访谈提纲 Interview with Martin Woesler by Duan Yuanyuan

1 让·莫内讲席教授

吴教授您好，非常感谢您拨冗接受我的访谈！首先恭喜您获得“让·莫内讲席教授”荣誉称号，此地位是欧盟对从事欧洲一体化教学与研究学者的最高学术承认！您真可谓是一位欧盟的学术大使！据悉，该项目申请难度颇大，中国今年只有湖南师范大学、四川大学和中国政法大学三所大学获得资助。您可否借此次获奖的机缘，说明你眼中中欧的学术交流呢？不客气！的确，我把自己看作是中欧之间的“文化大使”，把这次获得“让·莫内讲席教授”称号看作是在华工作、学习、生活近三十年的一个阶段性总结。许多西方人认为在华生活是一个极大的挑战，对此我并不否认，但是挑战之余，我还从中看到了变革[What kind of transformation are we talking about here? ]的必要性，而且变革只有通过接触和交流才能实现。中国应该有更多的欧洲学者，中国也应该成为德国每一所大学亟需讨论的议题。 You're welcome! Indeed, I regard myself as a "cultural ambassador" between China and Europe, and I regard winning the title of "Professor Jean Monnet Lecture" as a phased summary of nearly 30 years of work, study and life in China. Many Westerners think that living in China is a great challenge, which I don't deny, but besides the challenge, I also see the necessity of change, and change can only be realized through contact and communication. There should be more European scholars in China, and China should also become an urgent topic for every German university to discuss. 欧盟委员会2020年在全球范围内授予了70个让·莫内教席，且每所大学最多可获一个名额。中国境内大学上次获得还是在2016年。“让·莫内讲席教授”传统上主要关注欧盟相关研究。现在欧盟委员会把这个奖项授予在中国任教的德国汉学家，这说明欧盟委员会已经认识到批判性地对比其它国家和欧盟发展模式的重要性。 In 2020, the European Commission awarded 70 Jean Monnet chairs worldwide, and each university can get up to one place. The last time universities in China won it was in 2016. Traditionally, "Professor Jean Monnet" mainly focuses on EU-related research. Now the European Commission has awarded this award to German sinologists who teach in China, which shows that the European Commission has realized the importance of critically comparing the development models of other countries with those of the European Union. 我不想把欧盟在中国的表现作为中国的反面典型，而是用批判性的眼光看待。中国学生正是通过批判性思维树立价值观。我曾做过调查，结果显示，很多中国学生认为欧盟的政治一体化还没有成功，英国脱欧反映了欧盟的软弱，但我想传达的知识是，欧盟已经在运作了，只是方式不同而已：即追求的不是快速而精干的决策过程，而是等待、讨论、参与和妥协。 I don't want to take the EU's performance in China as a negative example of China, but look at it critically. It is through critical thinking that Chinese students establish values. I have done a survey, and the results show that many Chinese students think that the political integration of the EU has not been successful, and Brexit reflects the weakness of the EU, but the knowledge I want to convey is that the EU is already in operation, only in different ways: it is not a fast and lean decision-making process, but waiting, discussing, participating and compromising. 同时，英国脱欧正表明欧盟每个成员都有随时离开的自由，这被视为一种成就。所以欧洲未必比中国差，只是不同而已。而当中国学生乐于接受不同的时候，他们的个性就会得到发展，成熟起来，适合国际就业市场。因此，我很鼓励学生去欧洲交换学习一两个学期。 At the same time, Brexit shows that every EU member has the freedom to leave at any time, which is regarded as an achievement. Therefore, Europe is not necessarily worse than China, it is just different. When Chinese students are willing to accept differences, their personalities will develop and mature, which is suitable for the international job market. Therefore, I encourage students to go to Europe for exchange study for one or two semesters. 申请“让·莫内讲席”项目时，我就在材料中表明该项目的落脚点在于中国和欧洲的比较，课题还囊括不同的教育体系、社会各领域的数字化以及对数据隐私的保护。通过该项目，我会推荐几名德国同事来中国短期或者长期工作，也会推荐中国同事去欧洲短期访学。并针对该项目，设置课程专题对比中欧近来的对外政策，以期激励中国塑造更加完整的海外形象。 When applying for the "Jean Monnet Lecture" project, I indicated in the materials that the foothold of the project lies in the comparison between China and Europe, and the topic also includes different education systems, digitalization in various fields of society and protection of data privacy. Through this project, I will recommend several German colleagues to work in China for a short or long time, and I will also recommend Chinese colleagues to visit Europe for a short time. In view of this project, a course topic is set up to compare the recent foreign policies of China and Europe, in order to encourage China to shape a more complete overseas image.

2 《红楼梦》首次全译本

2.您的代表作是《红楼梦》德语全译本，您是如何走上汉学之路的呢？可否谈谈与史华慈合译《红楼梦》的初衷？How did you begin to learn Chinese and how to stick to the path of sinology for so many years? Why did you choose to translate 红楼梦？《红楼梦》的意义大于个人，是一件永恒的艺术品，应该提升到“世界遗产”的地位。目前，欧洲只有半数国家出版《红楼梦》译本。1989年我刚上大学的时候，德文版《红楼梦》也只有弗兰茨-库恩的节译本，共40章，只有原文体量的三分之一。与库恩的其他中国优秀小说译本在语言上几乎没有差别，带有浓厚的德国地方色彩。我也注意到了译文的不足之处。他把《红楼梦》书名中的“楼”翻译成“城堡”。这种译法也许比较适合欧洲读者的阅读口味，但就中国文化、中国历史、中国环境而言，我认为不太准确。这些不足之处也可解释为什么大卫-霍克斯和约翰-闵福德的译本在德国广受欢迎。 A Dream of Red Mansions is more meaningful than an individual. It is an eternal work of art and should be promoted to the status of "World Heritage". At present, only half of European countries have translated a Dream of Red Mansions. When I first went to college in 1989, the German version of a Dream of Red Mansions was only a flantz-Kuhn excerpt, with a total of 40 chapters, only one third of the original volume. There is almost no difference in language with Kuhn's other excellent Chinese novel translations, with strong German local color. I also noticed the shortcomings of the translation. He translated "Lou" in the title of A Dream of Red Mansions into "Castle". This translation may be more suitable for European readers, but I don't think it is accurate in terms of Chinese culture, Chinese history and Chinese environment. These shortcomings can also explain why the translations of David Hawkes and John Minford are so popular in Germany. XX年/契机我开始重新翻译《红楼梦》。也是通过这个项目，我申请到了北京大学德意志学术交流中心（Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst，简称DAAD）奖学金。因此我也得以在北京大学学习X个月。[When did you study in Peking University? And for how long?]当时的选拔委员会主席是沃尔夫冈·顾彬（Wolfgang Kubin，中文名顾彬），他后来成为我的博士生导师之一。随后在北京，我多次参观了红楼梦研究所。参观之时张#送给我一本《红楼梦》辞典。后来回到德国，我与马汉茂（Helmut Martin）合作。从他那里我了解到，史华慈（Rainer Schwarz）已经将小说前80章翻译出来，并将自己的译文交给他出版，马汉茂让我审阅了史华兹的译本。不过译文暂未达到出版质量，[Can you give more details of why it can not be published yet? ]还需修订。 XX Year/Opportunity I began to retranslate A Dream of Red Mansions. It was also through this project that I applied for a scholarship from Deutscher Akademischer Austausch Dienst (DAAD) of Peking University. So I was able to study at Peking University for X months. At that time, the chairman of the selection committee was Wolfgang Kubin (Chinese name Gu Bin), who later became one of my doctoral supervisors. Later in Beijing, I visited the Dream of Red Mansions Research Institute many times. During the visit, Zhang # gave me a dictionary of a Dream of Red Mansions. Later, when I returned to Germany, I cooperated with Helmut Martin. I learned from him that Rainer Schwarz had translated the first 80 chapters of the novel and gave him his own translation for publication. Ma Hanmao asked me to review Schwartz's translation. However, the translation has not yet reached the publishing quality and needs to be revised. 这次翻译尝试于我而言具有重大意义，我认为修改史华兹的译本使其达到出版水平比自己独立完成120章的翻译更重要。我花了几年时间修订史华兹的译文，随后自己翻译了后40回。然后按照前80回的风格重新修改我翻译的后40回，其中人名的翻译统一采用正式的拼音系统及其拼写方法，且并非采用标准的汉语拼音，而是按照德语书写方式，这样做的目的是尽可能地吸引更多读者的关注，且避免读者出现行文风格“跳脱”感受。 This translation attempt is of great significance to me. I think it is more important to revise Schwartz's translation to the publishing level than to complete the translation of 120 chapters independently. It took me several years to revise Schwartz's translation, and then I translated the last 40 times myself. Then I revised the last 40 times of my translation according to the style of the first 80 times, Among them, the translation of names adopts the formal Pinyin system and its spelling method, and does not adopt the standard Chinese Pinyin, but according to the German writing method. The purpose of this is to attract more readers' attention as much as possible, and to avoid readers' feeling of "jumping" in writing style. 现在，读者可获得完整、精细的译本，译本必要处附有注释。之后在XX年X月[When will the fifth edition be published? ]会出版第五版，该版本会根据读者意见和自己对原文的重新理解再进行改进。比如在我未出版的120章全译本中，很多人名的翻译也考虑到了名字的中文含义。[What amendments will you make in the fifth edition of the Chamber? Could you please list some? ] Now, readers can get a complete and detailed translation, with notes where necessary. Then [when will the fifth edition be published? ] will publish the fifth edition, which will be improved according to readers' opinions and their own re-understanding of the original text. For example, in my unpublished full translation of 120 chapters, the translation of many names also takes into account the Chinese meaning of names. [What amendments will you make in the fifth edition of the Chamber? Could you please list some? ]

3 欧洲红学

3.您曾在国内红学权威刊物《红楼梦学刊》上发表过两篇文章，以德国人的视角叙述西方对《红楼梦》的了解，并介绍德译本情况以及西方学者的理解及评价。从这两篇文章可以看出，《红楼梦》在西方的传播已变换形式，由文本本身的传播向舞台剧等多模态形态发展。请问现今欧洲的红学研究、传播现状如何？您认为《红楼梦》对国内外读者有何影响？小说是“时代精神”的体现。《红楼梦》于1791年首次出版，其创作背景是中国少数民族之一的满族统治下的清朝，曹家或受康熙宠信或备受雍正冷落以致抄家没落。囿于时代背景，作者在当时无法公开批判帝制皇权，但在小说中，他在家庭日益衰败（从事道教、闲暇、诗歌创作、艺术和音乐，而不是为了能够谋生而学习）和自己没有实现作为家族继承人的期望中，寻求被迫害的根源。这种对名家望族没落之路的描写使我们想起了契诃夫的小说。此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的纪实性历史小说《铁皮鼓》(1959年)非常相似。最值得一提的是《红楼梦》和托马斯·曼的《布登勃洛克一家》（1901年）。两部小说都描写了出生富贵的年轻一代人的颓废、没落、溃散，以及一个家族的社会地位和经济状况的逐渐没落与覆灭。托马斯·曼的小说是以资产阶级社会的巨大变革为背景，而曹雪芹的作品则选取了某个朝代的更迭时期作为时代背景，在其中帝王利益与家族利益发生了冲突! 有趣的是，两部作品中的主要角色都挑选了英年早逝的类似人物。《红楼梦》里林黛玉为情而亡，秦可卿因乱伦自尽，贾元春和妙玉也是突然死亡。在《布登勃洛克一家》里克拉拉在婚后不久即死于脑结核，托马斯在牙科手术后去世，汉诺死于伤寒。两部作品都在结构和主题上运用了影射等大量的艺术手法，以丰富的故事进展描绘出一幅衰败的景象。因此，这种并行发展令人惊讶，很难说《布登勃洛克一家》的创作没受到《红楼梦》的影响。 The novel is the embodiment of "the spirit of the times". A Dream of Red Mansions was first published in 1791. Its creation background was the Qing Dynasty under the rule of Manchu, one of China's ethnic minorities. The Cao family was either favored by Kangxi or neglected by Yongzheng, resulting in the decline of property ownership. Constrained by the background of the times, the author could not publicly criticize the imperial power at that time, but in the novel, he sought the root of persecution in the declining family (engaged in Taoism, leisure, poetry creation, art and music, instead of studying in order to make a living) and his failure to realize his expectation of being the heir of the family. This decadent description of declining families reminds us of Chekhov's novels. In addition, the detailed description of the life of all social strata in the early Qing Dynasty in A Dream of Red Mansions is very similar to Gunter Grass's documentary historical novel Tin Drum (1959). The most noteworthy ones are A Dream of Red Mansions and Thomas Mann's Budenbrock Family (1901). Both novels describe the decadence, decline and collapse of the wealthy young generation, as well as the gradual decline and collapse of a family's social status and economic situation. Thomas Mann's novels are set against the background of great changes in bourgeois society, while Cao Xueqin's works choose the change period of a certain dynasty as the background of the times, in which the interests of emperors and families conflict! Interestingly, the main characters in the two works have chosen similar characters who died young. In a Dream of Red Mansions, Lin Daiyu died of love, Qin Keqing committed suicide due to incest, and Jia Yuanchun and Miaoyu also died suddenly. In the Budenbrock Family, Clara died of brain tuberculosis shortly after marriage, Thomas died after dental surgery, and Hanno died of typhoid fever. Both works use a lot of artistic techniques such as innuendo in structure and theme, and depict a declining scene with rich story progress. Therefore, this parallel development is surprising. It is hard to say that the creation of the Budenbroc Family was not influenced by a Dream of Red Mansions.

4.您曾在欧洲多所学校任教，请问现今欧洲汉学的研究状况如何？ You have taught in many European schools. What is the current research status of Sinology in Europe?

5 为何从古典文学的翻译转向中国现当代文学的翻译？

除了《红楼梦》这一代表译作之外，您还翻译了包括鲁迅、许地山、郁达夫、朱自清、冰心、巴金、钱锺书、韩少功、贾平凹等在内的一批著名作家的优秀作品。可否谈谈为什么选择不同时代作家的作品？您又是如何再现他们不同的写作风格？[This question intends to know about why you choose to translate works of those writers. Is it because of personal interests or the publisher asking you to do so?

I think the section of Xu Zechen serves as good interview answers. As Chinese readers, we are desperate to know what things are like from Westerners’ perspective. ]

为何从古典文学的翻译转向中国现当代文学的翻译？ Why did you shift from the translation of classical literature to the translation of modern and contemporary Chinese literature? 不同时代的作品反映出不同的时代背景，这些作品对我个人而言是很好的窗口，可以窥探不同时期中国的社会面貌，还可与同期的欧洲文学进行比较。贾平凹作为20世纪80年代以来中国最伟大的作家之一，英译本很少。究其原因，首先在于他的作品植根于山西农村，带有浓重的地域风俗习惯。首先读懂原文对译者来说就是一项挑战，更不用提在译入语中找到对应的表达。我在翻译贾平凹的XX中就遇到了这个问题。。。。。。。。[Can you list some difficulties when translating Jia Pingwa’s or any other author’s works? We like the details.] The works of different times reflect different backgrounds of the times. These works are a good window for me personally. I can spy on the social outlook of China in different periods and compare them with European literature in the same period. Jia Pingwa, as one of the greatest writers in China since 1980s, has few English versions. The reason lies in the fact that his works are rooted in Shanxi rural areas and have strong regional customs. It is a challenge for translators to understand the original text first, not to mention finding the corresponding expression in the target language. I encountered this problem in translating Jia Pingwa's XX. . . . . . . . 对于译者来说，翻译不同作者的作品时面对的翻译难点不同。而不同的译者有着不同的处理方式，这也能解释为何同一部作品有几个翻译版本，且翻译策略各有不同。我深知译者的文化背景对译本翻译策略的选择有很大影响，所以有些作品即便存在译本，我还是选择重新翻译。从鲁迅的短篇小说中，我们可以读出作者内心的矛盾：文学能改变世界吗？难道一定要身体力行才能改变世界吗？难道连唤醒那些像阿Q一样任由自己被牵着走，任人宰割的昏昏欲睡的同胞们也能做到吗？当无法改变自己和社会的命运时，唤醒他们还有什么用呢？作为译者，我们如何再现这种矛盾心理，如何处理鲁迅在翻译中有些古板的早期白话，如何与他对日常政治事件的论述。这些都是翻译中必不可免的问题。目前已有的鲁迅作品德译本在这些方面的处理方式多样。巴金在受到批评后修改了三部曲之一的《家》，删除了缠足现象。在翻译这部作品的过程中，译者必须决定是翻译原版还是删减后的版本。 For translators, translation difficulties are different when translating works of different authors. Different translators have different ways of dealing with it, which can explain why there are several translated versions of the same work and the translation strategies are different. I know that the translator's cultural background has a great influence on the choice of translation strategies, so I choose to retranslate some works even if there are translations. From Lu Xun's short stories, we can read the author's inner contradiction: Can literature change the world? Do you have to practice to change the world? Can we even wake up those sleepy compatriots who let themselves be led and slaughtered like Ah Q? What's the use of awakening them when they can't change their own destiny and that of society? As translators, how do we reproduce this ambivalence, how do we deal with Lu Xun's rigid early vernacular in translation, and how do we communicate with his exposition of daily political events? These are all inevitable problems in translation. At present, the existing German versions of Lu Xun's works deal with these aspects in various ways. After being criticized, Ba Jin revised Home, one of the trilogy, and deleted foot binding. In the process of translating this work, the translator must decide whether to translate the original version or the abridged version. 我个人很喜欢徐则臣的作品。在2009年（北上2015年才出版）[Is this book called <北上>？]的法兰克福书展上，他的故事《北上》受到广泛好评。事实上，他的生活经历与我有些重叠部分。我们都在北京大学学习过，只不过他比我早入学一点（多久）。当时校园里有一种亚文化，博士生们住在餐厅旁边的闲置房间里，因为他们对大学里的人、办事流程了如指掌，而且在独立的诗歌和艺术界也有联系，所以每逢有聚会，他们都很抢手，大家竞相邀请他们参加聚会。那时的大学涌现着一股乐观主义的精神，起初门外涌现出私营商业市场，后来校园里传出“开公司”的口号。那时，毕业生不愿毕业就被分入特定的工作岗位，身上的自由和责任感促使他们闯一闯这个世界。故事里拿着盗版产品的街边小贩和软件开发产品的学生先锋也是这幅画的一部分。徐则臣将这种气氛真实地捕捉到，令人信服。他笔下的人物在我们心上扎根，爱上他们，学会在生活中打拼。也是这种情感体验上的共鸣促使我翻译《北上》这部作品。 Personally, I like Xu Zechen's works very much. At the Frankfurt Book Fair in 2009 (published in 2015), his story "Going North" was widely praised. In fact, his life experience overlaps with mine. We all studied at Peking University, but he entered school a little earlier than me. At that time, there was a subculture on campus. Doctoral students lived in idle rooms next to restaurants. Because they knew the people and procedures in the university like the back of their hand, and they also had contacts in independent poetry and art circles, they were very popular whenever there was a party, and everyone invited them to attend the party. At that time, there was a spirit of optimism in universities. At first, private commercial markets emerged outside the doors. Later, the slogan of "starting a company" came out on campus. At that time, graduates were assigned to specific jobs without graduating, and their freedom and sense of responsibility prompted them to enter the world. Street vendors with pirated products and student pioneers with software development products in the story are also part of this painting. Xu Zechen captured this atmosphere truly and convincingly. His characters take root in our hearts, fall in love with them and learn to work hard in life. It is also this resonance in emotional experience that prompted me to translate the work "North".

6 跨文化身份

6. 作为汉学家和翻译家，您的跨文化身份让你置身于东西方文明之间。当您从欧洲文化和文学背景来到中国的文化和文学背景中，在两种迥异的语言之间进行转换，是否感到自己的思维方式和行文风格发生了些许改变？[This question asks you whether living in China for almost eight years affects your translating ideologies? Is there any difference if you only learned Chinese but never lived in China for such a long time? ]

7 中西合璧

有人认为中华文化走出去最好的译介模式是“中西合璧”，如葛浩文和林丽君的译作在国内外产生了较大影响。您对此有何看法？[I think this answer is rather insufficient. ] 什么是理想的译者？韦努蒂认为译者应该是隐身的，看不见的。如果读者没有注意到所读文本是一个译本，那么译者就达到了完美的境界。我认为，原语文化的译者在理解原文上的确更占优势，但是在传达上就不如来自目标语文化的译者，只有这样的译者才能向目标读者传达想要传达的形象。已经掌握了两种文化和语言的人来做译者是最合适不过的。当然，如果译者本身就是作家就更好了，这样翻译出来的译文想必更贴近原作。 What is an ideal translator? Venuti believes that translators should be invisible and invisible. If the reader doesn't notice that the text he reads is a translation, then the translator has reached a perfect state. In my opinion, the translator of the source language culture does have an advantage in understanding the original text, but he is not as good as the translator from the target language culture in conveying it. Only in this way can the translator convey the image he wants to convey to the target readers. People who have mastered both cultures and languages are the most suitable translators. Of course, it would be better if the translator himself was a writer, so the translated version must be closer to the original. 译文总是一种新的创造，它在文字上不能再模仿原文，而在功能、效果等方面却可以再现原文的特点，所以葛浩文和林丽君这样的“中西合璧”的组合在翻译极具中国特色的作品时应该会比较合适。 Translation is always a new creation. It can no longer imitate the original text in words, but can reproduce the characteristics of the original text in terms of function and effect. Therefore, the combination of "Chinese and Western combination" such as Ge Haowen and Lin Lijun should be more appropriate when translating works with Chinese characteristics.

8 中华文化外译传播

8. 根据您的实践经验和理性思考，中华文化外译传播有哪些成功因素?

 首先，对于普通读者而言，接受《红楼梦》第一步就必须有可读的译本，因此《红楼梦》在其它没有译本的国家的传播有赖于译者的工作。我认为等待引进不如主动输出。这样成功的例子不是没有。20世纪80年代，杨宪益倡议出版熊猫丛书，意在向国外译介中国当代、现代和古代的优秀作品，所出版的杂志和从书在国外有相当大的影响，几乎成为很长时期内国外研究中国汉学、对中国文学有兴趣的人了解中国文学的唯一的窗口。因此，中国相关机构可借鉴当时的经验，在还没有译本的欧洲国家作出尝试。

First of all, for ordinary readers, the first step to accept a Dream of Red Mansions is to have a readable translation, so the dissemination of a Dream of Red Mansions in other countries without a translation depends on the translator's work. I think it is better to take the initiative to export than to wait for import. There are not no such successful examples. In 1980s, Yang Xianyi initiated the publication of Panda Series, aiming at translating and introducing excellent works of contemporary, modern and ancient China to foreign countries. The published magazines and books have a considerable influence abroad, and have almost become the only window for people who study Chinese Sinology abroad and are interested in Chinese literature to understand Chinese literature for a long time. Therefore, relevant Chinese institutions can learn from the experience at that time and try in European countries that have not yet translated them. 其次，西方尤其是美国的《红楼梦》研究开始用现代理论解读《红楼梦》，如 “感觉”、“同性恋”等。因此在每隔几年举办一次的红学会议上，整理以前的研究，撰写一部西方学术界与小说接触史就显得十分重要。 Secondly, the study of "A Dream of Red Mansions" in the West, especially in the United States, began to interpret "A Dream of Red Mansions" with modern theories, such as "feeling" and "homosexuality". Therefore, it is very important to sort out the previous research and write a history of contact between western academic circles and novels at the Redology Conference held every few years.

 我很早就开始关注《红楼梦》在西方的接受情况。其刚进入西方世界之时并不是一片叫好，直至被列为世界文学的一部分，这一过程持续了很多年。一方面是因为完整的译本直至XX年才出现，另一方面是因为许多西方汉学家和译者的民族中心主义世界观，他们认为只有本土的文学才称得上世界文学，而对别国文学视若无睹。在我看来，跨越时间空间，对优秀作品的认同还是同样的，因此《红楼梦》应该成为世界文化遗产。

I began to pay attention to the acceptance of A Dream of Red Mansions in the West very early. When it first entered the western world, it was not applauded until it was listed as a part of world literature, which lasted for many years. On the one hand, the complete translation did not appear until XX years; On the other hand, it is because many western sinologists and translators have an ethnocentric world outlook. They think that only local literature can be called world literature and turn a blind eye to other countries' literature. In my opinion, across time and space, the recognition of excellent works is the same, so A Dream of Red Mansions should become a world cultural heritage.

 最后，中国文化作品的译介研究不能仅仅依靠本土研究者、译者，还需要目标语国家的同人鼎力相助。就《红楼梦》而言，对其翻译的研究不在少数，但遗憾的是，其中研究者多为中国学者，他们研究时没有与本土学者交流。但我认为，为了提升学术质量，中国学者的学术成果在发表前应由本土学者审查。无论如何，无论在中国还是在西方，一个新的领域就是小说的跨文化研究。

Finally, the translation and introduction of Chinese cultural works can not only rely on local researchers and translators, but also need the full help of colleagues in the target language countries. As far as A Dream of Red Mansions is concerned, there are not a few studies on its translation, but unfortunately, most of the researchers are Chinese scholars, and they did not communicate with local scholars during their research. However, I think that in order to improve the academic quality, the academic achievements of Chinese scholars should be reviewed by local scholars before publication. In any case, whether in China or in the West, a new field is the cross-cultural study of novels.

9 提建议

您自1990年代来华留学，在华生活多年。作为中西文化的“摆渡人”，您是如何坚持翻译中国经典著作的？您对中德文化交流的未来发展前景有何预见？[What is the future of China-Germany Exchange in your opinion? ]是否可以给年青一代的汉学家、翻译家提出一些建议？

 题中的“摆渡人”形象很好，“摆渡人”的形象历来是正面的，在欧洲也是俗称的“好听话”，这也是世界文学中的典型主题。在近5000年前（公元前2600年）的文学作品《吉尔伽美什史诗》就讲述了摆渡人乌尔-萨纳比带国王渡过死亡之水的故事。摆渡人是两个世界的纽带，起着至关重要的作用。其实，译者本身就是一个“摆渡人”，他/她将作者的思想境界、梦境、想象告诉读者，把读者带入目标语环境之中。

The image of "ferryman" in the title is very good. The image of "ferryman" has always been positive. It is also commonly known as "good obedience" in Europe, which is also a typical theme in world literature. Nearly 5,000 years ago (2600 BC), the literary work "Gilgamesh Epic" tells the story of ferryman Ur Sanabi who took the king through the water of death. The ferryman is the link between the two worlds and plays a vital role. In fact, the translator himself is a "ferryman". He/she tells the reader the author's ideological realm, dreams and imagination, and brings the reader into the target language environment.

 学生时代时我就发现，中国学生都知道歌德、莎士比亚、海涅，而西方几乎没有人知道屈原、李白、苏东坡、曹雪芹，对此我感到非常震惊。尽管翻译工作在西方不被视为学术研究，没有受到高度重视，但我个人把中国文学作品，特别是名著和经典作品翻译成德文看作毕生的事业。我还在德国维藤建立了一个翻译工作坊，专门鼓励年轻一代的毕业生，为他们争取翻译项目，通常是将中国文学作品译成德语和英语，目前已经翻译出了。。。。。。。。[What translations have been published/done in your translation workshop in Germany? ]

When I was a student, I found that Chinese students all knew Goethe, Shakespeare and Heine, while almost no one in the West knew Qu Yuan, Li Bai, Su Dongpo and Cao Xueqin. I was very shocked. Although translation is not regarded as an academic research in the West and is not highly valued, I personally regard the translation of Chinese literary works, especially famous works and classic works, into German as a lifelong career. I also set up a translation workshop in Witten, Germany, to encourage the younger generation of graduates and strive for translation projects for them. Usually, Chinese literary works are translated into German and English, which have already been translated. . . . . . . .

 当然，从翻译的本质上来说，这是一项语言服务。没有这种服务，研究就无法实现。多了解中国文化，对德国文化没有坏处。而德国民众通常不懂中文，因此通过翻译获得资讯似乎是唯一方式。不过对于专业从事中国文学创作的人来说，当然建议掌握汉语能力，因为读原著永远比读译著更真实。

Of course, translation is essentially a language service. Without this service, research cannot be realized. Knowing more about Chinese culture will do no harm to German culture. German people usually don't understand Chinese, so getting information through translation seems to be the only way. However, for those who specialize in Chinese literary creation, it is of course recommended to master Chinese ability, because reading the original works is always more authentic than reading the translated works. 10. 作为世界汉学研究会会长，您组织了多场与汉学相关的国际会议，包括一年一度的世界汉学研究大会（WACS），持续向世界展示中华文化的魅力。您既是译者，又是研究者，您如何看待这两个身份之间的转换？您对从事译研结合的学者有何建议吗？

 在西方，学者的地位普遍高于译者。不过，就我而言，译者的工作还是很重要的，因为科学有赖于源头的发展（The work of the translator is nevertheless important, since science depends on the development of sources.）。最重要的是，如果没有翻译，大众就无法认识和了解外国语言与文化。因此，我既做翻译，也做学术研究，一方面是有时在翻译的过程中发现某个学术研究的选题或者已有选题再翻译中找到了一个突破点；另一方面，有时做学术研究需要阅读一些中国文学作品，但发现并没有德译本，所以干脆自己动手翻译。

In the West, the status of scholars is generally higher than that of translators. However, as far as I am concerned, the translator's work is still very important, because science depends on the development of the source. Most importantly, without translation, the public cannot know and understand foreign languages and cultures. Therefore, I do both translation and academic research; On the one hand, I sometimes find a breakthrough point in the process of translation when I find a topic of an academic research or in the re-translation of an existing topic; On the other hand, sometimes it is necessary to read some Chinese literary works for academic research, but it is found that there is no German translation, so I simply translate it myself.

 翻译批评现在在中国是比较热门的学术研究方向，拿《红楼梦》为例。我个人认为，做相关翻译批评的学者首先自己也应该是作家，有自己的代表作，或者翻译过一定的作品。此外，做翻译批评时最好将对象锁定为译本语言是母语的作品。如果一个人对自己的源语言掌握得很好，就能够分辨出字里行间的引申义和细微的差别，更好地评估选词、文体等是否得当。但可惜的是，中国红学届或者翻译学届几乎没有人具备这样的条件。

Translation criticism is now a popular academic research direction in China. Take a Dream of Red Mansions as an example. Personally, I think that scholars who do relevant translation criticism should first be writers themselves, have their own representative works, or have translated certain works. In addition, when making translation criticism, it is best to target works whose translation language is the mother tongue. If a person has a good grasp of his source language, he can distinguish the extended meaning and subtle differences between the lines, and better evaluate whether the choice of words and styles are appropriate. However, unfortunately, few people in the Chinese Redology or Translation Studies have such conditions. 我每年邀请100多位学术届同仁讲授他们各自领域的知识，主要是觉得做学问贵在终身学习。可以通过课程和会议间隙的讨论拓宽视野，有时不同领域的知识可以提供更广阔的研究视角。 Every year, I invite more than 100 academic colleagues to teach their knowledge in their respective fields, mainly because I think lifelong learning is the most important thing in learning. The horizon can be broadened through discussions between courses and conferences, and sometimes knowledge in different fields can provide a broader research perspective. 另外，我还建议做翻译的同仁一定要去原语/目标语国家生活一段时间。截至目前，我在中国生活了八年，每隔一段时间，新的表达方式都会扑面而来，每天都在学习，自然对我研究和翻译都有帮助。 In addition, I also suggest that colleagues who do translation must live in the source/target language countries for a period of time. Up to now, I have lived in China for eight years. Every once in a while, new expressions come to me and I study every day. Naturally, it is helpful for my research and translation.

11 国际汉学中心

11. 您是湖南师范大学“潇湘学者”特聘教授，并担任国际汉学中心主任。请问：该中心主要从事工作？您未来计划开展哪些项目推动中德文化交流？国际汉学研究中心是国内国学与海外汉学研究的桥梁。来自世界各地、不同背景的学者，可以依托这个平台进行交流合作。我们从香港引进了来自美国的Margaret Chu，她在2021年初刚被聘为澳门科技大学副教授。她作为中心的兼职高级研究员，负责联系各国学者，评估和审阅中心的研究成果。朱女士还负责引进了许多同仁，包括来自牛津、加州和马萨诸塞州的同仁。另外，四位来自德国的学者已经被聘为外国语学院教授，其中两名也将加盟国际汉学研究中心。来自卡尔斯鲁厄的哲学家Ole Döring和来自杜塞尔多夫的历史学家Cord Eberspächer，他曾在那里担任孔子学院院长。中心的研究员正在共同构思编写《中国研究史》，包括有一卷总论和十卷单行本，该书预计将以英文、德文和中文同时出版。除此以外，中心正在研究四大名著，特别是《红楼梦》在西方的参与史。中心还正在积极翻译中国现当代文学作品和政治文献。 The International Sinology Research Center is a bridge between domestic Sinology and overseas Sinology research. Scholars from all over the world and from different backgrounds can rely on this platform for exchanges and cooperation. We introduced Margaret Chu from the United States from Hong Kong. She was just hired as an associate professor at Macau University of Science and Technology in early 2021. As a part-time senior researcher of the Center, she is responsible for contacting scholars from all over the world to evaluate and review the research results of the Center. Ms Zhu is also responsible for bringing in many colleagues, including colleagues from Oxford, California and Massachusetts. In addition, four scholars from Germany have been hired as professors of the Foreign Languages Institute, and two of them will join the International Sinology Research Center. Ole D ö ring, a philosopher from Karlsruhe, and Cord Ebersp ä cher, a historian from D ü sseldorf, where he served as the dean of Confucius Institute. Researchers at the Center are jointly conceiving the compilation of "History of Chinese Studies", including a general book and ten singles, which is expected to be published in English, German and Chinese at the same time. In addition, the center is studying the participation history of Four Great Classical Novels, especially A Dream of Red Mansions in the West. The Center is also actively translating modern and contemporary Chinese literary works and political documents.

11. 曹雪芹和跨国文化

从跨国文化的角度看曹雪芹你有合想法？

Woesler: Cao Xueqin and even more his protagonist Jia Baoyu both are early humanists, universalists and world citizens. The Red Chamber Dreams function worldwide. The Dream is a complex showroom of diverse aspects of Chinese cultures and is the embodiment and essence of Chinese cultures, but it has also a global impact, therefore it should be honoured as “World Documentary Heritage”.

吴漠汀：曹雪芹，尤其是他的主人公贾宝玉，都是早期的人文主义者，普世主义者和世界公民。《红楼梦》具有普世价值。《红楼梦》综合展示了中国的多元文化，是中国文化的集中体现和精华，同时在全球范围内产生影响，理应列入世界记忆遗产名录。

Cao Xueqin’s message is not simply the one of “Paradise Lost”, instead he himself made the best out of his life. Although being less wealthy than when his family still enjoyed the favour of the emperor, there was a payroll system and a social net intact in Early Qing China, where he received enough income to be independent from his rich relatives, to be selective on accepting jobs, to live a relaxed life in a small house in the nature, spending time with his family and friends, follow his own interests, like reading, writing and drinking wine, making kites for the children and thinking of the disadvantaged.

曹雪芹所传达的信息并不是简单的“失乐园”，相反，他把自己的生活过得很好。虽然比起他的家族享受皇帝的宠爱，他过得没有那么富裕，但清初中国有一套薪俸制度和一张完整的社会网，他获得了足够的收入，可以独立于富贵亲戚，可以有选择性地接受工作，可以在大自然的小房子里过着悠闲的生活，可以与家人和朋友共度时光，可以追随自己的兴趣，例如读书，写作和饮酒，可以为孩子们做风筝，可以为弱势群体着想。

Cao Xueqin was fully aware of his time and China’s cultural achievements, he was familiar with the different levels of society, he was a detailed observer and skilful narrator. He may have conceptualized the ending of the novel as a discussion about the different personalities of the characters in the novel and therefore displaying his reflection about life and his psychological understanding of the diversity of human nature. He was able to grasp the “spirit of time” (Zeitgeist) and with his autobiographical experience create an eternal coming-of-age novel not just for his family, for the Qing-Chinese, for Chinese people, but for mankind.

曹雪芹对自己所处的时代和中国的文化成就了如指掌，他熟悉社会的不同层面，他是一个细致的观察者和娴熟的叙述者。因此，他在小说中对人的不同个性的理解和对小说中人物性格的多样性进行了概念化的探讨。他能够把握“时代精神”，用他的自传体经历，不仅为他的家庭，为清朝的中国人，为中国人民，而且为人类，创作了一部永恒的成人小说。

This tradition of Coming-of-age novels is also a European one, like enlightenment philosopher Voltaire’s novel Candide or Optimism《老实人》shows at the very same time (1759) in Europe. Also Voltaire’s Candide has to leave the luxurious paradise of his childhood and strives for true love, but his main learning is more pessimistic, since Voltaire wrote the novel in opposition to Leibniz, who optimistically looked to China as “the best of all worlds”. Recent research findings show that China had a much larger influence on European enlightenment philosophers and we can be sure, that also Cao Xueqin was aware of some European literary traditions.

这种成熟的传统小说也是一个欧洲人,像启蒙运动哲学家伏尔泰在欧洲同时间出版的的小说《老实人》(1759年)。伏尔泰笔下的老实人不得不离开童年的奢华天堂，为追求真爱而奋斗，但他的主要学习内容却更为悲观，因为伏尔泰的小说与莱布尼茨截然相反，莱布尼茨乐观地认为中国是“所有世界中最好的”。最近的研究发现，中国对欧洲启蒙运动哲学家的影响要大得多，我们可以肯定，曹雪芹对欧洲的一些文学传统也有所了解。

12. 《红楼梦》跟今天国内外的读者有什么关系？

Woesler: The novel is an embodiment of “Zeitgeist”.

吴漠汀：小说作为 "时代精神 "的体现。

According to Georg Lukács’ Theory of the Novel, while the Epos (like Homer’s Ilias, which like the Dream reasons the stories in the divine realm) displayed a holistic world experience, a complete, self-contained culture, the novel displays, that the modern world has become infinitely large and has lost its homely quality.

根据格奥尔格-卢卡奇的小说理论，虽然Epos（像荷马的伊利亚斯，它像梦理由神界的故事）展示了一个整体的世界经验，一个完整的，自足的文化，小说展示，现代世界已经变得无限大，已经失去了它的家的品质。

The novel as a genre is no longer documenting just one culture, but represents, with the words of Walter Benjamin, the Organon of History. So the understanding of the novel changed with Lukacs to historical-philosophically. A novel is understood as typical for its historical era, the novel embodies the spirit of the epoch (Zeitgeist).

小说作为一种文体，不再只是记录一种文化，而是用瓦尔特-本雅明的话说，代表了历史的有机体。所以，对小说的理解随着卢卡奇的改变，变成了历史哲学的理解。小说被理解为其历史时代的典型，小说体现了时代精神（Zeitgeist）。

The Red Chamber Dreams are written in front of the background of the Manchu minority having taken over the power in formerly Han-shaped Ming-China (which was a multi-ethnic and crosscultural society) and families suffering the changing favor of changing emperors, with the Cao family being fostered by Kangxi and being persecuted by Yongzheng.

《红楼梦》写的是满族少数民族在原汉字形的明中国（这是一个多民族、跨文化的社会）掌握了政权，家庭遭受换代皇帝的宠爱，曹家被康熙扶植，被雍正迫害的背景前。

While the author in his time could not criticize the system and power of emperors, in the novel he came to terms with this life by seeking the guilt for the persecution in the growing decadence of the family (engaging in Daoism, leisure, poetry-writing, arts and music instead of learning for being able to earn a living) and in himself not fulfilling the expectations as the family heir. This description of decadence of a declining family reminds us of the novels of Tschechov (and e.g. in the Buddenbrooks by Mann, including the turn to arts and music).

虽然作者在他的时代无法批判帝制和皇权，但在小说中，他为家族的日益衰败（参加道教、娱乐、诗歌、艺术和音乐活动，而不是为了谋生而学习）和自己作为家族继承人没有实现家族期望感到自责，通过这样做，他也对这种生活做妥协。这种对没落家族颓废状况的描写，让我们想起了契诃夫的小说（如曼恩的《布登布鲁克》，包括对艺术和音乐的转向）

Moreover, with the detailed description of life on all social levels in early Qing Dynasty, the Dream appears as a documentary historical novel very much like Günter Grass’ The Tin Drum 1959.

此外，《红楼梦》对清初社会各阶层生活的详细描写，与君特·格拉斯的《铁皮鼓1959》非常相似，《铁皮鼓1959》是一部纪实历史小说。

13 中德文化交流

我们非常感佩您对中华文化的热爱、对推动中德文化交流做出的突出贡献！再次感谢您接受我的访问！祝您多结学术硕果！

Wir bewundern Ihre Liebe zur chinesischen Kultur und Ihren herausragenden Beitrag zur Förderung des kulturellen Austauschs zwischen Deutschland und China! Nochmals vielen Dank für dieses Interview! Ich wünsche Ihnen viele akademische Erfolge!

Woesler: Vielen Dank! Tatsächlich sehe ich es als eine der wichtigsten Aufgaben unserer Zeit, Menschen zusammenzubringen. Viele Nationen sind stolz auf ihre Kultur. Inzwischen wissen wir, dass keine Kultur besser oder schlechter ist als eine andere. Aber es ist faszinierend, und es fördert unsere Entwicklung als Individuen und als Menschheit insgesamt, von den verschiedenen Kulturen zu wissen. Wenn sich wie ich als Deutscher in die chinesische Kultur, auf der ganzen Welt Chinesen in andere Kulturen und Angehörige anderer Kulturen in die chinesische verlieben, so führt dies zu einer Bereicherung und einem Erblühen menschlicher Kultur insgesamt. So können die Menschen das Beste, das in ihnen steckt verwirklichen: Respekt und Toleranz.

Woesler: Thank you very much! Indeed, I see it as one of the most important tasks of our time to bring people together. Many nations are proud of their culture. By now we know that no culture is better or worse than another. But it is fascinating, and it promotes our development as individuals and as humanity as a whole, to know about the different cultures. If, like me as a German, Chinese people fall in love with Chinese culture, and all over the world Chinese people fall in love with other cultures, and members of other cultures fall in love with Chinese culture, this leads to an enrichment and blossoming of human culture as a whole. In this way, people can realize the best that is within them: Respect and tolerance.

吴漠汀：非常感谢你! 的确，我认为这是我们这个时代最重要的任务之一，就是把人们团结起来。许多国家都以自己的文化为荣。现在我们知道，没有任何一种文化比另一种文化更好或更差。但它是迷人的，它能促进我们作为个人和整个人类的发展，了解不同的文化。当像我这个德国人一样，中国人爱上了中国文化，全世界的中国人爱上了其他文化，其他文化的成员爱上了中国文化，这就导致了整个人类文化的丰富和绽放。这样，人们才能实现自己内心的最佳状态。尊重和宽容。

Notes about the intercultural approach

《红楼梦》与其他世界文学作品的相似性——推荐《红楼梦》列入世界记忆遗产名录 Commonness between the Red Chamber Dreams and other World Literature Novels – Proposing the Red Chamber Dreams to the World Documentary Heritage List

吴漠汀，湖南师范大学 Martin Woesler, Hunan Normal University

Abstract

In every culture, readers associate the literature they know with new literature they read. So literature is always cumulative, it grows out of existing literature and can refer back to it. When Western readers read the Red Chamber Dreams, they foremost associate novels and other pieces of literature of their own cultural tradition with the Dreams. This has also influenced the first full translation into German. Cao Xueqin and even more his protagonist Jia Baoyu both are early humanists, universalists and world citizens. The Red Chamber Dreams function worldwide. The Dream is a complex showroom of diverse aspects of Chinese cultures and is the embodiment and essence of Chinese cultures, but it has also a global impact, therefore it should be honoured as “World Documentary Heritage”.

Key words

Western culture, reception tradition, German translation, Embodiment of Chinese cultures, global compatibility, World Documentary Heritage

摘要

在每一种文化中，读者都会把他们读到的新文学与已知文学联系起来，所以文学总是积累的，它从现有的文学中生长出来，并以已有文学为参考。西方读者在阅读《红楼梦》时，首先会把《红楼梦》与自身文化传统中的小说和其他文学作品联系起来，这也影响了首次德语全译本。曹雪芹，尤其是他的主人公贾宝玉，都是早期的人文主义者，普世主义者和世界公民。《红楼梦》具有普世价值。《红楼梦》综合展示了中国的多元文化，是中国文化的集中体现和精华，同时在全球范围内产生影响，理应列入世界记忆遗产名录。

关键词

西方文化，传统保护，德国翻译，中国文化具像化表现，全球兼容，世界遗产文献 --Weiyafei (talk) 07:10, 28 December 2020 (UTC)Wei yafei

1. Chinese Ethics

To help the poor and disadvantaged belongs to the traditional core values of Chinese culture.

When we sit in the Beijing Subway today, the loudspeaker announcement reminds us, that it is Chinese traditional ethics to give seats to the disadvantaged (老弱病残孕让座是中国传统道德). We know of Cao Xueqin, that he supported the poor and disadvantaged, and that he made kites for children.

However, when we look closer at these “Chinese Ethics”, we discover, that they are claimed also in Indian Buddhism “karuna” and in the Christian tradition of “caritas” and in almost every civilization. Therefore, we might call these values “human ethics”.

中国伦理“扶贫济困”是中国文化的传统核心价值观。当我们今天坐在北京地铁时，扬声器的公告提醒我们，让弱势群体有座位是中国传统道德。我们知道曹雪芹，他支持穷人和处境不利的人，他为孩子们制作风筝。但是，当我们仔细观察这些“中国伦理学”时，我们发现，印度佛教“ karuna”，基督教的“明爱”传统以及几乎所有文明中也都声称拥有它们。因此，我们可以将这些价值观称为“人类道德”。--Wen Xiaoyi (talk) 15:24, 29 December 2020 (UTC)

2. Compatibility Why do the Red Chamber Dreams function worldwide and have achieved world literature status even in their translations?

2. 兼容性为什么《红楼梦》在世界范围内广泛流传，甚至在翻译领域中也取得了世界文学的地位？

First of all, the Red Chamber Dreams are, like novels worldwide, a piece of entertainment literature. In comparison to the drama, in which every element is compulsory and plays its part in the overall structure, in the novel the line of action itself is simpler and not so important, most of the scenes or episodes are loosely put together and fit in the broader theme of the novel.

首先，《红楼梦》和世界小说一样，是一部娱乐文学。与戏剧中的每一个元素都是强制性的，在整体结构中起作用的戏剧相比，小说的行动路线本身更简单，也不那么重要，大部分场景或情节都松散地组合在一起，这和小说更广泛的主题相吻合。

However, the lose arrangement of episodes of the Dreams comes from the tradition of almost unconnected episodes like in the Shuihuzhuan and is a step towards the greater coherence of the episodes, the aligning into a story line and the greater concentration on fewer protagonists. Therefore, the Dreams show clearly a step towards the Western tradition of novels, maybe because of growing Western influence in Qing dynasty.

然而，《红楼梦》章回结构不连续来自于《水浒传》中几乎没有联系的章回的传统，这是朝着章回更连贯、与故事线一致以及更集中于较少主角的方向迈出的一步。因此，《红楼梦》明显向西方小说传统迈进了一步，可能是因为西方对清代的影响越来越大。

3. Impact of translator’s native culture on the translation process

3.译者的本土文化对翻译过程的影响

There are intercultural parallels between the Red Chamber Dreams and Western works of literature.

《红楼梦》和西方文学作品之间有跨国文化的相似之处。

These parallels are fundamental for the translation and were explicitly and implicitly fundamental for the German translator Martin Woesler during his translation and editorial work on the first full German translation. In the following, I will mention some of the Western novels and pieces of literature, which the Western reader of the Dreams will immediately think of.

这些相似之处是翻译的根本，也是德文译者马丁-沃斯勒在翻译和编辑第一部德文全译本时明确和隐含的根本。下面，我将提到一些西方的小说和文学作品，西方的读者读到梦会立即想到这些作品。

4. The novel as embodiment of “Zeitgeist”

4. 小说作为 "时代精神 "的体现。