2021 Interview with Duan Yuanyuan

访谈提纲 Interview with Martin Woesler by Duan Yuanyuan

(Please compare this with the http://bou.de/u/wiki/longer_interview_version_dated_March_3_2021.)

1 让·莫内讲席教授

段：吴教授您好，非常感谢您拨冗接受我的访谈！首先恭喜您获得“让·莫内讲席教授”荣誉称号，此地位是欧盟对从事欧洲一体化教学与研究学者的最高学术承认！您真可谓是一位欧盟的学术大使！据悉，该项目申请难度颇大，中国今年只有湖南师范大学、四川大学和中国政法大学三所大学获得资助。您可否借此次获奖的机缘，说明你眼中中欧的学术交流呢？

吴：不客气！我一直将自己看作中欧之间的“文化大使”，将这次获得“让·莫内讲席教授”称号看作自己在华学习、工作、生活近三十年的一个阶段性总结。欧盟委员会2020年在全球范围内授予了70个让·莫内教席，且每所大学最多可获一个名额。“让·莫内讲席教授”传统上主要关注欧盟相关研究。现在欧盟委员会把这个奖项授予在中国任教的德国汉学家，说明欧盟委员会已经认识欧盟与中国间合作的重要性。 You're welcome! I have always regarded myself as the "cultural ambassador" between China and Europe, and this time I won the title of "Professor Jean Monnet" as a phased summary of my study, work and life in China for nearly 30 years. In 2020, the European Commission awarded 70 Jean Monnet chairs worldwide, and each university can get up to one place. Traditionally, "Professor Jean Monnet" mainly focuses on EU-related research. Now the European Commission has awarded this award to German sinologists who teach in China, which shows that the European Commission has recognized the importance of cooperation between the EU and China.

中欧人文交流历史由来已久，欧盟成员国中，中法、中德、中英人文交流密切。中英两国政府于1979年签订文化合作协定；英国也是与我国开展教育合作交流较早的欧洲国家之一，是欧盟内最大的中国留学生目的地国，中国在英建立的孔子学院和孔子课堂，数量居欧洲之首；中法两国人文交流匠心独运，自2002年《中法政府间文化合作协定》签订以来，出现了互设文化中心，互办文化年的创举，涌现了“中法交流文化之春”等品牌活动；中德人文交流独树一帜，文学艺术领域引人瞩目，中德相互担任对方主办的国际书展的主宾国、分别举办了“中国8当代中国艺术展”与“德国8——德国艺术在中国”大型艺术展览，吸引大批中德人民前往观赏。 People-to-people exchanges between China and Europe have a long history. Among EU member States, people-to-people exchanges between China and France, China and Germany and China and Britain are close. The Chinese and British governments signed a cultural cooperation agreement in 1979; Britain is also one of the European countries that carried out educational cooperation and exchanges with China earlier. It is the largest destination country for Chinese students in the European Union. The number of Confucius Institutes and Confucius Classrooms established by China in Britain ranks first in Europe; The cultural exchanges between China and France are ingenious. Since the signing of the Sino-French Intergovernmental Cultural Cooperation Agreement in 2002, there have been pioneering work of setting up cultural centers and holding cultural years with each other, and brand activities such as "Sino-French Cultural Exchange Spring" have emerged; The cultural exchanges between China and Germany are unique, attracting attention in the field of literature and art. China and Germany are the guest countries of the international book fair sponsored by each other, and have held large-scale art exhibitions of "China 8 Contemporary Chinese Art Exhibition" and "Germany 8-German Art in China" respectively, attracting a large number of Chinese and German people to watch.

作为一名在中国学习、工作的欧洲人，我一直想对中欧国家交流往来做出贡献。申请“让·莫内讲席教授”项目就是其中一环。申请时，我就在材料中表明该项目的落脚点在于中国和欧洲的比较。通过该项目，我会推荐几名德国同事来中国短、长期从事研究工作，也会推荐中国同事去欧洲短期访学。并针对该项目，设置课程专题对比中欧近来的对外政策，以期激励中国塑造更加完整的海外形象。 As a European studying and working in China, I have always wanted to contribute to the exchanges between China and Europe. Applying for the "Jean Monnet Lecture Professor" project is one of them. When I applied, I indicated in the materials that the foothold of the project lies in the comparison between China and Europe. Through this project, I will recommend several German colleagues to China for short-term and long-term research work, and I will also recommend Chinese colleagues to Europe for short-term study visits. In view of this project, a course topic is set up to compare the recent foreign policies of China and Europe, in order to encourage China to shape a more complete overseas image.

Notes:

的确，我有把自己看作中欧之间的“文化大使”。我把这次获得“让·莫内讲席教授”称号看作在华工作、学习、生活近三十年的一个阶段性的总结。许多西方人认为了解中国文化是一个极大的挑战，对此我并不否认，但是个人挑战之余，我还从中看到改善社会的必要性、提高中西交流和中西相互理解的必要性。个人的学者都为这个大的目的服务。而且这一切都依赖于接触和交流。中国应该有更多的欧洲学者，中国也应该成为德国每一所大学亟需讨论的议题。

Woesler: Thank you too. You're welcome! Worldwide, the EU Commission has awarded 70 Jean Monnet Chairs in 2020. Each university can receive a maximum of one such chair. The last Jean Monnet Chair went to China in 2016. The Chair signifies an award from Hunan Normal University, which has proven to be cosmopolitan and internationally networked.

Indeed, I regard myself as a "cultural ambassador" between China and Europe, and I regard winning the "Jean Monnet Chair" as an accumulation of nearly 30 years of working, studying and living in China. Many Westerners think that dealing with China is a great challenge, which I don't deny, but besides the individual challenge, I also see the necessity for improvement of the society, and of optimization of the relations between China and the West as well as the understanding of each other. Change can only be realized through contact and communication. There should be more European scholars in China and China should also become a topic to be discussed at every German university.

“让·莫内讲席教授”传统上关注的是欧盟相关研究。这次欧盟委员会把这个奖项授予一位在中国任教的德国汉学家，这就说明欧盟委员会已经认识到了对比自己和其他国家的政治/发展模式的重要性。

在研究和讲授中，该西席处理的是中国和欧洲的比较。主席的重要议题是不同的教育体系、社会各领域的专业化和数字化以及对隐私和数据保护的理解。

The Jean Monnet Chairs traditionally deal with EU studies. The fact that the EU Commission is now awarding it to a German Sinologist at a Chinese university shows that it has recognized the need to critically examine other models in comparison with the EU.

In research and teaching, the chair deals with a comparison of China and Europe. Important topics of the chair are the different education systems, professionalization and digitization in all areas of society and the understanding of privacy and data protection.

欧盟委员会正式将中国列为 "战略伙伴"，但同时也是 "系统性竞争者"。中国向欧洲靠拢，也是通过'新丝绸之路'倡议。现在，重要的是将欧盟在巴黎气候保护协定、与中国达成的投资保护协定语和即将签署的自由贸易协定 中达成的共识推广到其他领域，比如在数据法、人权和法治的理解上进行合作。这张椅子可以成为帮助中国学生了解欧洲的接口，并在德国的利益相关者中提高中国能力。

The EU Commission has officially classified China as a ‘strategic partner’, but also as a ‘systemic competitor’. China is moving closer to Europe, also with its ‘New Silk Road’ initiative. Now it is important to extend the consensus that the EU has reached in the Paris climate protection agreement, with the investment protection agreement with China and with the imminent free trade agreement to other areas, for example by cooperating on the understanding of data law, human rights and the rule of law. The chair could be an interface to help Chinese students understand Europe and to increase China competence among stakeholders in Germany.

我不想把欧盟在中国表现作为中国的反面典型，而是用自我批判性的眼光看待。中国学生正是通过批判性思维树立价值观。我曾做过调查，结果显示，很多中国学生认为欧盟的政治一体化还没有成功，英国脱欧反映了欧盟的软弱，但我想传达的知识是，欧盟已经在运作了，只是方式不同而已，即追求的不是快速而精干的决策过程，而是等待、讨论、参与和妥协的过程。虽然欧盟还远未达到完美，但与中国相比简直是天壤之别。

I do not want to present the EU in China as a counter-model to China, but I want to present it self-critically. It is through critical thinking that Chinese students recognise values. I have done a survey, and the results show that many Chinese students think that the political integration of the EU has not been successful, and that Brexit reflects a weakness of the EU. However, the knowledge I want to convey is that the EU is already functioning, only in different ways than China: it is not a fast and lean decision-making process, but rather shows the virtues of patience, discussion, participation and compromising. Although it is far from perfect, it is simply different than China.

同时，英国脱欧正表明欧盟每个成员都有随时离开的自由，这被视为欧盟的特点。所以欧洲未必比中国差，只是不同而已。而当中国学生乐于接受差别的时候，他们的个性就会发展，成熟起来，适合国际就业市场。因此，我很鼓励学生去欧洲交换学习一、两个学期。

At the same time, Brexit shows that every EU member has the freedom to leave at any time, which is regarded as an achievement. Therefore, Europe is not necessarily worse than China, it is just different. When Chinese students are willing to accept differences, their personalities will develop and mature, become suitable for the international job market. Therefore, I encourage students to go to Europe for one or two exchange semesters.

在主持下，我把几位德国同事带到中国短期或长期停留，把中国同事带到欧洲。我可以在湖南师范大学新成立的 "国际中国研究中心 "介绍德国、欧洲和西方对中国的看法。这可能会激发中国更完整的自我形象，也可能会激发批判性的反思。

Through the chair position, I bring several German colleagues to China for short and long-term stays and Chinese colleagues to Europe. I can present German, European and Western perspectives on China at Hunan Normal Unviersity in the newly established “International Chinese Studies Centre”. This may stimulate a more complete self-image in China and also critical reflection.

鉴于湖南师范大学的让-莫奈教席，特设置课程课题，将中国和欧洲的近代外交政策进行比较，以鼓励中国塑造更完整的海外形象。

In view of the Jean Monnet Chair at Hunan Normal University, a course topic is set up to compare the recent foreign policies of China and Europe, in order to encourage China to shape a more complete overseas image.

2《红楼梦》首次全译本

段：您的代表作是《红楼梦》德语全译本，您是如何走上汉学之路的呢？可否谈谈与史华慈合译《红楼梦》的初衷？

《红楼梦》是一件永恒的艺术品，应该提升到“世界遗产”的地位。目前，欧洲只有半数国家出版《红楼梦》译本。1989年我刚上大学的时候，德文版《红楼梦》也只有弗兰茨-库恩的节译本，共40章，只有原文体量的三分之一。库恩翻译的中国小说带有浓厚的德国地方色彩，《红楼梦》也不例外。除此之外，译文还存在一些不足之处，如库恩把《红楼梦》中的“楼”翻译成“城堡”。这种译法也许比较适合欧洲读者的阅读口味，但就中国文化而言，我认为不太准确。这些不足之处也可解释为什么大卫-霍克斯和约翰-闵福德的译本在德国广受欢迎。

A Dream of Red Mansions is an eternal work of art and should be promoted to the status of "World Heritage". At present, only half of European countries have published translations of a Dream of Red Mansions. When I first went to college in 1989, the German version of a Dream of Red Mansions was only a flantz-Kuhn excerpt, with a total of 40 chapters, only one third of the original volume. Kuhn's translation of Chinese novels has a strong German local color, and A Dream of Red Mansions is no exception. In addition, there are still some shortcomings in the translation, such as Kuhn's translation of "building" into "castle" in A Dream of Red Mansions. This translation may be more suitable for European readers, but as far as Chinese culture is concerned, I don't think it is accurate. These shortcomings can also explain why the translations of David Hawkes and John Minford are so popular in Germany.

XX年/契机我开始重新翻译《红楼梦》。也是通过这个项目，我申请到了北京大学德意志学术交流中心（Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst，简称DAAD）奖学金。因此得以在北京大学学习X个月。当时奖学金评审主席是顾彬（Wolfgang Kubin），他后来成为我的博士生导师之一。随后在北京，我多次参观了红楼梦研究所。当时中国红楼梦学会会长的张庆善送给我一本《红楼梦大辞典》。回到德国后，我担任马汉茂（Helmut Martin）的助理。从他那里我了解到史华慈（Rainer Schwarz）已经将小说前80章翻译出来，并将自己的译文交给他，希望出版。马汉茂让我审阅了史华兹的译本。

XX Year/Opportunity I began to retranslate A Dream of Red Mansions. It was also through this project that I applied for a scholarship from Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst (DAAD) of Peking University. So I was able to study at Peking University for X months. At that time, Wolfgang Kubin was the chairman of the scholarship evaluation, and he later became one of my doctoral supervisors. Later in Beijing, I visited the Dream of Red Mansions Research Institute many times. At that time, Zhang Qingshan, president of the Chinese Society of a Dream of Red Mansions, gave me a Dictionary of a Dream of Red Mansions. After returning to Germany, I worked as an assistant to Helmut Martin. From him, I learned that Rainer Schwarz had translated the first 80 chapters of the novel and gave him his own translation, hoping to publish it. Ma Hanmao asked me to review Schwartz's translation.

那次翻译尝试于我具有重大意义，我认为修改史华兹的译本使其达到出版水平比自己独立完成120回的翻译更重要。我花了几年时间修订史华兹的译文，随后翻译了后40回。其中人名的翻译没有采用标准的汉语拼音，而是按照德语书写方式，这样做的目的是尽可能地吸引更多读者的关注，且避免读者出现行文风格“跳脱”感受。 That translation attempt was of great significance to me. I think it is more important to revise Schwartz's translation to the publishing level than to complete 120 translations independently. I spent several years revising Schwartz's translation, and then translated the last 40 times. Among them, the translation of names does not use standard Chinese Pinyin, but is written in German. The purpose of this is to attract as many readers' attention as possible and avoid readers' feeling of "jumping out" of writing style.

另外，我们预计在2022年内出版第五版《红楼梦》，该版本会根据专家意见和自己对原文的理解进行修改。其实每次再版时我们都会做一定的修改，毕竟时代不一样。 In addition, we expect to publish the fifth edition of A Dream of Red Mansions in 2022, which will be revised according to experts' opinions and our own understanding of the original text. In fact, we will make certain changes every time we reprint it. After all, times are different.

Notes： 吴：我第一次接触中国文化，是1987年北京老诗人绿原随诗人和文学家代表团访问我的家乡明斯特时，被他朗诵的诗歌所感动。那时候我还是个高中生。作为一个在保守、天主教、和平、到处有高素质人的明斯特地区长大的，吕原的沉重命运令我震惊。从他的诗中，以及通过与他个人的交谈，我了解到他的经历，一个著名的诗人在1955年被诬陷为23名 "胡风骨干分子 "之一，直到1980年才被平反。所以，既是中国诗歌的美，也是一个民族挣扎在文明现代性道路上的残酷对比吸引了我。

My first encounter with Chinese culture was, when I was moved by poetry, read by the old Beijing poet Lü Yuan 绿原, when he was visiting my hometown Münster with a delegation of poets and literary scholars in 1987. Back then I was still a high school kid. Being raised in the conservative, catholic and peaceful Münsterland with personalities of high qualities 素质, Lü Yuan's heavy fate shocked me. From his poem and through personal conversation with him I learned of his experience as a celebrated poet, who in 1955 was falsely accused of being one of the 23 "Hu Feng key members" 胡风骨幹分子 and only in 1980 was rebilitated 獲平反. So both, the beauty of Chinese poetry, as well as the contrast of the cruelty of a nation struggling to find its way into civilized modernity, has attracted me.

1989年我刚上大学的时候，德文版《红楼梦》也只有弗兰茨-库恩的节译本，共40章，只有原文体量的三分之一。与库恩的其他中国优秀小说译本在语言上几乎没有差别，带有浓厚的德国地方色彩。我也注意到了译文的不足之处。他把《红楼梦》书名中的“楼”翻译成“小房间”。这种译法也许比较适合欧洲读者的阅读口味，但就中国文化、中国历史、中国环境而言，我认为不太准确。这些不足之处也可解释为什么大卫-霍克斯和约翰-闵福德的译本在德国广受欢迎。

When I first went to college in 1989, the German version of a Dream of Red Mansions was only an excerpt by Franz Kuhn, with a total of 40 chapters, only one third of the original. There is almost no difference in language with Kuhn's other excellent Chinese novel translations, with strong German local color. I also noticed the shortcomings of the translation. He translated "Lou" in the title of A Dream of Red Mansions into "small room". This translation may be more suitable for European readers, but I don't think it is accurate in terms of Chinese culture, Chinese history and Chinese environment. These shortcomings can also explain why the translations of David Hawkes and John Minford are so popular in Germany.

《红楼梦》的意义大于个人，是一件永恒的艺术品，应该提升到“世界遗产”的地位。它应该以每一种民族语言提供。目前，欧洲只有半数国家出版《红楼梦》译本。

A Dream of Red Mansions is more meaningful than an individual. It is an eternal work of art and should be promoted to the status of "World Heritage". It should be available in every national language. At present, only half of European countries have translated a Dream of Red Mansions.

1990年我开始重新翻译《红楼梦》。也是通过这个项目，我申请到了北京大学德意志学术交流中心（Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst，简称DAAD）奖学金。当时的选拔委员会主席是沃尔夫冈·顾彬（Wolfgang Kubin，中文名顾彬），他后来成为我的博士生导师之一。 因此我也得以在北京大学留学了，考上了语言考试，入了中文系，读了几个学期的“先当代中国文学”的本科，一致到1992年。随后在北京，我多次参观了中国艺术研究院红楼梦研究所。参观之时中国红楼梦学会的主席张庆山送给我一本《红楼梦大词典》作为礼物。后来回到德国，我成为马汉茂教授的研究助理。在那里我了解到，已经有雷纳-施瓦茨的小说前80章的粗译本。从他那里我了解到，莱纳-史华慈（Rainer Schwarz）已经将小说前80章翻译出来，并将自己的译文交给他出版，马汉茂让我审阅了莱纳-史华兹的译本。不过译文暂未达到出版质量，还需修订，之前已经有好几家出版社都拒绝了发表。

In 1990 I began to retranslate "A Dream of Red Mansions". It was also through this project that I applied for a scholarship from Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst (DAAD) of Peking University. So I was able to study at Peking University for X months. At that time, the chairman of the selection committee was Wolfgang Kubin (Chinese name Gu Bin), who later became one of my doctoral supervisors. Later in Beijing, I visited the Dream of Red Mansions Research Institute many times. During the visit, the president of the Hongloumeng Studies Society Zhang Qingshan gave me a dictionary of a Dream of Red Mansions. Later, when I returned to Germany, I cooperated with Helmut Martin. I learned from him that Rainer Schwarz had translated the first 80 chapters of the novel and gave him his own translation for publication. Helmut Martin asked me to review Rainer Schwartz's translation. However, the translation has not yet reached the publishing quality and needed to be revised, several publishing houses had already refused to publish the translation.

但是，这次翻译尝试具有历史意义，我觉得修改和出版比完成自己的120章翻译更重要。于是我把我的译本搁置起来， 对莱纳-施瓦茨先生的译本进行了几年的修改，然后按照前80章的风格重新修改了我120章译本的后40章（适应非标准音译，而不是按意思翻译人名等），尽量让读者有一个完整的阅读流程。

However, this translation attempt had historical significance and I felt that the revision and publication was more important than the completion of my own 120 chapter translation. So I put my translation on the back burner, revised Mr. Schwarz’s translation for several years, and then reworked the last 40 chapters of my 120-chapter translation according to the style of the first 80 chapters (adapting to non-standard phonetic transcription instead of translating names by meanings, etc.). The purpose of this is to attract more readers' attention as much as possible, and to avoid readers' feeling of "jumping" in writing style.

现在，暂时有一个仔细、完整的翻译，并有解释。之后的计划是在2022年内会出版第五版，该版本会根据很多专家意见和自己对原文的重新理解再进行改进。原来我把我的翻译按照前80回的翻译风格改变了（比如把我按意思翻译的人名按前80回靠近德语的发音改了）和按照敏福德的交际的翻译方法（比如贾宝玉跟他祖母说话的时候把“”翻译成“奶奶”）。在第二个版本的时候我已经编辑进去了所有的翻译同事推荐要改善的地方，当然每个地方我自己决定改变还是不改变，如果要改变要改成具体的哪些字。我觉得最重要是读者得到最理想的翻译，不要因为自己选过莫一种说法就要坚持不改变。我觉得素质高的人可以承认他们犯了错。当然，翻译有权利自己决定怎么翻译。有的时候把苹果要翻译成李子，比如目的文化没有苹果还是李子的角色就是原来的文化的苹果。这样，豪克斯也把《红楼梦》里面的红翻译成绿。但是我觉得有一个限制：如果翻译家选了一个在这个上下文特别少用的一个次要含义，但是有更合适的主要含义，那应该有愿意改。不要因为骄傲就坚持自己的不那么好的翻译法。歌德算一个天才。但是他的《流浪者的夜歌》他改了好几遍。这个说明歌德不是天才吗？我觉得他因为能承认自己可以做得更好才是天才。

比如在我未出版的120章全译本中，很多人名的翻译也考虑到了名字的中文含义。[What amendments will you make in the fifth edition of the Chamber? Could you please list some? ]

现在，暂时有了仔细、完整的译文和解释。也许在2021年内，可以出版第五版，会根据同仁们的意见和自己对原文的重新理解进行改进。

我把原文重新读了一遍，每句重新考虑怎么翻译。我这一次靠原文靠的近一点，比如把贾宝玉跟他祖母的称呼法按照原文翻译了。当然这个会给当代西方读者一种陌生感，但是会多给他提供一种原文的味儿。

比如我未出版的120章全译本中（有可能在将来也要单独的发表），很多人名的翻译也考虑到了人名的中文含义。

Now, for the time being, a careful, complete translation with explanations is available. Maybe within 2021, the fifth edition can be published, which will be improved according to colleagues' opinions and their own re-understanding of the original text. For example, in my unpublished full translation of 120 chapters, the translation of many names also takes into account the Chinese meaning of names. [What amendments will you make in the fifth edition of the Chamber? Could you please list some? ]

3 欧洲红学

段：您曾在国内红学权威刊物《红楼梦学刊》上发表过三篇文章，以德国人的视角叙述西方对《红楼梦》的了解，并介绍德译本情况以及西方学者的理解及评价。从这三篇文章可以看出，《红楼梦》在西方的传播已变换形式，由文本本身的传播向舞台剧等多模态形态发展。请问现今欧洲的红学研究、传播现状如何？您认为《红楼梦》对国内外读者有何影响？

You have published three articles in the Journal of Dreams of the Red Chamber, an authoritative journal of red studies in China, describing the Western understanding of Dreams of the Red Chamber from a German perspective, and introducing the German translation as well as the understanding and evaluation of Western scholars. From these three articles, we can see that the dissemination of Dream of the Red Chamber in the West has changed from the text itself to a multimodal form, such as a stage play. What is the current status of the study and dissemination of Redology in Europe?

小说是“时代精神”的体现。《红楼梦》于1791年首次出版，其创作背景设置在满族统治下的清朝，曹家或受康熙宠信或备受雍正冷落以致抄家没落。囿于时代背景，作者在当时无法公开批判帝制皇权，但在小说中，三大家庭日益衰败，家族的荣耀和家产无法承继，作者开始寻求被迫害的根源。这种对名家望族没落之路的描写使我们想起了契诃夫的小说。此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的纪实性历史小说《铁皮鼓》(1959年)非常相似。最值得一提的是《红楼梦》和托马斯·曼的《布登勃洛克一家》（1901年）。两部小说都描写了出生富贵的年轻一代人的颓废、没落、溃散，以及一个家族的社会地位和经济状况的逐渐没落与覆灭。托马斯·曼的小说是以资产阶级社会的巨大变革为背景，而曹雪芹的作品则选取了某个朝代的更迭时期作为时代背景，在其中帝王利益与家族利益发生了冲突。有趣的是，两部作品中的主要角色都挑选了英年早逝的类似人物。《红楼梦》里林黛玉为情而亡，秦可卿因乱伦自尽，贾元春和妙玉也是突然死亡。在《布登勃洛克一家》里克拉拉在婚后不久即死于脑结核，托马斯在牙科手术后去世，汉诺死于伤寒。两部作品都在结构和主题上运用了影射等大量的艺术手法，以丰富的故事进展描绘出一幅衰败的景象。因此，这种并行发展令人惊讶，很难说《布登勃洛克一家》的创作没受到《红楼梦》的影响。

The novel is the embodiment of "the spirit of the times". A Dream of Red Mansions was first published in 1791, and its creative background was set in the Qing Dynasty under Manchu rule. The Cao family was favored by Kangxi or neglected by Yongzheng, resulting in the decline of property ownership. Constrained by the background of the times, the author could not openly criticize the imperial power at that time, but in the novel, the three big families were declining day by day, and the glory and property of the family could not be inherited, so the author began to seek the root of persecution. This description of the decline of famous families reminds us of Chekhov's novels. In addition, the detailed description of the life of all social strata in the early Qing Dynasty in A Dream of Red Mansions is very similar to Gunter Grass's documentary historical novel Tin Drum (1959). The most noteworthy ones are A Dream of Red Mansions and Thomas Mann's Budenbrock Family (1901). Both novels describe the decadence, decline and collapse of the wealthy young generation, as well as the gradual decline and collapse of a family's social status and economic situation. Thomas Mann's novels are set against the background of great changes in bourgeois society, while Cao Xueqin's works choose the change period of a certain dynasty as the background of the times, in which the interests of emperors and families conflict. Interestingly, the main characters in the two works have chosen similar characters who died young. In a Dream of Red Mansions, Lin Daiyu died of love, Qin Keqing committed suicide due to incest, and Jia Yuanchun and Miaoyu also died suddenly. In the Budenbrock Family, Clara died of brain tuberculosis shortly after marriage, Thomas died after dental surgery, and Hanno died of typhoid fever. Both works use a lot of artistic techniques such as innuendo in structure and theme, and depict a declining scene with rich story progress. Therefore, this parallel development is surprising. It is hard to say that the creation of the Budenbroc Family was not influenced by a Dream of Red Mansions.

Notes：

吴：最重要的是，我想还没有译本的另一半欧洲国家也会有译本。再有就是西方尤其是美国对《红楼梦》的研究，用现代的理论来关注小说的一些重要方面，比如 "感情"、"同性恋"等。每隔几年就会有一次HLM会议。在这里，整理一下以前的研究，写一部西方学者参与小说的历史是很重要的。

Most importantly, I think that the other half of European countries that do not yet have a translation will also get one. Then there is HLM research in the West, especially in the U.S., which uses modern theories to focus on some important aspects of the novel, such as “feeling, homosexuality, etc”. Every few years there is an HLM conference. Here it would be important to compile previous research and write a history of scholarly engagement with the novel in the West.

《红楼梦》应该成为世界文化遗产。西方的读者也有自己与小说的关系。对主人公的认同尽管有文化和历史的距离，但还是能跨越空间和时间的距离。

The Dream of the Red Chamber should become a world cultural heritage. Readers in the West also have their own relationship to the novel. Identification with the hero works despite the cultural and historical distance, the distance can get across space and time.

我对小说在西方的接受情况进行了开创性的研究。在这样做的过程中，我证明了这部小说的传播速度非常快，包括在节选翻译中，但这并没有获得世界文学在西方的认可，直到76年后，它在中国出版，48年后，它的第一个节选翻译在欧洲。这一方面是因为完整的译本需要很长时间才能问世，另一方面是因为许多西方汉学家、文化中介和翻译家的民族中心主义世界观。

I conducted a pioneering study on the reception of the novel in the West. In doing so, I demonstrated that the novel spread very quickly, including in excerpt translations, but that did not gain recognition as world literature in the West until 76 years after its publication in China and 48 years after its first excerpt translations in Europe. This was partly because it took a long time for complete translations to become available, and partly because of the ethnocentric worldview of many Western sinologists, cultural mediators, and translators.

近来，对《红楼梦》的翻译也有研究，但遗憾的是往往是中国学者没有与西方学者交流。为了在这里达到更高的质量，中国同事的成果在发表前应该由他们必不可少的同事审阅。无论如何，无论在中国还是在西方，小说的跨文化研究都是一个新的领域。

Recently, translations of the novel have also been studied, but unfortunately often by Chinese scholars without exchange with Western scholars. In order to achieve higher quality here, Chinese colleagues should have their results reviewed by their essential colleagues before publication. In any case, a new field, both in China and in the West, is cross-cultural studies on the novel.

欧洲红学经常从自己的文化背景通过比较文学和跨国文化的角度来理解《红楼梦》。最近几百年，长片小说在中国和在欧洲都是“时代精神”的体现。《红楼梦》于1791年首次出版，其创作背景是中国少数民族之一的满族统治下的清朝，曹家或受康熙宠信或备受雍正冷落以致抄家没落。囿于时代背景，作者在当时无法公开批判帝制皇权，但在小说中，他在家庭日益衰败（从事道教、闲暇、诗歌创作、艺术和音乐，而不是为了能够谋生而学习）和自己没有实现作为家族继承人的期望中，寻求被迫害的根源。这种对名家望族没落之路的描写使我们想起了契诃夫的小说。此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的纪实性历史小说《铁皮鼓》(1959年)非常相似。最值得一提的是《红楼梦》和托马斯·曼的《布登勃洛克一家》（1901年）。两部小说都描写了出生富贵的年轻一代人的颓废、没落、溃散，以及一个家族的社会地位和经济状况的逐渐没落与覆灭。托马斯·曼的小说是以资产阶级社会的巨大变革为背景，而曹雪芹的作品则选取了某个朝代的更迭时期作为时代背景，在其中帝王利益与家族利益发生了冲突! 有趣的是，两部作品中的主要角色都挑选了英年早逝的类似人物。《红楼梦》里林黛玉为情而亡，秦可卿因跟她丈夫的父亲做爱自尽，贾元春和妙玉也是突然死亡。在《布登勃洛克一家》里克拉拉在婚后不久即死于脑结核，托马斯在牙科手术后去世，汉诺死于伤寒。两部作品都在结构和主题上运用了影射等大量的艺术手法，以丰富的故事进展描绘出一幅衰败的景象。因此，这种并行发展令人惊讶，很难说《布登勃洛克一家》的创作没受到《红楼梦》的影响。

European Redology often understands The Dream of the Red Chamber from its own cultural background through a comparative literary and transnational cultural perspective. During the last few hundred years, novels in China and Europe are the embodiment of "the spirit of the times". A Dream of Red Mansions was first published in 1791. Its creation background was the Qing Dynasty under the rule of Manchu, one of China's ethnic minorities. The Cao family was either favored by Kangxi or neglected by Yongzheng, resulting in the decline of property ownership. Constrained by the background of the times, the author could not publicly criticize the imperial power at that time, but in the novel, he sought the root of persecution in the declining family (engaged in Taoism, leisure, poetry creation, art and music, instead of studying in order to make a living) and his failure to realize his expectation of being the heir of the family. This decadent description of declining families reminds us of Chekhov's novels. In addition, the detailed description of the life of all social strata in the early Qing Dynasty in A Dream of Red Mansions is very similar to Gunter Grass's documentary historical novel Tin Drum (1959). The most noteworthy ones are A Dream of Red Mansions and Thomas Mann's Budenbrock Family (1901). Both novels describe the decadence, decline and collapse of the wealthy young generation, as well as the gradual decline and collapse of a family's social status and economic situation. Thomas Mann's novels are set against the background of great changes in bourgeois society, while Cao Xueqin's works choose the change period of a certain dynasty as the background of the times, in which the interests of emperors and families conflict! Interestingly, the main characters in the two works have chosen similar characters who died young. In a Dream of Red Mansions, Lin Daiyu died of love, Qin Keqing committed suicide due to sex with her husband's father, and Jia Yuanchun and Miaoyu also died suddenly. In the Budenbrock Family, Clara died of brain tuberculosis shortly after marriage, Thomas died after dental surgery, and Hanno died of typhoid fever. Both works use a lot of artistic techniques such as innuendo in structure and theme, and depict a declining scene with rich story progress. Therefore, this parallel development is surprising. It is hard to say that the creation of the Budenbrook Family was not influenced by a Dream of Red Mansions.

4.现今欧洲汉学

段：您曾在欧洲多所学校任教，请问现今欧洲汉学的研究状况如何？

You have taught in many European schools. What is the current research status of Sinology in Europe?

吴：有时我也会想一想

I think, to evaluate European Sinology, one should look at the history, at the conferences, ongoing research projects, publications, like "European Journal of Sinology", "European Journal of Chinese Studies" and institutions.

Sometimes I think about the question, if there is Sinology in Europe at all. At other times, I doubt if there is Sinology outside of Europe. At least we can see from genetic evidence, that there was early exchange of domesticated crops and animals as well as culture between China and the Middle East as well as between the Middle East and Europe. Later, the Roman Empire started diplomatic contacts with Han# Empire and soon after we have European merchants arriving in China. Although the main population in Europe stayed ethnocentric for a long time, and founded its knowledge on compendium like #, among those early merchants the first experts changed the view on the Chinese culture towards a more fact-based one, prepared the ground for missionaries, who described China in much more detail and paved the way for the first scholarly experts, who changed the perception towards a scientific one, based on observations, explorations, analysis and interpretation.

Scholarship on China in Europe started with single experts like merchants and missionaries, who often learned the language and travelled to China. It was institutionalized with the first language schools. Later, the first chairs for professors of Chinese Studies were established. Today, we have more than 200 Professors of Chinese Studies in the United States (most of them Professors of History or Language), a growing number of them are US citizens of Chinese heritage or even Chinese citizens. In Europe, France seems to be the country with the most high schools and colleges where Chinese is taught as a foreign language. However, the English and German speaking countries seems to be the regions with the most Chinese Studies professors, often specializing in Traditional Literature, Modern Literature, Philosophy, History, Politics or Economy. A major difference exists between modern and traditional Chinese Studies. Since "Chinese Studies" sounds exotic, it is often considered area studies or people have a double qualification as sociologists, anthropologists, linguists, scholars of letter etc. Therefore, it is difficult to count the number of professorships, but they may range up to 20 in the German-speaking countries and # in Great Britain.

When we evaluate European Sinology, we have to come to terms with the past. For a long time, starting with philosophers in the 18th century, China was idealized or demonized. However, even after Western scholarship claimed the monopoly to interpret China, it tried to explain the so-called "stagnation" of Chinese society with "Confucianism" or with genetical/nutritional reasons. Often it were the same sinologists, who then, after China proved them wrong with its economical boom, again found the reason for this development in "Confucianism". Similarly, a lot of Western sinologists in the 1960s demonstrated in Western streets with Mao's "red bible" in their hands. Both times, science and scholarship was mislead by a certain expectation or single-sided understanding of China. To project one's own expectation from someone else upon him is called "ethnocentrism". International Chinese Studies has to admit that it had committed mistakes in the past as a first step to actually write something substantial in the book of the exploration of China. Of course, not just Western Chinese Studies is to be blamed to have committed mistakes. Chinese China Studies (guoxue) was and partly is also affected by these expectations and projections caused by chauvinism and cultural relativism. A first step for Chinese China Studies would be to learn more languages, like Japanese and English, in order to be able to see their own culture through the mirror of the foreign perception.

Main contributions of European Sinology in the past were: ...#

Main contributions today concentrate on the specializations of the chairs, like ...#

5 为何从古典文学的翻译转向中国现当代文学的翻译？

段：除了《红楼梦》这一代表译作之外，您还翻译了包括鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱锺书、韩少功、贾平凹等在内的一批著名作家的优秀作品。可否谈谈为什么选择不同时代作家的作品？您又是如何再现他们不同的写作风格？

This question intends to know about why you choose to translate works of those writers. Is it because of personal interests or the publisher asking you to do so? I think the section of Xu Zechen serves as good interview answers. As Chinese readers, we are desperate to know what things are like from Westerners’ perspective.

为何从古典文学的翻译转向中国现当代文学的翻译？

Why did you shift from the translation of classical literature to the translation of modern and contemporary Chinese literature?

吴：不同时代的作品反映出不同的时代背景，这些作品对我个人而言是很好的窗口，可以窥探不同时期中国的社会面貌，还可与同期的欧洲文学进行比较。贾平凹作为20世纪80年代以来中国最伟大的作家之一，英译本很少。究其原因，首先在于他的作品植根于山西农村，带有浓重的地域风俗习惯。首先读懂原文对译者来说就是一项挑战，更不用提在译入语中找到对应的表达。我在翻译贾平凹的XX中就遇到了这个问题。。。。。。。。[Can you list some difficulties when translating Jia Pingwa’s or any other author’s works? We like the details.]

The works of different times reflect different backgrounds of the times. These works are a good window for me personally. I can spy on the social outlook of China in different periods and compare them with European literature in the same period. Jia Pingwa, as one of the greatest writers in China since 1980s, has few English versions. The reason lies in the fact that his works are rooted in Shanxi rural areas and have strong regional customs. It is a challenge for translators to understand the original text first, not to mention finding the corresponding expression in the target language. I encountered this problem in translating Jia Pingwa's XX. . . . . . . .

对于译者来说，翻译不同作者的作品时面对的翻译难点不同。而不同的译者有着不同的处理方式，这也能解释为何同一部作品有几个翻译版本，且翻译策略各有不同。我深知译者的文化背景对译本翻译策略的选择有很大影响，所以有些作品即便存在译本，我还是选择重新翻译。从鲁迅的短篇小说中，我们可以读出作者内心的矛盾：文学能改变世界吗？难道一定要身体力行才能改变世界吗？难道连唤醒那些像阿Q一样任由自己被牵着走，任人宰割的昏昏欲睡的同胞们也能做到吗？当无法改变自己和社会的命运时，唤醒他们还有什么用呢？作为译者，我们如何再现这种矛盾心理，如何处理鲁迅在翻译中有些古板的早期白话，如何与他对日常政治事件的论述。这些都是翻译中必不可免的问题。目前已有的鲁迅作品德译本在这些方面的处理方式多样。巴金在受到批评后修改了三部曲之一的《家》，删除了缠足现象。在翻译这部作品的过程中，译者必须决定是翻译原版还是删减后的版本。

For translators, translation difficulties are different when translating works of different authors. Different translators have different ways of dealing with it, which can explain why there are several translated versions of the same work and the translation strategies are different. I know that the translator's cultural background has a great influence on the choice of translation strategies, so I choose to retranslate some works even if there are translations. From Lu Xun's short stories, we can read the author's inner contradiction: Can literature change the world? Do you have to practice to change the world? Can we even wake up those sleepy compatriots who let themselves be led and slaughtered like Ah Q? What's the use of awakening them when they can't change their own destiny and that of society? As translators, how do we reproduce this ambivalence, how do we deal with Lu Xun's rigid early vernacular in translation, and how do we communicate with his exposition of daily political events? These are all inevitable problems in translation. At present, the existing German versions of Lu Xun's works deal with these aspects in various ways. After being criticized, Ba Jin revised Home, one of the trilogy, and deleted foot binding. In the process of translating this work, the translator must decide whether to translate the original version or the abridged version.

我个人很喜欢徐则臣的作品。在2009年（北上2015年才出版）[Is this book called <北上>？]的法兰克福书展上，他的故事《北上》受到广泛好评。事实上，他的生活经历与我有些重叠部分。我们都在北京大学学习过，只不过他比我早入学一点（多久）。当时校园里有一种亚文化，博士生们住在餐厅旁边的闲置房间里，因为他们对大学里的人、办事流程了如指掌，而且在独立的诗歌和艺术界也有联系，所以每逢有聚会，他们都很抢手，大家竞相邀请他们参加聚会。那时的大学涌现着一股乐观主义的精神，起初门外涌现出私营商业市场，后来校园里传出“开公司”的口号。那时，毕业生不愿毕业就被分入特定的工作岗位，身上的自由和责任感促使他们闯一闯这个世界。故事里拿着盗版产品的街边小贩和软件开发产品的学生先锋也是这幅画的一部分。徐则臣将这种气氛真实地捕捉到，令人信服。他笔下的人物在我们心上扎根，爱上他们，学会在生活中打拼。也是这种情感体验上的共鸣促使我翻译《北上》这部作品。

Personally, I like Xu Zechen's works very much. At the Frankfurt Book Fair in 2009 (published in 2015), his story "Going North" was widely praised. In fact, his life experience overlaps with mine. We all studied at Peking University, but he entered school a little earlier than me. At that time, there was a subculture on campus. Doctoral students lived in idle rooms next to restaurants. Because they knew the people and procedures in the university like the back of their hand, and they also had contacts in independent poetry and art circles, they were very popular whenever there was a party, and everyone invited them to attend the party. At that time, there was a spirit of optimism in universities. At first, private commercial markets emerged outside the doors. Later, the slogan of "starting a company" came out on campus. At that time, graduates were assigned to specific jobs without graduating, and their freedom and sense of responsibility prompted them to enter the world. Street vendors with pirated products and student pioneers with software development products in the story are also part of this painting. Xu Zechen captured this atmosphere truly and convincingly. His characters take root in our hearts, fall in love with them and learn to work hard in life. It is also this resonance in emotional experience that prompted me to translate the work "North".

Es gibt viel mehr Übersetzungen westlicher Literatur in China als chinesischer Literatur im Westen. Hier hat der Westen großen Nachholbedarf. Natürlich ist es auch im heutigen China wichtig, dass endlich Paul Celan komplett ins Chinesische übersetzt wird, wofür z.B. der Dichter Wang Jiaxin Großes leistet.

There are many more translations of Western literature in China than of Chinese literature in the West. Here, the West has a lot of catching up to do. Of course, it is also important in today’s China that Paul Celan is finally translated completely into Chinese, for which, for example, the poet Wang Jiaxin is doing great things.

中国翻译的西方文学作品比西方翻译的中国文学作品多得多。在这里，西方国家还有很多事情要做。当然，在今天的中国，保罗-塞兰终于被完全翻译成中文也是很重要的，为此，比如诗人王家新就做了很大的努力。

Chinawissenschaftler müssen auch als Übersetzer arbeiten. Viele Werke chinesischer Autoren der Moderne und auch Gegenwartsautoren sind im Westen noch zu wenig bekannt. Einer der größten chinesischen Autoren seit den 1980er Jahren, Jia Pingwa liegt kaum in englischer Übersetzung vor. Der Grund ist vor allem die Schwierigkeit, seine im ländlichen Shaanxi verhafteten Geschichten, die von regionalen Sitten und Gebräuchen gefärbt sind, adäquat in die westliche Sprache zu bringen.

Chinese scholars must also work as translators. Many works by Chinese authors of the modern era and also contemporary authors are still too little known in the West. One of the greatest Chinese authors since the 1980s, Jia Pingwa is hardly available in English translation. The reason is mainly the difficulty of adequately translating his stories, which are rooted in rural Shaanxi and colored by regional customs and traditions, into Western language.

中国学者也必须从事翻译工作。中国现代和当代作家的许多作品在西方还太少为人所知。作为20世纪80年代以来中国最伟大的作家之一，贾平凹几乎没有英译本。主要原因是，他的故事植根于陕西农村，带有地域风俗和传统色彩，很难充分翻译成西方语言。

Wenn aber chinesische Literatur ein ganz selbstverständlicher Teil der Weltliteratur werden soll, muss sie von ausländischen Muttersprachlern in deren Sprache übersetzt werden. Kein englischer oder amerikanischer Leser würde freiwillig die Yang/Yang-Übersetzung des Traums der Roten Kammer lesen, wenn er auch die Hawkes/Minford-Übersetzung lesen kann. Der Übersetzer fragt sich, ob er die Namen der Bedeutung nach übersetzen soll, ob man den Traum der Roten Kammer aus Sicht des Klassenkampfes übersetzen und den Sklavencharakter der Dienstboten im Hause Jia betonen soll, auch wenn diese wieder Dienstboten hatten und die Idee des Klassenkampfes erst sehr viel später geboren wurde?

But if Chinese literature is to become a natural part of world literature, it must be translated by foreign native speakers into their language. No English or American reader would voluntarily read the Yang/Yang translation of The Dream of the Red Chamber if he could also read the Hawkes/Minford translation. The translator wonders whether to translate the names according to meaning, whether to translate the Dream of the Red Chamber from the point of view of class struggle and emphasize the slave character of the servants in the House of Jia, even though they again had servants and the idea of class struggle was born much later?

但是，中国文学要想成为世界文学的自然组成部分，就必须由外国母语者将其翻译成他们的语言。如果英美读者也能读到霍克斯/明福的译本，没有一个英美读者会主动去读杨/杨的《红楼梦》。译者在想，要不要按意思翻译名字，要不要从阶级斗争的角度来翻译《红楼梦》，要不要强调贾府中仆人的奴性，尽管他们又有仆人，阶级斗争的思想产生得更晚？

Jeder Autor muss anders übersetzt werden. Aus Lu Xuns Kurzgeschichten lässt sich seine Zerrissenheit lesen: Kann Literatur Welt verändern? Muss man körperlich aktiv werden, um die Welt zu ändern? Kann man die stumpfe Masse lethargischer Landsleute, die sich wie Ah Q zur Schlachtbank führen lassen, überhaupt aufrütteln? Nützt es etwas, sie aufzurütteln, wenn sie doch nichts an ihrem Schicksal und dem der Gesellschaft ändern können? Lu Xuns ergreifende Bilder wie das des Eisenhauses oder des Wasserbüffels wirken auch im Westen. Wie gehen wir als Übersetzer mit dem etwas antiquiert wirkenden frühen Baihua bei Lu Xun in der Übersetzung um? Wie mit seinen Polemiken über tagespolitische Ereignisse, die heute oft vergessen sind? Das sind wichtige Fragen. Die bisher vorliegenden Übersetzungen von Lu Xun im Deutschen sind heterogen.

Each author must be translated differently. From Lu Xun’s short stories, one can read his brokenness: Can literature change world? Do you have to become physically active to change the world? Is it even possible to rouse the dull mass of lethargic compatriots who allow themselves to be led to the slaughter like Ah Q? Is there any use in rousing them, when they can do nothing to change their fate and that of society? Lu Xun’s poignant images like that of the iron house or the water buffalo also have an effect in the West. As translators, how do we deal with Lu Xun’s somewhat antiquated early baihua in translation? How with his polemics about daily political events, which are often forgotten today? These are important questions. The translations of Lu Xun in German available so far are heterogeneous.

每个作者的翻译必须不同。从鲁迅的短篇小说中，可以读出他内心的矛盾。文学能改变世界吗？难道一定要身体力行才能改变世界吗？难道连唤醒那些像阿Q一样任由自己被牵着走，任人宰割的昏昏欲睡的同胞们也能做到吗？当他们无法改变自己和社会的命运时，唤醒他们还有什么用呢？鲁迅笔下的铁屋子、水牛等凄美的形象，在西方也有影响。作为译者，我们如何处理鲁迅在翻译中有些古板的早期白话？如何与他对日常政治事件的论述，今天常常被人遗忘？这些都是重要的问题。目前已有的鲁迅的德文译本异彩纷呈。

Wang Meng wurde früh mit seinem Revolutions-begeisterten schwärmerischen Jugendroman "Lang lebe die Jugend!" berühmt, in dem sich revolutionärer Enthusiasmus und Jugendliebe vermischten. Nach der Kulturrevolution und langer Zeit in Xinjiang wurde Wang Meng mit seinen Geschichten "Der Neuling in der Organisationsabteilung", "Augen der Nacht" (im Bewusstseinsstrom) und "Zäher Brei" als experimentierfreudiger und kritischer Autor bekannt. Ich habe Bücher über seine Essays am Ende meines Bachelor- und Masterstudiums geschrieben und jüngst einen Band seiner Lebenserinnerungen ins Deutsche und mit einer US-Amerikanerin zusammen ins Englische übersetzt: 《中國天機》王蒙著Wang Meng: China – enträtselt, 波鸿：欧洲大学出版社 Bochum: European University Press 2017, ISBN 978-3-86515-888-8 (E-Book ISBN 978-3-86515-889-5) [英文版]《中國天機》王蒙著Wang Meng: “China – deciphered”, 奥勒姆：美国学术出版社 Academic Press of the USA Orem 2017, 978-1-68202-888-9 (E-Book -889-6, co-translated with Licia Kim)

Wang Meng rose to fame early with his revolution-inspired rapturous youth novel "Long Live Youth!", which mixed revolutionary enthusiasm and youthful love. After the Cultural Revolution and a long time in Xinjiang, Wang Meng became known as an experimental and critical writer with his stories "The Newcomer in the Organization Department", "Eyes of Night" (in Stream of Consciousness) and "Tough Porridge". I wrote books of his essays at the end of my bachelor's and master's studies and recently translated a volume of his memoirs into German and into English together with a US-American woman: 《中國天機》王蒙著Wang Meng: China - Enträtselt, 波鸿：欧洲大学出版社 Bochum: European University Press 2017, ISBN 978-3-86515-888-8 (e-book ISBN 978-3-86515-889-5) [英文版]《中國天機》王蒙著Wang Meng: "China - deciphered," 奥勒姆：美国学术出版社 Academic Press of the USA Orem 2017, 978-1-68202-888-9 (e-book -889-6, co-translated with Licia Kim)

王蒙成名很早，他的革命题材狂欢青春小说《青春万岁！》，将革命热情和青春爱情融为一体。文革后，长期在新疆，王蒙以《组织部的新人》、《夜的眼睛》（载于《意识流》）、《熬粥》等小说而闻名于世，是一位实验性、批判性作家。我在学士和硕士毕业时写过他的散文集，最近又把他的一卷回忆录译成德文，并和一位美籍女子一起译成英文。 《中国天机》王蒙著王蒙：《中国-揭秘》，波鸿：欧洲大学出版社2017年，ISBN 978-3-86515-888-8（电子书ISBN 978-3-86515-889-5） 英文版]《中国天机》王蒙著王蒙：《中国-解密》，奥勒姆：美国学术出版社2017年版，978-1-68202-888-9（电子书-889-6，与Licia Kim合译）。

Von Zhu Ziqing habe ich "Die Rückenansicht" übersetzt, eine beeindruckende Hommage an seinen Vater in Form eines erzählerischen Essays.

By Zhu Ziqing, I translated "The Back View," an impressive tribute to his father in the form of a narrative essay.

作者：朱自清 我翻译了《背影》，以记叙文的形式向父亲致敬，令人惊叹。

Ziemlich bekannt ist Zhus Essay "綠" (Grün), in dem er die Schönheit des Meiyu-Teichs (梅雨潭) und des Wasserfalls in den Mittleren Yandang-Bergen in Wenzhou beschreibt, die er 1923 besuchte.

Quite well known is Zhu's essay "綠" (Green), in which he described the beauty of Meiyu Pond (梅雨潭) and waterfall in the Middle Yandang Mountains in Wenzhou, which he visited in 1923.

颇为著名的是朱自清的《绿》一文。其中描述了他1923年到温州雁荡山中段梅雨潭和瀑布的美景。

Bing Xin ist eine bekannte Kinderbuchautorin, die nach der Kulturrevolution ihre Reihe „Briefe an die Kinder“ nahtlos fortsetzte, als wäre nichts geschehen.

Bing Xin is a well-known children's author who seamlessly continued her series of "Letters to Children " after the Cultural Revolution as if nothing had happened.

冰心是著名的儿童文学作家，她在 "文革 "后无缝衔接地继续她的 "给孩子的信 "系列，仿佛什么都没有发生过。

Ba Jin hat unvergleichliche Literatur hinterlassen, seine Trilogie „Die Familie“ hat er nach Kritik überarbeitet und zum Beispiel das Phänomen des Füßebindens gestrichen. Hier muss der Übersetzer entscheiden, ob er die Ursprungs-Fassung oder die überarbeitete übersetzen möchte.

Ba Jin left behind incomparable literature; he revised his trilogy "The Family" after criticism and, for example, deleted the phenomenon of foot-binding. Here, the translator must decide whether to translate the original version or the revised one.

巴金留下了不可多得的文学作品，他在批评后修改了三部曲《家》，比如删除了缠足现象。在这里，译者必须决定是翻译原版还是修订版。

Qian Zhongshu ist der weltläufigste chinesische Schriftsteller seiner Zeit, seine anspruchsvollen Texte zu übersetzen bereitet Freude, da er sich in europäischer Literatur gut auskennt und Motive aus zahlreichen westlichen Werken zitiert oder auf diese anspielt. Sowohl sein Roman "Umzingelte Festung" (Weicheng, 1947), der das Leben eines Universitäts-Dozenten-Ehepaares thematisiert, ist unvergessen, als auch seine vier meisterhaften Kurzgeschichten "Human, Beast, Ghost" (1946). Seine anspruchsvollen Essays aus den Sammlungen "Written in the Margins of Life" (1941), Guanzhui bian (1979-80) und Patchwork: Seven Essays on Art and Literature zeigen, wie Qian Zhongshu meisterhaft die verschiedenen Erscheinungsformen des Teufels durch die Weltliteratur folgt als auch philosophisch über die Funktion von Fenstern und Türen räsoniert.

Qian Zhongshu is the most worldly Chinese writer of his time; translating his sophisticated texts is a pleasure, as he is well versed in European literature and quotes or alludes to motifs from numerous Western works. Both his novel "Encircled Fortress" (Weicheng, 1947), which focuses on the life of a university lecturer couple, and his four masterful short stories "Human, Beast, Ghost" (1946) are unforgotten. His sophisticated essays from the collections Written in the Margins of Life (1941), Guanzhui bian (1979-80), and Patchwork: Seven Essays on Art and Literature show how Qian Zhongshu masterfully follows the various manifestations of the devil through world literature as well as philosophically ruminates on the function of windows and doors.

钱钟书是中国当代最具世界性的作家，翻译他的复杂文字是一种享受，因为他精通欧洲文学，并引用或暗示了众多西方作品的主题。无论是他以大学讲师夫妇生活为题材的小说《包围堡垒》（潍城，1947年），还是他的四部杰作短篇小说《人、兽、鬼》（1946年），都让人难以忘怀。他从《写在生活的边缘》（1941年）、《观水扁》（1979-80年）、《拼凑：七篇艺术与文学论文》等文集中的精致文章，展示了钱钟书如何娴熟地通过世界文学追寻魔鬼的各种表现形式，以及对门窗功能的哲学思考。

Han Shaogong, bekannt durch seine Führung der literarischen Bewegung "Root-seeking literature" (xungen) beschreibt in seinen zahlreichen Erzählungen mit seiner präzisen, geduldsamen und unabhängigen Stimme die Einzigartigkeit von Hunans ländlicher Kultur. Ich habe mit großer Freude zwei seiner Erzählungen übersetzt: 《怒目金刚》韩少功著, Han Shaogong. Der zornige Blick von Buddhas Wächter. 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-216-9 《空院残月》韩少功著, Han Shaogong. Der verblassende Mond über dem verlassenen Innenhof, 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press 2018, ISBN 9783865152176

Han Shaogong, known for his leadership of the Root-seeking literature (xungen) literary movement, describes the uniqueness of Hunan's rural culture in his many narratives with his precise, patient, and independent voice. I have translated two of his narratives with great pleasure: 《怒目金刚》韩少功著, Han Shaogong. The angry look of Buddha's guardian. 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-216-9. 《空院残月》韩少功著, Han Shaogong. The fading moon over the deserted courtyard, 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press 2018, ISBN 9783865152176.

以领导寻根文学(xungen)文学运动而闻名于世的韩少功，在他的大量叙述中，以其准确、耐心、独立的声音，描述了湖南乡村文化的独特性。我非常高兴地翻译了他的两篇叙事。 《怒目金刚》韩少功著，韩少功。佛陀护法愤怒的样子。德国波鸿：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-216-9（销售量：1000）。 《空院残月》韩少功著，韩少功。荒芜庭院上的凋零的月亮》，德国波鸿：欧洲大学出版社Bochum：欧洲大学出版社2018年，ISBN 9783865152176（销售量：1000）。

Yu Qiuyu ist ein großartiger chinesischer Drama- und Kunsthistoriker und Schriftsteller, der einen guten Überblick über die moderne chinesische Kunstgeschichte hat und diese in verständlichen Worten zu vermitteln weiß. Seine Stimme hatte nicht nur in der chinesischen Kulturbürokratie und in Taiwan Gehör, er scheute auch die Auseinandersetzung nicht, die seine Berichte an das Kulturministerium und seine Inspektionsreisen produzierten. Vor den Vereinten Nationen setzte er sich gegen die polarisierende Pamphlet Samuel P. Huntington's vom "Clash of Civilizations" ein und wurde Dekan an der Fakultät für Geisteswissenschaften der Macao University of Science and Technology. Ich habe von ihm zwei Bücher übersetzt: 《昆曲纵论》余秋雨著, Yu Qiuyu. Über die Kun-Oper 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-215-2 《书法史述》余秋雨著Yu, Qiuyu: Geschichte der Kalligraphie in Erzählform / Yu Qiuyu ; 波鸿：欧洲大学出版社 Bochum: Europ. Univ.-vlg. 2017, Reihe Sinica 44, ISBN 978-3-86515-218-3

Yu Qiuyu is a great Chinese drama and art historian and writer who has a good overview of modern Chinese art history and knows how to convey it in understandable terms. His voice was not only heard in the Chinese cultural bureaucracy and in Taiwan, he also did not shy away from the controversy that his reports to the Ministry of Culture and his inspection tours produced. At the United Nations, he lobbied against Samuel P. Huntington's polarizing pamphlet of the "Clash of Civilizations" and became dean at the Faculty of Humanities at Macao University of Science and Technology. I have translated two books by him: 《昆曲纵论》余秋雨著, Yu Qiuyu. On Kun Opera 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-215-《书法史述》余秋雨著Yu, Qiuyu: History of calligraphy in narrative form / Yu Qiuyu ; 波鸿：欧洲大学出版社 Bochum: Europ. Univ.-vlg. 2017, Sinica 44 series, ISBN 978-3-86515-218-3.

余秋雨是一位伟大的中国戏剧艺术史家和作家，他对中国现代艺术史有很好的概括，知道如何用通俗易懂的语言来传达。他的声音不仅在中国文化官僚机构和台湾有了听众，他也不避讳他向文化部的报告和考察所产生的争议。在联合国，他游说反对塞缪尔-P-亨廷顿的 "文明冲突 "的极端化小册子，并担任澳门科技大学人文学院院长。 我曾翻译过他的两本书。 《昆曲纵论》余秋雨著，余秋雨。On Kun Opera 德国波鸿：欧洲大学出版社Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-215-2. 书法史述》余秋雨著/余秋雨 ; 波鸿：欧洲大学出版社 波鸿：Europ. Univ.-vlg. 2017, Sinica 44 series, ISBN 978-3-86515-218-3.

Xu Zechen liegt mir persönlich sehr am Herzen. Auf der Frankfurter Buchmesse 2009# kam seine Erzählung „Im Laufschritt durch Peking“ gut an. Ich habe einen persönlichen Bezug zu seinen Geschichten, da er kurz vor mir an der Peking-Universität studiert hat. Damals gab es auf dem Campus eine Art Subkultur, Doktoranden, die in ungenutzten Räumen neben den Restaurants wohnten und begehrte Partyteilnehmer waren, da sie die Universität incl. Personen, Abläufe und Gepflogenheiten wie ihre Westentasche kannten und Kontakte in die freie Dichter- und Künstlerszene hatten. Es herrschte eine Aufbruchstimmung an der Universität, zunächst entstanden vor den Toren privatwirtschaftliche Märkte, später hörte man das Motto „eine Firma eröffnen“ (kai gongsi) auf dem Campus. Damals begann es, dass die Absolventen nicht mehr nur auf einen Beruf zugeteilt wurden, sondern sich selbst darum kümmerten und sowohl Freiheit wie Verantwortung spürten. Auch Straßenhändler mit Raubkopien und studentische Pioniere der Software-Entwicklung gehörten zu diesem Bild. Xu Zechen erfasst diese Atmosphäre authentisch und fesselnd. Wir fiebern mit seinen Charakteren mit, verlieben uns mit ihnen und lernen, uns durchs Leben zu schlagen. Von ihm habe ich folgendes Buch übersetzt:《啊北京》徐则臣著 Xu Zechen: Ach, Peking!, 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社 Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-220-7

Xu Zechen is very close to my heart personally. At the 2009# Frankfurt Book Fair, his story "Running through Beijing" was well received. I have a personal connection to his stories because he studied at Peking University shortly before me. At that time there was a kind of subculture on campus, doctoral students who lived in unused rooms next to the restaurants and were sought-after party participants, since they knew the university incl. people, procedures and customs like the back of their hand and had contacts in the independent poetry and art scene. There was a spirit of optimism at the university; at first, private markets sprang up outside the gates, and later the slogan "open a company" (kai gongsi) was heard on campus. It was then that graduates began to feel both freedom and responsibility, rather than being assigned to a job. Street vendors with pirated products and student pioneers of software development were also part of this picture. Xu Zechen captures this atmosphere authentically and compellingly. We root for his characters, fall in love with them, and learn to make our way through life. From him, I have translated the following book:《啊北京》徐则臣著 Xu Zechen: Ah, Beijing, 德國波鴻：欧洲大学出版社 Bochum: European University Press, ISBN 978-3-86515-220-7.

徐则臣个人对我的感情很深。在2009年法兰克福书展上#，他的故事《跑过北京》受到好评。我和他的故事有切身的联系，因为他比我早在北京大学读书不久。当时校园里有一种亚文化，博士生们住在餐厅旁边的闲置房间里，是很抢手的聚会参与者，因为他们对大学里的人、程序和风俗习惯了如指掌，而且在独立的诗歌和艺术界也有联系。大学里有一种乐观主义的精神，起初门外涌现出私营商业市场，后来校园里传出 "开公司"（kai gongsi）的口号。那时，毕业生们开始感受到自由和责任，而不是被分配到一个工作岗位上。拿着盗版产品的街边小贩和软件开发的学生先锋也是这幅画的一部分。徐则臣将这种气氛真实地捕捉到，令人信服。我们为他笔下的人物扎根，爱上他们，学会在生活中打拼。 我从他那里翻译了以下书：《啊北京》徐则臣著徐则臣。啊，北京，德国波鸿：欧洲大学出版社波鸿：欧洲大学出版社，ISBN 978-3-86515-220-7。

Einer der wichtigsten chinesischen Schriftsteller der Gegenwart ist Han Han. Viele kennen ihn nur als Rennfahrer, Blogger, Sänger oder ähnliches. Aber diese Eigenschaft des „Multi-Artist“ ist ein Teil seines Schriftstellertums. Ich habe ihn in der modernen Harvard Literaturgeschichte Chinas mit einem Kapitel vorgestellt. An der Harvard-Universität und auf der AAS-Konferenz in den USA habe ich Han Han mit Lu Xun verglichen: Beide waren Meinungsführer, stritten sich auch öffentlich und es ging um ähnliche Themen. Allerdings verdankte Lu Xun seine Autorität seiner Gelehrsamkeit und Wortkunst, Han Han seiner Berühmtheit als Celebrity. Han Hans Werke sind schwer zu übersetzen, da er über einen großen Wortschatz und klassische Zitate verfügt, und da der Handlungsfaden seiner Erzählungen Kapriolen schlägt, die durch wörtlich genommene Redensarten, Metaphern oder Allegorien ausgelöst werden, und diese uneigentliche Rede in der Übersetzung oft andere Bedeutungen hat oder schlicht nicht existiert, ist er einer der am schwersten zu übersetzenden Autoren. Han Han hat mit seinen grotesken Elementen und tragischen Helden eine neue Literatur, die des kritischen Surrealismus geschaffen, die durchaus an Miguel de Cervantes und Lu Xun heranreicht.

One of the most important contemporary Chinese writers is Han Han. Many know him only as a racing driver, blogger, singer or the like. But this characteristic of being a "multi-artist" is a part of his writing. I featured him with a chapter in the modern Harvard Literary History of China. At Harvard University and at the AAS conference in the US, I compared Han Han with Lu Xun: Both were opinion leaders, also argued publicly, and the issues were similar. However, Lu Xun owed his authority to his scholarship and wordcraft, Han Han to his celebrity fame. Han Han's works are difficult to translate because of his large vocabulary and classical quotations, and because the plot thread of his stories makes capers triggered by literal idioms, metaphors, or allegories, and this inauthentic speech often has other meanings in translation or simply does not exist, he is one of the most difficult authors to translate. Han Han, with his grotesque elements and tragic heroes, has created a new literature, that of critical surrealism, which certainly comes close to Miguel de Cervantes and Lu Xun.

当今中国最重要的作家之一是韩寒。很多人只知道他是赛车手、博主、歌手之类的身份。但这种 "多艺人 "的特点，也是他作为作家的一部分。我在《中国现代哈佛文学史》中用一章来介绍他。在哈佛大学和美国的AAS会议上，我把韩寒和鲁迅做了比较。两人都是意见领袖，也公开争论过，问题也很相似。然而，鲁迅的权威归功于他的学识和词藻，韩寒归功于他的名人名气。韩寒的作品由于词汇量大，经典语录多，而且他的叙事情节线索帽，由字面的成语、隐喻或寓言引发，这种不真实的言语在翻译中往往有其他含义或根本不存在，所以他是最难翻译的作家之一。韩寒以其怪诞的元素和悲剧性的英雄，创造了一种新的文学，那就是批判超现实主义的文学，这当然接近于米格尔-德-塞万提斯和鲁迅。

6 跨文化身份

段：作为汉学家和翻译家，您的跨文化身份让你置身于东西方文明之间。当您从欧洲文化和文学背景来到中国的文化和文学背景中，在两种迥异的语言之间进行转换，是否感到自己的思维方式和行文风格发生了些许改变？

[This question asks you whether living in China for almost eight years affects your translating ideologies? Is there any difference if you only learned Chinese but never lived in China for such a long time? ]

吴：在欧洲，很多孩子最多学习五种语言。我也是多国语言的人，在外语国家和文化中度过了很多时间。在我看来，语言和国界似乎不如那些以这些语言和文化为家，并且（通过互联网、全球化和旅行自由）在这些地区之间越来越独立地移动的人们重要。我们无法选择我们出生的地方，但我们可以选择我们想要生活的地方。迄今为止，我在美国生活了四年，在中国生活了八年。那我是不是就不如中国人的美国人了？当我生活在中国，发现自己在做中文白日梦的时候，我偶尔会忘记自己其实是德国人。文化让我们充实，让我们受教育，让我们变得文明，让我们发挥出最好的一面。

In Europe, many children learn up to five languages. I, too, am multilingual and have spent a lot of time in foreign-language countries and cultures. Language and country borders seem less important to me than the people who are at home in these languages and cultures and who (through the Internet, globalization, and freedom to travel) move more and more independently between these areas. We can't choose where we are born, but we can choose where we want to live. I have lived in the U.S. for four years and in China for eight years so far. Does that make me less American than Chinese? When I live in China and catch myself daydreaming in Chinese, I occasionally forget that I'm actually German. Culture fulfills us, educates us, makes us civilized, it brings out the best in us.

对文化和地域的认同，会产生家的感觉，对地方和同胞产生依恋。但被意识形态利用的不也是这个民族或文化吗？什么力量能够让一个人去打仗，结束别人的生命？是不是所有的意识形态一旦引诱人们去杀人，就会被证明是虚假的？作为世界之间的转换者，作为欧洲对中国的一种学术大使，反之亦然，这两个伟大文明之间任何基于意识形态的敌意在我看来都是寒酸的--只有民族之间的友谊，带着好奇和尊重相遇，才值得超越国界。连莎士比亚都认识到，爱情不仅可以消除敌对宗族之间的隔阂，还可以揭露敌意的谬误。

Identification with a culture and region creates feelings of home and attachment to places and compatriots. But isn't it also this nation or culture that has been exploited by ideologies? What power is capable of making a person go to war and end another person's life? Don't all ideologies, once they have seduced people into killing, turn out to be false? As a shifter between worlds, as a kind of academic ambassador of Europe in China and vice versa, any ideologically based hostility between these two great civilizations seems shabby to me - Only the friendship of peoples, meeting each other curiously and respectfully is worthy to overcome borders. Shakespeare already recognized that love can not only overcome the gulf between hostile clans, but also expose the error of enmity.

7 中西合璧

吴：有人认为中华文化走出去最好的译介模式是“中西合璧”，如葛浩文和林丽君的译作在国内外产生了较大影响。您对此有何看法？[I think this answer is rather insufficient. ]

吴：什么是理想的译者？韦努蒂认为译者应该是隐身的，看不见的。如果读者没有注意到所读文本是一个译本，那么译者就达到了完美的境界。

What is an ideal translator? Venuti believes that translators should be invisible and invisible. If the reader doesn't notice that the text he reads is a translation, then the translator has reached a perfect state.

我认为，翻译绝对要来自目标文化和语言。只有这样的译者才能向目标读者传达他自己想要传达的形象。源文化和语言的译者未必是目标文化和语言的主人。当然，真正的双语翻译，在两种文化和语言中成长得差不多，并且精通两种文化和语言的人，在这里是最好的。

I think that a translator must necessarily come from the target culture and language. Only this translator is able to convey to the target readership the image that he himself wants to convey. Translators from the source culture and language may not be masters of the target culture and language. Of course, a truly bilingual translator who has grown up in both cultures and languages about equally and has mastered them would be best here.

此外，如果译者从事另一种职业，即源文本作者的职业，如小说家或诗人，那就更好了。他还应该熟悉源文本的写作时间和环境。他不应该让文本比原作'更好'，但他应该能够接近原作。

Furthermore, it would be good if the translator practiced another profession, that of the source text author, e.g. novelist or poet. He should also be familiar with the time and environment in which the source text was written. He should not make the text 'better' than the original, but he should be able to approach the original.

译文总是一种新的创造，它在文字上不能再模仿原文，而在功能、效果等方面却可以再现原文的特点，所以葛浩文和林丽君这样的“中西合璧”的组合在翻译极具中国特色的作品时应该会比较合适。

Translation is always a new creation. It can no longer imitate the original text in words, but can reproduce the characteristics of the original text in terms of function and effect. Therefore, the combination of "Chinese and Western combination" such as Ge Haowen and Lin Lijun should be more appropriate when translating works with Chinese characteristics.

8 中华文化外译传播

段：根据您的实践经验和理性思考，中华文化外译传播有哪些成功因素?

吴：首先，对于普通读者而言，接受《红楼梦》第一步就必须有可读的译本，因此《红楼梦》在其它没有译本的国家的传播有赖于译者的工作。我认为等待引进不如主动输出。这样成功的例子不是没有。20世纪80年代，杨宪益倡议出版熊猫丛书，意在向国外译介中国当代、现代和古代的优秀作品，所出版的杂志和从书在国外有相当大的影响，几乎成为很长时期内国外研究中国汉学、对中国文学有兴趣的人了解中国文学的唯一的窗口。因此，中国相关机构可借鉴当时的经验，在还没有译本的欧洲国家作出尝试。

First of all, for ordinary readers, the first step to accept a Dream of Red Mansions is to have a readable translation, so the dissemination of a Dream of Red Mansions in other countries without a translation depends on the translator's work. I think it is better to take the initiative to export than to wait for import. There are not no such successful examples. In 1980s, Yang Xianyi initiated the publication of Panda Series, aiming at translating and introducing excellent works of contemporary, modern and ancient China to foreign countries. The published magazines and books have a considerable influence abroad, and have almost become the only window for people who study Chinese Sinology abroad and are interested in Chinese literature to understand Chinese literature for a long time. Therefore, relevant Chinese institutions can learn from the experience at that time and try in European countries that have not yet translated them.

其次，西方尤其是美国的《红楼梦》研究开始用现代理论解读《红楼梦》，如 “感觉”、“同性恋”等。因此在每隔几年举办一次的红学会议上，整理以前的研究，撰写一部西方学术界与小说接触史就显得十分重要。

Secondly, the study of "A Dream of Red Mansions" in the West, especially in the United States, began to interpret "A Dream of Red Mansions" with modern theories, such as "feeling" and "homosexuality". Therefore, it is very important to sort out the previous research and write a history of contact between western academic circles and novels at the Redology Conference held every few years.

我很早就开始关注《红楼梦》在西方的接受情况。其刚进入西方世界之时并不是一片叫好，直至被列为世界文学的一部分，这一过程持续了很多年。一方面是因为完整的译本直至XX年才出现，另一方面是因为许多西方汉学家和译者的民族中心主义世界观，他们认为只有本土的文学才称得上世界文学，而对别国文学视若无睹。在我看来，跨越时间空间，对优秀作品的认同还是同样的，因此《红楼梦》应该成为世界文化遗产。

I began to pay attention to the acceptance of A Dream of Red Mansions in the West very early. When it first entered the western world, it was not applauded until it was listed as a part of world literature, which lasted for many years. On the one hand, the complete translation did not appear until XX years; On the other hand, it is because many western sinologists and translators have an ethnocentric world outlook. They think that only local literature can be called world literature and turn a blind eye to other countries' literature. In my opinion, across time and space, the recognition of excellent works is the same, so A Dream of Red Mansions should become a world cultural heritage.

最后，中国文化作品的译介研究不能仅仅依靠本土研究者、译者，还需要目标语国家的同人鼎力相助。就《红楼梦》而言，对其翻译的研究不在少数，但遗憾的是，其中研究者多为中国学者，他们研究时没有与本土学者交流。但我认为，为了提升学术质量，中国学者的学术成果在发表前应由本土学者审查。无论如何，无论在中国还是在西方，一个新的领域就是小说的跨文化研究。

Finally, the translation and introduction of Chinese cultural works can not only rely on local researchers and translators, but also need the full help of colleagues in the target language countries. As far as A Dream of Red Mansions is concerned, there are not a few studies on its translation, but unfortunately, most of the researchers are Chinese scholars, and they did not communicate with local scholars during their research. However, I think that in order to improve the academic quality, the academic achievements of Chinese scholars should be reviewed by local scholars before publication. In any case, whether in China or in the West, a new field is the cross-cultural study of novels.

9 提建议

段：您自1990年代来华留学，在华生活多年。作为中西文化的“摆渡人”，您是如何坚持翻译中国经典著作的？您对中德文化交流的未来发展前景有何预见？[What is the future of China-Germany Exchange in your opinion? ]是否可以给年青一代的汉学家、翻译家提出一些建议？

吴：题中的“摆渡人”形象很好，“摆渡人”的形象历来是正面的，在欧洲也是俗称的“好听话”，这也是世界文学中的典型主题。在近5000年前（公元前2600年）的文学作品《吉尔伽美什史诗》就讲述了摆渡人乌尔-萨纳比带国王渡过死亡之水的故事。摆渡人是两个世界的纽带，起着至关重要的作用。其实，译者本身就是一个“摆渡人”，他/她将作者的思想境界、梦境、想象告诉读者，把读者带入目标语环境之中。

The image of "ferryman" in the question is very good. The image of "ferryman" has always been positive. It is also commonly known as "good obedience" in Europe, which is also a typical theme in world literature. Nearly 5,000 years ago (2600 BC), the literary work "Gilgamesh Epic" tells the story of ferryman Ur Sanabi who took the king through the water of death. The ferryman is the link between the two worlds and plays a vital role. In fact, the translator himself is a "ferryman". He/she tells the reader the author's ideological realm, dreams and imagination, and brings the reader into the target language environment.

学生时代时我就发现，中国学生都知道歌德、莎士比亚、海涅，而西方几乎没有人知道屈原、李白、苏东坡、曹雪芹，对此我感到非常震惊。尽管翻译工作在西方不被视为学术研究，没有受到高度重视，但我个人把中国文学作品，特别是名著和经典作品翻译成德文看作毕生的事业。我还在德国维藤建立了一个翻译工作坊，专门鼓励年轻一代的毕业生，为他们争取翻译项目，通常是将中国文学作品译成德语和英语，目前已经翻译出了。。。。。。。。

[What translations have been published/done in your translation workshop in Germany? ] When I was a student, I found that Chinese students all knew Goethe, Shakespeare and Heine, while almost no one in the West knew Qu Yuan, Li Bai, Su Dongpo and Cao Xueqin. I was very shocked. Although translation is not regarded as an academic research in the West and is not highly valued, I personally regard the translation of Chinese literary works, especially famous works and classic works, into German as a lifelong career. I also set up a translation workshop in Witten, Germany, to encourage the younger generation of graduates and strive for translation projects for them. Usually, Chinese literary works are translated into German and English, which have already been translated. . . . . . . .

当然，从翻译的本质上来说，这是一项语言服务。没有这种服务，研究就无法实现。多了解中国文化，对德国文化没有坏处。而德国民众通常不懂中文，因此通过翻译获得资讯似乎是唯一方式。不过对于专业从事中国文学创作的人来说，当然建议掌握汉语能力，因为读原著永远比读译著更真实。

Of course, translation is essentially a language service. Without this service, research cannot be realized. Knowing more about Chinese culture will do no harm to German culture. German people usually don't understand Chinese, so getting information through translation seems to be the only way. However, for those who specialize in Chinese literary creation, it is of course recommended to master Chinese ability, because reading the original works is always more authentic than reading the translated works.

10 译研结合

段：作为世界汉学研究会会长，您组织了多场与汉学相关的国际会议，包括一年一度的世界汉学研究大会（WACS），持续向世界展示中华文化的魅力。您既是译者，又是研究者，您如何看待这两个身份之间的转换？您对从事译研结合的学者有何建议吗？

吴：在西方，学者的地位普遍高于译者。不过，就我而言，译者的工作还是很重要的，因为科学有赖于源头的发展（The work of the translator is nevertheless important, since science depends on the development of sources.）。最重要的是，如果没有翻译，大众就无法认识和了解外国语言与文化。因此，我既做翻译，也做学术研究，一方面是有时在翻译的过程中发现某个学术研究的选题或者已有选题再翻译中找到了一个突破点；另一方面，有时做学术研究需要阅读一些中国文学作品，但发现并没有德译本，所以干脆自己动手翻译。

In the West, the status of scholars is generally higher than that of translators. However, as far as I am concerned, the translator's work is still very important, because science depends on the development of the source. Most importantly, without translation, the public cannot know and understand foreign languages and cultures. Therefore, I do both translation and academic research; On the one hand, I sometimes find a breakthrough point in the process of translation when I find a topic of an academic research or in the re-translation of an existing topic; On the other hand, sometimes it is necessary to read some Chinese literary works for academic research, but it is found that there is no German translation, so I simply translate it myself.

翻译批评现在在中国是比较热门的学术研究方向，拿《红楼梦》为例。我个人认为，做相关翻译批评的学者首先自己也应该是作家，有自己的代表作，或者翻译过一定的作品。此外，做翻译批评时最好将对象锁定为译本语言是母语的作品。如果一个人对自己的源语言掌握得很好，就能够分辨出字里行间的引申义和细微的差别，更好地评估选词、文体等是否得当。但可惜的是，中国红学届或者翻译学届几乎没有人具备这样的条件。

Translation criticism is now a popular academic research direction in China. Take a Dream of Red Mansions as an example. Personally, I think that scholars who do relevant translation criticism should first be writers themselves, have their own representative works, or have translated certain works. In addition, when making translation criticism, it is best to target works whose translation language is the mother tongue. If a person has a good grasp of his source language, he can distinguish the extended meaning and subtle differences between the lines, and better evaluate whether the choice of words and styles are appropriate. However, unfortunately, few people in the Chinese Redology or Translation Studies have such conditions.

我每年邀请100多位同事到自己的领域讲课，主要是觉得人的一生都是可以学习的，通过更多的视角和会议间隙的讨论，可以向同事学习，拓宽自己的视野。

When I invite more than 100 colleagues to lecture on their field every year, it is mainly because I think that one can learn throughout one's life, that one can learn from colleagues and broaden one's horizons through more perspectives and the discussions on the sidelines of the conference.

另外，我还建议做翻译的同仁一定要去原语/目标语国家生活一段时间。截至目前，我在中国生活了八年，每隔一段时间，新的表达方式都会扑面而来，每天都在学习，自然对我研究和翻译都有帮助。

In addition, I also suggest that colleagues who do translation must live in the source/target language countries for a period of time. Up to now, I have lived in China for eight years. Every once in a while, new expressions come to me and I study every day. Naturally, it is helpful for my research and translation.

11 国际汉学中心

段：您是湖南师范大学“潇湘学者”特聘教授，并担任国际汉学中心主任。请问：该中心主要从事工作？您未来计划开展哪些项目推动中德文化交流？

吴：国际汉学研究中心是国内国学与海外汉学研究的桥梁。来自世界各地、不同背景的学者，可以依托这个平台进行交流合作。

我们从香港引进了来自美国的Margaret Chu，她在2021年初刚被聘为澳门科技大学副教授。她作为中心的兼职高级研究员，负责联系各国学者，评估和审阅中心的研究成果。朱女士还负责引进了许多同仁，包括来自牛津、加州和马萨诸塞州的同仁。

另外，四位来自德国的学者已经被聘为外国语学院教授，其中两名也将加盟国际汉学研究中心。来自卡尔斯鲁厄的哲学家Ole Döring和来自杜塞尔多夫的历史学家Cord Eberspächer，他曾在那里担任孔子学院院长。

中心的研究员正在共同构思编写《中国研究史 》，包括有一卷总论和十卷单行本，该书预计将以英文、德文和中文同时出版。

除此以外，中心正在研究四大名著，特别是《红楼梦》在西方的参与史。

在现代文学中，我们看鲁迅，包括他与欧洲作家和改革教育家的相识。从国际汉学的角度看，钱钟书也很有意思，他的文章中充满了对西方文学的引用。

中心支持将中文书籍翻译成英语和德语。因此，翻译了许多小说、短篇小说和非小说类书籍。

The International Sinology Research Center is a bridge between domestic Sinology and overseas Sinology research. Scholars from all over the world and from different backgrounds can rely on this platform for exchanges and cooperation.

We introduced Margaret Chu from the United States from Hong Kong. She was just hired as an associate professor at Macau University of Science and Technology in early 2021. As a part-time senior researcher of the Center, she is responsible for contacting scholars from all over the world to evaluate and review the research results of the Center. Ms Zhu is also responsible for bringing in many colleagues, including colleagues from Oxford, California and Massachusetts.

In addition, four scholars from Germany have been hired as professors of the Foreign Languages Institute, and two of them will join the International Sinology Research Center. Ole D ö ring, a philosopher from Karlsruhe, and Cord Ebersp ä cher, a historian from D ü sseldorf, where he served as the dean of Confucius Institute.

Researchers at the Center are jointly conceiving the compilation of "History of Chinese Studies", including a general book and ten singles, which is expected to be published in English, German and Chinese at the same time.

In addition, the center is studying the participation history of Four Great Classical Novels, especially A Dream of Red Mansions in the West.

In the area of modern literature, we look at Lu Xun, including his acquaintance with European writers and reform educators. Qian Zhongshu is also interesting from the perspective of international Chinese studies; his texts are full of references to Western literature.

The Center supports the translation of Chinese books into English and German. Thus, numerous novels, short stories and non-fiction books have been translated.

12. 《红楼梦》跟今天国内外的读者有什么关系？

段：《红楼梦》跟今天国内外的读者有什么关系？

Woesler: The novel is an embodiment of “Zeitgeist”.

吴：小说作为 "时代精神 "的体现。

According to Georg Lukács’ Theory of the Novel, while the Epos (like Homer’s Ilias, which like the Dream reasons the stories in the divine realm) displayed a holistic world experience, a complete, self-contained culture, the novel displays, that the modern world has become infinitely large and has lost its homely quality.

根据格奥尔格-卢卡奇的小说理论，虽然Epos（像荷马的伊利亚斯，它像梦理由神界的故事）展示了一个整体的世界经验，一个完整的，自足的文化，小说展示，现代世界已经变得无限大，已经失去了它的家的品质。

The novel as a genre is no longer documenting just one culture, but represents, with the words of Walter Benjamin, the Organon of History. So the understanding of the novel changed with Lukacs to historical-philosophically. A novel is understood as typical for its historical era, the novel embodies the spirit of the epoch (Zeitgeist).

小说作为一种文体，不再只是记录一种文化，而是用瓦尔特-本雅明的话说，代表了历史的有机体。所以，对小说的理解随着卢卡奇的改变，变成了历史哲学的理解。小说被理解为其历史时代的典型，小说体现了时代精神（Zeitgeist）。

The Red Chamber Dreams are written in front of the background of the Manchu minority having taken over the power in formerly Han-shaped Ming-China (which was a multi-ethnic and crosscultural society) and families suffering the changing favor of changing emperors, with the Cao family being fostered by Kangxi and being persecuted by Yongzheng.

《红楼梦》写的是满族少数民族在原汉字形的明中国（这是一个多民族、跨文化的社会）掌握了政权，家庭遭受换代皇帝的宠爱，曹家被康熙扶植，被雍正迫害的背景前。

While the author in his time could not criticize the system and power of emperors, in the novel he came to terms with this life by seeking the guilt for the persecution in the growing decadence of the family (engaging in Daoism, leisure, poetry-writing, arts and music instead of learning for being able to earn a living) and in himself not fulfilling the expectations as the family heir. This description of decadence of a declining family reminds us of the novels of Tschechov (and e.g. in the Buddenbrooks by Mann, including the turn to arts and music).

虽然作者在他的时代无法批判帝制和皇权，但在小说中，他为家族的日益衰败（参加道教、娱乐、诗歌、艺术和音乐活动，而不是为了谋生而学习）和自己作为家族继承人没有实现家族期望感到自责，通过这样做，他也对这种生活做妥协。这种对没落家族颓废状况的描写，让我们想起了契诃夫的小说（如曼恩的《布登布鲁克》，包括对艺术和音乐的转向）

Moreover, with the detailed description of life on all social levels in early Qing Dynasty, the Dream appears as a documentary historical novel very much like Günter Grass’ The Tin Drum 1959.

此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的《铁皮鼓1959》非常相似，《铁皮鼓1959》是一部纪实历史小说。

13. 曹雪芹和跨国文化

段：从跨国文化的角度看曹雪芹你有合想法？

Woesler: Cao Xueqin and even more his protagonist Jia Baoyu both are early humanists, universalists and world citizens. The Red Chamber Dreams function worldwide. The Dream is a complex showroom of diverse aspects of Chinese cultures and is the embodiment and essence of Chinese cultures, but it has also a global impact, therefore it should be honoured as “World Documentary Heritage”.

吴：曹雪芹，尤其是他的主人公贾宝玉，都是早期的人文主义者，普世主义者和世界公民。《红楼梦》具有普世价值。《红楼梦》综合展示了中国的多元文化，是中国文化的集中体现和精华，同时在全球范围内产生影响，理应列入世界记忆遗产名录。

Cao Xueqin’s message is not simply the one of “Paradise Lost”, instead he himself made the best out of his life. Although being less wealthy than when his family still enjoyed the favour of the emperor, there was a payroll system and a social net intact in Early Qing China, where he received enough income to be independent from his rich relatives, to be selective on accepting jobs, to live a relaxed life in a small house in the nature, spending time with his family and friends, follow his own interests, like reading, writing and drinking wine, making kites for the children and thinking of the disadvantaged.

曹雪芹所传达的信息并不是简单的“失乐园”，相反，他把自己的生活过得很好。 虽然比起他的家族享受皇帝的宠爱，他过得没有那么富裕，但清初中国有一套薪俸制度和一张完整的社会网，他获得了足够的收入，可以独立于富贵亲戚，可以有选择性地接受工作，可以在大自然的小房子里过着悠闲的生活，可以与家人和朋友共度时光，可以追随自己的兴趣，例如读书，写作和饮酒，可以为孩子们做风筝，可以为弱势群体着想。

Cao Xueqin was fully aware of his time and China’s cultural achievements, he was familiar with the different levels of society, he was a detailed observer and skilful narrator. He may have conceptualized the ending of the novel as a discussion about the different personalities of the characters in the novel and therefore displaying his reflection about life and his psychological understanding of the diversity of human nature. He was able to grasp the “spirit of time” (Zeitgeist) and with his autobiographical experience create an eternal coming-of-age novel not just for his family, for the Qing-Chinese, for Chinese people, but for mankind.

曹雪芹对自己所处的时代和中国的文化成就了如指掌，他熟悉社会的不同层面，他是一个细致的观察者和娴熟的叙述者。因此，他在小说中对人的不同个性的理解和对小说中人物性格的多样性进行了概念化的探讨。他能够把握“时代精神”，用他的自传体经历，不仅为他的家庭，为清朝的中国人，为中国人民，而且为人类，创作了一部永恒的成人小说。

This tradition of Coming-of-age novels is also a European one, like enlightenment philosopher Voltaire’s novel Candide or Optimism《老实人》shows at the very same time (1759) in Europe. Also Voltaire’s Candide has to leave the luxurious paradise of his childhood and strives for true love, but his main learning is more pessimistic, since Voltaire wrote the novel in opposition to Leibniz, who optimistically looked to China as “the best of all worlds”. Recent research findings show that China had a much larger influence on European enlightenment philosophers and we can be sure, that also Cao Xueqin was aware of some European literary traditions.

这种成熟的传统小说也是一个欧洲人,像启蒙运动哲学家伏尔泰在欧洲同时间出版的的小说《老实人》(1759年)。伏尔泰笔下的老实人不得不离开童年的奢华天堂，为追求真爱而奋斗，但他的主要学习内容却更为悲观，因为伏尔泰的小说与莱布尼茨截然相反，莱布尼茨乐观地认为中国是“所有世界中最好的”。最近的研究发现，中国对欧洲启蒙运动哲学家的影响要大得多，我们可以肯定，曹雪芹对欧洲的一些文学传统也有所了解。

15. 结语

段：我们非常感佩您对中华文化的热爱、对推动中德文化交流做出的突出贡献！再次感谢您接受我的访问！祝您多结学术硕果！

吴：谢谢你！的确，通过文化交往把人们团结起来，这是我们这个时代最重要的任务之一。许多国家都以自己的文化为荣。可是，没有任何一种文化逊色于其它文化，每种文化都有其独特的魅力，促进我们作为个人和整个人类的发展。我作为一个德国人，爱上了中国文化。如果其它国家的人也爱上了中国文化，中国人爱上了其它国家的文化，那么可以想见，整个人类文化必将绽放。这样，人们就能实现尊重和宽容。

Thank you! Indeed, uniting people through cultural exchanges is one of the most important tasks of our time. Many countries are proud of their own culture. However, no culture is inferior to other cultures, and each culture has its own unique charm, which promotes our development as individuals and as human beings as a whole. As a German, I fell in love with Chinese culture. If people from other countries also fall in love with Chinese culture and Chinese people fall in love with other countries' cultures, it is conceivable that the whole human culture will bloom. In this way, people can achieve respect and tolerance.

SAMPLE

美国汉学家 白亚仁谈中国小说在英美的翻译与传播

□ 受访人：［美］ 白亚仁（Allan H. Barr) 采访人： 杨 平

访谈按语： 白亚仁（Allan H. Barr），1954 年 4 月出生于加拿大，1977 年获得剑桥大学东方研究学士学位，1983 年获得牛津大学中国文学专业博士学位。现任美国波摩纳学院（Pomona College）亚洲语言文学系教授。早期主要从事中国古典文学尤其是明清小说的研究；目前主要从事中国当代文学的译介，翻译了余华的《在细雨中呼喊》《十个词汇里的中国》《黄昏里的男孩》《第七天》等作品，并编译了韩寒的 《这一代》。 2017 年 12 月 20 日， 白亚仁教授应邀来浙江外国语学院进行学术讲座，期间笔者对他进行了访谈， 就 白教授与中国文化的因缘、对《聊斋志异》的研究、对余华作品的翻译，及中国文学的海外传播等话题进行了愉快的交流。 中图分类号：H059 doi:10.19326/j.cnki.2095-9257.2019.04.002

杨平（下文简称“ 杨”）： 白教授您好！非常感谢您接受我的采访。您是著名的汉学家，也是中国文学研究和翻译的专家，尤其是在明清小说家蒲松龄及其《聊斋志异》的研究方面和中国当代文学的翻译方面卓有成就。首先我想问一下，您当初为什么选择学习中文，研究、翻译中国文学？

白亚仁（下文简称“ 白”）：我想家庭背景有一定的影响。我父母都研究外语，他们都在爱丁堡大学（University of Edinburgh）学习古典文学、希腊语和拉丁语。我父亲研究希伯来语，是《圣经》语言研究专家，也研究其他一些中东语言； 我母亲后来在中学教拉丁语和希腊语。我姐姐在大学学习法语，我自己在中学学习法语、拉丁语和希腊语。我不想重复我父母和我姐姐走过的路， 所以就选择了一个比较遥远的文化。我喜欢法语之类的现代语言，也喜欢古代的拉丁语和希腊语，中文刚好古代语和现代语兼而有之，从古文到现代汉语发展没有中断。如果学习中文，那就有机会同时接触古代汉语和现代汉语。我也可以选择日语，但是日本历史、日本文化没有那么吸引我，我觉得中国有更丰富、更悠久的文化传统。

我于 20 世纪 70 年代开始学习中文，当时是想更多地了解中国。那时还是“毛泽东时代”，中国好像是一个很神秘的国家。到了“文化大革命” 后期，中国开始恢复跟西方国家的交流，英国学生开始有机会到中国来留学或者进修，所以我觉得可能以后会有更好的学习环境。那时我没想到中国的变化会这么快、这么惊人，但就是预感中国会有变化。我高中就申请到剑桥大学去学中文， 那时中国现当代文学没有很吸引我，引起我兴趣的是中国古代文学，尤其是明清小说，我们本科时阅读的冯梦龙“三言”的一些短篇，还有《红楼梦》和《儒林外史》的一些篇章都很有趣。我研究生时的研究方向也是明清文学，尤其是明清小说。

我对翻译的兴趣是最近 20 年才开始的。一方面，翻译作为学术活动、学术成果在美国大学并不那么受重视。刚参加工作时，我没想过要做翻译。晋升教授以后，我享有更多的自由，可以做一些自己想做的事情，这才开始从事翻译。另一方面，20 世纪 90 年代后期，中国当代文学出现了一些比较出色的作品，这也是我尝试翻译中国文学的原因。我之所以喜欢翻译，因为它跟研究不一样。研究古典文学比较辛苦，翻译当代文学就相对轻松，还可以直接与作者交流，研究蒲松龄就没有这种乐趣。翻译带给我快乐，使我得以更多了解当代中国文学的动向，丰富了我的学术生活和精神生活。 杨：是什么原因使您决定研究明清文言小说， 如《聊斋志异》的？

白：我在大学四年级快毕业的时候开始阅读《聊斋志异》，觉得趣味十足。当时读的是中文原著，比较吃力，但依靠一些注释也基本可以读懂。剑桥大学中文系很重视传统文化和古典文学， 我们的中文口语可能不那么流畅，但是读古文还是有相当水平的。我喜欢研究别人不太研究的作家和作品。现在《聊斋志异》比较热门，但在 20世纪 70 年代末我作研究生时，从 1949 年到 1978 年，中国只出过两本有关《聊斋志异》的专著， 重要的论文也只有十几篇。为什么文言小说在唐朝达到一个高峰，在蒲松龄生活的清朝又达到另一个高峰？这是我当时感兴趣的问题。同时，蒲松龄从 30 多岁开始写《聊斋志异》，一直写到快70 岁，在这个漫长的过程中，他的写作发生了怎样的变化？这也是我想研究的问题。此外，《聊斋志异》中有些故事并不纯粹是虚构的，而是来源于现实生活，而我恰好也喜欢从历史的角度去研究文学。基于这些考虑，《聊斋志异》深深地吸引了我。后来《聊斋志异》逐渐成为很多人关注的作品，我的兴趣反而淡薄了，最近 20 年基本没有发表与《聊斋志异》相关的论文，转而研究一些没什么人研究的文言小说及作家。

杨：您是否关注过《聊斋志异》的英译本？

白：我阅读原著的同时也读了翟理斯（HerbertGiles，1845—1935）的译 本“Strange Tales from a Chinese Studio”(1)。翟理斯翻译了《聊斋志异》三分之一左右的故事，但他的本意是把译文分享给他的孩子，而《聊斋志异》本来是为成年人写的， 并不是儿童读物。为了满足儿童的阅读需求，他做了相应的修改或删除。比如说，原著中一个书生和一个美女相遇，二人可能很快发生了性关系， 但在翟理斯译本中他们就只是喝茶。在《红玉》等好几个故事里他都做了这样的改写。从其他方面来说他还是个优秀的译者，而且他使用了维多利亚时期的英语，跟我们现在使用的英语有所差别，很好地反映了《聊斋志异》使用的中文不是现代普通 白话文的事实。 杨：您为什么从中国明清文学的研究转向中国当代文学的翻译？

白：研究古典文学很吃力，古文很难懂，资料也难找，而且在图书馆借阅图书也有各种麻烦， 效率很低。相比之下，做翻译要轻松很多，一台电脑，几本词典，再加上一两个中国朋友就可以了。我自己投入翻译工作，一方面是想换换口味； 另一方面，我在教学过程中接触到一些中国当代文学的译本，对别人的译文往往不太满意，总觉得自己能够译得更好。做翻译给了我放开的机会， 可以暂时摆脱严谨的学术研究。翻译中国当代文学作品，好像去当下的中国街道上看风景、看人物；搞明清文学研究能去看什么呢？

杨：在现当代众多有名的作家中，您为何选择翻译余华的作品？

白：当初我看中了余华的《许三观卖血记》（Chronicle of a Blood Merchant），1996 年左右我读了原著，两天就读完了。这本书的可读性很强， 一些细节让我很感动，有些情节让我想哭，有些情节又令我想笑，我觉得很精彩，好像中国当代小说很少能引起这么一种反应；而且书的篇幅不长，语言简单，翻译不那么费力，这正是我想要翻译的那种书。但是很快我发现已经有人在翻译这本书，(2) 自己再翻译就不是很好的选择，所以我就决定翻译余华的短篇小说集《黄昏里的男孩》（Boy in the Twilight）(1)。这本书我也喜欢，篇幅比《许三观卖血记》还短，翻译更加容易。当时西方有很多反映“文化大革命”和“毛泽东时代”的著作及回忆录，我认为这些书很有价值，但如果外国人只读这样的书，就难以了解中国 1978 年以后的变化，还以为中国街上都是红卫兵呢。《黄昏里的男孩》的故事都发生在改革开放初期，与中国政治保持了一定的距离，更多反映的是普通老百姓的家庭问题，比如说父母和孩子的代沟、婚姻中的危机等，我觉得这是西方人比较容易认同和理解的题材，有译介的价值。 记得第一次跟余华见面是 2001 年，我利用学术假去北京拜访他。他同意我翻译这本书，从此我们开始了长达十几年的合作。无论是我来中国还是他去美国，我们都会见面。翻译了这本书后两三年，我又翻译了他的第一部长篇小说《在细雨中呼喊》（Cries in the Drizzle）(2)，2007年，这本书在美国上市。后来余华写了《兄弟》（Brothers）(3)，因为一些原因我没有承担这本书的翻译，但余华去美国为《兄弟》英文版做宣传时， 到我的学校做了讲座。因为这场讲座，他开始写《十个词汇里的中国》（China in Ten Words）(4)，我也与他进行了第三次合作。《兄弟》之后，他写的《第七天》（The Seventh Day）(5) 也是我翻译的。目前美国已经出版了我翻译的四部余华作品，明年还有一个中短篇小说集出版，书名是《四月三日事件》（The April Third Incident）。

杨：您觉得余华小说有什么特点？您在翻译余华小说时遇到过哪些困难和挑战？

白：我喜欢余华的写作风格，简洁、朴实。余华的小说比较容易翻译，因为语言平实，没有方言，用的是标准普通话，句子往往也比较简短， 没有那么多中国特有的东西，很少有“这个外国文化没有，怎么翻译成英文”的困扰。但同时，简洁或简单也会造成翻译的困难，余华写得不一定很具体，如果不小心处理，平易近人有可能就会变成平淡无奇。比如说《活着》（To Live）(6) 中提到了“羊”，那是 sheep 还是 goat ？如果是sheep，会不会是 lamb ？是一岁的羊还是三岁的羊？书里没有清楚地交代。《活着》的译者可能没搞清楚这个羊是 sheep、goat 还是 lamb，译本里会看到一些不那么一致的提法。再比如我最近翻译的《四月三日事件》中，男主人公很关注一个叫 白雪的女子，有一天，他注意到 白雪穿着红衣服。“红衣服”不是很具体的说法，是什么红衣服？是裤子、衬衣、大衣还是外套？如果翻译成 red clothes，那不能让读者想到她长什么样，英语读者不太习惯这个说法。遇到这种情况，我会发邮件给余华： 在你心目中，那是什么样的红衣服？还有《在细雨中呼喊》中，故事发生在一个叫南门的乡村， 从南门村到县城有一条小路。“小路”也是比较难翻译的，是 small road 还是 little road ？是用泥土还是水泥铺的？他并没有说明，外国人难以想象那是什么样的小路。我问了余华，才知道是path， 而不是 road。余华小说的很多句子没有清晰的语法结构， 因为叙述者往往不是文学家，而是像《活着》中福贵那样的农民和《第七天》中 杨飞那样的普通职员。他们用很通俗的语言讲故事，可能一句话就包含了三四件事情，几件事情只是简单地连接在一起。如果直接翻译成英文，英美读者就会觉得这个句子没有什么逻辑，而是简单的拼凑。我阅读我的译文初稿时，每每觉得还要做一些工作才能让故事更容易为英语读者接受，为此，我会稍微增加一些逻辑词，比如说加上 and、although 等连接词，以符合英语读者的接受习惯。 所以翻译余华作品一方面似乎很简单，一个段落、一页、一章没有太多困难，但另一方面， 读自己译文时就会觉得还得下大力气进行完善。

杨：就您所知，余华作品在英美的接受和影响情况如何？

白：影响情况难以判断。影响表现为被别的作家模仿，他们发现一个同行写的东西很好，然后使用同样的写法。目前我还没发现哪位中国作家在西方有着这样的影响。但接受肯定是有的，一些重要的报纸、杂志会刊发书评。现在，余华、莫言、苏童和阎连科等作家在国外会有媒体关注， 也有一定的读者，但他们的作品到现在为止都没有成为畅销书。据说唯一畅销的是科幻小说《三体》，比较严肃、传统的文学作品可能都还没有取得突破。 余华的书在国外卖得不错，其中卖得最好的应该是《活着》。很多人喜欢这本小说，故事本身很有趣，同时呈现了中国几十年的历史，仿佛一本简明的历史教科书。而且还有电影，有些人会先看电影，然后再看原著。虽然《活着》的故事发生在中国，但故事本身比较具有普世性，外国读者即便不了解中国历史，也会被这个故事感动。福贵热爱生命，在苦难面前保持乐观，我想很多人会认同这种人生态度。 《十个词汇里的中国》也受到广泛的好评， 很多人给朋友推荐这本书。这本书可读性也很强， 有很多有意思的小故事，谈到“毛泽东时代”、改革开放时代，时间跨度大，却又不像严肃文学那么难懂。虽然是作者的主观视角，但故事真实、生动。读者一般都会很喜欢这本书。

杨：莫言小说在西方的反响和接受也不尽如人意吗？

白：莫言获得诺贝尔奖后，读者肯定是增加了，但我感觉他也没有一本书能够引起特别关注， 或者让人特别兴奋。莫言获奖后在西方引起了某种程度的“莫言热”，但我不知道有多少人真心喜欢他的作品。女性读者恐怕尤其不太容易接受莫言小说所描写的暴力和丑陋。每次诺贝尔文学奖评出后，有些读者可能觉得有责任去读一读获奖者的书，起码要读一本，但这并不意味着他们会读他全部的作品。

杨：余华或其他中国作家有没有可能获得诺贝尔文学奖？译者的作用是否重要？

白：莫言获得诺贝尔文学奖说明中国作家和中国文学的国际影响力提高了，其他中国作家能否获得诺贝尔文学奖很难预测。译者、编辑、出版社都是重要的因素，另外宣传和营销也起着关键的作用。莫言的成功在一定程度上要归功于他的英文译者葛浩文（Howard Goldblatt）。葛浩文翻译了四十多本中国小说，在美国、英国等以英文为母语的国家，他的贡献很大，没有他，很多中国小说根本无法进入英文读者的视野。

杨：中国作家的写作与西方读者的接受存在差异，翻译时译者如何去平衡？

白：中国作家希望他们的作品能够获得不同读者的喜爱和欣赏，尽量扩大作品的读者群，但 凡是有兴趣阅读中国小说英译本的英文读者，一 般都受过良好教育，文学品位较高，他们不一定 需要作者把事情说得很直 白，而更愿意自己去琢 磨，希望有独立思考的余地。在西方编辑看来， 作者不用那么直接地告诉读者，只需展示一下就 行了，只要展示得比较传神，读者自然能够明 白。译者还是要尊重原文，如果原著“告诉”比较多， “展示”比较少，也只能接受现实，而不能单方面改动原作。

杨：您对葛浩文译本中多处删改原文的翻译策略有何看法？

白：我曾把葛浩文的译文与原著进行对比， 确实有一些不一样的地方，我不确定是不是因为他用的中文版本跟正式出版的版本有所差异。 葛浩文可能有自己的理论考量，他认为中国缺乏编辑文化。西方国家的编辑一般是很有权威的，他们可以告诉哪怕是很著名的作家：这个地方写得不好，需要修改，或者我有建议希望你能考虑。这样修订稿跟交给编辑的初稿可能有相当大的改动。而中国的编辑没有这么高的权威，比较有名的作家完全可以告诉编辑：一点也不能更改！鉴于这种情况，葛浩文会觉得译本还是需要一定的编辑工作，既然中国编辑不承担这个责任， 那么这个责任就要由译者承担。比如，莫言一本书的中文版长达五百多页，翻译成英文可能有六百多页，那么出版社可能会告诉葛浩文，我们不会出版这么长的书，你要想办法把它缩短一点， 那他就会删除几章或者删除部分内容。

杨：您自己的翻译中有没有遇到这方面的问题？

白：我对《十个词汇里的中国》的个别地方进行了改动，其他译本基本上没有。《十个词汇里的中国》的编辑通过我把她的想法传达给余华，请他做出相应的修改，但是不多。我自己不太做大幅度的修改，可能是没有那么自信，不觉得自己能够判断什么是成功或不成功的写作，所以一般还是尊重原文。

杨：请您谈谈对《红楼梦》几个译本的看法。

白：我最熟悉的就是霍克斯（David Hawkes，1923—2009）和闵福德（John Minford）的版本 (1)。我还知道乔利（Henry B. Joly，1857—1898）的版本(2) 及 杨宪益的版本 (3)，但没怎么读。霍克斯版本在1973 年出版第一册，当时我非常喜欢，现在也喜欢。我在英国长大，霍克斯是英国汉学家，当时感觉他的译文很通顺，很容易接受。后来搬到美国， 再翻阅他的译本，用来教学生，结果美国学生认为英国味道很浓，好像故事不是发生在 18 世纪的中国，而是发生在 18 世纪的英国。这是霍克斯译本的一个问题。当然这其实是英语本身的问题，要么是美国的口语，要么是英国的口语。美国的口语美国人很适应，英国人就不适应，反之亦然。另外《红楼梦》有同性恋的内容，霍克斯的翻译一般比较可靠地反映了故事的文化背景，但他翻译中国传统文化中同性恋的替代概念“龙阳之兴”(4) 时，没有忠实于中国文化传统。“龙阳之兴”在中文里没有贬义，“兴”就是 tendency 或者 interest，可是霍克斯把它翻译成 vice，就有明显的贬义。英国传统文化不接受同性恋，非常排斥，他采取了英国比较流行的态度翻译这个词，我想他对待同性恋的这种态度不适合《红楼梦》，因为清代还是比较接受同性恋的。这是他翻译中的一个美中不足之处吧。但是霍克斯的诗词翻译非常好，这些诗文翻译成英文后仍然是非常好的诗词。总体而言，霍克斯对《红楼梦》翻译的贡献是很大的。

杨：您在课堂上使用《红楼梦》哪个译本？ 学生们对它评价如何？ 白：我给学生讲课时用的是霍克斯译本，因为容易买到。我的学生总的来说不太喜欢《红楼梦》，他们记不住人名。霍克斯将人名对应为英文里的单词，读者可以较少面对那些外国名字，会觉得亲切一点，比如 Patience（平儿）、Aroma（袭人）等。另外，《红楼梦》很长，一般不能在一学期内讲完，最多只能学习第一册，还不到全书的四分之一，学生会为此感到沮丧：花了好几个星期读了那么多内容，结果还只是全书的一小部分。

杨：近五十年中国文学在英美的翻译与传播情况如何？

白：西方 20 世纪 60 年代以前比较流行一种看法，就是认为中国古代小说没有西方小说那么好。外国人不太容易欣赏中国的这些作品，因为西方翻译家认为中国小说有缺陷，没有必要把全部内容都翻译成英文，他们有理由、有权力删掉一些多余的诗词，或者删掉故事太长、情节无聊的内容。20 世纪 40 年代韦利（Arthur Waley， 1889—1966）把《西游记》的三分之一翻译成英文，书名是“Monkey”，(5) 他认为《西游记》有很多重复的内容，没有必要翻译全文。这在 20 世纪前半叶是一个比较普遍的态度。《红楼梦》也有一个缩写本，只有 300 页。一个转折点可能是霍克斯在 1973 年出版的《红楼梦》译本。霍克斯认为他有责任把《红楼梦》的所有内容翻译成英文，他的“企鹅古典系列”（Penguin Classics）版本是最流行的《红楼梦》英译本。自此，别的翻译家也大多采取了相同的态度，很认真地把中国古代小说完整地翻译成英文。芝加哥大学教授余国藩（Anthony C. Yu，1938— 2015）在 1977 年出版了《西游记》新译本的第一册，全书一共有四册，1983 年出齐。(6)《三国演义》的完整译本 (7) 于 1994 年出版，译者罗慕士（Moss Roberts）是纽约大学的教授。另外一个获得好评的译本是《金瓶梅》，译者芮效卫（David Tod Roy，1933—2016）也是芝加哥大学教授，他用了二十年来翻译这本书，第一册于 1993 年(1) 出版，一册有二十回，最后一册在 2013 年出版。《金瓶梅》译本的特点是芮效卫做了很多注释，《金瓶梅》英译本全五册的总页数是 2500 多页，注释多达 4400 多条。

最近 50 年来，把全部的原著呈现给读者好像是一个比较流行的现象，好像只有文言小说没有这么做，可能因为文言小说没有一个很整体的统一（unity）。现在的情况是，一方面，有些很完整且翻译得非常认真的译本，读者不一定很多， 因为他们读完这些作品要花很长的时间；另外一方面，有一些新的选集针对普通的学生，普通的读者。总的来讲，无论是全译本还是节译本，这些翻译家都是用比较同情的态度去翻译的，不像一百年以前的译者，总是对中国古典小说进行批评和指责。

如英国的蓝诗玲（Julia Lovell）、韩斌（Nicky Harman），美国的译者更多。80 年代生活在中国的几位译者做的一些翻译，外文出版社推出的“熊猫丛书”在国外发行有问题，没做什么宣传，很 难买到。现在一般是外国人把中文作品翻译成自己的母语，在国外的出版社出版，并且会做一定的宣传，因此提高了作品的知名度。

杨：现在翻译中国文学作品的译者有汉学家、外籍普通学者、外籍华人、中国本土学者等等， 您认为最为理想的译者是谁？

白：汉学家一般是大学教授，但教授不一定是好译者。有些人不是教授，但中文英文都很好， 也可以把中国作品翻译成英文。是不是汉学家是次要的，甚至有人认为教授不是最合适的翻译人选，因为他们可能读了太多的学术著作，比较严谨迂腐。较为口语化或生活化的书，博士学位可能无助于准确翻译。译者最好在中国生活过多年， 有较好的语言、文化感觉，知道中国人讲的话是什么意思。我想外国译者把中文作品翻译成自己的母语时比较有优势，因为他们对自己的语言有丰富的感觉和直觉，对于什么是好的翻译、怎样翻译比较成功，心里比较有数。

杨：目前在中国文化对外传播中强调中国声音和中国话语，提倡保留原汁原味。您对“中国作品走出去倾向于异化”的翻译策略和方法有什么看法？

白：我自己的翻译理论很薄弱，只是一个翻译实践者。我没有什么深厚的理念功底，更多靠自己的直觉和感觉，针对具体问题选择归化或者异化，不会一概而论。 我注意到有些译者遇到“山寨”等中国特色词汇时，认为无法用外语表达，最好用拼音。我自己觉得这个办法不好。虽然“copycat”还不能完全代表“山寨”，但比较简洁，比用拼音好，至少传达了原文的一部分味道。比如中国人打招呼说“吃饭了吗”“你回来了”，这些直接翻译成英文就不妥当，我们不这么讲话。虽然它们反映了中国文化，中国人这么说不奇怪，但看译文会觉得奇怪，所以我觉得这种情况直译不一定是个很好的策略。

杨：您为什么翻译中国“80 后”作家韩寒的作品？

白：西蒙与舒斯特公司（Simon & Schuster） 是美国的一家大型出版社，他们想出版韩寒的两本书，并找到了我。我本来没有很关注中国“80后”作家的作品，但认为通过翻译可以更多地了 解他们。出版社首先想出版韩寒的一些博客文章，我读了后觉得他的写作风格比较有趣，与传统的文学作品不同，值得翻译。出版社给我提供了韩寒杂文的台湾版，书名叫《青春》，但我只选了书中的一部分作品，更多的文章直接选自他的博客。我们选的文集书名是《这一代》（This Generation）(2)。他的很多文章写得犀利风趣，但考虑到美国读者的兴趣，有些文章不适合选择进来。例如他谈中国当代诗歌的文章，虽然文章本身很好，但因为美国人不了解中国当代诗歌，所以就放弃了。美国人更有兴趣的是他那些关于政治、社会、文化的杂文。出版社也希望我翻译韩寒的长篇小说《1988：我想和世界谈谈》，但我并不太看好这部在中国炒得很热的小说，所以就没有翻译。

杨：您如何评价韩寒及其作品？

白：他是一位特别的作家，是一代中国青年的代表。他善于独立思考，不会在意主流媒体怎么说、一般百姓怎么想，不肯人云亦云。韩寒的存在也让美国人看到，中国不仅仅有官方的声音， 还有个体自己的声音。 他文笔有趣，有讽刺，有比喻，很巧妙。他的幽默也很有特色，很多时候利用谐音调侃一些社会现象，翻译起来比较困难。我有时候想，如果找不到合适的对应的句子，我宁可舍弃，因为我不想在后边加个注解：这种做法在中文里是很好笑的。

杨：近年来您的翻译取向发生了改变，从小说转向随笔和杂文等非虚构作品，这是为什么？

白：这反映了美国相当一部分读者的兴趣。外国人阅读中国文学作品有一个重要动机，希望借此多了解中国，让他们通过小说接触一个虚拟的中国，还不如让他们接触一个离现实更近、非虚构的中国。曾经有人在《华盛顿邮报》上说：读完一部中国长篇小说之后，感觉与其用小说的形式去反映中国的一些不合理现象，不如干脆写非虚构作品。既然中国的某些现实已经让人眼花缭乱，何必要费尽心思去创造另一个虚拟世界呢？

杨：中国文学“走出去”需要克服哪些困难？ 中国当代文学在西方的前景如何？

白：中国文学的翻译、出版和海外接受都不够理想，需要克服的困难很多，主要问题有：翻译质量、创作倾向、文化差异、版权代理、推广力度、营销手段等等。 由于中国经济实力的强大，外国人普遍认为应该加强对中国的了解，西方媒体非常关注中国的动向，海外出版社比过去更积极地推销与中国有关的书籍。读几本当代作家的小说好像是一个比较便利的办法，所以我对中国当代文学在西方的前景还是持乐观态度的。

杨：您最近在做什么翻译或研究工作？近期有什么打算吗？

白：翻译只是我的一部分工作，作品暂时不多，翻译量不大，一般两三年才翻译一本书，我对自己的翻译量没有太高的期待。我现在正在翻译一个回忆录，是艾青儿子艾未未写的一部非虚构作品，讲述他父亲和他自己的故事。他是一位重要的艺术家，我对他的回忆录饶有兴味。 我还会继续研究明清文学，也许会写一两篇跟《聊斋志异》有关的论文，谈谈书里涉及的谣言和传闻的故事，这些在明清社会还是很流行的。

杨：谢谢！白教授耐心细致的解答！

白：谢谢！我很高兴接受采访！