾宝玉不被父亲认可，以及贾宝玉消失的时候，这些都与耶稣基督平行。

The variety of cultures is paralleled with the variety of elements of different dynasties, which makes it timeless and therefore even more a masterpiece of Chinese art and a masterpiece of human art. Therefore I would like to nominate the Red Chamber Dreams as “World Documentary Heritage”.

文化的多样性与不同朝代的元素多样性相辅相成，这种多样性便其变得永恒，甚至因此而成为中国艺术杰作和人类艺术杰作。因此，我想提名《红楼梦》为“世界纪录片遗产”。

==References 参考文献==

*Anthony, C. Yu. (2001). Rereading the Stone: Desire and the Making of Fiction in Dream of the Red Chamber. Princeton University Press.
*Aristotle. (1971). Poetics. Trans. S. H. Butcher. Ed. Hazard Adams. Critical Theory since Plato. ew York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 48-66.
*Woesler, Martin, ed., Cao Xueqin, Gao E et al. (2016). Der Traum der Roten Kammer oder Die Geschichte vom Stein [Red Chamber Dreams or The Story of the Stone], Peking: Foreign Languages Press, ISBN 9787119094120, 4813 pages, 6 vols., hardcover, transl. by Rainer Schwarz and Martin Woesler; Chinese-German bilingual edition
*Woesler, Martin. (2011). “Being Explicit About the Implicit – John Minford’s Translation of the last Forty Chapters of The Story of the Stone with a Field Study on two Sexually Arousing Scenes”. Hong lou meng xue kan 6: 274-289
*Woesler, Martin. (2010). “ ’To Amuse the Beaux and Belles’ The Early Western Reception of the Hongloumeng”. Journal of Sino-Western Communications 2 (2010.12) 2:81-107
*Zhuang, Xiuhua. (2011). Self, Ideal and Salvation: A Comparative Study of Jane Austen’s Elizabeth and Cao Xueqin’s Lin Daiyu. Journal of Language Teaching and Research, Vol. 2, No. 2, pp. 420-423, March 2011. Fulltext: http://www.academypublication.com/issues/past/jltr/vol02/02/19.pdf.

2021 Interview with Duan Yuanyuan

2021-03-04T13:38:18Z

Bebery: /* 7 传播中华文化 */

'''访谈提纲 Interview with Martin Woesler by Duan Yuanyuan'''

=1 让·莫内讲席教授=
吴教授您好，非常感谢您拨冗接受我的访谈！首先恭喜您获得“让·莫内讲席教授”荣誉称号，此地位是欧盟对从事欧洲一体化教学与研究学者的最高学术承认！您真可谓是一位欧盟的学术大使！据悉，该项目申请难度颇大，中国今年只有湖南师范大学、四川大学和中国政法大学三所大学获得资助。您可否借此次获奖的机缘，说明你眼中中欧的学术交流呢？
不客气！的确，我把自己看作是中欧之间的“文化大使”，把这次获得“让·莫内讲席教授”称号看作是在华工作、学习、生活近三十年的一个阶段性总结。许多西方人认为在华生活是一个极大的挑战，对此我并不否认，但是挑战之余，我还从中看到了变革[What kind of transformation are we talking about here? ]的必要性，而且变革只有通过接触和交流才能实现。中国应该有更多的欧洲学者，中国也应该成为德国每一所大学亟需讨论的议题。
You're welcome! Indeed, I regard myself as a "cultural ambassador" between China and Europe, and I regard winning the title of "Professor Jean Monnet Lecture" as a phased summary of nearly 30 years of work, study and life in China. Many Westerners think that living in China is a great challenge, which I don't deny, but besides the challenge, I also see the necessity of change, and change can only be realized through contact and communication. There should be more European scholars in China, and China should also become an urgent topic for every German university to discuss.
欧盟委员会2020年在全球范围内授予了70个让·莫内教席，且每所大学最多可获一个名额。中国境内大学上次获得还是在2016年。“让·莫内讲席教授”传统上主要关注欧盟相关研究。现在欧盟委员会把这个奖项授予在中国任教的德国汉学家，这说明欧盟委员会已经认识到批判性地对比其它国家和欧盟发展模式的重要性。
In 2020, the European Commission awarded 70 Jean Monnet chairs worldwide, and each university can get up to one place. The last time universities in China won it was in 2016. Traditionally, "Professor Jean Monnet" mainly focuses on EU-related research. Now the European Commission has awarded this award to German sinologists who teach in China, which shows that the European Commission has realized the importance of critically comparing the development models of other countries with those of the European Union.
我不想把欧盟在中国的表现作为中国的反面典型，而是用批判性的眼光看待。中国学生正是通过批判性思维树立价值观。我曾做过调查，结果显示，很多中国学生认为欧盟的政治一体化还没有成功，英国脱欧反映了欧盟的软弱，但我想传达的知识是，欧盟已经在运作了，只是方式不同而已：即追求的不是快速而精干的决策过程，而是等待、讨论、参与和妥协。
I don't want to take the EU's performance in China as a negative example of China, but look at it critically. It is through critical thinking that Chinese students establish values. I have done a survey, and the results show that many Chinese students think that the political integration of the EU has not been successful, and Brexit reflects the weakness of the EU, but the knowledge I want to convey is that the EU is already in operation, only in different ways: it is not a fast and lean decision-making process, but waiting, discussing, participating and compromising.
同时，英国脱欧正表明欧盟每个成员都有随时离开的自由，这被视为一种成就。所以欧洲未必比中国差，只是不同而已。而当中国学生乐于接受不同的时候，他们的个性就会得到发展，成熟起来，适合国际就业市场。因此，我很鼓励学生去欧洲交换学习一两个学期。
At the same time, Brexit shows that every EU member has the freedom to leave at any time, which is regarded as an achievement. Therefore, Europe is not necessarily worse than China, it is just different. When Chinese students are willing to accept differences, their personalities will develop and mature, which is suitable for the international job market. Therefore, I encourage students to go to Europe for exchange study for one or two semesters.
申请“让·莫内讲席”项目时，我就在材料中表明该项目的落脚点在于中国和欧洲的比较，课题还囊括不同的教育体系、社会各领域的数字化以及对数据隐私的保护。通过该项目，我会推荐几名德国同事来中国短期或者长期工作，也会推荐中国同事去欧洲短期访学。并针对该项目，设置课程专题对比中欧近来的对外政策，以期激励中国塑造更加完整的海外形象。
When applying for the "Jean Monnet Lecture" project, I indicated in the materials that the foothold of the project lies in the comparison between China and Europe, and the topic also includes different education systems, digitalization in various fields of society and protection of data privacy. Through this project, I will recommend several German colleagues to work in China for a short or long time, and I will also recommend Chinese colleagues to visit Europe for a short time. In view of this project, a course topic is set up to compare the recent foreign policies of China and Europe, in order to encourage China to shape a more complete overseas image.

=2 《红楼梦》首次全译本=
2.您的代表作是《红楼梦》德语全译本，您是如何走上汉学之路的呢？可否谈谈与史华慈合译《红楼梦》的初衷？How did you begin to learn Chinese and how to stick to the path of sinology for so many years? Why did you choose to translate 红楼梦？
《红楼梦》的意义大于个人，是一件永恒的艺术品，应该提升到“世界遗产”的地位。目前，欧洲只有半数国家出版《红楼梦》译本。1989年我刚上大学的时候，德文版《红楼梦》也只有弗兰茨-库恩的节译本，共40章，只有原文体量的三分之一。与库恩的其他中国优秀小说译本在语言上几乎没有差别，带有浓厚的德国地方色彩。我也注意到了译文的不足之处。他把《红楼梦》书名中的“楼”翻译成“城堡”。这种译法也许比较适合欧洲读者的阅读口味，但就中国文化、中国历史、中国环境而言，我认为不太准确。这些不足之处也可解释为什么大卫-霍克斯和约翰-闵福德的译本在德国广受欢迎。
A Dream of Red Mansions is more meaningful than an individual. It is an eternal work of art and should be promoted to the status of "World Heritage". At present, only half of European countries have translated a Dream of Red Mansions. When I first went to college in 1989, the German version of a Dream of Red Mansions was only a flantz-Kuhn excerpt, with a total of 40 chapters, only one third of the original volume. There is almost no difference in language with Kuhn's other excellent Chinese novel translations, with strong German local color. I also noticed the shortcomings of the translation. He translated "Lou" in the title of A Dream of Red Mansions into "Castle". This translation may be more suitable for European readers, but I don't think it is accurate in terms of Chinese culture, Chinese history and Chinese environment. These shortcomings can also explain why the translations of David Hawkes and John Minford are so popular in Germany.
XX年/契机我开始重新翻译《红楼梦》。也是通过这个项目，我申请到了北京大学德意志学术交流中心（Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst，简称DAAD）奖学金。因此我也得以在北京大学学习X个月。[When did you study in Peking University? And for how long?]当时的选拔委员会主席是沃尔夫冈·顾彬（Wolfgang Kubin，中文名顾彬），他后来成为我的博士生导师之一。随后在北京，我多次参观了红楼梦研究所。参观之时张#送给我一本《红楼梦》辞典。后来回到德国，我与马汉茂（Helmut Martin）合作。从他那里我了解到，史华慈（Rainer Schwarz）已经将小说前80章翻译出来，并将自己的译文交给他出版，马汉茂让我审阅了史华兹的译本。不过译文暂未达到出版质量，[Can you give more details of why it can not be published yet? ]还需修订。
XX Year/Opportunity I began to retranslate A Dream of Red Mansions. It was also through this project that I applied for a scholarship from Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst (DAAD) of Peking University. So I was able to study at Peking University for X months. At that time, the chairman of the selection committee was Wolfgang Kubin (Chinese name Gu Bin), who later became one of my doctoral supervisors. Later in Beijing, I visited the Dream of Red Mansions Research Institute many times. During the visit, Zhang # gave me a dictionary of a Dream of Red Mansions. Later, when I returned to Germany, I cooperated with Helmut Martin. I learned from him that Rainer Schwarz had translated the first 80 chapters of the novel and gave him his own translation for publication. Ma Hanmao asked me to review Schwartz's translation. However, the translation has not yet reached the publishing quality and needs to be revised.
这次翻译尝试于我而言具有重大意义，我认为修改史华兹的译本使其达到出版水平比自己独立完成120章的翻译更重要。我花了几年时间修订史华兹的译文，随后自己翻译了后40回。然后按照前80回的风格重新修改我翻译的后40回，其中人名的翻译统一采用正式的拼音系统及其拼写方法，且并非采用标准的汉语拼音，而是按照德语书写方式，这样做的目的是尽可能地吸引更多读者的关注，且避免读者出现行文风格“跳脱”感受。
This translation attempt is of great significance to me. I think it is more important to revise Schwartz's translation to the publishing level than to complete the translation of 120 chapters independently. It took me several years to revise Schwartz's translation, and then I translated the last 40 times myself. Then I revised the last 40 times of my translation according to the style of the first 80 times, Among them, the translation of names adopts the formal Pinyin system and its spelling method, and does not adopt the standard Chinese Pinyin, but according to the German writing method. The purpose of this is to attract more readers' attention as much as possible, and to avoid readers' feeling of "jumping" in writing style.
现在，读者可获得完整、精细的译本，译本必要处附有注释。之后在XX年X月[When will the fifth edition be published? ]会出版第五版，该版本会根据读者意见和自己对原文的重新理解再进行改进。比如在我未出版的120章全译本中，很多人名的翻译也考虑到了名字的中文含义。[What amendments will you make in the fifth edition of the Chamber? Could you please list some? ]
Now, readers can get a complete and detailed translation, with notes where necessary. Then [when will the fifth edition be published? ] will publish the fifth edition, which will be improved according to readers' opinions and their own re-understanding of the original text. For example, in my unpublished full translation of 120 chapters, the translation of many names also takes into account the Chinese meaning of names. [What amendments will you make in the fifth edition of the Chamber? Could you please list some? ]

=3 欧洲红学=
3.您曾在国内红学权威刊物《红楼梦学刊》上发表过两篇文章，以德国人的视角叙述西方对《红楼梦》的了解，并介绍德译本情况以及西方学者的理解及评价。从这两篇文章可以看出，《红楼梦》在西方的传播已变换形式，由文本本身的传播向舞台剧等多模态形态发展。请问现今欧洲的红学研究、传播现状如何？您认为《红楼梦》对国内外读者有何影响？
小说是“时代精神”的体现。《红楼梦》于1791年首次出版，其创作背景是中国少数民族之一的满族统治下的清朝，曹家或受康熙宠信或备受雍正冷落以致抄家没落。囿于时代背景，作者在当时无法公开批判帝制皇权，但在小说中，他在家庭日益衰败（从事道教、闲暇、诗歌创作、艺术和音乐，而不是为了能够谋生而学习）和自己没有实现作为家族继承人的期望中，寻求被迫害的根源。这种对名家望族没落之路的描写使我们想起了契诃夫的小说。此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的纪实性历史小说《铁皮鼓》(1959年)非常相似。最值得一提的是《红楼梦》和托马斯·曼的《布登勃洛克一家》（1901年）。两部小说都描写了出生富贵的年轻一代人的颓废、没落、溃散，以及一个家族的社会地位和经济状况的逐渐没落与覆灭。托马斯·曼的小说是以资产阶级社会的巨大变革为背景，而曹雪芹的作品则选取了某个朝代的更迭时期作为时代背景，在其中帝王利益与家族利益发生了冲突! 有趣的是，两部作品中的主要角色都挑选了英年早逝的类似人物。《红楼梦》里林黛玉为情而亡，秦可卿因乱伦自尽，贾元春和妙玉也是突然死亡。在《布登勃洛克一家》里克拉拉在婚后不久即死于脑结核，托马斯在牙科手术后去世，汉诺死于伤寒。两部作品都在结构和主题上运用了影射等大量的艺术手法，以丰富的故事进展描绘出一幅衰败的景象。因此，这种并行发展令人惊讶，很难说《布登勃洛克一家》的创作没受到《红楼梦》的影响。
The novel is the embodiment of "the spirit of the times". A Dream of Red Mansions was first published in 1791. Its creation background was the Qing Dynasty under the rule of Manchu, one of China's ethnic minorities. The Cao family was either favored by Kangxi or neglected by Yongzheng, resulting in the decline of property ownership. Constrained by the background of the times, the author could not publicly criticize the imperial power at that time, but in the novel, he sought the root of persecution in the declining family (engaged in Taoism, leisure, poetry creation, art and music, instead of studying in order to make a living) and his failure to realize his expectation of being the heir of the family. This decadent description of declining families reminds us of Chekhov's novels. In addition, the detailed description of the life of all social strata in the early Qing Dynasty in A Dream of Red Mansions is very similar to Gunter Grass's documentary historical novel Tin Drum (1959). The most noteworthy ones are A Dream of Red Mansions and Thomas Mann's Budenbrock Family (1901). Both novels describe the decadence, decline and collapse of the wealthy young generation, as well as the gradual decline and collapse of a family's social status and economic situation. Thomas Mann's novels are set against the background of great changes in bourgeois society, while Cao Xueqin's works choose the change period of a certain dynasty as the background of the times, in which the interests of emperors and families conflict! Interestingly, the main characters in the two works have chosen similar characters who died young. In a Dream of Red Mansions, Lin Daiyu died of love, Qin Keqing committed suicide due to incest, and Jia Yuanchun and Miaoyu also died suddenly. In the Budenbrock Family, Clara died of brain tuberculosis shortly after marriage, Thomas died after dental surgery, and Hanno died of typhoid fever. Both works use a lot of artistic techniques such as innuendo in structure and theme, and depict a declining scene with rich story progress. Therefore, this parallel development is surprising. It is hard to say that the creation of the Budenbroc Family was not influenced by a Dream of Red Mansions.

4.您曾在欧洲多所学校任教，请问现今欧洲汉学的研究状况如何？
You have taught in many European schools. What is the current research status of Sinology in Europe?

=5 为何从古典文学的翻译转向中国现当代文学的翻译？=
除了《红楼梦》这一代表译作之外，您还翻译了包括鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱锺书、韩少功、贾平凹等在内的一批著名作家的优秀作品。可否谈谈为什么选择不同时代作家的作品？您又是如何再现他们不同的写作风格？[This question intends to know about why you choose to translate works of those writers. Is it because of personal interests or the publisher asking you to do so?
I think the section of Xu Zechen serves as good interview answers. As Chinese readers, we are desperate to know what things are like from Westerners’ perspective. ]
为何从古典文学的翻译转向中国现当代文学的翻译？
Why did you shift from the translation of classical literature to the translation of modern and contemporary Chinese literature?
不同时代的作品反映出不同的时代背景，这些作品对我个人而言是很好的窗口，可以窥探不同时期中国的社会面貌，还可与同期的欧洲文学进行比较。贾平凹作为20世纪80年代以来中国最伟大的作家之一，英译本很少。究其原因，首先在于他的作品植根于山西农村，带有浓重的地域风俗习惯。首先读懂原文对译者来说就是一项挑战，更不用提在译入语中找到对应的表达。我在翻译贾平凹的XX中就遇到了这个问题。。。。。。。。[Can you list some difficulties when translating Jia Pingwa’s or any other author’s works? We like the details.]
The works of different times reflect different backgrounds of the times. These works are a good window for me personally. I can spy on the social outlook of China in different periods and compare them with European literature in the same period. Jia Pingwa, as one of the greatest writers in China since 1980s, has few English versions. The reason lies in the fact that his works are rooted in Shanxi rural areas and have strong regional customs. It is a challenge for translators to understand the original text first, not to mention finding the corresponding expression in the target language. I encountered this problem in translating Jia Pingwa's XX. . . . . . . .
对于译者来说，翻译不同作者的作品时面对的翻译难点不同。而不同的译者有着不同的处理方式，这也能解释为何同一部作品有几个翻译版本，且翻译策略各有不同。我深知译者的文化背景对译本翻译策略的选择有很大影响，所以有些作品即便存在译本，我还是选择重新翻译。从鲁迅的短篇小说中，我们可以读出作者内心的矛盾：文学能改变世界吗？难道一定要身体力行才能改变世界吗？难道连唤醒那些像阿Q一样任由自己被牵着走，任人宰割的昏昏欲睡的同胞们也能做到吗？当无法改变自己和社会的命运时，唤醒他们还有什么用呢？作为译者，我们如何再现这种矛盾心理，如何处理鲁迅在翻译中有些古板的早期白话，如何与他对日常政治事件的论述。这些都是翻译中必不可免的问题。目前已有的鲁迅作品德译本在这些方面的处理方式多样。巴金在受到批评后修改了三部曲之一的《家》，删除了缠足现象。在翻译这部作品的过程中，译者必须决定是翻译原版还是删减后的版本。
For translators, translation difficulties are different when translating works of different authors. Different translators have different ways of dealing with it, which can explain why there are several translated versions of the same work and the translation strategies are different. I know that the translator's cultural background has a great influence on the choice of translation strategies, so I choose to retranslate some works even if there are translations. From Lu Xun's short stories, we can read the author's inner contradiction: Can literature change the world? Do you have to practice to change the world? Can we even wake up those sleepy compatriots who let themselves be led and slaughtered like Ah Q? What's the use of awakening them when they can't change their own destiny and that of society? As translators, how do we reproduce this ambivalence, how do we deal with Lu Xun's rigid early vernacular in translation, and how do we communicate with his exposition of daily political events? These are all inevitable problems in translation. At present, the existing German versions of Lu Xun's works deal with these aspects in various ways. After being criticized, Ba Jin revised Home, one of the trilogy, and deleted foot binding. In the process of translating this work, the translator must decide whether to translate the original version or the abridged version.
我个人很喜欢徐则臣的作品。在2009年（北上2015年才出版）[Is this book called <北上>？]的法兰克福书展上，他的故事《北上》受到广泛好评。事实上，他的生活经历与我有些重叠部分。我们都在北京大学学习过，只不过他比我早入学一点（多久）。当时校园里有一种亚文化，博士生们住在餐厅旁边的闲置房间里，因为他们对大学里的人、办事流程了如指掌，而且在独立的诗歌和艺术界也有联系，所以每逢有聚会，他们都很抢手，大家竞相邀请他们参加聚会。那时的大学涌现着一股乐观主义的精神，起初门外涌现出私营商业市场，后来校园里传出“开公司”的口号。那时，毕业生不愿毕业就被分入特定的工作岗位，身上的自由和责任感促使他们闯一闯这个世界。故事里拿着盗版产品的街边小贩和软件开发产品的学生先锋也是这幅画的一部分。徐则臣将这种气氛真实地捕捉到，令人信服。他笔下的人物在我们心上扎根，爱上他们，学会在生活中打拼。也是这种情感体验上的共鸣促使我翻译《北上》这部作品。
Personally, I like Xu Zechen's works very much. At the Frankfurt Book Fair in 2009 (published in 2015), his story "Going North" was widely praised. In fact, his life experience overlaps with mine. We all studied at Peking University, but he entered school a little earlier than me. At that time, there was a subculture on campus. Doctoral students lived in idle rooms next to restaurants. Because they knew the people and procedures in the university like the back of their hand, and they also had contacts in independent poetry and art circles, they were very popular whenever there was a party, and everyone invited them to attend the party. At that time, there was a spirit of optimism in universities. At first, private commercial markets emerged outside the doors. Later, the slogan of "starting a company" came out on campus. At that time, graduates were assigned to specific jobs without graduating, and their freedom and sense of responsibility prompted them to enter the world. Street vendors with pirated products and student pioneers with software development products in the story are also part of this painting. Xu Zechen captured this atmosphere truly and convincingly. His characters take root in our hearts, fall in love with them and learn to work hard in life. It is also this resonance in emotional experience that prompted me to translate the work "North".

=6 跨文化身份=
6. 作为汉学家和翻译家，您的跨文化身份让你置身于东西方文明之间。当您从欧洲文化和文学背景来到中国的文化和文学背景中，在两种迥异的语言之间进行转换，是否感到自己的思维方式和行文风格发生了些许改变？[This question asks you whether living in China for almost eight years affects your translating ideologies? Is there any difference if you only learned Chinese but never lived in China for such a long time? ]

=7 中西合璧=
有人认为中华文化走出去最好的译介模式是“中西合璧”，如葛浩文和林丽君的译作在国内外产生了较大影响。您对此有何看法？[I think this answer is rather insufficient. ]
什么是理想的译者？韦努蒂认为译者应该是隐身的，看不见的。如果读者没有注意到所读文本是一个译本，那么译者就达到了完美的境界。我认为，原语文化的译者在理解原文上的确更占优势，但是在传达上就不如来自目标语文化的译者，只有这样的译者才能向目标读者传达想要传达的形象。已经掌握了两种文化和语言的人来做译者是最合适不过的。当然，如果译者本身就是作家就更好了，这样翻译出来的译文想必更贴近原作。
What is an ideal translator? Venuti believes that translators should be invisible and invisible. If the reader doesn't notice that the text he reads is a translation, then the translator has reached a perfect state. In my opinion, the translator of the source language culture does have an advantage in understanding the original text, but he is not as good as the translator from the target language culture in conveying it. Only in this way can the translator convey the image he wants to convey to the target readers. People who have mastered both cultures and languages are the most suitable translators. Of course, it would be better if the translator himself was a writer, so the translated version must be closer to the original.
译文总是一种新的创造，它在文字上不能再模仿原文，而在功能、效果等方面却可以再现原文的特点，所以葛浩文和林丽君这样的“中西合璧”的组合在翻译极具中国特色的作品时应该会比较合适。
Translation is always a new creation. It can no longer imitate the original text in words, but can reproduce the characteristics of the original text in terms of function and effect. Therefore, the combination of "Chinese and Western combination" such as Ge Haowen and Lin Lijun should be more appropriate when translating works with Chinese characteristics.

=8 摆渡人=
您自1990年代来华留学，在华生活多年。作为中西文化的“摆渡人”，您是如何坚持翻译中国经典著作的？您对中德文化交流的未来发展前景有何预见？是否可以给年青一代的汉学家、翻译家提出一些建议？

Sie kamen in den 1990er Jahren zum Studium nach China und leben seit vielen Jahren in China. Wie sind Sie als "Fährmann" zwischen der chinesischen und der westlichen Kultur dazu gekommen, chinesische Klassiker zu übersetzen? Wie sehen Sie die zukünftige Entwicklung des Kulturaustausches zwischen Deutschland und China? Haben Sie einen Rat für die jüngere Generation von Sinologen und Übersetzern?

Als Student war ich erschüttert und verärgert über die Tatsache, dass meine chinesischen Kommilitoninnen und Kommilitonen Goethe, Shakespeare und Heine kannten, aber im Westen kaum jemand Qu Yuan, Li Taibo, Su Dongpo oder Cao Xueqin kannte. Auch wenn im Westen die Übersetzungstätigkeit keine so hohe Anerkennung findet wie wissenschaftliche Forschung über Literatur, sah ich es doch als eine Lebensaufgabe an, mehr Werke der chinesischen Literatur, insbesondere Meisterwerke und Klassiker, ins Deutsche zu übersetzen. Auch habe ich gezielt die junge Generation der Studienabsolventinnen und -absolventen angesprochen und sie für Übersetzungsprojekte gewonnen.

As a student, I was shocked and angered by the fact that my Chinese fellow students knew Goethe, Shakespeare and Heine, but hardly anyone in the West knew Qu Yuan, Li Taibo, Su Dongpo or Cao Xueqin. Even though translation work is not as highly recognized in the West as scholarly research on literature, I saw it as a life's work to translate more works of Chinese literature, especially masterpieces and classics, into German. I also specifically targeted the younger generation of graduate students and recruited them for translation projects.

在学生时代，我对中国同学知道歌德、莎士比亚、海涅，而西方几乎没有人知道屈原、李泰波、苏东坡、曹雪芹感到震惊和烦恼。尽管翻译工作在西方不像文学学术研究那样受到高度重视，但我把把更多的中国文学作品，特别是名著和经典作品翻译成德文看作是毕生的事业。我还专门针对年轻一代的毕业生，招聘他们参与翻译项目。

Natürlich ist dies vom Charakter her eine dienende Aufgabe, eine Dienstleistung. Aber ohne diese Dienstleistung kann Forschung nicht entstehen. Es tut der deutschen Kultur gut, etwas mehr von der chinesischen Kultur zu erfahren. Und die deutsche Bevölkerung, die in der Regel kein Chinesisch versteht, kann ihren ersten Zugang durch Übersetzungen erhalten. Für die professionelle Beschäftigung mit chinesischer Literatur ist dann natürlich der Erwerb chinesischer Sprachkenntnisse zu empfehlen, da das Lesen des Originals immer authentischer ist als das Lesen der Übersetzung.

Of course, in character this is a serving task, a service. But without this service, research cannot emerge. It is good for German culture to learn a little more about Chinese culture. And the German population, which usually does not understand Chinese, can get its first access through translations. For the professional study of Chinese literature, the acquisition of Chinese language skills is then of course recommended, since reading the original is always more authentic than reading the translation.

当然，就其特点而言，这是一个服务性的任务，是一种服务。但如果没有这种服务，研究就无法发展。多了解一下中国文化，对德国文化有好处。而德国民众通常不懂中文，他们可以通过翻译获得第一手资料。那么，对于专业从事中国文学创作的人来说，当然建议掌握汉语能力，因为读原著永远比读译著更真实。

Das Bild des Fährmanns in der Frage ist ein gutes Bild, es ist auch typisches Motiv der Weltliteratur. Es gibt Fährmänner in vielen alten Kulturen, da die Menschen entlang von Flüssen wanderten und die Flüsse nicht immer so seicht waren, dass man über eine Furt hinüberkam. Das Bild von Fährmännern war traditionell positiv, sie waren in Europa auch sprichwörtlich bekannte gute Zuhörer.

The image of the ferryman in the question is a good image, it is also typical motif of world literature. There are ferrymen in many ancient cultures because people migrated along rivers and rivers were not always shallow enough to cross over a ford. The image of ferrymen was traditionally positive, they were also proverbially known good listeners in Europe.

题中的摆渡人形象很好，这也是世界文学中的典型主题。很多古代文化中都有摆渡人，因为人们在河边游荡，河水不一定都很浅，不一定能渡过一个渡口。摆渡人的形象历来是正面的，他们在欧洲也是俗称的好听话。

In der Literatur berichtet schon vor fast 5000 Jahren (2600 v. Chr.) der Gilgamesh-Epos vom Fährmann Ur-šanabi, der den König über die Wasser des Todes bringt. Dem Fährmann kommt eine wichtige Rolle zu. Er ist Verbindung zwischen zwei Welten. Tatsächlich ist schon der Dichter oder Schriftsteller selbst ein Fährmann, er weiß den Lesern aus seinem Reich der Gedanken, Träume und Vorstellungen zu berichten und entführt ihn für die Dauer des Lesens in dieses Reich.

In literature, almost 5000 years ago (2600 BC), the Gilgamesh epic tells of the ferryman Ur-šanabi, who takes the king across the waters of death. The ferryman has an important role. He is a link between two worlds. In fact, the poet or writer himself is a ferryman, he knows how to tell the reader from his realm of thoughts, dreams and imaginations and takes him into this realm for the duration of the reading.

在文学作品中，早在近5000年前(公元前2600年)，《吉尔伽美什》史诗就讲述了摆渡人乌尔-萨纳比带国王渡过死亡之水的故事。摆渡人有着重要的作用。他是两个世界的纽带。其实，诗人或作家本身就是一个摆渡人，他懂得把自己的思想境界、梦想和想象告诉读者，并在阅读过程中把读者带入这个境界。

=9 译研结合=
作为世界汉学研究会会长，您组织了多场与汉学相关的国际会议，包括一年一度的世界汉学研究大会（WACS），持续向世界展示中华文化的魅力。您既是译者，又是研究者，您如何看待这两个身份之间的转换？您对从事译研结合的学者有何建议吗？

Als Präsident der World Association for Chinese Studies (WACS) haben Sie mehrere internationale Konferenzen im Zusammenhang mit Chinastudien organisiert, darunter den jährlichen Weltkongress für Chinastudien (WACS), der der Welt weiterhin den Charme der chinesischen Kultur vor Augen führt. Sie sind sowohl Übersetzer als auch Forscher, wie sehen Sie den Übergang zwischen diesen beiden Identitäten? Haben Sie einen Rat für Wissenschaftler, die sich mit der Kombination von Übersetzung und Forschung beschäftigen?

Woesler: Im Westen werden Wissenschaftler in der Regel höher angesehen als Übersetzer. Die Arbeit des Übersetzers ist aber dennoch wichtig, da die Wissenschaft auf die Erschließung der Quellen angewiesen ist und da vor allem die breite Öffentlichkeit ohne Übersetzungen die fremdsprachige Literatur nicht kennenlernen und verstehen könnte.

Woesler: In the West, scientists are generally held in higher esteem than translators. The work of the translator is nevertheless important, since science depends on the development of the sources and since above all the general public could not get to know and understand the foreign-language literature without translations.

吴漠汀：在西方，学者的地位普遍高于翻译家。不过，译者的工作还是很重要的，因为科学有赖于源头的发展，最重要的是，如果没有翻译，大众就无法认识和了解外文文献。

Wissenschaftler, die Übersetzungen kritisieren, wie es z.B. jetzt in China Mode wird, verschiedene englischsprachige Übersetzungen des Traums der Roten Kammer zu kritisieren, sollten auch einmal selbst als Schriftsteller und als Übersetzer arbeiten. Zudem sollte man am besten nur Übersetzungen in die eigene Sprache kritisieren. Eine Übersetzung in eine Zielsprache zu kritisieren, verlangt extrem viele Voraussetzungen, die kaum jemand in China mit sich bringt. Wenn man seine Ausgangssprache gut beherrscht, steht der Wissenschaftler hier auf sicherem Boden, er kann Nebenbedeutungen und Nuancen erkennen und die Angemessenheit von Wortwahl, Stil etc. besser einschätzen.

Scholars who criticize translations, as is now the fashion in China, for example, to criticize various English-language translations of the Dream of the Red Chamber, should also work as writers and as translators themselves for once. Moreover, it is best to criticize only translations into one's own language. Criticizing a translation into a target language requires an extremely large number of prerequisites that hardly anyone in China has. If one has a good command of one's source language, the scholar is on safer ground here; he or she can recognize secondary meanings and nuances and better assess the appropriateness of word choice, style, and so on.

像中国现在流行的批评翻译的学者，比如批评《红楼梦》的各种英译本，有的时候也应该以作家本身和译者的身份工作。此外，最好只批评翻译成自己语言的作品。批评翻译成目标语言需要极多的前提，而在中国几乎没有人具备。如果一个人对自己的源语言掌握得很好，那么学者在这里就比较安全，能够识别次要的含义和细微的差别，更好地评估选词、文体等是否恰当。

Wenn ich jedes Jahr über 100 Kolleginnen und Kollegen zu Vorträgen über ihr Fachgebiet einlade, so vor allem aus dem Grund, weil ich denke, dass man sein Leben lang lernen kann, dass man von Kolleginnen und Kollegen lernen kann und seinen Horizont durch mehr Perspektiven und die Diskussionen am Rande der Konferenz erweitert.

When I invite more than 100 colleagues to lecture on their field every year, it is mainly because I think that one can learn throughout one's life, that one can learn from colleagues and broaden one's horizons through more perspectives and the discussions on the sidelines of the conference.

我每年邀请100多位同事到自己的领域讲课，主要是觉得人的一生都是可以学习的，通过更多的视角和会议间隙的讨论，可以向同事学习，拓宽自己的视野。

=10 国际汉学中心=
您是湖南师范大学“潇湘学者”特聘教授，并担任国际汉学中心主任。请问：该中心主要从事工作？您未来计划开展哪些项目推动中德文化交流？

Sie sind ein angesehener Professor der Hunan Normal University und der Direktor des Zentrums für Internationale Chinawissenschaften. Was ist die Hauptaufgabe des Zentrums? Welche zukünftigen Projekte planen Sie, um den kulturellen Austausch zwischen Deutschland und China zu fördern?

Woesler: Das Zentrum für Internationale Chinawissenschaften ist eine Brücke zwischen der heimischen Guoxue und den ausländischen Chinawissenschaften. In diesem Forum können sich Wissenschaftler aus der ganzen Welt mit ihren unterschiedlichen Perspektiven zum Austausch und zur Zusammenarbeit treffen.

Woesler: The Center for International China Studies is a bridge between domestic Guoxue and foreign China studies. In this forum, scholars from all over the world with their different perspectives can meet for exchange and cooperation.

吴漠汀：国际汉学研究中心是国内国学与对外汉语研究的桥梁。在这个论坛上，来自世界各地的学者带着各自不同的观点，可以聚在一起交流合作。

Aus Hongkong haben wir die US-Amerikanerin Margaret Chu gewinnen können, die nebenberuflich als Senior Fellow Kontakte pflegt und Beiträge evaluiert und verbessert. Sie ist gerade Anfang 2021 als Associate Professorin an die Macao University of Science and Technology berufen worden.

From Hong Kong, we have been able to attract Margaret Chu from the US, who is a part-time Senior Fellow who maintains contacts and evaluates and improves contributions. She has just been appointed as an Associate Professor at Macao University of Science and Technology in early 2021.

我们从香港吸引了来自美国的Margaret Chu，她是兼职高级研究员，负责保持联系，评估和改进贡献。她刚刚在2021年初被聘为澳门科技大学副教授。

Ms. Chu has also brought many colleagues into the network, including from Oxford, California, and Massachusetts.

Frau Chu hat auch viele Kollegen, unter anderem aus Oxford, Kalifornien und Massachusetts, ins Netzwerk geholt.

朱女士还将许多同事带进了网络，包括来自牛津、加州和马萨诸塞州的同事。

Aus Deutschland haben vier Kollegen einen Ruf auf Professuren am Foreign Studies College angenommen, darunter zwei Sinologen, die das Zentrum verstärken: Der Philosoph Ole Döring aus Karlsruhe und der Historiker Cord Eberspächer aus Düsseldorf, der das dortige Konfuzius-Institut als Direktor geleitet hat.

From Germany, four colleagues have accepted appointments to professorships at the Foreign Studies College, including two Sinologists who are strengthening the center: Philosopher Ole Döring from Karlsruhe and historian Cord Eberspächer from Düsseldorf, who was director of the Confucius Institute there.

来自德国的四位同事已经接受了外国语学院教授职位的任命，其中包括两位加强中心的汉学家。哲学家Ole Döring来自卡尔斯鲁厄，历史学家Cord Eberspächer来自杜塞尔多夫，他曾在那里担任孔子学院院长。

Wir alle, zusammen mit Kolleginnen und Kollegen aus Russland, den USA, und verschiedenen Staaten in Europa, arbeiten gemeinsam an einer "Geschichte der Chinawissenschaften", die mit einem Übersichtsband sowie 10 Einzelbänden konzipiert ist. Sie soll zeitgleich auf Englisch, Deutsch und Chinesisch erscheinen.

All of us, together with colleagues from Russia, the USA, and various countries in Europe, are working together on a "History of Chinese Studies", which is conceived with an overview volume as well as 10 individual volumes. It is to be published simultaneously in English, German and Chinese.

我们大家和俄罗斯、美国以及欧洲各国的同仁一起，正在共同编写 "中国研究史"，构思中的 "中国研究史 "有一卷总论，也有十卷单行本。该书将以英文、德文和中文同时出版。

In einem anderen Projekt beschäftigt sich das Zentrum mit der Geschichte der Auseinandersetzung mit den Vier Großen Romanen und insbesondere mit dem Traum der Roten Kammer im Ausland, insbesondere im Westen.

In another project, the Center is looking at the history of engagement with the Four Great Novels and, in particular, the Dream of the Red Chamber abroad, especially in the West.

在另一个项目中，该中心正在研究四大名著，特别是《红楼梦》在国外，尤其是在西方的参与历史。

Im Bereich moderne Literatur schauen wir uns Lu Xun an, unter anderem seine Bekanntschaft mit europäischen Schriftstellern und Reform-Pädagogen. Auch Qian Zhongshu ist aus Sicht der internationalen Chinawissenschaften interessant, seine Texte sind voller Bezüge auf westliche Literatur.

In the area of modern literature, we look at Lu Xun, including his acquaintance with European writers and reform educators. Qian Zhongshu is also interesting from the perspective of international Chinese studies; his texts are full of references to Western literature.

在现代文学中，我们看鲁迅，包括他与欧洲作家和改革教育家的相识。从国际汉学的角度看，钱钟书也很有意思，他的文章中充满了对西方文学的引用。

Das Zentrum unterstützt die Übersetzung chinesischer Bücher ins Englische und Deutsche. So wurden zahlreiche Romane, Erzählungen und Sachbücher übersetzt.

The Center supports the translation of Chinese books into English and German. Thus, numerous novels, short stories and non-fiction books have been translated.

中心支持将中文书籍翻译成英语和德语。因此，翻译了许多小说、短篇小说和非小说类书籍。

=11. 曹雪芹和跨国文化=
从跨国文化的角度看曹雪芹你有合想法？

Woesler: Cao Xueqin and even more his protagonist Jia Baoyu both are early humanists, universalists and world citizens. The Red Chamber Dreams function worldwide. The Dream is a complex showroom of diverse aspects of Chinese cultures and is the embodiment and essence of Chinese cultures, but it has also a global impact, therefore it should be honoured as “World Documentary Heritage”.

吴漠汀：曹雪芹，尤其是他的主人公贾宝玉，都是早期的人文主义者，普世主义者和世界公民。《红楼梦》具有普世价值。《红楼梦》综合展示了中国的多元文化，是中国文化的集中体现和精华，同时在全球范围内产生影响，理应列入世界记忆遗产名录。

Cao Xueqin’s message is not simply the one of “Paradise Lost”, instead he himself made the best out of his life. Although being less wealthy than when his family still enjoyed the favour of the emperor, there was a payroll system and a social net intact in Early Qing China, where he received enough income to be independent from his rich relatives, to be selective on accepting jobs, to live a relaxed life in a small house in the nature, spending time with his family and friends, follow his own interests, like reading, writing and drinking wine, making kites for the children and thinking of the disadvantaged.

曹雪芹所传达的信息并不是简单的“失乐园”，相反，他把自己的生活过得很好。虽然比起他的家族享受皇帝的宠爱，他过得没有那么富裕，但清初中国有一套薪俸制度和一张完整的社会网，他获得了足够的收入，可以独立于富贵亲戚，可以有选择性地接受工作，可以在大自然的小房子里过着悠闲的生活，可以与家人和朋友共度时光，可以追随自己的兴趣，例如读书，写作和饮酒，可以为孩子们做风筝，可以为弱势群体着想。

Cao Xueqin was fully aware of his time and China’s cultural achievements, he was familiar with the different levels of society, he was a detailed observer and skilful narrator. He may have conceptualized the ending of the novel as a discussion about the different personalities of the characters in the novel and therefore displaying his reflection about life and his psychological understanding of the diversity of human nature. He was able to grasp the “spirit of time” (Zeitgeist) and with his autobiographical experience create an eternal coming-of-age novel not just for his family, for the Qing-Chinese, for Chinese people, but for mankind.

曹雪芹对自己所处的时代和中国的文化成就了如指掌，他熟悉社会的不同层面，他是一个细致的观察者和娴熟的叙述者。因此，他在小说中对人的不同个性的理解和对小说中人物性格的多样性进行了概念化的探讨。他能够把握“时代精神”，用他的自传体经历，不仅为他的家庭，为清朝的中国人，为中国人民，而且为人类，创作了一部永恒的成人小说。

This tradition of Coming-of-age novels is also a European one, like enlightenment philosopher Voltaire’s novel Candide or Optimism《老实人》shows at the very same time (1759) in Europe. Also Voltaire’s Candide has to leave the luxurious paradise of his childhood and strives for true love, but his main learning is more pessimistic, since Voltaire wrote the novel in opposition to Leibniz, who optimistically looked to China as “the best of all worlds”. Recent research findings show that China had a much larger influence on European enlightenment philosophers and we can be sure, that also Cao Xueqin was aware of some European literary traditions.

这种成熟的传统小说也是一个欧洲人,像启蒙运动哲学家伏尔泰在欧洲同时间出版的的小说《老实人》(1759年)。伏尔泰笔下的老实人不得不离开童年的奢华天堂，为追求真爱而奋斗，但他的主要学习内容却更为悲观，因为伏尔泰的小说与莱布尼茨截然相反，莱布尼茨乐观地认为中国是“所有世界中最好的”。最近的研究发现，中国对欧洲启蒙运动哲学家的影响要大得多，我们可以肯定，曹雪芹对欧洲的一些文学传统也有所了解。

=12. 《红楼梦》跟今天国内外的读者有什么关系？=

Woesler: The novel is an embodiment of “Zeitgeist”.

吴漠汀：小说作为 "时代精神 "的体现。

According to Georg Lukács’ Theory of the Novel, while the Epos (like Homer’s Ilias, which like the Dream reasons the stories in the divine realm) displayed a holistic world experience, a complete, self-contained culture, the novel displays, that the modern world has become infinitely large and has lost its homely quality.

根据格奥尔格-卢卡奇的小说理论，虽然Epos（像荷马的伊利亚斯，它像梦理由神界的故事）展示了一个整体的世界经验，一个完整的，自足的文化，小说展示，现代世界已经变得无限大，已经失去了它的家的品质。

The novel as a genre is no longer documenting just one culture, but represents, with the words of Walter Benjamin, the Organon of History. So the understanding of the novel changed with Lukacs to historical-philosophically. A novel is understood as typical for its historical era, the novel embodies the spirit of the epoch (Zeitgeist).

小说作为一种文体，不再只是记录一种文化，而是用瓦尔特-本雅明的话说，代表了历史的有机体。所以，对小说的理解随着卢卡奇的改变，变成了历史哲学的理解。小说被理解为其历史时代的典型，小说体现了时代精神（Zeitgeist）。

The Red Chamber Dreams are written in front of the background of the Manchu minority having taken over the power in formerly Han-shaped Ming-China (which was a multi-ethnic and crosscultural society) and families suffering the changing favor of changing emperors, with the Cao family being fostered by Kangxi and being persecuted by Yongzheng.

《红楼梦》写的是满族少数民族在原汉字形的明中国（这是一个多民族、跨文化的社会）掌握了政权，家庭遭受换代皇帝的宠爱，曹家被康熙扶植，被雍正迫害的背景前。

While the author in his time could not criticize the system and power of emperors, in the novel he came to terms with this life by seeking the guilt for the persecution in the growing decadence of the family (engaging in Daoism, leisure, poetry-writing, arts and music instead of learning for being able to earn a living) and in himself not fulfilling the expectations as the family heir. This description of decadence of a declining family reminds us of the novels of Tschechov (and e.g. in the Buddenbrooks by Mann, including the turn to arts and music).

虽然作者在他的时代无法批判帝制和皇权，但在小说中，他为家族的日益衰败（参加道教、娱乐、诗歌、艺术和音乐活动，而不是为了谋生而学习）和自己作为家族继承人没有实现家族期望感到自责，通过这样做，他也对这种生活做妥协。这种对没落家族颓废状况的描写，让我们想起了契诃夫的小说（如曼恩的《布登布鲁克》，包括对艺术和音乐的转向）

Moreover, with the detailed description of life on all social levels in early Qing Dynasty, the Dream appears as a documentary historical novel very much like Günter Grass’ The Tin Drum 1959.

此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的《铁皮鼓1959》非常相似，《铁皮鼓1959》是一部纪实历史小说。

=13 中德文化交流=
我们非常感佩您对中华文化的热爱、对推动中德文化交流做出的突出贡献！再次感谢您接受我的访问！祝您多结学术硕果！

Wir bewundern Ihre Liebe zur chinesischen Kultur und Ihren herausragenden Beitrag zur Förderung des kulturellen Austauschs zwischen Deutschland und China! Nochmals vielen Dank für dieses Interview! Ich wünsche Ihnen viele akademische Erfolge!

Woesler: Vielen Dank! Tatsächlich sehe ich es als eine der wichtigsten Aufgaben unserer Zeit, Menschen zusammenzubringen. Viele Nationen sind stolz auf ihre Kultur. Inzwischen wissen wir, dass keine Kultur besser oder schlechter ist als eine andere. Aber es ist faszinierend, und es fördert unsere Entwicklung als Individuen und als Menschheit insgesamt, von den verschiedenen Kulturen zu wissen. Wenn sich wie ich als Deutscher in die chinesische Kultur, auf der ganzen Welt Chinesen in andere Kulturen und Angehörige anderer Kulturen in die chinesische verlieben, so führt dies zu einer Bereicherung und einem Erblühen menschlicher Kultur insgesamt. So können die Menschen das Beste, das in ihnen steckt verwirklichen: Respekt und Toleranz.

Woesler: Thank you very much! Indeed, I see it as one of the most important tasks of our time to bring people together. Many nations are proud of their culture. By now we know that no culture is better or worse than another. But it is fascinating, and it promotes our development as individuals and as humanity as a whole, to know about the different cultures. If, like me as a German, Chinese people fall in love with Chinese culture, and all over the world Chinese people fall in love with other cultures, and members of other cultures fall in love with Chinese culture, this leads to an enrichment and blossoming of human culture as a whole. In this way, people can realize the best that is within them: Respect and tolerance.

吴漠汀：非常感谢你! 的确，我认为这是我们这个时代最重要的任务之一，就是把人们团结起来。许多国家都以自己的文化为荣。现在我们知道，没有任何一种文化比另一种文化更好或更差。但它是迷人的，它能促进我们作为个人和整个人类的发展，了解不同的文化。当像我这个德国人一样，中国人爱上了中国文化，全世界的中国人爱上了其他文化，其他文化的成员爱上了中国文化，这就导致了整个人类文化的丰富和绽放。这样，人们才能实现自己内心的最佳状态。尊重和宽容。

=Notes about the intercultural approach=
==《红楼梦》与其他世界文学作品的相似性——推荐《红楼梦》列入世界记忆遗产名录 Commonness between the Red Chamber Dreams and other World Literature Novels – Proposing the Red Chamber Dreams to the World Documentary Heritage List==

吴漠汀，湖南师范大学 Martin Woesler, Hunan Normal University

==Abstract==
In every culture, readers associate the literature they know with new literature they read. So literature is always cumulative, it grows out of existing literature and can refer back to it. When Western readers read the Red Chamber Dreams, they foremost associate novels and other pieces of literature of their own cultural tradition with the Dreams. This has also influenced the first full translation into German.
Cao Xueqin and even more his protagonist Jia Baoyu both are early humanists, universalists and world citizens. The Red Chamber Dreams function worldwide. The Dream is a complex showroom of diverse aspects of Chinese cultures and is the embodiment and essence of Chinese cultures, but it has also a global impact, therefore it should be honoured as “World Documentary Heritage”.

==Key words==
Western culture, reception tradition, German translation, Embodiment of Chinese cultures, global compatibility, World Documentary Heritage

==摘要==
在每一种文化中，读者都会把他们读到的新文学与已知文学联系起来，所以文学总是积累的，它从现有的文学中生长出来，并以已有文学为参考。西方读者在阅读《红楼梦》时，首先会把《红楼梦》与自身文化传统中的小说和其他文学作品联系起来，这也影响了首次德语全译本。
曹雪芹，尤其是他的主人公贾宝玉，都是早期的人文主义者，普世主义者和世界公民。《红楼梦》具有普世价值。《红楼梦》综合展示了中国的多元文化，是中国文化的集中体现和精华，同时在全球范围内产生影响，理应列入世界记忆遗产名录。

==关键词==

西方文化，传统保护，德国翻译，中国文化具像化表现，全球兼容，世界遗产文献 --Weiyafei (talk) 07:10, 28 December 2020 (UTC)Wei yafei

==1. Chinese Ethics==

To help the poor and disadvantaged belongs to the traditional core values of Chinese culture.

When we sit in the Beijing Subway today, the loudspeaker announcement reminds us, that it is Chinese traditional ethics to give seats to the disadvantaged (老弱病残孕让座是中国传统道德). We know of Cao Xueqin, that he supported the poor and disadvantaged, and that he made kites for children.

However, when we look closer at these “Chinese Ethics”, we discover, that they are claimed also in Indian Buddhism “karuna” and in the Christian tradition of “caritas” and in almost every civilization. Therefore, we might call these values “human ethics”.

中国伦理“扶贫济困”是中国文化的传统核心价值观。当我们今天坐在北京地铁时，扬声器的公告提醒我们，让弱势群体有座位是中国传统道德。我们知道曹雪芹，他支持穷人和处境不利的人，他为孩子们制作风筝。但是，当我们仔细观察这些“中国伦理学”时，我们发现，印度佛教“ karuna”，基督教的“明爱”传统以及几乎所有文明中也都声称拥有它们。因此，我们可以将这些价值观称为“人类道德”。--Wen Xiaoyi (talk) 15:24, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

==2. Compatibility Why do the Red Chamber Dreams function worldwide and have achieved world literature status even in their translations?==

2. 兼容性为什么《红楼梦》在世界范围内广泛流传，甚至在翻译领域中也取得了世界文学的地位？

First of all, the Red Chamber Dreams are, like novels worldwide, a piece of entertainment literature. In comparison to the drama, in which every element is compulsory and plays its part in the overall structure, in the novel the line of action itself is simpler and not so important, most of the scenes or episodes are loosely put together and fit in the broader theme of the novel.

首先，《红楼梦》和世界小说一样，是一部娱乐文学。与戏剧中的每一个元素都是强制性的，在整体结构中起作用的戏剧相比，小说的行动路线本身更简单，也不那么重要，大部分场景或情节都松散地组合在一起，这和小说更广泛的主题相吻合。

However, the lose arrangement of episodes of the Dreams comes from the tradition of almost unconnected episodes like in the Shuihuzhuan and is a step towards the greater coherence of the episodes, the aligning into a story line and the greater concentration on fewer protagonists. Therefore, the Dreams show clearly a step towards the Western tradition of novels, maybe because of growing Western influence in Qing dynasty.

然而，《红楼梦》章回结构不连续来自于《水浒传》中几乎没有联系的章回的传统，这是朝着章回更连贯、与故事线一致以及更集中于较少主角的方向迈出的一步。因此，《红楼梦》明显向西方小说传统迈进了一步，可能是因为西方对清代的影响越来越大。

==3. Impact of translator’s native culture on the translation process==

3.译者的本土文化对翻译过程的影响

There are intercultural parallels between the Red Chamber Dreams and Western works of literature.

《红楼梦》和西方文学作品之间有跨国文化的相似之处。

These parallels are fundamental for the translation and were explicitly and implicitly fundamental for the German translator Martin Woesler during his translation and editorial work on the first full German translation. In the following, I will mention some of the Western novels and pieces of literature, which the Western reader of the Dreams will immediately think of.

这些相似之处是翻译的根本，也是德文译者马丁-沃斯勒在翻译和编辑第一部德文全译本时明确和隐含的根本。下面，我将提到一些西方的小说和文学作品，西方的读者读到梦会立即想到这些作品。

==4. The novel as embodiment of “Zeitgeist”==

4. 小说作为 "时代精神 "的体现。

According to Georg Lukács’ Theory of the Novel, while the Epos (like Homer’s Ilias, which like the Dream reasons the stories in the divine realm) displayed a holistic world experience, a complete, self-contained culture, the novel displays, that the modern world has become infinitely large and has lost its homely quality.

根据格奥尔格-卢卡奇的小说理论，虽然Epos（像荷马的伊利亚斯，它像梦理由神界的故事）展示了一个整体的世界经验，一个完整的，自足的文化，小说展示，现代世界已经变得无限大，已经失去了它的家的品质。

The novel as a genre is no longer documenting just one culture, but represents, with the words of Walter Benjamin, the Organon of History. So the understanding of the novel changed with Lukacs to historical-philosophically. A novel is understood as typical for its historical era, the novel embodies the spirit of the epoch (Zeitgeist).

小说作为一种文体，不再只是记录一种文化，而是用瓦尔特-本雅明的话说，代表了历史的有机体。所以，对小说的理解随着卢卡奇的改变，变成了历史哲学的理解。小说被理解为其历史时代的典型，小说体现了时代精神（Zeitgeist）。

The Red Chamber Dreams are written in front of the background of the Manchu minority having taken over the power in formerly Han-shaped Ming-China (which was a multi-ethnic and crosscultural society) and families suffering the changing favor of changing emperors, with the Cao family being fostered by Kangxi and being persecuted by Yongzheng.

《红楼梦》写的是满族少数民族在原汉字形的明中国（这是一个多民族、跨文化的社会）掌握了政权，家庭遭受换代皇帝的宠爱，曹家被康熙扶植，被雍正迫害的背景前。

While the author in his time could not criticize the system and power of emperors, in the novel he came to terms with this life by seeking the guilt for the persecution in the growing decadence of the family (engaging in Daoism, leisure, poetry-writing, arts and music instead of learning for being able to earn a living) and in himself not fulfilling the expectations as the family heir. This description of decadence of a declining family reminds us of the novels of Tschechov (and e.g. in the Buddenbrooks by Mann, including the turn to arts and music).

虽然作者在他的时代无法批判帝制和皇权，但在小说中，他为家族的日益衰败（参加道教、娱乐、诗歌、艺术和音乐活动，而不是为了谋生而学习）和自己作为家族继承人没有实现家族期望感到自责，通过这样做，他也对这种生活做妥协。这种对没落家族颓废状况的描写，让我们想起了契诃夫的小说（如曼恩的《布登布鲁克》，包括对艺术和音乐的转向）

Moreover, with the detailed description of life on all social levels in early Qing Dynasty, the Dream appears as a documentary historical novel very much like Günter Grass’ The Tin Drum 1959.

此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的《铁皮鼓1959》非常相似，《铁皮鼓1959》是一部纪实历史小说。

==5. Coming-of-age and Alienation==

5. 成熟和异化

Abandoning the paradise-like garden in the Red Chamber Dreams is a symbol for leaving the protected childhood and arriving in the complex world of adults. With George Lukács theory of the novel, the protagonist starts to problematize the sense of his life, in the novel, the protagonist’s self permanently struggles with his environment.

抛弃《红楼梦》中天堂般的花园，是离开受保护的童年，进入复杂的成人世界的象征。随着乔治·卢卡奇的小说理论，主人公开始对他的生活感觉产生疑问，在小说中，主人公的自我一直与他的环境作斗争。

However, Cao Xueqin’s message is not simply the one of “Paradise Lost”, instead he himself made the best out of his life. Although being less wealthy than when his family still enjoyed the favour of the emperor, there was a payroll system and a social net intact in Early Qing China, where he received enough income to be independent from his rich relatives, to be selective on accepting jobs, to live a relaxed life in a small house in the nature, spending time with his family and friends, follow his own interests, like reading, writing and drinking wine, making kites for the children and thinking of the disadvantaged.

然而，曹雪芹所传达的信息并不是简单的“失乐园”，相反，他把自己的生活过得很好。虽然比起他的家族享受皇帝的宠爱，他过得没有那么富裕，但清初中国有一套薪俸制度和一张完整的社会网，他获得了足够的收入，可以独立于富贵亲戚，可以有选择性地接受工作，可以在大自然的小房子里过着悠闲的生活，可以与家人和朋友共度时光，可以追随自己的兴趣，例如读书，写作和饮酒，可以为孩子们做风筝，可以为弱势群体着想。

Cao Xueqin was fully aware of his time and China’s cultural achievements, he was familiar with the different levels of society, he was a detailed observer and skilful narrator. He may have conceptualized the ending of the novel as a discussion about the different personalities of the characters in the novel and therefore displaying his reflection about life and his psychological understanding of the diversity of human nature. He was able to grasp the “spirit of time” (Zeitgeist) and with his autobiographical experience create an eternal coming-of-age novel not just for his family, for the Qing-Chinese, for Chinese people, but for mankind.

曹雪芹对自己所处的时代和中国的文化成就了如指掌，他熟悉社会的不同层面，他是一个细致的观察者和娴熟的叙述者。因此，他在小说中对人的不同个性的理解和对小说中人物性格的多样性进行了概念化的探讨。他能够把握“时代精神”，用他的自传体经历，不仅为他的家庭，为清朝的中国人，为中国人民，而且为人类，创作了一部永恒的成人小说。

This tradition of Coming-of-age novels is also a European one, like enlightenment philosopher Voltaire’s novel Candide or Optimism《老实人》shows at the very same time (1759) in Europe. Also Voltaire’s Candide has to leave the luxurious paradise of his childhood and strives for true love, but his main learning is more pessimistic, since Voltaire wrote the novel in opposition to Leibniz, who optimistically looked to China as “the best of all worlds”. Recent research findings show that China had a much larger influence on European enlightenment philosophers and we can be sure, that also Cao Xueqin was aware of some European literary traditions.

这种成熟的传统小说也是一个欧洲人,像启蒙运动哲学家伏尔泰在欧洲同时间出版的的小说《老实人》(1759年)。伏尔泰笔下的老实人不得不离开童年的奢华天堂，为追求真爱而奋斗，但他的主要学习内容却更为悲观，因为伏尔泰的小说与莱布尼茨截然相反，莱布尼茨乐观地认为中国是“所有世界中最好的”。最近的研究发现，中国对欧洲启蒙运动哲学家的影响要大得多，我们可以肯定，曹雪芹对欧洲的一些文学传统也有所了解。

Also the German readership is familiar with the chronological following of the life of the protagonist and his development, the fate of a family over generations, the German readership knows this type of novel as the “Education novel” or “Coming-of-age-novel”. In Germany, the genre of the coming-of-age novel has a long tradition and it is shaped more by single characters, who appear as teachers (Goethe: Wilhelm Meister’s Apprenticeship威廉·麦斯特的学徒岁月 1795-96, Novalis 诺瓦利斯: Heinrich von Ofterdingen 《海因利·封·歐福特丁根》1802).

德国读者对主人公的生平及其发展、家族世代的命运都很熟悉，德国读者把这种类型的小说称为“教育小说”或“成长小说”。在德国,关于成长小说的体裁有着悠久的传统,它的形状更由单个字符,它更多的是被塑造为教师的单个人物(歌德：'Wilhelm Meister’s Apprenticeship威廉·麦斯特的学徒岁月 1795-96, Novalis 诺瓦利斯: Heinrich von Ofterdingen《海因利·封·歐福特丁根》1802)。

Wilhelm Meister, parallely to Jia Baoyu, is struggling with the traditional education, in Wilhelm Meister this is represented with the classics revived in Shakespeare’s dramas. Tradition can give orientation, but the personality of the protagonist needs to develop through emancipation is a wisdom, we can learn from all mentioned novels including the Dreams.

==6. Pornography and True Love, female rivals==

Sexuality is a basic human need and has developed into different shapes in all cultures. The German audience is familiar with erotic topics from the Middle Ages, in which sexuality was stylized. In the “Schwänke” of the 15th century (Wittenwielers Ring), erotic scenes are described sexually explicit.

与贾宝玉一样，威廉·迈斯特也在与传统教育作斗争，在《威廉·迈斯特》中，莎士比亚戏剧中复兴的经典作品代表了这一点。传统可以给予导向，但主人公的个性需要通过解放来发展是一种智慧，我们可以从包括《梦》在内的所有小说中学习。 “6。色情与真爱，女性对手" 性是人类的一种基本需求，在各种文化中形成了不同的形态。德国观众熟悉中世纪的情色话题，在这些话题中，性是程式化的。在15世纪的“Schwanke”(Wittenwielers Ring)中，情色场景被描述为露骨的性。

In the barock literature of the 17th century even the physical act is described extensively.

在17世纪的Barock文学中，甚至对物理行为也进行了广泛的描述。

According to „cumulativity“, every human being is a product of history and literature is based on previous literature, therefore the author of this pager thinks that this background has to be taken into account while translating.

根据“累积性”，每个人都是历史的产物，而文学是基于先前的文献，因此，该传呼机的作者认为翻译时必须考虑这一背景。

The best study on qing passion in the Dreams is the one by Anthony Yu, who understood it as desire and as the central motif of the Dreams. „The centrality of qing in shaping virtually every aspect of The Story of the Stone’s structure and meaning cannot be denied [...].“ (Anthony Yu 2001, 54).

关于梦中关于“情”最好的研究是安东尼·于（Anthony Yu）的研究，他将其理解为欲望和梦的中心主题。 “清香在塑造《石头的故事》的结构和意义的几乎每个方面的中心作用都不能否认。”（Anthony Yu 2001，54）。

In the framework story of the Dreams, the narrator consciously takes a stand against low-action and stereotypical pornographic literature as well as against the widespread romance novels (with the classic roles of the beautiful, talented woman and the poor scholar who finally achieves a respected position and prosperity by passing a civil service exam).

在《梦》的框架故事中，叙述者有意识地反对低俗的动作和陈规定型的色情文学，反对流传甚广的浪漫小说（以美丽的才女和通过公务员制度最终获得受人尊敬的地位的穷困书生为经典角色）。

In chapter 1 he says: ”of the true feelings of young people [...] nobody has reported about so far.”

在第一章中，他说：“关于年轻人的真实感受，[……]到目前为止还没有人报道过。”

Erotic scenes are described in a decent and associative way (“Game of clouds and rain”), while displaying another quality in its openness e.g. towards bisexuality.

情色场景被描述成一个体面和联想的方式（“云和雨的游戏”），同时显示了另一个开放性的性质，例如对双性恋。

The 'Red Chamber Dream' narrates the story of unfortunate lovers. Unfortunate lovers also in the West have a literary tradition, they constitute an archetype, such as Hero and Leander, Pyramus and Thisbe, Tristan and Isolde, Flore and Blanscheflur as well as Troilus and Cressida, the latter being considered the model for Arthur Brookes, who wrote Romeo and Juliet in 1562 and thus directly influenced Shakespeare.

《红楼梦》讲述了一对不幸的恋人的故事。不幸的恋人也有西方文学的传统,他们构成一个原型,如英雄和利安得、皮拉摩斯和提斯柏,特里斯坦与伊索尔德,凝花和Blanscheflur特洛伊罗斯和克雷西达,后者被认为是阿瑟·布鲁克斯的模型,他在1562年写了《罗密欧与朱丽叶》,从而直接影响了莎士比亚。玛丽安·加利克认为《红楼梦》和《浮士德》都是吸引我们的永恒女性的中心主题，顾城则称其为“永恒的处女”。

While Marián Galik saw as the central topic of both, the Dream and Faust, the eternal feminine, which draws us on high, Gu Cheng called it the “eternal virgine”.

玛丽安·加利克（Mariann Galik）认为《梦》和《浮士德》都是吸引我们的永恒女性的中心主题，顾城则称其为“永恒的处女”。

In Goethe’s coming-of-age novel Wilhelm Meisters Wanderjahre, we find a similar motif of female rivals, in the Keller 凯勒 The Green Henry 《绿衣亨利》1855, the hero turns away from an emphatically sexually designed figure and turns to the 'real' woman. In Jane Austen’s Pride and Prejudice 1813 Elizabeth and Lin Daiyu are similar, e.g. they both strive for real love (Zhuang 2011).

在歌德的成长小说Wilhelm Meisters Wanderjahre中，我们发现了类似的女性竞争主题，在凯勒The Green Henry（《绿衣亨利》1855）中，男主人公父亲早亡，母亲养育其成人。在简-奥斯汀的Pride and Prejudice（《傲慢与偏见》1813）中，伊丽莎白和林黛玉是相似的，比如她们都追求真爱（庄2011）。

==7. Feudal society and slavery==

7. 封建社会和奴隶

A widespread interpretation is that Jia Baoyu’s equal treatment of family members and slaves would be a manifesto to free the slaves. I also do not share this interpretation, since Aristotle, when he demanded democracy, would exclude slaves from the right to vote. So we cannot use modern concepts to judge on the past. In my understanding, Jia Baoyu was not fighting inequality, but looked at the people as humans and individuals.

人们普遍认为贾宝玉对待家庭成员和奴隶的平等对待是解放奴隶的宣言。我不同意这种解释，因为亚里士多德吁民主时，会将奴隶从投票权中剔除。所以我们不能用现代观点评判古人。我认为，贾宝玉并不是在为不平等而做斗争，而是将人区分为人或是个体。

Also the understanding of the servants as slaves does not match the description in the Dream, since some servants had servants themselves, the family took care after they left the Jia family to find a match for them and Jia Zheng refers to his daughter Yingchun as „yatou 丫头“, so it is inappropriate to translate this expression with slave. Therefore, the translator preferred “servant” over “slave” in the translation.

而且把仆人理解为奴隶与《红楼梦》中的描写不符，因为有些仆人自己还有仆人，贾府会在她们离府的时候为她们寻一门亲事，作为贾府对她们的照料；贾政也把自己的女儿迎春喊作 “丫头”，所以把这些翻译成奴隶是不合适的。因此英文翻译中采用“servant”会比“slave”更为合适。

Mo Yan in his speech at the Frankfurt Bookfair in 2009, when China was the guest of honor, draws the (similarly) parallel between the Dream and Goethe’s Sorrows of the Young Werther, that both expressed the wish to abandon feudal society. My own impression is that both do not express this wish, but that this is a later concept and interpretation and we should not apply this to judge the past.

2009年，莫言代表中国作为主宾国参加法兰克福书展时，在演讲中把《红楼梦》和歌德的《少年维特之哀》画上了约等号，表达了抛弃封建社会的愿望。我自己的感觉是，两者都没有表达这个愿望，但这是后来的概念和解释，我们不应该以此来判断过去。

==8. Tragedy of all tragedies==

8.最悲剧的悲剧

Aristotle explained in On the Tragedy (Poetics VI), that tragedies move people more than comedies because they “imitate [mimēsis] an action that is serious, complete, and of a certain magnitude” (Aristotle 1971, 51), This high esteem of the tragedy in Europe is partly ascribed to the loss of Aristotle’s work On the Comedy.

亚里士多德在《悲剧论》（诗学VI）中解释道，悲剧之所以比戏剧更加动人，是因为它们“模仿（mimēsis）一种严肃、完整且具有一定规模的行动”（Aristotle 1971，51）。悲剧在欧洲拥有崇高地位部分归因于亚里士多德的作品《论喜剧》的失传。

While Europe has the Hamlet as its tragedy of all tragedies, the lack of tragic literature in Chinese literary tradition has long been lamented. Wang Guowei sees the Dream as "tragedy of all tragedies". To Wang Guowei the suffering of Faust and Jia Baoyu is central in the novels. However, many scholars contest that Faustianism is central for Chinese culture.

欧洲悲剧中以《哈姆雷特》为悲剧，而中国文学传统中悲剧文学的缺失，长期以来被人们所惋惜。王国维认为《梦》是“所有悲剧中的悲剧”。对王国维来说，浮士德和贾宝玉的苦难是小说的中心。然而，许多学者认为浮士德主义是中国文化的核心。

In 18th century Europe, we saw a new development in the genre of the drama, to establish a “bourgeois tragedy”.

在18世纪的欧洲，我们看到了戏剧体裁的新发展，确立了“资产阶级悲剧”。

It developed as an emancipatory movement in the 18th century in London, Paris and Germany, and demonstrated that tragedy was not reserved to rulers, but was also imagineable for lower noblemen and ordinary citizens. The Dream at the same time as the bourgeois tragedy in Europe shows a tragic story of a mid-level noble family which loses its titles and privileges.

它作为一场解放运动在18世纪的伦敦、巴黎和德国发展起来，并证明了悲剧并非只发生在统治者身上，也可能发生在下层贵族和普通公民身上。《梦》与欧洲资产阶级悲剧同时上演，讲述的是一个中层贵族家庭失去头衔和特权的悲剧故事。

==9. “Non-Binary” Novels==

9. “非二元”小说

One of the things attracting Western readers is the adorable but mysterious protagonist Jia Baoyu. With his open bisexual orientation and his interest in his mates regardless of their social status, he appears “modern” or at least displaced in time. His struggle with traditional learning makes him appear sympathetic, his long states of rapture out of the world give him both the aura of a timeless character and of mystery.

一个吸引西方读者的东西是可爱而神秘的主人公贾宝玉。由于他开放的双性恋倾向和他对伴侣的兴趣，不管他们的社会地位如何，他显得“现代”或至少在时间上流离失所。他与传统学习的斗争使他显得富有同情心，他从世界上长期的狂喜给了他永恒的性格和神秘的气息。

With the bisexual orientation of the Dreams’ protagonist, the novel appears non-binary. According to German sinologist Karl-Heinz Pohl (2018), binaries are just superficial, ultimately decisive is the Heart Sutra. Today, the novel is listed among the genre of non-binary literature (see e.g. the bibliographical list on https://www.goodreads.com/list/tag/non-binary), in which contrasts are dissolved deconstructivistically.

随着梦中主人公的双性取向，小说呈现出非二元性。德国汉学家卜松山(2018)认为，二进制只是表面现象，最终起决定性作用的是“心经”。今天，这部小说被列为非二元文学的一个流派（参见https://www.goodreads.com/list/tag/non-binary)，其中的反差被解构主义地化解了。

==10. Foreign Cultures in the Red Chamber Dreams==

10.红楼梦中的异邦文化

Foreign Cultures frequently appear in the Dreams in all kinds of varieties, like exoticism with the many objects in the household and presented to the household as novelties, especially the blond girl of the same age as Baoyu referred to in person (combining different origins and cultures, including European, Japanese, Chinese) or several times on paintings, one time shown with wings as an angel.

红楼梦中经常出现各种各样的异邦文化元素，例如许多贾府物品带有异国情调，并是以新奇的形式呈现给贾府的，尤其是其中提到的与宝玉同龄的金发女孩（结合了不同的来历和文化，包括欧洲，日本，中国），金发女孩也多次在绘画中出现，有一次是以带翅膀的天使的形象出现。

The playful combination of different traditions we can see also when a religious dress is described, which carries characteristics of different religions. Similarly, the Daoist monk and the Confucian priest appear together. Cao Xueqin wanted to show the richness and diversity, also with the many topics and societal levels of the novel. Even a variety of Christian motifs can be found, like when Jia Baoyu is not recognized by his father in chapter 120 and when he disappears, all parallel to Jesus Christ.

宗教服饰带有不同宗教的特点，在描述一种宗教服饰时，我们也能体味不同宗教传统的玩味结合。同样，道士和儒士也可一起出现。曹雪芹想表现出小说的丰富性和多样性，同时也要展现出小说的众多主题和社会层次。在书中甚至可以找到各种基督教的主题，比如第120章贾宝玉不被父亲认可，以及贾宝玉消失的时候，这些都与耶稣基督平行。

The variety of cultures is paralleled with the variety of elements of different dynasties, which makes it timeless and therefore even more a masterpiece of Chinese art and a masterpiece of human art. Therefore I would like to nominate the Red Chamber Dreams as “World Documentary Heritage”.

文化的多样性与不同朝代的元素多样性相辅相成，这种多样性便其变得永恒，甚至因此而成为中国艺术杰作和人类艺术杰作。因此，我想提名《红楼梦》为“世界纪录片遗产”。

==References 参考文献==

*Anthony, C. Yu. (2001). Rereading the Stone: Desire and the Making of Fiction in Dream of the Red Chamber. Princeton University Press.
*Aristotle. (1971). Poetics. Trans. S. H. Butcher. Ed. Hazard Adams. Critical Theory since Plato. ew York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 48-66.
*Woesler, Martin, ed., Cao Xueqin, Gao E et al. (2016). Der Traum der Roten Kammer oder Die Geschichte vom Stein [Red Chamber Dreams or The Story of the Stone], Peking: Foreign Languages Press, ISBN 9787119094120, 4813 pages, 6 vols., hardcover, transl. by Rainer Schwarz and Martin Woesler; Chinese-German bilingual edition
*Woesler, Martin. (2011). “Being Explicit About the Implicit – John Minford’s Translation of the last Forty Chapters of The Story of the Stone with a Field Study on two Sexually Arousing Scenes”. Hong lou meng xue kan 6: 274-289
*Woesler, Martin. (2010). “ ’To Amuse the Beaux and Belles’ The Early Western Reception of the Hongloumeng”. Journal of Sino-Western Communications 2 (2010.12) 2:81-107
*Zhuang, Xiuhua. (2011). Self, Ideal and Salvation: A Comparative Study of Jane Austen’s Elizabeth and Cao Xueqin’s Lin Daiyu. Journal of Language Teaching and Research, Vol. 2, No. 2, pp. 420-423, March 2011. Fulltext: http://www.academypublication.com/issues/past/jltr/vol02/02/19.pdf.

2021 Interview with Duan Yuanyuan

2021-03-04T13:37:04Z

Bebery: /* 6 中西合璧 */

'''访谈提纲 Interview with Martin Woesler by Duan Yuanyuan'''

=1 让·莫内讲席教授=
吴教授您好，非常感谢您拨冗接受我的访谈！首先恭喜您获得“让·莫内讲席教授”荣誉称号，此地位是欧盟对从事欧洲一体化教学与研究学者的最高学术承认！您真可谓是一位欧盟的学术大使！据悉，该项目申请难度颇大，中国今年只有湖南师范大学、四川大学和中国政法大学三所大学获得资助。您可否借此次获奖的机缘，说明你眼中中欧的学术交流呢？
不客气！的确，我把自己看作是中欧之间的“文化大使”，把这次获得“让·莫内讲席教授”称号看作是在华工作、学习、生活近三十年的一个阶段性总结。许多西方人认为在华生活是一个极大的挑战，对此我并不否认，但是挑战之余，我还从中看到了变革[What kind of transformation are we talking about here? ]的必要性，而且变革只有通过接触和交流才能实现。中国应该有更多的欧洲学者，中国也应该成为德国每一所大学亟需讨论的议题。
You're welcome! Indeed, I regard myself as a "cultural ambassador" between China and Europe, and I regard winning the title of "Professor Jean Monnet Lecture" as a phased summary of nearly 30 years of work, study and life in China. Many Westerners think that living in China is a great challenge, which I don't deny, but besides the challenge, I also see the necessity of change, and change can only be realized through contact and communication. There should be more European scholars in China, and China should also become an urgent topic for every German university to discuss.
欧盟委员会2020年在全球范围内授予了70个让·莫内教席，且每所大学最多可获一个名额。中国境内大学上次获得还是在2016年。“让·莫内讲席教授”传统上主要关注欧盟相关研究。现在欧盟委员会把这个奖项授予在中国任教的德国汉学家，这说明欧盟委员会已经认识到批判性地对比其它国家和欧盟发展模式的重要性。
In 2020, the European Commission awarded 70 Jean Monnet chairs worldwide, and each university can get up to one place. The last time universities in China won it was in 2016. Traditionally, "Professor Jean Monnet" mainly focuses on EU-related research. Now the European Commission has awarded this award to German sinologists who teach in China, which shows that the European Commission has realized the importance of critically comparing the development models of other countries with those of the European Union.
我不想把欧盟在中国的表现作为中国的反面典型，而是用批判性的眼光看待。中国学生正是通过批判性思维树立价值观。我曾做过调查，结果显示，很多中国学生认为欧盟的政治一体化还没有成功，英国脱欧反映了欧盟的软弱，但我想传达的知识是，欧盟已经在运作了，只是方式不同而已：即追求的不是快速而精干的决策过程，而是等待、讨论、参与和妥协。
I don't want to take the EU's performance in China as a negative example of China, but look at it critically. It is through critical thinking that Chinese students establish values. I have done a survey, and the results show that many Chinese students think that the political integration of the EU has not been successful, and Brexit reflects the weakness of the EU, but the knowledge I want to convey is that the EU is already in operation, only in different ways: it is not a fast and lean decision-making process, but waiting, discussing, participating and compromising.
同时，英国脱欧正表明欧盟每个成员都有随时离开的自由，这被视为一种成就。所以欧洲未必比中国差，只是不同而已。而当中国学生乐于接受不同的时候，他们的个性就会得到发展，成熟起来，适合国际就业市场。因此，我很鼓励学生去欧洲交换学习一两个学期。
At the same time, Brexit shows that every EU member has the freedom to leave at any time, which is regarded as an achievement. Therefore, Europe is not necessarily worse than China, it is just different. When Chinese students are willing to accept differences, their personalities will develop and mature, which is suitable for the international job market. Therefore, I encourage students to go to Europe for exchange study for one or two semesters.
申请“让·莫内讲席”项目时，我就在材料中表明该项目的落脚点在于中国和欧洲的比较，课题还囊括不同的教育体系、社会各领域的数字化以及对数据隐私的保护。通过该项目，我会推荐几名德国同事来中国短期或者长期工作，也会推荐中国同事去欧洲短期访学。并针对该项目，设置课程专题对比中欧近来的对外政策，以期激励中国塑造更加完整的海外形象。
When applying for the "Jean Monnet Lecture" project, I indicated in the materials that the foothold of the project lies in the comparison between China and Europe, and the topic also includes different education systems, digitalization in various fields of society and protection of data privacy. Through this project, I will recommend several German colleagues to work in China for a short or long time, and I will also recommend Chinese colleagues to visit Europe for a short time. In view of this project, a course topic is set up to compare the recent foreign policies of China and Europe, in order to encourage China to shape a more complete overseas image.

=2 《红楼梦》首次全译本=
2.您的代表作是《红楼梦》德语全译本，您是如何走上汉学之路的呢？可否谈谈与史华慈合译《红楼梦》的初衷？How did you begin to learn Chinese and how to stick to the path of sinology for so many years? Why did you choose to translate 红楼梦？
《红楼梦》的意义大于个人，是一件永恒的艺术品，应该提升到“世界遗产”的地位。目前，欧洲只有半数国家出版《红楼梦》译本。1989年我刚上大学的时候，德文版《红楼梦》也只有弗兰茨-库恩的节译本，共40章，只有原文体量的三分之一。与库恩的其他中国优秀小说译本在语言上几乎没有差别，带有浓厚的德国地方色彩。我也注意到了译文的不足之处。他把《红楼梦》书名中的“楼”翻译成“城堡”。这种译法也许比较适合欧洲读者的阅读口味，但就中国文化、中国历史、中国环境而言，我认为不太准确。这些不足之处也可解释为什么大卫-霍克斯和约翰-闵福德的译本在德国广受欢迎。
A Dream of Red Mansions is more meaningful than an individual. It is an eternal work of art and should be promoted to the status of "World Heritage". At present, only half of European countries have translated a Dream of Red Mansions. When I first went to college in 1989, the German version of a Dream of Red Mansions was only a flantz-Kuhn excerpt, with a total of 40 chapters, only one third of the original volume. There is almost no difference in language with Kuhn's other excellent Chinese novel translations, with strong German local color. I also noticed the shortcomings of the translation. He translated "Lou" in the title of A Dream of Red Mansions into "Castle". This translation may be more suitable for European readers, but I don't think it is accurate in terms of Chinese culture, Chinese history and Chinese environment. These shortcomings can also explain why the translations of David Hawkes and John Minford are so popular in Germany.
XX年/契机我开始重新翻译《红楼梦》。也是通过这个项目，我申请到了北京大学德意志学术交流中心（Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst，简称DAAD）奖学金。因此我也得以在北京大学学习X个月。[When did you study in Peking University? And for how long?]当时的选拔委员会主席是沃尔夫冈·顾彬（Wolfgang Kubin，中文名顾彬），他后来成为我的博士生导师之一。随后在北京，我多次参观了红楼梦研究所。参观之时张#送给我一本《红楼梦》辞典。后来回到德国，我与马汉茂（Helmut Martin）合作。从他那里我了解到，史华慈（Rainer Schwarz）已经将小说前80章翻译出来，并将自己的译文交给他出版，马汉茂让我审阅了史华兹的译本。不过译文暂未达到出版质量，[Can you give more details of why it can not be published yet? ]还需修订。
XX Year/Opportunity I began to retranslate A Dream of Red Mansions. It was also through this project that I applied for a scholarship from Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst (DAAD) of Peking University. So I was able to study at Peking University for X months. At that time, the chairman of the selection committee was Wolfgang Kubin (Chinese name Gu Bin), who later became one of my doctoral supervisors. Later in Beijing, I visited the Dream of Red Mansions Research Institute many times. During the visit, Zhang # gave me a dictionary of a Dream of Red Mansions. Later, when I returned to Germany, I cooperated with Helmut Martin. I learned from him that Rainer Schwarz had translated the first 80 chapters of the novel and gave him his own translation for publication. Ma Hanmao asked me to review Schwartz's translation. However, the translation has not yet reached the publishing quality and needs to be revised.
这次翻译尝试于我而言具有重大意义，我认为修改史华兹的译本使其达到出版水平比自己独立完成120章的翻译更重要。我花了几年时间修订史华兹的译文，随后自己翻译了后40回。然后按照前80回的风格重新修改我翻译的后40回，其中人名的翻译统一采用正式的拼音系统及其拼写方法，且并非采用标准的汉语拼音，而是按照德语书写方式，这样做的目的是尽可能地吸引更多读者的关注，且避免读者出现行文风格“跳脱”感受。
This translation attempt is of great significance to me. I think it is more important to revise Schwartz's translation to the publishing level than to complete the translation of 120 chapters independently. It took me several years to revise Schwartz's translation, and then I translated the last 40 times myself. Then I revised the last 40 times of my translation according to the style of the first 80 times, Among them, the translation of names adopts the formal Pinyin system and its spelling method, and does not adopt the standard Chinese Pinyin, but according to the German writing method. The purpose of this is to attract more readers' attention as much as possible, and to avoid readers' feeling of "jumping" in writing style.
现在，读者可获得完整、精细的译本，译本必要处附有注释。之后在XX年X月[When will the fifth edition be published? ]会出版第五版，该版本会根据读者意见和自己对原文的重新理解再进行改进。比如在我未出版的120章全译本中，很多人名的翻译也考虑到了名字的中文含义。[What amendments will you make in the fifth edition of the Chamber? Could you please list some? ]
Now, readers can get a complete and detailed translation, with notes where necessary. Then [when will the fifth edition be published? ] will publish the fifth edition, which will be improved according to readers' opinions and their own re-understanding of the original text. For example, in my unpublished full translation of 120 chapters, the translation of many names also takes into account the Chinese meaning of names. [What amendments will you make in the fifth edition of the Chamber? Could you please list some? ]

=3 欧洲红学=
3.您曾在国内红学权威刊物《红楼梦学刊》上发表过两篇文章，以德国人的视角叙述西方对《红楼梦》的了解，并介绍德译本情况以及西方学者的理解及评价。从这两篇文章可以看出，《红楼梦》在西方的传播已变换形式，由文本本身的传播向舞台剧等多模态形态发展。请问现今欧洲的红学研究、传播现状如何？您认为《红楼梦》对国内外读者有何影响？
小说是“时代精神”的体现。《红楼梦》于1791年首次出版，其创作背景是中国少数民族之一的满族统治下的清朝，曹家或受康熙宠信或备受雍正冷落以致抄家没落。囿于时代背景，作者在当时无法公开批判帝制皇权，但在小说中，他在家庭日益衰败（从事道教、闲暇、诗歌创作、艺术和音乐，而不是为了能够谋生而学习）和自己没有实现作为家族继承人的期望中，寻求被迫害的根源。这种对名家望族没落之路的描写使我们想起了契诃夫的小说。此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的纪实性历史小说《铁皮鼓》(1959年)非常相似。最值得一提的是《红楼梦》和托马斯·曼的《布登勃洛克一家》（1901年）。两部小说都描写了出生富贵的年轻一代人的颓废、没落、溃散，以及一个家族的社会地位和经济状况的逐渐没落与覆灭。托马斯·曼的小说是以资产阶级社会的巨大变革为背景，而曹雪芹的作品则选取了某个朝代的更迭时期作为时代背景，在其中帝王利益与家族利益发生了冲突! 有趣的是，两部作品中的主要角色都挑选了英年早逝的类似人物。《红楼梦》里林黛玉为情而亡，秦可卿因乱伦自尽，贾元春和妙玉也是突然死亡。在《布登勃洛克一家》里克拉拉在婚后不久即死于脑结核，托马斯在牙科手术后去世，汉诺死于伤寒。两部作品都在结构和主题上运用了影射等大量的艺术手法，以丰富的故事进展描绘出一幅衰败的景象。因此，这种并行发展令人惊讶，很难说《布登勃洛克一家》的创作没受到《红楼梦》的影响。
The novel is the embodiment of "the spirit of the times". A Dream of Red Mansions was first published in 1791. Its creation background was the Qing Dynasty under the rule of Manchu, one of China's ethnic minorities. The Cao family was either favored by Kangxi or neglected by Yongzheng, resulting in the decline of property ownership. Constrained by the background of the times, the author could not publicly criticize the imperial power at that time, but in the novel, he sought the root of persecution in the declining family (engaged in Taoism, leisure, poetry creation, art and music, instead of studying in order to make a living) and his failure to realize his expectation of being the heir of the family. This decadent description of declining families reminds us of Chekhov's novels. In addition, the detailed description of the life of all social strata in the early Qing Dynasty in A Dream of Red Mansions is very similar to Gunter Grass's documentary historical novel Tin Drum (1959). The most noteworthy ones are A Dream of Red Mansions and Thomas Mann's Budenbrock Family (1901). Both novels describe the decadence, decline and collapse of the wealthy young generation, as well as the gradual decline and collapse of a family's social status and economic situation. Thomas Mann's novels are set against the background of great changes in bourgeois society, while Cao Xueqin's works choose the change period of a certain dynasty as the background of the times, in which the interests of emperors and families conflict! Interestingly, the main characters in the two works have chosen similar characters who died young. In a Dream of Red Mansions, Lin Daiyu died of love, Qin Keqing committed suicide due to incest, and Jia Yuanchun and Miaoyu also died suddenly. In the Budenbrock Family, Clara died of brain tuberculosis shortly after marriage, Thomas died after dental surgery, and Hanno died of typhoid fever. Both works use a lot of artistic techniques such as innuendo in structure and theme, and depict a declining scene with rich story progress. Therefore, this parallel development is surprising. It is hard to say that the creation of the Budenbroc Family was not influenced by a Dream of Red Mansions.

4.您曾在欧洲多所学校任教，请问现今欧洲汉学的研究状况如何？
You have taught in many European schools. What is the current research status of Sinology in Europe?

=5 为何从古典文学的翻译转向中国现当代文学的翻译？=
除了《红楼梦》这一代表译作之外，您还翻译了包括鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱锺书、韩少功、贾平凹等在内的一批著名作家的优秀作品。可否谈谈为什么选择不同时代作家的作品？您又是如何再现他们不同的写作风格？[This question intends to know about why you choose to translate works of those writers. Is it because of personal interests or the publisher asking you to do so?
I think the section of Xu Zechen serves as good interview answers. As Chinese readers, we are desperate to know what things are like from Westerners’ perspective. ]
为何从古典文学的翻译转向中国现当代文学的翻译？
Why did you shift from the translation of classical literature to the translation of modern and contemporary Chinese literature?
不同时代的作品反映出不同的时代背景，这些作品对我个人而言是很好的窗口，可以窥探不同时期中国的社会面貌，还可与同期的欧洲文学进行比较。贾平凹作为20世纪80年代以来中国最伟大的作家之一，英译本很少。究其原因，首先在于他的作品植根于山西农村，带有浓重的地域风俗习惯。首先读懂原文对译者来说就是一项挑战，更不用提在译入语中找到对应的表达。我在翻译贾平凹的XX中就遇到了这个问题。。。。。。。。[Can you list some difficulties when translating Jia Pingwa’s or any other author’s works? We like the details.]
The works of different times reflect different backgrounds of the times. These works are a good window for me personally. I can spy on the social outlook of China in different periods and compare them with European literature in the same period. Jia Pingwa, as one of the greatest writers in China since 1980s, has few English versions. The reason lies in the fact that his works are rooted in Shanxi rural areas and have strong regional customs. It is a challenge for translators to understand the original text first, not to mention finding the corresponding expression in the target language. I encountered this problem in translating Jia Pingwa's XX. . . . . . . .
对于译者来说，翻译不同作者的作品时面对的翻译难点不同。而不同的译者有着不同的处理方式，这也能解释为何同一部作品有几个翻译版本，且翻译策略各有不同。我深知译者的文化背景对译本翻译策略的选择有很大影响，所以有些作品即便存在译本，我还是选择重新翻译。从鲁迅的短篇小说中，我们可以读出作者内心的矛盾：文学能改变世界吗？难道一定要身体力行才能改变世界吗？难道连唤醒那些像阿Q一样任由自己被牵着走，任人宰割的昏昏欲睡的同胞们也能做到吗？当无法改变自己和社会的命运时，唤醒他们还有什么用呢？作为译者，我们如何再现这种矛盾心理，如何处理鲁迅在翻译中有些古板的早期白话，如何与他对日常政治事件的论述。这些都是翻译中必不可免的问题。目前已有的鲁迅作品德译本在这些方面的处理方式多样。巴金在受到批评后修改了三部曲之一的《家》，删除了缠足现象。在翻译这部作品的过程中，译者必须决定是翻译原版还是删减后的版本。
For translators, translation difficulties are different when translating works of different authors. Different translators have different ways of dealing with it, which can explain why there are several translated versions of the same work and the translation strategies are different. I know that the translator's cultural background has a great influence on the choice of translation strategies, so I choose to retranslate some works even if there are translations. From Lu Xun's short stories, we can read the author's inner contradiction: Can literature change the world? Do you have to practice to change the world? Can we even wake up those sleepy compatriots who let themselves be led and slaughtered like Ah Q? What's the use of awakening them when they can't change their own destiny and that of society? As translators, how do we reproduce this ambivalence, how do we deal with Lu Xun's rigid early vernacular in translation, and how do we communicate with his exposition of daily political events? These are all inevitable problems in translation. At present, the existing German versions of Lu Xun's works deal with these aspects in various ways. After being criticized, Ba Jin revised Home, one of the trilogy, and deleted foot binding. In the process of translating this work, the translator must decide whether to translate the original version or the abridged version.
我个人很喜欢徐则臣的作品。在2009年（北上2015年才出版）[Is this book called <北上>？]的法兰克福书展上，他的故事《北上》受到广泛好评。事实上，他的生活经历与我有些重叠部分。我们都在北京大学学习过，只不过他比我早入学一点（多久）。当时校园里有一种亚文化，博士生们住在餐厅旁边的闲置房间里，因为他们对大学里的人、办事流程了如指掌，而且在独立的诗歌和艺术界也有联系，所以每逢有聚会，他们都很抢手，大家竞相邀请他们参加聚会。那时的大学涌现着一股乐观主义的精神，起初门外涌现出私营商业市场，后来校园里传出“开公司”的口号。那时，毕业生不愿毕业就被分入特定的工作岗位，身上的自由和责任感促使他们闯一闯这个世界。故事里拿着盗版产品的街边小贩和软件开发产品的学生先锋也是这幅画的一部分。徐则臣将这种气氛真实地捕捉到，令人信服。他笔下的人物在我们心上扎根，爱上他们，学会在生活中打拼。也是这种情感体验上的共鸣促使我翻译《北上》这部作品。
Personally, I like Xu Zechen's works very much. At the Frankfurt Book Fair in 2009 (published in 2015), his story "Going North" was widely praised. In fact, his life experience overlaps with mine. We all studied at Peking University, but he entered school a little earlier than me. At that time, there was a subculture on campus. Doctoral students lived in idle rooms next to restaurants. Because they knew the people and procedures in the university like the back of their hand, and they also had contacts in independent poetry and art circles, they were very popular whenever there was a party, and everyone invited them to attend the party. At that time, there was a spirit of optimism in universities. At first, private commercial markets emerged outside the doors. Later, the slogan of "starting a company" came out on campus. At that time, graduates were assigned to specific jobs without graduating, and their freedom and sense of responsibility prompted them to enter the world. Street vendors with pirated products and student pioneers with software development products in the story are also part of this painting. Xu Zechen captured this atmosphere truly and convincingly. His characters take root in our hearts, fall in love with them and learn to work hard in life. It is also this resonance in emotional experience that prompted me to translate the work "North".

=6 跨文化身份=
6. 作为汉学家和翻译家，您的跨文化身份让你置身于东西方文明之间。当您从欧洲文化和文学背景来到中国的文化和文学背景中，在两种迥异的语言之间进行转换，是否感到自己的思维方式和行文风格发生了些许改变？[This question asks you whether living in China for almost eight years affects your translating ideologies? Is there any difference if you only learned Chinese but never lived in China for such a long time? ]

=7 传播中华文化=
根据您的实践经验和理性思考，中华文化外译传播有哪些成功因素?

Basierend auf Ihrer praktischen Erfahrung und Ihrem rationalen Denken, was sind die Erfolgsfaktoren für die Übersetzung und Verbreitung chinesischer Kultur im Ausland?

Woesler: Zunächst einmal muss man schauen, dass man einen Text hat, der in der Zielkultur ‚funktioniert’.

First of all, you have to see that you have a text that 'works' in the target culture.

首先，你要看到你有一个在目标文化中 "有效 "的文本。

Nach Bourdieu kann man die Kultur als ein „Feld“ begreifen, in dem unterschiedliche Agenten wirken und die Währung das „kulturelle Kapital“ ist.

According to Bourdieu, culture can be understood as a 'field' in which different agents operate and the currency is 'cultural capital'.

布尔迪厄认为，文化可以理解为一个 "场域"，在这个场域中，不同的行为主体进行运作，货币就是 "文化资本"。

=8 摆渡人=
您自1990年代来华留学，在华生活多年。作为中西文化的“摆渡人”，您是如何坚持翻译中国经典著作的？您对中德文化交流的未来发展前景有何预见？是否可以给年青一代的汉学家、翻译家提出一些建议？

Sie kamen in den 1990er Jahren zum Studium nach China und leben seit vielen Jahren in China. Wie sind Sie als "Fährmann" zwischen der chinesischen und der westlichen Kultur dazu gekommen, chinesische Klassiker zu übersetzen? Wie sehen Sie die zukünftige Entwicklung des Kulturaustausches zwischen Deutschland und China? Haben Sie einen Rat für die jüngere Generation von Sinologen und Übersetzern?

Als Student war ich erschüttert und verärgert über die Tatsache, dass meine chinesischen Kommilitoninnen und Kommilitonen Goethe, Shakespeare und Heine kannten, aber im Westen kaum jemand Qu Yuan, Li Taibo, Su Dongpo oder Cao Xueqin kannte. Auch wenn im Westen die Übersetzungstätigkeit keine so hohe Anerkennung findet wie wissenschaftliche Forschung über Literatur, sah ich es doch als eine Lebensaufgabe an, mehr Werke der chinesischen Literatur, insbesondere Meisterwerke und Klassiker, ins Deutsche zu übersetzen. Auch habe ich gezielt die junge Generation der Studienabsolventinnen und -absolventen angesprochen und sie für Übersetzungsprojekte gewonnen.

As a student, I was shocked and angered by the fact that my Chinese fellow students knew Goethe, Shakespeare and Heine, but hardly anyone in the West knew Qu Yuan, Li Taibo, Su Dongpo or Cao Xueqin. Even though translation work is not as highly recognized in the West as scholarly research on literature, I saw it as a life's work to translate more works of Chinese literature, especially masterpieces and classics, into German. I also specifically targeted the younger generation of graduate students and recruited them for translation projects.

在学生时代，我对中国同学知道歌德、莎士比亚、海涅，而西方几乎没有人知道屈原、李泰波、苏东坡、曹雪芹感到震惊和烦恼。尽管翻译工作在西方不像文学学术研究那样受到高度重视，但我把把更多的中国文学作品，特别是名著和经典作品翻译成德文看作是毕生的事业。我还专门针对年轻一代的毕业生，招聘他们参与翻译项目。

Natürlich ist dies vom Charakter her eine dienende Aufgabe, eine Dienstleistung. Aber ohne diese Dienstleistung kann Forschung nicht entstehen. Es tut der deutschen Kultur gut, etwas mehr von der chinesischen Kultur zu erfahren. Und die deutsche Bevölkerung, die in der Regel kein Chinesisch versteht, kann ihren ersten Zugang durch Übersetzungen erhalten. Für die professionelle Beschäftigung mit chinesischer Literatur ist dann natürlich der Erwerb chinesischer Sprachkenntnisse zu empfehlen, da das Lesen des Originals immer authentischer ist als das Lesen der Übersetzung.

Of course, in character this is a serving task, a service. But without this service, research cannot emerge. It is good for German culture to learn a little more about Chinese culture. And the German population, which usually does not understand Chinese, can get its first access through translations. For the professional study of Chinese literature, the acquisition of Chinese language skills is then of course recommended, since reading the original is always more authentic than reading the translation.

当然，就其特点而言，这是一个服务性的任务，是一种服务。但如果没有这种服务，研究就无法发展。多了解一下中国文化，对德国文化有好处。而德国民众通常不懂中文，他们可以通过翻译获得第一手资料。那么，对于专业从事中国文学创作的人来说，当然建议掌握汉语能力，因为读原著永远比读译著更真实。

Das Bild des Fährmanns in der Frage ist ein gutes Bild, es ist auch typisches Motiv der Weltliteratur. Es gibt Fährmänner in vielen alten Kulturen, da die Menschen entlang von Flüssen wanderten und die Flüsse nicht immer so seicht waren, dass man über eine Furt hinüberkam. Das Bild von Fährmännern war traditionell positiv, sie waren in Europa auch sprichwörtlich bekannte gute Zuhörer.

The image of the ferryman in the question is a good image, it is also typical motif of world literature. There are ferrymen in many ancient cultures because people migrated along rivers and rivers were not always shallow enough to cross over a ford. The image of ferrymen was traditionally positive, they were also proverbially known good listeners in Europe.

题中的摆渡人形象很好，这也是世界文学中的典型主题。很多古代文化中都有摆渡人，因为人们在河边游荡，河水不一定都很浅，不一定能渡过一个渡口。摆渡人的形象历来是正面的，他们在欧洲也是俗称的好听话。

In der Literatur berichtet schon vor fast 5000 Jahren (2600 v. Chr.) der Gilgamesh-Epos vom Fährmann Ur-šanabi, der den König über die Wasser des Todes bringt. Dem Fährmann kommt eine wichtige Rolle zu. Er ist Verbindung zwischen zwei Welten. Tatsächlich ist schon der Dichter oder Schriftsteller selbst ein Fährmann, er weiß den Lesern aus seinem Reich der Gedanken, Träume und Vorstellungen zu berichten und entführt ihn für die Dauer des Lesens in dieses Reich.

In literature, almost 5000 years ago (2600 BC), the Gilgamesh epic tells of the ferryman Ur-šanabi, who takes the king across the waters of death. The ferryman has an important role. He is a link between two worlds. In fact, the poet or writer himself is a ferryman, he knows how to tell the reader from his realm of thoughts, dreams and imaginations and takes him into this realm for the duration of the reading.

在文学作品中，早在近5000年前(公元前2600年)，《吉尔伽美什》史诗就讲述了摆渡人乌尔-萨纳比带国王渡过死亡之水的故事。摆渡人有着重要的作用。他是两个世界的纽带。其实，诗人或作家本身就是一个摆渡人，他懂得把自己的思想境界、梦想和想象告诉读者，并在阅读过程中把读者带入这个境界。

=9 译研结合=
作为世界汉学研究会会长，您组织了多场与汉学相关的国际会议，包括一年一度的世界汉学研究大会（WACS），持续向世界展示中华文化的魅力。您既是译者，又是研究者，您如何看待这两个身份之间的转换？您对从事译研结合的学者有何建议吗？

Als Präsident der World Association for Chinese Studies (WACS) haben Sie mehrere internationale Konferenzen im Zusammenhang mit Chinastudien organisiert, darunter den jährlichen Weltkongress für Chinastudien (WACS), der der Welt weiterhin den Charme der chinesischen Kultur vor Augen führt. Sie sind sowohl Übersetzer als auch Forscher, wie sehen Sie den Übergang zwischen diesen beiden Identitäten? Haben Sie einen Rat für Wissenschaftler, die sich mit der Kombination von Übersetzung und Forschung beschäftigen?

Woesler: Im Westen werden Wissenschaftler in der Regel höher angesehen als Übersetzer. Die Arbeit des Übersetzers ist aber dennoch wichtig, da die Wissenschaft auf die Erschließung der Quellen angewiesen ist und da vor allem die breite Öffentlichkeit ohne Übersetzungen die fremdsprachige Literatur nicht kennenlernen und verstehen könnte.

Woesler: In the West, scientists are generally held in higher esteem than translators. The work of the translator is nevertheless important, since science depends on the development of the sources and since above all the general public could not get to know and understand the foreign-language literature without translations.

吴漠汀：在西方，学者的地位普遍高于翻译家。不过，译者的工作还是很重要的，因为科学有赖于源头的发展，最重要的是，如果没有翻译，大众就无法认识和了解外文文献。

Wissenschaftler, die Übersetzungen kritisieren, wie es z.B. jetzt in China Mode wird, verschiedene englischsprachige Übersetzungen des Traums der Roten Kammer zu kritisieren, sollten auch einmal selbst als Schriftsteller und als Übersetzer arbeiten. Zudem sollte man am besten nur Übersetzungen in die eigene Sprache kritisieren. Eine Übersetzung in eine Zielsprache zu kritisieren, verlangt extrem viele Voraussetzungen, die kaum jemand in China mit sich bringt. Wenn man seine Ausgangssprache gut beherrscht, steht der Wissenschaftler hier auf sicherem Boden, er kann Nebenbedeutungen und Nuancen erkennen und die Angemessenheit von Wortwahl, Stil etc. besser einschätzen.

Scholars who criticize translations, as is now the fashion in China, for example, to criticize various English-language translations of the Dream of the Red Chamber, should also work as writers and as translators themselves for once. Moreover, it is best to criticize only translations into one's own language. Criticizing a translation into a target language requires an extremely large number of prerequisites that hardly anyone in China has. If one has a good command of one's source language, the scholar is on safer ground here; he or she can recognize secondary meanings and nuances and better assess the appropriateness of word choice, style, and so on.

像中国现在流行的批评翻译的学者，比如批评《红楼梦》的各种英译本，有的时候也应该以作家本身和译者的身份工作。此外，最好只批评翻译成自己语言的作品。批评翻译成目标语言需要极多的前提，而在中国几乎没有人具备。如果一个人对自己的源语言掌握得很好，那么学者在这里就比较安全，能够识别次要的含义和细微的差别，更好地评估选词、文体等是否恰当。

Wenn ich jedes Jahr über 100 Kolleginnen und Kollegen zu Vorträgen über ihr Fachgebiet einlade, so vor allem aus dem Grund, weil ich denke, dass man sein Leben lang lernen kann, dass man von Kolleginnen und Kollegen lernen kann und seinen Horizont durch mehr Perspektiven und die Diskussionen am Rande der Konferenz erweitert.

When I invite more than 100 colleagues to lecture on their field every year, it is mainly because I think that one can learn throughout one's life, that one can learn from colleagues and broaden one's horizons through more perspectives and the discussions on the sidelines of the conference.

我每年邀请100多位同事到自己的领域讲课，主要是觉得人的一生都是可以学习的，通过更多的视角和会议间隙的讨论，可以向同事学习，拓宽自己的视野。

=10 国际汉学中心=
您是湖南师范大学“潇湘学者”特聘教授，并担任国际汉学中心主任。请问：该中心主要从事工作？您未来计划开展哪些项目推动中德文化交流？

Sie sind ein angesehener Professor der Hunan Normal University und der Direktor des Zentrums für Internationale Chinawissenschaften. Was ist die Hauptaufgabe des Zentrums? Welche zukünftigen Projekte planen Sie, um den kulturellen Austausch zwischen Deutschland und China zu fördern?

Woesler: Das Zentrum für Internationale Chinawissenschaften ist eine Brücke zwischen der heimischen Guoxue und den ausländischen Chinawissenschaften. In diesem Forum können sich Wissenschaftler aus der ganzen Welt mit ihren unterschiedlichen Perspektiven zum Austausch und zur Zusammenarbeit treffen.

Woesler: The Center for International China Studies is a bridge between domestic Guoxue and foreign China studies. In this forum, scholars from all over the world with their different perspectives can meet for exchange and cooperation.

吴漠汀：国际汉学研究中心是国内国学与对外汉语研究的桥梁。在这个论坛上，来自世界各地的学者带着各自不同的观点，可以聚在一起交流合作。

Aus Hongkong haben wir die US-Amerikanerin Margaret Chu gewinnen können, die nebenberuflich als Senior Fellow Kontakte pflegt und Beiträge evaluiert und verbessert. Sie ist gerade Anfang 2021 als Associate Professorin an die Macao University of Science and Technology berufen worden.

From Hong Kong, we have been able to attract Margaret Chu from the US, who is a part-time Senior Fellow who maintains contacts and evaluates and improves contributions. She has just been appointed as an Associate Professor at Macao University of Science and Technology in early 2021.

我们从香港吸引了来自美国的Margaret Chu，她是兼职高级研究员，负责保持联系，评估和改进贡献。她刚刚在2021年初被聘为澳门科技大学副教授。

Ms. Chu has also brought many colleagues into the network, including from Oxford, California, and Massachusetts.

Frau Chu hat auch viele Kollegen, unter anderem aus Oxford, Kalifornien und Massachusetts, ins Netzwerk geholt.

朱女士还将许多同事带进了网络，包括来自牛津、加州和马萨诸塞州的同事。

Aus Deutschland haben vier Kollegen einen Ruf auf Professuren am Foreign Studies College angenommen, darunter zwei Sinologen, die das Zentrum verstärken: Der Philosoph Ole Döring aus Karlsruhe und der Historiker Cord Eberspächer aus Düsseldorf, der das dortige Konfuzius-Institut als Direktor geleitet hat.

From Germany, four colleagues have accepted appointments to professorships at the Foreign Studies College, including two Sinologists who are strengthening the center: Philosopher Ole Döring from Karlsruhe and historian Cord Eberspächer from Düsseldorf, who was director of the Confucius Institute there.

来自德国的四位同事已经接受了外国语学院教授职位的任命，其中包括两位加强中心的汉学家。哲学家Ole Döring来自卡尔斯鲁厄，历史学家Cord Eberspächer来自杜塞尔多夫，他曾在那里担任孔子学院院长。

Wir alle, zusammen mit Kolleginnen und Kollegen aus Russland, den USA, und verschiedenen Staaten in Europa, arbeiten gemeinsam an einer "Geschichte der Chinawissenschaften", die mit einem Übersichtsband sowie 10 Einzelbänden konzipiert ist. Sie soll zeitgleich auf Englisch, Deutsch und Chinesisch erscheinen.

All of us, together with colleagues from Russia, the USA, and various countries in Europe, are working together on a "History of Chinese Studies", which is conceived with an overview volume as well as 10 individual volumes. It is to be published simultaneously in English, German and Chinese.

我们大家和俄罗斯、美国以及欧洲各国的同仁一起，正在共同编写 "中国研究史"，构思中的 "中国研究史 "有一卷总论，也有十卷单行本。该书将以英文、德文和中文同时出版。

In einem anderen Projekt beschäftigt sich das Zentrum mit der Geschichte der Auseinandersetzung mit den Vier Großen Romanen und insbesondere mit dem Traum der Roten Kammer im Ausland, insbesondere im Westen.

In another project, the Center is looking at the history of engagement with the Four Great Novels and, in particular, the Dream of the Red Chamber abroad, especially in the West.

在另一个项目中，该中心正在研究四大名著，特别是《红楼梦》在国外，尤其是在西方的参与历史。

Im Bereich moderne Literatur schauen wir uns Lu Xun an, unter anderem seine Bekanntschaft mit europäischen Schriftstellern und Reform-Pädagogen. Auch Qian Zhongshu ist aus Sicht der internationalen Chinawissenschaften interessant, seine Texte sind voller Bezüge auf westliche Literatur.

In the area of modern literature, we look at Lu Xun, including his acquaintance with European writers and reform educators. Qian Zhongshu is also interesting from the perspective of international Chinese studies; his texts are full of references to Western literature.

在现代文学中，我们看鲁迅，包括他与欧洲作家和改革教育家的相识。从国际汉学的角度看，钱钟书也很有意思，他的文章中充满了对西方文学的引用。

Das Zentrum unterstützt die Übersetzung chinesischer Bücher ins Englische und Deutsche. So wurden zahlreiche Romane, Erzählungen und Sachbücher übersetzt.

The Center supports the translation of Chinese books into English and German. Thus, numerous novels, short stories and non-fiction books have been translated.

中心支持将中文书籍翻译成英语和德语。因此，翻译了许多小说、短篇小说和非小说类书籍。

=11. 曹雪芹和跨国文化=
从跨国文化的角度看曹雪芹你有合想法？

Woesler: Cao Xueqin and even more his protagonist Jia Baoyu both are early humanists, universalists and world citizens. The Red Chamber Dreams function worldwide. The Dream is a complex showroom of diverse aspects of Chinese cultures and is the embodiment and essence of Chinese cultures, but it has also a global impact, therefore it should be honoured as “World Documentary Heritage”.

吴漠汀：曹雪芹，尤其是他的主人公贾宝玉，都是早期的人文主义者，普世主义者和世界公民。《红楼梦》具有普世价值。《红楼梦》综合展示了中国的多元文化，是中国文化的集中体现和精华，同时在全球范围内产生影响，理应列入世界记忆遗产名录。

Cao Xueqin’s message is not simply the one of “Paradise Lost”, instead he himself made the best out of his life. Although being less wealthy than when his family still enjoyed the favour of the emperor, there was a payroll system and a social net intact in Early Qing China, where he received enough income to be independent from his rich relatives, to be selective on accepting jobs, to live a relaxed life in a small house in the nature, spending time with his family and friends, follow his own interests, like reading, writing and drinking wine, making kites for the children and thinking of the disadvantaged.

曹雪芹所传达的信息并不是简单的“失乐园”，相反，他把自己的生活过得很好。虽然比起他的家族享受皇帝的宠爱，他过得没有那么富裕，但清初中国有一套薪俸制度和一张完整的社会网，他获得了足够的收入，可以独立于富贵亲戚，可以有选择性地接受工作，可以在大自然的小房子里过着悠闲的生活，可以与家人和朋友共度时光，可以追随自己的兴趣，例如读书，写作和饮酒，可以为孩子们做风筝，可以为弱势群体着想。

Cao Xueqin was fully aware of his time and China’s cultural achievements, he was familiar with the different levels of society, he was a detailed observer and skilful narrator. He may have conceptualized the ending of the novel as a discussion about the different personalities of the characters in the novel and therefore displaying his reflection about life and his psychological understanding of the diversity of human nature. He was able to grasp the “spirit of time” (Zeitgeist) and with his autobiographical experience create an eternal coming-of-age novel not just for his family, for the Qing-Chinese, for Chinese people, but for mankind.

曹雪芹对自己所处的时代和中国的文化成就了如指掌，他熟悉社会的不同层面，他是一个细致的观察者和娴熟的叙述者。因此，他在小说中对人的不同个性的理解和对小说中人物性格的多样性进行了概念化的探讨。他能够把握“时代精神”，用他的自传体经历，不仅为他的家庭，为清朝的中国人，为中国人民，而且为人类，创作了一部永恒的成人小说。

This tradition of Coming-of-age novels is also a European one, like enlightenment philosopher Voltaire’s novel Candide or Optimism《老实人》shows at the very same time (1759) in Europe. Also Voltaire’s Candide has to leave the luxurious paradise of his childhood and strives for true love, but his main learning is more pessimistic, since Voltaire wrote the novel in opposition to Leibniz, who optimistically looked to China as “the best of all worlds”. Recent research findings show that China had a much larger influence on European enlightenment philosophers and we can be sure, that also Cao Xueqin was aware of some European literary traditions.

这种成熟的传统小说也是一个欧洲人,像启蒙运动哲学家伏尔泰在欧洲同时间出版的的小说《老实人》(1759年)。伏尔泰笔下的老实人不得不离开童年的奢华天堂，为追求真爱而奋斗，但他的主要学习内容却更为悲观，因为伏尔泰的小说与莱布尼茨截然相反，莱布尼茨乐观地认为中国是“所有世界中最好的”。最近的研究发现，中国对欧洲启蒙运动哲学家的影响要大得多，我们可以肯定，曹雪芹对欧洲的一些文学传统也有所了解。

=12. 《红楼梦》跟今天国内外的读者有什么关系？=

Woesler: The novel is an embodiment of “Zeitgeist”.

吴漠汀：小说作为 "时代精神 "的体现。

According to Georg Lukács’ Theory of the Novel, while the Epos (like Homer’s Ilias, which like the Dream reasons the stories in the divine realm) displayed a holistic world experience, a complete, self-contained culture, the novel displays, that the modern world has become infinitely large and has lost its homely quality.

根据格奥尔格-卢卡奇的小说理论，虽然Epos（像荷马的伊利亚斯，它像梦理由神界的故事）展示了一个整体的世界经验，一个完整的，自足的文化，小说展示，现代世界已经变得无限大，已经失去了它的家的品质。

The novel as a genre is no longer documenting just one culture, but represents, with the words of Walter Benjamin, the Organon of History. So the understanding of the novel changed with Lukacs to historical-philosophically. A novel is understood as typical for its historical era, the novel embodies the spirit of the epoch (Zeitgeist).

小说作为一种文体，不再只是记录一种文化，而是用瓦尔特-本雅明的话说，代表了历史的有机体。所以，对小说的理解随着卢卡奇的改变，变成了历史哲学的理解。小说被理解为其历史时代的典型，小说体现了时代精神（Zeitgeist）。

The Red Chamber Dreams are written in front of the background of the Manchu minority having taken over the power in formerly Han-shaped Ming-China (which was a multi-ethnic and crosscultural society) and families suffering the changing favor of changing emperors, with the Cao family being fostered by Kangxi and being persecuted by Yongzheng.

《红楼梦》写的是满族少数民族在原汉字形的明中国（这是一个多民族、跨文化的社会）掌握了政权，家庭遭受换代皇帝的宠爱，曹家被康熙扶植，被雍正迫害的背景前。

While the author in his time could not criticize the system and power of emperors, in the novel he came to terms with this life by seeking the guilt for the persecution in the growing decadence of the family (engaging in Daoism, leisure, poetry-writing, arts and music instead of learning for being able to earn a living) and in himself not fulfilling the expectations as the family heir. This description of decadence of a declining family reminds us of the novels of Tschechov (and e.g. in the Buddenbrooks by Mann, including the turn to arts and music).

虽然作者在他的时代无法批判帝制和皇权，但在小说中，他为家族的日益衰败（参加道教、娱乐、诗歌、艺术和音乐活动，而不是为了谋生而学习）和自己作为家族继承人没有实现家族期望感到自责，通过这样做，他也对这种生活做妥协。这种对没落家族颓废状况的描写，让我们想起了契诃夫的小说（如曼恩的《布登布鲁克》，包括对艺术和音乐的转向）

Moreover, with the detailed description of life on all social levels in early Qing Dynasty, the Dream appears as a documentary historical novel very much like Günter Grass’ The Tin Drum 1959.

此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的《铁皮鼓1959》非常相似，《铁皮鼓1959》是一部纪实历史小说。

=13 中德文化交流=
我们非常感佩您对中华文化的热爱、对推动中德文化交流做出的突出贡献！再次感谢您接受我的访问！祝您多结学术硕果！

Wir bewundern Ihre Liebe zur chinesischen Kultur und Ihren herausragenden Beitrag zur Förderung des kulturellen Austauschs zwischen Deutschland und China! Nochmals vielen Dank für dieses Interview! Ich wünsche Ihnen viele akademische Erfolge!

Woesler: Vielen Dank! Tatsächlich sehe ich es als eine der wichtigsten Aufgaben unserer Zeit, Menschen zusammenzubringen. Viele Nationen sind stolz auf ihre Kultur. Inzwischen wissen wir, dass keine Kultur besser oder schlechter ist als eine andere. Aber es ist faszinierend, und es fördert unsere Entwicklung als Individuen und als Menschheit insgesamt, von den verschiedenen Kulturen zu wissen. Wenn sich wie ich als Deutscher in die chinesische Kultur, auf der ganzen Welt Chinesen in andere Kulturen und Angehörige anderer Kulturen in die chinesische verlieben, so führt dies zu einer Bereicherung und einem Erblühen menschlicher Kultur insgesamt. So können die Menschen das Beste, das in ihnen steckt verwirklichen: Respekt und Toleranz.

Woesler: Thank you very much! Indeed, I see it as one of the most important tasks of our time to bring people together. Many nations are proud of their culture. By now we know that no culture is better or worse than another. But it is fascinating, and it promotes our development as individuals and as humanity as a whole, to know about the different cultures. If, like me as a German, Chinese people fall in love with Chinese culture, and all over the world Chinese people fall in love with other cultures, and members of other cultures fall in love with Chinese culture, this leads to an enrichment and blossoming of human culture as a whole. In this way, people can realize the best that is within them: Respect and tolerance.

吴漠汀：非常感谢你! 的确，我认为这是我们这个时代最重要的任务之一，就是把人们团结起来。许多国家都以自己的文化为荣。现在我们知道，没有任何一种文化比另一种文化更好或更差。但它是迷人的，它能促进我们作为个人和整个人类的发展，了解不同的文化。当像我这个德国人一样，中国人爱上了中国文化，全世界的中国人爱上了其他文化，其他文化的成员爱上了中国文化，这就导致了整个人类文化的丰富和绽放。这样，人们才能实现自己内心的最佳状态。尊重和宽容。

=Notes about the intercultural approach=
==《红楼梦》与其他世界文学作品的相似性——推荐《红楼梦》列入世界记忆遗产名录 Commonness between the Red Chamber Dreams and other World Literature Novels – Proposing the Red Chamber Dreams to the World Documentary Heritage List==

吴漠汀，湖南师范大学 Martin Woesler, Hunan Normal University

==Abstract==
In every culture, readers associate the literature they know with new literature they read. So literature is always cumulative, it grows out of existing literature and can refer back to it. When Western readers read the Red Chamber Dreams, they foremost associate novels and other pieces of literature of their own cultural tradition with the Dreams. This has also influenced the first full translation into German.
Cao Xueqin and even more his protagonist Jia Baoyu both are early humanists, universalists and world citizens. The Red Chamber Dreams function worldwide. The Dream is a complex showroom of diverse aspects of Chinese cultures and is the embodiment and essence of Chinese cultures, but it has also a global impact, therefore it should be honoured as “World Documentary Heritage”.

==Key words==
Western culture, reception tradition, German translation, Embodiment of Chinese cultures, global compatibility, World Documentary Heritage

==摘要==
在每一种文化中，读者都会把他们读到的新文学与已知文学联系起来，所以文学总是积累的，它从现有的文学中生长出来，并以已有文学为参考。西方读者在阅读《红楼梦》时，首先会把《红楼梦》与自身文化传统中的小说和其他文学作品联系起来，这也影响了首次德语全译本。
曹雪芹，尤其是他的主人公贾宝玉，都是早期的人文主义者，普世主义者和世界公民。《红楼梦》具有普世价值。《红楼梦》综合展示了中国的多元文化，是中国文化的集中体现和精华，同时在全球范围内产生影响，理应列入世界记忆遗产名录。

==关键词==

西方文化，传统保护，德国翻译，中国文化具像化表现，全球兼容，世界遗产文献 --Weiyafei (talk) 07:10, 28 December 2020 (UTC)Wei yafei

==1. Chinese Ethics==

To help the poor and disadvantaged belongs to the traditional core values of Chinese culture.

When we sit in the Beijing Subway today, the loudspeaker announcement reminds us, that it is Chinese traditional ethics to give seats to the disadvantaged (老弱病残孕让座是中国传统道德). We know of Cao Xueqin, that he supported the poor and disadvantaged, and that he made kites for children.

However, when we look closer at these “Chinese Ethics”, we discover, that they are claimed also in Indian Buddhism “karuna” and in the Christian tradition of “caritas” and in almost every civilization. Therefore, we might call these values “human ethics”.

中国伦理“扶贫济困”是中国文化的传统核心价值观。当我们今天坐在北京地铁时，扬声器的公告提醒我们，让弱势群体有座位是中国传统道德。我们知道曹雪芹，他支持穷人和处境不利的人，他为孩子们制作风筝。但是，当我们仔细观察这些“中国伦理学”时，我们发现，印度佛教“ karuna”，基督教的“明爱”传统以及几乎所有文明中也都声称拥有它们。因此，我们可以将这些价值观称为“人类道德”。--Wen Xiaoyi (talk) 15:24, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

==2. Compatibility Why do the Red Chamber Dreams function worldwide and have achieved world literature status even in their translations?==

2. 兼容性为什么《红楼梦》在世界范围内广泛流传，甚至在翻译领域中也取得了世界文学的地位？

First of all, the Red Chamber Dreams are, like novels worldwide, a piece of entertainment literature. In comparison to the drama, in which every element is compulsory and plays its part in the overall structure, in the novel the line of action itself is simpler and not so important, most of the scenes or episodes are loosely put together and fit in the broader theme of the novel.

首先，《红楼梦》和世界小说一样，是一部娱乐文学。与戏剧中的每一个元素都是强制性的，在整体结构中起作用的戏剧相比，小说的行动路线本身更简单，也不那么重要，大部分场景或情节都松散地组合在一起，这和小说更广泛的主题相吻合。

However, the lose arrangement of episodes of the Dreams comes from the tradition of almost unconnected episodes like in the Shuihuzhuan and is a step towards the greater coherence of the episodes, the aligning into a story line and the greater concentration on fewer protagonists. Therefore, the Dreams show clearly a step towards the Western tradition of novels, maybe because of growing Western influence in Qing dynasty.

然而，《红楼梦》章回结构不连续来自于《水浒传》中几乎没有联系的章回的传统，这是朝着章回更连贯、与故事线一致以及更集中于较少主角的方向迈出的一步。因此，《红楼梦》明显向西方小说传统迈进了一步，可能是因为西方对清代的影响越来越大。

==3. Impact of translator’s native culture on the translation process==

3.译者的本土文化对翻译过程的影响

There are intercultural parallels between the Red Chamber Dreams and Western works of literature.

《红楼梦》和西方文学作品之间有跨国文化的相似之处。

These parallels are fundamental for the translation and were explicitly and implicitly fundamental for the German translator Martin Woesler during his translation and editorial work on the first full German translation. In the following, I will mention some of the Western novels and pieces of literature, which the Western reader of the Dreams will immediately think of.

这些相似之处是翻译的根本，也是德文译者马丁-沃斯勒在翻译和编辑第一部德文全译本时明确和隐含的根本。下面，我将提到一些西方的小说和文学作品，西方的读者读到梦会立即想到这些作品。

==4. The novel as embodiment of “Zeitgeist”==

4. 小说作为 "时代精神 "的体现。

According to Georg Lukács’ Theory of the Novel, while the Epos (like Homer’s Ilias, which like the Dream reasons the stories in the divine realm) displayed a holistic world experience, a complete, self-contained culture, the novel displays, that the modern world has become infinitely large and has lost its homely quality.

根据格奥尔格-卢卡奇的小说理论，虽然Epos（像荷马的伊利亚斯，它像梦理由神界的故事）展示了一个整体的世界经验，一个完整的，自足的文化，小说展示，现代世界已经变得无限大，已经失去了它的家的品质。

The novel as a genre is no longer documenting just one culture, but represents, with the words of Walter Benjamin, the Organon of History. So the understanding of the novel changed with Lukacs to historical-philosophically. A novel is understood as typical for its historical era, the novel embodies the spirit of the epoch (Zeitgeist).

小说作为一种文体，不再只是记录一种文化，而是用瓦尔特-本雅明的话说，代表了历史的有机体。所以，对小说的理解随着卢卡奇的改变，变成了历史哲学的理解。小说被理解为其历史时代的典型，小说体现了时代精神（Zeitgeist）。

The Red Chamber Dreams are written in front of the background of the Manchu minority having taken over the power in formerly Han-shaped Ming-China (which was a multi-ethnic and crosscultural society) and families suffering the changing favor of changing emperors, with the Cao family being fostered by Kangxi and being persecuted by Yongzheng.

《红楼梦》写的是满族少数民族在原汉字形的明中国（这是一个多民族、跨文化的社会）掌握了政权，家庭遭受换代皇帝的宠爱，曹家被康熙扶植，被雍正迫害的背景前。

While the author in his time could not criticize the system and power of emperors, in the novel he came to terms with this life by seeking the guilt for the persecution in the growing decadence of the family (engaging in Daoism, leisure, poetry-writing, arts and music instead of learning for being able to earn a living) and in himself not fulfilling the expectations as the family heir. This description of decadence of a declining family reminds us of the novels of Tschechov (and e.g. in the Buddenbrooks by Mann, including the turn to arts and music).

虽然作者在他的时代无法批判帝制和皇权，但在小说中，他为家族的日益衰败（参加道教、娱乐、诗歌、艺术和音乐活动，而不是为了谋生而学习）和自己作为家族继承人没有实现家族期望感到自责，通过这样做，他也对这种生活做妥协。这种对没落家族颓废状况的描写，让我们想起了契诃夫的小说（如曼恩的《布登布鲁克》，包括对艺术和音乐的转向）

Moreover, with the detailed description of life on all social levels in early Qing Dynasty, the Dream appears as a documentary historical novel very much like Günter Grass’ The Tin Drum 1959.

此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的《铁皮鼓1959》非常相似，《铁皮鼓1959》是一部纪实历史小说。

==5. Coming-of-age and Alienation==

5. 成熟和异化

Abandoning the paradise-like garden in the Red Chamber Dreams is a symbol for leaving the protected childhood and arriving in the complex world of adults. With George Lukács theory of the novel, the protagonist starts to problematize the sense of his life, in the novel, the protagonist’s self permanently struggles with his environment.

抛弃《红楼梦》中天堂般的花园，是离开受保护的童年，进入复杂的成人世界的象征。随着乔治·卢卡奇的小说理论，主人公开始对他的生活感觉产生疑问，在小说中，主人公的自我一直与他的环境作斗争。

However, Cao Xueqin’s message is not simply the one of “Paradise Lost”, instead he himself made the best out of his life. Although being less wealthy than when his family still enjoyed the favour of the emperor, there was a payroll system and a social net intact in Early Qing China, where he received enough income to be independent from his rich relatives, to be selective on accepting jobs, to live a relaxed life in a small house in the nature, spending time with his family and friends, follow his own interests, like reading, writing and drinking wine, making kites for the children and thinking of the disadvantaged.

然而，曹雪芹所传达的信息并不是简单的“失乐园”，相反，他把自己的生活过得很好。虽然比起他的家族享受皇帝的宠爱，他过得没有那么富裕，但清初中国有一套薪俸制度和一张完整的社会网，他获得了足够的收入，可以独立于富贵亲戚，可以有选择性地接受工作，可以在大自然的小房子里过着悠闲的生活，可以与家人和朋友共度时光，可以追随自己的兴趣，例如读书，写作和饮酒，可以为孩子们做风筝，可以为弱势群体着想。

Cao Xueqin was fully aware of his time and China’s cultural achievements, he was familiar with the different levels of society, he was a detailed observer and skilful narrator. He may have conceptualized the ending of the novel as a discussion about the different personalities of the characters in the novel and therefore displaying his reflection about life and his psychological understanding of the diversity of human nature. He was able to grasp the “spirit of time” (Zeitgeist) and with his autobiographical experience create an eternal coming-of-age novel not just for his family, for the Qing-Chinese, for Chinese people, but for mankind.

曹雪芹对自己所处的时代和中国的文化成就了如指掌，他熟悉社会的不同层面，他是一个细致的观察者和娴熟的叙述者。因此，他在小说中对人的不同个性的理解和对小说中人物性格的多样性进行了概念化的探讨。他能够把握“时代精神”，用他的自传体经历，不仅为他的家庭，为清朝的中国人，为中国人民，而且为人类，创作了一部永恒的成人小说。

This tradition of Coming-of-age novels is also a European one, like enlightenment philosopher Voltaire’s novel Candide or Optimism《老实人》shows at the very same time (1759) in Europe. Also Voltaire’s Candide has to leave the luxurious paradise of his childhood and strives for true love, but his main learning is more pessimistic, since Voltaire wrote the novel in opposition to Leibniz, who optimistically looked to China as “the best of all worlds”. Recent research findings show that China had a much larger influence on European enlightenment philosophers and we can be sure, that also Cao Xueqin was aware of some European literary traditions.

这种成熟的传统小说也是一个欧洲人,像启蒙运动哲学家伏尔泰在欧洲同时间出版的的小说《老实人》(1759年)。伏尔泰笔下的老实人不得不离开童年的奢华天堂，为追求真爱而奋斗，但他的主要学习内容却更为悲观，因为伏尔泰的小说与莱布尼茨截然相反，莱布尼茨乐观地认为中国是“所有世界中最好的”。最近的研究发现，中国对欧洲启蒙运动哲学家的影响要大得多，我们可以肯定，曹雪芹对欧洲的一些文学传统也有所了解。

Also the German readership is familiar with the chronological following of the life of the protagonist and his development, the fate of a family over generations, the German readership knows this type of novel as the “Education novel” or “Coming-of-age-novel”. In Germany, the genre of the coming-of-age novel has a long tradition and it is shaped more by single characters, who appear as teachers (Goethe: Wilhelm Meister’s Apprenticeship威廉·麦斯特的学徒岁月 1795-96, Novalis 诺瓦利斯: Heinrich von Ofterdingen 《海因利·封·歐福特丁根》1802).

德国读者对主人公的生平及其发展、家族世代的命运都很熟悉，德国读者把这种类型的小说称为“教育小说”或“成长小说”。在德国,关于成长小说的体裁有着悠久的传统,它的形状更由单个字符,它更多的是被塑造为教师的单个人物(歌德：'Wilhelm Meister’s Apprenticeship威廉·麦斯特的学徒岁月 1795-96, Novalis 诺瓦利斯: Heinrich von Ofterdingen《海因利·封·歐福特丁根》1802)。

Wilhelm Meister, parallely to Jia Baoyu, is struggling with the traditional education, in Wilhelm Meister this is represented with the classics revived in Shakespeare’s dramas. Tradition can give orientation, but the personality of the protagonist needs to develop through emancipation is a wisdom, we can learn from all mentioned novels including the Dreams.

==6. Pornography and True Love, female rivals==

Sexuality is a basic human need and has developed into different shapes in all cultures. The German audience is familiar with erotic topics from the Middle Ages, in which sexuality was stylized. In the “Schwänke” of the 15th century (Wittenwielers Ring), erotic scenes are described sexually explicit.

与贾宝玉一样，威廉·迈斯特也在与传统教育作斗争，在《威廉·迈斯特》中，莎士比亚戏剧中复兴的经典作品代表了这一点。传统可以给予导向，但主人公的个性需要通过解放来发展是一种智慧，我们可以从包括《梦》在内的所有小说中学习。 “6。色情与真爱，女性对手" 性是人类的一种基本需求，在各种文化中形成了不同的形态。德国观众熟悉中世纪的情色话题，在这些话题中，性是程式化的。在15世纪的“Schwanke”(Wittenwielers Ring)中，情色场景被描述为露骨的性。

In the barock literature of the 17th century even the physical act is described extensively.

在17世纪的Barock文学中，甚至对物理行为也进行了广泛的描述。

According to „cumulativity“, every human being is a product of history and literature is based on previous literature, therefore the author of this pager thinks that this background has to be taken into account while translating.

根据“累积性”，每个人都是历史的产物，而文学是基于先前的文献，因此，该传呼机的作者认为翻译时必须考虑这一背景。

The best study on qing passion in the Dreams is the one by Anthony Yu, who understood it as desire and as the central motif of the Dreams. „The centrality of qing in shaping virtually every aspect of The Story of the Stone’s structure and meaning cannot be denied [...].“ (Anthony Yu 2001, 54).

关于梦中关于“情”最好的研究是安东尼·于（Anthony Yu）的研究，他将其理解为欲望和梦的中心主题。 “清香在塑造《石头的故事》的结构和意义的几乎每个方面的中心作用都不能否认。”（Anthony Yu 2001，54）。

In the framework story of the Dreams, the narrator consciously takes a stand against low-action and stereotypical pornographic literature as well as against the widespread romance novels (with the classic roles of the beautiful, talented woman and the poor scholar who finally achieves a respected position and prosperity by passing a civil service exam).

在《梦》的框架故事中，叙述者有意识地反对低俗的动作和陈规定型的色情文学，反对流传甚广的浪漫小说（以美丽的才女和通过公务员制度最终获得受人尊敬的地位的穷困书生为经典角色）。

In chapter 1 he says: ”of the true feelings of young people [...] nobody has reported about so far.”

在第一章中，他说：“关于年轻人的真实感受，[……]到目前为止还没有人报道过。”

Erotic scenes are described in a decent and associative way (“Game of clouds and rain”), while displaying another quality in its openness e.g. towards bisexuality.

情色场景被描述成一个体面和联想的方式（“云和雨的游戏”），同时显示了另一个开放性的性质，例如对双性恋。

The 'Red Chamber Dream' narrates the story of unfortunate lovers. Unfortunate lovers also in the West have a literary tradition, they constitute an archetype, such as Hero and Leander, Pyramus and Thisbe, Tristan and Isolde, Flore and Blanscheflur as well as Troilus and Cressida, the latter being considered the model for Arthur Brookes, who wrote Romeo and Juliet in 1562 and thus directly influenced Shakespeare.

《红楼梦》讲述了一对不幸的恋人的故事。不幸的恋人也有西方文学的传统,他们构成一个原型,如英雄和利安得、皮拉摩斯和提斯柏,特里斯坦与伊索尔德,凝花和Blanscheflur特洛伊罗斯和克雷西达,后者被认为是阿瑟·布鲁克斯的模型,他在1562年写了《罗密欧与朱丽叶》,从而直接影响了莎士比亚。玛丽安·加利克认为《红楼梦》和《浮士德》都是吸引我们的永恒女性的中心主题，顾城则称其为“永恒的处女”。

While Marián Galik saw as the central topic of both, the Dream and Faust, the eternal feminine, which draws us on high, Gu Cheng called it the “eternal virgine”.

玛丽安·加利克（Mariann Galik）认为《梦》和《浮士德》都是吸引我们的永恒女性的中心主题，顾城则称其为“永恒的处女”。

In Goethe’s coming-of-age novel Wilhelm Meisters Wanderjahre, we find a similar motif of female rivals, in the Keller 凯勒 The Green Henry 《绿衣亨利》1855, the hero turns away from an emphatically sexually designed figure and turns to the 'real' woman. In Jane Austen’s Pride and Prejudice 1813 Elizabeth and Lin Daiyu are similar, e.g. they both strive for real love (Zhuang 2011).

在歌德的成长小说Wilhelm Meisters Wanderjahre中，我们发现了类似的女性竞争主题，在凯勒The Green Henry（《绿衣亨利》1855）中，男主人公父亲早亡，母亲养育其成人。在简-奥斯汀的Pride and Prejudice（《傲慢与偏见》1813）中，伊丽莎白和林黛玉是相似的，比如她们都追求真爱（庄2011）。

==7. Feudal society and slavery==

7. 封建社会和奴隶

A widespread interpretation is that Jia Baoyu’s equal treatment of family members and slaves would be a manifesto to free the slaves. I also do not share this interpretation, since Aristotle, when he demanded democracy, would exclude slaves from the right to vote. So we cannot use modern concepts to judge on the past. In my understanding, Jia Baoyu was not fighting inequality, but looked at the people as humans and individuals.

人们普遍认为贾宝玉对待家庭成员和奴隶的平等对待是解放奴隶的宣言。我不同意这种解释，因为亚里士多德吁民主时，会将奴隶从投票权中剔除。所以我们不能用现代观点评判古人。我认为，贾宝玉并不是在为不平等而做斗争，而是将人区分为人或是个体。

Also the understanding of the servants as slaves does not match the description in the Dream, since some servants had servants themselves, the family took care after they left the Jia family to find a match for them and Jia Zheng refers to his daughter Yingchun as „yatou 丫头“, so it is inappropriate to translate this expression with slave. Therefore, the translator preferred “servant” over “slave” in the translation.

而且把仆人理解为奴隶与《红楼梦》中的描写不符，因为有些仆人自己还有仆人，贾府会在她们离府的时候为她们寻一门亲事，作为贾府对她们的照料；贾政也把自己的女儿迎春喊作 “丫头”，所以把这些翻译成奴隶是不合适的。因此英文翻译中采用“servant”会比“slave”更为合适。

Mo Yan in his speech at the Frankfurt Bookfair in 2009, when China was the guest of honor, draws the (similarly) parallel between the Dream and Goethe’s Sorrows of the Young Werther, that both expressed the wish to abandon feudal society. My own impression is that both do not express this wish, but that this is a later concept and interpretation and we should not apply this to judge the past.

2009年，莫言代表中国作为主宾国参加法兰克福书展时，在演讲中把《红楼梦》和歌德的《少年维特之哀》画上了约等号，表达了抛弃封建社会的愿望。我自己的感觉是，两者都没有表达这个愿望，但这是后来的概念和解释，我们不应该以此来判断过去。

==8. Tragedy of all tragedies==

8.最悲剧的悲剧

Aristotle explained in On the Tragedy (Poetics VI), that tragedies move people more than comedies because they “imitate [mimēsis] an action that is serious, complete, and of a certain magnitude” (Aristotle 1971, 51), This high esteem of the tragedy in Europe is partly ascribed to the loss of Aristotle’s work On the Comedy.

亚里士多德在《悲剧论》（诗学VI）中解释道，悲剧之所以比戏剧更加动人，是因为它们“模仿（mimēsis）一种严肃、完整且具有一定规模的行动”（Aristotle 1971，51）。悲剧在欧洲拥有崇高地位部分归因于亚里士多德的作品《论喜剧》的失传。

While Europe has the Hamlet as its tragedy of all tragedies, the lack of tragic literature in Chinese literary tradition has long been lamented. Wang Guowei sees the Dream as "tragedy of all tragedies". To Wang Guowei the suffering of Faust and Jia Baoyu is central in the novels. However, many scholars contest that Faustianism is central for Chinese culture.

欧洲悲剧中以《哈姆雷特》为悲剧，而中国文学传统中悲剧文学的缺失，长期以来被人们所惋惜。王国维认为《梦》是“所有悲剧中的悲剧”。对王国维来说，浮士德和贾宝玉的苦难是小说的中心。然而，许多学者认为浮士德主义是中国文化的核心。

In 18th century Europe, we saw a new development in the genre of the drama, to establish a “bourgeois tragedy”.

在18世纪的欧洲，我们看到了戏剧体裁的新发展，确立了“资产阶级悲剧”。

It developed as an emancipatory movement in the 18th century in London, Paris and Germany, and demonstrated that tragedy was not reserved to rulers, but was also imagineable for lower noblemen and ordinary citizens. The Dream at the same time as the bourgeois tragedy in Europe shows a tragic story of a mid-level noble family which loses its titles and privileges.

它作为一场解放运动在18世纪的伦敦、巴黎和德国发展起来，并证明了悲剧并非只发生在统治者身上，也可能发生在下层贵族和普通公民身上。《梦》与欧洲资产阶级悲剧同时上演，讲述的是一个中层贵族家庭失去头衔和特权的悲剧故事。

==9. “Non-Binary” Novels==

9. “非二元”小说

One of the things attracting Western readers is the adorable but mysterious protagonist Jia Baoyu. With his open bisexual orientation and his interest in his mates regardless of their social status, he appears “modern” or at least displaced in time. His struggle with traditional learning makes him appear sympathetic, his long states of rapture out of the world give him both the aura of a timeless character and of mystery.

一个吸引西方读者的东西是可爱而神秘的主人公贾宝玉。由于他开放的双性恋倾向和他对伴侣的兴趣，不管他们的社会地位如何，他显得“现代”或至少在时间上流离失所。他与传统学习的斗争使他显得富有同情心，他从世界上长期的狂喜给了他永恒的性格和神秘的气息。

With the bisexual orientation of the Dreams’ protagonist, the novel appears non-binary. According to German sinologist Karl-Heinz Pohl (2018), binaries are just superficial, ultimately decisive is the Heart Sutra. Today, the novel is listed among the genre of non-binary literature (see e.g. the bibliographical list on https://www.goodreads.com/list/tag/non-binary), in which contrasts are dissolved deconstructivistically.

随着梦中主人公的双性取向，小说呈现出非二元性。德国汉学家卜松山(2018)认为，二进制只是表面现象，最终起决定性作用的是“心经”。今天，这部小说被列为非二元文学的一个流派（参见https://www.goodreads.com/list/tag/non-binary)，其中的反差被解构主义地化解了。

==10. Foreign Cultures in the Red Chamber Dreams==

10.红楼梦中的异邦文化

Foreign Cultures frequently appear in the Dreams in all kinds of varieties, like exoticism with the many objects in the household and presented to the household as novelties, especially the blond girl of the same age as Baoyu referred to in person (combining different origins and cultures, including European, Japanese, Chinese) or several times on paintings, one time shown with wings as an angel.

红楼梦中经常出现各种各样的异邦文化元素，例如许多贾府物品带有异国情调，并是以新奇的形式呈现给贾府的，尤其是其中提到的与宝玉同龄的金发女孩（结合了不同的来历和文化，包括欧洲，日本，中国），金发女孩也多次在绘画中出现，有一次是以带翅膀的天使的形象出现。

The playful combination of different traditions we can see also when a religious dress is described, which carries characteristics of different religions. Similarly, the Daoist monk and the Confucian priest appear together. Cao Xueqin wanted to show the richness and diversity, also with the many topics and societal levels of the novel. Even a variety of Christian motifs can be found, like when Jia Baoyu is not recognized by his father in chapter 120 and when he disappears, all parallel to Jesus Christ.

宗教服饰带有不同宗教的特点，在描述一种宗教服饰时，我们也能体味不同宗教传统的玩味结合。同样，道士和儒士也可一起出现。曹雪芹想表现出小说的丰富性和多样性，同时也要展现出小说的众多主题和社会层次。在书中甚至可以找到各种基督教的主题，比如第120章贾宝玉不被父亲认可，以及贾宝玉消失的时候，这些都与耶稣基督平行。

The variety of cultures is paralleled with the variety of elements of different dynasties, which makes it timeless and therefore even more a masterpiece of Chinese art and a masterpiece of human art. Therefore I would like to nominate the Red Chamber Dreams as “World Documentary Heritage”.

文化的多样性与不同朝代的元素多样性相辅相成，这种多样性便其变得永恒，甚至因此而成为中国艺术杰作和人类艺术杰作。因此，我想提名《红楼梦》为“世界纪录片遗产”。

==References 参考文献==

*Anthony, C. Yu. (2001). Rereading the Stone: Desire and the Making of Fiction in Dream of the Red Chamber. Princeton University Press.
*Aristotle. (1971). Poetics. Trans. S. H. Butcher. Ed. Hazard Adams. Critical Theory since Plato. ew York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 48-66.
*Woesler, Martin, ed., Cao Xueqin, Gao E et al. (2016). Der Traum der Roten Kammer oder Die Geschichte vom Stein [Red Chamber Dreams or The Story of the Stone], Peking: Foreign Languages Press, ISBN 9787119094120, 4813 pages, 6 vols., hardcover, transl. by Rainer Schwarz and Martin Woesler; Chinese-German bilingual edition
*Woesler, Martin. (2011). “Being Explicit About the Implicit – John Minford’s Translation of the last Forty Chapters of The Story of the Stone with a Field Study on two Sexually Arousing Scenes”. Hong lou meng xue kan 6: 274-289
*Woesler, Martin. (2010). “ ’To Amuse the Beaux and Belles’ The Early Western Reception of the Hongloumeng”. Journal of Sino-Western Communications 2 (2010.12) 2:81-107
*Zhuang, Xiuhua. (2011). Self, Ideal and Salvation: A Comparative Study of Jane Austen’s Elizabeth and Cao Xueqin’s Lin Daiyu. Journal of Language Teaching and Research, Vol. 2, No. 2, pp. 420-423, March 2011. Fulltext: http://www.academypublication.com/issues/past/jltr/vol02/02/19.pdf.

2021 Interview with Duan Yuanyuan

2021-03-04T13:35:58Z

Bebery: /* 5 跨文化身份 */

'''访谈提纲 Interview with Martin Woesler by Duan Yuanyuan'''

=1 让·莫内讲席教授=
吴教授您好，非常感谢您拨冗接受我的访谈！首先恭喜您获得“让·莫内讲席教授”荣誉称号，此地位是欧盟对从事欧洲一体化教学与研究学者的最高学术承认！您真可谓是一位欧盟的学术大使！据悉，该项目申请难度颇大，中国今年只有湖南师范大学、四川大学和中国政法大学三所大学获得资助。您可否借此次获奖的机缘，说明你眼中中欧的学术交流呢？
不客气！的确，我把自己看作是中欧之间的“文化大使”，把这次获得“让·莫内讲席教授”称号看作是在华工作、学习、生活近三十年的一个阶段性总结。许多西方人认为在华生活是一个极大的挑战，对此我并不否认，但是挑战之余，我还从中看到了变革[What kind of transformation are we talking about here? ]的必要性，而且变革只有通过接触和交流才能实现。中国应该有更多的欧洲学者，中国也应该成为德国每一所大学亟需讨论的议题。
You're welcome! Indeed, I regard myself as a "cultural ambassador" between China and Europe, and I regard winning the title of "Professor Jean Monnet Lecture" as a phased summary of nearly 30 years of work, study and life in China. Many Westerners think that living in China is a great challenge, which I don't deny, but besides the challenge, I also see the necessity of change, and change can only be realized through contact and communication. There should be more European scholars in China, and China should also become an urgent topic for every German university to discuss.
欧盟委员会2020年在全球范围内授予了70个让·莫内教席，且每所大学最多可获一个名额。中国境内大学上次获得还是在2016年。“让·莫内讲席教授”传统上主要关注欧盟相关研究。现在欧盟委员会把这个奖项授予在中国任教的德国汉学家，这说明欧盟委员会已经认识到批判性地对比其它国家和欧盟发展模式的重要性。
In 2020, the European Commission awarded 70 Jean Monnet chairs worldwide, and each university can get up to one place. The last time universities in China won it was in 2016. Traditionally, "Professor Jean Monnet" mainly focuses on EU-related research. Now the European Commission has awarded this award to German sinologists who teach in China, which shows that the European Commission has realized the importance of critically comparing the development models of other countries with those of the European Union.
我不想把欧盟在中国的表现作为中国的反面典型，而是用批判性的眼光看待。中国学生正是通过批判性思维树立价值观。我曾做过调查，结果显示，很多中国学生认为欧盟的政治一体化还没有成功，英国脱欧反映了欧盟的软弱，但我想传达的知识是，欧盟已经在运作了，只是方式不同而已：即追求的不是快速而精干的决策过程，而是等待、讨论、参与和妥协。
I don't want to take the EU's performance in China as a negative example of China, but look at it critically. It is through critical thinking that Chinese students establish values. I have done a survey, and the results show that many Chinese students think that the political integration of the EU has not been successful, and Brexit reflects the weakness of the EU, but the knowledge I want to convey is that the EU is already in operation, only in different ways: it is not a fast and lean decision-making process, but waiting, discussing, participating and compromising.
同时，英国脱欧正表明欧盟每个成员都有随时离开的自由，这被视为一种成就。所以欧洲未必比中国差，只是不同而已。而当中国学生乐于接受不同的时候，他们的个性就会得到发展，成熟起来，适合国际就业市场。因此，我很鼓励学生去欧洲交换学习一两个学期。
At the same time, Brexit shows that every EU member has the freedom to leave at any time, which is regarded as an achievement. Therefore, Europe is not necessarily worse than China, it is just different. When Chinese students are willing to accept differences, their personalities will develop and mature, which is suitable for the international job market. Therefore, I encourage students to go to Europe for exchange study for one or two semesters.
申请“让·莫内讲席”项目时，我就在材料中表明该项目的落脚点在于中国和欧洲的比较，课题还囊括不同的教育体系、社会各领域的数字化以及对数据隐私的保护。通过该项目，我会推荐几名德国同事来中国短期或者长期工作，也会推荐中国同事去欧洲短期访学。并针对该项目，设置课程专题对比中欧近来的对外政策，以期激励中国塑造更加完整的海外形象。
When applying for the "Jean Monnet Lecture" project, I indicated in the materials that the foothold of the project lies in the comparison between China and Europe, and the topic also includes different education systems, digitalization in various fields of society and protection of data privacy. Through this project, I will recommend several German colleagues to work in China for a short or long time, and I will also recommend Chinese colleagues to visit Europe for a short time. In view of this project, a course topic is set up to compare the recent foreign policies of China and Europe, in order to encourage China to shape a more complete overseas image.

=2 《红楼梦》首次全译本=
2.您的代表作是《红楼梦》德语全译本，您是如何走上汉学之路的呢？可否谈谈与史华慈合译《红楼梦》的初衷？How did you begin to learn Chinese and how to stick to the path of sinology for so many years? Why did you choose to translate 红楼梦？
《红楼梦》的意义大于个人，是一件永恒的艺术品，应该提升到“世界遗产”的地位。目前，欧洲只有半数国家出版《红楼梦》译本。1989年我刚上大学的时候，德文版《红楼梦》也只有弗兰茨-库恩的节译本，共40章，只有原文体量的三分之一。与库恩的其他中国优秀小说译本在语言上几乎没有差别，带有浓厚的德国地方色彩。我也注意到了译文的不足之处。他把《红楼梦》书名中的“楼”翻译成“城堡”。这种译法也许比较适合欧洲读者的阅读口味，但就中国文化、中国历史、中国环境而言，我认为不太准确。这些不足之处也可解释为什么大卫-霍克斯和约翰-闵福德的译本在德国广受欢迎。
A Dream of Red Mansions is more meaningful than an individual. It is an eternal work of art and should be promoted to the status of "World Heritage". At present, only half of European countries have translated a Dream of Red Mansions. When I first went to college in 1989, the German version of a Dream of Red Mansions was only a flantz-Kuhn excerpt, with a total of 40 chapters, only one third of the original volume. There is almost no difference in language with Kuhn's other excellent Chinese novel translations, with strong German local color. I also noticed the shortcomings of the translation. He translated "Lou" in the title of A Dream of Red Mansions into "Castle". This translation may be more suitable for European readers, but I don't think it is accurate in terms of Chinese culture, Chinese history and Chinese environment. These shortcomings can also explain why the translations of David Hawkes and John Minford are so popular in Germany.
XX年/契机我开始重新翻译《红楼梦》。也是通过这个项目，我申请到了北京大学德意志学术交流中心（Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst，简称DAAD）奖学金。因此我也得以在北京大学学习X个月。[When did you study in Peking University? And for how long?]当时的选拔委员会主席是沃尔夫冈·顾彬（Wolfgang Kubin，中文名顾彬），他后来成为我的博士生导师之一。随后在北京，我多次参观了红楼梦研究所。参观之时张#送给我一本《红楼梦》辞典。后来回到德国，我与马汉茂（Helmut Martin）合作。从他那里我了解到，史华慈（Rainer Schwarz）已经将小说前80章翻译出来，并将自己的译文交给他出版，马汉茂让我审阅了史华兹的译本。不过译文暂未达到出版质量，[Can you give more details of why it can not be published yet? ]还需修订。
XX Year/Opportunity I began to retranslate A Dream of Red Mansions. It was also through this project that I applied for a scholarship from Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst (DAAD) of Peking University. So I was able to study at Peking University for X months. At that time, the chairman of the selection committee was Wolfgang Kubin (Chinese name Gu Bin), who later became one of my doctoral supervisors. Later in Beijing, I visited the Dream of Red Mansions Research Institute many times. During the visit, Zhang # gave me a dictionary of a Dream of Red Mansions. Later, when I returned to Germany, I cooperated with Helmut Martin. I learned from him that Rainer Schwarz had translated the first 80 chapters of the novel and gave him his own translation for publication. Ma Hanmao asked me to review Schwartz's translation. However, the translation has not yet reached the publishing quality and needs to be revised.
这次翻译尝试于我而言具有重大意义，我认为修改史华兹的译本使其达到出版水平比自己独立完成120章的翻译更重要。我花了几年时间修订史华兹的译文，随后自己翻译了后40回。然后按照前80回的风格重新修改我翻译的后40回，其中人名的翻译统一采用正式的拼音系统及其拼写方法，且并非采用标准的汉语拼音，而是按照德语书写方式，这样做的目的是尽可能地吸引更多读者的关注，且避免读者出现行文风格“跳脱”感受。
This translation attempt is of great significance to me. I think it is more important to revise Schwartz's translation to the publishing level than to complete the translation of 120 chapters independently. It took me several years to revise Schwartz's translation, and then I translated the last 40 times myself. Then I revised the last 40 times of my translation according to the style of the first 80 times, Among them, the translation of names adopts the formal Pinyin system and its spelling method, and does not adopt the standard Chinese Pinyin, but according to the German writing method. The purpose of this is to attract more readers' attention as much as possible, and to avoid readers' feeling of "jumping" in writing style.
现在，读者可获得完整、精细的译本，译本必要处附有注释。之后在XX年X月[When will the fifth edition be published? ]会出版第五版，该版本会根据读者意见和自己对原文的重新理解再进行改进。比如在我未出版的120章全译本中，很多人名的翻译也考虑到了名字的中文含义。[What amendments will you make in the fifth edition of the Chamber? Could you please list some? ]
Now, readers can get a complete and detailed translation, with notes where necessary. Then [when will the fifth edition be published? ] will publish the fifth edition, which will be improved according to readers' opinions and their own re-understanding of the original text. For example, in my unpublished full translation of 120 chapters, the translation of many names also takes into account the Chinese meaning of names. [What amendments will you make in the fifth edition of the Chamber? Could you please list some? ]

=3 欧洲红学=
3.您曾在国内红学权威刊物《红楼梦学刊》上发表过两篇文章，以德国人的视角叙述西方对《红楼梦》的了解，并介绍德译本情况以及西方学者的理解及评价。从这两篇文章可以看出，《红楼梦》在西方的传播已变换形式，由文本本身的传播向舞台剧等多模态形态发展。请问现今欧洲的红学研究、传播现状如何？您认为《红楼梦》对国内外读者有何影响？
小说是“时代精神”的体现。《红楼梦》于1791年首次出版，其创作背景是中国少数民族之一的满族统治下的清朝，曹家或受康熙宠信或备受雍正冷落以致抄家没落。囿于时代背景，作者在当时无法公开批判帝制皇权，但在小说中，他在家庭日益衰败（从事道教、闲暇、诗歌创作、艺术和音乐，而不是为了能够谋生而学习）和自己没有实现作为家族继承人的期望中，寻求被迫害的根源。这种对名家望族没落之路的描写使我们想起了契诃夫的小说。此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的纪实性历史小说《铁皮鼓》(1959年)非常相似。最值得一提的是《红楼梦》和托马斯·曼的《布登勃洛克一家》（1901年）。两部小说都描写了出生富贵的年轻一代人的颓废、没落、溃散，以及一个家族的社会地位和经济状况的逐渐没落与覆灭。托马斯·曼的小说是以资产阶级社会的巨大变革为背景，而曹雪芹的作品则选取了某个朝代的更迭时期作为时代背景，在其中帝王利益与家族利益发生了冲突! 有趣的是，两部作品中的主要角色都挑选了英年早逝的类似人物。《红楼梦》里林黛玉为情而亡，秦可卿因乱伦自尽，贾元春和妙玉也是突然死亡。在《布登勃洛克一家》里克拉拉在婚后不久即死于脑结核，托马斯在牙科手术后去世，汉诺死于伤寒。两部作品都在结构和主题上运用了影射等大量的艺术手法，以丰富的故事进展描绘出一幅衰败的景象。因此，这种并行发展令人惊讶，很难说《布登勃洛克一家》的创作没受到《红楼梦》的影响。
The novel is the embodiment of "the spirit of the times". A Dream of Red Mansions was first published in 1791. Its creation background was the Qing Dynasty under the rule of Manchu, one of China's ethnic minorities. The Cao family was either favored by Kangxi or neglected by Yongzheng, resulting in the decline of property ownership. Constrained by the background of the times, the author could not publicly criticize the imperial power at that time, but in the novel, he sought the root of persecution in the declining family (engaged in Taoism, leisure, poetry creation, art and music, instead of studying in order to make a living) and his failure to realize his expectation of being the heir of the family. This decadent description of declining families reminds us of Chekhov's novels. In addition, the detailed description of the life of all social strata in the early Qing Dynasty in A Dream of Red Mansions is very similar to Gunter Grass's documentary historical novel Tin Drum (1959). The most noteworthy ones are A Dream of Red Mansions and Thomas Mann's Budenbrock Family (1901). Both novels describe the decadence, decline and collapse of the wealthy young generation, as well as the gradual decline and collapse of a family's social status and economic situation. Thomas Mann's novels are set against the background of great changes in bourgeois society, while Cao Xueqin's works choose the change period of a certain dynasty as the background of the times, in which the interests of emperors and families conflict! Interestingly, the main characters in the two works have chosen similar characters who died young. In a Dream of Red Mansions, Lin Daiyu died of love, Qin Keqing committed suicide due to incest, and Jia Yuanchun and Miaoyu also died suddenly. In the Budenbrock Family, Clara died of brain tuberculosis shortly after marriage, Thomas died after dental surgery, and Hanno died of typhoid fever. Both works use a lot of artistic techniques such as innuendo in structure and theme, and depict a declining scene with rich story progress. Therefore, this parallel development is surprising. It is hard to say that the creation of the Budenbroc Family was not influenced by a Dream of Red Mansions.

4.您曾在欧洲多所学校任教，请问现今欧洲汉学的研究状况如何？
You have taught in many European schools. What is the current research status of Sinology in Europe?

=5 为何从古典文学的翻译转向中国现当代文学的翻译？=
除了《红楼梦》这一代表译作之外，您还翻译了包括鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱锺书、韩少功、贾平凹等在内的一批著名作家的优秀作品。可否谈谈为什么选择不同时代作家的作品？您又是如何再现他们不同的写作风格？[This question intends to know about why you choose to translate works of those writers. Is it because of personal interests or the publisher asking you to do so?
I think the section of Xu Zechen serves as good interview answers. As Chinese readers, we are desperate to know what things are like from Westerners’ perspective. ]
为何从古典文学的翻译转向中国现当代文学的翻译？
Why did you shift from the translation of classical literature to the translation of modern and contemporary Chinese literature?
不同时代的作品反映出不同的时代背景，这些作品对我个人而言是很好的窗口，可以窥探不同时期中国的社会面貌，还可与同期的欧洲文学进行比较。贾平凹作为20世纪80年代以来中国最伟大的作家之一，英译本很少。究其原因，首先在于他的作品植根于山西农村，带有浓重的地域风俗习惯。首先读懂原文对译者来说就是一项挑战，更不用提在译入语中找到对应的表达。我在翻译贾平凹的XX中就遇到了这个问题。。。。。。。。[Can you list some difficulties when translating Jia Pingwa’s or any other author’s works? We like the details.]
The works of different times reflect different backgrounds of the times. These works are a good window for me personally. I can spy on the social outlook of China in different periods and compare them with European literature in the same period. Jia Pingwa, as one of the greatest writers in China since 1980s, has few English versions. The reason lies in the fact that his works are rooted in Shanxi rural areas and have strong regional customs. It is a challenge for translators to understand the original text first, not to mention finding the corresponding expression in the target language. I encountered this problem in translating Jia Pingwa's XX. . . . . . . .
对于译者来说，翻译不同作者的作品时面对的翻译难点不同。而不同的译者有着不同的处理方式，这也能解释为何同一部作品有几个翻译版本，且翻译策略各有不同。我深知译者的文化背景对译本翻译策略的选择有很大影响，所以有些作品即便存在译本，我还是选择重新翻译。从鲁迅的短篇小说中，我们可以读出作者内心的矛盾：文学能改变世界吗？难道一定要身体力行才能改变世界吗？难道连唤醒那些像阿Q一样任由自己被牵着走，任人宰割的昏昏欲睡的同胞们也能做到吗？当无法改变自己和社会的命运时，唤醒他们还有什么用呢？作为译者，我们如何再现这种矛盾心理，如何处理鲁迅在翻译中有些古板的早期白话，如何与他对日常政治事件的论述。这些都是翻译中必不可免的问题。目前已有的鲁迅作品德译本在这些方面的处理方式多样。巴金在受到批评后修改了三部曲之一的《家》，删除了缠足现象。在翻译这部作品的过程中，译者必须决定是翻译原版还是删减后的版本。
For translators, translation difficulties are different when translating works of different authors. Different translators have different ways of dealing with it, which can explain why there are several translated versions of the same work and the translation strategies are different. I know that the translator's cultural background has a great influence on the choice of translation strategies, so I choose to retranslate some works even if there are translations. From Lu Xun's short stories, we can read the author's inner contradiction: Can literature change the world? Do you have to practice to change the world? Can we even wake up those sleepy compatriots who let themselves be led and slaughtered like Ah Q? What's the use of awakening them when they can't change their own destiny and that of society? As translators, how do we reproduce this ambivalence, how do we deal with Lu Xun's rigid early vernacular in translation, and how do we communicate with his exposition of daily political events? These are all inevitable problems in translation. At present, the existing German versions of Lu Xun's works deal with these aspects in various ways. After being criticized, Ba Jin revised Home, one of the trilogy, and deleted foot binding. In the process of translating this work, the translator must decide whether to translate the original version or the abridged version.
我个人很喜欢徐则臣的作品。在2009年（北上2015年才出版）[Is this book called <北上>？]的法兰克福书展上，他的故事《北上》受到广泛好评。事实上，他的生活经历与我有些重叠部分。我们都在北京大学学习过，只不过他比我早入学一点（多久）。当时校园里有一种亚文化，博士生们住在餐厅旁边的闲置房间里，因为他们对大学里的人、办事流程了如指掌，而且在独立的诗歌和艺术界也有联系，所以每逢有聚会，他们都很抢手，大家竞相邀请他们参加聚会。那时的大学涌现着一股乐观主义的精神，起初门外涌现出私营商业市场，后来校园里传出“开公司”的口号。那时，毕业生不愿毕业就被分入特定的工作岗位，身上的自由和责任感促使他们闯一闯这个世界。故事里拿着盗版产品的街边小贩和软件开发产品的学生先锋也是这幅画的一部分。徐则臣将这种气氛真实地捕捉到，令人信服。他笔下的人物在我们心上扎根，爱上他们，学会在生活中打拼。也是这种情感体验上的共鸣促使我翻译《北上》这部作品。
Personally, I like Xu Zechen's works very much. At the Frankfurt Book Fair in 2009 (published in 2015), his story "Going North" was widely praised. In fact, his life experience overlaps with mine. We all studied at Peking University, but he entered school a little earlier than me. At that time, there was a subculture on campus. Doctoral students lived in idle rooms next to restaurants. Because they knew the people and procedures in the university like the back of their hand, and they also had contacts in independent poetry and art circles, they were very popular whenever there was a party, and everyone invited them to attend the party. At that time, there was a spirit of optimism in universities. At first, private commercial markets emerged outside the doors. Later, the slogan of "starting a company" came out on campus. At that time, graduates were assigned to specific jobs without graduating, and their freedom and sense of responsibility prompted them to enter the world. Street vendors with pirated products and student pioneers with software development products in the story are also part of this painting. Xu Zechen captured this atmosphere truly and convincingly. His characters take root in our hearts, fall in love with them and learn to work hard in life. It is also this resonance in emotional experience that prompted me to translate the work "North".

=6 中西合璧=
有人认为中华文化走出去最好的译介模式是“中西合璧”，如葛浩文和林丽君的译作在国内外产生了较大影响。您对此有何看法？

Einige Leute denken, dass die beste Art, die chinesische Kultur zu übersetzen und zu interpretieren, die "Kombination von Ost und West" ist, wie z.B. die Übersetzungen von Ge Haowen und Lin Lijun, die einen großen Einfluss im In- und Ausland hatten. Was halten Sie davon?

Some people think that the best way to translate and interpret Chinese culture is to "combine East and West", such as the translations of Ge Haowen and Lin Lijun, which had a great influence at home and abroad. What do you think of them?

Woesler: Was ist der ideale Übersetzer? Es gibt die These, dass er unsichtbar sei. Wenn der Leser nicht merkt, dass ein Text übersetzt ist, habe der Übersetzer die Perfektion erreicht.

Woesler: What is the ideal translator? There is a thesis that he is invisible. If the reader does not notice that a text has been translated, the translator has achieved perfection.

吴漠汀：什么是理想的翻译？有论说他是看不见的。如果读者没有注意到一个文本已经被翻译出来，那么译者已经达到了完美的境界。

Ich denke, dass ein Übersetzer unbedingt aus der Zielkultur und -sprache kommen muss. Nur dieser Übersetzer ist in der Lage, der Zielleserschaft das Bild zu vermitteln, dass er selbst vermitteln möchte. Übersetzer aus der Ausgangskultur und -sprache mögen keine Meister der Zielkultur und -sprache sein.

I think that a translator must necessarily come from the target culture and language. Only this translator is able to convey to the target readership the image that he himself wants to convey. Translators from the source culture and language may not be masters of the target culture and language.

我认为，翻译绝对要来自目标文化和语言。只有这样的译者才能向目标读者传达他自己想要传达的形象。源文化和语言的译者未必是目标文化和语言的主人。

Of course, a truly bilingual translator who has grown up in both cultures and languages about equally and has mastered them would be best here.

Natürlich wäre ein echt bilingualer Übersetzer, der etwa gleich viel in beiden Kulturen und Sprachen aufgewachsen ist und sie meisterhaft beherrscht, hier am besten.

当然，真正的双语翻译，在两种文化和语言中成长得差不多，并且精通两种文化和语言的人，在这里是最好的。

Weiterhin wäre es gut, wenn der Übersetzer ein weiteres Metier ausübt, nämlich das des Ausgangstexts-Autors, also z.B. Romancier oder Poet. Er sollte auch mit der Zeit und dem Umfeld, in der/dem der Ausgangstext entstand, vertraut sein. Er sollte den Text nicht ‚besser’ machen als im Original, aber er sollte in der Lage sein, an das Original heranzureichen.

Furthermore, it would be good if the translator practiced another profession, that of the source text author, e.g. novelist or poet. He should also be familiar with the time and environment in which the source text was written. He should not make the text 'better' than the original, but he should be able to approach the original.

此外，如果译者从事另一种职业，即源文本作者的职业，如小说家或诗人，那就更好了。他还应该熟悉源文本的写作时间和环境。他不应该让文本比原作'更好'，但他应该能够接近原作。

Ein übersetzter Text ist immer eine Neuschöpfung, die nicht mehr von den Worten, aber von der Funktion, Wirkung etc. dem Original nacheifern kann. Wenn man also von Kombination spricht, muss man dies sehr differenziert tun.

A translated text is always a new creation, which can no longer emulate the original in terms of words, but in terms of function, effect, etc. So when one speaks of combination, one must do so in a very differentiated way.

译文始终是一种再创造，在文字上已经无法模仿原著，但在功能、效果等方面却可以模仿。所以，在讲组合的时候，一定要很有鉴别力。

=7 传播中华文化=
根据您的实践经验和理性思考，中华文化外译传播有哪些成功因素?

Basierend auf Ihrer praktischen Erfahrung und Ihrem rationalen Denken, was sind die Erfolgsfaktoren für die Übersetzung und Verbreitung chinesischer Kultur im Ausland?

Woesler: Zunächst einmal muss man schauen, dass man einen Text hat, der in der Zielkultur ‚funktioniert’.

First of all, you have to see that you have a text that 'works' in the target culture.

首先，你要看到你有一个在目标文化中 "有效 "的文本。

Nach Bourdieu kann man die Kultur als ein „Feld“ begreifen, in dem unterschiedliche Agenten wirken und die Währung das „kulturelle Kapital“ ist.

According to Bourdieu, culture can be understood as a 'field' in which different agents operate and the currency is 'cultural capital'.

布尔迪厄认为，文化可以理解为一个 "场域"，在这个场域中，不同的行为主体进行运作，货币就是 "文化资本"。

=8 摆渡人=
您自1990年代来华留学，在华生活多年。作为中西文化的“摆渡人”，您是如何坚持翻译中国经典著作的？您对中德文化交流的未来发展前景有何预见？是否可以给年青一代的汉学家、翻译家提出一些建议？

Sie kamen in den 1990er Jahren zum Studium nach China und leben seit vielen Jahren in China. Wie sind Sie als "Fährmann" zwischen der chinesischen und der westlichen Kultur dazu gekommen, chinesische Klassiker zu übersetzen? Wie sehen Sie die zukünftige Entwicklung des Kulturaustausches zwischen Deutschland und China? Haben Sie einen Rat für die jüngere Generation von Sinologen und Übersetzern?

Als Student war ich erschüttert und verärgert über die Tatsache, dass meine chinesischen Kommilitoninnen und Kommilitonen Goethe, Shakespeare und Heine kannten, aber im Westen kaum jemand Qu Yuan, Li Taibo, Su Dongpo oder Cao Xueqin kannte. Auch wenn im Westen die Übersetzungstätigkeit keine so hohe Anerkennung findet wie wissenschaftliche Forschung über Literatur, sah ich es doch als eine Lebensaufgabe an, mehr Werke der chinesischen Literatur, insbesondere Meisterwerke und Klassiker, ins Deutsche zu übersetzen. Auch habe ich gezielt die junge Generation der Studienabsolventinnen und -absolventen angesprochen und sie für Übersetzungsprojekte gewonnen.

As a student, I was shocked and angered by the fact that my Chinese fellow students knew Goethe, Shakespeare and Heine, but hardly anyone in the West knew Qu Yuan, Li Taibo, Su Dongpo or Cao Xueqin. Even though translation work is not as highly recognized in the West as scholarly research on literature, I saw it as a life's work to translate more works of Chinese literature, especially masterpieces and classics, into German. I also specifically targeted the younger generation of graduate students and recruited them for translation projects.

在学生时代，我对中国同学知道歌德、莎士比亚、海涅，而西方几乎没有人知道屈原、李泰波、苏东坡、曹雪芹感到震惊和烦恼。尽管翻译工作在西方不像文学学术研究那样受到高度重视，但我把把更多的中国文学作品，特别是名著和经典作品翻译成德文看作是毕生的事业。我还专门针对年轻一代的毕业生，招聘他们参与翻译项目。

Natürlich ist dies vom Charakter her eine dienende Aufgabe, eine Dienstleistung. Aber ohne diese Dienstleistung kann Forschung nicht entstehen. Es tut der deutschen Kultur gut, etwas mehr von der chinesischen Kultur zu erfahren. Und die deutsche Bevölkerung, die in der Regel kein Chinesisch versteht, kann ihren ersten Zugang durch Übersetzungen erhalten. Für die professionelle Beschäftigung mit chinesischer Literatur ist dann natürlich der Erwerb chinesischer Sprachkenntnisse zu empfehlen, da das Lesen des Originals immer authentischer ist als das Lesen der Übersetzung.

Of course, in character this is a serving task, a service. But without this service, research cannot emerge. It is good for German culture to learn a little more about Chinese culture. And the German population, which usually does not understand Chinese, can get its first access through translations. For the professional study of Chinese literature, the acquisition of Chinese language skills is then of course recommended, since reading the original is always more authentic than reading the translation.

当然，就其特点而言，这是一个服务性的任务，是一种服务。但如果没有这种服务，研究就无法发展。多了解一下中国文化，对德国文化有好处。而德国民众通常不懂中文，他们可以通过翻译获得第一手资料。那么，对于专业从事中国文学创作的人来说，当然建议掌握汉语能力，因为读原著永远比读译著更真实。

Das Bild des Fährmanns in der Frage ist ein gutes Bild, es ist auch typisches Motiv der Weltliteratur. Es gibt Fährmänner in vielen alten Kulturen, da die Menschen entlang von Flüssen wanderten und die Flüsse nicht immer so seicht waren, dass man über eine Furt hinüberkam. Das Bild von Fährmännern war traditionell positiv, sie waren in Europa auch sprichwörtlich bekannte gute Zuhörer.

The image of the ferryman in the question is a good image, it is also typical motif of world literature. There are ferrymen in many ancient cultures because people migrated along rivers and rivers were not always shallow enough to cross over a ford. The image of ferrymen was traditionally positive, they were also proverbially known good listeners in Europe.

题中的摆渡人形象很好，这也是世界文学中的典型主题。很多古代文化中都有摆渡人，因为人们在河边游荡，河水不一定都很浅，不一定能渡过一个渡口。摆渡人的形象历来是正面的，他们在欧洲也是俗称的好听话。

In der Literatur berichtet schon vor fast 5000 Jahren (2600 v. Chr.) der Gilgamesh-Epos vom Fährmann Ur-šanabi, der den König über die Wasser des Todes bringt. Dem Fährmann kommt eine wichtige Rolle zu. Er ist Verbindung zwischen zwei Welten. Tatsächlich ist schon der Dichter oder Schriftsteller selbst ein Fährmann, er weiß den Lesern aus seinem Reich der Gedanken, Träume und Vorstellungen zu berichten und entführt ihn für die Dauer des Lesens in dieses Reich.

In literature, almost 5000 years ago (2600 BC), the Gilgamesh epic tells of the ferryman Ur-šanabi, who takes the king across the waters of death. The ferryman has an important role. He is a link between two worlds. In fact, the poet or writer himself is a ferryman, he knows how to tell the reader from his realm of thoughts, dreams and imaginations and takes him into this realm for the duration of the reading.

在文学作品中，早在近5000年前(公元前2600年)，《吉尔伽美什》史诗就讲述了摆渡人乌尔-萨纳比带国王渡过死亡之水的故事。摆渡人有着重要的作用。他是两个世界的纽带。其实，诗人或作家本身就是一个摆渡人，他懂得把自己的思想境界、梦想和想象告诉读者，并在阅读过程中把读者带入这个境界。

=9 译研结合=
作为世界汉学研究会会长，您组织了多场与汉学相关的国际会议，包括一年一度的世界汉学研究大会（WACS），持续向世界展示中华文化的魅力。您既是译者，又是研究者，您如何看待这两个身份之间的转换？您对从事译研结合的学者有何建议吗？

Als Präsident der World Association for Chinese Studies (WACS) haben Sie mehrere internationale Konferenzen im Zusammenhang mit Chinastudien organisiert, darunter den jährlichen Weltkongress für Chinastudien (WACS), der der Welt weiterhin den Charme der chinesischen Kultur vor Augen führt. Sie sind sowohl Übersetzer als auch Forscher, wie sehen Sie den Übergang zwischen diesen beiden Identitäten? Haben Sie einen Rat für Wissenschaftler, die sich mit der Kombination von Übersetzung und Forschung beschäftigen?

Woesler: Im Westen werden Wissenschaftler in der Regel höher angesehen als Übersetzer. Die Arbeit des Übersetzers ist aber dennoch wichtig, da die Wissenschaft auf die Erschließung der Quellen angewiesen ist und da vor allem die breite Öffentlichkeit ohne Übersetzungen die fremdsprachige Literatur nicht kennenlernen und verstehen könnte.

Woesler: In the West, scientists are generally held in higher esteem than translators. The work of the translator is nevertheless important, since science depends on the development of the sources and since above all the general public could not get to know and understand the foreign-language literature without translations.

吴漠汀：在西方，学者的地位普遍高于翻译家。不过，译者的工作还是很重要的，因为科学有赖于源头的发展，最重要的是，如果没有翻译，大众就无法认识和了解外文文献。

Wissenschaftler, die Übersetzungen kritisieren, wie es z.B. jetzt in China Mode wird, verschiedene englischsprachige Übersetzungen des Traums der Roten Kammer zu kritisieren, sollten auch einmal selbst als Schriftsteller und als Übersetzer arbeiten. Zudem sollte man am besten nur Übersetzungen in die eigene Sprache kritisieren. Eine Übersetzung in eine Zielsprache zu kritisieren, verlangt extrem viele Voraussetzungen, die kaum jemand in China mit sich bringt. Wenn man seine Ausgangssprache gut beherrscht, steht der Wissenschaftler hier auf sicherem Boden, er kann Nebenbedeutungen und Nuancen erkennen und die Angemessenheit von Wortwahl, Stil etc. besser einschätzen.

Scholars who criticize translations, as is now the fashion in China, for example, to criticize various English-language translations of the Dream of the Red Chamber, should also work as writers and as translators themselves for once. Moreover, it is best to criticize only translations into one's own language. Criticizing a translation into a target language requires an extremely large number of prerequisites that hardly anyone in China has. If one has a good command of one's source language, the scholar is on safer ground here; he or she can recognize secondary meanings and nuances and better assess the appropriateness of word choice, style, and so on.

像中国现在流行的批评翻译的学者，比如批评《红楼梦》的各种英译本，有的时候也应该以作家本身和译者的身份工作。此外，最好只批评翻译成自己语言的作品。批评翻译成目标语言需要极多的前提，而在中国几乎没有人具备。如果一个人对自己的源语言掌握得很好，那么学者在这里就比较安全，能够识别次要的含义和细微的差别，更好地评估选词、文体等是否恰当。

Wenn ich jedes Jahr über 100 Kolleginnen und Kollegen zu Vorträgen über ihr Fachgebiet einlade, so vor allem aus dem Grund, weil ich denke, dass man sein Leben lang lernen kann, dass man von Kolleginnen und Kollegen lernen kann und seinen Horizont durch mehr Perspektiven und die Diskussionen am Rande der Konferenz erweitert.

When I invite more than 100 colleagues to lecture on their field every year, it is mainly because I think that one can learn throughout one's life, that one can learn from colleagues and broaden one's horizons through more perspectives and the discussions on the sidelines of the conference.

我每年邀请100多位同事到自己的领域讲课，主要是觉得人的一生都是可以学习的，通过更多的视角和会议间隙的讨论，可以向同事学习，拓宽自己的视野。

=10 国际汉学中心=
您是湖南师范大学“潇湘学者”特聘教授，并担任国际汉学中心主任。请问：该中心主要从事工作？您未来计划开展哪些项目推动中德文化交流？

Sie sind ein angesehener Professor der Hunan Normal University und der Direktor des Zentrums für Internationale Chinawissenschaften. Was ist die Hauptaufgabe des Zentrums? Welche zukünftigen Projekte planen Sie, um den kulturellen Austausch zwischen Deutschland und China zu fördern?

Woesler: Das Zentrum für Internationale Chinawissenschaften ist eine Brücke zwischen der heimischen Guoxue und den ausländischen Chinawissenschaften. In diesem Forum können sich Wissenschaftler aus der ganzen Welt mit ihren unterschiedlichen Perspektiven zum Austausch und zur Zusammenarbeit treffen.

Woesler: The Center for International China Studies is a bridge between domestic Guoxue and foreign China studies. In this forum, scholars from all over the world with their different perspectives can meet for exchange and cooperation.

吴漠汀：国际汉学研究中心是国内国学与对外汉语研究的桥梁。在这个论坛上，来自世界各地的学者带着各自不同的观点，可以聚在一起交流合作。

Aus Hongkong haben wir die US-Amerikanerin Margaret Chu gewinnen können, die nebenberuflich als Senior Fellow Kontakte pflegt und Beiträge evaluiert und verbessert. Sie ist gerade Anfang 2021 als Associate Professorin an die Macao University of Science and Technology berufen worden.

From Hong Kong, we have been able to attract Margaret Chu from the US, who is a part-time Senior Fellow who maintains contacts and evaluates and improves contributions. She has just been appointed as an Associate Professor at Macao University of Science and Technology in early 2021.

我们从香港吸引了来自美国的Margaret Chu，她是兼职高级研究员，负责保持联系，评估和改进贡献。她刚刚在2021年初被聘为澳门科技大学副教授。

Ms. Chu has also brought many colleagues into the network, including from Oxford, California, and Massachusetts.

Frau Chu hat auch viele Kollegen, unter anderem aus Oxford, Kalifornien und Massachusetts, ins Netzwerk geholt.

朱女士还将许多同事带进了网络，包括来自牛津、加州和马萨诸塞州的同事。

Aus Deutschland haben vier Kollegen einen Ruf auf Professuren am Foreign Studies College angenommen, darunter zwei Sinologen, die das Zentrum verstärken: Der Philosoph Ole Döring aus Karlsruhe und der Historiker Cord Eberspächer aus Düsseldorf, der das dortige Konfuzius-Institut als Direktor geleitet hat.

From Germany, four colleagues have accepted appointments to professorships at the Foreign Studies College, including two Sinologists who are strengthening the center: Philosopher Ole Döring from Karlsruhe and historian Cord Eberspächer from Düsseldorf, who was director of the Confucius Institute there.

来自德国的四位同事已经接受了外国语学院教授职位的任命，其中包括两位加强中心的汉学家。哲学家Ole Döring来自卡尔斯鲁厄，历史学家Cord Eberspächer来自杜塞尔多夫，他曾在那里担任孔子学院院长。

Wir alle, zusammen mit Kolleginnen und Kollegen aus Russland, den USA, und verschiedenen Staaten in Europa, arbeiten gemeinsam an einer "Geschichte der Chinawissenschaften", die mit einem Übersichtsband sowie 10 Einzelbänden konzipiert ist. Sie soll zeitgleich auf Englisch, Deutsch und Chinesisch erscheinen.

All of us, together with colleagues from Russia, the USA, and various countries in Europe, are working together on a "History of Chinese Studies", which is conceived with an overview volume as well as 10 individual volumes. It is to be published simultaneously in English, German and Chinese.

我们大家和俄罗斯、美国以及欧洲各国的同仁一起，正在共同编写 "中国研究史"，构思中的 "中国研究史 "有一卷总论，也有十卷单行本。该书将以英文、德文和中文同时出版。

In einem anderen Projekt beschäftigt sich das Zentrum mit der Geschichte der Auseinandersetzung mit den Vier Großen Romanen und insbesondere mit dem Traum der Roten Kammer im Ausland, insbesondere im Westen.

In another project, the Center is looking at the history of engagement with the Four Great Novels and, in particular, the Dream of the Red Chamber abroad, especially in the West.

在另一个项目中，该中心正在研究四大名著，特别是《红楼梦》在国外，尤其是在西方的参与历史。

Im Bereich moderne Literatur schauen wir uns Lu Xun an, unter anderem seine Bekanntschaft mit europäischen Schriftstellern und Reform-Pädagogen. Auch Qian Zhongshu ist aus Sicht der internationalen Chinawissenschaften interessant, seine Texte sind voller Bezüge auf westliche Literatur.

In the area of modern literature, we look at Lu Xun, including his acquaintance with European writers and reform educators. Qian Zhongshu is also interesting from the perspective of international Chinese studies; his texts are full of references to Western literature.

在现代文学中，我们看鲁迅，包括他与欧洲作家和改革教育家的相识。从国际汉学的角度看，钱钟书也很有意思，他的文章中充满了对西方文学的引用。

Das Zentrum unterstützt die Übersetzung chinesischer Bücher ins Englische und Deutsche. So wurden zahlreiche Romane, Erzählungen und Sachbücher übersetzt.

The Center supports the translation of Chinese books into English and German. Thus, numerous novels, short stories and non-fiction books have been translated.

中心支持将中文书籍翻译成英语和德语。因此，翻译了许多小说、短篇小说和非小说类书籍。

=11. 曹雪芹和跨国文化=
从跨国文化的角度看曹雪芹你有合想法？

Woesler: Cao Xueqin and even more his protagonist Jia Baoyu both are early humanists, universalists and world citizens. The Red Chamber Dreams function worldwide. The Dream is a complex showroom of diverse aspects of Chinese cultures and is the embodiment and essence of Chinese cultures, but it has also a global impact, therefore it should be honoured as “World Documentary Heritage”.

吴漠汀：曹雪芹，尤其是他的主人公贾宝玉，都是早期的人文主义者，普世主义者和世界公民。《红楼梦》具有普世价值。《红楼梦》综合展示了中国的多元文化，是中国文化的集中体现和精华，同时在全球范围内产生影响，理应列入世界记忆遗产名录。

Cao Xueqin’s message is not simply the one of “Paradise Lost”, instead he himself made the best out of his life. Although being less wealthy than when his family still enjoyed the favour of the emperor, there was a payroll system and a social net intact in Early Qing China, where he received enough income to be independent from his rich relatives, to be selective on accepting jobs, to live a relaxed life in a small house in the nature, spending time with his family and friends, follow his own interests, like reading, writing and drinking wine, making kites for the children and thinking of the disadvantaged.

曹雪芹所传达的信息并不是简单的“失乐园”，相反，他把自己的生活过得很好。虽然比起他的家族享受皇帝的宠爱，他过得没有那么富裕，但清初中国有一套薪俸制度和一张完整的社会网，他获得了足够的收入，可以独立于富贵亲戚，可以有选择性地接受工作，可以在大自然的小房子里过着悠闲的生活，可以与家人和朋友共度时光，可以追随自己的兴趣，例如读书，写作和饮酒，可以为孩子们做风筝，可以为弱势群体着想。

Cao Xueqin was fully aware of his time and China’s cultural achievements, he was familiar with the different levels of society, he was a detailed observer and skilful narrator. He may have conceptualized the ending of the novel as a discussion about the different personalities of the characters in the novel and therefore displaying his reflection about life and his psychological understanding of the diversity of human nature. He was able to grasp the “spirit of time” (Zeitgeist) and with his autobiographical experience create an eternal coming-of-age novel not just for his family, for the Qing-Chinese, for Chinese people, but for mankind.

曹雪芹对自己所处的时代和中国的文化成就了如指掌，他熟悉社会的不同层面，他是一个细致的观察者和娴熟的叙述者。因此，他在小说中对人的不同个性的理解和对小说中人物性格的多样性进行了概念化的探讨。他能够把握“时代精神”，用他的自传体经历，不仅为他的家庭，为清朝的中国人，为中国人民，而且为人类，创作了一部永恒的成人小说。

This tradition of Coming-of-age novels is also a European one, like enlightenment philosopher Voltaire’s novel Candide or Optimism《老实人》shows at the very same time (1759) in Europe. Also Voltaire’s Candide has to leave the luxurious paradise of his childhood and strives for true love, but his main learning is more pessimistic, since Voltaire wrote the novel in opposition to Leibniz, who optimistically looked to China as “the best of all worlds”. Recent research findings show that China had a much larger influence on European enlightenment philosophers and we can be sure, that also Cao Xueqin was aware of some European literary traditions.

这种成熟的传统小说也是一个欧洲人,像启蒙运动哲学家伏尔泰在欧洲同时间出版的的小说《老实人》(1759年)。伏尔泰笔下的老实人不得不离开童年的奢华天堂，为追求真爱而奋斗，但他的主要学习内容却更为悲观，因为伏尔泰的小说与莱布尼茨截然相反，莱布尼茨乐观地认为中国是“所有世界中最好的”。最近的研究发现，中国对欧洲启蒙运动哲学家的影响要大得多，我们可以肯定，曹雪芹对欧洲的一些文学传统也有所了解。

=12. 《红楼梦》跟今天国内外的读者有什么关系？=

Woesler: The novel is an embodiment of “Zeitgeist”.

吴漠汀：小说作为 "时代精神 "的体现。

According to Georg Lukács’ Theory of the Novel, while the Epos (like Homer’s Ilias, which like the Dream reasons the stories in the divine realm) displayed a holistic world experience, a complete, self-contained culture, the novel displays, that the modern world has become infinitely large and has lost its homely quality.

根据格奥尔格-卢卡奇的小说理论，虽然Epos（像荷马的伊利亚斯，它像梦理由神界的故事）展示了一个整体的世界经验，一个完整的，自足的文化，小说展示，现代世界已经变得无限大，已经失去了它的家的品质。

The novel as a genre is no longer documenting just one culture, but represents, with the words of Walter Benjamin, the Organon of History. So the understanding of the novel changed with Lukacs to historical-philosophically. A novel is understood as typical for its historical era, the novel embodies the spirit of the epoch (Zeitgeist).

小说作为一种文体，不再只是记录一种文化，而是用瓦尔特-本雅明的话说，代表了历史的有机体。所以，对小说的理解随着卢卡奇的改变，变成了历史哲学的理解。小说被理解为其历史时代的典型，小说体现了时代精神（Zeitgeist）。

The Red Chamber Dreams are written in front of the background of the Manchu minority having taken over the power in formerly Han-shaped Ming-China (which was a multi-ethnic and crosscultural society) and families suffering the changing favor of changing emperors, with the Cao family being fostered by Kangxi and being persecuted by Yongzheng.

《红楼梦》写的是满族少数民族在原汉字形的明中国（这是一个多民族、跨文化的社会）掌握了政权，家庭遭受换代皇帝的宠爱，曹家被康熙扶植，被雍正迫害的背景前。

While the author in his time could not criticize the system and power of emperors, in the novel he came to terms with this life by seeking the guilt for the persecution in the growing decadence of the family (engaging in Daoism, leisure, poetry-writing, arts and music instead of learning for being able to earn a living) and in himself not fulfilling the expectations as the family heir. This description of decadence of a declining family reminds us of the novels of Tschechov (and e.g. in the Buddenbrooks by Mann, including the turn to arts and music).

虽然作者在他的时代无法批判帝制和皇权，但在小说中，他为家族的日益衰败（参加道教、娱乐、诗歌、艺术和音乐活动，而不是为了谋生而学习）和自己作为家族继承人没有实现家族期望感到自责，通过这样做，他也对这种生活做妥协。这种对没落家族颓废状况的描写，让我们想起了契诃夫的小说（如曼恩的《布登布鲁克》，包括对艺术和音乐的转向）

Moreover, with the detailed description of life on all social levels in early Qing Dynasty, the Dream appears as a documentary historical novel very much like Günter Grass’ The Tin Drum 1959.

此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的《铁皮鼓1959》非常相似，《铁皮鼓1959》是一部纪实历史小说。

=13 中德文化交流=
我们非常感佩您对中华文化的热爱、对推动中德文化交流做出的突出贡献！再次感谢您接受我的访问！祝您多结学术硕果！

Wir bewundern Ihre Liebe zur chinesischen Kultur und Ihren herausragenden Beitrag zur Förderung des kulturellen Austauschs zwischen Deutschland und China! Nochmals vielen Dank für dieses Interview! Ich wünsche Ihnen viele akademische Erfolge!

Woesler: Vielen Dank! Tatsächlich sehe ich es als eine der wichtigsten Aufgaben unserer Zeit, Menschen zusammenzubringen. Viele Nationen sind stolz auf ihre Kultur. Inzwischen wissen wir, dass keine Kultur besser oder schlechter ist als eine andere. Aber es ist faszinierend, und es fördert unsere Entwicklung als Individuen und als Menschheit insgesamt, von den verschiedenen Kulturen zu wissen. Wenn sich wie ich als Deutscher in die chinesische Kultur, auf der ganzen Welt Chinesen in andere Kulturen und Angehörige anderer Kulturen in die chinesische verlieben, so führt dies zu einer Bereicherung und einem Erblühen menschlicher Kultur insgesamt. So können die Menschen das Beste, das in ihnen steckt verwirklichen: Respekt und Toleranz.

Woesler: Thank you very much! Indeed, I see it as one of the most important tasks of our time to bring people together. Many nations are proud of their culture. By now we know that no culture is better or worse than another. But it is fascinating, and it promotes our development as individuals and as humanity as a whole, to know about the different cultures. If, like me as a German, Chinese people fall in love with Chinese culture, and all over the world Chinese people fall in love with other cultures, and members of other cultures fall in love with Chinese culture, this leads to an enrichment and blossoming of human culture as a whole. In this way, people can realize the best that is within them: Respect and tolerance.

吴漠汀：非常感谢你! 的确，我认为这是我们这个时代最重要的任务之一，就是把人们团结起来。许多国家都以自己的文化为荣。现在我们知道，没有任何一种文化比另一种文化更好或更差。但它是迷人的，它能促进我们作为个人和整个人类的发展，了解不同的文化。当像我这个德国人一样，中国人爱上了中国文化，全世界的中国人爱上了其他文化，其他文化的成员爱上了中国文化，这就导致了整个人类文化的丰富和绽放。这样，人们才能实现自己内心的最佳状态。尊重和宽容。

=Notes about the intercultural approach=
==《红楼梦》与其他世界文学作品的相似性——推荐《红楼梦》列入世界记忆遗产名录 Commonness between the Red Chamber Dreams and other World Literature Novels – Proposing the Red Chamber Dreams to the World Documentary Heritage List==

吴漠汀，湖南师范大学 Martin Woesler, Hunan Normal University

==Abstract==
In every culture, readers associate the literature they know with new literature they read. So literature is always cumulative, it grows out of existing literature and can refer back to it. When Western readers read the Red Chamber Dreams, they foremost associate novels and other pieces of literature of their own cultural tradition with the Dreams. This has also influenced the first full translation into German.
Cao Xueqin and even more his protagonist Jia Baoyu both are early humanists, universalists and world citizens. The Red Chamber Dreams function worldwide. The Dream is a complex showroom of diverse aspects of Chinese cultures and is the embodiment and essence of Chinese cultures, but it has also a global impact, therefore it should be honoured as “World Documentary Heritage”.

==Key words==
Western culture, reception tradition, German translation, Embodiment of Chinese cultures, global compatibility, World Documentary Heritage

==摘要==
在每一种文化中，读者都会把他们读到的新文学与已知文学联系起来，所以文学总是积累的，它从现有的文学中生长出来，并以已有文学为参考。西方读者在阅读《红楼梦》时，首先会把《红楼梦》与自身文化传统中的小说和其他文学作品联系起来，这也影响了首次德语全译本。
曹雪芹，尤其是他的主人公贾宝玉，都是早期的人文主义者，普世主义者和世界公民。《红楼梦》具有普世价值。《红楼梦》综合展示了中国的多元文化，是中国文化的集中体现和精华，同时在全球范围内产生影响，理应列入世界记忆遗产名录。

==关键词==

西方文化，传统保护，德国翻译，中国文化具像化表现，全球兼容，世界遗产文献 --Weiyafei (talk) 07:10, 28 December 2020 (UTC)Wei yafei

==1. Chinese Ethics==

To help the poor and disadvantaged belongs to the traditional core values of Chinese culture.

When we sit in the Beijing Subway today, the loudspeaker announcement reminds us, that it is Chinese traditional ethics to give seats to the disadvantaged (老弱病残孕让座是中国传统道德). We know of Cao Xueqin, that he supported the poor and disadvantaged, and that he made kites for children.

However, when we look closer at these “Chinese Ethics”, we discover, that they are claimed also in Indian Buddhism “karuna” and in the Christian tradition of “caritas” and in almost every civilization. Therefore, we might call these values “human ethics”.

中国伦理“扶贫济困”是中国文化的传统核心价值观。当我们今天坐在北京地铁时，扬声器的公告提醒我们，让弱势群体有座位是中国传统道德。我们知道曹雪芹，他支持穷人和处境不利的人，他为孩子们制作风筝。但是，当我们仔细观察这些“中国伦理学”时，我们发现，印度佛教“ karuna”，基督教的“明爱”传统以及几乎所有文明中也都声称拥有它们。因此，我们可以将这些价值观称为“人类道德”。--Wen Xiaoyi (talk) 15:24, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

==2. Compatibility Why do the Red Chamber Dreams function worldwide and have achieved world literature status even in their translations?==

2. 兼容性为什么《红楼梦》在世界范围内广泛流传，甚至在翻译领域中也取得了世界文学的地位？

First of all, the Red Chamber Dreams are, like novels worldwide, a piece of entertainment literature. In comparison to the drama, in which every element is compulsory and plays its part in the overall structure, in the novel the line of action itself is simpler and not so important, most of the scenes or episodes are loosely put together and fit in the broader theme of the novel.

首先，《红楼梦》和世界小说一样，是一部娱乐文学。与戏剧中的每一个元素都是强制性的，在整体结构中起作用的戏剧相比，小说的行动路线本身更简单，也不那么重要，大部分场景或情节都松散地组合在一起，这和小说更广泛的主题相吻合。

However, the lose arrangement of episodes of the Dreams comes from the tradition of almost unconnected episodes like in the Shuihuzhuan and is a step towards the greater coherence of the episodes, the aligning into a story line and the greater concentration on fewer protagonists. Therefore, the Dreams show clearly a step towards the Western tradition of novels, maybe because of growing Western influence in Qing dynasty.

然而，《红楼梦》章回结构不连续来自于《水浒传》中几乎没有联系的章回的传统，这是朝着章回更连贯、与故事线一致以及更集中于较少主角的方向迈出的一步。因此，《红楼梦》明显向西方小说传统迈进了一步，可能是因为西方对清代的影响越来越大。

==3. Impact of translator’s native culture on the translation process==

3.译者的本土文化对翻译过程的影响

There are intercultural parallels between the Red Chamber Dreams and Western works of literature.

《红楼梦》和西方文学作品之间有跨国文化的相似之处。

These parallels are fundamental for the translation and were explicitly and implicitly fundamental for the German translator Martin Woesler during his translation and editorial work on the first full German translation. In the following, I will mention some of the Western novels and pieces of literature, which the Western reader of the Dreams will immediately think of.

这些相似之处是翻译的根本，也是德文译者马丁-沃斯勒在翻译和编辑第一部德文全译本时明确和隐含的根本。下面，我将提到一些西方的小说和文学作品，西方的读者读到梦会立即想到这些作品。

==4. The novel as embodiment of “Zeitgeist”==

4. 小说作为 "时代精神 "的体现。

According to Georg Lukács’ Theory of the Novel, while the Epos (like Homer’s Ilias, which like the Dream reasons the stories in the divine realm) displayed a holistic world experience, a complete, self-contained culture, the novel displays, that the modern world has become infinitely large and has lost its homely quality.

根据格奥尔格-卢卡奇的小说理论，虽然Epos（像荷马的伊利亚斯，它像梦理由神界的故事）展示了一个整体的世界经验，一个完整的，自足的文化，小说展示，现代世界已经变得无限大，已经失去了它的家的品质。

The novel as a genre is no longer documenting just one culture, but represents, with the words of Walter Benjamin, the Organon of History. So the understanding of the novel changed with Lukacs to historical-philosophically. A novel is understood as typical for its historical era, the novel embodies the spirit of the epoch (Zeitgeist).

小说作为一种文体，不再只是记录一种文化，而是用瓦尔特-本雅明的话说，代表了历史的有机体。所以，对小说的理解随着卢卡奇的改变，变成了历史哲学的理解。小说被理解为其历史时代的典型，小说体现了时代精神（Zeitgeist）。

The Red Chamber Dreams are written in front of the background of the Manchu minority having taken over the power in formerly Han-shaped Ming-China (which was a multi-ethnic and crosscultural society) and families suffering the changing favor of changing emperors, with the Cao family being fostered by Kangxi and being persecuted by Yongzheng.

《红楼梦》写的是满族少数民族在原汉字形的明中国（这是一个多民族、跨文化的社会）掌握了政权，家庭遭受换代皇帝的宠爱，曹家被康熙扶植，被雍正迫害的背景前。

While the author in his time could not criticize the system and power of emperors, in the novel he came to terms with this life by seeking the guilt for the persecution in the growing decadence of the family (engaging in Daoism, leisure, poetry-writing, arts and music instead of learning for being able to earn a living) and in himself not fulfilling the expectations as the family heir. This description of decadence of a declining family reminds us of the novels of Tschechov (and e.g. in the Buddenbrooks by Mann, including the turn to arts and music).

虽然作者在他的时代无法批判帝制和皇权，但在小说中，他为家族的日益衰败（参加道教、娱乐、诗歌、艺术和音乐活动，而不是为了谋生而学习）和自己作为家族继承人没有实现家族期望感到自责，通过这样做，他也对这种生活做妥协。这种对没落家族颓废状况的描写，让我们想起了契诃夫的小说（如曼恩的《布登布鲁克》，包括对艺术和音乐的转向）

Moreover, with the detailed description of life on all social levels in early Qing Dynasty, the Dream appears as a documentary historical novel very much like Günter Grass’ The Tin Drum 1959.

此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的《铁皮鼓1959》非常相似，《铁皮鼓1959》是一部纪实历史小说。

==5. Coming-of-age and Alienation==

5. 成熟和异化

Abandoning the paradise-like garden in the Red Chamber Dreams is a symbol for leaving the protected childhood and arriving in the complex world of adults. With George Lukács theory of the novel, the protagonist starts to problematize the sense of his life, in the novel, the protagonist’s self permanently struggles with his environment.

抛弃《红楼梦》中天堂般的花园，是离开受保护的童年，进入复杂的成人世界的象征。随着乔治·卢卡奇的小说理论，主人公开始对他的生活感觉产生疑问，在小说中，主人公的自我一直与他的环境作斗争。

However, Cao Xueqin’s message is not simply the one of “Paradise Lost”, instead he himself made the best out of his life. Although being less wealthy than when his family still enjoyed the favour of the emperor, there was a payroll system and a social net intact in Early Qing China, where he received enough income to be independent from his rich relatives, to be selective on accepting jobs, to live a relaxed life in a small house in the nature, spending time with his family and friends, follow his own interests, like reading, writing and drinking wine, making kites for the children and thinking of the disadvantaged.

然而，曹雪芹所传达的信息并不是简单的“失乐园”，相反，他把自己的生活过得很好。虽然比起他的家族享受皇帝的宠爱，他过得没有那么富裕，但清初中国有一套薪俸制度和一张完整的社会网，他获得了足够的收入，可以独立于富贵亲戚，可以有选择性地接受工作，可以在大自然的小房子里过着悠闲的生活，可以与家人和朋友共度时光，可以追随自己的兴趣，例如读书，写作和饮酒，可以为孩子们做风筝，可以为弱势群体着想。

Cao Xueqin was fully aware of his time and China’s cultural achievements, he was familiar with the different levels of society, he was a detailed observer and skilful narrator. He may have conceptualized the ending of the novel as a discussion about the different personalities of the characters in the novel and therefore displaying his reflection about life and his psychological understanding of the diversity of human nature. He was able to grasp the “spirit of time” (Zeitgeist) and with his autobiographical experience create an eternal coming-of-age novel not just for his family, for the Qing-Chinese, for Chinese people, but for mankind.

曹雪芹对自己所处的时代和中国的文化成就了如指掌，他熟悉社会的不同层面，他是一个细致的观察者和娴熟的叙述者。因此，他在小说中对人的不同个性的理解和对小说中人物性格的多样性进行了概念化的探讨。他能够把握“时代精神”，用他的自传体经历，不仅为他的家庭，为清朝的中国人，为中国人民，而且为人类，创作了一部永恒的成人小说。

This tradition of Coming-of-age novels is also a European one, like enlightenment philosopher Voltaire’s novel Candide or Optimism《老实人》shows at the very same time (1759) in Europe. Also Voltaire’s Candide has to leave the luxurious paradise of his childhood and strives for true love, but his main learning is more pessimistic, since Voltaire wrote the novel in opposition to Leibniz, who optimistically looked to China as “the best of all worlds”. Recent research findings show that China had a much larger influence on European enlightenment philosophers and we can be sure, that also Cao Xueqin was aware of some European literary traditions.

这种成熟的传统小说也是一个欧洲人,像启蒙运动哲学家伏尔泰在欧洲同时间出版的的小说《老实人》(1759年)。伏尔泰笔下的老实人不得不离开童年的奢华天堂，为追求真爱而奋斗，但他的主要学习内容却更为悲观，因为伏尔泰的小说与莱布尼茨截然相反，莱布尼茨乐观地认为中国是“所有世界中最好的”。最近的研究发现，中国对欧洲启蒙运动哲学家的影响要大得多，我们可以肯定，曹雪芹对欧洲的一些文学传统也有所了解。

Also the German readership is familiar with the chronological following of the life of the protagonist and his development, the fate of a family over generations, the German readership knows this type of novel as the “Education novel” or “Coming-of-age-novel”. In Germany, the genre of the coming-of-age novel has a long tradition and it is shaped more by single characters, who appear as teachers (Goethe: Wilhelm Meister’s Apprenticeship威廉·麦斯特的学徒岁月 1795-96, Novalis 诺瓦利斯: Heinrich von Ofterdingen 《海因利·封·歐福特丁根》1802).

德国读者对主人公的生平及其发展、家族世代的命运都很熟悉，德国读者把这种类型的小说称为“教育小说”或“成长小说”。在德国,关于成长小说的体裁有着悠久的传统,它的形状更由单个字符,它更多的是被塑造为教师的单个人物(歌德：'Wilhelm Meister’s Apprenticeship威廉·麦斯特的学徒岁月 1795-96, Novalis 诺瓦利斯: Heinrich von Ofterdingen《海因利·封·歐福特丁根》1802)。

Wilhelm Meister, parallely to Jia Baoyu, is struggling with the traditional education, in Wilhelm Meister this is represented with the classics revived in Shakespeare’s dramas. Tradition can give orientation, but the personality of the protagonist needs to develop through emancipation is a wisdom, we can learn from all mentioned novels including the Dreams.

==6. Pornography and True Love, female rivals==

Sexuality is a basic human need and has developed into different shapes in all cultures. The German audience is familiar with erotic topics from the Middle Ages, in which sexuality was stylized. In the “Schwänke” of the 15th century (Wittenwielers Ring), erotic scenes are described sexually explicit.

与贾宝玉一样，威廉·迈斯特也在与传统教育作斗争，在《威廉·迈斯特》中，莎士比亚戏剧中复兴的经典作品代表了这一点。传统可以给予导向，但主人公的个性需要通过解放来发展是一种智慧，我们可以从包括《梦》在内的所有小说中学习。 “6。色情与真爱，女性对手" 性是人类的一种基本需求，在各种文化中形成了不同的形态。德国观众熟悉中世纪的情色话题，在这些话题中，性是程式化的。在15世纪的“Schwanke”(Wittenwielers Ring)中，情色场景被描述为露骨的性。

In the barock literature of the 17th century even the physical act is described extensively.

在17世纪的Barock文学中，甚至对物理行为也进行了广泛的描述。

According to „cumulativity“, every human being is a product of history and literature is based on previous literature, therefore the author of this pager thinks that this background has to be taken into account while translating.

根据“累积性”，每个人都是历史的产物，而文学是基于先前的文献，因此，该传呼机的作者认为翻译时必须考虑这一背景。

The best study on qing passion in the Dreams is the one by Anthony Yu, who understood it as desire and as the central motif of the Dreams. „The centrality of qing in shaping virtually every aspect of The Story of the Stone’s structure and meaning cannot be denied [...].“ (Anthony Yu 2001, 54).

关于梦中关于“情”最好的研究是安东尼·于（Anthony Yu）的研究，他将其理解为欲望和梦的中心主题。 “清香在塑造《石头的故事》的结构和意义的几乎每个方面的中心作用都不能否认。”（Anthony Yu 2001，54）。

In the framework story of the Dreams, the narrator consciously takes a stand against low-action and stereotypical pornographic literature as well as against the widespread romance novels (with the classic roles of the beautiful, talented woman and the poor scholar who finally achieves a respected position and prosperity by passing a civil service exam).

在《梦》的框架故事中，叙述者有意识地反对低俗的动作和陈规定型的色情文学，反对流传甚广的浪漫小说（以美丽的才女和通过公务员制度最终获得受人尊敬的地位的穷困书生为经典角色）。

In chapter 1 he says: ”of the true feelings of young people [...] nobody has reported about so far.”

在第一章中，他说：“关于年轻人的真实感受，[……]到目前为止还没有人报道过。”

Erotic scenes are described in a decent and associative way (“Game of clouds and rain”), while displaying another quality in its openness e.g. towards bisexuality.

情色场景被描述成一个体面和联想的方式（“云和雨的游戏”），同时显示了另一个开放性的性质，例如对双性恋。

The 'Red Chamber Dream' narrates the story of unfortunate lovers. Unfortunate lovers also in the West have a literary tradition, they constitute an archetype, such as Hero and Leander, Pyramus and Thisbe, Tristan and Isolde, Flore and Blanscheflur as well as Troilus and Cressida, the latter being considered the model for Arthur Brookes, who wrote Romeo and Juliet in 1562 and thus directly influenced Shakespeare.

《红楼梦》讲述了一对不幸的恋人的故事。不幸的恋人也有西方文学的传统,他们构成一个原型,如英雄和利安得、皮拉摩斯和提斯柏,特里斯坦与伊索尔德,凝花和Blanscheflur特洛伊罗斯和克雷西达,后者被认为是阿瑟·布鲁克斯的模型,他在1562年写了《罗密欧与朱丽叶》,从而直接影响了莎士比亚。玛丽安·加利克认为《红楼梦》和《浮士德》都是吸引我们的永恒女性的中心主题，顾城则称其为“永恒的处女”。

While Marián Galik saw as the central topic of both, the Dream and Faust, the eternal feminine, which draws us on high, Gu Cheng called it the “eternal virgine”.

玛丽安·加利克（Mariann Galik）认为《梦》和《浮士德》都是吸引我们的永恒女性的中心主题，顾城则称其为“永恒的处女”。

In Goethe’s coming-of-age novel Wilhelm Meisters Wanderjahre, we find a similar motif of female rivals, in the Keller 凯勒 The Green Henry 《绿衣亨利》1855, the hero turns away from an emphatically sexually designed figure and turns to the 'real' woman. In Jane Austen’s Pride and Prejudice 1813 Elizabeth and Lin Daiyu are similar, e.g. they both strive for real love (Zhuang 2011).

在歌德的成长小说Wilhelm Meisters Wanderjahre中，我们发现了类似的女性竞争主题，在凯勒The Green Henry（《绿衣亨利》1855）中，男主人公父亲早亡，母亲养育其成人。在简-奥斯汀的Pride and Prejudice（《傲慢与偏见》1813）中，伊丽莎白和林黛玉是相似的，比如她们都追求真爱（庄2011）。

==7. Feudal society and slavery==

7. 封建社会和奴隶

A widespread interpretation is that Jia Baoyu’s equal treatment of family members and slaves would be a manifesto to free the slaves. I also do not share this interpretation, since Aristotle, when he demanded democracy, would exclude slaves from the right to vote. So we cannot use modern concepts to judge on the past. In my understanding, Jia Baoyu was not fighting inequality, but looked at the people as humans and individuals.

人们普遍认为贾宝玉对待家庭成员和奴隶的平等对待是解放奴隶的宣言。我不同意这种解释，因为亚里士多德吁民主时，会将奴隶从投票权中剔除。所以我们不能用现代观点评判古人。我认为，贾宝玉并不是在为不平等而做斗争，而是将人区分为人或是个体。

Also the understanding of the servants as slaves does not match the description in the Dream, since some servants had servants themselves, the family took care after they left the Jia family to find a match for them and Jia Zheng refers to his daughter Yingchun as „yatou 丫头“, so it is inappropriate to translate this expression with slave. Therefore, the translator preferred “servant” over “slave” in the translation.

而且把仆人理解为奴隶与《红楼梦》中的描写不符，因为有些仆人自己还有仆人，贾府会在她们离府的时候为她们寻一门亲事，作为贾府对她们的照料；贾政也把自己的女儿迎春喊作 “丫头”，所以把这些翻译成奴隶是不合适的。因此英文翻译中采用“servant”会比“slave”更为合适。

Mo Yan in his speech at the Frankfurt Bookfair in 2009, when China was the guest of honor, draws the (similarly) parallel between the Dream and Goethe’s Sorrows of the Young Werther, that both expressed the wish to abandon feudal society. My own impression is that both do not express this wish, but that this is a later concept and interpretation and we should not apply this to judge the past.

2009年，莫言代表中国作为主宾国参加法兰克福书展时，在演讲中把《红楼梦》和歌德的《少年维特之哀》画上了约等号，表达了抛弃封建社会的愿望。我自己的感觉是，两者都没有表达这个愿望，但这是后来的概念和解释，我们不应该以此来判断过去。

==8. Tragedy of all tragedies==

8.最悲剧的悲剧

Aristotle explained in On the Tragedy (Poetics VI), that tragedies move people more than comedies because they “imitate [mimēsis] an action that is serious, complete, and of a certain magnitude” (Aristotle 1971, 51), This high esteem of the tragedy in Europe is partly ascribed to the loss of Aristotle’s work On the Comedy.

亚里士多德在《悲剧论》（诗学VI）中解释道，悲剧之所以比戏剧更加动人，是因为它们“模仿（mimēsis）一种严肃、完整且具有一定规模的行动”（Aristotle 1971，51）。悲剧在欧洲拥有崇高地位部分归因于亚里士多德的作品《论喜剧》的失传。

While Europe has the Hamlet as its tragedy of all tragedies, the lack of tragic literature in Chinese literary tradition has long been lamented. Wang Guowei sees the Dream as "tragedy of all tragedies". To Wang Guowei the suffering of Faust and Jia Baoyu is central in the novels. However, many scholars contest that Faustianism is central for Chinese culture.

欧洲悲剧中以《哈姆雷特》为悲剧，而中国文学传统中悲剧文学的缺失，长期以来被人们所惋惜。王国维认为《梦》是“所有悲剧中的悲剧”。对王国维来说，浮士德和贾宝玉的苦难是小说的中心。然而，许多学者认为浮士德主义是中国文化的核心。

In 18th century Europe, we saw a new development in the genre of the drama, to establish a “bourgeois tragedy”.

在18世纪的欧洲，我们看到了戏剧体裁的新发展，确立了“资产阶级悲剧”。

It developed as an emancipatory movement in the 18th century in London, Paris and Germany, and demonstrated that tragedy was not reserved to rulers, but was also imagineable for lower noblemen and ordinary citizens. The Dream at the same time as the bourgeois tragedy in Europe shows a tragic story of a mid-level noble family which loses its titles and privileges.

它作为一场解放运动在18世纪的伦敦、巴黎和德国发展起来，并证明了悲剧并非只发生在统治者身上，也可能发生在下层贵族和普通公民身上。《梦》与欧洲资产阶级悲剧同时上演，讲述的是一个中层贵族家庭失去头衔和特权的悲剧故事。

==9. “Non-Binary” Novels==

9. “非二元”小说

One of the things attracting Western readers is the adorable but mysterious protagonist Jia Baoyu. With his open bisexual orientation and his interest in his mates regardless of their social status, he appears “modern” or at least displaced in time. His struggle with traditional learning makes him appear sympathetic, his long states of rapture out of the world give him both the aura of a timeless character and of mystery.

一个吸引西方读者的东西是可爱而神秘的主人公贾宝玉。由于他开放的双性恋倾向和他对伴侣的兴趣，不管他们的社会地位如何，他显得“现代”或至少在时间上流离失所。他与传统学习的斗争使他显得富有同情心，他从世界上长期的狂喜给了他永恒的性格和神秘的气息。

With the bisexual orientation of the Dreams’ protagonist, the novel appears non-binary. According to German sinologist Karl-Heinz Pohl (2018), binaries are just superficial, ultimately decisive is the Heart Sutra. Today, the novel is listed among the genre of non-binary literature (see e.g. the bibliographical list on https://www.goodreads.com/list/tag/non-binary), in which contrasts are dissolved deconstructivistically.

随着梦中主人公的双性取向，小说呈现出非二元性。德国汉学家卜松山(2018)认为，二进制只是表面现象，最终起决定性作用的是“心经”。今天，这部小说被列为非二元文学的一个流派（参见https://www.goodreads.com/list/tag/non-binary)，其中的反差被解构主义地化解了。

==10. Foreign Cultures in the Red Chamber Dreams==

10.红楼梦中的异邦文化

Foreign Cultures frequently appear in the Dreams in all kinds of varieties, like exoticism with the many objects in the household and presented to the household as novelties, especially the blond girl of the same age as Baoyu referred to in person (combining different origins and cultures, including European, Japanese, Chinese) or several times on paintings, one time shown with wings as an angel.

红楼梦中经常出现各种各样的异邦文化元素，例如许多贾府物品带有异国情调，并是以新奇的形式呈现给贾府的，尤其是其中提到的与宝玉同龄的金发女孩（结合了不同的来历和文化，包括欧洲，日本，中国），金发女孩也多次在绘画中出现，有一次是以带翅膀的天使的形象出现。

The playful combination of different traditions we can see also when a religious dress is described, which carries characteristics of different religions. Similarly, the Daoist monk and the Confucian priest appear together. Cao Xueqin wanted to show the richness and diversity, also with the many topics and societal levels of the novel. Even a variety of Christian motifs can be found, like when Jia Baoyu is not recognized by his father in chapter 120 and when he disappears, all parallel to Jesus Christ.

宗教服饰带有不同宗教的特点，在描述一种宗教服饰时，我们也能体味不同宗教传统的玩味结合。同样，道士和儒士也可一起出现。曹雪芹想表现出小说的丰富性和多样性，同时也要展现出小说的众多主题和社会层次。在书中甚至可以找到各种基督教的主题，比如第120章贾宝玉不被父亲认可，以及贾宝玉消失的时候，这些都与耶稣基督平行。

The variety of cultures is paralleled with the variety of elements of different dynasties, which makes it timeless and therefore even more a masterpiece of Chinese art and a masterpiece of human art. Therefore I would like to nominate the Red Chamber Dreams as “World Documentary Heritage”.

文化的多样性与不同朝代的元素多样性相辅相成，这种多样性便其变得永恒，甚至因此而成为中国艺术杰作和人类艺术杰作。因此，我想提名《红楼梦》为“世界纪录片遗产”。

==References 参考文献==

*Anthony, C. Yu. (2001). Rereading the Stone: Desire and the Making of Fiction in Dream of the Red Chamber. Princeton University Press.
*Aristotle. (1971). Poetics. Trans. S. H. Butcher. Ed. Hazard Adams. Critical Theory since Plato. ew York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 48-66.
*Woesler, Martin, ed., Cao Xueqin, Gao E et al. (2016). Der Traum der Roten Kammer oder Die Geschichte vom Stein [Red Chamber Dreams or The Story of the Stone], Peking: Foreign Languages Press, ISBN 9787119094120, 4813 pages, 6 vols., hardcover, transl. by Rainer Schwarz and Martin Woesler; Chinese-German bilingual edition
*Woesler, Martin. (2011). “Being Explicit About the Implicit – John Minford’s Translation of the last Forty Chapters of The Story of the Stone with a Field Study on two Sexually Arousing Scenes”. Hong lou meng xue kan 6: 274-289
*Woesler, Martin. (2010). “ ’To Amuse the Beaux and Belles’ The Early Western Reception of the Hongloumeng”. Journal of Sino-Western Communications 2 (2010.12) 2:81-107
*Zhuang, Xiuhua. (2011). Self, Ideal and Salvation: A Comparative Study of Jane Austen’s Elizabeth and Cao Xueqin’s Lin Daiyu. Journal of Language Teaching and Research, Vol. 2, No. 2, pp. 420-423, March 2011. Fulltext: http://www.academypublication.com/issues/past/jltr/vol02/02/19.pdf.