Interview by Wan Shuyuan 2022

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Links to other interviews as background information: 2021_Interview_with_Duan_Yuanyuan, Longer_interview_version_dated_March_3_2021, Interview_Univerlag_2022.

Aim: Give guidance for the field, make some provocative but true statements. Reflect current discussions both in China and internationally. Refer to Web literature work by Chen Dingjia (CASS) and to "Intellectual History" by Chen Zhongyi.

汉学家吴漠汀：我为何翻译中国现当代文学?

近年来,随着中国作家屡在国际获奖，越来越多中国现当代作家的作品开始受到世界关注。德国汉学家吴漠汀翻译了鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国作家的众多作品。

中新社记者拟以“我为何翻译中国现当代文学?”为题，采访德国汉学家吴漠汀教授。

采访问题如下：

1. 你不仅翻译了《红楼梦》德文版本，还先后翻译了鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱钟书、王蒙、张洁、刘再复、贾平凹、余秋雨、韩少功、许泽晨、张伟、韩寒、绵绵等一大批中国近现代作家的作品。你为何钟情于中国近现代文学？

The main reason is, that from the perspective of world literature, Chinese literature is underrepresented in the world. Regarding the quality, the Qing Red Chamber Dreams in guanhua and Lu Xun's "The True Story of Ah Q" in early baihua were among the globally best pieces of literature of their time. In general, we can say that many works of Chinese literature of the 1920s was of a world leading high quality, also because the Chinese writers were in close exchange with the national literatures of the world.

Since 1930, when the League of Left Wing Writers was founded, Chinese authors changed from writing high quality literature for literature's sake to writing literature for political purpose, they voluntarily gave up quality and international compatibility. However, even under this environment, some excellent authors emerged like the ones I translated. So we still have a few works of excellent Chinese literature today. These works are worth to be translated and to made known to the world.

This is the more the case, since we have many more e.g. English, French, Spanish and German literature translated into Chinese than the other way round. One of the reasons why not much Chinese literature is translated into foreign languages is that China as a country ranks among the countries with the lowest popularity all around the world. A major reason for that is her corruption and autocratic system. If China can reform and open up more, also its culture will naturally become more popular all around the world.

Another reason why modern Chinese literature appeals to me is the local characteristics embedded in these works. For example, Mr. Jia Pingwa's works contain a large number of dialects, local traditions unique to his hometown, etc. His works are wonderful, but the amount of his works translated is much lower than the quality of his works deserves, because these parts are difficult to be translated into foreign languages. I think these distinctive cultures are also worth spreading, and I would be happy to translate such Chinese vernacular stories and bring them to the world.

Top Chinese literature of modern and contemporary times is extremely rich. Lu Xun has shaped the new vernacular. His whole life he was torn between the need he saw for political reform and his doubts, if literature can be effective in this respect. Among all international great writers, Lu Xun was the one who even stood above the Nobel Prize of Literature, when he declined to be listed as candidate for it. With Ah Q, Kong Yiji, The Madman's Diary, he wrote the internationally most advanced and modern literature of his time. Until today it is a desideratum to publish his Complete Works in English. I translated for example his essays on the book burning in Germany.

I also translated Yu Qiuyu's History of Calligraphy, which gives foreigners an in-depth inside into this important art and its role and position in Chinese cultural history, considering it the basis of all arts and as important as music, painting and literature.

Wang Meng has not only won the hearts of Chinese readers with his nostalgic revolution love story "Long live the Youth", but has also contributed a lot to the experimental development of the stream-of-consciousness style in literature. I have translated his short story "Hard Porridge" and his autobiographical book "China - Deciphered".

I very much enjoyed to translate Han Shaogong's works "Verblassender Mond über dem verlassenen Innenhof" (空院残月), which shows a dense atmosphere of 1930s China under Japanese occupation, and "Der Zorn des Buddha" (怒目金刚), which shows the stubborness of a rule breaker and also contains some supernatural elements.

Because of the life experience I share with Xu Zechen as student at Peking University, and therefore I felt very much at home when translating his "Ah Peking!".

Zhang Wei delivers both, on the one hand very intense descriptions of the struggle of men in nature and local sceneries with "Baummoos pflücken", "Meerwind", "Auf ins Maisfeld", "Fuchs und Wein", "Herbstzorn" und "Weintrauben im Herbstregen" and on the other hand the world of cadres between good intentions and the temptations of bribery with "Rette bitte den Künstler".

Although Han Han is better known as race driver and film regisseur, e.g. for the blockbuster "Four Seas", he is a successful and skilfull writer too, so I have translated his works "Three Gates", "Glorious Days", and "His Land". Compared to Guo Jingming, who is more celebrity than author, Han Han produces high quality literature, especially with his road novel "1988: I want to talk with the world", translated by Howard Goldblatt.

I also chose to translate Mian Mian's novel "Panda Sex" because I wanted to check, if it was really "rubbish literature" as it was once claimed by a critic. I visited her in Shanghai and discovered that her works are so authentic, because he mostly described her own life experience. The novel Panda Sex was composed with an experimental writing style: Only at the end of the novel, the reader understands that the recurring quotes in the novel are actual recordings, which Mian Mian took from philosophical talks at various parties in Shanghai.

In general, to support cultural attractiveness, the so-called "soft power" with "hard power" means, e.g. financial support, can backfire. The United States was long seen as a country where poor or criminal European immigrated to. It was a country of slavery and its racism was severe even until the 1970s. Since then, the United States have reformed and earned the trust of many other countries in the world. So without investing into soft power, it naturally became a soft superpower. People all over the world eat the unhealthy American fast food, simply because the United States has an attractiveness and people feel to be part of the "land of the free" or the "American dream" when they eat the food.

As I understand it, in 2000, the Chinese National People's Congress initially proposed a "go global" strategy. The Chinese government supports the export of Chinese culture financially especially since 2007. It also supports the translation of Chinese literature and propaganda books into foreign languages. In the beginning, the policy was not applied properly. The most funding was offered for propaganda books, and not from the perspective which works of literature and which fact books can be successful abroad. This practise has become better now. However, the sales figures of Chinese books abroad are still lowered because the partnering Chinese publishing houses make the final edit of the translations and have the final say how to design the covers. They often change the colors, take away the illustrations and eye-catching cover texts.

In this way, while many Chinese literary works have great potential for worldwide success, restrictions on how books look or are presented abroad sometimes undermine that potential. China still has a way to go in enhancing its own cultural appeal, and I hope that my translations will add to the effort to bring Chinese culture to the world.

主要是因为，从世界文学的角度来看，中国文学一直保持着良好的水平。即使是在20世纪30年代往后中国政局和文坛动荡的艰难时刻，中国仍然出现了这样一些优秀的文学作品，所以我认为这些作品值得翻译，也值得向世界宣传。 目前在世界范围内，其他语言，诸如英语，法语，西班牙语和德语作品翻译成中文的情况居多，而中文作品翻译成其他语言的情况较少，中文作品在世界上受欢迎程度不够高。在我看来，出现这种现象主要与中国的历史地位、中西方的文化差异、国际局势以及中国政府的管控制度有一定关系。

中国近代文学吸引我的另一个原因在于这些作品中蕴含的地方特色。比如贾平凹先生的作品中就包含有大量的方言，他家乡特有的地方传统等等元素，他的作品非常精彩，但是他的作品的被翻译量却远低于作品质量应得的水平，就是因为这些部分很难被翻译成外语。我认为这些特色文化也值得传播，我也乐意将这样的中国乡土故事翻译出来，带给世界。

中国近现代顶级文学极为丰富。比如鲁迅的文章，鲁迅是近代以来白话写作的鼻祖。他的一生都因两件事而犹豫挣扎：他自知中国需要政治改革，却不知道文学能否在这方面发挥作用。在国际上所有伟大作家之中，鲁迅在拒绝被列为诺贝尔文学奖的候选人时，他的高度甚至超越了诺贝尔文学奖的地位。以《阿Q》、《孔乙己》、《狂人日记》为代表，他创作了当时国际上最先进的现代文学作品。直到今天，出版英文版的鲁迅全集仍是迫在眉睫的事。例如，我本人就翻译了在德国比较热门的部分鲁迅的文章。

我还翻译了余秋雨的《书法史》，这本书让外国人能够深入了解了书法这门重要的艺术及其在中国文化史上的地位和作用，让人能意识到书法是一切艺术的基础，与音乐、绘画、文学同等重要。

王蒙不仅以其怀旧的革命爱情小说《青春万岁》赢得了中国读者的心，而且为意识流文体在文学中的实验性发展做出了巨大贡献。我翻译过他的短篇小说《坚硬的稀粥》和他的自传#China - Deciphered#.

我非常喜欢翻译韩少功的作品《空院残月》，这本书显示出20世纪30年代以来中国深受日本影响的那种氛围。同时还有他的《怒目金刚》，这本书里展示出一位规则破坏者的固执，也包含一些超自然的元素。

我和徐则臣曾同在北大有过学习经历，所以在翻译他的《北上》时，我感到翻译得十分自在流畅。

张炜的书中阐述了两种情况，一种是用一些如"Baummoos pflücken", "Meerwind", "Auf ins Maisfeld", "Fuchs und Wein", "Herbstzorn" 以及"Weintrauben im Herbstregen" 这样的描写，情感强烈地描述了人类在自然和当地风景中的斗争，另一种则是用“Rette bitte den Künstler”这样的描述，写出了干部的世界在善意和贿赂的诱惑之间的挣扎。

虽然韩寒更出名的是赛车手和电影导演（比如他拍过电影大片《四海》），但他也是一个成功，技巧娴熟的作家，我翻译了他的作品《三门》、《光辉岁月》和《他的土地》。不同于郭敬明，与其说郭敬明是作家，不如说他是社会名人，韩寒的文学作品质量很高，尤其是他的公路小说《1988:我想和世界说话》（由霍华德·戈德布拉特翻译）。

而我之所以选择翻译棉棉的小说《熊猫》，也是因为我想确认一下，它是否真的如一位评论家所说的那样是“垃圾文学”。于是我在上海拜访了她，一番了解后发现，她的作品是如此的真实，因为书中主要描述的是她自己的生活经历。小说《熊猫》使用的一种实验性的写作风格：直到小说结尾，读者才会发现小说中反复出现的引用其实是真实的录音，是棉棉在上海各种聚会上录下来的哲学谈话。

总的来说，在我看来，中国文学作品要更好地走向世界，应该努力提升自己的文化吸引力，在“软实力”以及“硬实力”方面下功夫。但我猜测提供财政支持以提升软实力，可能会适得其反。

据我了解，2000 年，中国人大就初步提出“走出去”战略。自2007年起，中国政府在财政上开始支持中国文化向外输出。中国政府还支持本国将中国文学类和外宣类书籍翻译成外文。起初，这项政策没能合理施行。大部分资金用于翻译外宣类书籍，而非用于翻译本可在国外市场成功流通的文学作品以及纪实作品。虽然目前这项政策的施行效果有所好转，中国图书在海外的销量仍然未达到最理想效果。这其中的一个重要原因是因为合作的中国出版社拥有翻译的最终编辑权，以及封面设计的最终决定权。中国出版社有时候会更改书籍封面的颜色，插图和吸睛的腰封文字。这样一来，尽管许多中国文学作品有在世界范围内获得成功的巨大潜力，但对书籍的外观或在国外呈现的方式进行限制，有时会破坏这种潜力。中国在提升自身文化吸引力上，还有一段路要走，我也希望我的翻译能够为中国文化走向世界添一份力。

2. 中国近现代文学的魅力何在？翻译近现代文学如何加深了你对中国的了解？

Modern and contemporary literature is one of the best ways to understand a country and a culture. Authors have the ability to drag readers into their thoughts, to let them participate in their line of thoughts and let them look at China through Chinese eyes.

In modern Chinese literature one can see the sparks of ancient literature colliding with foreign literature. Lu Xun, for example, is not only a famous Chinese writer, thinker and revolutionary; in the process of translating Lu Xun's works, take Call to the Arms (Nahan) as an example, this work truly depicts the social life from the Xinhai Revolution to the May Fourth period, revealing the deep-seated contradictions, profoundly analyzing and attacking the old Chinese system and stereotypes, which provides readers with a new perspective to This provides readers with a new perspective to better understand the culture and characteristics of modern China. On the other hand, with the passage of time, new generations of authors have emerged in the literary world, such as the "post-80s" literature, describing the authors born after 1980. Especially after 2000, the "post-80s" writing, mainly youth literature, has achieved a brilliant success in the literary market.

Han Han is one of the more famous post-80s literary writers. In translating Han Han's "Triple Door", I learned that Han Han is full of wisdom, he uses his own unique narrative to express his understanding of the world, and when he finds himself in tension with the world, he is able to give a clever way to solve it. Han Han uses a humoristic critical surrealism to describe phenomena of contemporary Chinese society. Difficult for the translator is, that Han Han often uses traditional proverbs and then interpretes them not by their allegoric, but by their true meaning and creates a twist in the story line. Since the proverbs have different meanings in the target culture, it takes a long time to find solutions for these frequent turning points in Han Han's stories.

The works of Han Han and Lu Xun both reflect to a certain extent their different understanding of the times, and they have their own different views on different times, and when they reflect their thoughts on the times in their books, this in itself is a way to show their charm. The views of the authors of different eras have the characteristics of the people of different eras, and in understanding their thoughts and works is also the way one can understand China step by step.

中国近现代文学是理解中国及其中国文化本身最好的方式。作家能够让读者明白他们的想法，并且让读者们参与到他们的想法中来，让他们以中国的视野来观看中国。中国近现代文学中能够看到古代文学与外国文学碰撞产生的火花。比如鲁迅，他不仅是中国著名的文学家、思想家、革命家；在对鲁迅的作品进行翻译的过程中，拿《呐喊》为例，这部作品真实描绘了从辛亥革命到五四时期的社会生活，揭示了种种深层次的矛盾，对中国旧有制度以及陈腐的传统观念进行了深刻的剖析与抨击，这给读者提供了一个新的角度来更好的了解中国近现代的文化与时代特点。另一方面，随着时间的流逝，一些新兴文学登上了文学界，比如“80后”文学。“80后”写作是新世纪之初中国最重要的文化现象。2000年以后，以青春文学为主体的“80后”写作在文学市场取得了辉煌的胜利。而韩寒则是“80后”文学写作中较有名气的一位。在对韩寒《三重门》进行翻译时，我了解到韩寒充满了智慧，他用自己独特的叙述方式将他对世界的理解表达出来，另外，当他发现自己与世界的紧张关系时，他能够给予一种巧妙的方法进行解决。韩寒与鲁迅的作品都在一定程度上能够反应他们对于时代不同的理解，对于不同的时代，他们有着自己不同的看法，而当他们将自己对时代的思考在书中体现出来时，这本身就是一种魅力展现的方式。不同时代作者的看法都具备了不同时代人的特性，在了解他们思想以及作品的时候也就是读者一步一步了解中国的办法。

3. 很多文学作品在跨文化的翻译过程中，会让作品失去原本的魅力。那么，你在翻译中国近现代文学作品时，是如何克服翻译瓶颈的？和翻译中国古典文学有何不同之处？

It is not true, that works of literature lose their original attraction when translated into a different language. That is a prejudice. Almost all literature we read today is translated literature. If you do not translate, you only have national literatures read by local people. If you want to win the nobel prize of literature, you need to be translated at least into English, and best also into Swedish.

Every original has its specific attraction. It can be low or high. If it may be of high attraction to foreign readers - which is not always the same as to be attractive to local readers - then it is worth to be translated. When you translate, you can either make it more attractive or less attractive. This depends on a lot of factors. One is, that you need to understand and appreciate the original fully. Many Chinese readers also cannot understand and appreciate a work fully. So the ideal translator is a foreigner, who has lived in China for several years. There are almost only native speakers of the target language, who produce successful translations in the literary field. The same is true for foreign literature: If it wants to be successful in the Chinese literary market, it needs to be translated by a Chinese translator. An even more ideal translator would be an author by her or himself. So the best poetry translation is done by poets who translated into their own language.

In the education process of translators, they are told that they should master the foreign language as well as their own language. But this is not possible except for people who grew up truly bilingual. Therefore, one should translate into one's own language in order to achieve the best success.

我认为这是一种偏见，实际上文学作品在跨文化的翻译过程中，并不会失去其原本的魅力。今天我们阅读的文学作品几乎全部都是文学译作。如果我们不把文学作品翻译成其他文字，那么我们国家的文学作品只会拥有本土读者；如果我们想要让作品走出去，最好获取诺贝尔文学奖，那就至少得把文学作品翻译成英文，当然最好还要译成瑞典语。

每一部文学作品都拥有或多或少的独特魅力。倘若一部文学作品在外国读者看来是极具魅力的，而本国读者却意见相左，我们把它译成外国文字则是一件很有意义的事情。但是我们在翻译文学作品的时候切忌改变其原本的魅力，既不能增加一分，也不能减少一分。要做到这一点需要考虑许多因素，一个就是我们必须对该文学作品有充分的理解和鉴赏。倘若本土读者对某些国内作品也无法充分地理解和鉴赏，那么翻译该作品的最佳译者可以是那些旅居该国多年的外国译者。通常成功的文学作品翻译大多是由译作语言为母语的译者来完成的，外国文学作品的翻译也同样如此。如果一部外国文学作品想要在中国文学市场取得成功，有必要请一位中国译者来翻译该作品。如果这位译者本人还是一位作者，那是最理想的情况了。这就不难理解为什么最好的诗歌翻译都是由那些译语为母语的诗人完成的。

在译者学习翻译的过程中，往往要求他们必须熟练掌握一门外语，其熟练程度等同于其母语。这一点除了那些从小在双语环境里成长的并列双语者可能实现，对于其他的人几乎是不切实际的。因此，译者往往是将外国作品翻译成自己的母语时才能取得更大的成就。

4. 过去很长一段时期，西方对中国古典文学研究较多，而对现当代文学的翻译和研究较少。曾有外国翻译家直言：“中国当代文学在西方的处境如同沙漠。”这一现象背后的原因是什么？

Of course the world is a desert, when it comes to Chinese literature. And this is unfair, because there are actually works of literature with a high quality in China.

In Germany, non-German literature accounts for 12,5% of literature, but Chinese literature only for 0,3% of literature. However, before I engaged in translation, we had 11 Chinese literary books per year being translated into German. With my engagement, this figure has roughly doubled. How did I achieve this? I gathered a group of young sinologists in Germany, who all joined into a translators workshop. In this workshop, we now translate about 10 books from Chinese into German, most of it works of literature. With this output, we have doubled the number of books translated from Chinese into German since more than a decade now.

The reason behind the desert phenomenon is, that Chinese literature is only as popular as the country is seen by the international community. The worldwide market for Russian literature broke down since end of February 2022, and at the same time the worldwide market for Ukrainian literature has skyrocketed. Since there was no change in quality, we can see from that that there are foreign perceptions and the image of a country, which plays into it. The easiest way for Chinese literature to become celebrated around the world would be to become a country, which is even more clean and even more free than today.

的确，中国文学作品在西方的处境就如同是一片沙漠。但这样的评价对于中国文学作品而言却是很不公平的，因为中国确是拥有许多高质量的文学作品的。

在德国的文学作品总量中，非德国文学作品占比12.5%，中国文学占比却只有0.3%。在我从事翻译工作之前，每年有11本中国文学作品被译成德语。我加入翻译队伍以后，这个数字差不多翻了一番。我是怎么做到这一点的呢？我在德国召集了一些年轻的汉学家加入到一个翻译工作室，一起从事翻译工作。我们目前已经完成了10本中文作品的德语翻译，其中大部分是文学作品。因为我们的努力使中国书籍德译数量同十年前比翻了一番。

造成文学“沙漠化现象”的原因则是：文学作品的受欢迎程度与该国在世界的受欢迎程度相关。从2022年2月底开始，俄罗斯文学的全球市场已经崩溃，而与此同时我们发现乌克兰文学的全球市场却迅猛增长。我们可以看到两国文学作品的质量并没有发生任何变化，是外国对于两国的看法以及国家自身的形象左右了其文学作品的受欢迎度。让中国文学作品誉满全球的最简单的办法就是中国政府进一步加强环境保护和人权保障工作。

So I set myself a goal: to translate more Chinese literature into my native language, German. In Germany I gathered some young sinologists to join a translation workshop. Every year we translate a dozen Chinese books into German, most of them literary works, thus doubling the number of German translations of Chinese books compared to ten years ago.

The reason for the "desertification" of literature is that the popularity of a literary work is related to the popularity of the country in the world. I believe that the easiest way to make Chinese literature globally popular is for China to continue to promote energy conservation and environmental protection, and to advance the rule of law and human rights.

Secondly, ideological differences between China and foreign countries will inevitably make the acceptance of contemporary Chinese literature abroad difficult or cognitively biased. I would like to point out that no matter which country's literary works, if they encounter overly ideological and overly political interpretations, interpretations and translations, their literary and poetic values are likely to be greatly reduced or even completely obscured.

Cultural mentality and acceptance factor: The contrast between the status of cultural importing and exporting countries affects the willingness of the target culture to import and thus the effectiveness of cultural export. The unevenness of cultural acceptance inevitably leads to the unevenness of cultural acceptance context and readers' acceptance mentality, and the cultural "arrogance" and "prejudice" will affect the choice of translated works and translation strategies, and further affect the dissemination of works. Therefore, if Chinese literary works need to go out, first of all, those who participate in this exchange must fully and accurately know their own culture, and also fully understand the culture of the receiving country.

Factors of the translated paratext: The paratext, i.e., the interpreted text, is an important construction of the text, and the preface of the translation is an important part of the paratext. Through the introduction, the translator introduces the creator of the work, evaluates his work, guides the reader to understand the artistic characteristics of the work, and interprets the work. Chinese publishers often cut out my forewords, putting Chinese literature in a difficult position of acceptance.

Insufficient research on readers of foreign contemporary literature can affect readers' perception and acceptance.

因此我给自己定了一个目标：将更多的中国文学作品翻译成我的母语——德语。我在德国召集了一些年轻的汉学家加入到一个翻译工作室，一起从事翻译工作。我们目前已经完成了10本中文作品的德语翻译，其中大部分是文学作品。因为我们的努力使中国书籍德译数量同十年前比翻了一番。

造成文学“沙漠化现象”的原因则是：文学作品的受欢迎程度与该国在世界的受欢迎程度相关。从2022年2月底开始，俄罗斯文学的全球市场已经崩溃，而与此同时我们发现乌克兰文学的全球市场却迅猛增长。我们可以看到两国文学作品的质量并没有发生任何变化，是外国对于两国的看法以及国家自身的形象左右了其文学作品的受欢迎度。让中国文学作品誉满全球的最简单的办法就是中国政府进一步加强环境保护和人权保障工作。

其次因为各个国家的意识形态不同，难免会使中国当代文学在国外出现接受难或者认知偏差的情况。我想指出的是无论是哪国的文学作品，如果遭遇过度意识形态化、过度政治化的解读、阐释与译介，其