20201116 trans

Cao Runxin 曹润鑫

WOESLER, Martin

Prof. Dr. Martin Woesler (University Rome III/Witten University)

The Waves of the Stone –

Early Reception Between Instrumentalization and Exoticization

Abstract

The fame of the Dream of the Red Chamber spread quickly not across Asia, but also to Europe and the USA. This paper introduces the roles and motifs of different actors in the early distribution, like merchants, Western embassies, Chinese teachers of Western missionaries, missionaries themselves, translators, early Sinologists as well as literary critics. I introduce judgements on the novel before it was available in translation.

马丁·沃斯勒

教授 Martin Woesler博士（罗马第三大学/维滕大学）

摘要

一“石”激起千层浪—西方早期以工具化和边缘化为核心的中国文学接受

“红楼梦”不仅风靡亚洲，而且还名扬欧美。 本文介绍了早期版本中不同人物的角色和主题，例如商人，西方使馆，西方传教士的中文老师，传教士本身，译者，早期汉学家和文学评论家。 在介绍这本小说的翻译版本之前，我先介绍一下它的判断。--Cao Runxin (talk) 13:05, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Chang Huiyue 常慧月

As motifs I identify exoticization (joy of otherness of fashion and dressing, customs), universalization (world literature), the instrumentalization of the novel as evidence for own hypotheses on literature (Davis’ poetry), the instrumentalization for language learning etc. I show a change of motifs over time from exoticization and instrumentalization for proving inferiority to Western novels to accepting the novel as part of world literature and a masterpiece of Chinese culture with a special value in documenting Chinese society. Of special interest are misunderstandings (Gützlaff) and deviations from the original (Kuhn, Minford).

对于主题，我确定了异国情调（时尚和穿着习惯别样风情的乐趣）、普遍化（世界文学）、小说的工具化（作为文学假设的证据）（戴维斯的诗歌）、语言学习的工具化等。我呈现了主题随时间而产生的变化，从使用异国情调和工具化证明了西方小说的劣势，到接纳小说为世界文学和中国文化的杰作，对记录中国社会具有特殊价值。特别令人感兴趣的是误解（古茨拉夫）和与原著的偏离（库恩，明福德）。--Chang Huiyue (talk) 10:12, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Chen Han 陈涵

Key words

Dream of the Red Chamber, Western translation, Western dissemination, Western reception, instrumentalization, exotization, deviation

First (unproven) experiences of young Cao Xueqin with foreign literature

In 1947 the graduate student Huang Long from then Jinling University quoted the following passage from the book Dragon's Imperial Kingdom, which he claimed to have borrowed from the Central Library (today’s Nanking Library), in which William Winston ‘remembers’ an encounter of his grandfather Philip Winston with Cao Xueqin:

关键词

《红楼梦》；西方翻译；西方传播；西方接受；工具化；异国化；偏差

青年曹雪芹外国文学初探（未证实）

1947年，金陵大学的研究生黄龙在国立中央图书馆（今南京图书馆）借阅了《龙之帝国》一书，并引用了该书中的一段资料，此书写道威廉·温斯顿“记得”祖父菲利普·温斯顿曾与曹雪芹会面：--Chen Han (talk) 12:22, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Chen Hui 陈惠

"The imperial kingdom was symbolized by a five-clawed golden dragon, a legendary reptile nonexistent since Creation. Of her indigenous produces shantung commanded the broadest popularity. This rendered her to merit the credit ‚Land of Silk’ in the Orient. There has been cherished as our precious heirloom a piece of home-spun fabric with an ornamental pattern of "dragon and phoenix" manufactured at Kiangning Textile Mill. It survived fires and swords. During my grandfather Philip's sojourn in China for trade in textiles, he contracted an acquaintance with Mr. Tsao Fu, the then Superintendent of Kiangning Textile Mill, and at the latter's request served as an initiator of textile technology.

Chen Jiangning 陈江宁

The host was hospitality incarnate and oftentimes indited extempore verses in token of rapport. As a reply, my grandfather delivered Biblical sermons and gave a graphic narration of Shakespeare's dramas. For audience he had merely those other than the juvenile and feminine. On the score of eavesdropping, Tsao’s pampered son suffered a lashing and castigation".[ Philip Winston: Dragon's Imperial Kingdom, Douglas 1874, p. 53. Quoted from: 吴新雷, 黄进德《曹雪芹江南家世考》，福建人民出版社, 1983, 304 pp., here pp. 103-104. See also:馬幼垣（Yau-Woon Ma）《實事與構想: 中國小說史論釋》，聯經出版事業股份有限公司, 2007年，384页。See also: 周汝昌《曹雪芹新传》外文出版社(1992)²1997, 353pp., here p. 101.] 主人是热情好客的化身，并且经常当场创作诗歌以示融洽。作为回应，我的祖父也会分享圣经讲道，并对莎士比亚戏剧作了图形叙述。他的观众往往只有青少年和女性。曹雪芹那骄纵的儿子由于偷听，遭到了曹先生的鞭打和斥责。[菲利普·温斯顿：《龙的帝国》，道格拉斯 1874,53页。引自Wu Xinlei, HuangJinde "Cao Xueqin Jiangnan Family History", Fujian People's publishing House,1983,304页,103-104页。 还引自：Yau-Woon Ma ""Facts and Ideas: Historical Commentary on Chinese Fiction", Lianjing Publishing Co.,LTD,2007, P384. 还引自：Zhou Ruchang "A New Biography of Cao Xueqin" Foreign language Press(1992)²1997, 353页。101页。--Chen Jiangning (talk) 08:02, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Chen Jiaxin 陈佳欣

If this encounter has been made up, it shows how much effort Redology invested to come to new findings, if not, it may explain some of the special characteristics of the novel never seen in Chinese literature before.

Status of the book before its publication

Between 1754 and 1771 we have one new manuscript version per year in average and almost each manuscript carries new comments mostly from 脂砚斋 or from 畸笏叟. The author died on Feb 1, 1764, which did not end the commenting on the manuscripts.

Chen Jingjing 陈静静

The book was not officially published, but that did not prevented it from dissemination, as manuscript fragments were handed around since the 1750s and the novel was known to many scholars before its publication in 1791.

The preface to the 2nd edition in 1792 also points to the fact, that there had been a “long” tradition of scholarly research of the book and comments. These comments had not been taken over for the 1st and 2nd edition.

这本书并没有正式出版，但这却并未影响其传播，因为自18世纪50年代以来部分手稿已经流传开来，且这本小说在1791年出版前就已经为许多学者所熟知。 1792年第二版的序言中也指出，该书和评论的学术研究历史悠久。这些评论还未被第一版和第二版所采用。--Chen Jingjing (talk) 06:34, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Chen Jingjing

该书没有被正式出版，但这并不影响它广泛流传开来，因为自1750年起该书的部分手稿就已经为人们津津乐道，并且小说在1791年出版之前就已经为众多学者熟知。 1792年第二版的前言部分也指出了这一事实，学者对于该书的研究和评价早已经历了很长一段时间。这些评价还未被第一版以及第二版所采用。--Fancy (talk) 07:22, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

这本书没有正式出版，但这并不影响其传播，因为部分手稿自18世纪50年代就已经流传开来，并且这部小说早在1791年出版之前就已经为许多学者所熟知。 1792年第二版的序也指出，对该书及其评论的学术研究有着悠久的传统。这些评论在第一版和第二版中还未被采纳。--Chen Sha (talk) 10:13, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Chen Sha 陈莎

From inofficial manuscript versions to the printed book

One of the reasons why the book was not printed was that it was (wrongly) considered either sexually explicite literature (淫书) or against Confucianism, which could only passed on in manuscript versions.

Gao E claims in his preface of 1791, that he had heared before 1771 from this novel and that he checked whether it was against Confucianism, but could not find anything like this in it, so that it could be published.

“从非官方手抄本到印刷版” 这本书未被印刷出版，原因之一是人们要么误认为它是淫书要么误认为它反对儒家思想,所以它只能以手抄本的形式通行。 高鹗在其1791年所做的序中说，他在1771年之前就已经听说过这部小说了，并且对这部小说是否反对儒家思想进行了审查，但没有发现诸如此类的东西，所以《红楼梦》就出版了。--Chen Sha (talk) 10:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

从非官方手抄本到印刷版

本书未能出版的原因之一是当时的人将其误认为是淫书或反孔书籍，因此只能以手抄本的形式流传。高鹗1791年在书的序言部分写道自己1771年前就对这部小说略有耳闻，还检查了书中是否有反孔言论，结果却没发现此类言论。因此，本书得以出版。--Chen Sunfu (talk) 10:51, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Chen Sunfu 谌孙福

“One of the best works of fiction in Chinese literature was supposed to have been written by a member of this sect, and was suppressed by the Emperor because of offensive references to the reigning family contained in it. It was called the ‘Hung Lou Meng,’ or ‘Dream of the Red Chamber,’ and it resembles a large number of fairy tales threaded together rather than a modern novel. By an ingenious substitution of false characters, words, occasionally throughout certain portions of the work—something like incorrect spelling —the imperial interdict was evaded, and it has continued in print and popularity down to the present day. Foreign students of Chinese commonly read a portion of it, the smooth and excellent style making it an invaluable text-book.”[ See: He Tianyue 何天爵: The real Chinese question (真正的中国问题), New York: Dodd，Mead & Co. 1900, 386 pp., here p. 109.]

“中国文学界有这样一部优秀小说，这部小说应出自此派作家之手，却因书中一些针对统治者的冒犯言辞遭到了皇帝的反对和打压。这部书就是《红楼梦》（Hung Lou Meng/Dream of the Red Chamber)此书更像是由大量神话故事拼凑而成，而非一部现代小说。通过巧妙替换书中的虚拟人物、错别字以及有时通篇出现的拼写错误，此书躲过了皇家控诉，得以继续出版，其知名度绵延至今。学习汉语的外国学生常阅读书中的一小段，其流畅的行文和绝佳的风格使其成为了一部颇具价值的教科书。”[见：何天爵：真正的中国问题,纽约:Dodd,Mead & Co.1900, 386pp.,here p. 109]--Chen Sunfu (talk) 09:35, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Chen Yongxiang 陈永相

Preparations of the 1st book edition

Gao E worked with Cheng Weiyuan, who ran the publishing house Suzhou Cuiwen Press (苏州萃文书屋).

According to the preface to the 1791 edition by Cheng Weiyuan, different 80 chapter manuscript versions were already circulating, some were sold for a high price at the Temple Market, others were copied by readers. Since the 80 chapter manuscript versions already contained content lists with 120 chapter headlines, he searched for and found (as he pretended) the 120 chapters.

程甲本的准备工作

高鹗与苏州萃文书屋的程伟元合作

根据程伟元1791年版的序言所知，早有80多种不同版本的手稿流传在世，有些在庙会高价出售，有些则被读者抄袭相传。 由于80章回手稿版本包含有120章回标题的内容，因此他搜寻到了（假称）120个章回的版本。 --Chen Yongxiang (talk) 13:30, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Cheng Yusi 成于思

In the preface to the first printed edition he already refers to an existing number of readers, who share the love of the book with him. Also his description that some readers took over the effort to copy the book by handwriting shows that an early fan culture existed even before the printed version appeared.

Also, Cheng Weiyuan keeps the question of the authorship open, but points directly to Cao Xueqin, who claimed to have worked 10 years on the novel and rewritten it five times. The rewriting may refer to the production of new manuscript versions reflecting the ideas of the commentators.

在首印本的序言中，程伟元已经提到了现存的读者群，他们与之分享了对此书的喜爱之情。 此外，程伟元还描述到读者竭尽所能手抄《红楼梦》的现象，这表明在印刷本发行之前就有了粉丝文化的存在。

另外，程伟元公开表明了对此书作者身份的质疑，不过，他也直接指明了曹雪芹，其称在这本小说上耗费十载光阴，反复写作五次。复写本可能指的是新版手抄本的发行，书中反映了评论者的观点。--Cheng Yusi (talk) 15:57, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Deng Jinxia 邓锦霞

1st Book edition 1791: 程甲本 Cheng A edition

According to the preface to the 2nd edition 1792, these early fans were called collectors and the 1st edition was produced with movable characters, which was faster than the woodblock print. The book contained 99 illustrations and more than 100 copies were printed. The first edition might have been printed in Peking at the end of 1791, the 2nd in early 1792 in Suzhou, leaving 72 days between the two editions, which may show that the Peking edition was sold out immediately. The 1791 edition was also soon translated into Mongolian: 蒙古王府本 Menggu ben.

1791年第一版: 程甲本

根据1792年第二版的序言，这些早期的粉丝被称为收藏家。第一版采用可移动的字符制作，这比木刻版画要快。 该书包含99幅插图，被印刷了一百多本。 第一版可能于1791年底在北京印刷，第二版于1792年初在苏州印刷。两版之间相隔72天，这或许表明北京印刷版立即被抢购一空。 1791年版也很快被译成蒙古文：蒙古王府本。--Deng Jinxia (talk) 05:18, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

1791年第一版: 程甲本

根据1792年第二版的序言，这些早期的粉丝被称为收藏家。第一版采用活字印刷制作，这比木刻印刷要快。 该书包含99幅插图，印刷了一百多本。 第一版可能于1791年底在北京印刷，第二版于1792年初在苏州印刷。两版之间相隔72天，这或许表明北京的这一版一经印刷立即被抢购一空。 1791年版也很快被译成蒙古文：蒙古王府本。--Xu Pengfei (talk) 05:32, 13 November 2020 (UTC)Xu Pengfei

Ding Daifeng 丁代凤

2nd Book edition in 1792: 程乙本 Cheng B edition

A second edition, with ‘corrections’ some consider mistakes today, was published in 1792 in Suzhou and sold well too. The 2nd edition claims to have removed many mistakes of the 1st edition.[ For an overview of the comparison of the two editions please refer to: 《《红楼梦》程乙本版本研究综述》，王丽敏，河南教育学院学报 (哲学社会科学版) Vol．33.] One of the differences is that the 程乙本 Cheng B edition changed expressions in ancient wenyan to more contemporary ones, like “索” was turned into “要”, “趁” into “赶”, “题” into “写”, “端” into “头”, “闻得” into “听见”, “记挂” into “惦记”, “殊不知” into “那里知道” etc., but not in every case. Altogether they changed roughly 20,000 characters.

1792年第二版：程乙本

第二版于1792年在苏州出版，也取得了很好的销量。在第二版当中，做出了一些修正，尽管这些修正在如今被认为是错误的。第二版声称修正了第一版中的诸多错误。[关于两个版本比较的概述，请参阅：《《红楼梦》程乙本版本研究综述》，王丽敏，河南教育学院学报 (哲学社会科学版) Vol．33.]不同点之一是程乙本将一些古文言文表达转化为了更为现代的表达，比如将“索”改成了“要”，“趁”改成了“赶”，“题”改成了“写”，“端”改成了“头”，“闻得”改成了“听见”，“记挂”改成了“惦记”，“殊不知”改成了“那里知道”等,但它并没有对所有的表达进行修改。修改字数总计约达20000。--Ding Daifeng (talk) 06:40, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

1792年第二版：程乙本

第二版于1792年在苏州出版，也取得了很好的销量。在第二版中，做了一些修正，尽管这些修正在今天看来有些错误。第二版修正了第一版中的诸多错误。[关于两个版本比较的概述，请参阅：《《红楼梦》程乙版研究综述》，王丽敏，河南教育学院学报 (哲学社会科学版) Vol．33].其中一点不同是程乙本将一些文言文表达转换成了更加现代的形式，如将“索”改成了“要”，“趁”改成了“赶”，“题”改成了“写”，“端”改成了“头”，“闻得”改成了“听见”，“记挂”改成了“惦记”，“殊不知”改成了“那里知道”等。但并不是所有的文言文均被修改，修改字数共计20000字左右。--Cheng Yusi (talk) 15:19, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Fang Jieling 方洁玲

There is also a change of the list of confiscated goods. What might have been the reason in this particular case to change the list of confiscated goods for the Cheng B edition? The list in the Jiaben is a documentation of richness and therefore lets the confiscation seem to be justified because of unjustified enrichment. In the Yiben, the list starts with mostly religious items like, Buddha statues, this lets the confiscation appear unjustified and shifts the sympathies of the reader towards the family. In the late 18th century, there was a turn towards Buddhism.

没收货物的清单也有所变化。 在这种特殊情况下，在程乙本版本中改变没收货物清单的原因可能是什么呢？ 甲本中的清单是丰富性的文件，因此让没收由于不合理的丰富性看起来是合理的。 在乙本中，清单的开头主要是像佛像这样的宗教物品，这使没收显得不合理，并使读者的同情心转向了家庭。 在18世纪末，人们转向了佛教。--Fang Jieling (talk) 14:30, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Gan Fengyu 甘奉玉

Many umlegitimized copies appeared. The book was delivered to Korea and shipped to Japan, where it was read in its original language.

The novel created a wave of interest in China comparable to the one of The Sorrows of the Young Werther in Europe since 1774. The first edition, printed in 1791 in Peking in a small number of copies (estimates range between 4 and 400) was soon sold out.

很多非法盗版书出现，盗版书籍运到韩国后，又转海运到日本，在那里，人们阅读的却又是原文。 小说在中国引起了一波兴趣浪潮，堪比欧洲1774年以来的《少年维特的烦恼》浪潮。1791年，北京 印刷了第一版，数量很少（大约4-400本），很快就一售而空。--Gan Fengyu (talk) 03:25, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Gao Mingzhu 高明珠

Some scholars assume a suicide wave among readers who identified with Lin Daiyu. Many readers discussed whether they identified more with Lin Daiyu or with Xue Baochai, a discussion that lasts until today.

一些学者认为，在那些认同林黛玉的读者中可能会引发自杀风波。很多读者都在更加认同林黛玉还是薛宝钗这一问题上进行过讨论，且这个讨论一直持续到了今天。--Gao Mingzhu (talk) 13:52, 14 November 2020 (UTC)Gao Mingzhu

一些学者则认为，这可能会在那些认同林黛玉的读者中引发一场自杀浪潮。许多读者曾探讨过“更认同林黛玉还是薛宝钗的身份”这一问题，直至今天关于这个问题的讨论仍未停止。--Li Liqin (talk) 14:02, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

一些学者猜想，与林黛玉有感同身受的读者中可能会有自杀风波。也有许多学者会讨论此种现象是存在于林黛云更多还是薛宝钗更多，且该讨论一直持续到了现在。--Han Haiyang (talk) 10:14, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Gong Yumian 龚钰冕

Spreading to Japan and Korea

Captain王开泰 Wang Kaitai delivered 18 copies of a 9-volume edition of the Dream on December 9, 1793 to Japan, as we can prove in a store list of a Nanking ship arriving in长崎港Nagasaki (which started on November 3 in 乍浦 Zhapu): „红楼梦 九部十八套“.[ From 发货账本, quoted from: 《红楼梦 》在日本.] We know of an early mentioning of the Dream by the Korean author Lee, Kyu-Kyung李圭景 ( 1788- ? 李圭景(이규경)) in the 1830s.[ From 《五洲衍文长笺散稿》卷七《小说 辩证说》, quoted from: 《红楼梦》在韩国的流传和翻译.]

There were early (partial) translations of the novel into Manchurian.

传播到日本和韩国 1793年12月9日，王开泰船长向日本交付了18册9卷本的《红楼梦》，我们可以在一艘抵达长崎港（11月3日从乍浦出发）的南京船只上的一份发行账本中证明这一点：“红楼梦九部十八套”。[摘自发行账本，引自《红楼梦》在日本。] 我们了解到，19世纪30年代，韩国作家李圭景（Lee Kyu-Kyung，1788-？）最早提起过《红楼梦》。 [摘自《五洲衍文长笺散稿》卷七《小说辩证说》，引自：《红楼梦》在韩国的流传和翻译。] 这本书有部分翻译成了满语。--Gong Yumian (talk) 15:03, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Gu Dongfang 顾东方

Early Western notions of the book

The novel also caught the attention of Europeans living in China, like the missionaries, who started to translate parts of it into Western languages, as well as the British embassies to China, who collected also Chinese literature, brought it back to Europe or engaged in translation or dissemination.

这部小说也引起了生活在中国的欧洲人的注意，比如传教士，他们开始将小说的部分内容翻译成西文，还有英国驻华使馆，他们也收集了中国的文学作品，带回欧洲或从事翻译、传播。

西方早期对这本书的看法: 这部小说也引起了生活在中国的欧洲人的注意，比如传教士开始把它的一部分翻译成西方语言，还有英国驻华大使馆，他们也收集中国文学，把它带回欧洲或从事翻译或传播。--Hu Baihui (talk) 04:31, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Guan Qinqing 管钦清

The book seems to have run out of stock often and needed to be purchased from other cities, whereever it was available, like in about 1812 in Canton: Robert Morrison, a missionary who worked in Macao, may have been pointed by his Chinese tutor to the novel. In 1816 he published a dialogue between a student (maybe himself) and his Chinese tutor pointing to the time before December 1812, when he translated parts of the novel and therefore had a copy:

这本书似乎经常缺货，需要从其他城市购买。一旦什么地方有货，比如在1812年左右的广州，在澳门工作的传教士罗伯特·莫里森（Robert Morrison）就受他导师指示去购买这本小说。1816年，他公布了一位学生（也许就是他本人）与中国家庭教师之间的对话，指出他在1812年之前对该小说部分情节进行了翻译，因此有了以下内容：--Guan Qinqing (talk) 13:56, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

这本书似乎经常缺货，需要从其他有货的城市购买。比如在1812年左右的广州，在澳门工作的传教士罗伯特·莫里森（Robert Morrison）受他的中国导师指示，购买了这本小说。1816年，罗伯特公布了一位学生（也许就是他本人）与其中国导师之间的对话，对话发生在1812年12月之前，当时他正翻译这本小说的部分内容，因此有小说副本：--Jiang Qiwei (talk) 14:31, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Gui Yizhi 桂一枝

Student: “What is the best book for students to read?” – [...suggestion of Daxue.] Tutor: [...] to read the Hung-low-mung will do very well. – Student: I have not seen the Hung-low-mung, have you seen it? – Tutor: I have not brought it with me, but if you wish to see it, I will write to Canton, and present it to you. Student: “Very good. I will trouble you to write for it.” – Tutor: “I will do so.” – Student: “How many volumes are there in the Hung-low-mung?” – Tutor: “Twenty volumes in all. In this book, the phraseology is entirely that of Peking.”[ From: “Dialogue V”, in: 《中文对话与单句》Dialogues and Detached Sentences in the Chinese Language, with a free and verbal translation in English, collected from various sources, Macao: East India Company Press 1816. [Chinese parts left out in this quotation.]]

Guo Lu 郭露

Between December 1812 and February 1813, Robert Morrison translated parts of chapter 4 and send it to Great Britain. He published entries about the Dream in his dictionary, of which the first volume appeared in 1815[ 《华英字典》A Dictionary of the Chinese language in three parts, Macao: East India Company Press 1815, vol. I 930 pp., the novel title is mentioned in volume I:614.] and more translation excerpts, e.g. from chapters 4 and 39, in his 1816 textbook edition.[ 《中文对话与单句》Dialogues and Detached Sentences in the Chinese Language, with a free and verbal translation in English, collected from various sources, Macao: East India Company Press 1816, e.g. pp. 194-200.]

1812年12月至1813年2月期间，罗伯特·莫里森翻译了部分书中第四章的内容，并将其寄往英国。他将这《梦想》这篇小说编进了字典当中，其中第一卷出现在1815年(《华英字典》，第三版汉语字典,澳门：东印度公司，1815年版，第一卷，930页。这篇小说出现在第一卷614页）同时，1816年的版本当中的第4章和39章还对后续的翻译进行了记录。（《中文对话与单句》，实现对汉语中的对话及独立句子的英文口头翻译，从各处收集而来。澳门：东印度公司，1816年版，194 - 200页。)--Guo Lu (talk) 14:02, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Han Haiyang 韩海洋

Only 23 years of its publication, the novel already was part of the canonized Chinese literature of fiction and Robert Morrison used excerpts of it for his text books to teach Westerners Chinese, as well as expressions from it for his dictionary and sent letters with excerpt translations to Europe, for an intended 2nd vol. of his Horæ Sinicæ which never was realized.

The first British Embassies to China (among them especially Charles Bowra, John Francis Davies) also collected literature and among it the Dream of the Red Chamber.

就在它出版的23年之后，这部小说就被列为中国文学小说行列之中。罗伯特·马礼逊用了其中一些摘选作为教材去教西方人中文；一些表达应用在他的字典里。他把一些摘要翻译版本以信的形式寄去欧洲，打算将其作为第二版本。但他的《中国时光》出版之梦却永远没有实现。

首次英国到中国的使节（其中有包腊，约翰·弗朗西斯·戴维斯）也收集了文学材料，其中包括有《红楼梦》。--Han Haiyang (talk) 10:07, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

仅在它出版23年后，这部小说就被归为中国文学小说之列。罗伯特·马礼逊摘选了其中部分内容用作教授西方人中文的教材；他还摘选了一些表达应用在他的字典里。他把一些摘要的翻译版本以信的形式寄去欧洲，打算将其作为他的《中国时光》的第二卷，但并没有实现。

首批英国到中国的使节（其中有包腊，约翰·弗朗西斯·戴维斯）也收集了文学材料，其中包括有《红楼梦》。--Gao Mingzhu (talk) 12:10, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Gao Mingzhu

Han Wanzhen 韩宛真

Early translation history in the West

In 1819, the first excerpt translations were published in Europe, in English (by John Francis Davis) and in French (by Davis, further translated by Bruguière). Significantly, they were published hidden in other larger works, in the English case, it was a Travel Report by Clarke Abel,[ 约翰．巴罗（John Barrow）：“Art. IV Narrative of a Journey in the Interior of China, and of a Voyage to and from that Country, in the Years 1816 and 1817; containing an Account of the most interesting Transactions of Lord Amherst's Embassy to the Court of Peking, and Observations on the Countries which it visited. By Clarke Abel F.L.S. London 1818”，见：William Gifford（主编）, Quarterly Review 21:41 (1819年1月) 见第67-91页，特见第79-80页。这份期刊于1819年6月4号发行，总发行量13000份。笔者在这里参照了以下的索引并最终确定作者: „Gentleman's Magazine (Mar. 1844), 246-47. The article's author refers to #415 and #438 (including a specific reference), both of which are on the same topic and are by Barrow. Cf. also the discussion of infanticide (p. 76) and Raffles's account of Java reviewed by Barrow in #422. In his QR articles, it was Barrow's signature practice to refer to his own works.“, 参考„Quarterly Review Archive“ http://www.rc.umd.edu/reference/qr/index/41.html。] and in the French case, it was a Chinese drama, La-song-euil.[ “Rêves de la Chambre rouge”, 见：»Avant-propos du traducteur francais«, 见: 安托萬．安德烈．包儒略(Antoine-André Bruguière), Lao-seng-eul [老生兒], Comédie Chinoise, suivie de San-iu-leou, ou Les trois étages consacrés, conte moral ; Traduits du chinois en anglais, par J. F. Davis de la factorerie de Canlon ; et de l'anglais en français, par A. Bruguière de Sorsum; avec additions du traducteur, 巴黎: Rey et Gravier / 伦敦 A. B. Dulau & Co. 1819 年, 227 页, 第141-164页, 见第150-151页。] 西方早期的翻译史 在1819年，欧洲发布了第一个摘要翻译版本，该版本被约翰 弗兰斯 大卫斯翻译为英语版本，后来又被布吉拉进一步翻译为法语。重要的是，它们被隐藏在其他较大的作品中出版，在英语案例中，这是克拉克·亚伯（John Clarke Abel）的《旅行报告》。1816年和1817年的中国内陆之旅和往返该国的旅程的叙述；内容包括对阿默斯特勋爵大使馆向北京法院进行的最有趣的交易以及对所访问国家的观察。克拉克·阿贝尔F.L.S.伦敦1818”，见：威廉·吉​​福德（主编），季评21:41（1819年1月）见第67-91页，特见第79-80页。这份期刊于1819年6月4号发行，总发行量13000份。笔者在这里参照了以下的索引并最终确定作者：“绅士杂志”（1844年3月），第246-47页。本文的作者引用了＃415和＃438（包括一个特定的参考文献），这两个主题都在同一主题上，由Barrow撰写。 cf.还有关于杀婴的讨论（第76页）和巴罗在＃422中对莱佛士关于Java的描述。在他的QR文章中，引用他自己的作品是Barrow的签名做法。”，请参阅“ Quarterly Review Archive”（季度审查档案）http://www.rc.umd.edu/reference/qr/index/41.html。在法国案中，这是一部中国戏曲，即La-song-euil。[“Rêvesde la Chambre rouge”，见：»Avant-propos du traducteur francais«，见：安托万。安德烈。包儒略（安托万·安德烈·布鲁吉埃（Antoine-AndréBruguière），“老生儿”（Lao-seng-eul），《喜剧》（ComédieChinoise），圣尤尼·路易（suivie de San-iu-leou）或《反叛的道德》； Traduits du chinois en englais，par J. F. Davis de la factorerie de Canlon； et de l'anglais enfrançais，par A.Bruguièrede Sorsum； ”，巴黎：Rey et Gravier /伦敦A. B. Dulau＆Co. 1819年，227页，第141-164页，见第150-151页。]--Han Wanzhen (talk) 14:44, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

He Changqi 何长琦

These excerpt translations were done by John Francis Davis, he translated excerpts from chapter 3 and they were published by John Barrow in Great Britain and by Bruguière in France, both in 1819. Further translations were in 1846 by Robert Thom, excerpts of chapter 6, in 1868-69 Edward Charles Bowra chapters 1-8, in 1892-93 Henry Bencraft Joly chapters 1-56, in 1927 Liang-Chih Wang chapters 1-95, in 1929/1958 Wang Chi-chen an abridged full version, in 1958 Florence McHugh & Isabel McHugh a further translation from the abridged German version of 1938 by Franz Kuhn.

Hu Baihui 胡百辉

Regarding these translations, both the translation quality as well as the quality of the English used did not reach the status of world literature. Regarding full translations, we have in the 1960s Bramwell Seaton Bonsall, in 1973-1986 Hawkes/Minford and in 1978-1980 Yang/Yang. Among all the translators who embarked on this endeavour, only Hawkes (1923-2009) and Minford (1946-) achieved the goal to produce a translation which clearly falls into the categorization of world literature, the others, as Gladys Yang stated, “were a poor shadow of the original”.[ Yang 1980 3:621-622.]

就这些翻译而言，无论是翻译质量还是所用英语的质量都没有达到世界文学的水平。关于全译本，20世纪60年代涌现了一些翻译家，比如布拉姆威尔·西顿·邦索尔、1973-1986年霍克斯/明福德和1978-1980年杨。在所有从事这项工作的翻译家中，只有霍克斯（1923-2009）和明福德（1946-）达到了翻译的目的，而这两个译本显然属于世界文学的范畴，而其他的译者，正如格拉迪斯·杨所说，“他们只是原作的一个影子”。--Hu Baihui (talk) 04:26, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

就这些翻译而言，无论是翻译质量还是所用英语的质量都没有达到世界文学的水平。至于全译本，20世纪60年代涌现了一批翻译家，比如布拉姆威尔·西顿·邦索尔、1973-1986年霍克斯/明福德和1978-1980年杨宪益及其夫人。在所有从事这项工作的翻译家中，只有霍克斯（1923-2009）和明福德（1946-）达到了翻译的目的，而这两个译本显然属于世界文学的范畴，而其他的译者，正如格拉迪斯·杨所说，“他们只是原作的一个影子”。--Zeng Xinyuan (talk) 09:41, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

关于这些翻译，翻译质量以及所用英语的质量都没有达到世界文学的水平。 关于完整翻译，我们在1960年代的Bramwell Seaton Bonsall，1973-1986 Hawkes / Minford和1978-1980 Yang / Yang中都有。 在所有从事这一工作的翻译人员中，只有霍克斯（1923-2009）和明福德（1946-）达到了产生翻译的目标，该翻译显然属于世界文学的范畴，而其他人，如Gladys Yang所说，“ 原始的阴影。” [杨1980：3：621-622。]--Han Wanzhen (talk) 14:46, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Hu Huifang 胡慧芳

Early Misunderstandings

Before the novel was available in translation, we find a lot of misunderstandings and negative judgements on the novel: Morrison considered the novel to have been written in “Peking Dialect”, this mistake developed its own tradition.[ Even in 1995, you could read that the Dreams is written in Peking dialect, cf. Shu Changshan, Die Rezeption Thomas Manns in China, 1995, Frankfurt: Lang, 326 pp. At least Tong Yao, Die Vielfältigkeit der Literatur, 2006 mentions both Peking and Nanking dialects.] In 1842 Gützlaff[ “Dreams in the Red Chamber”, Friedrich August Gützlaff (1803-1851), “《紅樓夢》Hung Lau Mung, or Dreams in the Red Chamber; a novel. 20 vols. Noticed by a Correspondent”, in: Chinese Repository, issue 11 (1842) 266-273.] introduced the protagonist as „the lady Páuyu“ (p. 268), even “a very petulant woman” (p. 270) and “busy lady” (p. 272), and took Jia Yucun贾雨村 (instead of Jia Zheng 贾政) as Baoyu’s father.

在小说被翻译出版之前，我们发现了很多关于小说的误解和负面判断。莫里森认为小说是用“北京话”写的，这个错误发展了它自己的传统。[即使在1995年，您也可以阅读 梦是用北京话写的，参见 舒常山，《死神的托马斯·曼斯》，中国，1995年，法兰克福：郎，326页。至少通瑶（《文学之路》，2006年）同时提到了北京方言和南京话。 弗里德里希·奥古斯特·古兹拉夫（Friedrich AugustGützlaff，1803-1851年），《《红楼梦》》 一本小说。 20卷 通讯员注意到”，在：中国资料库，第11版（1842）266-273。]中将主角介绍为“夫人帕尤”（第268页），甚至是“一个非常挑剔的女人”（第270页），以及“ （第272页），并以贾雨村贾雨村（而不是贾政贾政）为宝玉的父亲。--Hu Huifang (talk) 02:19, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

早期出现的误解

在小说翻译出版之前，出现了很多关于小说的误解和负面判断：莫里森认为小说是用“北京话”写的，这种误解延续了很久。[即使在1995年，你也会看到《红楼梦》是用北京话写的这种说法，参见 舒常山，《死神的托马斯·曼斯》，中国，1995年，法兰克福：郎，326页。至少通瑶（《文学之路》，2006年）同时提到了北京方言和南京话。 弗里德里希·奥古斯特·古兹拉夫（Friedrich AugustGützlaff，1803-1851年），《《红楼梦》》 一本小说。 20卷 通讯员注意到”，在：中国资料库，第11版（1842）266-273。]中将主角介绍为“宝玉夫人”（第268页），甚至是称他是“一个非常挑剔的女人”（第270页），以及“ （第272页），并把贾雨村（而不是贾政）当成宝玉的父亲。--Jiang Fengyi (talk) 10:04, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Hu Jin 胡瑾

Also his overall judgement is “in expressing our opinion about the literary merits of the performance, we may say that the style is without any art, being literally the spoken language of the higher classes in the northern provinces.” and he recommends it for language learning (p. 273). Even in 1900, Herbert Allen Giles introduced the novel as have been written in “Peking dialect” and attributed to Cao Xueqin “of the 17th cent.”[ “HUNG-LOU-MENG: 紅樓夢 A famous Chinese novel in the Peking dialect, popularly known as the Dream of the Red Chamber, dealing chiefly with events of domestic life which are very graphically described, and attributed to Ts'ao Hsiieh-ch'in of the 17th cent.” See: Herbert Allen Giles, A glossary of reference on subjects connected with the Far East, 1900, pp. 127-128]

此外，他的总体判断是“在表达我们对文学价值的意见时，我们可以说，这种风格没有任何艺术，实际上是北方各省较高阶层的口语。”他建议将它用于语言学习(第273页)。甚至在1900年，翟理斯介绍说这部小说是用“北京话”写成的，被认为是17世纪曹雪芹的代表作.【紅樓夢：一部以北京话写成的中国著名小说，俗称《红楼梦》，主要描写家庭生活中的琐事，描写生动形象，被认为是十七世纪曹雪芹的主要作品。参考:赫伯特·艾伦·翟里斯，《远东相关主题参考词汇》，1900年，第127-128页]】--Hu Jin (talk) 04:08, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

此外，他认为，在表达我们对文学价值的意见时，我们可以说，这种风格不带有任何艺术成分，是北方各省较高阶层的口语用词。他建议将它用于语言学习当中(第273页)。在1900年，翟理斯表示，这部小说是用“北京话”写成，是17世纪曹雪芹的代表作.【《红楼梦》：一部以北京话写成的中国著名小说，俗称《红楼梦》，主要描写家庭生活中的琐事，其描写生动形象，被认为是十七世纪曹雪芹的代表作。参考：赫伯特·艾伦·翟里斯，《远东相关主题参考词汇》，1900年，第127-128页]】

Ji Tiantian 纪甜甜

Also he claimed that the title “红楼梦” would be “a term which is not found anywhere in the text”,[ Giles 1885.] therefore was figurative and should be translated as “A Vision of Wealth and Power”. Actually the expression is found several times in the text, even in the title of chapter 25 and Baoyu actually very often falls asleep and dreams in the red bed-chambers of his female relatives and friends.

同时，他指出，“红楼梦”这一题目是“一个在文本中完全没有出现的术语”，[翟理斯 1885.]因此，它富含比喻意，应该将之译为“对财富和权力的憧憬”。实际上，“红楼梦”这一表述在文中出现了好几次，甚至出现在25章的标题中，除此之外，宝玉经常在睡梦中梦见他的女性亲友的红色寝室。--Ji Tiantian (talk) 09:34, 15 November 2020 (UTC) 此外，他还声称 "红楼梦 "是 "一个在文本中任何地方都找不到的术语"，[ 翟理斯1885.]因此是形象化的，应译为 "财富和权力的愿景"。其实这句话在正文中，甚至在第二十五回的标题中，都多次出现过，而且宝玉也确实经常在他的女性亲友的红色卧房中入睡和入梦。--Jiang Hao (talk) 09:58, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

而且，他认为“红楼梦”这个名字“在整个作品中无迹可寻”（翟理斯）因此它的选用是修辞手法的表达，并且应该译为“财富与权力之现象”。事实上，“红楼梦”的表达在文章中出现过好几次，甚至出现在第25章的标题里，宝玉经常在女性亲朋好友的红色厢房里睡觉和做梦。--Chang Huiyue (talk) 11:10, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Jiang Fengyi 蒋凤仪

Early Reception of the novel in the West

We first must credit pioneers like J. Davis, who not only tried to systematize Chinese poetry with examples from the Red Chamber Dreams, but also sent the first translations of the novel out in the world and made it known in America and Europe just a decade after it has been published in China. Some sinologists used the story simply as a good example for learning Chinese (Morrison, Thom).

“中国小说传到西方早期”

我们必须赞赏像约翰·戴维斯这样的先驱，他从《红楼梦》中收集诗句，不仅将中国诗词系统化，同时也将《红楼梦》的第一份译文传向世界，使其在中国出版仅10年后，便在美国和欧洲为人所知。一些汉学家将《红楼梦》作为开始学习中文的素材。（汤姆·莫里森）--Jiang Fengyi (talk) 09:53, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

首先，我们必须称赞像约翰·戴维斯这样的先驱，他引用《红楼梦》中的诗句，努力将中国诗词系统化，同时还将《红楼梦》的第一版译文传向世界，使其在中国出版仅10年后，便在美国和欧洲广为人知。一些汉学家将《红楼梦》作为开始学习中文的素材。（汤姆·莫里森）--Xu Jia (talk) 13:22, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Xu Jia

Jiang Hao 姜好

One can conclude that the Red Chamber Dreams transported a differentiated image of China, of fashion, of hair and clothes (Barrow, Bruguière, Goldsmith), of human relations (Goldsmith), and of a highly developed language. In this language, some poetical expressions were only understandable to those who had a broad knowledge of Chinese culture. The finesse of the differentiated use of the dialects according to the respective characters in the novel was simply overlooked (Morrison, Gützlaff, Thom) and only discovered much later. 我们可以得出这样的结论：《红楼梦》传达了一种关于中国，关于时尚，关于发型和衣服（巴罗、布吕吉埃、戈德史密斯），关于人际关系（戈德史密斯），以及关于高度发达的语言的不同形象。在这种语言中，一些诗意的表达方式只有对中国文化有广泛了解的人才能理解。小说中根据各自的人物区分使用方言的精妙之处，根本被忽略了（莫里森、居茨拉夫、托姆），直到后来才发现。--Jiang Hao (talk) 09:54, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

我们可以得出这样的结论：《红楼梦》传达出一种与众不同的中国形象，包括时尚、发型和服饰（巴罗，布鲁吉尔，戈德史密斯）、人际关系（戈德史密斯）和高度发达的语言。在这种语言中，一些诗歌表达只有对中国文化有广泛了解的人才能理解。根据小说中人物的不同而区别使用方言的技巧被忽略了（莫里森、古茨拉夫、汤姆），直到后来才被发现。--Gong Yumian (talk) 15:21, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Jiang Qiwei 蒋淇玮

The first phase of the Western reception was ethnocentric, partially due to the China-bashing of philosophers like Montesquieu, Herder, Hegel and to the imperialist spirit of contemporary Europe. The judgments on the novel are mostly driven by argumentation strategies; that is, the novel is used as a tool to prove one’s own existing attitudes. The novel is exploited to argue for:

民族中心主义时期是接受西方的第一个时期，这部分源于中国对于孟德斯鸠、赫尔德、黑格尔等哲学家的猛烈抨击，以及当代欧洲的帝国主义精神。这本小说中的观点大多是由论证策略驱动的，也就是说，这本小说实际上是用以论证某人已有观点的工具。它论证的有：--Jiang Qiwei (talk) 14:04, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

民族中心主义时期是接受西方的第一个时期。这个时期的产生与中国对于孟德斯鸠、赫尔德、黑格尔等哲学家的猛烈抨击有关，同时也离不开当代欧洲的帝国主义精神。这本小说中的观点大多是由论证策略驱动的，也就是说，这本小说实际上是用以论证某人已有观点的工具。它论证的有：--Guan Qinqing (talk) 14:21, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Kang Haoyu 康浩宇

- exoticism (J. Davis, Barrow, Bruguière)

- the inferiority of Chinese literature (Gützlaff, Langdon Davies, Harte, Giles, Headland)

- polarization by confronting opposite conceptions like ideal of beauty etc. (Goldsmith)

- to proof own hypotheses, like a self-made categorization of Chinese poetry (J. Davis)

In this beginning phase, most comparisons were done within Chinese literature (Gützlaff: best of Chinese literature but inferior to Western literature, later: best of Chinese literature).

- 异国情调（J.戴维斯，巴罗，布鲁基耶）

- 中国文学的劣势（古兹拉夫，兰登戴维斯，哈特，贾尔斯，海德兰）

- 通过对立的概念实现两极分化，如理想之美。（戈尔登史密斯）

- 证明自己的假设，就像中国诗歌的自我分类（J.戴维斯）

在最开始的阶段，大多数的比较都是关于中国文学的。（古兹拉夫：最好的中国文学，但不及西方文学，后来:最好的中国文学）--Kang Haoyu (talk) 15:01, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

-异国情调（J.戴维斯，巴罗，布鲁基耶）

-中国文学的劣势（古茨拉夫，兰登·戴维斯，哈特，吉尔斯，海德兰）

-通过概念的对立来实现两极分化，如理想之美等。（戈德史密斯）

-证明自己的假设，例如对中国诗歌的自我归类（J.戴维斯）

在这个开始阶段，大多数比较都是在中国文学中进行的（古茨拉夫：中国文学最好，但次于西方文学，后来：中国文学最好）。--Peng Xiaoling (talk) 09:15, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Kang Lingfeng 康灵凤

However, when Herder revised his China perception, and when the still inadequate perception of China called for a more differentiated image, the first translated extracts of this rich novel of manners helped to change the perception of China.

Finally Dream was compared to Western literature (Erkes, Wilhelm), was enshrined in the temple of world literature and was assigned attributes that added value to the Western reading experience (Clemons: “slowing down”).

Kong Xianghui 孔祥慧

Motifs for judgements

As motifs for the early judgements mentioned above, I identify exoticization (joy of otherness of fashion and dressing, customs), universalization (world literature), the instrumentalization of the novel as evidence for own hypotheses on literature (Davis’ poetry), the instrumentalization for language learning etc.

There is a change of motifs over time from exoticization and instrumentalization for proving inferiority to Western novels to accepting the novel as part of world literature and a masterpiece of Chinese culture with a special value in documenting Chinese society. 判断的主题 作为上述提及的早期判断的主题，我确定了小说的异国化（时尚和穿着的别样喜乐，习俗），普遍化（世界文学），小说的工具化作为文学假设的证据（如戴维斯的诗歌），以及小说的工具化用于语言学习等。 随着时间的推移，小说主题也发生了变化，从异国化和工具化证明西方小说的劣势，到接受小说作为世界文学的一部分以及可以记录中国社会的具有独特价值的中国文化杰作。--Kong Xianghui (talk) 13:06, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

判断主题 上述提到的早起判断主题，我认为小说的异国化（别样的时尚穿着，习俗带来的乐趣），普遍化（世界文学），工具化，证实了我们对文学（戴维斯诗歌）的假设，也证实了语言学习工具化。 随着时间的推移，小说主题从异国化变成工具化，证实了本身不如西方小说，接受小说是世界文学的一部分，也接受中国文化杰作在记录中国社会方面有一种独特价值。--Gan Fengyu (talk) 03:11, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Kong Yanan 孔亚楠

The novel title

The book title changed from the first translations as “Red Chamber Dreams” to singular “Dream” in 1843 by德明 (А. И. Коваńко / A. I. Kovańko)[ „Traumgesicht auf dem rothen Thurm“, see> 德明 А. И. Коваńко (1808-1870, trans.): „Chun-lou-men (‚Traumgesicht auf dem rothen Thurm‘) oder ‚Geschichte des Steins‘（《石头记》）. Tschen-schi-in erfährt im Traume die Wiederbelebung des Steins; Zja-jui-zun verliebt sich in seiner Armuth in eine schöne Magd.“ , in: Das Ausland, Munich 26 (1843) 198-199, 201-203.] and in 1846 by Robert Thom[ Robert Thom 羅伯聃, “Extract from the Hung-low-mung, chapter VI”, in: Robert Thom, 《正音撮要》 The Chinese speaker. Extracts from works written in the Mandarin language, as spoken at Peking. Compiled for the use of students, by Robert Thom, Esq., H. M. Consul at Ningpo. Part I, Ningpo: Presbyterian Mission Press 1846, pp. 62-89].

小说名

书名刚开始翻译为“红楼梦”（Red Chamber Dreams），1843年德明将其译成了单数“梦”（Dream）。1846年，羅伯聃也将其译为单数形式。--Kong Yanan (talk) 11:33, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Lei Fangyuan 雷方圆

Many scholars have discussed the question if it was more appropriate to call the novel “Story of the Stone” instead of “Dream of the Red Chamber”. Arguments for the latter are that the first printed edition and most of the printed editions afterwards carried this title, so that it reached its fame and was read under this title until today, there was also at least one 120-chapter manuscript copy, the 《乾隆抄本百二十回紅樓夢》Qianlong 120 chapter manuscript; with this title circulating before. However, e.g. the Hawkes/Minford translation and the German Schwarz/Woesler translation use both titles with “also called” in between.

许多学者都讨论过这样一个问题，即这部小说是否应该叫 "石头的故事 "而不是 "红楼梦 "更合适。支持后者的论点是，第一版印刷版和之后的大部分印刷版都使用这个书名，所以它有了自己的名气，直到今天还用这个书名，至少还有一个120章的手抄本，即乾隆抄本百二十回红楼梦；之前流传着这个书名。不过，如霍克斯/明福译本和德国施瓦兹/沃斯勒译本都使用这两个书名，中间有 "也叫"。--Lei Fangyuan (talk) 07:02, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

许多学者都讨论过一个问题，即把这部小说起名为《石头记》 相比《红楼梦》而言是否更为合适。支持后者的人认为，第一版和之后的大多数印刷版已经有《红楼梦》这个名字了，所以名气传播开来，直至今日人们读到的还是这个书名，至少还有一个一百二十回的手抄稿，即《乾隆抄本百二十回红楼梦》，之前就流传这个书名。不过，在霍克斯/明福译本和德国施瓦茨/沃斯勒译本中，两个书名都用到了，之间含有“亦称”两字。--Yuan Yuchen (talk) 09:16, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Lei Kuangxi 雷旷溪

Some scholars argue that the German title Traum der Roten Kammer was grammatically and logically not correct in German, but you need more than a grammar teacher’s imagination to find the answer why this title prevailed: A book title, especially a poetic one of a work of literature, does not at all have to be grammatically correct or logical, the title is simply assigned with the first translations and translators and then naturally develops in the cultural field over time.

一些学者认为,德译版本《红楼梦》的标题“Traum der Roten Kammer”在德语中的语法和逻辑不正确,但是要找到这个标题为什么盛行，光靠语法老师的想象力是不够的:书名,尤其是像诗歌文学作品,并不需要一定在语法或逻辑上正确,标题只是简单地由最初翻译版本和译者指定的，然后随着时间的推移自然地在文化领域发展。--Lei kuangxi (talk) 03:50, 13 November 2020 (UTC)Lei Kuangxi

一些学者认为，《红楼梦》标题的德版译文Traum der Roten Kammer在德语的语法和逻辑上是不正确的，但想到找到这个标题为什么流行的答案，光拥有跟语法老师一样的想象力是不够的:书名，尤其是文学作品充满诗意的书名，根本不需要语法正确或有逻辑，标题只是简单地由最初的译文和译者定下来，然后自然而然地随着时间的推移在文化领域发展。--Ding Daifeng (talk) 07:05, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

一些学者认为,德译版本《红楼梦》的标题“Traum der Roten Kammer”在德语的语法和逻辑方面有误，,但是要找到这个标题为什么盛行的原因，光靠语法老师的想象力是不够的:书名,尤其是像诗歌文学作品的书名,不必在语法或逻辑上正确,因为标题由最初翻译版本和译者指定的，然后随着时间的推移自然地在文化领域发展。--Li LIli (talk) 11:31, 13 November 2020 (UTC)Li Lili

Li Haiquan 李海泉

Language development exactly works like this: New, seemingly incorrect forms of expressions come into existence, and become correct and a part of language simply because they are used. All translation decisions need to be balanced: They do not have to adhere only to a word-by-word translation, or to logic or grammar, but to what is a common expression or broadly accepted.

语言的发展就是这样的:新的，看似不正确的表达形式出现，变得正确且成为语言的一部分，仅仅因为它们被使用了。所有的翻译方式需要权衡:它们不必只遵循逐字的翻译，或是遵循逻辑或语法翻译，而是遵循一种通用的表达方式或被广泛接受的表达方式。--Li Haiquan (talk) 13:07, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

语言的发展就是这样的:新的，看似不正确的表达形式开始出现，然后变得正确且成为语言的一部分，仅仅因为人们使用了它们。译者需要权衡所有的翻译方式:他们不必只遵循逐字翻译，或是只根据逻辑或语法规则，而是应该使用一种通用的或被广泛接受的表达方式。--Fang Jieling (talk) 14:44, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

语言就是以这样的方式发展的：新的，看似不正确的表达新式首先出现，然后它们变为正确表达，且成为语言的一部分，这仅仅因为它们被使用了。翻译需要权衡；不必只遵循字对字的翻译或是遵从逻辑或语法，而应该遵照人们广泛接受的表达。--Peng YuZhi (talk) 14:53, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Li Lili 李丽丽

There are historical settings which influence these historical decisions, like the existence of the English translation title “Dream of the Red Chamber” at that time. Other reasons are that “Traum der” is simply shorter than “Träume im/vom roten Anwesen”, while the reader will still associate the logically correct meaning behind it. The word “Kammer” at the time when the novel was first published in Chinese was linked to luxurious rooms e.g. in castles, so very much appropriate. And the “red” is a leitmotiv. 有一些历史背景影响着这些历史决定，比如当时英译本《红楼梦》的存在。另一个原因是“Traum der”比“Träume im/vom roten Anwesen”短，而读者会联想到其背后逻辑上正确的含义。当该小说第一次以中文出版时，“坎默”一词指豪华的房间（如城堡），非常恰当。“红色”是主旨。--Li LIli (talk) 11:20, 13 November 2020 (UTC)Li Lili

有一些历史背景会影响这些历史决定，例如当时“红楼梦”标题的英文翻译。另一原因是“ Traum der”短于“Träumeim / vom roten Anwesen”，而读者仍会联想到其背后逻辑上正确的含义。当小说首次以中文出版时，“ Kammer”一词指豪华的房间（如城堡），这是非常恰当的，因为“红色”是主旨。--Kong Xianghui (talk) 13:17, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Li Lingyue 李凌月

To pay tribute to historical developments of becoming a well-known expression, in the German edition, the mentioning of “rote Kammer” was capitalized into “Rote Kammer” in the new edition, very much alike “Red Chamber” in English at the very beginning of the English translation history. 为了纪念历史的发展成为一个众所周知的表达，在德语版中，“rote Kammer”在新版中被大写为“Rote Kammer”，非常类似于英语翻译史开始时的英版红楼梦。--Li Lingyue (talk) 04:30, 14 November 2020 (UTC) 。 向历史发展致敬成为一种众所周知的表达方式,在德语版中，“rote Kammer”在新版中被大写为“Rote Kammer”，非常类似于英语翻译史开始时对红楼梦的译法。--Li Haiquan (talk) 13:11, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Li Liqin 李丽琴

80 or 120 chapters

The First European Conference on the Dream of the Red Chamber in Bonn 1992 agreed that the 120 chapter version was the authoritative one because it was simply the version under which the novel reached its fame and is best known among readers. Publishing houses argue that a fragment is harder to sell. Also, the part of Cao Xueqin in the last 40 chapters is not finally enligthened, and I always recommend to stick to the editors claims until falsification, therefore we should at least assume Cao’s authorship of the last 40 chapter titles and maybe even some parts of the text.

“80章还是120章”

第一届以红楼梦为主题的欧洲会议于1992年在波恩举行，会议上，专家们一致认为120章的版本更具权威性。原因是这个版本在世界上广为流传，在读者中广为人知。出版社认为，单独把书的某几个章节拎出来是很难出售的。此外，曹雪芹撰写的最后40章中部分内容并没有被最终确定下来，因此我始终建议坚持编者的主张，直到被篡改为止。基于此，我们至少应承认曹雪芹拥有最后40章甚至是部分文本的著作权。--Li Liqin (talk) 09:37, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

80章还是120章

第一届以红楼梦为主题的欧洲会坛于1992年在波恩举办。与会者一致认为120章的版本是权威版本，因为这个版本使红楼梦声名远扬、广为人知。出版社认为取其中几章出版成书，销量会更惨淡。曹雪芹撰写的最后40章是否出版最终也没有确定。我会一直坚持编者的观点，直到这本小说被改动后出版。因此，我们至少应该承认曹雪芹对于最后40章甚至是部分文本的著作权。--Kong Yanan (talk) 12:09, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Li Luyi 李璐伊

How far other contributors have come close to or deviated from Cao’s original intent for the last 40 chapters may stay object of research. However, they seem to have been successful, because the 120-chapter has prevailed historically, also in its translations, and found the acceptance of the readership.

Deviations from the original

Kuhn, successful and critizised, with his Adapting and Foreignizing, very pleasing but ever-the-same-style translations of so different novels like Shuihuzhuan, Xiyouji and Hongloumeng is history and today one among many translations and more and more readers are able to read the Hongloumeng in other languages like English or even in Chinese.

在最后40章中，其他编著者在多大程度上接近或偏离了曹雪芹原本的意图，这仍是一个有待考究的问题。然而，他们似乎取得了成功，因为120章的版本及其译本在历史上一直很流行，并获得了读者的认可。

与原始版本的差异

翻译家库恩（Kuhn）很成功但也受到了批评，他对许多不同小说的翻译经过改编和异化都非常有趣但风格千篇一律，例如《水浒传》、《西游记》和《红楼梦》之类的小说的译本已成为历史，如今已是众多译本中的一种，越来越多的读者能够阅读其他语言（英语甚至中文）版本的《红楼梦》。--Li Luyi (talk) 12:10, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Li Meng 李梦

Kuhn mentions to have used two specific copies of the original work. There are scholars who doubted that he really used the copies he indicated, because they could not be found. I see no reason to doubt Kuhn’s statement, it is more likely that he used grey editions which are not registered and maybe cannot be found any more.

1st deviation by Minford: The explicit episode about the human-ghostly intercourse, chapter 102

This episode is a black humour one, where Wu Gui’s wife has “a little bit a cold”, takes the wrong medicine and dies. 库恩提到，他使用了原作的两个特定副本。有学者质疑他是否真的使用了他指出的副本，因为它们没法被找到。我认为没有理由怀疑库恩的说法，更有可能是他使用的灰色版本没有注册，可能已经找不到了。 闵福德的第一次偏离:关于人鬼交合的突出情节，第102章 这一集是黑色幽默的一集，讲的是吴贵的妻子“有点感冒”，吃错了药然后死了。--Li Meng (talk) 15:29, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Li Yongshan 李泳珊

At this passage, it looks like we have the opposite case as in the second example: In the Chinese original the whole sentence “enjoyed her at inordinate length” is missing.

程甲本: 那媳妇子本有些感冒着了，日间吃错了药，晚上吴贵到家，已死在炕上。外面的人因那媳妇子不妥当，便都说妖怪爬过墙吸了精去死的。

程乙本: 那媳妇子本有些感冒着了，日间吃错了药，晚上吴贵到家，已死在炕上。外面的人因那媳妇子不大妥当，便说妖怪爬过墙来吸了精去死的。

Minford: Because of her reputation for promiscuity, other members of the household staff concluded that a spirit must have climbed over the Garden wall, enjoyed her at inordinate length, and finally sucked the sap' out of her. She had caught a cold before;Worsely she took the wrong medicine in the day time, dead already when Wu Gui arrived home in the evening.Neighbours gossiped she was sucked to death by a monster because of lacking in virtue.--Li Yongshan (talk) 17:15, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Li Yu 李玉

The sentence seems to be made up by John Minford. It is the explicit report of a sexual intercourse between a ghost and a woman, which ended, when the ghost sucked the lifeblood out of her. Minford does not only extend this brief report about the death of a woman by adding a sexual intercourse between a human and a non-human, which is inappropriate or abnormal by itself, but stresses the abnormality even by characterizing this intercourse in more detail, as taking “inordinate” long.

Lin Min 林敏

Originally, Cao/Gao had only very briefly reported on Wu Gui’s wife’s death. They mentioned the natural cause of death, that she had taken the wrong medicine. However, since most of the strokes of fate in this novel are explained as to be motivated through moral retaliation, Cao/Gao describe her as “promiscuous”. In the logic of moral retaliation, she earns to die. The ghost then would be the executor. But still he only is described as climbing over the wall and sucking the lifeblood out of her.

最初，曹高二人只是非常简短地提到吴贵妻子的去世。 他们提到了死亡的自然原因，她服错了药。 但是，这本小说中大多数人的命运，被解释为是出于道德报复的动机，所以曹高二人将她形容为“滥交”。 按照道德报复的逻辑，她死了， 妖怪成了杀人凶手。 但是，妖怪仍然只是被描述为从墙上爬过，将血从她身上吸了出来。--Lin Min (talk) 12:02, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

最初，曹高二人只是非常简短地提到吴贵妻子的死。他们提到了她死亡的自然原因，是她服错了药。但是，由于这本小说中大多数对命运的描写都被解释为是出于道德报复的动机，所以曹高二人将她描写为“滥交的”。按照道德报复的逻辑，她死了，幽灵将成为她死亡的执行者。但是他仍然只是被描述为从墙上爬过，吸干了她的血夺走了她的命。--Li Luyi (talk) 12:32, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Lin Xin 林鑫

Minford adds an action, which leads further than Cao/Gao wrote. This action still is connected to the story, it even drives its authority from Wu Gui’s wife’s promiscuous way of living. The scene might have stimulated the readers’ fantasy, but not necessarily in the direction of Minfords account. Did Minford simply give his fancy full scope? He might also have been encouraged to interpret this scene the way he did because of the parallel scene with the mirror in chapter 12, where Jia Rui also has inordinate often sexual intercourse with the ghost of Xifeng, and gradually loses his lifeblood until he dies on a large patch of semen.

闵福德给曹雪芹、高鹗所作的《红楼梦》注入了新的血液。这一举动仍紧贴故事，甚至从吴贵妻子淫乱的生活方式中汲取了权威理由。这个场景可能激发了读者的想象，尽管并不一定是按照闵福德描写的方向。闵福德仅是完整呈现了他幻想的全部吗？他可能也在努力按照第十二章处风月宝鉴镜中的平行场景来解释这个场景，在该场景中，贾瑞经常与西峰的美女幻影云雨欢爱，逐渐失去了生命力，最终死在一滩留有大块精液的床上。--Lin Xin (talk) 13:31, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

闵福德之举给曹雪芹、高鹗所作的《红楼梦》注入了新的血液。这一举动仍紧贴故事，甚至从吴贵妻子淫乱的生活方式中汲取了合理理由。这个场景可能激发了读者幻想，尽管并不一定是按照闵福德描写的方向。闵福德仅是完整呈现了他幻想的全部吗？他可能已受鼓舞地按照第十二章处风月宝鉴镜中的平行场景来解释这个场景。在该场景中，贾瑞经常与西峰的倩影幽魂共赴云雨，渐渐被吸尽了精气直到咽气，身下一大滩精液。--Shi Diwen (talk) 14:58, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Ling Zijin 凌子瑾

After Minford had altered the original, the original ending of that scene did not fit any more: The action of killing her by sucking the lifeblood out of her comes too abrupt. In one subordinate clause they enjoy their sex and even inappropriately long, and in the next he kills her, which is by itself also outrageous. So Minford had to step into the original text sentence and add the adverb “finally” in order to bring it into a chronological and resultative relation.

Liu Bo 刘博

Kuhn and Schwartz/Woesler have translated this passage without these additions and did not elaborate possible fantasies.

The effect of Minfords addition is, that the episode becomes more interesting, scandalous and sexually explicit.

In order to find out, what made Minford add this information, we should consider not only the original, but also a then existing translation. Minford in his preface thanked Yang Xianyi for his help with his own translation Hawkes/Minford 4:30. When we look at the Yang/Yang translation, we find the adding already there:

Liu Jinxingqi 刘金惺琦

Yang/Yang: Outsiders, knowing her bad reputation, claimed that a monster had climbed over the wall to enjoy her until she died of exhaustion.

This translation in many respects is not so accurate. The couple Yang/Yang uses more general words, leaving out the causal conjunction “because” [she was known for promiscuity]. For 不[大]妥当 (promiscuity) they even use the more general “bad reputation”, and maybe in order to compensate for the lacking sexual connotation in this, they added “to enjoy her”, which we do not find in the Chinese original text.

Liu Liu 刘柳

And they already prepare the way for Minford’s “finally” by adding the “until”. As the whole Yang/Yang translation uses simpler words, 妖怪 is translated as “monster” instead of “ghost”. Since immediately before this episode the garden is described as being the home of ghosts, he latter might have been the better expression. Also the “death of exhaustion” is an interpretation, the Chinese text only reads “sucked the lifeblood out of her”.

他们也将闵福德的“finally”(最后)一词改为“until”(直到)。杨戴夫妇的整个译文用的都是相对简单的词，如“妖怪”译成“monster”(怪兽)而不是“ghost”(幽灵)。在上一个片段中，杨戴夫妇将花园描述成幽灵的家，所以用后者(ghost)表达或许更好。同样，“死于精疲力竭”只是一种解释，在中文文本中只解作“吸干她的生命之血”。--Liu Liu (talk) 09:17, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

他们也将闵福德的“finally”(最后)一词改为“until”(直到)。杨戴夫妇的整个译文用的都是相对简单的词，如“妖怪”译成“monster”(怪兽)而不是“ghost”(幽灵)。但就在上一个片段中，花园描述为幽灵的家，所以用后者(ghost)表达或许更好。同样，“死于精疲力竭”只是一种解释，在中文文本中只解作“吸干她的生命之血”。--Kang Haoyu (talk) 15:07, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Liu Ou 刘欧

So it seems that Minford has decided to keep the deviation of Yang/Yang, which is disloyal to the original and therefore falls under category c. However it may protect the Yang/Yang translation from discovery of its same deviation, since only people fluent in both languages will be able to discover it. Was Minford’s disloyalty to the original and his loyalty to his fellow translators a conspiracy? Or did Minford not directly translate from the Chinese, but simply improve the Yang/Yang translation? Since he uses “spirit” instead of “monster”, he still seems to have been conscious about everything and seems to have consciously decided to keep the Yang/Yang deviation for the mentioned possible reasons.

因此，Minford似乎决定保留Yang / Yang的变体，这与原文有所偏差，因此属于c类。 但是，由于只有精通两种语言的人才能发现它，因此它可以保留Yang / Yang这一翻译，而读者不会发现这一变体。 Minford对原著的不忠和对同时期译者的不忠是阴谋吗？ 还是Minford不直接从中文翻译而只是改进了Yang / Yang这一翻译？ 由于他使用“精神”而不是“怪物”，因此他似乎全文有所了解，并且出于上述可能的原因，似乎有意识地决定保持Yang / Yang这一变体。--Liu Ou (talk) 11:18, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Liu Yangnuo 刘洋诺

2nd deviation by Minford: The explicit episode on the first attempt of the rape of the nun Miaoyu, chapter 111

In chapter 111, we find another anecdote, where thieves invade Rongguofu and steal chests of treasures. On their way, they discover the appealing nun Miaoyu and start a first attempt to rape her. The exact passage reads in both editions:

程甲本and程乙本: 又欺上屋俱是女人，且又畏惧，正要踹进门去，因听外面有人进来追赶，所以贼众上房。

Liu Yi 刘艺

Yang/Yang: The thieves had known that there were no men in the house. While in Hsi-Chun’s courtyard they had peeped through the window and been inflamed by the sight of a ravishing nun. As there were only terrified women inside, they were about to kick down the door when they heard the night-watch rushing in after them and promptly climbed up the roof.

Minford: After the main part of their mission was accomplished, the thieves, knowing how unprotected the Jia mansion was, had been casually snooping around in Xi-chun's courtyard, and had caught a glimpse there of a very attractive young nun, which had put all sorts of mischievous ideas into their heads.

杨/阳:贼人早知屋内没有男人。在熙春的院子里时，他们曾从窗外偷看，看到一个淫荡的尼姑，就被激怒了。由于里面只有被吓坏的女人，他们正要踹门，却听到守夜人跟着冲进来，于是立即爬上屋顶。

明福:在完成了主要部分的任务后，盗贼们知道贾府是多么的没有防范，就在熙春的院子里随意地窥探，在那里瞥见了一个很有魅力的年轻尼姑，这让他们产生了各种恶作剧的想法。--Liu Yi (talk) 08:02, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

杨/阳:贼人早知屋内没有男人。在熙春院子里时，贼人们从窗外偷看过，在看到是一个淫荡的尼姑后怒火中烧。房里面只有被吓坏的女人，他们正要踹门，却听到守夜人跟着冲进来，就立即爬上了屋顶。

明福:在完成了主要任务后，盗贼们知道了贾府的防范是多么松懈，就在熙春的院子里随意地窥探。后在那里瞥见了一个风情万种的年轻尼姑，这让他们产生了各种恶作剧的想法。--Liu Yiyu (talk) 01:57, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Liu Yiyu

杨/阳:贼人早知屋内没有男人。在熙春的院子里时，他们曾从窗外偷看到一个淫荡的尼姑，并为之激怒。房间只有被吓坏的女人，他们正要踹门，却听到守夜人跟着冲进来，于是立即爬上屋顶。 闵福德:在完成了主要任务后，盗贼们知道贾府没有多少防范，就在熙春的院子里随意地窥探，他们在那里瞥见了一个很有魅力的年轻尼姑，由此产生了各种恶作剧的想法。--Liu Zhiwei (talk) 02:43, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Liu Yiyu 刘怡瑜

They knew that the apartment was unguarded save by a handful of scared old women, and were about to kick the door in and put an abrupt end to Adamantina's meditations when they heard the sound of footsteps corning from outside and escaped onto the roof-top.

Minford has added a sentence here. We see that the original did not contain this sexually explicit clause, therefore the deviation does not fall under category a. We can also exclude the possibility that Minford used an earlier edition which might have been censored in the more prudish socialist era, since we have the original Cheng-Gao edition from 1791/1792.

他们知道那院子无人看守，只有寥寥几个年纪大的姑子在。他们正要踢开门，打断法师的冥想，却听到门外传来了脚步声，接着就逃上了屋顶。 明福在这里加了一个句子。我们可以看到原版是没有这种直接带性意味的从句的，因此这种偏差没有受到分类的影响。我们可以排除这种可能性，那就是明福用的是早先的版本，这种版本可能是在更为保守的社会主义时代通过了审查的，因为我们有1791/1792年的程高原版作对照。--Liu Yiyu (talk) 01:51, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Liu Yiyu

他们知道公寓无人看守，里面只有几个胆小的老妇人在。他们正准备踢门进屋，打断阿曼丹蒂娜的沉思，却听到了门外传来的脚步声，于是就逃到了屋顶上。

Minford在这里添加了一个句子。 我们看到原始文件不包含此色情内容从句，因此该偏差不属于类别a。 我们还可以排除Minford使用较早版本的可能性，该版本可能在更为审慎的社会主义时代受到审查，因为我们拥有的最早的高教版本是1791/1792。--Ou Rong (talk) 07:47, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Ou Rong

Liu Zhiwei 刘智伟

Minford’s extra sentence also does not exist in the translations Yang/Yang, Kuhn, nor in the later Schwartz/Woesler.

In the Chinese original, the emerging sexual tension, stimulating the readers fantasy of a rape, is stopped immediately, when the kicking in of the door already at the beginning of this sentence is relieved by the wording “正要” were just about to…

We can also exclude the category b. here, because it is not possible to read one subordinate clause more into the original.

闵福德的附加句也不存在于杨/阳、库恩以及后来的施瓦茨/沃斯勒的译本中。 在中文原著中出现的性张力，因刺激了读者对强奸的幻想，立即被制止了，在句子开头敲门动作开始的时候，通过“正要（were just about to）"一词所代替。 在这里，我们也可以排除b类，因为不可能在原文中多一个从句。 --Liu Zhiwei (talk) 02:36, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

闵福德的附加句也不存在于杨/阳、库恩以及后来的施瓦茨/沃斯勒的译本中。 在中文原著中出现的性张力，因刺激了读者对强奸犯的幻想，立即被制止了，在句子开头敲门动作开始的时候，通过“正要（were just about to）"一词代替。 在这里，我们也可以排除b类，因为不可能在原文中多一个从句。--Lou Cancan (talk) 08:09, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Lou Cancan 娄灿灿

Might it have been a necessary explanation, which Minford did not want to explain in an annotation and therefore had to integrate into the text? This, we can also exclude, since from the context it is explicitly clear why they wanted to kick in the door.

In order to understand Minford’s intention, we should ask what effect this wilful addition of this sentence has on the reader? First, this sexually arousing scene becomes longer. This gives the reader more time to develop fantasies, what might happen. Minford adds a sentence which expresses exactly these fantasies: When the men enter the room, Miaoyu will stop her meditation.

这可能是一个必要的解释，闵福德不想在注释中解释，因此必须融入文本?这一点，我们也可以排除，因为从上下文可以清楚地看出他们为什么要踢门。

为了理解闵福德的意图，我们应该问一下这个故意添加的句子对读者产生了什么影响?首先，这个性刺激的场景变得更长。这给读者更多的时间去想象会发生什么。闵福德加了一句话，就准确地表达了这些幻想:当男人进入房间时，妙玉就会停止冥想。--Lou Cancan (talk) 08:15, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Luo Weijia 罗维嘉

The shifting of the perspective to the woman adds to the sexual tension. Both, the active men and the so far passive woman are now mentioned and can act in the fantasies of the reader. Even the end of passivity of the woman is associated, when Minford explicitly states that the meditation will end. And he stresses again the brutal aspect of this scene, using the word “abrupt”.

The novel is mostly very implicit and connotative, it uses metaphors like “wind and rain game” for describing sexual intercourse. Having explored the effects, Minford achieved with his deviation, one might guess, that the intention was to make this episode more explicit, to sexually arouse the readers.

Luo Yuqing 罗雨晴

This can be seen as disloyal to the original and its author, and it maybe seen as loyal to the profit of the press and the royalties.

Sequels

Many other authors also were inspired by the author and wrote a sequel to the novel. Soon, the novel was broadly accepted as another novel of the format of “四大奇书 Si da qi shu” and, since times became more strict regarding pornographic literature, replaced the Jin Ping Mei. Already three years after the appearance, the Suoyin-School was founded and speculations began about the author and if the story had a real background. Please refer to the table of sequels in the attachment.

Ma Juan 马娟

Spreading of the novel to Russia

In 1832, a member of the Russian Orthodox Mission in China (俄国驻北京宗教使团学员) brought a manuscript copy of the Story of the Stone back to Russia. It had 35 vols. (currently in the St. Petersburg branch of the Russian Scientific Oriental Institute). Another member of the Mission, А. И. Коваńко, used the pen name 德明 to introduce part of the first chapter to the West.

Reevaluation in Late Qing and status in the Cultural Revolution

Ma Shuya 马淑雅

Wang Guowei improved the status of the novel since 1885, he saw it as one of the most important pieces of Chinese literature, and the discussions of Hu Shi and Yu Pingbo.

During the Cultural Revolution, the Dream of the Red Chamber was forbidden again.

Spreading in Germany

The total number of copies published between 1932 and 1977 is 89335 volumes, the Jin Ping Mei 《金瓶梅》 reached between 1930 and 1977 175000 vols. Der Traum der Roten Kammer rangiert auf Platz 4 der Welt-Bestsellerliste.

References

[Please refer to the full bibliographic references in the footnotes for now.]

Ma Zhixing 马智星

Report

3rd International Dream of the Red Chamber Conference in Europe

Martin Woesler

On November 7-8, 2015, the in¬ter¬national conference “Celebrating Cao Xue¬qin’s 300th anniversary - 3rd International Dream of the Red Chamber Conference Europe” was hosted at Folkwang University of Arts, Essen/Germany and organized by Martin Woesler. The Cao Xueqin Society (Peking) and the European Dream of the Red Chamber Society (Bochum) invited 30 speakers from the USA, Australia, Asia (Hong Kong, Taiwan, Korea), Europe (Germany, Hungary, Norway, Slovakia, Switzerland) and China (from the cities of Peking, Shanghai, Chengdu). Sponsor was the Beijing Cao Xueqin Culture Development Foundation.

Meng Ying 孟莹

In the greetings, Cultural Attaché Chinese Embassy Berlin Chen Ping, Essen Folkwang University of Arts’ chancellor Michael Fricke and Essen mayor Thomas Kufen expressed their gratitude and their feelings of great honor to host this 3rd international conference in Europe on Cao and his novel after the first two conferences in Bonn/Germany 1992 and Olomouc/Czech Republic 2014. Vice Minister Hu Deping, president of the Peking Cao Xueqin Society, said this conference offered the rare opportunity of sharing findings among experts from China and experts from the rest of the world, opening opportunities for further cooperation.

Mo Ling 莫玲

Martin Woesler welcomed the participants in his function as president of the European Dream of the Red Chamber Society. He expressed his satisfaction with the high quality of the contributions submitted from all over the world, including 10 written contributions, a selection of which would be published in the European Journal of Sinology. Duan Jiangli announced that a selection of the Chinese papers will be published in the Cao Xueqin Research.

作为欧洲红学会的主席，吴漠汀热烈欢迎所有参会者。他非常满意对来自世界各地的10篇高质量的书面稿件，其中一部分将在《欧洲汉学杂志》上发表。段江力宣布，中国论文选集将在《曹雪芹研究》上发表。--Mo Ling (talk) 07:26, 13 November 2020 (UTC)Mo Ling

作为欧洲红学会的主席，吴漠汀热烈欢迎所有参会者。对于来自世界各地的10篇高质量的书面稿件，他表示十分满意，其中一部分将在《欧洲汉学杂志》上发表。段江力宣布，精选的中国论文将会在《曹雪芹研究》上发表。--Tan Xingyue (talk) 15:20, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

作为欧洲红学会的主席，吴漠汀热烈欢迎所有参会者。他对来自世界各地的10篇高质量书面稿件表示十分满意，其中一部分选集将发表在《欧洲汉学杂志》上。段江力宣布，中国论文选集将会发表在《曹雪芹研究》上。--Nie Xiaolou (talk) 14:43, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Nie Xiaolou

Mo Nan 莫南

Hu Deping opened the first panel on studies on the author (Caoxue) with a discussion of the banner identity of Cao Xueqin, he stressed the imperial proximity of his even plain white banner and his high social status. Hu sees descriptions of Cao asking to put drinks on his tab as a proof of his trustworthiness due to his steady imperial stipend. Fan Zhibin in his contribution interpreted Cao’s status lower. Hu Deping expressed his skepticism towards the authenticity of any findings of cultural relicts after the 1970s attributed to Cao. But he pointed at the fact, that two places in the Old Summer Palace are called like the Daguan yuan itself (‘Daguan’) or like a place in it.

Nie Xiaolou 聂晓楼

Ellen B. Widmer (Wellesley College) analyzed the characterization of Cao as a dramatic character in the sequel Hou Honglou meng. Zhang Shucai (Peking) explained further the findings on social status of aristocratic families and banner people close to the imperial court, with an analysis of the Han and Manchu heritages. Zhan Song (Peking) also reflected on the ethnic identity, when he introduced Honglou meng-critics among Qing Eight Banner people. Duan Qiming (Peking) approached the family history from Cao Yin’s “Beihong fuji”, showing connections to author and novel.

Ellen B. Widmer（威尔斯利学院）在续写《后红楼梦》中将曹雪芹描写为一个戏剧性的人物。张书才（北京）通过分析汉族和满族的文化遗产，进一步阐释了关于处于世族社会地位以及接近王室的旗人研究。Zhan Song（北京）在介绍红楼梦时同样反映了民族认同这种现象。张书才和Zhan Song均为清八旗人的批评家。段启明（北京）从曹寅的《北红拂记》中研究了曹雪芹的家族历史，体现了作者与小说之间的联系。--Nie Xiaolou (talk) 14:30, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Nie Xiaolou

Ou Rong 欧蓉

Ling Hon Lam (Berkeley) opened the 2nd panel “Studies on the novel” with an analysis of the difference of the reading culture in the novel and its sequels. Since the habit of ‘reading silently’ changed at the beginning of Qing to ‘reading aloud’, the silent reading is prominent in the novel and the out loud reading is prominent in the sequels as well as in the last 40 chapters. Duan Jiangli (Peking) introduced the different handwritten comments in the manuscript versions and stressed the importance of the early Zhi Yanzhai commentary. Zhou Wenye (Peking) presented a tool to compare and analyze the different manuscript versions including comments and the different print versions of the novel.

林汉麟（伯克利）通过分析小说及其续集中的阅读文化差异，开设了第二个小组“小说研究”。由于自清初开始，“默读”的习惯就变成了“大声朗读”，因此，小说中突出了无声阅读，而续集和最后40章中突出了大声朗读。段江丽（北京）在稿件版本中介绍了不同的手写评论，并强调了早期的阎彦斋评论的重要性。周文业（北京）介绍了一种工具，用于比较和分析不同的手稿版本，包括评论和小说的不同印刷版本。--Ou Rong (talk) 07:24, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Ou Rong

Ouyang Jinglan 欧阳静兰

Up to three versions can be displayed simultaneously with the differences highlighted. He demonstrated how to prove which kind of relation certain versions had and what suggested that, in certain cases, there must still exist a missing edition. He favored the Cheng B edition over the Cheng A edition, since the corrections were mostly improvements. He also argued that there were many intermediate editions, even between Cheng A and B, since all surplus printed pages were used for later editions. Zhang Hui (Hong Kong) introduced the novel in a different media form, the drama, focusing on one example of a drama adaption.

Ouyang Ling 欧阳玲

Marina Čarnogurská (Slovakia), translator of the Slovakian full translation, argued that the last 40 chapters were authored not by Gao E, but maybe even by Cao Xueqin. General consent among the participants was that Gao might have had a more editorial function and some parts of the last 40 chapters might have been written by Cao.

In the 3rd panel “Interdisciplinary/Intertextual Approaches”, Shang Wei (Columbia University/USA) presented insights into visual culture in Qing dynasty and argued that there was a strong European influence in the Manchu court, which is traceable in the novel and influenced Cao Xueqin.

玛丽娜·乔阿诺古尔斯卡（斯洛伐克）是斯洛伐克语译本的译者，她认为书的后四十章的作者不是高鹗，而是曹雪芹。参会人员也一致同意，高鹗更多的只是负责编写，后四十章的创作实际是曹雪芹完成的。

在第三场主题为“跨学科/跨文本方法”的座谈会上，尚伟（美国哥伦比亚大学）提出了关于清朝时期视觉文化的一些观点，他认为满洲朝廷受欧洲文化影响颇深，这种影响在曹雪芹的小说中也有迹可循。--Ouyang Ling (talk) 06:27, 13 November 2020 (UTC)Ouyang Ling

玛丽娜·乔阿诺古尔斯卡Marina Čarnogurská(斯洛伐克)认为，最后40章的作者不是高鄂，甚至可能是曹雪芹。与会代表普遍认为，高娥可能有更多的编辑功能，最后40章的部分内容可能是曹雪芹写的。

在第三板块 "跨学科/跨文本方法 "中，尚伟（美国哥伦比亚大学）提出了对清代视觉文化的见解，认为满族宫廷中存在着强烈的欧洲影响，这在小说中是有迹可循的，并影响了曹雪芹。--Liu Yi (talk) 08:04, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Peng Dan 彭丹

Kam Louie (Hong Kong) compared the novel with Three Kingdoms in regard to masculinity, homo-sociality and class, arguing how Jia Baoyu’s homo-erotic friendships were perceived differently depending on times and lenses. Louise P. Edwards (Australia) explored an aestheticized masculinity in clothing, dress and decoration as described in the novel. Karl-Heinz Pohl (Trier/Ger¬many) analyzed Buddhist thoughts in the novel with the example of several wisdoms from the “Heart Sutra”, he showed pro¬xi¬mi¬ty between Buddhist and Daoist thoughts. Harro von Senger (Frei¬burg/ Ger¬¬many) compared supraplanning (in China traditionally ‘moulüe’) in the novel and the German family tragedy ‘Nibelun¬gen¬lied’.

Peng Juan 彭娟

Zhu Ping (Peking) introduced the historical background of drama culture at the time of Kangxi, Yongzheng (the time the novel was written), and Qianlong. Kristina Schröder (Zurich/Switzerland) ex¬plained references of early illustrations of the novel with the ‘Romance of the West Chamber’ with the example of Wang Xilian ordering flowers to blossom. Stefan Mess¬mann (Budapest/Hungary) asked from the legal perspective, if the Marxist dream of equality had been achieved. Laura Bing Han (Trier) compared the novel and the ‘Buddenbrooks’ regarding philosophical dua¬lism. 朱平(北京)介绍了康熙、雍正、乾隆时期戏剧文化的历史背景。克里斯蒂娜·施洛德(苏黎世/瑞士)以王喜莲命令花朵开放为例，简单地引用了《西厢记》的早期插图。斯特芬·密瑟安(布达佩斯/匈牙利)从法律的角度提问，马克思主义的平等梦想是否已经实现。劳拉冰寒(特里尔)比较了小说和“布登布鲁克斯”关于哲学对立主义的问题。--Pengjuan (talk) 07:24, 15 November 2020 (UTC)pengjuan

Peng Ruihong 彭锐宏

Panel 4 introduced the novel’s in¬ter¬national dissemination, and here Martin Woesler (Witten/Germany, Rome/Italy) ana¬lyzed the changing reception of the novel by early Western translators and recipients. The novel was instrumentalized (e.g. for language learning) and exoticized. Wu Wei (Oslo/Norway, Heidelberg/Ger¬many) explored the color symbolism of ‘redness’ in novel.

第4小组介绍了小说的国际传播，马丁·怀斯勒（Martin Woesler）（威滕/德国，罗马/意大利）分析了早期西方译者和接受者对小说的接受态度。 这本小说被工具化（例如用于语言学习）并被异化。 Wu Wei（奥斯陆/挪威，海德堡/德国）探索小说中“红色”的色彩象征。

The translations were dealt with in panel 5, Daniela Zhang Cziráková (Slovakia) in-tro¬duced the Czech and Slovak translations of the novel. He Jun (Chengdu) introduced German excerpt translations before Franz Kuhn and Khoo An Ny (Fudan Shanghai) the state of translations in Malaysia.

在第5小组中讨论了译文，其中Daniela ZhangCziráková（斯洛伐克）介绍了该小说的捷克语和斯洛伐克语翻译。 何俊（成都）在弗朗兹·库恩（Franz Kuhn）和邱安妮（Kou An Ny）（复旦上海）介绍马来西亚的翻译状况之前，先介绍了德国的摘录翻译。--Peng Ruihong (talk) 05:54, 14 November 2020 (UTC)--Peng Ruihong (talk) 05:54, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Peng Xiaoling 彭小玲

General consent of the participants was that the 120 chapter version was the most authoritative one and that the title Dream of the Red Chamber was more common than its alternative title Story of the Stone.

Wei Lingzhi (Peking) introduced results of a 2015 representative survey among Chinese readers about the novel and the author proving its unbroken popularity and high esteem. Regarding translations, the Hawkes/Minford translation was preferred over Yang/Yang.

与会者普遍同意120章回版本是最具权威的版本，而且《红楼梦》这一书名比《石头记》更为常见。

魏凌志（北京）介绍了2015年中国读者对这部小说及作者的代表性调查结果，证明了这部小说一直以来所受到的广泛欢迎和高度尊重。至于翻译版本，霍克斯、闵福德的比杨阳更受喜爱。--Peng Xiaoling (talk) 09:45, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

与会者普遍同意120章回版本是最具权威的版本，而且《红楼梦》比另一个书名《石头记》更为常见。

魏凌志（北京）介绍了2015年中国读者对这部小说及作者的代表性调查结果，证明了这部小说一直以来所受到的广泛欢迎和高度尊重。至于翻译版本，霍克斯/闵福德的比杨阳的翻译版本更受喜爱。--Lou Cancan (talk) 08:24, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Peng Yongliang 彭永亮

All participants praised the importance of the recently published full translations in German and other languages and welcomed the opportunity to share their findings especially between Chinese and non-Chinese scholars. The choreographer Shen Fang-yu and the dramaturg Martin Woesler also presented a taping of the Folkwang Dance Studio Performance “REDCHAMBERDREAM”.

For further information please refer to the conference website http://china-studies. com.

所有与会者都赞扬了最近出版的德语和其他语言的完整译本的重要性，并由衷希望有机会在中国学者和非中国学者之间分享他们的发现。舞蹈编导沉芳玉和戏剧编剧马丁·伍斯勒（Martin Woesler）也为富克旺根舞蹈工作室表演的“红楼梦”进行了录制。 有关更多信息，请访问会议网站http://china-studies.com。--Peng Yongliang (talk) 14:03, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

World Citizen Lu Xun:

Critical reception of European Culture by Lu Xun with the examples of Nazi cultural politics and of the Nobel Prize

世界公民魯迅：魯迅批判性地接受歐洲文化——以納粹文化政治與諾貝爾獎為例

Martin Woesler 吳漠汀

Witten/Herdecke University 北京師範大學

Peng Yuzhi 彭育志

Abstract

Lu Xun was well aware of global politics in culture, as proven by documents discovered a few years ago. Three days after the book burning in Berlin on May 10, 1933, Lu Xun, as a Member of the Executive Board of the “China League for Civil Rights,” protested the “brutal terror and reaction” of Nazi Germany. Lu Xun took action and submitted an official protest to the German Consulate in Shanghai, which was taken seriously by the Nazi diplomats. He protested the racist suppression of Jewish authors while his own piece of world literature, “A Madman’s Diary” (1918), would have been considered “degenerate art” if published in Germany. In June 1933, he proved his in-depth understanding of Nazi crimes, especially the book-burning, humiliation and deportation of writers, in two essays.

摘要

近年发现的档案证明，鲁迅在文化事件中有很强的政治意识。在1933年5月10日柏林焚书事件发生后三日，鲁迅作为中国民权保障同盟执行委员会的一员对纳粹德国的“恐怖行径和残忍回应”表示抗议。鲁迅采取行动并向德国驻上海使馆提交了一份官方抗议书，对此，纳粹外交官的态度十分慎重。鲁迅抗议对犹太作家的种族压迫，而他自己的一篇世界文学，“狂人日记”（1918），若在德国出版，也会被视作“堕落艺术”。1933年6月，在两篇文章中，他证明自己对纳粹的罪行，尤其是焚书以及对侮辱和驱逐作家有了深入的理解。--Peng YuZhi (talk) 09:19, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

近年发现的档案证明，鲁迅在文化事件中有很强的政治意识。在1933年5月10日柏林焚书事件发生后三日，鲁迅作为中国民权保障同盟执行委员会的一员对纳粹德国的“恐怖行径和残忍回应”表示抗议。鲁迅采取行动并向德国驻上海使馆提交了一份官方抗议书，对此，纳粹外交官的态度十分慎重。鲁迅抗议对犹太作家的种族压迫，而他自己的一篇世界文学，“狂人日记”（1918），若在德国出版，也会被视作“堕落艺术”。1933年6月，在两篇文章中，他深刻论证了德国纳粹的罪行，尤其是体现其对焚书以及对侮辱和驱逐作家有了深入的理解。--Wu Kai (talk) 12:03, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Qi Kai 漆凯

因近年来所新发现的文物资料，鲁迅很深刻的意識到和瞭解了全球文化政治。柏林焚书案（1933年5月10日）发生的第三天，鲁迅做为“中国民权保障同盟”委员会成员，抗议德国纳粹“残忍的恐怖行径”。鲁迅立刻展开行动，向德国驻上海使领馆提出抗议（当时该处已经由德国纳粹接管）。他抗议纳粹对犹太作家的压制，当时他自己的世界文学作品“狂人日记”在德国也被看作是“变态艺术”。1933年6月，他通过2篇杂文，深刻论证了德国纳粹的罪行，特别是焚烧书籍、羞辱和驱逐作家等。

In an earlier incident, when he was asked to accept a nomination for the Nobel Prize of Literature in 1927, he refused, not only out of personal modesty, but also because of global political considerations.

他曾于1927年被提名为诺贝尔文学奖的候选人，但是他拒绝了，不仅是个人的谦逊，也是考量到当时的全球政治环境。

Qu Miao 瞿淼

Both cases show a different side of Lu Xun’s Reception of European Culture: He was not just an admiring, importing, translator of European culture who was influenced by it (as seen in his own life and work). Instead, his reception was more complex and critical; he applied universal moral standards, as defined by civil and human rights, which he referred to.--Qu Miao (talk) 15:45, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

两个例子展现了鲁迅对于欧洲文化接受的不同面：他不仅是一位令人尊敬、举足轻重、受欧洲文化影响的翻译者（参见他的生平和作品）。另一方面，他对西方文化的接受也是复杂而具有批判性的；他遵循普世价值观，是他所说的公民权和人权所定义的价值观。

This makes Lu Xun a world citizen, one who cannot simply be claimed by certain parties or nations.

综上所述，鲁迅是一位世界公民，不属于任何政党或民族。--Qu Miao (talk) 15:45, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Quan Meixin 全美欣

'Introduction'简介

Beginning with his earliest student years in 1902-1903, Lu Xun became an important translator of foreign literature (Jules Verne: Journey to the Moon, Twenty Thousand Leagues under the Sea). In March 1906, he decided to give up the study of Western medicine in order to become a writer; to cure the Chinese people’s minds instead of their physical illnesses. During his lifetime, Lu Xun was torn between his hope that he could turn Chinese people’s lives to the better and his disappointment that a writer’s works alone were not powerful enough to actually change things or to instigate people to change them.

介绍

在鲁迅学生年代早期（1902-1903），他就是翻译国外文学的一名重要译员。（儒勒·凡尔纳：“月球之旅，海底两万里”）1906年3月，他决定放弃西医学习，成为一名作家，决定治愈中国人的思想而不是身体疾病。不过在他的一生中，希望和失望交织，他希望能带领中国人过上好日子；不过单凭他的作品，无力真正改变一件事物，也不能煽动人们去改变这些事，对此他感到很失望。--Quan Meixin (talk) 11:38, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

简介 从1902-1903年早期学生生涯开始，鲁迅就成为了外国文学的重要译者（儒勒·凡尔纳：《月球之旅，海底两万里》）。 1906年3月，他决定放弃西医研究，成为一名作家。 治愈中国人的精神疾病而不是身体疾病 鲁迅一生中希望和失望交织，他希望能带领中国人过上好日子；不过单凭他的作品，无力真正改变一件事物，也不能引导人们去改变这些事，因而他对此感到很失望。--Weiyafei (talk) 03:43, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Weiyafei

Sagara Seydou

In 1917, when his friend Qian Xuantong asked him to contribute to the new radical magazine New Youth (founded by Chen Duxiu), Lu Xun responded: "Imagine an iron house: without windows or doors, utterly indestructible, and full of sound sleepers – all about to suffocate to death. Let them die in their sleep, and they will feel nothing. Is it right to cry out, to rouse the light sleepers among them, causing them inconsolable agony before they die?" In spite of this opinion, in 1918 he still wrote his first story published under his name; “A Madman’s Diary. ”1917年，当他的朋友钱选同邀请他为新的激进杂志“新青年”（由陈独秀创立）做出贡献时，鲁迅回答说：“想像一个铁房子：没有门或窗，坚不可摧，而且设施齐全 睡眠的人–快要窒息而死.让他们在睡眠中死亡，他们将不会有任何感觉。哭出来，唤醒其中的轻便睡床，在他们死前造成痛苦的痛苦是正确的吗？” 尽管有这种观点，他在1918年仍然写了他的第一个故事，以他的名字出版. “狂人日记.--Sagara Seydou 3 (talk) 13:40, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Shi Diwen 石迪文

It was a social-critical short story which reached world literature level, with one fictional element placed in a realistic setting (influenced by Gogol and parallel to Kafka’s stories using a similar technique). He placed his hopes on the next generation, as we know from the last lines “A Madman’s Diary:” “Save the children....” We also know that Lu Xun engaged in political activities, starting, perhaps, with his support of the Tongmenghui in Japan and by developing plans to educate politically active students etc.

这是一个达到了世界文学水平的短篇小说，将一个虚构元素放置在现实的背景下(受到果戈理的影响，和使用类似技巧的卡夫卡小说是同类型的)，对社会进行批判。他寄希望于下一代，我们可以从《狂人日记》的最后几行得知:“拯救孩子....。” 我们也知道，鲁迅从事政治活动，可能是从他支持日本同盟会开始的，也可能是从他计划去培养政治上活跃的学生开始的。--Shi Diwen (talk) 14:47, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Shi Haiyao 石海瑶

So while Lu Xun was at first concerned with China, he understood the signs of the times and was anxious to get additional education in Western sciences. He absorbed Western knowledge, learned several European languages and was an important translator of Western literature, e.g. in 1909 he published a book with translated Eastern European stories in Japan. While Lu Xun’s target was the Chinese people, he was very well aware that backwardness in China could only be overcome by learning from the West, especially from Europe.

因此，虽然鲁迅最初关心的是中国，但他明白这个时代的迹象，并急于接受西方科学方面的进修深造。他研究了西方知识，学习了几门欧洲语言，还成为了西方文学的著名翻译家。例如，1909年，他在日本出版了一本东欧故事的译著。虽然鲁迅的目标读者是中国人民，但他深知，中国的落后只能通过向西方学习，特别是向欧洲学习来克服。--Shi Haiyao (talk) 06:18, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

因此，尽管最初鲁迅担忧中国命运，但他清楚地认识到时代的迹象，并急于出国深造，学习西方科学知识。他从西方知识汲取养分，学习了几门欧洲语言，还成为了一位著名的西方文学翻译家。比如，1909年，他在日本出版了他翻译的东欧故事集。虽然鲁迅的目标读者是中国人民，但他深知，中国只有向西方学习，尤其是向欧洲学习，才能摆脱落后的局面。--Song Jianru (talk) 07:37, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Si Yu 司妤

Because of Lu Xun’s extremely critical attitude and his concern for China, the Communist Party and patriots in China claimed to have him in their “pocket.” However, although Lu Xun’s target was China, his measurement scale and means were international universal principles and he was too fierce a protester to be in anyone’s “pocket.” He was active in different political initiatives – such as the China League for Civil Rights (中國民權保障同盟) and the later Leagues of Left-Wing Writers (although some members accused him of being a Right-Wing writer).

Song Jianru 宋建茹

He did not become a member of the Chinese Communist Party, but instead quarreled with Communists ideologists. In 1935, he declined to write a pro-Communist novel. Shortly before his death, he wrote: “Forget about me, and care about your own life – you're a fool if you don't.” In spite of this, the Party posthumously made him a Communist Party Member and Mao Zedong wrote the calligraphy above his tomb.

Denton, Kirk (2002), Lu Xun Biography, MCLC Resource Center.

他没有加入中国共产党，反而拒绝接受共产党的意识形态。1935年，他婉言谢绝写一部支持共产党的小说。他去世前不久写道：“忘掉我，管自己的生活---倘不，那就真是糊涂虫。”尽管这样，共产党在鲁迅死后仍将其算作中共党员，毛泽东为其亲笔题写墓碑。

Denton, Kirk (2002), Lu Xun Biography, MCLC Resource Center.--Song Jianru (talk) 07:06, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

他没有加入中国共产党，并且还跟共产党的思想家争论。1935年，他拒绝写一部支持共产党的小说。他去世不久前写道：“忘了我，关心你们自己的生活吧。如果不这样做，你们可真的太傻了。”尽管如此，在他去世后，共产党仍然接收他为中共党员，毛泽东还亲自提笔为他写墓碑。

丹顿·柯克（2002),鲁迅传记，MCLC资源中心。--Quan Meixin (talk) 11:17, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Su Lin 苏琳

Westernization?

Did Lu Xun trough his Western education and translations of Western literature simply fully supported a ‘Westernization’ of China (全盤西化)? This can be disproven with the following examples: his criticism of Nazi crimes and his decline of the Nobel Prize. His critical mind and intellectual capacities did not allow him simple answers to complex questions.

Only three days after the book burning in Berlin (May 10, 1933), Lu Xun protested at the Shanghai Consulate against Nazi Germany. This shows his extreme awareness of international politics and the nature of societies. 鲁迅是否通过他的西方教育和西方文学翻译来完全支持中国的“全盘西化”？ 以下例子可以证明这一点：他对纳粹罪行的批评和对诺贝尔奖的拒绝。 他的批判性思维和智力能力使他无法简单地回答复杂的问题。在柏林焚书事件发生的三天后（1933年5月10日），鲁迅在上海领事馆抗议德国纳粹，这表明他对国际政治和社会性质的极致认识。--Su Lin (talk) 02:01, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

西化？

鲁迅仅仅是通过接受西方教育和翻译西方文学来支持中国“全盘西化”吗？以下例子可证明这一点：他批判纳粹罪行且拒绝接受诺贝尔奖。他不能凭借其批判思维和聪明才智简单回应这类复杂问题。

柏林焚书事件（1933年5月10日）刚刚过去三天，鲁迅就在上海领事馆抗议德国纳粹，这表明他对国际政治和社会性质的极致认识。 --Chen Han (talk) 14:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Tan Xingyue 谭星越

The reaction of the Vice General Consul in his report to the German Embassy in Peking shows that the German Consulate engaged in counter propaganda and denied the allegations, referring even to their support of the Jewish community in Shanghai. While the world was still asleep, Lu Xun already understood and criticized Nazi anti-writer politics in Germany. It took the rest of the world almost a decade more to “wake up.” Even Nazi Germany’s invasion of Poland in 1939 did not “wake up” other countries, enabling Nazi Germany to conduct further surprise attacks (blitzkrieg) in Western Europe (Netherlands, Belgium, France etc.).

在给德国驻北京大使馆的报告中，副总领事的反应表明，德国领事馆反对这些宣传，并否认有关指控，甚至拒绝承认他们支持上海的犹太社区。当世界还在沉睡的时候，鲁迅已经理解并批判德国的纳粹反作家政治。而世界上其他的国家花了将近10年的时间才“醒悟”，甚至1939年纳粹德国入侵波兰的事件也没能“唤醒”其他国家，这使得纳粹德国能够在西欧（荷兰、比利时、法国等）发动进一步的突然袭击（闪电战）。--Tan Xingyue (talk) 15:08, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

在副总领事给德国驻北京大使馆的报告中的反应表明，德国领事馆反对这些宣传，并否认有关指控，还提到他们支持上海的犹太人聚居区。当世界还在沉睡的时候，鲁迅已经理解并批判德国的纳粹反作家政治。而世界上其他的国家花了将近10年的时间才“醒悟”，甚至1939年纳粹德国入侵波兰的事件也没能“唤醒”其他国家，这使得纳粹德国能够在西欧（荷兰、比利时、法国等）发动进一步的突然袭击（闪电战）。--Peng Yongliang (talk) 14:09, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

副总领事在给德国驻北京大使馆的报告中所作的反应表明，德国领事反对这些宣传，并否认有关指控，甚至提到了他们对上海犹太社区的支持。当世界还在沉睡之时，鲁迅已经理解并批判纳粹德国的反作家政治。而世界上的其他国家用了将近10年的时间才“觉醒”。即使纳粹德国于1939年入侵波兰，也没能“唤醒”其他国家，使纳粹德国能够在西欧（荷兰、比利时、法国等）发动进一步的突袭（闪电战）。--Zhang Xueyi (talk) 14:21, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Tan Xinjie 谭鑫洁

Lu Xun was well able to distinguish between positive and negative parts of European culture, which leads to the question: which moral standards did he actually live up to? The thesis of this paper is that he oriented himself to abstract universal human values and morals. As proof, the following details of Lu Xun’s protests are examined.

鲁迅能够很好地区分欧洲文化的正面和负面，这就引出了一个问题:他到底遵循什么样的道德标准?这篇论文是以鲁迅的抽象普世人类价值和道德为主题。为了证明这一点，我们考查了鲁迅抗议宣言的一些细节。--Tan Xinjie (talk) 11:08, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

鲁迅对于欧洲文化的态度究竟是积极还是消极的呢？这也引出另一个问题：他到底遵循哪一种道德价值观？本文将论证，鲁迅遵循的是普世价值观。

鲁迅能够很好地区分欧洲文化中积极和消极的部分，这就引出了一个问题：他究竟遵循的是哪些道德标准？本文将论证：鲁迅遵循的是抽象的人类普世价值和道德。本文将从鲁迅的抗议宣言中分析论证。--Xiao Ting (talk) 03:09, 13 November 2020 (UTC)Xiao Ting

鲁迅能够很好地区分欧洲文化的正面和负面的部分，从而也引出了问题：他到底遵循的是什么样的道德标准？本文的理论是以鲁迅对人类的普世价值和道德理念为主。鲁迅的声明中列出的细节都真实可考。--WuQiong (talk) 09:40, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

鲁迅善于分辨欧洲文化的积极和消极部分，这也引出了一个问题：他实际上遵循了什么道德标准？本文的论点是他遵循抽象普世的人类价值观和道德观。为了证明，以下是可考的鲁迅抗议的细节。 --Wu Qi (talk) 11:30, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Tan Yuanyuan 谭媛媛

Lu Xun’s in-depth and early understanding of Nazi crimes

On July 11 and 16, 1933, Lu Xun (using his pseudonyms) published two essays against Nazi crimes – about the book burning in China and Germany. As shown by this immediate response, Lu Xun was quick to retrieve information and form a judgment – independent of regionalism and dependent only upon universal moral values.

Lovell, Julia. "Introduction". In Lu Xun: The Real story of Ah-Q and Other Tales of China, The Complete Fiction of Lu Xun. England: Penguin Classics. 2009. ISBN 978-0-140-45548-9, here pp. xxx.

Silvia Kettelhut: Geschäfte übernommen: Deutsches Konsulat, Shanghai, Impressionen aus 150 Jahren, Shanghai 2006.

“鲁迅早期对纳粹罪行的深入了解”

1933年7月11日至16日，鲁迅（使用化名）发表了两篇反对纳粹罪行的文章，该书在中德两国畅销。正如这一即时反应所表明的那样，鲁迅迅速地获取信息并作出判断——独立于区域主义，仅依赖于普遍的道德价值观。--Tan Yuanyuan (talk) 12:36, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Tang Bei 汤蓓

In his essay “The Book burning in China and Germany” (dated June 28 and published July 11, 1933), Lu Xun, under the penname Ru Niu, compares Qin Shihuangdi’s book burning with the one by Hitler. He points out that the emperor did not burn books on agriculture and medicine and instead still accepted pluralism. Polemically he criticizes his Chinese colleagues for not understanding that the threat by Hitler is a threat to freedom in general. Lu Xun directly addresses the German dictator Hitler as “Mr. Hitler.”

Tang Ming 唐铭

In the second essay, “Surplus of Knowledge” (dated July 12 and published July 16, 1933) he compares a recent agricultural crisis in China following a “harvest surplus” and the demand to abandon the learning of theories in favor of learning practical things with the demand in Nazi Germany to abandon liberal and pluralistic education. Polemically he calls the German imprisonment of students in labor camps a “solution to the unemployment problem.” He demands that China get rid of knowledge, insisting that people should become fatalist and opportunist.

在第二篇文章“过剩的知识”中，他比较了最近中国在“丰收盈余”之后的农业危机，放弃理论学习以学习实际事物的要求，以及纳粹德国要求放弃自由和多元化教育的要求。颇具争议性的是，他称德国将学生关押在劳改营是“解决失业问题的办法”。他要求中国摆脱知识，坚持认为人们应该成为宿命主义者和机会主义者。

--Tang Ming (talk) 07:35, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Tang Ming

在第二篇文章“过剩的知识”中，他比较了最近中国在“丰收盈余”之后的农业危机，放弃理论学习以学习实际事物的要求，以及纳粹德国要求放弃自由和多元化教育的要求。颇具争议性的是，他声称德国将学生关押在劳改营这种行为是“解决失业问题的办法”。此外，他还要求中国摆脱知识，坚持认为人们应该成为宿命主义者和机会主义者。--Wang Xuan (talk) 09:36, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Wang Xuan

Tang Yiran 汤伊然

Lu Xun early had studied the German philosopher Nietzsche, who was also pocketed by the Nazis, and wanted to study abroad in Germany. His critical reflection of Nazi German situation shows that he could also be extremely critical against Germany and was able to judge it according to universal values.

鲁迅早年研究过德国哲学家尼采，后者为纳粹收入囊中并且想去德国留学。鲁迅对纳粹德国现状的批判说明，他有能力根据普世价值来评判纳粹德国。--Tang Yiran1 (talk) 11:33, 15 November 2020 (UTC) 鲁迅很早就研究过德国哲学家尼采，而尼采也曾被纳粹骗过，并曾想去德国留学。他对纳粹德国处境的批判反思表明，他也可以对德国极端批判，并能够以普世价值来判断德国。--Zhou Siqing (talk) 11:49, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Tao Ye 陶冶

The China League for Civil Rights

The China League for Civil Rights was established with the outspoken goal to free prisoners from Guomindang (GMD) imprisonment. Prominent among members of the League was Song Qingling (left-wing GMD), the widow of Sun Yat-sen, who broke with Qiang Kai-shek in 1927 – when the GMD turned more and more repressive. The Communists also had massive losses after 1927 and went underground. Lu Xun was the most prolific member of the League.

Wang Meiling 王美玲

In 1931, Song Qingling returned to Shanghai from Europe and headed a campaign to rescue a foreign couple detained without trial by the GMD. I did not find evidence that she knew that the couple were Comintern agents; the campaign did not address their identity. It concentrated on the legal aspects of the detainment.

Wang Xuan 王轩

An early stage of this part of the study including the translation of the two essays into German has been published as “Der Protest des chinesischen Intellektuellen Lu Xun gegen Nazi-Verbrechen”, in: Bulletin of the German China Association 54 (2010) 119 pp., pp. 53-58, ISSN 1436-8048. This first essay was published as Ru Niu 孺牛 [Lu Xun]: 华德焚书异同论 (Discussion of Parellels and Differences of the Book Burning in China and Germany), July 11, 1933, 申报 Shen Bao, 自由谈 (Free Talks), German translation by Martin Woesler as “ Die Bücherverbrennungen in China und Deutschland Diskussion der Gemeinsamkeiten und Unterschiede ” in: Bulletin of the German China Association 54 (2010) 53-55.

这部分研究的早期阶段，包括将两篇论文翻译成德语，已发表在《德中协会公报》54（2010）119页，第53-58页，ISSN 1436-8048，发表于《中国抗议》第54（2010）119页，第53-58页，ISSN 1436-8048。本文第一篇论文发表于1933年7月11日，英文名为《中国与德国焚书的平行线与差异》，马丁·沃斯勒译为《中国与德国图书焚烧的平行线与差异》Unterschiede in:“中德协会公报”54（2010）53-55。--Wang Xuan (talk) 09:28, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Wang Xuan

Wang Yu 王煜

This second essay was published as Yu Ming 虞明 [Lu Xun]: “智识过剩 (Surplus of Knowledge)“, dated July 12, 1933, Shen Bao am 16.7.1933, English translation in: Lu Xun, Selected Works, Übers. Yang Xianyi, Gladys Yang, Bd. 3, S. 324f., 1st ed 1959/1960, 2nd ed. 1964 p. 289-290, 3rd ed. 1980 p. 324 f., 4th ed. 2003 (Peking: Foreign Languages Press), German translation by Martin Woesler as “Wissensüberschuss” in: Bulletin of the German China Association 54 (2010) 56-58.

第二篇论文在1933年7月12日以虞明（鲁迅）为笔名出版：“智识过剩”，“申报”1933年7月16日上午，英文名为：“鲁迅选集”，杨宪益，戴乃迭，Bd. 3, S. 324f.,第一版1959/1960,第二版1964 p. 289-290, 第三版 1980 p. 324 f., 第四版. 2003 （北京：外文出版社），德语版本由 Martin Woesler as “Wissensüberschuss”翻译为《德中协会公报》(2010) 56-58.--Wang Yu (talk) 12:10, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Wang Yuan 王源

The couple Paul and Gertrud Ruegg is also known as Mr. and Mrs. Hilaire Noulens. Ruegg's public role was secretary-general of the Pan-Pacific Trade Union, an international agent for organizing the Chinese labour movement. His secret role was secretary of the Comintern's Far Eastern Bureau in Shanghai. In June 1930, the couple was first arrested by the police in the International Settlement, and then turned over to GMD authorities. See: Jinxing Chen: “The Rise and Fall of the China League for Civil Rights”, in: China Review Vol. 6, No. 2, Special Issue on: WTO and China's Financial Development (Fall 2006), pp. 121-147.

Bruun, Ole, and Michael Jacobsen. Human rights and Asian values: Contesting national identities and cultural representations in Asia. Vol. 6. Psychology Press, 2000.

Wei Honglang 韦洪朗

In the League’s press conference in Shanghai, on 30 December 1932, Cai Yuanpei referred to J. J. Rousseau and said that the League would not be placed in the pocket of any political party. The League was very active in publishing statements, sending telegrams to foreign governments in about half a dozen cases and seeing government officials on behalf of the imprisonment of intellectuals out of political reasons.

1932年12月30日在上海召开的中国民权保障同盟发布会上，蔡元培提到卢梭并称该同盟不会被任何政党所控。该组织表现活跃，积极发表声明，发电报给外国政府（几乎有一半的电报出自该同盟会之手），此外还代表政治罪犯跟政府进行会谈。

On May 13, 1933, Ms. Song Qingling announced her visit to the German Vice General Consul, Richard Behrend, in Shanghai, and representatives of the League – including its president Song Qingling, Cai Yuanpei, Lu Xun, Yang Xing¬fo (Yang Quan) – submitted the following protest note.

1933年5月13日，宋庆龄女士宣布她将拜访德国驻上海副总领事理查德.贝伦德，并由该同盟会的代表--包括主席宋庆龄，蔡元培，鲁迅和杨杏佛递交以下抗议书。--Wei Honglang (talk) 14:04, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Wei Yafei 魏亚菲

Transcription, from Kettelhut 2006 pp. 155-158. Source: PA AA (Political Archive of the Foreign Office / Politisches Archiv des Auswärtigen Amtes) R 98440.

Submission of the protest note to Vice General Consulate Behrend by the Board of the China League of Civil Rights, including the widow of Sun Yat-sen, Song Qingling, the president of Academia Si¬ni¬ca, Cai Yuanpei, Lu Xun and the Vice President of Academia Sinica, Yang Xing¬fo (Yang Quan). Wood block print by Zhao Yannian 趙延年 (born 1924) 1956. Not displayed in the wood block print are the writers Lin Yutang, Agnes Smedley und Harold Isaacs, which, according to the report of the Consulate, were also present. Lin Yutang was also not mentioned by the Chinese press.

转录，摘自Kettelhut 2006，第155-158页。 资料来源：PA AA（外交部政治档案馆/AuswärtigenAmtes档案馆）R 98440。

中国民权联盟理事会向贝伦副总领事馆递交了抗议说明，其中包括孙中山遗孀宋庆龄，学术界的领袖西尼卡，蔡元培，鲁迅和中央研究院副院长杨兴佛（阳泉）。 赵延年（生于1924年）在1956年制作了这些木刻版画。根据领事馆的报告，作家林语堂、艾格尼丝·史沫特莱和哈罗德——以撒并未陈列其中。 中国媒体也并未提及林语堂。 --Weiyafei (talk) 03:12, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Weiyafei

Wen Sixing 文偲荇

The vice consul took the protest seriously and submitted the letter to Peking, accompanied with a report in which he described Ms Song Qingling as the head of the League and listed Lu Xun as “the famous writer” and leading fighter for the “New Chinese Language Movement.”

Song Qingling, about a month after the visit at the Consulate, on June 17, 1933 sent a telegram to “Chancellor Hitler” demanding the immediate release of political prisoners.

For the involvement of foreigners in the League see Chen Jinxing 2006 and others.

Report by Behrendt for the German Embassy Peking dated May 15, 1933, see Kettelhut 2006.

Wen Xiaoyi 文晓艺

The reaction from Berlin was that they should try to influence Song Qingling. The reply from the German diplomats in China was that it had been tried earlier and another attempt would probably be counter-productive since Ms. Song was close to the Communists.

The League did not survive long. Hu Shi won the leadership of the Peking arm of the League. His critical review of a prison report led to some tensions within the League, leading to the dissolvement of the Peking arm. In the end, Yang Quan, the Secretary General, was assassinated by GMD, while Song Qingling received a letter with a bullet in it – forcing her to hide. All of this combined into a fatal blow to the League. Chen Jinxing (2006), however, suspects that tensions within the League (e.g. with Hu Shi) helped its dissolution.

Wu Kai 吴恺

As the most prolific member of the league, Lu Xun’s active, and prominent, participation in the League’s protests shows his devotion to the principles of universal human rights – reaching beyond concern only for his countrymen.鲁迅的抗议显示了他普世人权的原则。

Price, Ruth. The Lives of Agnes Smedley. OUP USA, 2005.

Chen, Jinxing: “The Rise and Fall of the China League for Civil Rights”, in: China Review Vol. 6, No. 2, Special Issue on: WTO and China's Financial Development (Fall 2006), pp. 121-147.

作为联盟中最多产的成员，鲁迅积极而杰出地参与联盟抗议活动，显示出他对普遍人权原则的热爱——仅仅出于他对同胞的关注。

普莱斯•露丝。艾格妮丝•史沫特莱的生平。牛津大学出版社，美国，2005年。

陈金星：“中国民权同盟的兴衰”，载于《中国评论》第一卷。 第六卷，第二期，关于：WTO与中国金融发展的专刊(Fall 2006), pp. 121-147.--Wu Kai (talk) 11:56, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

作为联盟中最多产的成员，鲁迅积极参与联盟抗议活动，显示出他对普世人权原则的热爱——仅仅出于他对同胞的关注。

普莱斯•露丝。艾格妮丝•史沫特莱的生平。牛津大学出版社，美国，2005年。

陈金星：“中国民权同盟的兴衰”，载于《中国评论》第一卷。 第六卷，第二期，关于：WTO与中国金融发展的专刊(Fall 2006), pp. 121-147.--Chen Jingjing (talk) 08:03, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Chen Jingjing

Wu Qi 吴琪

The Nobel Prize of Literature

In 1926, “The True Story of Ah Q” was translated by Jing Yinyu into French. In September 1927, Peking University Professor Liu Bannong suggested to Sven Hedish (member of the Swedish Academy) that Lu Xun be considered for laureateship. Nobel Prize Laureate Kenzaburō Ōe called Lu Xun "The greatest writer Asia produced in the twentieth century." In the 1920s, 1915 Nobel Laureate Romain Rolland introduced Chinese literature to the world. In 1927, he especially recommended Lu Xun and his story “Ah Q.”

诺贝尔文学奖 1926年，敬隐渔将《阿Q正传》译为法文。1927年9月，北京大学教授刘半农向斯文·赫迪什（瑞士文学院院士）建议考虑授予鲁迅桂冠诗人的称号。诺贝尔文学奖获得者肯扎布尔称鲁迅是“二十世纪亚洲最伟大的作家。”在1920年代，1915年诺贝尔文学奖获得者罗曼罗兰向世界介绍了中国文学。1927年时，他特别推荐了鲁迅和他的故事“阿Q”。 --Wu Qi (talk) 11:20, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

诺贝尔文学奖 1926年，敬隐渔将《阿Q正传》译为法文。1927年9月，北京大学教授刘半农向斯文·赫迪什（瑞士文学院院士）建议考虑授予鲁迅桂冠诗人的称号。诺贝尔文学奖的桂冠诗人肯扎布尔称鲁迅是“二十世纪亚洲最伟大的作家。”在20世纪20年代，1915年诺贝尔文学奖桂冠诗人罗曼罗兰向世界介绍了中国文学。1927年时，他特别推荐了鲁迅和他的故事“阿Q”。--Li Meng (talk) 15:40, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Wu Qiong 吴琼

Lu Xun rejected the nomination in a letter to his former student and confidante, Tai Jingnong, with the following reasoning: “There are a lot of better writers than me in the world and they can’t get it.” He further said “I think there is nobody truly deserving the Nobel Prize in China. It would be better for Sweden to ignore us. It would only encourage Chinese egotism, causing them to believe they could really parallel those great foreign writers if yellow-skinned people were given preferential consideration. The result would not be good at all.” (Eventually, the prize was awarded to Sinclair Lewis.)

鲁迅在给之前的学生兼知己台静农的回信中拒绝了提名，理由是：“世界上有太多比我更优秀的作家，他们都不能获此殊荣，”他接着说道“我认为中国还没人能获诺贝尔奖，瑞典方最好是忽略掉我们。如果给黄种人优待，这只会让中国人盈盈自满，认为自己可以与外国优秀作家相提并论。结果并不如是。“（最终，奖项颁给了辛克莱·刘易斯）。--WuQiong (talk) 09:21, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

鲁迅在给他旧时的学生兼知己，台静农的一封回信中拒绝了提名，理由如下：“世界上比我好的作家有很多，他们尚没有获此殊荣。”他又说：“我觉得在中国没有人真配得上诺贝尔奖。瑞典要是不把我们考虑在内那是最好。如果黄种人享有优待的话，只会徒增中国人的自大，让他们觉得自己真的能比肩那些伟大的外国作家。这可不是什么好事。”（最后，获奖者为辛克莱·刘易斯）。--Xu Mengdie (talk) 11:05, 13 November 2020 (UTC)Xu Mengdie

Wu Xiang 邬香

Lu Xun was well acquainted with many famous foreign writers. During these days, he personally met several, such as Agnes Smedley, Harold Isaacs, and Bernhard Shaw. Therefore, Lu Xun had an understanding of the domestic political implications of the Nobel Prize; of awarding such a prize to a national literature which was still under development and had not yet reached a satisfying level. He understood that the effect of such an award would be to increase Chinese egotism. So he sacrificed his own honor in order not to send the wrong signal; in order to not discourage Chinese literature by receiving mercy from the international community, but instead to encourage its further development so that it might eventually reach the level of the “great foreign writers.”

鲁迅与许多著名的外国作家很熟。在这些日子里，他亲自见了几个人，如艾格尼丝·史沫特莱、哈罗德·艾萨克斯和伯恩哈德·肖。因此，鲁迅对诺贝尔文学奖的国内政治含义有了一个认识，即把诺贝尔奖颁给一个尚处于发展阶段、尚未达到令人满意水平的民族文学。他明白这样一个奖项的效果会增加中国人的自负。因此，为了不发出错误的信号他牺牲了自己的荣誉，；为了不让中国文学受到国际社会的怜悯而气馁，而是鼓励中国文学进一步发展，使之最终达到“伟大的外国作家”的水平。--Wu Xiang (talk) 15:10, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

鲁迅与许多外国著名作家相识。在这些日子里，他亲自见到了几位，如艾格尼丝—史沫特莱、哈罗德-艾萨克斯、萧伯纳等。因此，鲁迅明白诺贝尔奖在国内的政治影响，以及把这样一个奖颁给尚在发展中的、尚未达到令人满意水平的民族文学的影响。他明白，这样的奖项导致中国人自负心增强。因此，为了不向国人发出错误的信号，他牺牲了自己的荣誉；他不愿中国文学因接受国际社会的怜悯而积极性受挫，而是鼓励中国文学进一步发展，最终达到 “外国大作家 ”的水平。--Tang Yiran1 (talk) 12:00, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Wu Yilu 吴一露

Biography of Sven Hedin (1865-1952), see George Kish, To the Heart of Asia: The Life of Sven Hedin (Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press, 1984). Hedin was in Beijing in late 1926 and early 1927 seeking government permission for an exploration to Mongolia (ibid., p. 114). Quoted after: Wang, B. [汪宝荣]. (2011). Lu Xun's fiction in English translation: the early years. (Thesis). University of Hong Kong, Pokfulam, Hong Kong SAR. Retrieved from http://dx.doi.org/10.5353/th_b4696908 (in the following: Wang 2011).

斯文·赫丁传见诸于乔治·基什撰写的《亚洲的心脏：斯文·赫丁的一生》（阿安伯：密歇根大学出版社，1984）。1926年年末以及1927年年初，赫丁在北京为得到可以让他蒙古进行勘探的政治许可（同上，第114页）。引用：Wang，B.[王宝荣].（2011）。鲁迅小说英文版：早年。（论文）香港特别行政区波克富兰大学。引用于 http://dx.doi.org/10.5353/th_b4696908 （如下：王，2011）。--Wu Yilu (talk) 08:42, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Wu Zijia 吴子佳

Lu Xun 鲁迅, “Zhi Tai Jingnong” 致台静农, 25 Sept. 1927, rpt. in LXQJ 12: 73-74. See a penetrating discussion of Lu Xun’s international stature and Nobel candidacy in Paul B. Foster, “The Ironic Inflation of Chinese National Character: Lu Xun’s International Reputation, Romain Rolland’s Critique of ‘The True Story of Ah Q,’ and the Nobel Prize”, Modern Chinese Literature and Culture, 13.1 (Spring, 2001): 140-168. Interestingly, Foster suggests that Lu Xun may have contributed to the publicity which eventually led to the suggestion that he be nominated for a Nobel Prize. Quoted after: Wang 2011.

Lu Xun 鲁迅, 《致台静农》, 1927.0925 ，《鲁迅全集》：73-74. 确定了鲁迅在国际文学界的地位，鲁迅因此被福斯特提名诺贝尔文学奖，罗曼罗兰评价其作品《阿q正传》充满着讽刺意味，《中国现代文学与文化》，13.1（2001年春）：140-168。王2011：有趣的是，福斯特认为，鲁迅文学对公众产生了深远影响，这可能也是他被提名诺贝尔奖的原因。--Wu Zijia (talk) 04:37, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Wu Zijia

Xiao Shuangling 肖双玲

This shows that Lu Xun was modest and aware of the global position of Chinese literature, and that he had a vision for its development.这些显示鲁迅很谦逊，其在中国文学的得到世界的认可，同时，他的视野也促进了中国文学的发展。 Who would decline a Nobel Prize? Only someone with principles more important than the Nobel Prize. Lu Xun firmly believed in universal values, against which even the Nobel Prize had to step back. 鲁迅相信普世价值观，为此甚至可以拒绝诺贝尔奖。These principles were universal values, with the aim to lead Chinese literature, as a whole, to world level instead of singling out anybody to let the people further “sleep in their iron house.”

This shows that Lu Xun was modest and aware of the global position of Chinese literature, and that he had a vision for its development.

这表明鲁迅很谦逊，对中国文学的国际地位有着清醒的认识，对中国文学的发展有着远见卓识。

Who would decline a Nobel Prize? Only someone with principles more important than the Nobel Prize. Lu Xun firmly believed in universal values, against which even the Nobel Prize had to step back.

谁会拒绝诺贝尔奖？除非他的原则比诺贝尔奖更为重要。鲁迅坚信普世价值，即使诺贝尔奖也不得不在这一价值面前退让。

These principles were universal values, with the aim to lead Chinese literature, as a whole, to world level instead of singling out anybody to let the people further “sleep in their iron house.”

这些原则是普世价值，旨在把中国文学作为一个整体，带到世界水平，而不是挑出一个人，然后让其他人继续“睡在铁屋子里”。--Xiao Shuangling (talk) 09:40, 13 November 2020 (UTC)Xiao Shuangling

Xiao Ting 肖婷

Several researchers have also interpreted the incident. Foster (2001) pointed to Romain Rolland’s role. Wang (2011) blames the bad quality of the French translation of “Ah Q” by Jing Yinyu as contributing to the fact that Lu Xun was not awarded the Nobel Prize. However, Romain Rolland, 1915 Nobel Prize Laureate, praised this French translation and also supported a Nobel Prize for Lu Xun. Gloria Davies recounts further incidents around this matter.

一些研究人员也对该事件进行了解释。福斯特（2001）指出罗曼-罗兰德的作用。王晓东（2011）称景印宇的《阿Q正传》法译本质量不过关，是导致鲁迅没有获得诺贝尔奖的原因。然而，1915年诺贝尔奖获得者罗曼-罗兰德对这一法译本大加赞赏，也支持为鲁迅设立诺贝尔奖。格洛丽亚-戴维斯还讲述了与此事相关的其他事件。--Xiao Ting (talk) 03:01, 13 November 2020 (UTC)Xiao Ting

一些研究人员也对此事进行了解释。福斯特（2001）指出罗曼·罗兰（Romain Rolland）在其中的作用。 王晓东（2011）认为景印宇的《阿Q正传》法译本质量不过关，导致鲁迅未获得诺贝尔奖。 然而，1915年诺贝尔奖获得者罗曼·罗兰（Romain Rolland）对这一法译本大加赞赏，并支持鲁迅获得诺贝尔奖。 格洛丽亚·戴维斯（Gloria Davies）讲述了有关此事的后续事件。--Deng Jinxia (talk) 05:41, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

一些研究人员也对此事进行了解释。福斯特（2001）指出罗曼·罗兰（Romain Rolland）在其中的作用。 王晓东（2011）将鲁迅未获得诺贝尔奖的原因归咎于景印宇的《阿Q正传》法译本质量不过关。然而，1915年诺贝尔奖获得者罗曼·罗兰（Romain Rolland）对这一法译本大加赞赏，并支持鲁迅获得诺贝尔奖。 格洛丽亚·戴维斯（Gloria Davies）讲述了有关此事的后续事件。--Xiao Shuangling (talk) 09:54, 13 November 2020 (UTC)Xiao Shuangling

Xiao Xi 肖茜

Conclusion: Universalism

Lu Xun was very much involved in daily politics in China and fought several fights with other intellectuals and even the Communist Party publically by the means of zawen (critical essays). For us today, these fights about small and sometimes strange issues seem to characterize its actors as caught in provinciality. However, he was universal – both in his political understanding (recognizing German domestic suppression much earlier than many others and suspecting that even the Nobel Prize could be understood as a tool of mercy towards the underdeveloped nation of China) as well as in his literature. While he wrote literary pieces of the same level as Franz Kafka, he was producing world literature in a climate which was – despite all daily chaos – freer than the one in Germany. 结论:普遍性 鲁迅经常参与中国的日常政治活动，并通过《杂文》公开地与其他知识分子甚至共产党争论过。对今天的我们来说，这些因小而有时奇怪的问题而引发的争论，似乎表明人陷入了狭隘的窠臼。然而，他具有普遍性——无论是在他的政治理解(比许多人更早认识到德国对国内的镇压，甚至怀疑诺贝尔奖可以被理解为对欠发达国家中国的怜悯工具)，在他的文学作品中一样。尽管他的文学作品与弗朗茨·卡夫卡不相上下，但他创作世界文学的环境却比德国更为自由——尽管这里每天都是一片混乱。--XiaoXi (talk) 11:01, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Xiao Xi

Xiao Yining 肖伊宁

Criticism of suspected political motifs behind a Noble Prize for him and of the human rights violations in Germany show that Lu Xun was neither an advocate of total westernization nor that he oriented himself towards the West as a contrast foil for China. He placed nothing less than universal values as the contrast foil to China. True, also the League of Left-wing Writers was a short-lived daily-policy tool within China (Lu Xun himself said, it “may not last long”), but it represented universal values. He also referred to the children. This was another way of distancing himself from daily politics as he pointed to existential and universal ideals like future, hope, another chance and new people who are innocent; not pre-educated and burdened with the past.

对鲁迅的诺贝尔奖背后的可疑政治主题和德国侵犯人权的批评表明，鲁迅既不是全盘西化的倡导者，也不是把自己定位于西方，作为中国的对照。他把普世价值作为与中国的对比。诚然，左翼作家联盟在中国是一个短暂的日常政策工具（鲁迅本人说过，它“可能不会长久”），但它代表了普世价值。他还提到了孩子们。这是他与日常政治保持距离的另一种方式，因为他指的是存在主义和普遍的理想，如未来、希望、另一个机会和无辜的新人；不是受过教育的人，也不是背负着过去的重担的人。--Xiao yining (talk) 06:37, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Xiao Yining

Xie Fan 解帆

Paul B. Foster, “The Ironic Inflation of Chinese National Character: Lu Xun’s International Reputation, Romain Rolland’s Critique of ‘The True Story of Ah Q,’ and the Nobel Prize”, Modern Chinese Literature and Culture, 13.1 (Spring, 2001): 141.

保罗·B·福斯特:中国民族个性的膨胀讽刺地表现为鲁迅享有国际声誉，罗曼·罗兰批判《阿Q正传》获诺贝尔奖，以及《现代中国文学与文化》，13.1（春，2001）：141。--XieFan (talk) 09:48, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Jeffrey Wasserstrom: “All I see Around Me is the Same Old Darkness: Gloria Davies on Lu Xun”, Nov 4, 2013, https://goo.gl/HgqmCe. See also Gloria Davies, Lu Xun’s Revolution, Harvard University Press:2012.

杰夫瑞.瓦瑟施特伦：“我看到周围都是像鲁迅笔下的格洛丽亚·戴维斯一样古老的黑暗”，2013年11月4日，https://goo.gl/HgqmCe。参见《鲁迅的革命》中的格洛丽亚·戴维斯，哈佛大学出版社2012年版。--XieFan (talk) 09:48, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Xie Ziyi 谢子熠

Lu Xun’s reception of Western culture was not uncritical; he was shaped by both his heritage education and his Western education, applying universal standards to the Chinese development - a Chinese man with universal values – a true citizen of the world.鲁迅并非“全盘西化”，他的价值观受到传统教育和西方教育的影响，用普世价值来判斷中国发展——一个具有普世价值的中国人——一个真正的世界公民。

鲁迅对西方文化的接受并不是没有批判的;他受到了传统教育和西方教育的双重影响，把普世价值观应用到中国的发展中——一个具有普世价值观的中国人——一个真正的世界公民。--XiaoXi (talk) 11:03, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Xiao Xi

Xu Jia 徐佳

Appendix: Lu Xun’s two essays in Chinese

智识过剩 虞明

世界因为生产过剩，所以闹经济恐慌。虽然同时有三千万以上的工人挨饿，但 是粮食过剩仍旧是“客观现实”，否则美国不会赊借麦粉给我们，我们也不会 “丰收成灾”。 然而智识也会过剩的，智识过剩，恐慌就更大了。据说中国现行教育在乡间提 倡愈甚，则农村之破产愈速。这大概是智识的丰收成灾了。美国因为棉花 贱，所以在铲棉田了。中国却应当铲智识。这是西洋传来的妙法。 西洋人是能干的。五六年前，德国就嚷着大学生太多了，一些政治家和教育 家，大声疾呼的劝告青年不要进大学。现在德国是不但劝告，而且实行铲除智识 了：例如放火烧毁一些书籍，叫作家把自己的文稿吞进肚子去，还有，就是把一群 群的大学生关在营房里做苦工，这叫做“解决失业问题”。 中国不是也嚷着文法科的大学生过剩吗？其实何止文法科。 就是中学生也太多了。要用“严厉的”会考制度，像铁扫帚似的——刷， 刷，刷，把大多数的智识青年刷回“民间”去。 智识过剩何以会闹恐慌？中国不是百分之八九十的人还不识字吗？然而智识过 剩始终是“客观现实”，而由此而来的恐慌，也是“客观现实”。智识太多了，不是心 活，就是心软。 心活就会胡思乱想，心软就不肯下辣手。结果，不是自己不镇静，就是妨害别 人的镇静。于是灾祸就来了。所以智识非铲除不可。 然而单是铲除还是不够的。必须予以适合实用之教育，第一，是命理学——要乐 天知命，命虽然苦，但还是应当乐。第二，是识相学——要“识相点”，知道点近代武 器的利害。至少，这两种适合实用的学问是要赶快提倡的。 提倡的方法很简单：—— 古代一个哲学家反驳唯心论，他说，你要是怀疑这碗麦饭的物质是否存在，那最好 请你吃下去，看饱不饱。现在譬如说罢，要叫人懂得电学，最好是使他触电，看痛 不痛；要叫人知道飞机等类的效用，最好是在他头上驾起飞机，掷下炸弹，看死不死 ……

有了这样的实用教育，智识就不过剩了。亚门！

七月十二日。

The world is in economic panic because of overproduction. More than 30 million workers are starving, but the surplus is still a reality, or the United States would not have lent us wheat flour on credit, and we would not have had a "bumper harvest".

But there will be an excess of intellectuals, too, and the panic will be even greater. It is said that the more China's current education is promoted in the countryside, the faster the countryside will come down, which is probably due to the bumper harvest of wisdom. The United States is shoveling cotton because it's cheap. As for China, following the example of the west, intellectuals should be shoveled. Westerners are capable. Five or six years ago, Germany shouted that there were too many college students, and some politicians and educators urged the young not to go to university. Apart from that, the Germans is now eliminating intellectuals. For example, burning some books, telling writers to swallow their manuscripts, and locking groups of college students in barracks to do hard work, which is called "solving the problem of unemployment."

China also complains about the surplus of students majoring in art and law. Actually it's more than art and law. Even the number of middle school students is overwhelming. The "severe" examination system should be used like an iron broom -- brush most of the intellectual youth back to the ground.

Why does excess intellectuals cause panic? Isn't there 80 or 90 percent of Chinese people still illiterate? But excess intellectuals is always an objective fact, and so is the resulting panic. Too much wisdom causes either wandering minds or soft hearts. The former will lead to entangled thoughts and the latter to vacillation, the result of which is bother himself or disturb others. Then came the disaster. Wisdom must be eradicated.

But eradication alone is not enough. An education suitable for practical use must be given. The first is numerology -- to be happy to know one's destiny, and to be happy even though one's life is tough. Second, it is the learning of getting points -- we should try our best to know the advantages and disadvantages of modern weapons. At least, these two kinds of practical knowledge should be advocated as soon as possible.

The method is very simple. An ancient philosopher refuted idealism. He said, if you doubt the material existence of the bowl of rice, you'd better eat it, see if you are stuffed. Now, for example, if you want to teach a man electricity, you'd better give him an electric shock and see if it hurts. To teach a person the utility of planes, you'd better fly an airplane on his head, throw a bomb, see if he die or not...

With such a practical education, there will be no excess of wisdom. Amen! --Xu Jia (talk) 03:15, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Xu Jia

Xu Jing 许晶

Lu Xun to Tai Jingnong, 12 February 1933, Lu Xun shuxinji (Collected Correspondence of Lu Xun) (Beijing: Renmin wenxue chubanshe, 1976), Vol. 1, p. 354; Zou Taofen, Taofen wenji (Collected Works of Taofen) (Hong Kong: Joint Publishing Co. Ltd., 1957), Vol. 1, p. 73.

《鲁迅致台静农》，1933年2月12日，鲁迅书信集（鲁迅合集）（北京：人民文学出版社，1976），第1卷，第354页；邹韬奋文集（韬奋合集）（香港：联合出版社集团，1957），第1卷，第73页。--Xu Jing2 (talk) 08:51, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

《鲁迅致台静农》，1933年2月12日，徐迅书信集（鲁迅合集）（北京：人民文学出版社，1976），第一卷，第354页；邹韬奋，韬奋文集（韬奋合集）（香港：联合出版有限公司，1957），第一卷。第73页。--Yang chenting (talk) 03:26, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Yang Chenting

Xu Jing 许静

华德焚书异同论

孺牛

德国的希特拉先生们一烧书，中国和日本的论者们都比之于秦始皇。然而秦始皇实在冤枉得很，他的吃亏是在二世而亡，一班帮闲们都替新主子去讲他的坏话了。

Xu Mengdie 徐梦蝶

不错，秦始皇烧过书，烧书是为了统一思想。但他没有烧掉农书和医书；他收罗许多别国的“客卿”，并不专重“秦的思想”，倒是博采各种的思想的。 Exactly, First Emperor of Qin had burned books to unify thoughts. Yet, books for agriculture and medicine were saved; he had embraced many guest officials from other states and was open to all kinds of ideas without only holding "thought's in Qin State" as highly esteemed.--Xu Mengdie (talk) 02:51, 13 November 2020 (UTC) Xu Mengdie

It is true that Qin Shihuang burned books to unify his thoughts. But he did not burn down agricultural and medical books; he collected many "alienministers" from other countries, and did not focus exclusively on "Qin's thoughts", but collected various ideas.--Zhao Xiaoyan (talk) 07:40, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Xu Pengfei 许鹏飞

秦人重小儿；始皇之母，赵女也，赵重妇人，所以我们从“剧秦”的遗文中，也看不见轻贱女人的痕迹。

People in the state of Qin attached great importance to children, while the state of Zhao emphasized women. And the mother of First Emperor of Qin is a woman from country Zhao. Therefore, we see no trace of contempt for women even in literature which depreciated Qin.--Xu Pengfei (talk) 05:22, 13 November 2020 (UTC)Xu Pengfei

Yang Chenting 杨晨婷

希特拉先生们却不同了，他所烧的首先是“非德国思想”的书，没有容纳客卿的魄力；其次是关于性的书，这就是毁灭以科学来研究性道德的解放，结果必将使妇 人和小儿沉沦在往古的地位，见不到光明。而可比于秦始皇的车同轨，书同文……之类的大事业，他们一点也做不到。

Hitler, however, was different. The books he chose to burn first were “non-German thought”; next were the books about sex, which destroyed the research of sex in a scientific way, leading to a lower status of women and children. Compare to Qin Shi Huang, he was not enough. --Yang chenting (talk) 03:21, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Yang Chenting

Yang Hairong 杨海容

阿剌伯人攻陷亚历山德府的时候，就烧掉了那里的图书馆，那理论是：如果那些书籍所讲的道理，和《可兰经》相同，则已有《可兰经》，无须留了；倘使不同，则是异端，不该留了。这才是希特拉先生们的嫡派祖师——虽然阿剌伯人也是“非德国的”——和秦的烧书，是不能比较的。

When the Arabo people captured Alexandria House, they burned down the library there. The theory is: if the truths of those books are the same as the Koran, then there is already the Koran, and there is no need to keep those books. ; If it is different, it is a heresy and should not stay. This is the direct ancestor of the Hitlers-although the Arabo people are also "non-German"-and burning of books in Qin Dynasty is incomparable.--Yang Hairong (talk) 12:10, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Yang Hui 阳慧

但是结果往往和英雄们的豫算不同。始皇想皇帝传至万世，而偏偏二世而亡，赦免了农书和医书，而秦以前的这一类书，现在却偏偏一部也不剩。

But the results are often different from those of the heroes.The first emperor wanted the emperor to pass on to the world, but the second died, pardoning the books of agriculture and medicine, and the former books of the Qin Dynasty had no one left--YangHui (talk) 05:53, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Yang Yi 杨逸

希特拉先生一上台，烧书，打犹太人，不可一世，连这里的黄脸干儿们，也听得兴高彩烈，向被压迫者大加嘲笑，对讽刺文字放出讽刺的冷箭来——到 底还明白的冷冷的讯问道：你们究竟要自由不要？不自由，无宁死。现在你们为什么不去拚死呢？

Yang Yue 杨悦

这回是不必二世，只有半年，希特拉先生的门徒 们在奥国一被禁止，连党徽也改成三色玫瑰了。最有趣的是因为不准叫口号，大家就以手遮嘴，用了“掩口式”。

This time there is no need for the second king, is only half a year. Mr. Hitler’s disciples were banned in Austria, and even the party emblem was changed to a three-color rose. The most interesting thing is that because slogans are not allowed to be called, everyone covers their mouths with their hands and uses the "mouth cover".--Yang Yue (talk) 09:16, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Yang Ziling 杨子泠

这真是一个大讽刺。刺的是谁，不问也 罢，但可见讽刺也还不是“梦呓”，质之黄脸干儿们，不知以为何如？六月二十八日。

Yao Cheng 姚诚

When we define an academic category like "Chinese studies", we pay respect to the fact that the world historically has developed differently in different regions. Of course the world was far less connected than today, with slow carriers like horses and ships and often bad or risky infrastructure like roads.

在定义诸如“中国研究”之类的学术类别时，我们要尊重这一事实：从历史上看，全球不同地区发展轨迹不同。当然，那是马匹和船只等运输工具速度慢，马路等基础设施经常是破烂不堪或有造成事故的风险，当时世界的联系远比现在低。--Yao Cheng (talk) 14:54, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

在定义诸如“中国研究”之类的学术类别时，我们要尊重这一事实：从历史上看，全球不同地区发展轨迹不同。当然，那是马匹和船只等运输工具速度慢，马路等基础设施经常是破烂不堪或有造成事故的风险，当时世界的联系远没有现在紧密。--Wu Xiang (talk) 15:20, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Yao Jia 姚佳

Therefore it appears on first sight that these regions have developed their culture, their civilization and even first written languages on their own, independently. The oldest evidence of written civilizations, dating back around 3500 years BC, we find in the fertile crescent Mesopotamia with the clay tablets of the Sumerer. A little bit later there is evidence in Ancient Egypt, then in Proto-India and finally also in China.

Yi Huan 易欢

But the more we explore history, the more fascinating evidence comes to light that these seemingly independently developing regions have had more trade relations and exchange of ideas than seems likely bearing in mind mobility: The Silk Road is not only rediscovered and reevaluated historically, but also rebuilt as a political agenda today. 但是，我们探究历史探究得越多，就会有显露更多振奋人心的证据，证明这些看似独立发展的区域，其实早有过贸易交往与思想交流，而且比我们以为的流动性大得多：从历史的角度来看，今天不仅是重新发现与重估了丝绸之路，并且将其重建为政治议程。--Yi Huan (talk) 07:04, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

但随着对历史探究的深入，有更多振奋人心的证据表明，这些看似独立发展的地区拥有的贸易关系和思想交流远比我们以为的流动性大得多。丝绸之路不仅是在历史上被重新发现和重新定位，而且如今已作为政治议程进行了重建。--Lin Xin (talk) 13:14, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Yi Zichu 义子楚

We today find early evidence of European civilizations in America and Asia as well as the Chinese civilization also in America and Europe.

Cultural Science is more influenced by its subject than other sciences, since we are part of it and cannot leave it to examine it. The history of cultural science has developed from the first times of intercultural encounters to today’s life, in which cultures are mixed and people understand each other as being part of different cultures simultaneously.

今天，我们发现了美洲和亚洲欧洲文明以及美洲和欧洲中华文明的早期证据。 与其他科学相比，文化科学受其学科影响更大，因为我们是文化科学的一部分，便不能利用它去研究其本身。文化科学的历史已经从第一次跨文化的相遇发展到今天的生活，在这种文化中，文化是混杂的，彼此理解的人们同时又是不同文化的一部分。--Yi Zichu (talk) 03:22, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

今天，我们发现了美洲和亚洲欧洲文明以及美洲和欧洲中华文明存在的早期证据。 与其他科学相比，文化科学受其学科影响更大。作为文化科学的一部分，我们不能利用它去研究其本身。文化科学的历史已经从第一次跨文化的相遇发展到今天的生活，在这种文化中，文化是混杂的，彼此理解的人们同时又是不同文化的一部分。--Yu Ni (talk) 13:27, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

You Yuting 游雨婷

However, there will always be differentiation between cultures, simply because the trends of integration and separation occur at the same time.

When there is different cultures, there is an interest in comparing these. This medal has two sides. As soon as you start to compare, you may value. Cultural encounters happened before there were experts or a whole discipline.

然而文化之间总是会有差异的，因为融合和分离的趋势是同时发生的。 当存在不同的文化时，比较这些文化是有意义的。这个奖牌有两面。一旦你开始比较，你可能会珍惜。文化交流发生在专家或整个学科出现之前。--You Yuting (talk) 13:41, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

然而，文化之间总是存在差异，只是因为融合和分离的趋势同时出现。 当存在不同的文化时，将这些文化做对比是有意义的。这枚奖牌有两面性。一旦你开始比较，你可能会重视。在文化专家或整个学科出现之前，文化交流就已经发生了。 --Zhang Ling (talk) 14:20, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

然而，文化之间总是存在差异，仅仅是因为融合和分离的趋势同时出现。 当存在不同的文化时，将这些文化做对比是有意义的。这枚奖牌有两面性。一旦你开始比较，你可能会重视。在文化专家或整个学科出现之前，文化交流就已经发生了。--Li Lingyue (talk) 04:34, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Yu Ni 余妮

So the first comparisons between cultures were ethnocentric: You compared whatever you encountered as “other”, “foreign” or “alien”, to your own culture. This was often accompanied with feelings. There was both, the feeling of fear of the unknown and curiosness in the exotic.

因此，第一次文化间的比较是种族中心主义的：你把你遇到的“其他的”、“外国的”或“异族的”文化与你自己的文化进行比较。这常常伴随着感情。既有对未知事物的恐惧感，又有异国风情中的好奇。--Yu Ni (talk) 13:16, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

因此，第一次文化比较是一种民族中心主义的体现：人们把所有认为是“其他的”、“外来的”或者“异域的”与本民族文化作比较。这种行为通常着伴随着两种感情，对未知的恐惧和对异族的好奇。--Wei Honglang (talk) 14:20, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Yuan Shiqi 袁诗琦

You may categorize civilizations into so-called “high civilizations” and “low civilizations”, into “developed” and “underdeveloped” cultures. This was an ethnocentric approach in the age of cultural relativism. Today in the age of post-growth economy and after tragic experiences of colonialization and missionization, we know that each culture is equal and cannot be ranked to be higher or lower, of more or less value than the other.

你可以把各种文明分为“高等文明”、“低等文明”、“发达文明”和“不发达文明”。这是文化相对主义时代的一种民族中心主义方法。在经济后增长的今天，在经历了殖民和传教的悲惨经历之后，我们知道，每一种文化都是平等的，不能比较，没有一种文化文化比另一种文化更高级或更低级、更具价值或更少价值。--Yuan SHiqi (talk) 08:00, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

你可以将文明划分为“高等文明”、“低等文明”、“发达文明”和“不发达文明”。这是文化相对主义时代民族中心主义的分法。人类在经历了殖民和传教的悲惨经历之后，在经济后增长的今天，我们知道，每一种文化都是平等的，没有高低贵贱之分。--Tan Yuanyuan (talk) 12:42, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Yuan Tianyi 袁天翼

While very early there were historians collecting knowledge from travel reports or official delegations visiting foreign cultures, in the middle ages handbooks collected the knowledge to describe different cultures. Even the Romans had words for the Chinese (Seres in the North and Sinae in the South) and attributed to Asian-looking people certain characteristics of behaviour, attitudes, value systems, beliefs, morals and character.

虽然很早以前，有历史学家从旅行报告中或者从政府代表团造访异域文化时候汲取知识，但是中世纪的时候指南书籍都是到处搜集知识来描述不同文化的。哪怕是罗马人也有描述中国人的词语（罗马北方称为Sere，南方称为Sinae），他们还把行为、态度、价值体系、信仰、道德和性格这些特定特征与长有亚洲外貌的人联系在一起。--Yuan Tianyi (talk) 10:08, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Yuan Yuchen 袁雨晨

The first in-depth analysis of the Chinese culture through Western people came not with the merchants, but with the Jesuits. How few was known about China can be seen from the fact, that only the Jesuits managed to clarify, that the myth of the two empires, Tartary and Kitai/Cathay, in fact both were the same (China).

首次通过西方人来深入分析中国文化，不是由商人发起的，而是耶稣会。过去鲜少有人真正了解中国，只有耶稣会设法澄清关于两个帝国的神话，实际上，鞑靼和契丹所指一样，都是指的中国。 --Yuan Yuchen (talk) 09:02, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

首次深入分析中国文化的西方人不是商人，而是耶稣信徒。了解中国的人有多么少，我们可以从这个事实中看出来：只有耶稣信徒能够分清鞑靼和契丹这两大帝国的神话。实际上这两者都是指中国。--Yuan Tianyi (talk) 10:43, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Zeng Fangyuan 曾芳缘

However, the Jesuit’s approach was still ethnocentric and cultural relativist, because by portraying (like Du Halde) China as a seemingly ideal state suitable for mission work, they contributed to subjective views on China.

然而，耶稣会的分析方法仍然带有种族中心主义和文化相对论的思想。因为通过将中国描绘成一个看起来像是适合进行宣教工作的理想国家（比如杜赫德神父的作品），他们对中国的观点带有主观色彩。--Zeng Fangyuan (talk) 10:43, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

然而，耶稣会士的分析方法仍然带有种族中心主义和文化相对主义的思想。因为他们带着主观色彩看待中国，所以将中国描绘成一个看似适合进行宣教的理想国度（比如杜赫德神父的作品）。--Zhang Yu (talk) 13:18, 13 November 2020 (UTC) 然而，耶稣会的分析方法仍然带有种族中心主义和文化相对论的思想。这是因为他们通过将中国描绘成一个看似适合进行传教工作的理想国度（如杜赫德神父），以至于对中国的观点往往带有主观的色彩。--Chen Jiangning (talk) 08:13, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Zeng Liang 曾良

Around 1720 presumably the French Jesuit Jean-François Noëlas even translated the Dao de jing into Latin.[ Collani, Claudia von, Harald Holz, Konrad Wegmann eds. Uroffenbarung und Daoismus: jesuitische Missionshermeneutik des Daoismus. Europ. University Press, 2008. [Partial retranslation Chinese-Latin-German.]] The translation turns out to deviate from the original in the way that we suddenly find the Christian trinity god in it.

大约在1720年法国人让·弗朗索瓦·诺埃拉斯甚至将《道德经》翻译为拉丁语。结果证明，译文背离了原文，我们突然在其中发现基督教三位一体的上帝。--Zeng Liang (talk) 09:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

1720年左右，一位名叫让·弗朗索瓦·诺埃拉斯的法国人甚至将《道德经》翻译成了拉丁文。但他的翻译背离了原文，因为我们突然发现译文中出现了基督教三位一体的上帝。--Ouyang Ling (talk) 14:03, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Ouyang Ling

Zeng Xinyuan 曾心媛

This is the starting point of an ethnocentric tradition to read the self and the own into the other and the alien, instead of respecting the other as a value by itself and allowing it to even challenge the own beliefs. Even the German Christian missionary and sinologist Richard Wilhelm used a Christian language (belief, heavens’ doors, life after death etc.) in his influential 1919 Taoteking translation and in 1925 he translated “god” into the Analects of Confucius.

这就是种族中心主义的起点，即把自身文化强加于其他文化及外国文化，而非尊重其他文化自身价值，甚至允许其他文化挑战自身信仰。甚至于德国基督教传教士及汉学家理查德•威廉，在其1919年具有影响力的《道德经》译本中使用了基督教语言（信仰、天堂之门、永生等），在1925年在翻译《论语》时加入“上帝”一词。--Zeng Xinyuan (talk) 09:07, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Zeng Yanhu 曾雁湖

The missionaries baptized the seemingly “backward” aborigines in several continents, sometimes supported by the sword. A lot of cultures, considered less “developed”, were heavily influenced or even destroyed and extinguished. Earlier, the “Warriors of the Cross” even fought wars and devastated complete regions.

传教士在一些大洲为看似“落后”的原住民洗礼，有时是因为武力的加持。 许多被认为不那么“发达”的文化受到了严重的影响，甚至被摧毁和灭绝。早些时候，“穿越勇士们”甚至进行了战争，摧毁了整个地区。--Fancy (talk) 08:43, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

传教士在一些大洲为看似“落后”的原住民洗礼，有时还得到武力支持。 许多被认为不那么“发达”的文化受到了严重影响，甚至被摧毁和灭绝。 早些时候，“十字架上的战士”甚至进行了战争，摧毁了整个地区。--Yang Yue (talk) 09:23, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Zhang Hu 张虎

The other aspect, the exotization of the other was expressed by the way the first Chinese people who came to Europe were received: They were passed on at tea meetings and gazed at like animals. Soon Chinese goods became the symbol of the exotic. Chinese porcellain and nick-nacks, even Chinese-style buildings were recreated in Europe.

Zhang Hui 张慧

The fever-like admiration of a China image, which certainly was not the true China, is called Chinoiserie. The Chinoiserie even involved European philosophers like Voltaire and Leibniz, who compared China to an ideal country without religion and still moral values, represented by a wise emperor.

对中国形象的狂热崇拜，当然不是真正的中国，被称为中国风。 中国艺术甚至与伏尔泰和莱布尼兹（Leibniz）之类的欧洲哲学家相提并论，他们将中国比作一个没有宗教信仰和道德价值观的理想国家，以一个明智的皇帝为代表。--Zhang Hui (talk) 07:46, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

对中国形象的狂热崇拜被称为“中国风”,这当然不是真正的中国。甚至连伏尔泰和莱布尼茨这样的欧洲哲学家也认同这种中国风这种观念，他们把中国比作一个没有宗教和道德价值观的理想国家，由一个明智的皇帝代表。--You Yuting (talk) 13:44, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

对中国形象的狂热崇拜被称为“中国风”,当然这并不是真正的中国。甚至连伏尔泰和莱布尼茨这样的欧洲哲学家也追逐中国风，他们把中国比作一个没有宗教信仰和道德价值，只以开明君主为代表的理想国度。--Zhang Yujie (talk) 09:27, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

对中国形象的狂热崇拜，当然不是真正的中国，被称为中国风。像伏尔泰和莱布尼茨这样的欧洲哲学家也认同这种中国风这种观念，他们把中国比作一个没有宗教和道德价值观的理想国家，由一个明智的皇帝代表。--Zhang Peiwen (talk) 12:29, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Zhang Ling 张玲

In Europe, the first experts on Chinese culture were entrusted with the task to explain the Chinese culture no longer from the ethnocentric viewpoint, but from a scientific one: Professorships at universities were established. Their early translations show traces of admiration of the exotic. Chinoiserie was also countered by Européerie in China. However, this phase did only last as long as it fit to European politics.

在欧洲，第一批研究中国文化的专家被委以重任，不再从民族中心主义的观点来解释中国文化，而是从科学的角度来解释: 大学里设立了教授职位。他们早期的翻译显示出对异国情调的赞赏。在中国的欧洲人也反对“中国风”。然而，这一阶段只会在符合欧洲政治的情况下持续。 --Zhang Ling (talk) 14:12, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

在欧洲，第一批研究中国文化的专家被委以重任，她们开始不再从民族中心主义的观点，而是从科学的角度来解释中国文化：在大学里设立了教授职位。他们早期的翻译显示出对异国情调的赞赏。在中国的欧洲人也反对“中国风”。然而，这一阶段只会在符合欧洲政治的情况下持续。--Yao Cheng (talk) 14:58, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

在欧洲，第一批研究中国文化的专家被委以重任，不再从民族中心的角度解释中国文化，而是从科学的角度解释中国文化：大学教授职位的设立。他们早期的翻译表现出对异国风情的赞赏。在中国的欧洲人也反对“中国风”。然而，这一阶段只会在它适合欧洲政治时持续。--Zhao Xi (talk) 12:15, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Zhang Peiwen 张佩闻

As soon as the import of colonial goods (and resources) became an economic factor, the (wrong) image of the ideal China changed into a negative one (similarly wrong). Not only mission and belief were motifs to look down on the Chinese culture, but also the comparison of economic development and living standards. 把进口殖民商品作为经济来源会有损中国的积极形象使命和信仰会蔑视中国文化，也是比较经济发展和生活水平的动机。人们不仅会看不起中国文化所弘扬的理念和信仰，也会嘲笑中国人生活水平跟不上经济发展。--Zhang Peiwen (talk) 12:25, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Zhang Qi 张琪

Hegel continued the ethnocentric view on China with his ranking of cultures. Although Confucius already had developed a “Golden Rule” principle comparable to Kant’s “Categorical Imperative”, Hegel declared Chinese philosophy as inferior to European philosophy, and even saw a geographical step by step development from Confucius over Buddha, Zarathustra, the ancient Greek and the Roman philosophy, leading to the European philosophy.

黑格尔通过其文化排名继续保持对中国的民族主义观点。尽管孔子已经制定了可与康德的“绝对命令”相媲美的“黄金法则”原则，但黑格尔却宣称中国哲学不如欧洲哲学，即使看到孔子和佛陀，扎拉特胡斯特拉，古希腊和古罗马哲学这些促进欧洲哲学发展的逐步发展。--Zhangqi (talk) 15:31, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Zhang Weihong 张维虹

A ladder only second by the Arab philosophy. At the turn from the 19th to the 20th century, China was suddenly considered as static, as “the sick man of Asia”. Actually semi-colonialism in China helped to hinder development there.

这一阶梯仅次于阿拉伯哲学。19世纪到20世纪之交，人们认为中国一时停滞了，是 "东亚病夫"。但其实中国的半殖民主义进一步阻碍了其发展。

Zhang Xueyi 张雪仪

Rereading the reviews of Chinese literature in contemporary Western journals, it is astonishing, how disrespectful even men of letters treated Chinese literature, even during a time, when it was not yet available in translation, so that it is save to say that ethnocentric attitude prevailed over knowledge.

重读当代西方期刊上关于中国文学的评论，令人吃惊的是，即使是在还没有译文的时期，就连文学家都对中国文学充满了不尊重，可以说民族优越感压倒了知识。--Zhang Xueyi (talk) 13:32, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Zhang Yinliu 张银柳

This can be proven by the many mistakes you can find in the reviews (Morrison: the book was of low literary quality, but written in Peking dialect and therefore useful as language learning material; Gützlaff: the protagonist Baoyu is a petulant woman; Giles: the words “Red Chamber Dreams do not appear in the book” etc.). Also, the tradition of the title translation as “Dream of the Red Chamber” can be traced back to the origins of the better translation as “Red Chamber Dreams”, sacrificed by Francis Davis finally in favor of the powerful tool of Morrison’s dictionary calling it “Dream of the Red Chamber”.

Zhang Yu 张瑜

Here, the exotic was used to make fun of China. Barrow introduces an excerpt, describing the outward appearance of Baoyu and Xifeng, translated by Francis Davis into English, explicitely for the reason to “amuse the beaux and belles”. Francis Davis himself picks two poems from the novel for translation, but not for its own sake, but to use them as a proof for his own (minority) opinion that the Chinese poetry knew a certain, “descriptive” function of poems in novels.

在这里，这种异域文化常用来取笑中国。巴罗引用了一段描述宝玉和熙凤外貌的文本，弗朗西斯·戴维斯将其翻译成英文版本，很明显其意图是取笑书中的“美人”。弗朗西斯·戴维斯从小说中选了两首诗进行翻译，但他不仅仅是为了这两首诗，而是为了用这两首诗证明自己（少数人）的观点，他认为我们对中国诗有一定了解之后，我们就自然会了解诗歌在小说中的描述性作用。--Zhang Yu (talk) 13:01, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

在这里，异国情调被用来取笑中国。巴罗引用了一段描述宝玉和熙凤外表的片段，由弗朗西斯·戴维斯翻译成英文，显然是为了取笑“书中的美人”。弗朗西斯·戴维斯本人从小说中挑选了两首诗进行翻译，但不是为了诗本身，而是为了证明他自己(少数人)的观点，即他认为我们对中国诗深入了解之后，我们一定会发现中国诗歌在小说中的某种“描写”功能。--Xiao yining (talk) 06:54, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Xiao Yining

Zhang Yujie 张毓婕

In 1815 Macao Reverend Robert Morrison (1782-1834) coined the Western translation of the novel’s title by mentioning it in his Dictionary of the Chinese Language as “dreams of the red chamber.”[ He explained the character “妙” as in the novel’s character “妙玉 Meaou yǔh [Miao Yu]” as “the admirable gem, name of one of the female characters in the novel called 紅樓夢 the dreams of the red chamber”, see Robert Morrison: A Dictionary of the Chinese language in three parts, Macao: East India Company Press 1815, vol. I., 930 pp., here p. 614, left column. 24 years after the print edition was published, this is the first mention and translation of the novel’s title into a Western language known so far. If no earlier occurrence is found it means that Morrison created a translation which has lasted until today almost unchanged.]

1815年，澳门神父罗伯特·莫里森（Robert Morrison，1782-1834年）在《中国词典》中将《红楼梦》的标题译为“dreams of the red chamber”，这是《红楼梦》小说标题的第一个英译版本。他解释了“妙”字，认为小说中人物“妙玉Meaouyǔh[Miao Yu]意为“令人敬佩的宝石，这是《红楼梦》小说中的一个女性人物的名字”。罗伯特·莫里森的词典分三个部分介绍了中国语言，澳门：东印度公司出版社1815年，第一卷。 I.，930 pp。，此处p。 614，左栏。 印刷版出版24年后，出现了迄今已知的最早的对红楼梦标题的西译版本。 如果未发现更早的记录，则意味着莫里森创造了一直持续到今天几乎不变的对《红楼梦》标题的英译方法。--Zhang Yujie (talk) 09:13, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

1815年，澳门神父罗伯特·莫里森（Robert Morrison，1782-1834年）在《中国词典》中将《红楼梦》的标题译为“dreams of the red chamber”，这是《红楼梦》小说标题的第一个英译版本。他解释了“妙”字，认为小说中人物“妙玉Meaouyǔh[Miao Yu]意为“令人敬佩的宝石，这是小说《紅樓夢》中一个女性人物的名字”。罗伯特·莫里森的词典分三个部分介绍了中国语言，澳门：东印度公司出版社1815年，第一卷。 I.，930页，此处614页，左栏。 印刷版出版24年后，出现了迄今已知的最早的对红楼梦标题的西译版本。 如果未发现更早的记录，则意味着莫里森创造性地翻译了《红楼梦》标题，且直到今天也几乎未变。--Zhang Yuxing (talk) 02:53, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Zhang Yuxing 张宇星

In 1815 Macao Reverend Robert Morrison (1782-1834) coined the Western translation of the novel’s title by mentioning it in his Dictionary of the Chinese Language as “dreams of the red chamber.”[ He explained the character “妙” as in the novel’s character “妙玉 Meaou yǔh [Miao Yu]” as “the admirable gem, name of one of the female characters in the novel called 紅樓夢 the dreams of the red chamber”, see Robert Morrison: A Dictionary of the Chinese language in three parts, Macao: East India Company Press 1815, vol. I., 930 pp., here p. 614, left column. 24 years after the print edition was published, this is the first mention and translation of the novel’s title into a Western language known so far. If no earlier occurrence is found it means that Morrison created a translation which has lasted until today almost unchanged.] He chose the plural, which was quite reasonable as there are many dreams in the novel. It appears that 27 years later the plural “dreams” was turned into the singular “dream,” which sounds a bit more general and is therefore also a reasonable translation. Red Chamber Dreams is the most common translation in English and, in its variations, in all Western languages so far.

1815年，澳门神父罗伯特·莫里森（Robert Morrison，1782-1834年）在《中国词典》中将《红楼梦》的标题译为“dreams of the red chamber”，这是《红楼梦》小说标题的第一个英译版本。他解释了“妙”字，认为小说中人物“妙玉Meaouyǔh[Miao Yu]意为“令人敬佩的宝石，这是小说《紅樓夢》小说中一个女性人物的名字”。罗伯特·莫里森的词典分三个部分介绍了中国语言，澳门：东印度公司出版社1815年，第一卷。 I.，930页，此处614页，左栏。 印刷版出版24年后，出现了迄今已知的最早的对红楼梦标题的西译版本。 如果未发现更早的记录，则意味着莫里森创造性地翻译了《红楼梦》标题，且直到今天也几乎未变。他选择比较合理的复数形式，因为小说中有很多梦。 27年后，复数形式“dreams”变成了单数形式“dream”，比较笼统，故也是合理的。Red Chamber Dreams是迄今为止最常见的英文译本，其变体，即Red Chamber Dream，也是西方语言中最常见的译本。--Zhang Yuxing (talk) 02:52, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Zhao Xi 赵茜

He chose the plural, which was quite reasonable as there are many dreams in the novel. It appears that 27 years later the plural “dreams” was turned into the singular “dream,” which sounds a bit more general and is therefore also a reasonable translation. Red Chamber Dreams is the most common translation in English and, in its variations, in all Western languages so far.

他选择了复数，这是非常合情合理的，因为在小说中有很多的梦想。似乎27年后，复数的“梦想(dreams)”变成了单数的“梦想(dream)”，这听起来更加笼统，因此也是个合理的翻译。在英文中，在所有的变体中，在所有的西方语言中，“Red Chamber Dreams（《红楼梦》）”是迄今为止最常见译本。--Zhao Xi (talk) 01:27, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

他选择了复数，因为在小说中有很多梦境，这是很合理的。似乎在27年后，复数“dreams”变成了单数“dream”，这听起来更笼统一些，因此也是一个合理的翻译。“Red Chamber Dreams” 是迄今为止在所有西方语言中，在所有的译本中，最常见的英文译本。--Zhou Luoping (talk) 02:29, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

他选择了复数形式是很合理的，因为小说中有很多的梦。似乎在27年后，复数的“梦”变成了单数的“梦”，听起来更笼统，因此也是一种合理的翻译。“Red Chamber Dreams”（《红楼梦》）是迄今为止英语中最常见的翻译版本，是所有西方语言的变体形式。--Zhou Shuyao (talk) 02:37, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Zhao Xiaoyan 赵晓燕

In 1817 Rev. Robert Morrison published a book for studying Chinese,[ Robert Morrison, A view of China for philological purposes: containing a sketch of Chinese Chronology, Geography, Government, Religion & Customs, designed for the use of persons who study the Chinese language, Macao: East Asia Company Press, 1817, 141 S., hier S. 120-121.] in which he recommended “Dreams of the Red Chamber” as beginner readings, together with the novel Hao qiu zhuan, which was available mostly in English and partly in Portuguese by 1719, and fully in English by 1761. Both were written in colloquial style.

1817年，罗伯特·莫里森牧师出版了一本研究汉语的书，[罗伯特·莫里森，从语言学的角度看中国：包含中国年表，地理，政府，宗教和习俗的梗概，旨在供学习汉语的人使用。 澳门：东亚公司出版社，1817年，141 S.，hier S. 120-121。]，其中他推荐《红楼梦》作为初学者阅读，包括小说《好逑传》，这本小说到1719年大部分都是用英语撰写，部分用葡萄牙语撰写，到1761年全部变成了英文版。两种语言都是口语化的。--Zhao Xiaoyan (talk) 07:33, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

1817年，启罗伯特·莫里森牧师出版了一本学习中文的书,[罗伯特·莫里森,从语言学的角度看中国:包含中国年表、地理、政府、宗教和习俗,旨在供学习汉语的人使用,澳门:东亚公司出版社,1817年,141 S., hier S. 120-121.] 在这本书中，他推荐《红楼梦》和小说《好逑传》作为初学者读物。到1719年，《好逑传》主要以英文出版，部分以葡萄牙文出版，到1761年完全以英文出版。两者都是用口语化的。--Zhang Hui (talk) 07:53, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Zheng Huajun 郑华君

Morrison claims that Dream was written in Peking dialect. This does not hold true, since the author’s family Cao came from the South and many people in the novel have Nanking dialect sprinkles. In fact, the highly artful and intentional switch of dialects and sociolects contributed to the later fame of the novel. Morrison’s mistake developed its own tradition.[ Even in 1995, you could read that the Dreams is written in Peking dialect, cf. Shu Changshan, Die Rezeption Thomas Manns in China, 1995, Frankfurt: Lang, 326 pp. At least Tong Yao, Die Vielfältigkeit der Literatur, 2006 mentions both Peking and Nanking dialects.]

莫里森声称《梦》是用北京方言写成的。但事实并非如此，因为作者曹家来自南方，小说中的许多人物都有南京方言的点缀。事实上，方言和社会语的高度巧妙和有意的转换为这部小说后来的名声做出了贡献。莫里森的错误发展了自己的传统。[即使在1995年，大家也可以读到“《梦》是用北京方言写的”，参见舒长山、托马斯·曼斯的《中国的梦》（1995），法兰克福:朗，326页。至少佟耀《文学之声》（2006）同时提到了北京方言和南京方言。]--Zheng Huajun (talk) 05:23, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

莫里森声称《红楼梦》是用北京方言写的，但事实并非如此。因为作者所在的曹氏家族来自南方，而小说中许多人物也都夹杂了一些零碎的南京方言。事实上，后来这部小说名声大噪，也都离不开小说中方言与社会语言之间及其巧妙而又有意为之的语言转换。而莫里森的错误也延续下来形成传统了。[甚至在1995年，我们仍会读到说《红楼梦》是用北京方言写的。参见舒长山、托马斯•曼斯的《中国的梦》（1995），法兰克福：朗，326页。至少佟耀《文学之声》(2006)则同时提及了北京方言和南京方言。]--Yi Huan (talk) 07:54, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Zhou Luoping 周罗平

Barrow mentioned the title “[...] a Chinese novel called Hung-low-Mung, or, The Red Chamber Dreams” on June 4, 1819, in the Quarterly Review. He inserted this reference into a review[ My own findings, so far not discussed in 20th century hongxue, and published first in October 2010. John Barrow, “Art. IV Narrative of a Journey in the Interior of China, and of a Voyage to and from that Country, in the Years 1816 and 1817; containing an Account of the most interesting Transactions of Lord Amherst's Embassy to the Court of Pekin, and Observations on the Countries which it visited. By Clarke Abel F.L.S. London 1818”, in: William Gifford ed., Quarterly Review 21:41 (January 1819) S. 67-91, hier S. 79-80. This edition appeared (only by) June 4, 1819 with 13,000 copies. The author follows here the argumentation of the assignment to the author Barrow due to the following indications: “Gentleman's Magazine (Mar. 1844), 246-47. The article's author refers to #415 and #438 (including a specific reference), both of which are on the same topic and are by Barrow. Cf. also the discussion of infanticide (p. 76) and Raffles's account of Java reviewed by Barrow in #422. In his Q[uarterly] R[eview] articles, it was Barrow's signature practice to refer to his own works, see “Quarterly Review Archive” http://www.rc.umd.edu/ reference/qr/index/41.html, last visited March 10, 2018.] of Clarke Abel’s report of a journey through China.[ Clarke Abel, Narrative of a Journey in the Interior of China, and of a Voyage to and from that Country, in the Years 1816 and 1817; containing an Account of the most interesting Transactions of Lord Amherst's Embassy to the Court of Pekin, and Observations on the Countries which it visited, F.L.S. London 1818.]

巴罗提到书名“[……《红楼梦》，1819年6月4日在《季刊》上发表的。他在一篇评论中引用了这篇文章 [ 我自己的发现，到目前为止还没有在20世纪的红学中讨论过，并于2010年10月首次发表。约翰·巴罗《艺术》四系列中关于一八一六年和一八一七年在中国内地的旅行和往返中国的航行的叙述;其中记载了阿默斯特勋爵派往北京朝廷的最有趣的事务，以及他访问过的国家的观察。By Clarke Abel F.L.S. London 1818”, in: William Gifford ed., Quarterly Review 21:41 (January 1819) S. 67-91, hier S. 79-80. 这个版本出版(到1819年6月4日)有13000册。以下是作者对指派给作者巴罗的任务的论证，理由如下:“绅士杂志(1844年3月)，246-47。本文作者引用了#415和#438(包括一个特定的引用)，它们都是关于同一个主题，都是巴罗写的。另外巴罗在第422页评论了关于杀婴的讨论和莱佛士对爪哇的描述。在他的文章中，巴罗的标志性做法是提及自己的作品，参见“季度评论档案”http://www.rc.umd.edu/ reference/qr/index/41。html，上次访问于2018年3月10日中克拉克·阿贝尔关于中国之旅的报道。[克拉克·阿贝尔，《1816年和1817年在中国内地的一次旅行和一次往返中国的航行》;书中记述了阿默斯特勋爵派往北京朝廷的一些最有趣的事务，以及访问过的一些国家的见闻，载于1818年伦敦《F.L.S.》。--Zhou Luoping (talk) 02:11, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Zhou Shiqing 周诗卿

He interrupted his review with an excursus on the uniform appearance and static nature of the Chinese, in line with the contemporary China-bashing of Herder and Hegel. For contemporary Europeans, the Chinese appeared abnormally uniform and simple in their clothes and appearance.

Zhou Shuyao 周书尧

They would not be subordinated to the tyranny of fashion; their culture was static. In order to entertain the “belles and beaux of Great Britain,” Barrow provides a foil to this general impression by quoting the descriptions of the garments and anatomy of two characters, Wang Xifeng and Jia Baoyu, from chapter 3 of J. Davis’ translation of Dream.

他们不会服从时尚专制，他们的文化是静态的。 为了娱乐“不列颠的淑女和绅士”，巴罗通过引用戴维斯的《梦》译本第3章中对两个角色王熙凤和贾宝玉的服装与解剖学的描述，为这种总体印象锦上添花。--Zhou Shuyao (talk) 02:27, 15 November 2020 (UTC) 他们不会屈从于时尚专制，他们的文化是静止的。为了满足“英国淑女和绅士”，约翰•巴罗引用了约翰•弗朗西斯•戴维斯《红楼梦》翻译的第三回里面小说人物王熙凤和贾宝玉的着装和相貌描写,为衬托这种一般印象。--Tan Xinjie (talk) 11:55, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Zhou Siqing 周思庆

In fact the graphic comparisons given in these descriptions were simply strange to Europeans of that time, since they apparently did not correspond to the European’s own ideal of beauty. Even in 1842 Gützlaff criticized: “the author [makes] many protestations of his inability to do justice to the subject, which indeed is the only truth in the book […] the style is without any art […] whosoever wishes to familiarize himself with the manner of speaking the northern court dialect, may peruse this work with advantage”[ “Amongst the novels of the Chinese, this work holds a decidedly high rank. The author, after making many protestations of his inability to do justice to the subject, which indeed is the only truth in the book […] Having brought this tedious story to a conclusion, in expressing our opinion about the literary merits of the performance, we may say that the style is without any art, being literally the spoken language of the higher classes in the northern provinces. Some words that are used in a sense different from that in ordinary writings, and others are formed for the occasion, to express provincial sounds. But after reading one volume the sense is easily understood, and whosoever wishes to familiarize himself with the manner of speaking the northern court dialect, may peruse this work with advantage.” ibid., p. 273.] 事实上，这些描述中的形象对比对当时的欧洲人来说很奇怪，因为它们显然不符合欧洲人自己对美的理想。 甚至1842年吉士笠批评道:“作者(使)许多人抗议说他不能做正义的主题,这是在书中唯一的真理[…]这风格没有任何艺术[…]凡希望熟悉法院北部方言说话口气的人,可以详细考察这个有优势的作品”(“在中国的小说,这作品绝对排名靠前。作者在许多人抗议说他不能公平对待之后,这确实是在书中唯一的真理[…]总结一下这个乏味的故事，关于文学价值表现表达我们的意见,我们可以说风格即没有任何艺术,是北部省份字面上更高的口语层次。有些词在某种意义上不同于普通文字，有些词则是为了表达地方的声音而专门造出来的。但是，读完一卷之后，这种意义就很容易理解了，任何想熟悉北方宫廷方言的人，都可以读一下这本书，从中获益。"同上，第273页。]--Zhou Siqing (talk) 11:34, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Zhou Yiwen 周艺文

In 1867, 78 years after the first Chinese printed edition, we find a first real in-depth review of two pages by William Frederick Mayers:[ William Frederick Mayers, in: Notes and Queries (Dec 31, 1867) pp. 167-168, here p. 167. Mayers was Chinese secretary of the British Legation at Peking. He gives also short extracts in translation: “Vast as is Heaven above or Earth below – Sighs may such limits fill for passion vainly past Grieve for the senseless youth, the hapless maiden’s woe ! Not oft is love’s light pledge redeem’ed at last ! ” (p. 167) […] Vain to be soft in temper, mild in ways, Fair as the fairest … (p. 168) […] Not often shines thy longings too are vain ! ” (p. 168)].]

在1867年，也就是第一本中文版出版78年后，我们发现了威廉·弗雷德里克·迈尔斯第一次真正深入的评论，有两页纸那么长。（《备忘和查询》（1867，12月31）中记载，迈尔斯是英国驻北京公使馆的中国秘书。他还摘录了一些简短的译文: “苍苍穹苍，茫茫大地—— 但愿这无限的叹息填满激情的往昔， 为无谓的青春悲叹，为不幸少女悲哀!” 爱情的轻誓终不能兑现!“(167页)[……] 性情温和，行为温顺，美如天至，都是枉然……(168页) [……] 你的渴望并非时常闪耀，也枉然!”(168页)]。)--Zhou Yiwen (talk) 11:00, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Zhou Yuanqu 周园曲

“If it be lawful to avow a feeling approaching to enthusiasm for any Chinese production, The Hung Low Mêng 紅樓夢 or ‘Dreams of the Red Chamber’ is beyond possibility of cavil the work for which genuine admiration may be expressed. What, in English literature, the writings of Thackeray and Bulwer are in comparison with the wearisome and unskilful productions of previous generations, such is the Hung Low Mêng when compared with the works of fiction that have emanated from other Chinese authors.

如果能够依法公开宣布我们对于任何一部中国作品近乎狂热的喜爱，红楼梦将无可挑剔地成为一部最值得对其倾诉真挚仰慕之情的作品。英国文学中，萨克雷和布尔沃的之前的作品与萨克雷和沃尔本人的作品相比显得乏味而笨拙，中国其他作家的作品和《红楼梦》相比也是如此。--Zhou Yuanqu (talk) 09:29, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Zhou Yujuan 周玉娟

manated from other Chinese authors. Human character in its complex variety of shades, the intricacies of family relations, the force of passion and the torture of disappointed yearnings after love are pourtrayed with a degree of skill and knowledge such as in truth suggests a resemblance with the two great master-spirits of English romance; whilst, as in Nature's own drama of existence, the reflections of storm and sunshine are closely interlaced, and the lighter thread of comedy runs side by side with the dark main-strand of a story which opens with the omens of sorrow and is conducted to a tearful end. If, at the same time, a faint – a very faint – tinge of the supernatural is allowed to show itself in the conception of the tale, this is not only in full accord with the inclinations of the people for whom the work is written, but is also far less obtrusive than the similar element which pervades more than one of our own most celebrated fictions. […]” Reading through almost 80 years of reviews, during which more and more chapters of the novel became available, the ethnocentric attitude gradually changes to the scientific one and finally, with Mayr’s review of 1867 to a dialectic one, not only admitting that the Chinese novel was a piece of world literature, but even leaving open the possibility that it surpassed literary achievements of the own culture. This process certainly has been brought to a good end with the establishment of further diversified Chinese Studies in Europe and the USA, with the role of overseas Chinese at American universities, with further translations especially through Franz Kuhn in the 1930s and with the establishment of the German China Association in the 1950s. 由其他中国作家授权。人性具有多种多样的色调，复杂的家庭关系，激情的力量以及对恋爱后的失望和所受的折磨，都带有一定程度的技能和知识，诸如英国浪漫史，实际上暗示着这两种伟大的大师精神的相似之处 ；同时，就像自然界存在自身的戏剧一样，暴风雨和阳光的反映紧密交织在一起，喜剧的轻松线索与故事的黑暗主线并肩而行，故事以悲伤的征兆开始，并以泪收场。如果同时允许在故事的概念中表现出淡淡的（极其淡的）超自然色彩，这不仅完全符合这本书所面向的读者的喜好，而且也远没有我们自己的一部最著名的小说中普遍存在的类似元素那么引人注目。

[…]””

阅读80年的大多数评论,在此期间,越来越多的小说章节可供借鉴,民族中心主义的态度最终逐渐改变为科学,梅尔（Mayr）对1867年的评论是一种辩证法，它不仅承认中国小说是世界文学作品中的一部分，而且甚至没有公开其超越自身文化的文学成就的可能性。随着在欧洲和美国建立更多多元化的中文研究，在美国大学中扮演海外华人的角色，特别是在1930年代通过Franz Kuhn进行的进一步翻译以及 1950年代的中德协会的建立。--ZHOUYUJUAN (talk) 12:27, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Zhu Meimei 祝美梅

During its 60 years of history, the German China Association (next to the developing chairs of Chinese Studies at universities and next to other organizations dealing with China like friendship associations and Confucius Institutes) has helped to overcome prejudices, cultural relativism with diversity and tolerance. This is especially challenging, because the cultures and languages are quite distant and German media and internet community tends to bash China.

在60多年的历史中，德中协会（次于正在发展中的大学里的中国研究主席，也次于其他与中国共事的组织，如友谊协会和孔子学院）帮助克服了偏见，具有多样性和宽容性的文化相对论。 这尤其具有挑战性，因为文化和语言相距遥远，而且德国媒体和互联网社区倾向于抨击中国。--Zhumeimei (talk) 15:50, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Zhu Suyao 朱素瑶

During the last 20 years, the German China Association was shaped through its prolific president, Gregor Paul, who has shaped the prestige of the Association with his sharp and precise analysis of a common logic in China and the West as well as universal values, including human rights, worth to strive for both in the West and in China. His entertaining and informative lectures used a rhethoric often referring to persuasive conventional wisdom, e.g. that differences often come from different opinions instead of a difference of the nature of the things, as can be seen from a quarrel with his wife about what both remembered had happened the day before.

在过去20年间，德中协会是由其多产的主席格雷戈·保罗所塑造，他通过尖锐又精准地分析中西方的共同逻辑，以及分析包括中西方都值得为之奋斗的人权在内的普世价值，从而树立了协会的威望。他运用修辞手法进行寓教于乐的演讲，往往是关于一些具有说服力的传统大智慧。比如，分歧往往源于观点的不同而非事物性质的不同，这点从保罗和其妻子关于昨天发生之事的争论中可看出。--Zhu Suyao (talk) 12:37, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

在过去的20年里，德中协会是由其多产的主席格雷戈·保罗所塑造，他通过尖锐又精准地分析中西方的共同逻辑，以及分析包括中西方都值得为之奋斗的包括人权在内的普世价值，从而树立了协会的威望。他运用修辞手法进行寓教于乐的演讲，往往是关于一些具有说服力的传统大智慧。比如，分歧往往源于观点的不同而非事物性质的不同，我们可以从保罗和他妻子关于昨天发生之事的对话中可看出。--ZHOUYUJUAN (talk) 12:30, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Zhu Xu 朱旭

Paul is a consequent logician and a real universalist and he has added to Germany’s international reputation as “the land of poets and thinkers”. The process of doing more justice to China today culminates in the cooperation between Chinese and Western scholars at international conferences, in research projects or international book projects like A New Literary History of Modern China, Harvard University Press 2017.

保尔是一位相应的逻辑学家，也是一位真正的普世主义者，他为德国 "诗人和思想家的国度 "的国际声誉添砖加瓦。这个过程中，对待当代中国也变得更加公正了，这激励着中西方的学者在国际会议中合作，在研究项目或国际图书项目中的合作，如2017年哈佛大学出版的《新编中国现代文学史》。--Zhu Xu (talk) 14:45, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Zou Xinyu 邹鑫雨

Europeans (and later US-Americans) have made a contribution to Chinese Studies in general. They were influenced heavily by the idealizers (Jesuits, European philosophers of the enlightenment) and by China-bashers (Hegel, the German emperor...). It took 100 years for a Chinese piece of world literature to be recognized as such in Europe. But today, Chinese literature and culture is recognized with the Nobel Prize and Confucius Institutes do successful work in the whole work promoting and exporting Chinese culture abroad.

总体而言，欧洲人（以及后来的美国人）为“中国学”做出了贡献。 “中国学”曾受到理想主义者（耶稣会士，欧洲启蒙哲学家）和批判中国以赢取政治筹码者（黑格尔，德国皇帝……）的严重影响，中国的一部世界文学历时百年才被欧洲认可。但是今天，中国文学和文化获得了诺贝尔奖，孔子学院在促进向外传播中国文化的工作中取得了成功。--Zou Xinyu2 (talk) 09:37, 13 November 2020 (UTC)Zou Xinyu

总体而言，欧洲人（以及后来的美国人）为“汉学”做出了贡献。 “汉学”曾受到理想主义者（如耶稣会成员，欧洲启蒙哲学家）和中国抨击者（如黑格尔，德国皇帝……）的严重 影响，一部世界文学中的中国作品需要历时百年才被欧洲认可。但是今天，中国文学和文化获得了诺贝尔奖的认可，孔子学院在促进向外传播中国文化的工作中也取得了成功。 --Zhou Yiwen (talk) 11:14, 14 November 2020 (UTC)

Volunteer

However, we should not overestimate the European contribution. There are still examples of ethnocentrism, even of religiously motivated reading of things into Chinese literature. One of these examples is the 10 volume History of Chinese Literature published in Bonn. In two volumes, the one about the origins of Chinese literature and the one on Chinese poetry, a German sinologist, who formerly was a priest, defines, that the origin of Chinese literature lies in the dialogue of the author with god.

然而，我们不应高估欧洲的贡献。现在仍然有民族中心主义的例子，甚至是出于宗教动机对中国文学作品的解读。在波恩出版的10卷《中国文学史》就是其中之一。德国汉学家在《中国文学起源论》和《中国诗歌论》两卷中，曾任神父的汉学家对中国文学的起源进行了界定:中国文学的起源在于作者与上帝的对话。--Zheng Huajun (talk) 05:27, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Volunteer

This reminds us again of the Jesuit reading of things into Chinese texts, it reminds us of the attempts, to impose your own culture on other seemingly backward cultures, in this case even the try to impose the Western god on the Chinese culture of a time, when China had a totally different understanding of the world and of heaven than that of a Christian god. The emergence of Chinese literature comes from songs, speeches and paintings, from the wish to document events, family etc., but not from an encounter with god.

这再次让我们想起耶稣会会士对于中国经文的解读；想起我们试图强加自身的文化于其他看似落后的文化上，当时中国对世界和天堂的理解完全不同于基督教的上帝，在这种情况下我们甚至试图把西方的上帝强加于一个时代的中国文化上。中国文学起源于歌曲，演说和画作；源于期望记录事件，家庭等，而非起源于与上帝的邂逅。--Zhu Suyao (talk) 14:33, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Volunteer

The same German sinologist retranslated the Analects, attributed to Confucius, and translated some of the more than 50 occurrences of “heaven” or “demon/ghost” with the term “god”.[ Here Wolfgang Kubin stands in the tradition of Jean-François Noëlas 1720 and Richard Wilhelm 1925, see: Konfuzius: Gespräche. Transl. Richard Wilhelm. In Kubin’s commentary in the beginning of his identically titled book (Konfuzius: Gespräche Diederichs 2011), he justifies his reading of god into the Analects (p. 10). He translates “shen” as “gods” (p. 215) and claims, Confucius was sacrificing to the gods (p. 30), he understands „guishen“ as „demon and god“ or „spirit and god“ and “tian” as “god of heaven”, “supreme god”, (p. 213).]

Volunteer

Experts on Confucius also quote the few passages, where Confucius addresses the question of the supranatural like ghosts etc. and analyze that Confucius may have been at best not interested or even negative about the belief in ghosts, while he was positive about the social stability and peace rituals brought for the people.

This reminds us of the fact, that it is to us to make sure that ethnocentrism is still existing today and that science is a field that needs to be aware of and cautious about it. And it needs courage to speak out against it.

孔子专家也引用了一些段落,在这些段落中孔子探讨了像是鬼魂之类的超自然的问题。专家们分析认为孔子充其量可能是不感兴趣,甚至对鬼魂的存在持否定态度，尽管他对仪式给人们带来的社会稳定和和平持积极态度。

这提醒我们一个事实：我们十分确信种族中心主义在今天仍然存在并且科学是需要注意和谨慎的领域，而公开反对它需要勇气。--Yuan SHiqi (talk) 08:12, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

孔子专家也引用了几段话，其中孔子谈到了像鬼这样的超自然问题。并分析说，孔子对鬼神信仰顶多是不感兴趣，甚至是消极的，尽管他对社会稳定和为人民带来的和平仪式是积极的。 这提醒了我们一个事实，那就是，我们要确保种族中心主义在今天仍然存在，科学是一个需要意识到并谨慎对待的领域。公开反对它需要勇气。--Hu Jin (talk) 04:15, 14 November 2020 (UTC)