China Studies Wiki - User contributions [en]

Talk:Urban Literature and the Fall of the Southern Song

2013-04-16T00:47:06Z

Ignatius J Reilly:

I really like how your page is formatted. Some form of illustration or pictures would add interest.--[[User:TaraDFroisland|MerchantThief]] ([[User talk:TaraDFroisland|talk]]) 10:28, 14 April 2013 (CEST)

I was going to say the exact same thing as MerchantThief. I really like the formatting and your headings and subheadings. It's easy to read and follow. And I agree, some sort of illustration or something would be nice. --[[User:Chameleon|Chameleon]] ([[User talk:Chameleon|talk]]) 22:13, 15 April 2013 (CEST)

You obviously don't know how to put pictures on your page. [[User:Ignatius J Reilly|Ignatius J Reilly]] ([[User talk:Ignatius J Reilly|talk]]) 02:47, 16 April 2013 (CEST)

Urban Literature and the Fall of the Southern Song

2013-04-16T00:46:19Z

Ignatius J Reilly: /* Urban Life In Prose */

== Urban Development During The Southern Song ==
During the late Northern Song there was a tremendous growth of cities, with one city - Bianliang (Kaifeng) - with a population of one million people, about 30 cities had a population of 40,000 - 100,000 or more each, sixty cities with a population of around 15,000, and approximately 400 county capitals with populations ranging from 4,000 to 5,000 each. A conservative estimate of 5% of China's total population were living in urban environments. The capital of Southern Song, Hangzhou, had a population of 1,500,000. Other cities, especially those port cities were equally important due to trade.(533)

Although most of the population resided within urban areas, their relationship with rural life was still crucial. Often, Chinese cities contained elements of rural life and there may be small urban groupings in outlying areas. People were free to travel as they wished between these two worlds. Everyone lived in accordance with the agrarian lunar calendar, which set the festivals and holidays throughout the year. (534) Of those, the major festivals were New Year, The Clear And Bright (Qingming), which occurred on the third day of the third month for people to sweep graves of their ancestors and relatives, the Double Fifth (Duanwu), when boat races were held, The Ghost Festival, when the Buddhist and Daoist temples performed services for the ghosts on the fifteen of the seventh month, and so on. On these major holidays, special foods were prepared and specific activities were carried out. People would come from the countryside to sell the special foods and necessary products for celebration. This pattern of openness between urban and rural areas, established during Song times, continued into subsequent dynasties. (534)

== Urban Life ==
*There was a huge and varied amount of entertainments to be had in the cities' Pleasure Quarters and would have included: comedy, dancing, singing, musical performances, narrative ballads, dressing up as students, spirits or ghosts, foot and hand tricks, shadow and puppet plays, acrobatics, boxing and wrestling, pole climbing, tightrope walking, telling jokes, storytelling (secular and religious,) riddles and puns, stave fighting, magic, football, training animals, flea circus and more. (Lin, 540)

* Also in the Pleasure Quarters were large theaters, featuring drama evolved from storytelling. Traditional Chinese theater appeared in the late Northern Song: zaju or variety play and zhugondiao or medley play. No primary texts exist from either of those Northern dramatic forms. The text A Record of the Millet Dream reports that a variety play "Maudgalyayana Rescues His Mother From Hell" was performed during the Ghost Festival in Kaifeng.

* An especially important group of entertainers in Song cities were the storytellers. "The storytellers included narrators of history, of stories from Buddhist sutras, of legends, romances, court cases, stories of heroes and of people who moved from rags to riches. Storytelling... reached a Golden Age in the Southern Song period." (Lin, 542) The audience for these stories were often uneducated, and so the language was a simple vernacular.

* Also mixing among the performers and patrons were fortunetellers and vendors of medicinal herbs, clothing, arts and crafts, and many varieties of foods and drinks.

== Urban Life In Poetry ==
The growth and importance of cities is reflected in the works of lyrics and poems: 
<center>A supreme spot in the southeast, 
The metropolis in all of the Wu region, 
Qiantang has flourished from old. 
Misty Willows and painted bridges, 
Green curtains and windscreens - 
There are a hundred thousand households of all sizes. 
.... 
In the Markets, pearls are displayed, 
Houses brimming with silks, 
Vying with each other for extravagance. </center>

<center>**** 
Wugui's a romantic place - 
The houses are exquisite, 
High and low, built by water's edge and on hilltop; 
With jade terraces and crimson gates, 
This could be Fairy Hill. 
With a myriad wells, a thousand alleys, and a rich populace, 
It surpasses all thirteen provinces. 
Everywhere you see black-browed girls in painted boats, 
And rouged and powdered women in red mansions. </center>

<center>- Liu Yong </center>

(Qiantang was the old name of Hangzhou, and Wugui refers to the city of Suzhou.) These pieces by Liu Yong describe the cities as flourishing, grandiose places of irresistible attraction. During the Southern Song, "urban life became far more extravagant and ostentatious." (535) Some people were critical of the decadent behavior witnessed around them, of course, but generally the poetry of the day reflected a beautiful, ethereal quality:
<center>Hills beyond hills, and mansions beyond mansions, 
Singing and dancing on West Lake - when will they ever end? 
The warm breeze fumes revelers till they are drunk, 
Simply taking Hangzhou as the capital Bianliang. </center>
<center> - Lin Sheng </center> 

As with all lovely dreams, they must end. The poets of the Southern Song all agreed they were living in a marvelous time, a Golden Age, and all were aware of how lucky they were to be alive in such an era, but were under no illusion that this way of life was to last forever.

== Urban Life In Prose ==

[[File:West Lake.jpg|thumb|center|West Lake by Nat Krause.]]

5 Texts 

There are five texts which recount details about urban life and customs. "They constitute... a new genre of prose, a sort of journal or notebook devoted to recording the splendors and pleasures of the city." (537) There are three points that all five texts have in common: First, all seem to have been written by authors late in their lives. Second, all texts contain records of events the author has either witnessed firsthand or heard while living in the subject city. And, third, all contain the idea of "dream" or the word is used explicitly to describe events or the general quality of life during these times. The direct relation of a dream experience was not found prior to the late Song dynasty.

The Eastern Capital: A Record of the Dreamland (Dongjing menghua) by Meng Yuanlao was dated to ca. 1147. This volume was the only one written about Kaifeng and was the first of the capital city texts. Later writers would compare contemporary events nostalgically with Kaifeng, wistful about the "good old days." 

A Record of the Capital City's Splendors (Ducheng jisheng) by The Old Man Of Forbearance Who Irrigates His Garden was dated ca. 1235. Portions of this text were found to have been copied in Wu Zimu's text. This was one of the two texts that did not use the word "dream" specifically. 

The Old Man of West Lake's Record of Innumerable Splendors (Xihu laoren fansheng lu) by (of course) The Old Man of West Lake ca. 1235, after the above text was written. Also does not mention "dream" directly, but "it might not be far-fetched to say that the fear that the glories and splendors of Hangzhou would soon fade like dreams," (538) prompting the authors to record for posterity the beauty of their city. 

A Record of the Millet Dream (Mengliang lu) by Wu Zimu was possibly written just before the fall of Hangzhou in 1276. This text contained portions of A Record of the Capital City's Splendors copied verbatim, but scholars still believe the text contained significant direct experiences of the author. Although the exact date is unknown, this text is believed to have been written before the Mongols captured Hangzhou, but with the foresight of impending doom for the glorious urban life Wu had known.

Old Events at the Martial Forest (Wulin jiushi) by Zhou Mi was estimated to have been written sometime between 1280 and 1290, after the fall of the Song dynasty. Wulin or "Martial Forest" was another name for Hangzhou. Zhou Mi was the only scholar, poet, and writer of repute among the authors of the five texts and when he recounted his past he recalls "it was like a dream."

==The Fall of the Southern Song==

The Southern Song and the Jin were able to coexist more or less peacefully with only a few military skirmishes to disrupt that harmony. Treaties between the Jin and the Southern Song were adjusted following failed campaigns on both sides, but military actions were short-lived and almost entirely ignored by the general populace. While the Jin and the Southern Song lived in peace, around the beginning of the 13th century a new confederation was being forged that would eventually spell the end for both the Jin and Southern Song. 
 
The Khan and the Mongol Confederation 
Chinggis (Ghengis) Khan: Temüjin of the nomadic Borijin clan was a ruthless military genius who was responsible for the creation of the Mongol confederation. A great tribal assembly was held in 1206 and Temüjin was confirmed in the title Chinggis Khan or "Universal Ruler." Once all of the Mongol tribes were united under his leadership, there was virtually nothing to stand in the way. Within twenty years, almost all of the kingdoms and empires of the inner Eurasian continent, Mongolia, and Manchuria were conquered by the death of Chinggis Khan in 1227, laying the foundation for a vast new empire. (Lin, 543)
[[File:KhubilaiOnTheHunt.jpg|thumb|Kubilai Khan on the hunt]]
Because the Jin dynasty in the north served as a buffer zone, the Southern Song did not fall to the Mongol invasion in this first wave. While the Mongols under Chinggis Khan were being consolidated into the "invincible war machine" they were to become, the Southern Song was entering into its golden era of brilliance. The conquest of the Jin was eventually to be completed by the son of Chinggis Khan, Ögödei, who became the Great Khan in 1229. Ögödei concentrated his efforts in Sichuan on the western borders of the Song. The invasion of Song China began after Möngke, a grandson of Chinggis, became the Great Khan in 1251. in 1253 Möngke ordered his second brother, Khubilai to invade western China. When Möngke fell ill and died in 1259, all military action against Song China was suspended.

Khubilai (Kublai) Khan: After the death of his brother Möngke, Khubilai declared himself his successor. A younger brother, Arigh Böke contested this claim and also declared himself to be the new leader of the confederation. A civil war ensued until Khubilai's army prevailed in 1264. Khubilai Khan restarted his invasion of the Southern Song two years after Arigh Böke died in captivity in 1268. A change in strategy was necessary due to the fact that the Mongol cavalry was not used to the terrain (rivers, mountains, canals, densely populated areas) and so the Mongol takeover was a bit slower than previous campaigns and it was more than 10 years before the last of the Southern Song's resistance fell. (Lin, 544)

 
Literati Warriors 
After the fall of the Southern Song and the creation of the subsequent Yuan dynasty, the elite began to withdraw from society. They chose instead to privately pursue their interests in the arts, literature, and scholarship. (545) Some of the elite literati, however, were not content with passive resistance. 
 
Wen Tianxiang was the most famous of the Literati turned warriors. When the Mongols were approaching Hangzhou, the Song court asked all local leaders for assistance in defending the state. Wen quickly gave up all of his family property for military use and recruited at least 10,000 soldiers from his prefecture of Ganzhou. (546) Wen was eventually promoted to grand councilor and was captured in 1278 and sent to the Yuan capital at Yan. For three years Wen refused offers to serve the Mongols and was executed in 1283. The poetry of Wen Tianxing was referred to as "mediocre" before he found his passion in patriotic writing. Wen's most famous work is "Song of the Righteous Breath of Life" which he wrote while imprisoned.

==Presentation Upload & Works Cited==

Kang-i Sun Chang, Stephen Owen, eds., The Cambridge History of Chinese Literature 2 volume set (Hardcover), 1704 pages, Cambridge University Press; 1st ed. March 31, 2010. "The Pleasures of the City," and "The fall of the Southern Song," Shuen-fu Lin.

[[Media:Southern Song & Urban Lit by Jenny_R.pptx]] Powerpoint by Jenny R

Urban Literature and the Fall of the Southern Song

2013-04-16T00:44:54Z

Ignatius J Reilly: /* Urban Life In Poetry */

== Urban Development During The Southern Song ==
During the late Northern Song there was a tremendous growth of cities, with one city - Bianliang (Kaifeng) - with a population of one million people, about 30 cities had a population of 40,000 - 100,000 or more each, sixty cities with a population of around 15,000, and approximately 400 county capitals with populations ranging from 4,000 to 5,000 each. A conservative estimate of 5% of China's total population were living in urban environments. The capital of Southern Song, Hangzhou, had a population of 1,500,000. Other cities, especially those port cities were equally important due to trade.(533)

Although most of the population resided within urban areas, their relationship with rural life was still crucial. Often, Chinese cities contained elements of rural life and there may be small urban groupings in outlying areas. People were free to travel as they wished between these two worlds. Everyone lived in accordance with the agrarian lunar calendar, which set the festivals and holidays throughout the year. (534) Of those, the major festivals were New Year, The Clear And Bright (Qingming), which occurred on the third day of the third month for people to sweep graves of their ancestors and relatives, the Double Fifth (Duanwu), when boat races were held, The Ghost Festival, when the Buddhist and Daoist temples performed services for the ghosts on the fifteen of the seventh month, and so on. On these major holidays, special foods were prepared and specific activities were carried out. People would come from the countryside to sell the special foods and necessary products for celebration. This pattern of openness between urban and rural areas, established during Song times, continued into subsequent dynasties. (534)

== Urban Life ==
*There was a huge and varied amount of entertainments to be had in the cities' Pleasure Quarters and would have included: comedy, dancing, singing, musical performances, narrative ballads, dressing up as students, spirits or ghosts, foot and hand tricks, shadow and puppet plays, acrobatics, boxing and wrestling, pole climbing, tightrope walking, telling jokes, storytelling (secular and religious,) riddles and puns, stave fighting, magic, football, training animals, flea circus and more. (Lin, 540)

* Also in the Pleasure Quarters were large theaters, featuring drama evolved from storytelling. Traditional Chinese theater appeared in the late Northern Song: zaju or variety play and zhugondiao or medley play. No primary texts exist from either of those Northern dramatic forms. The text A Record of the Millet Dream reports that a variety play "Maudgalyayana Rescues His Mother From Hell" was performed during the Ghost Festival in Kaifeng.

* An especially important group of entertainers in Song cities were the storytellers. "The storytellers included narrators of history, of stories from Buddhist sutras, of legends, romances, court cases, stories of heroes and of people who moved from rags to riches. Storytelling... reached a Golden Age in the Southern Song period." (Lin, 542) The audience for these stories were often uneducated, and so the language was a simple vernacular.

* Also mixing among the performers and patrons were fortunetellers and vendors of medicinal herbs, clothing, arts and crafts, and many varieties of foods and drinks.

== Urban Life In Poetry ==
The growth and importance of cities is reflected in the works of lyrics and poems: 
<center>A supreme spot in the southeast, 
The metropolis in all of the Wu region, 
Qiantang has flourished from old. 
Misty Willows and painted bridges, 
Green curtains and windscreens - 
There are a hundred thousand households of all sizes. 
.... 
In the Markets, pearls are displayed, 
Houses brimming with silks, 
Vying with each other for extravagance. </center>

<center>**** 
Wugui's a romantic place - 
The houses are exquisite, 
High and low, built by water's edge and on hilltop; 
With jade terraces and crimson gates, 
This could be Fairy Hill. 
With a myriad wells, a thousand alleys, and a rich populace, 
It surpasses all thirteen provinces. 
Everywhere you see black-browed girls in painted boats, 
And rouged and powdered women in red mansions. </center>

<center>- Liu Yong </center>

(Qiantang was the old name of Hangzhou, and Wugui refers to the city of Suzhou.) These pieces by Liu Yong describe the cities as flourishing, grandiose places of irresistible attraction. During the Southern Song, "urban life became far more extravagant and ostentatious." (535) Some people were critical of the decadent behavior witnessed around them, of course, but generally the poetry of the day reflected a beautiful, ethereal quality:
<center>Hills beyond hills, and mansions beyond mansions, 
Singing and dancing on West Lake - when will they ever end? 
The warm breeze fumes revelers till they are drunk, 
Simply taking Hangzhou as the capital Bianliang. </center>
<center> - Lin Sheng </center> 

As with all lovely dreams, they must end. The poets of the Southern Song all agreed they were living in a marvelous time, a Golden Age, and all were aware of how lucky they were to be alive in such an era, but were under no illusion that this way of life was to last forever.

== Urban Life In Prose ==
5 Texts 

There are five texts which recount details about urban life and customs. "They constitute... a new genre of prose, a sort of journal or notebook devoted to recording the splendors and pleasures of the city." (537) There are three points that all five texts have in common: First, all seem to have been written by authors late in their lives. Second, all texts contain records of events the author has either witnessed firsthand or heard while living in the subject city. And, third, all contain the idea of "dream" or the word is used explicitly to describe events or the general quality of life during these times. The direct relation of a dream experience was not found prior to the late Song dynasty.

The Eastern Capital: A Record of the Dreamland (Dongjing menghua) by Meng Yuanlao was dated to ca. 1147. This volume was the only one written about Kaifeng and was the first of the capital city texts. Later writers would compare contemporary events nostalgically with Kaifeng, wistful about the "good old days." 

A Record of the Capital City's Splendors (Ducheng jisheng) by The Old Man Of Forbearance Who Irrigates His Garden was dated ca. 1235. Portions of this text were found to have been copied in Wu Zimu's text. This was one of the two texts that did not use the word "dream" specifically. 

The Old Man of West Lake's Record of Innumerable Splendors (Xihu laoren fansheng lu) by (of course) The Old Man of West Lake ca. 1235, after the above text was written. Also does not mention "dream" directly, but "it might not be far-fetched to say that the fear that the glories and splendors of Hangzhou would soon fade like dreams," (538) prompting the authors to record for posterity the beauty of their city. 

A Record of the Millet Dream (Mengliang lu) by Wu Zimu was possibly written just before the fall of Hangzhou in 1276. This text contained portions of A Record of the Capital City's Splendors copied verbatim, but scholars still believe the text contained significant direct experiences of the author. Although the exact date is unknown, this text is believed to have been written before the Mongols captured Hangzhou, but with the foresight of impending doom for the glorious urban life Wu had known.

Old Events at the Martial Forest (Wulin jiushi) by Zhou Mi was estimated to have been written sometime between 1280 and 1290, after the fall of the Song dynasty. Wulin or "Martial Forest" was another name for Hangzhou. Zhou Mi was the only scholar, poet, and writer of repute among the authors of the five texts and when he recounted his past he recalls "it was like a dream."

==The Fall of the Southern Song==

The Southern Song and the Jin were able to coexist more or less peacefully with only a few military skirmishes to disrupt that harmony. Treaties between the Jin and the Southern Song were adjusted following failed campaigns on both sides, but military actions were short-lived and almost entirely ignored by the general populace. While the Jin and the Southern Song lived in peace, around the beginning of the 13th century a new confederation was being forged that would eventually spell the end for both the Jin and Southern Song. 
 
The Khan and the Mongol Confederation 
Chinggis (Ghengis) Khan: Temüjin of the nomadic Borijin clan was a ruthless military genius who was responsible for the creation of the Mongol confederation. A great tribal assembly was held in 1206 and Temüjin was confirmed in the title Chinggis Khan or "Universal Ruler." Once all of the Mongol tribes were united under his leadership, there was virtually nothing to stand in the way. Within twenty years, almost all of the kingdoms and empires of the inner Eurasian continent, Mongolia, and Manchuria were conquered by the death of Chinggis Khan in 1227, laying the foundation for a vast new empire. (Lin, 543)
[[File:KhubilaiOnTheHunt.jpg|thumb|Kubilai Khan on the hunt]]
Because the Jin dynasty in the north served as a buffer zone, the Southern Song did not fall to the Mongol invasion in this first wave. While the Mongols under Chinggis Khan were being consolidated into the "invincible war machine" they were to become, the Southern Song was entering into its golden era of brilliance. The conquest of the Jin was eventually to be completed by the son of Chinggis Khan, Ögödei, who became the Great Khan in 1229. Ögödei concentrated his efforts in Sichuan on the western borders of the Song. The invasion of Song China began after Möngke, a grandson of Chinggis, became the Great Khan in 1251. in 1253 Möngke ordered his second brother, Khubilai to invade western China. When Möngke fell ill and died in 1259, all military action against Song China was suspended.

Khubilai (Kublai) Khan: After the death of his brother Möngke, Khubilai declared himself his successor. A younger brother, Arigh Böke contested this claim and also declared himself to be the new leader of the confederation. A civil war ensued until Khubilai's army prevailed in 1264. Khubilai Khan restarted his invasion of the Southern Song two years after Arigh Böke died in captivity in 1268. A change in strategy was necessary due to the fact that the Mongol cavalry was not used to the terrain (rivers, mountains, canals, densely populated areas) and so the Mongol takeover was a bit slower than previous campaigns and it was more than 10 years before the last of the Southern Song's resistance fell. (Lin, 544)

 
Literati Warriors 
After the fall of the Southern Song and the creation of the subsequent Yuan dynasty, the elite began to withdraw from society. They chose instead to privately pursue their interests in the arts, literature, and scholarship. (545) Some of the elite literati, however, were not content with passive resistance. 
 
Wen Tianxiang was the most famous of the Literati turned warriors. When the Mongols were approaching Hangzhou, the Song court asked all local leaders for assistance in defending the state. Wen quickly gave up all of his family property for military use and recruited at least 10,000 soldiers from his prefecture of Ganzhou. (546) Wen was eventually promoted to grand councilor and was captured in 1278 and sent to the Yuan capital at Yan. For three years Wen refused offers to serve the Mongols and was executed in 1283. The poetry of Wen Tianxing was referred to as "mediocre" before he found his passion in patriotic writing. Wen's most famous work is "Song of the Righteous Breath of Life" which he wrote while imprisoned.

==Presentation Upload & Works Cited==

Kang-i Sun Chang, Stephen Owen, eds., The Cambridge History of Chinese Literature 2 volume set (Hardcover), 1704 pages, Cambridge University Press; 1st ed. March 31, 2010. "The Pleasures of the City," and "The fall of the Southern Song," Shuen-fu Lin.

[[Media:Southern Song & Urban Lit by Jenny_R.pptx]] Powerpoint by Jenny R

Talk:The Merchant Elite and Vernacular Writing

2013-04-16T00:42:51Z

Ignatius J Reilly:

Maybe you could add more info on what Vernacular Writing means? --[[User:TaraDFroisland|MerchantThief]] ([[User talk:TaraDFroisland|talk]]) 10:25, 14 April 2013 (CEST)

Really nicely done. The formatting is interesting and broken up well. The illustrations are well-placed and balanced. The information is easy to follow and said well. Looks good. --[[User:Chameleon|Chameleon]] ([[User talk:Chameleon|talk]]) 22:16, 15 April 2013 (CEST)

Very thorough, well-researched work. [[User:Ignatius J Reilly|Ignatius J Reilly]] ([[User talk:Ignatius J Reilly|talk]]) 02:42, 16 April 2013 (CEST)

Talk:Wang Anshi

2013-04-16T00:39:38Z

Ignatius J Reilly: /* makes a bolded, unobtrusive heading, like this, */

Your page looks very good. The organization is specifically very strong. The layout is interesting and the information is presented in a logical and understandable way. I especially liked the author notes on the biography. I think more commentary could definitely add to the piece. Also, I think you section "What is 'Ten Thousand Word Memorial?'" could be divided into smaller categories. You can make smaller headings by putting a different number of "=" around your headings. Five "=" marks
===== makes a bolded, unobtrusive heading, like this, =====
which can be effectively added in to strengthen an already strong page. [[User:Cappuccino|Cappuccino]] ([[User talk:Cappuccino|talk]])

I agree, the section "what is ten thousand word memorial" could be more broken up with smaller headings. Your page looks good though. I also wouldn't mind reading more under the biography section. It was kind of short, but maybe it's hard to find information about him, i don't know. But nicely done! It looks great and the pictures are fun. Good choice --[[User:Chameleon|Chameleon]] ([[User talk:Chameleon|talk]]) 22:10, 15 April 2013 (CEST)

If the original 10k word memorial is a copy of the original document or primary text, perhaps a way to set that apart to make it more apparent? Otherwise, well done. As stated before, nice use of pictures. [[User:Ignatius J Reilly|Ignatius J Reilly]] ([[User talk:Ignatius J Reilly|talk]]) 02:39, 16 April 2013 (CEST)

Talk:Zhu Xi and Neo-Confucianism

2013-04-16T00:36:07Z

Ignatius J Reilly: Created page with "This looks really great. Nice use of graphics. ~~~~"

This looks really great. Nice use of graphics. [[User:Ignatius J Reilly|Ignatius J Reilly]] ([[User talk:Ignatius J Reilly|talk]]) 02:36, 16 April 2013 (CEST)

Talk:Du Fu

2013-03-01T21:54:19Z

Ignatius J Reilly: /* New comments in 2013 */

=New comments in 2013=
Brandon! Your article is quite outstanding. I am impressed with the organization and am going to implement some of it in my next article because I feel that it helps things flow a bit better and move along. I would suggest though that when you have the two poems (one in Chinese and one in translation) that you put them side by side so you can tell more easily that they belong together. Also it would show the contrast between the two languages which would be a cool visual to add to what you already have. [[User:Samantha S|Samantha S]] ([[User talk:Samantha S|talk]]) 03:16, 1 March 2013 (CET)

Dear Brandon, impressive! Can you try to add a little bit more from the commentator role (maybe indicated by "Contemporary Commentator" and then evaluate and discuss the topic from different angles, put it into context, criticize etc.). Best, [[User:Root|Root]] ([[User talk:Root|talk]]) 13:58, 25 February 2013 (CET)

WOW! I have nothing to say that could really help you. My only suggestion could be to expand your conclusion, but even then I dont know if it really needs it. --[[User:TaraDFroisland|MerchantThief]] ([[User talk:TaraDFroisland|talk]]) 00:43, 28 February 2013 (CET)

Great Article. I like the use of Chinese Characters to go along with the sections. My only suggestions would be perhaps a few more photos so we can get a more visual experience with Du Fu. --[[User:Joshua B.|Joshua B.]] ([[User talk:Joshua B.|talk]]) 19:37, 1 March 2013 (CET)

Wow, indeed! Very cool. I don't really see a need for pictures because the page is so well-written. Excellent. My favorite one yet. [[User:Ignatius J Reilly|Ignatius J Reilly]] ([[User talk:Ignatius J Reilly|talk]]) 22:54, 1 March 2013 (CET)

=Old comments=
Good start, I'm impressed- your English writing is quite good. Just a word of advice, double check your spelling ( I have trouble with that too!). I corrected a couple of errors for you ("poets" instead of "poems" etc,).

I like the "tone" of your paper so far. It easy to imagine Du Fu really sitting here talking. I hope you can keep it up in the rest of the paper.[[User:Dekeo|Dekeo]] 05:56, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Have you decided on an argument yet? One option is that you could argue about what had the strongest affect on Du Fu's writing; Taoism, Buddhism, his travels, other poets, personal experiences, or the Classics. You could contrast Du Fu with other poets of the time to prove how he was unique and a rebel, or you could compare him to other poets to show that he wasn't too different. You could try explaining why you think he wasn't popular during his lifetime and why he became popular later. You could argue that he was the best poet, or point out his flaws. You could even do a combination of these things. [[User:Name|Name]] 08:02, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

===Alchemist1330===
I generally like it so far. for your aurument you can analize a poem of your ffrom your point of view like WANTONG not Du Fu and support your claims. bye bye... black bird

== comment ==

I would <3 a picture. Or two. Or five. x3
But I love your tone and it is written very well, just needs meat on its bones.
You will hear more from me later!--[[User:Checksum|Checksum]] 03:39, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

== Comment ==
Late comment, but it seems a bit short... --[[User:Whatisthis|Whatisthis]] 07:05, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Talk:Li Bai

2013-03-01T21:51:24Z

Ignatius J Reilly: /* New comments in 2013 */

=New comments in 2013=
Josh! This is a very detailed page. I enjoyed reading it. The first thing I noticed though was that your pictures didn't have the citations underneath them and that concerned me a bit. But then I noticed them at the end of the article. So I suppose that is alright. Also I found it a bit redundant when you would narrate something and then basically quote it right after. I think it would be okay to put the citation after the narration to show where you got that information rather than saying things twice. I don't think it would affect your page limit by doing that. It's already really long. The poems at the end were good to have there but as a visual maybe put them side by side? Overall I thought it was great. Those were just a few things I noticed right off. [[User:Samantha S|Samantha S]] ([[User talk:Samantha S|talk]]) 03:07, 1 March 2013 (CET)

Dear Joshua, please start by uploading your powerpoint presentation and then revise the existing article. Now it is still too short. The final version should be 7 pages. You need to stick to the 1st person narrative ("I", "me" etc.) and not only describe things, but also switch to the commentator role (maybe indicated by "Contemporary Commentator" and then evaluate and discuss the topic from different angles, put it into context, criticize etc.). If you want to write less, you can integrate more pictures. Please make sure to indicate your source after each sentence or, if there is a whole paragraph with the same source, after each paragraph. You can indicate it like "Smith 2009:345" and in the final section "References" write the long version "Smith, Jared, Confucius revisted, Yale University Press 2009, 415 pp." In the edit mode, section headers are indicated with "=" and sub section headers with "==". In the edit mode, paragraphs need to be marked with 2 line feeds ("Enter" key). 1 Line feed will not show up as a paragraph. For additional editing tips, including how to indicate sources and how to find copyright free pictures, please refer to [http://wiki.vm.rub.de/uvu/index.php/uvu:Community_Portal]. Good luck with your composition! Best, [[User:Root|Root]] ([[User talk:Root|talk]]) 13:54, 25 February 2013 (CET)

It would be good to have some examples of Li Bai's poems. Specifically looking at the poetry section, the grammar could be tightened up. [[User:Cappuccino|Cappuccino]] ([[User talk:Cappuccino|talk]]) 16:19, 27 February 2013 (CET)

I too think some more examples of Li Bai's poetry would be nice with some commentary. I think the part already added about his life being a shortcut/ easy way out was interesting so maybe some more detail on that could be used. Maybe graphical examples of his poetry- such as the calligraphy etc could also enhance this article.--[[User:TaraDFroisland|MerchantThief]] ([[User talk:TaraDFroisland|talk]]) 00:39, 28 February 2013 (CET)

This is probably the best article I have seen yet. More visuals would be nice and more poems from Li Bai or other good pictures would be great. I think that you have a lot of smaller snippets of specific information and if you could go more in depth on those snippets it would lend a lot more to the length and the quality. [[User:A Nonny Mouse|A Nonny Mouse]] ([[User talk:A Nonny Mouse|talk]]) 00:51, 28 February 2013 (CET)

Agreed, marvelous article. There seems to be a lot of white space between topics, can that be tightened up a bit? Otherwise, I have no complaints. [[User:Ignatius J Reilly|Ignatius J Reilly]] ([[User talk:Ignatius J Reilly|talk]]) 22:51, 1 March 2013 (CET)

=Old comments=
==Author's Note==
# I'm really trying to get my sources tight- if you notice anything that you think should have a citation next to it, please tell me so!
# Quality over quantity! I know its rather short: if you think it should be longer just say so.
#I just have to say so myself, I think my topic is hilarious.
Thanks,
--[[User:ArnoldQ|ArnoldQ]] 07:53, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Good Start- it sounds like reading your paper is going to be a lot of fun- totally suitable "voice" for your poet.
Be sure to double check you spelling though- right after saying you might be of Turkish descent, you say "My probably" instead of "I". Simple mistake; a good proofreading will take care of that.[[User:Dekeo|Dekeo]] 06:02, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

==Aclhemist1330==

Please talk about your death and horn growing story it was the highlight off your whole presentation and capture the voice of a drunkard in some areas.
I really like the lay out and flow make sure you have refences

== looking good ==

You don't have to worry about any of your sources. You were very thorough. I don't think the length of your paper is a problem. Being able to make a concise argument in a short amount of space is a good thing. Still, making the paper longer won't hurt you if you are worried about your grade and are still working on this paper. [[User:Name|Name]] 04:41, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

== Comment ? ==
The sources look fine. Considering yours is solid text and not poem fillers, the length is of no problem. More pictures would be nice though~ --[[User:Whatisthis|Whatisthis]] 06:34, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

== interesting! ==

I would expand on his poetry more, although that isn't really your topic. Maybe cite the second picture better. I would add a few more pictures actually. No errors, but can't hurt to double check. --[[User:Checksum|Checksum]] 07:06, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Talk:6th century Literature in the south

2013-03-01T21:48:36Z

Ignatius J Reilly: /* Comments for 2013 */

==Comments for 2013==
Matt! The information is interesting. I would suggest adding more information though. The second paragraph particularly felt like a list rather than an actual paragraph so I would suggest using bullet points when you list information that way. Also the article is rather short so I wouls also suggest adding more information so the article is more complete. [[User:Samantha S|Samantha S]] ([[User talk:Samantha S|talk]]) 00:04, 1 March 2013 (CET)

Matt, You have some decent information here but try and go in depth on your subjects. I want to know more about all of them. Give more quotes and poems of the important works of that time. Also provide a picture or two. Try and find some stuff from the time period that will really wow the class. [[User:A Nonny Mouse|A Nonny Mouse]] ([[User talk:A Nonny Mouse|talk]]) 00:21, 28 February 2013 (CET)

Mat- Some images would be nice so that the reader can get a better feel of whats going on. I think it would also be nice to know a little more about the prominent people of the time and maybe examples of their works. You also have a couple broken links in the page, but those are easy to fix.--[[User:TaraDFroisland|MerchantThief]] ([[User talk:TaraDFroisland|talk]]) 00:47, 28 February 2013 (CET)

Matt, the information here is great. I would like to see you expound a bit more of the influential people and why they are so important. A bit more detail would be great along with some pictures to help illustrate the story and topic. --[[User:Joshua B.|Joshua B.]] ([[User talk:Joshua B.|talk]]) 19:34, 1 March 2013 (CET)

Mat- Fix the few broken links, as stated above. Maybe show us the actual text of some of the "Important Works" you've mentioned? [[User:Ignatius J Reilly|Ignatius J Reilly]] ([[User talk:Ignatius J Reilly|talk]]) 22:48, 1 March 2013 (CET)

Talk:Writing with your own blood

2013-03-01T21:45:52Z

Ignatius J Reilly: /* New comments in 2013 */

=New comments in 2013=
Lela! I'm sad I missed this presentation...It is so interesting. It is really short though.I would suggest adding more information where it could be added. Also some images of this topic would be really neat to see if you could find some. I've had a hard time finding some photos for my article so I know it can be difficult. Also you have tons of resources and not a lot of information. I would like to hear some narrative on the topic so we can get a different point of view rather than the bullet points. [[User:Samantha S|Samantha S]] ([[User talk:Samantha S|talk]]) 00:37, 1 March 2013 (CET)

Dear Lela, please go to your google.docs page, click on "File" and "Save as" and save it as pptx. Then upload your powerpoint presentation and extend the existing article. Now it is still too short. The final version should be 7 pages. You should not only describe things, but also switch to the commentator role (maybe indicated by "Contemporary Commentator" and then evaluate and discuss the topic from different angles, put it into context, criticize etc.). If you want to write less, you can integrate more pictures. Please make sure to indicate your source after each sentence or, if there is a whole paragraph with the same source, after each paragraph. You can indicate it like "Smith 2009:345" and in the final section "References" write the long version "Smith, Jared, Confucius revisted, Yale University Press 2009, 415 pp." In the edit mode, section headers are indicated with "=" and sub section headers with "==". In the edit mode, paragraphs need to be marked with 2 line feeds ("Enter" key). 1 Line feed will not show up as a paragraph. For additional editing tips, including how to indicate sources and how to find copyright free pictures, please refer to [http://wiki.vm.rub.de/uvu/index.php/uvu:Community_Portal]. Good luck with your composition! Best, [[User:Root|Root]] ([[User talk:Root|talk]]) 13:53, 25 February 2013 (CET)

Maybe some visual examples will give insight to this. Other examples would be nice as well. Its really interesting to see what these individuals would do to prove themselves! --[[User:TaraDFroisland|TaraDFroisland]] ([[User talk:TaraDFroisland|talk]]) 00:28, 28 February 2013 (CET)

More information would be a great addition. Pictures would be good to see as well, I know that they might be pretty gruesome to search for but it could help a lot. Your presentation had some really amazing stuff about that girl who wrote in her own blood and to see more on her would be great including the video clips you showed in class. [[User:A Nonny Mouse|A Nonny Mouse]] ([[User talk:A Nonny Mouse|talk]]) 00:46, 28 February 2013 (CET)

This was one of the most interesting topics. I really enjoyed the presentation. I also think it would be great to add a bit more information and any possible pictures if any. I agree with the comment above about how maybe more could be said about the influence it has had. I did enjoy that story of that young girl. That brought the story to life.--[[User:Joshua B.|Joshua B.]] ([[User talk:Joshua B.|talk]]) 19:32, 1 March 2013 (CET)

I see the disclaimer that this is a work in progress, so I hope to see a bit more information added in the future. Fascinating topic! [[User:Ignatius J Reilly|Ignatius J Reilly]] ([[User talk:Ignatius J Reilly|talk]]) 22:45, 1 March 2013 (CET)

=Old comments=
Creepy yet good. a Picture or two would be nice. Alchemist1330

===Comment 2===

In the FILIAL PIETY section, why does cutting off fingers mean devotion? And why must Zhou write in blood? She can just sit and do nothing. --[[User:Meh|Meh]] 07:37, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Tao Yuanming

2013-03-01T21:42:36Z

Ignatius J Reilly: /* Translations of Poetry */

== Life ==
[[File:330px-'Tao Yuanming', ink on paper scroll by Min Zhen, 18th century china.jpg|thumb|Tao Yuanming, by Min Zhen,from 18th century China.]]
* I was born in 365(CE) at Chaisang in Jiangxi province to a formerly prominent southern noble family. My great-grandfather, Tao Kan, had been a Jin Commander, but our station in society had declined by the time of my birth.

* I served many civil and military posts, but none of high position or with any distinction.

* During this period of service in a series of minor posts, my poems begin to indicate that I was becoming torn between ambition and a desire to retreat into solitude.

* One source states I was the first Chinese poet to grapple with the justification of my decision to withdraw from office. [Nienhauser, 193]

* Last position was of county magistrate -- a post I held for only 80 days -- at Pengze, which was not far from my hometown. [Watson, 493]

* In 405 my sister died. This, in addition to my disgust at the corruption and infighting of the Jin Court, lead me to resign. I had become convinced that life was too short to compromise my principles. I have a personal inclination towards a private life of leisure and spontaneity.

* The last 22 years of my life I lived as a farmer with my family (I had 5 sons) near Mount Lu, the famous "southern mountain." [Watson, 493]

* ''"For the family and appointment details some kind of official source may be presumed, but for the character anecdotes it seems to me probable that T'ao's own writings were in most cases the prime source. Before they were gathered into the histories, they had acquired a greater or less degree of exaggeration and had been sometimes set for the sake of verisimilitude in particular but doubtful contexts. If this view is correct, to use the anecdotal material of the biographies to provide a context for particular poems of T'ao is clearly a risky proceeding."'' -- A.R. Davis [Tian, 57]

--[[User:Jenny R|Jenny R]] 01:35, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

== Poetry ==

First, what is reclusion?
Here is a great quote from Fredrick Mote:

<blockquote>"in Chinese society... [terms designating recluses] signified withdrawal from the active
public life in the service of society that Confucian ethics prescribed as the most suitable
course for all whose abilities, cultivation, and learning qualified them for it. To bar one's gates
and earn one's own living without reliance on the emolument of office, to display
a lack of regard for the social status which could be attained only by entering
officialdom, and to devote one's life to self-cultivation, scholarship or artistic pursuits
made one a recluse." [Swartz 79]</blockquote>

* I was not the first to write about reclusion. I had significant influence though: I transformed stock images and normal vocabulary into highly personalized poetry. I alluded to the "here and now" about my particular circumstance rather then generic gentleman reclusion. This made my poems very autobiographical, but not in the normal objective sense. This made quite the impact, for future poems and fu's began to have short prefaces before them, also explaining the author's circumstance around the composition. I also introduced many new topics in my poetry, such as: begging, moving, encountering a fire, and harvesting dry rice. [Chang/Owens 222]
*I was also the first to introduce calendar dates in my extremely long poem titles, something which has become a common practice. (Chang, Owens 221)

* ''The Peach Blossom Spring''
http://chinese.hm68.com/index.php/chinese-classics/153-peach-blossom-spring

Four biographies from later authors covered me in great detail:
#History of the Liu Song (Song shu)
#History of the Southern Dynasties (Nan shi)
#History of the Jin (Jin shu)
#Biography of Tao Yuanming

They provided accounts for my life and character, and were never questioned as principal guide to reading my works.
Written in the late fifth to early seventh centuries, they have been accepted as fact and treated as primary sources. However, when studied against my own works, they do not stand up to the critical analysis, and often contradict one another (Swartz 79).

Principally, authors choose how to present my life, and what characteristics they want to idealize. 
An example in the ''Records of the Grand Historian'': The author would narrate one or two key scenes from the subject. Like a half body portrait; the image is not complete but the personality is very vivid (Nienhauser 192). 
While all four have very similar content, the process of adding and deleting material shows a very different picture (Swartz 78).
 For example, in the Book of Song, Shen Yue uses stories where I am seen drinking, but still trying to show genuineness and candor. From them on these qualities would be adapted as part of my image (Nienhauser 194).

I was portrayed as a lofty recluse, very loyal to the Jin dynasty (simply not true), and one who drinks a lot and enjoys simple poetry. While not entirely false, I was a lot more than that!

Many annotated works from authoritative scholars already exist, and they served as the foundation for most criticism and interpretation. People pay a lot of attention to the allusions, names, and analysis of the syntax in the annotations, but forget about the textual and manuscript variants – we taken them as records (Swartz 79).

However it is these variants that matter. They compete with each other, one trying to beat the other. Is there a legitimate, single, definite version of the text?

* My poems have very many different versions that have been edited to server a particular aesthetic and ideological purpose.
Sadly we do not have the original manuscripts authored by me, so we have to take every version into account (Nienhauser 193). There are many historical, ideological, and cultural contexts in the text. This makes me much more complicated and engaging than previously thought (Nienhauser 194).

== Translations of Poetry ==

<table border="1">
<tr>
<th>Steady Rain, Drinking Alone 
(Translation 1993, David Hinton) 
 
Life soon returns to nothing. The ancients 
all said it circles away like this. And if 
 
Sung and Ch'iao ever lived in this world 
without dying, where are they now? Still, 
 
my old neighbor swears his wine makes you 
immortal, so I try a little. Soon, those 
 
hundred feelings grow distant. Another cup, 
and suddenly I've forgotten heaven. O, 
 
how could heaven be anywhere but here? 
Stay true to the actual, yielding to all things, 
 
and in a moment, unearthly cloud-cranes 
carrying immortals beyond all eight horizons 
 
return. Since I first embraced solitude, 
I've struggled through forty years. And yet, 
 
in this body long since lost to change, 
my thoughts remain, quite silent after all. </th>
<th>Drinking Alone during Incessant Rain 
(a translation from Xiaofei Tian's text, 2005) 

The cycle of life will revert to its end; 
people from all times have said so. 
Red Pine and Prince Qiao existed in the world, 
and yet what do we hear about them now? 
An old fellow gave me this gift of wine – 
he actually said drinking makes an immortal out of a man. 
I take my first cup: a hundred cares fade away; 
the second cup is down: all of a sudden I forget Heaven. 
How can Heaven be far away from here? 
so long as one follows natural impulses, 
and takes that as the priority. 
The crane (or swan) of cloud with marvelous 
wings 
can reach the eight limits of the earth 
and return in an instant. 
Ever since I harbored this solitude, 
struggling hard, it has been forty years. 
My form and body were transformed long ago,/ 
(My form and body follow the transformation,)/ 
(My form and spirit were dead long ago,) 
but the mind is still here/(it is in my mind) 
and what more is there to say? </th> 
</tr>
</table>

 

*Both are translations of the same poem, but with changes of key words or ideas, they seem to be two different themes on the same idea. While neither author (presumably) is trying to put words into my pen, it seems that authors take liberty with what I may have meant or will freely interpret what he or she thought I was trying to say, but to attempt to "say it better." In the Tian text, she equates the hero worship Su Shi felt toward Tao Yuanming as one who is a bit fanatical in their devotion to, say, a pop star like a Michael Jackson or something. I (Jenny, not Tao Yuanming) could say that I understand M.J. better than anyone else on the planet. I could interpret his lyrics and even change a word because that superstar is not alive today to tell me that I am either wrong or right. Sure, the copyright laws could have a say in that, but I understand him better than anyone and that is the basis of my authority to change words to fit my perception of that artist.

A key line from an "unclassified poem", actually the fifth in a series of twenty poems entitled "On Drinking.": 
"I built my cottage in the human world, 
yet there is no noise of horse and carriage. 
How then did you manage to achieve this? 
When the heart is far away, the locale naturally 
becomes remote. 
Picking chrysanthemum flowers by the eastern hedge, 
I gaze at South Mountain in the distance. 
The mountain air is lovely at dusk, 
and birds fly back with one another. 
In this return there is a fundamental truth, 
I am going to explain it, but already forgot the words." 
[Tian, 23]

There are many different readings to the italicized sentence, and Su Shi was confident that he had interpreted the true meaning when he said "''see''" was more spontaneous than "''gaze''". This is because of the importance of "possessing" in Song culture. People were very anxious about the authenticity of texts and about receiving the genuine edition. There is speculation that it is this controversy over the exact meaning of my work which actually made my poetry so important, because the argument still continues.

== References ==

1. Hinton, David (translator). ''The Selected Poems of T'ao Ch'ien'', Copper Canyon Press, 1993, print

2. Kang-i Sun Chang, Stephen Owen, eds., The Cambridge History of Chinese Literature 2 volume set (Hardcover), 1704 pages, Cambridge University Press; 1st ed. March 31, 2010.

3. Lau, Joseph S.M., Minford, John, eds., ''Classical Chinese Literature An Anthology of Translations Volume I: From Antiquity to the Tang Dynasty'', Columbia University Press, New York, The Chinese University Press, Hong Kong, 2000, Print.

4.Nienhauser, Jr., William H. "Reviewed Work(s): Tao Yuanming and Manuscript Culture: The Record of a Dusty Table by Xiaofei Tian." Chinese Literature: Essays, Articles, Reviews 28 (2006): 191-95. JSTOR. Web. 4 Feb. 2012.

5. Swartz, Wendy. "Rewriting a Recluse: The Early Biographers' Construction of Tao Yuanming." Chinese Literature: Essays, Articles, Reviews (CLEAR) 26 (2004): 77-97. JSTOR. Web. 1 Feb. 2012.

6. Tian, Xiaofei, ''Tao Yuanming & Manuscript Culture: The Record of a Dusty Table'', University of Washington Press, 2005, print

== Classroom presentations ==
*[[Media:Tao_Qian.pptx]] Powerpoint by Arnold Q
*[[Media:Tao_Yuanming_by_Jenny_R.pptx]] Powerpoint by Jenny R

Tao Yuanming

2013-03-01T21:10:22Z

Ignatius J Reilly: /* Translations of Poetry */

== Life ==
[[File:330px-'Tao Yuanming', ink on paper scroll by Min Zhen, 18th century china.jpg|thumb|Tao Yuanming, by Min Zhen,from 18th century China.]]
* I was born in 365(CE) at Chaisang in Jiangxi province to a formerly prominent southern noble family. My great-grandfather, Tao Kan, had been a Jin Commander, but our station in society had declined by the time of my birth.

* I served many civil and military posts, but none of high position or with any distinction.

* During this period of service in a series of minor posts, my poems begin to indicate that I was becoming torn between ambition and a desire to retreat into solitude.

* One source states I was the first Chinese poet to grapple with the justification of my decision to withdraw from office. [Nienhauser, 193]

* Last position was of county magistrate -- a post I held for only 80 days -- at Pengze, which was not far from my hometown. [Watson, 493]

* In 405 my sister died. This, in addition to my disgust at the corruption and infighting of the Jin Court, lead me to resign. I had become convinced that life was too short to compromise my principles. I have a personal inclination towards a private life of leisure and spontaneity.

* The last 22 years of my life I lived as a farmer with my family (I had 5 sons) near Mount Lu, the famous "southern mountain." [Watson, 493]

* ''"For the family and appointment details some kind of official source may be presumed, but for the character anecdotes it seems to me probable that T'ao's own writings were in most cases the prime source. Before they were gathered into the histories, they had acquired a greater or less degree of exaggeration and had been sometimes set for the sake of verisimilitude in particular but doubtful contexts. If this view is correct, to use the anecdotal material of the biographies to provide a context for particular poems of T'ao is clearly a risky proceeding."'' -- A.R. Davis [Tian, 57]

--[[User:Jenny R|Jenny R]] 01:35, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

== Poetry ==

First, what is reclusion?
Here is a great quote from Fredrick Mote:

<blockquote>"in Chinese society... [terms designating recluses] signified withdrawal from the active
public life in the service of society that Confucian ethics prescribed as the most suitable
course for all whose abilities, cultivation, and learning qualified them for it. To bar one's gates
and earn one's own living without reliance on the emolument of office, to display
a lack of regard for the social status which could be attained only by entering
officialdom, and to devote one's life to self-cultivation, scholarship or artistic pursuits
made one a recluse." [Swartz 79]</blockquote>

* I was not the first to write about reclusion. I had significant influence though: I transformed stock images and normal vocabulary into highly personalized poetry. I alluded to the "here and now" about my particular circumstance rather then generic gentleman reclusion. This made my poems very autobiographical, but not in the normal objective sense. This made quite the impact, for future poems and fu's began to have short prefaces before them, also explaining the author's circumstance around the composition. I also introduced many new topics in my poetry, such as: begging, moving, encountering a fire, and harvesting dry rice. [Chang/Owens 222]
*I was also the first to introduce calendar dates in my extremely long poem titles, something which has become a common practice. (Chang, Owens 221)

* ''The Peach Blossom Spring''
http://chinese.hm68.com/index.php/chinese-classics/153-peach-blossom-spring

Four biographies from later authors covered me in great detail:
#History of the Liu Song (Song shu)
#History of the Southern Dynasties (Nan shi)
#History of the Jin (Jin shu)
#Biography of Tao Yuanming

They provided accounts for my life and character, and were never questioned as principal guide to reading my works.
Written in the late fifth to early seventh centuries, they have been accepted as fact and treated as primary sources. However, when studied against my own works, they do not stand up to the critical analysis, and often contradict one another (Swartz 79).

Principally, authors choose how to present my life, and what characteristics they want to idealize. 
An example in the ''Records of the Grand Historian'': The author would narrate one or two key scenes from the subject. Like a half body portrait; the image is not complete but the personality is very vivid (Nienhauser 192). 
While all four have very similar content, the process of adding and deleting material shows a very different picture (Swartz 78).
 For example, in the Book of Song, Shen Yue uses stories where I am seen drinking, but still trying to show genuineness and candor. From them on these qualities would be adapted as part of my image (Nienhauser 194).

I was portrayed as a lofty recluse, very loyal to the Jin dynasty (simply not true), and one who drinks a lot and enjoys simple poetry. While not entirely false, I was a lot more than that!

Many annotated works from authoritative scholars already exist, and they served as the foundation for most criticism and interpretation. People pay a lot of attention to the allusions, names, and analysis of the syntax in the annotations, but forget about the textual and manuscript variants – we taken them as records (Swartz 79).

However it is these variants that matter. They compete with each other, one trying to beat the other. Is there a legitimate, single, definite version of the text?

* My poems have very many different versions that have been edited to server a particular aesthetic and ideological purpose.
Sadly we do not have the original manuscripts authored by me, so we have to take every version into account (Nienhauser 193). There are many historical, ideological, and cultural contexts in the text. This makes me much more complicated and engaging than previously thought (Nienhauser 194).

== Translations of Poetry ==

<table border="1">
<tr>
<th>Steady Rain, Drinking Alone 
(Translation 1993, David Hinton) 
 
Life soon returns to nothing. The ancients 
all said it circles away like this. And if 
 
Sung and Ch'iao ever lived in this world 
without dying, where are they now? Still, 
 
my old neighbor swears his wine makes you 
immortal, so I try a little. Soon, those 
 
hundred feelings grow distant. Another cup, 
and suddenly I've forgotten heaven. O, 
 
how could heaven be anywhere but here? 
Stay true to the actual, yielding to all things, 
 
and in a moment, unearthly cloud-cranes 
carrying immortals beyond all eight horizons 
 
return. Since I first embraced solitude, 
I've struggled through forty years. And yet, 
 
in this body long since lost to change, 
my thoughts remain, quite silent after all. </th>
<th>Drinking Alone during Incessant Rain 
(a translation from Xiaofei Tian's text, 2005) 

The cycle of life will revert to its end; 
people from all times have said so. 
Red Pine and Prince Qiao existed in the world, 
and yet what do we hear about them now? 
An old fellow gave me this gift of wine – 
he actually said drinking makes an immortal out of a man. 
I take my first cup: a hundred cares fade away; 
the second cup is down: all of a sudden I forget Heaven. 
How can Heaven be far away from here? 
so long as one follows natural impulses, 
and takes that as the priority. 
The crane (or swan) of cloud with marvelous 
wings 
can reach the eight limits of the earth 
and return in an instant. 
Ever since I harbored this solitude, 
struggling hard, it has been forty years. 
My form and body were transformed long ago,/ 
(My form and body follow the transformation,)/ 
(My form and spirit were dead long ago,) 
but the mind is still here/(it is in my mind) 
and what more is there to say? </th> 
</tr>
</table>

 

*Both are translations of the same poem, but with changes of key words or ideas, they seem to be two different themes on the same idea. While neither author (presumably) is trying to put words into my pen, it seems that authors take liberty with what I may have meant or will freely interpret what he or she thought I was trying to say, but to attempt to "say it better." In the Tian text, she equates the hero worship Su Shi felt toward Tao Yuanming as one who is a bit fanatical in their devotion to, say, a pop star like a Michael Jackson or something. I (Jenny, not Tao Yuanming) could say that I understand M.J. better than anyone else on the planet. I could interpret his lyrics and even change a word because that superstar is not alive today to tell me that I am either wrong or right. Sure, the copyright laws could have a say in that, but I understand him better than anyone and

A key line from an "unclassified poem", actually the fifth in a series of twenty poems entitled "On Drinking.": 
"I built my cottage in the human world, 
yet there is no noise of horse and carriage. 
How then did you manage to achieve this? 
When the heart is far away, the locale naturally 
becomes remote. 
Picking chrysanthemum flowers by the eastern hedge, 
I gaze at South Mountain in the distance. 
The mountain air is lovely at dusk, 
and birds fly back with one another. 
In this return there is a fundamental truth, 
I am going to explain it, but already forgot the words." 
[Tian, 23]

There are many different readings to the italicized sentence, and Su Shi was confident that he had interpreted the true meaning when he said "''see''" was more spontaneous than "''gaze''". This is because of the importance of "possessing" in Song culture. People were very anxious about the authenticity of texts and about receiving the genuine edition. There is speculation that it is this controversy over the exact meaning of my work which actually made my poetry so important, because the argument still continues.

== References ==

1. Hinton, David (translator). ''The Selected Poems of T'ao Ch'ien'', Copper Canyon Press, 1993, print

2. Kang-i Sun Chang, Stephen Owen, eds., The Cambridge History of Chinese Literature 2 volume set (Hardcover), 1704 pages, Cambridge University Press; 1st ed. March 31, 2010.

3. Lau, Joseph S.M., Minford, John, eds., ''Classical Chinese Literature An Anthology of Translations Volume I: From Antiquity to the Tang Dynasty'', Columbia University Press, New York, The Chinese University Press, Hong Kong, 2000, Print.

4.Nienhauser, Jr., William H. "Reviewed Work(s): Tao Yuanming and Manuscript Culture: The Record of a Dusty Table by Xiaofei Tian." Chinese Literature: Essays, Articles, Reviews 28 (2006): 191-95. JSTOR. Web. 4 Feb. 2012.

5. Swartz, Wendy. "Rewriting a Recluse: The Early Biographers' Construction of Tao Yuanming." Chinese Literature: Essays, Articles, Reviews (CLEAR) 26 (2004): 77-97. JSTOR. Web. 1 Feb. 2012.

6. Tian, Xiaofei, ''Tao Yuanming & Manuscript Culture: The Record of a Dusty Table'', University of Washington Press, 2005, print

== Classroom presentations ==
*[[Media:Tao_Qian.pptx]] Powerpoint by Arnold Q
*[[Media:Tao_Yuanming_by_Jenny_R.pptx]] Powerpoint by Jenny R

Talk:Tao Yuanming

2013-03-01T21:00:11Z

Ignatius J Reilly: /* New comments in 2013 */

=New comments in 2013=
Jenny! I liked the order in which you provided your information. It was a good and logical outline. I would be more interested in reading more about his life in narrative form. I feel that it might satsify the first person narrative direction we have been asked to do a bit more. Also I noticed that you only signed your name after the biography, I could be wrong but I was under the impression we needed to sign our name after each section we added to or narrated. But don't take my word for it. Also some more images might be a good idea. [[User:Samantha S|Samantha S]] ([[User talk:Samantha S|talk]]) 23:31, 28 February 2013 (CET)

Dear Jenny, please correct your link to your powerpoint presentation (it does not work yet) and still work on the article. Now it is still a little bit too descriptive and too short. The final version should be 7 pages without the earlier contributor's part. The two long poems are good, but do not count as part of the paper. Please do not only describe things, but also switch to the commentator role (maybe indicated by "Contemporary Commentator" and then evaluate and discuss the topic from different angles, put it into context, criticize etc.). If you want to write less, you can integrate more pictures. Please make sure to indicate your source after each sentence or, if there is a whole paragraph with the same source, after each paragraph. You can indicate it like "Smith 2009:345" and in the final section "References" write the long version "Smith, Jared, Confucius revisted, Yale University Press 2009, 415 pp." In the edit mode, section headers are indicated with "=" and sub section headers with "==". In the edit mode, paragraphs need to be marked with 2 line feeds ("Enter" key). 1 Line feed will not show up as a paragraph. For additional editing tips, including how to indicate sources and how to find copyright free pictures, please refer to [http://wiki.vm.rub.de/uvu/index.php/uvu:Community_Portal]. Good luck with your composition! Best, [[User:Root|Root]] ([[User talk:Root|talk]]) 13:50, 25 February 2013 (CET)

Jenny, It is a pretty good page with lots of information. I think that if you gave a biography that consisted of more than just bullet points that would be more interesting to read. More pictures would also be pretty great to look at while reading. Tao Yuanming was super cool and you do a good job of showing that. [[User:A Nonny Mouse|A Nonny Mouse]] ([[User talk:A Nonny Mouse|talk]]) 00:41, 28 February 2013 (CET)

Jenny, to add your powerpoint, you need to click on the red link and upload it there, like what you do with pictures. I think that you could expand a lot of your paragraphs and points to give greater understanding. --[[User:TaraDFroisland|MerchantThief]] ([[User talk:TaraDFroisland|talk]]) 07:14, 28 February 2013 (CET)

Should use more pictures and make the page a bit more visually appealing. Otherwise, this is awesome. [[User:Ignatius J Reilly|Ignatius J Reilly]] ([[User talk:Ignatius J Reilly|talk]]) 22:00, 1 March 2013 (CET)

=Old comments=
I really like this page ummm maybe use some paraenthetical citations though im not sure if we are required to use them.
Alchemist 1330

===Comment 2===
Perhaps separate the presentation from your references? Because I don't think, the powerpoint is a reference... I'm not sure though. --[[User:Meh|Meh]] 07:08, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Talk:Confucius

2013-03-01T20:56:42Z

Ignatius J Reilly: /* New comments in Spring 2013 */

=New comments in Spring 2013=
Tara! incredibly long and thorough article. I can tell where you put most of your information because it deals with literature more directly than the historical content. I think the flow between the two aspects is pretty good. I do feel like there are a few too many pictures where some may not be needed. They seem a bit redundant and unnecessary. But the pictures are fun to look at...so if you wanted to still include them maybe create an external link with more photos with explanations of what they are or just include the link to the photo as a side comment or something. [[User:Samantha S|Samantha S]] ([[User talk:Samantha S|talk]]) 03:24, 1 March 2013 (CET)

Dear Tara and Loren, you write this article together. Please contact each other and work well together. Loren is more concentrating on the historical part and Tara more on the literary aspect of Confucius. [[User:Root|Root]] ([[User talk:Root|talk]]) 19:55, 26 February 2013 (CET)

*Dear Loren, this is a good start, but still too short. The final version should be 7 pages. If you want to write less, you can integrate more pictures. Please make sure to indicate your source after each sentence or, if there is a whole paragraph with the same source, after each paragraph. You can indicate it like "Smith 2009:345" and in the final section "References" write the long version "Smith, Jared, Confucius revisted, Yale University Press 2009, 415 pp." In the edit mode, section headers are indicated with "=" and sub section headers with "==". In the edit mode, paragraphs need to be marked with 2 line feeds ("Enter" key). 1 Line feed will not show up as a paragraph. For additional editing tips, including how to indicate sources and how to find copyright free pictures, please refer to [http://wiki.vm.rub.de/uvu/index.php/uvu:Community_Portal]. Good luck with your composition! Best, [[User:Root|Root]] ([[User talk:Root|talk]]) 13:16, 25 February 2013 (CET)
*Please look at the spelling error in your file name "Cunfucius.ppt". Also, the file is not complete, since it was larger than allowed. I will split it into 2 files and upload it again, as well as get rid of the side "Kong Fuzi". Please integrate your findings in the existing article. I am looking forward your midterm paper. Thank you! [[User:Root|Root]] ([[User talk:Root|talk]]) 22:00, 19 February 2013 (CET)
*Please work also on the travels of Confucius and talk about the possibility that they were made up by Mencius and why.
*Please look again through the powerpoint presentation for consistency of referring to Confucius as "I" and not as "He".
You can also explain on the slide with the names, from when on these names were used. And you can indicate (in the mid-term paper), that the use of "Kongzi" in a text helps us to date it, because dating is crucial for seeing what might be authentic and what was made up later, especially during the Han times, when they started a Confucius cult.
*Please also explain (at least in the paper) the different versions of the Analects and distinguish between the historical person Zhong Ni and the later made up sage "Kong Fuzi".
*These are just a few ideas I had when I looked at your revised presentation.
*There are also some pictures, who are not visible in my version of your ppt. It looks like you embedded them with Quicktime, but not everybody has it. So you may want to send me the pictures one by one and I can help you to input them in the presentation again the normal way (in Powerpoint using "Insert" "Graphic").[[User:Root|Root]] ([[User talk:Root|talk]]) 22:13, 19 February 2013 (CET)

I like that you have as many sources as you do, it makes the article more credible. I would do some more proof reading to make sure the wording is more coherent.[[User:Oprah wind fury|Oprah wind fury]] ([[User talk:Oprah wind fury|talk]]) 15:09, 27 February 2013 (MST)

It would be good to proofread the paragraphs; there are a few grammatical errors that appear in the article. Maybe not accurate, but I remember hearing the concept of "Wen" when I've heard others discuss Confucius, which was literary studies and the moral value of such an idea; it might be a good thing to research and add to the page. [[User:Cappuccino|Cappuccino]] ([[User talk:Cappuccino|talk]]) 08:01, 26 February 2013 (CET)

I think having a conclusion paragraph would be beneficial.--[[User:TaraDFroisland|MerchantThief]] ([[User talk:TaraDFroisland|talk]]) 02:46, 28 February 2013 (CET)

It looks pretty good. I like all the pictures you put in there. [[User:Ratu|Ratu]] ([[User talk:Ratu|talk]]) 8:36, 28 February 2013 (CET)

This was quite lengthy and very informative. My favorite part was when you mentioned about filial piety, and the golden rule, etc. I like hearing confucian philosophy. He was a smart guy. Dr who (talk) 28 February 2013 (CET)

Loren- I think considering there is so much about Confucius that is uncertain that you've done a good job! [[User:Leo1299|Leo1299]] ([[User talk:Leo1299|talk]]) 03:14, 1 March 2013 (CET)

Tara - This looks amazing! Great information and nice use of pictures. [[User:Ignatius J Reilly|Ignatius J Reilly]] ([[User talk:Ignatius J Reilly|talk]]) 21:56, 1 March 2013 (CET)

=old comments=
Hey, it's a start...[[User:Licia K|Licia K]] 05:13, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Dear Licia, please paste your reading in turn notes here and upload your ppt. Please make sure to include the sources, also of images. See the section on images in our [http://wiki.vm.rub.de/uvu/index.php/uvu:Community_Portal#How_to_upload_and_integrate_media_like_pictures.2C_powerpoint_presentations_etc. instructions]. Thanks! [[User:Root|Root]] 00:00, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

== I only did the presentation in the Classical Literature class. Since this article is also listed in the Traditional History class, (where the teacher did the presentation, but did not post any notes) I didn't upload the literature ppt. (I posted this in the History class section also, because, you can't have China history without Confucius! Someone had to post some sort of article about him, so I volunteered).[[User:Licia K|Licia K]] 03:33, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Great pic! I think it could use a reference or two. [[User:Jimmerica]] 11:13, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Use the thumbnail adjustment on that picture. [[User:Alchemist1330]]

===Comment 4===
I though when the topic is a person it must be in first person? If not please ignore this. Also, the pictures kind of cut through your text. --[[User:Meh|Meh]] 06:40, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

== Didn't you notice? It says, at the start, that he is never supposed to have spoken of himself in first person. That is why, even though he is "speaking of himself" it is written in third person. That is also why it says, at the end, that he should maybe start to speak of himself in first person.[[User:Dekeo|Dekeo]] 20:32, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

== Writing a paper in first person is very difficult and makes for a hard to read page. I would much prefer to read a third person narrative on a persons life. This is good though and gives a lot of information on Confucious' life and teachings.[[User:Anonymous5|Anonymous5]] ([[User talk:Anonymous5|talk]]) 21:13, 27 February 2013 (CET) ==

Talk:Qu Yuan

2013-03-01T20:53:01Z

Ignatius J Reilly: /* New comments in 2013 */

=New comments in 2013=
This being my own article and because I have such a discrete username (haha) I will comment on the comments already made to my page by my fellow students. Thank you for the feed back and the further instruction on how to properly format the page. I agree with the comments made about adding more to the intro and also about the suicide. I have continued to look for further information on Qu Yuan's suicide but have not found more than what I have written about. Also pictures are comming :) I have had a hard time figuring out how to get them on the page. Thanks for all the suggestions! [[User:Samantha S|Samantha S]] ([[User talk:Samantha S|talk]]) 03:01, 1 March 2013 (CET)

Dear Samantha, please start by uploading your powerpoint presentation and then extend your article. Now it is still too short. The final version should be 7 pages. You need to stick to the 1st person narrative ("I", "me" etc.) and not only describe things, but also switch to the commentator role (maybe indicated by "Contemporary Commentator" and then evaluate and discuss the topic from different angles, put it into context, criticize etc.). If you want to write less, you can integrate more pictures. Please make sure to indicate your source after each sentence or, if there is a whole paragraph with the same source, after each paragraph. You can indicate it like "Smith 2009:345" and in the final section "References" write the long version "Smith, Jared, Confucius revisted, Yale University Press 2009, 415 pp." In the edit mode, section headers are indicated with "=" and sub section headers with "==". In the edit mode, paragraphs need to be marked with 2 line feeds ("Enter" key). 1 Line feed will not show up as a paragraph. For additional editing tips, including how to indicate sources and how to find copyright free pictures, please refer to [http://wiki.vm.rub.de/uvu/index.php/uvu:Community_Portal]. Good luck with your composition! Best, [[User:Root|Root]] ([[User talk:Root|talk]]) 13:43, 25 February 2013 (CET)

Dear Samantha, The article reads quite good. Maybe you still have a little bit of time to add more pictures and write some more comments, placing Qu Yuan in context.

I have corrected the following things:

No colomn behind headers.

Headers are made with equal signs "=" in front and at the end of a header, not with " ' ' ' ".

Please do not forget to sign your contents entry on the main page "with [[User:Root|Root]] ([[User talk:Root|talk]]) 21:37, 27 February 2013 (CET)".

If you want to have a line feed in Wiki, please type 2 line feeds. I corrected that and it makes the article look longer now again.
Your image was not correctly inserted. You also did not correctly cite the photographer "ocean yamaha". I have downloaded the image from Flickr, uploaded it to Wiki, copied the way an image should look like from another article and then updated all the information, including the file name. Now it shows up correctly. This is an image of a dragon boat. Do you also have images of Qu Yuan or his works?

I have also inserted your powerpoint presentation.

I am happy to do all of this for you, but I am confident that you would also be able to do it by following our step-by-step introduction [[http://wiki.vm.rub.de/uvu/index.php/uvu:Community_Portal]] or by copying the things you need from other articles you are able to do it by yourself too. Maybe you can try that for further images, if you want to add more.[[User:Root|Root]] ([[User talk:Root|talk]]) 21:37, 27 February 2013 (CET)

Reads well with a lot of good information. You might want to combine the parts about his suicide with the end of his biography. Having a small section dedicated to a short explanation of his death feels a little clunky when it could just be combined with his biography. Also think about some pictures you could add that could really give us more information about such an interesting man. [[User:A Nonny Mouse|A Nonny Mouse]] ([[User talk:A Nonny Mouse|talk]]) 00:30, 28 February 2013 (CET)

Such interesting things! I think that some pictures could really add to this article, as well as some more information about the suicide, if that is available. You could also possibly expand the Intro section because it seems a little strange being so short. --[[User:TaraDFroisland|MerchantThief]] ([[User talk:TaraDFroisland|talk]]) 00:52, 28 February 2013 (CET)

Samantha, I really enjoyed this reading of Qu Yuan. I thought the pictures used were great and gave life to the page. I also thought they way you laid out the sections with a commentary clearly marked right afterwards was great. I wish we had a bit more details of the Suicide. I felt hanging after reading that section like there should be more. If this was not an option because of lack of historic detail about Qu Yuan, then overall great job.--[[User:Joshua B.|Joshua B.]] ([[User talk:Joshua B.|talk]]) 19:27, 1 March 2013 (CET)

I am in agreement with some of the other statements in that your piece feels like it could be longer. [[User:Ignatius J Reilly|Ignatius J Reilly]] ([[User talk:Ignatius J Reilly|talk]]) 21:53, 1 March 2013 (CET)

Talk:The 5 Canonized Classics

2013-03-01T20:50:27Z

Ignatius J Reilly: /* New comments in 2013 */

=New comments in 2013=
Kami! I liked the page but I found that it became redundant with all of the bullet points. I don't really know how to use this site very well but if there are other options of different sized bullet points for your sub points I would suggest using them so they are not all the same. Also I would suggest putting in some narrative to bring it to life a bit more. It might be hard because you are not doing an article on a particular person, but I think it would be beneficial to the reader and anyone who would come acorss the page. Also the narrative would add a variety of different ways you are presenting the information and make it less redundant. [[User:Samantha S|Samantha S]] ([[User talk:Samantha S|talk]]) 23:14, 28 February 2013 (CET)

Dear Kami, please start by uploading your powerpoint presentation and then revise the existing article. Now it is still too short. The final version should be 7 pages. You need not only to describe things, but also switch to the commentator role (maybe indicated by "Contemporary Commentator" and then evaluate and discuss the topic from different angles, put it into context, criticize etc.). If you want to write less, you can integrate more pictures. Please make sure to indicate your source after each sentence or, if there is a whole paragraph with the same source, after each paragraph. You can indicate it like "Smith 2009:345" and in the final section "References" write the long version "Smith, Jared, Confucius revisted, Yale University Press 2009, 415 pp." In the edit mode, section headers are indicated with "=" and sub section headers with "==". In the edit mode, paragraphs need to be marked with 2 line feeds ("Enter" key). 1 Line feed will not show up as a paragraph. For additional editing tips, including how to indicate sources and how to find copyright free pictures, please refer to [http://wiki.vm.rub.de/uvu/index.php/uvu:Community_Portal]. Good luck with your composition! Best, [[User:Root|Root]] ([[User talk:Root|talk]]) 13:42, 25 February 2013 (CET)

Kami, It looks pretty great and has a lot of information, but I would suggest that instead of displaying all of your information in bullet points maybe you should write a more in depth section with more detail and information in more of an informational essay kind of way. Everything else seems pretty good and I like it. [[User:A Nonny Mouse|A Nonny Mouse]] ([[User talk:A Nonny Mouse|talk]])

Kami, You have a lot of great stuff going on in this article. I would suggest adding more pictures and expanding some of the information as A Nonny Mouse suggested. You also have a broken link where a picture should be I think. If you need help fixing it, let me know and I can help a bit. (You can ask me in class tomorrow if you want.) You could also expand the section on how Confucius relates to the classics as I know that the professor really placed emphasis on that point. --[[User:TaraDFroisland|MerchantThief]] ([[User talk:TaraDFroisland|talk]]) 00:58, 28 February 2013 (CET) (Tara)

Kami, I really enjoyed the wiki page. A lot of great details and information. My only suggestion would be if possible a few more visual aides. My mind is weird and I learn, remember, and retain things better with visuals. Otherwise, Great Job! --[[User:Joshua B.|Joshua B.]] ([[User talk:Joshua B.|talk]]) 19:21, 1 March 2013 (CET)

Kami, Looks pretty good. I just wonder about the addition of the long poems and if it really counts toward your 7 pages. (I was told on my page that the poetry didn't really count as part of my wiki/project because the words were not my own?) [[User:Ignatius J Reilly|Ignatius J Reilly]] ([[User talk:Ignatius J Reilly|talk]]) 21:50, 1 March 2013 (CET)

=Old comments=
Dear Arnold, that looks really good to me. Please still indicate the sources. You can look at the other articles for how to do it. Best, [[User:Root|Root]] 05:07, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

This looks very good I would try to find at least one picture to add though I realize that may be hard to.
Alchemist1330

==Comment 2==
No one adds pictures anymore???? There may exist some pictures of the stuff in calligraphy... --[[User:Meh|Meh]] 06:44, 19 April 2012 (UTC)